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James, I wonder, do some people just like the handle on a western saw? Although I've never tried a japanese saw, the handle always looks very awkward. Why not make a western style saw with the teeth cut for the pull stroke? I've never seen this. Could it work, or not? Eric Schnittker, St. Louis
As an owner of both Japanese saws and Japanese chisels more info on Japanese tools and techniques would be great. Thanks again for the content, some of the best wood working tips on the internet.
If you're used to using a Western saw, and are transitioning to a Japanese-style saw, then positioning of the non-dominant hand when holding down pieces being sawn, usually on a saw-horse or a bench, might present more possibility of a cut - because of the direction of the teeth. A guy told me he'd cut deep into his thumb because of the unfamiliar style. Of course, this is about taking care when using any sharp tool (or maybe a blunter tool, which takes the line of least resistance).
Push saws never made any sense to me, and I couldn't take them seriously even as a kid. I remember deciding to myself that I'd invent the pull saw when I grew up, turns out that was the first type of saw!
Push saws are safer, as you're not cutting towards yourself--pull saws allow for a more natural use of human arm strength, which typically results in reduced muscle stress and finer motor skill in the movement.
Push saws allow you to use more power on a cut and get through the material much faster, allthough i would argue that, controll and accuracy of these saws are not very reliable if you are chasing millimeters!
@@luke7503 Try sawing through thick material like a log with pulling motion. Pushing gives a lot more power hence it cuts much deeper with each stroke. Allthough, in modern days, we usually do these kind of tasks with power tools or chainsaws. That being said, i think thats where the push types of saws originate. A lot of logging and ship building was done in western world!
A video on Japanese chisels would be great. While the differences in their saws and planes are apparent, its not immediately clear how their chisels differ.
The best j. chisels are laminated, a thin harder piece of steel fire welded to a larger softer iron socket. We can get Mr S. Nubs to explain better. Old plane blades and chisels made in Sheffield, also had a laminated cutting edge before steel was mass produced
I worked in trim carpentry for nearly 40 years, and whenever someone borrowed my coping saw for whatever reason, I'd get crap because the blade was 'backwards'. For quite a while I was confused, then noticed that they used the coping saw with their hand, and the saw handle above the work, and I always cut my copes with my hand/saw handle under the work. It gave me a smoother, and more accurate cut that went faster because I didn't have to look around my hand to see what I was doing. It was about 4 months later that everyone I worked with had their blades installed 'backwards'
@@thomaslee4114 I am a trim carpenter, and have been for 35 years. I tried it that way many years ago, and found that I am much more efficient coping on the push stroke. However, I rarely cope with my material laying flat. To each their own.
The beauty of your technique is that I find following the cut line with a pull stroke is complicated by the saw dust piling up in front of the blade obscuring the cut line. Pulling from below the work and steering from the "push " side above is the best of both worlds!.
Dang James, You've been cranking out high quality vids like a machine in the past few weeks/ months. Even if a few are re-takes on older videos it really drives home the quality of your channel content. Thanks, it re-lights the passion i seem to have lost over the past few years.
Hey there! I'm 24 and have been making mistakes (learning) in my small shop for around 5 years now. Your channel was one of the first I ever encountered when starting my journey and has been where I have learned at LEAST 90% of my still limited knowledge. While these videos may not have the flashiest thumbnails or follow the "Woodworking UA-cam Trends" I've found myself consistently coming back for your ability to give a comprehensive No B.S. explanation on whatever the topic is. Much thanks to you and your team for giving me the knowledge and confidence to pursue this amazing craft at such an early age, I'm so glad I did.
I always thought cutting in the push stroke was strange and challenging. Eager to try out a recently bought pull saw. Thanks for all the detailed info.
James, I agree with all your recommendations and that there's a need for both styles in most shops... But I feel like you missed the biggest difference between push and pull dynamics. I find the physics of a pull saw makes cutting easier for any work that I'm doing at chest-level or higher. Push saws are way better and easier to work with at below waist level, like if you're doing rough cuts bracing a board with your knee or hand on a short bench. So the position you like to do your work in plays a HUGE role in which saw you'd choose.
He explained it in great detail starting at 1:30. You're just saying it tends to be easier to cut through material if you use the style of saw that allows gravity to assist in the through-cut motion vs the back-cut. That's mostly anecdotal based on your personal sawing preferences. Don't you think the reason you put a piece of wood on a short bench to hold down with your knee is because you plan on grabbing a Western panel saw to plow through a rough cut? If all you had was an Eastern pull saw then you probably wouldn't set up like that. You're matching the job to the tool vs matching the tool to the job. Even though he didn't specifically say it, the assumption throughout this video is: stock is clamped in a vise and being cut at waist-height, usually while following a line. He DID use words such as "straight" "square" "precision" "easier to guide" and "better feedback." For jobs where those things are important, Eastern (Japanese) saws are simply better in almost every regard.
I agree. One addition: For sawing with Japanese saws below you: Try standing on the workpiece. With a larger Ryoba (at least 240) it works quite well for ripcuts and also for some crosscuts. Don't fall or saw into your toes though...
@@G0F15H No, there's more to it, like western saws give more control if you need to change or adjust the cut but to use that control requires more skill. While eastern saws will more easily follow the line and require less skill to get started, just harder to fix if you mess up the start of the cut. For rough cutting, western saws can be faster and there's more examples of saws that can take advantage of 2 or more people working together for logging, etc. Differences in position also denotes differences in types of woodworking, what size materials will be most likely utilized, what kind of holding systems are used, etc. So what works best can depend on a variety of factors that shouldn't be glossed over to just one is better than the other when that depends... This was a basic overview of eastern saws but the actual comparison between them and western saws are more complicated and would require a much lengthier discussion to cover it all.
My first encounter with a japanese saw was 56 years ago when my dad got orders to Atsugi Naval Air Station in Atsugi Japan. The japanese did not use power tools to construct houses back then, only manual tools and their carpentry skills were second to none. I remember being amazed at the accuracy of house construction using manual tools. They used the old 'Egg Beater' drills as well. The pull saws are my saw of choice now, I have several. Great video.
Second to none if you're American and that's all you compare with. First of all japanese house production was seriously slow and ineffective, athe joinery may be fine, but the end result still is a drafty cold uncomfortable house. Japanese house building is NOTHING to envy.. BRrrrrrr-....
From the very first time my dad put a saw in my hand when I was 4, the push stroke has made zero sense to me. The blade bends if it binds, which makes the binding worse. It just seemed so obvious to me, even then, that the saw should cut on the PULL.
LOL I always thought it was just me figuring tools are made for men with higher grip strength and upper body strength. So I’m not the only one “push saws” made no sense to. Nice to know!
My early frustrations with push-stroke American saws pushed [pun intended] me toward power tools instead of learning to use hand tools. Now nearing 70, I wish I had a lifetime of hand-tool skills built up, but I don't. 😞
I think the trick is that push saws are only intended to work a narrow bit of the wood at once. It's worth noting that in the old manual sawmills, _they did not use push saws,_ but instead old-timey two-person saws- and those saws, in turn, were _pull_ saws (just pulled from _each_ side instead of only one side) instead of push saws.
@@karenmitchell6814 When I was 7 or 8 years old, I had a much easier time with a bow saw for big cuts and a hack saw (literally a metal hacksaw, sometimes with the blade reversed) or keyhole saw for fine cuts. I couldn't use the regular saw... always thought it wasn't "good enough", needed sharpening, wrong TPI for the wood, I was not strong enough, etc. Of course I was little, so I wasn't strong enough for the inability to rip cut with a bow saw to matter. Only trouble was the blade would "dance" and... I'd need bandaids. (and I still hate my regular saw... I guess I don't know why I even use it)
My father was in the USAF and in 1959, when I was 8 years old, we lived in Japan for several years. I remember using a Ryoba saw working with my dad on projects. Years later, I purchased a Western type saw from Sears as part of my first set of tools. I hated the Western style saw, it was so much harder to control than the pull type Eastern saws I grew up with. When I found Eastern type saws in the mid 1980s, I purchased several and have used them for years. Great job on this video, and yes please add to it with the other Eastern tools you talked about.
@@tomhargreaves8820 Tom. I went to the 2nd grade at Johnson air base in 1959 and 3rd and ½ of 4th grade at Tachikawa AFB. We moved to Hickam AFB Hawaii in 1962. I loved living in Japan and have great memories of those early years. Thanks for asking. Keith
I knew that I wanted a ryoba saw, but I simply didn't realise that there are more dedicated saw types available, I want a whole set of Japanese saws to add to my western saws. I'll add them one saw at a time though, on a needs basis, naturally :) Thank you James.
I like it when you start explaining from a historical perspective, definitely helps a better understanding of the concept. I was using only Ryoba but now I'll have 2 more :) Thanks
I have long wondered about the different Japanese saws and this tutorial was spot-on! I'd love to see some more in-depth treatment for using these. Thanks!
@@daveklein2826 true, but not all video creators are as good as James at giving concise instructions. Sometimes I watch a video about something, but then I'm more confused. Vickie
I've been using Silky japanese saws for camping/outdoor work and they are SO much nicer then anything I can find in the local stores. The cut on the pull back is very nice.
I would be really interested in a follow up video on how to cut with the pull saws. I just recently got my 7” Dozuki and I think I have bad form because I did not get a straight cut went testing out some dovetails. Thanks for all the great content!
What helped me was imaging the strike line on my board continuing back into space and my hand pulling along it. A good way to practice it to strike a line across something like a 1x4, clamping another board hard to that line and just concentrate on keeping the saw moving along and perpendicular to that guide. After a while it becomes second nature.
Thanks James. As a rookie woodworker I had no idea what kind of saw I needed and what kind that I wanted. I do like the idea of learning how to cut dovetails. This video was very helpful in giving me more information about what I need and or want. Thanks for all that you do.
OMG, please do one on Japanese chisels (and cuts with the Japanese saws too, of course). I've been so curious about them, but haven't found a lot of information about about how they compare to western chisels.
Excellent and informative video. I remember when choosing my Japanese style saws being confused by the names, teeth counts and sizes and wondering what the differences were, wish I had had this video back then! Would love to see a follow up with tips and tricks and any other comparaisons videos.
A distinct advantage of the pull saws from Japan is that you can and should use the reflections in the saw of the stock being cut. These reflections precisely identify orientation between the saw and the stock in two dimensions as the cut proceeds.
On the con side, to the point of "some people prefer the pistol grip of western saws"- I live in Japan, there are plenty of pistol grip style Japanese saws over here. The one I use is in the "Gun Fighter" line. I've got a few others too. Better for rough cuts but a straight handle is much better for detail work (personal preference)
@@jeremysullivan1706 Because UA-cam wouldn't let me make an account without putting in a surname and it's what everyone calls me over here- not what I call myself. Feel free to doubt me living here though, couldn't care less.
The first saw I bought myself was a Japanese ryoba and I have loved it. With the saw being guided by the thinner kerf it's very difficult if not impossible to try and make small adjustments to your cut line as you work down a long rip cut which I would imagine would be atleast vaguely possible with a western style panel saw. I would be very interested to see a video on both joinery with the Japanese style saws and Japanese style chisels. I am looking to invest in some nicer chisels in the future and don't really know anything about the Japanese style. So that video would be very informative and helpful. Thank you
Ryoba! Man, the whole time I was watching the video, I was thinking about how "raioba" could possibly mean "two sided" Ryouba makes a lot more sense to me. Ryou meaning "both" and "ba" for "edge". (The final u is often omitted. It makes the o longer, there is no u sound.) But yeah, the pronunciation was throwing me off massively. "Ryou" is actually a single syllable. I don't think it's particularly hard to pronounce, but I guess you would never guess the pronunciation correctly if you only saw it written.
Would be great to highlight the differences between Western and Japanese WORKHOLDING and benches! So far as I've seen, the saws of each type are part of different systems! Both can produce incredible work! 👍
Excellent video as always. I work at our local Woodcraft and always had some kind of trouble with them, mainly because the only think you can read on them is the length of the blade/number of teeth. It'd be very interesting to see a video about Japanese chisels and setting the ring on the handle.
Fantastic info, James! Thanks a bunch! 😃 I have issues with both my shoulders, I had to do years of physiotherapy. So I basically can't use a western saw without getting strong pain... But with Japanese saws? I barely feel it. It's truly amazing. I never tried Japanese hand planes... They seem weird... But I would love to try as well. Who knows, right? 😊 Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Beautiful! Let us not leave out the hybrids.. like Shark Corp's pullsaw that has a pistol-style grip and replaceable blades! A great workhorse at about $27. A beginner could have the handle and three different blades for under $100.
I liked this one, James. I like my Japanese saws. The dovetail one cuts an amazingly thin kerf, so thin the coping saw I use to cut out the dovetail bottoms is too thick. My panel saws belonged to my grandfather and my wife's grandfather so I enjoy using them too.
Excellent. While giving us an introduction to Japanese styles of sawa, you have given us a refresher on other saws. By the way, I appreciate that you have revisited other subjects to share insights from what you learned. -- Each tool for its own best function.
Love my Japanese saws but as you can always learn more about the tools you own I would be very interested in tips & techniques vids. Thank you for your great work
I'm a miniaturist, mostly in 1:6 and 1:18 scales. So the furniture is small, and I usually use basswood. I figure a dozuki might be best, but what tooth count? I do ripping on a small tablesaw.
I don't necessarily find them easier to use but I do have a couple of the folding Suizan ones, really convenient if space is tight or you're on the move / traveling a lot.
would it be possible to see a comparison test between the different types of saw. Directly comparing the speed, precision, accuracy and quality of the cut made?
I’d say that comes down to the saw and he user. You can compare a less expensive saw to, say a BadAxe saw and it’s obvious which one is better. Japanese saws that are widely available are going to be from the same companies and there isn’t much comparison there. Price and presence and time on them.
@@FearsomeWarrior Yes, that's very true, but there are ways to minimise user bias, so that it becomes more of a straight test between saws. And obviously there are so many variables with different brands, makes, models, of saws, even different batches and down to the individual saw being slightly different to the single atom (being a n exaggeration). However I still believe it would be interesting for James to compare his own saws, so he gets a fair representation of the saws he uses. Furthermore sometimes it is also good to include user bias, so it can further compare which is better for the individual person. There are obviously pros and cons to testing, but overall the video idea is still interesting.
I've been using Japanese tools since the 80s. Both types, Eastern & Western have their place in any quality workshop. You never know what your next project might need. Learn to use both, and go ambidextrous too. Having a boat building background, we used to have to switch around.
As a counter example (personal experience, YMMV): I've been convinced by those arguments several years ago and got a set of those 3 saws. They are my main saws but I've been struggling. Making straight cuts has been rather difficult, so is correcting the cut when it veers off course. The line is hard to see because it's often covered with saw dust, and the cutting position can be awkward, requiring you to seriously rethink how you position your body and how you clamp your work piece. Not to mention rip cuts are pretty tiring with a ryoba, as the short length doesn't allow you the range of motion a panel saw does. I'm now in the process of getting equivalent western saws to try and see what I'm doing wrong.
Have you looked into combining the Paul Sellers "knife wall" techniques with your saws? Set up the precision cut guides with cutting gauges and marking knives, then allow the saws to do what they do, and "follow the path of least resistance". Also, check out how Wood By Wright how to start cuts across/along marked faces (whether knife walls or pencil marks), before allowing the saw to descend into the meat of the cut.
I really appreciate your intro to Japanese saws - like a great many, I had heard of them, but was thoroughly unfamiliar with them. A vid on cuts would be a great follow up. And I had never heard of Japanese chisels! I’m keen to hear what you have to say about them, too!
As a teenager in woodworking class: a newb. I definitely was put off by the tendency of saws to bend when pushing them. I was so put off by this for fear of my safety and such that I consider it a reason that I never pursued it further.
@@jelianmontgomery5679 Don't forget that fear is a self-defense mechanism tho For example: My house starts burning, i go out but i realize i've forgotten a pillow that i enjoyed sleeping on, fear would be whats stopping me from going in. Kind of the same situation here, being scared that a blade which keeps bending will break and fly off to somewhere or hit you seems pretty normal to me
My man! Obviously you know woodworking; but not every master woodworker is also a good teacher. You are both, and as a novice I REALLY appreciate your videos. Please keep them coming.
The Japanese pull saw was a life saver when I built a boat. A boat is the opposite of a cabinet. Nothing is square, nothing is plumb and a bevel is more vital than a square. Being able to site the line on two sides of a 'non square' piece of wood and making a cut that fit perfectly was magic for me. I love the pull saw but have never tried the Japanese chisels. None of my boat-building mentors used them so why would I? Looking forward to you proving that my mentors were not sufficiently open minded.
I know exactly what you are talking about and experienced exactly the same conclusions 👍. My first Japanese saw was a cheap one from Lowe’s. It still works great and I can’t imagine one of those more expensive Japanese saws working any better.
I absolutely love your delivery of content. The style in which you educate is very consumable and engaging. The info in this particular video was very informative (as usual!) and I appreciate the content you provide.
I keep finding myself trying to use my saws on the pull. I find it more natural, especially when starting a cut before the wood is working with me. I may have to give Japanese saws a try. More detailed videos would definitely be helpful for that. Are there also alternate metal saws in Japan? (I do more metalwork than wood. The wood is mostly for knife handles and the like.)
At 10:06- I thought you were going to take a slice out of the top of your thumb joint! I love Japanese pull saws. Have used the double sided for cutting door trim before new flooring for years. 15 Years ago, I spent $270 for a Hayauchi ("Silky") extension saw. pruning saw. Wonderful tool! Crazy razor sharp blade that pull cuts better than any other hand pruning saw I have tried. They sell for around $350 now and are worth every penny. Blade is still razor sharp after years of use.
When I started out as a carpenter in the 1980s in Greece all the saws available in the small village where I lived were pull saws with a pistol grip, blade about 350mm x 80mm but not as thin as Japanese saws. Some of them were made by peugot in France.
I wonder if they could be obtained in the US. It seems like there are not a lot of options of that sort here. I like the idea of a different style of pull saw in that context.
Hiya Stumpy, yes please on the "More Japanese tool videos, please." This video was great as always, informative but not pushy, in fact, perfect balance. thank you. Stay safe, Steve...
Dozuki is definitely my favourite. And I’d love to see a video on Japanese planes. I’m sure I watched a video a while about about traditional Japanese planes having a hard body and a soft wedge or vice versa. I don’t mean new traditional style. I’m referring to planes from years ago. Is this a thing or am I imagining it?
Another home run, James. You've packed more useful information about Japanese style saws into one video than I have ever seen in one place. While I have been using a Japanese saw for decades to flush trim plugs over countersunk screws, etc., I never had the big picture, which you presented. Many thanks.
Great video as always! I have a few Japanese saws and I love them, I only wish I opted for a bigger ryoba, mine is about 7.5”. I would love to see a video about Japanese chisels and planes!
Hi James, The comfort and fatigue advantage you mention is because the pull stroke uses the posterior chain, which means all the large muscles in your bank (lats and traps) and the biceps, while the push stroke uses the smaller chest muscles (pecs) and the triceps (which, while larger than the biceps, are mechanically disadvantaged by the structure of the elbow).
I would love to see more videos on japanese saws, chisels, and other less common eastern style tools. I mostly use power tools but have a few japanese saws and a set of chisels that I really like. The japanese saws are affordable and to me, much easier to use than western saws. I picked up a lee valley rip saw recently for about a hundred bucks, with the assumption that this would be better quality thant I am used to as I had only used cheap western saws in the past, but found it harder to use than my japanese saws which cost about 30 bucks. Specifically, with the lee valley saw it is hard to get a cut started (while very easily with my japanese saws) and even harder to get started on a precise line. Though it does cut significantly faster - when it gets going of course. That's not to say the lee valley is a bad saw - the build quality is better and I probably just need more time with it. But the japanese saws cut more accurately and with less effort.
Coming back to woodwork after a very long absence I had problems with cutting straight and the blade jamming using my old western style saws. It took me a while to work out that it was an old injury which caused my wrist to flex and twist the blade on the forward stroke. Cutting on the pull stroke using a Japanese saw actually pulls my wrist into line and keeps my cuts straight.
I learnt a bit of jewellery and silversmithing and we were taught to cut on the pull stroke for the exact reasons you state here - really fine control and feel.
Once again, you prove yourself to be great teacher: a lot of good information, comprehensively and objectively delivered, without unnecessary embellishment. You are our own Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Ever since I was a kid and first used a push saw, I thought it was an uncomfortable, inefficient, unwieldy device. The japanese style pull saws with the in-line handle (vs the perpendicular grip of the push saw ) just seems more intuitive and efficient to me.
Yes, please do a video about Japanese saws and chisels. I have the double edged version and love it. I bought it for doing flush cuts but ended up using it for all of my hand-sawing. I didn’t know there was other versions of the saws until now. I have never heard of Japanese chisels so I would love to see that video too.
I still remember very well my confusion when first trying a Japanese saw. Now I love them for the exact reasons James explained. I even cut PVC cable trunks with them due to the much cleaner results.
My brother got me a Japanese saw about 20 years ago. It's been the first saw I reach for when I have to cut something by hand ever since. It came with a handle and two blades. It never occurred to me that the blades might be different until now. I'll need to take a closer look at them now. Thanks for the helpful info!
Are there any pistol-grip style Japanese saws? That seems like it would sell well in America, and it might be more comfortable than the straight handle. But I’m not sure if it would affect precision 🤔
i dont know if it would be particularly comfortable or precise to cut on the pull with a pistol grip, it seems much more ergonomic for pushing. but i could be wrong, i dont really know.
The first pull saw I ever used had a pistol grip. It was made by Tajima, a JPR300/K1 I believe. Very comfortable to use for me, no problems to adapt to the different motion.
@@m.a.6478 Ok, knowing that, I'm betting it's because the blades are disposable. making them thick(tall?) Enough for a pistol grip is a waste of steel.
While this does cover lots of great information I do want to put a counterpoint to some opinions. "Ease of Use" is much easier with western because: body mechanics of use, hand fatigue from grip needed with straight handle (ergonomics), speed of cut (benefit of body mechanics), and steerability mid cut (correcting to the line) being a few. Most of this comes from push saws were used more with standing benches and pulls with sitting benches so the body is used differently hence the wider variety of lengths in push saws as some use only the arm others use the whole body. One thing not mentioned about the "hardened teeth" is that in some of the American native species (red and white oak come to mind) the teeth can snap in the board as they go through open cells (pores). This is a modern attribute/detraction as teeth weren't always hardened so it wasn't a problem when they would cut stuff like teak. While loosing a tooth or ten isn't a big deal to the performance of the saw the metal shards left in board can wreak havoc later down the road.
A counter counterpoint; the pull saws require much less effort to use as compared to the western saw, so you don't need to get your whole body into it. Most of the time when I'm using a pull saw, I only hold it with a couple fingers and let it flow. There's no need to grip it and force it through a cut.
The tendency to brake teeth was mentioned among the cons. As for comfort, it depends on what you are used to. We develop muscles based on what we do the most. I have experienced this many times in life, being able to easily do something a much larger person struggled with, and vise-versa. If you use Western saws every day, you will find them more comfortable. There is no right or wrong answer here.
@@StumpyNubs It's all opinion. As said, no right or wrong just thought a counterpoint was valid. I started with pull saws and used them for years. I find you have to grip straight handles (even push) but pistol grips "sit" with very little grip required hence no carpal tunnel issues for me with them. Sorry, I watched whole video while packing and must of missed the breakage part.
Thank you for this! I’ve just started using a ryoba saw (auto-correct wanted to call it a “rumba” saw) that a friend gave me several months ago. I didn’t quite know what to do with it, though greatly appreciated the thoughtfulness. Right away I noticed how easy it is to follow a line and that not fighting the saw is critical. I discovered one set of teeth cut better crosscutting and the other ripping. Now I know why. Now I want to get the smaller dozuki and try it on some dovetails! (Just ordered it from your link 👍)
Wow, lots of information. Gonna have to watch again. Especially your last few minutes on what saw for what cut and number of teeth, etc. Thanks. Great video
Just an elderly knuckelhead here, who loves handsaws. You did an excellent job in 13 min. with regard to the title of the video. Content and videography - congrats. I remember dropping out of college in 1980 and selling my car to buy woodworking tools. I bought a ryoba 270 mm "Tama Kitsune" brand, or "Jade Fox" for $27.00 - just saw the receipt the other day. It did not cut straight. I wanted to make a rip cut while working at a furniture repair shoppe, and the Disston rip saw wouldn't cut straight either. Cut well shy of the line, and chiseled the rest. When a Rosewood chair came in months later, I finally shelled out $125 for a weekend workshop at "The Lutherier" in Saugerties NY. I got a dozuki made by Shindo. Robert Meadow had setup and sharpened --- "Hon Metate" which is what happens in Japan when you buy a saw. That way, it's custom done, and you take it back to the same dealer when it's dull, or rather _not sharp_ . Then he will use the same brand of file, which is easier than changing to another file brand. Also, several months later, he taught me how to make the blade flat and straight and non twisted, how to set teeth, and I got eventually more saws ect. Once I had the Disston straight, flat, set, and sharp, It cut great, and could get in some places a ryoba or kataba couldn't. Point being Japanese, American, German, English, and Chinese saws all are a joy to use --- if they are sharp and flat and evenly set. And a real frustrating job if not. That's what they all have in common, and here's the thing --- I went for 6 years thinking "I must be doing something wrong with my arm, or body, it don't work because no one ever taught me how to saw" No, as it turned out, the rip Disston was sharp, but it had a slight curve to the blade. same with the Tama Kitsune, except it also had some cup. Also at that time, disposable blades from Japan were not all flat. Some fit loose in the handle. They are better now, so I'm not dissing them, but a real Shindo or Chuyemon, or Miyano Tetsunoke, or Mitsukawa, or even Nakaya leave them in the dust --- after Hon Metate. OTOH, good luck finding good files. Why?, because disposable blade saws did kill the traditional saw makers, and the metate, and the file makers. I guess for most people Western technology is -- certainly from the corporate thought process and value system -- far superior to the traditional artisans aesthetics. Personally, I'm glad I spent my time here on Earth questing for Beauty, Truth, and Human scale goals. To all you knuckleheads who love your handtools and working with woods -- which is the great Master to those who want to learn from it --- 3 cheers ! Give it your full focus and attention, and you might see it is full of Ki, it is not just dead material, you might open your heart to it and have it opened even more.
Good video, James. I started with Japanese saws for the typical beginner reasons but stayed with them because the precision and ease of use. My one hold out is my large western rip saw which I use for breaking down large stock. My next purchase will be a large ryoba which i expect to use for that purpose. One advantage you did not mention for Japanese saws is for resawing. and cutting veneers. Forget the expense and setup and use of a bandsaw - a kataba or ryoba does a beautiful job and is a joy to use..
I recently bought an Irwin Marples Dozuki. I really enjoy using it but I wish it had a replaceable blade. Thanks for the information and the recommendations.
I bought myself a ryoba for Christmas one year ahead of cutting big mortise and tenons for my workbench. It was super-accurate straight away, and the bonus was I didn’t pick up a circular saw for another year after that. By the time the circular saw is plugged in and straight edge aligned and offset, the ryoba has finished. AND it doesn’t have to stop at children's bedtimes…
great coverage "Stumpy", a point of cross over with saws is all the old Log saws due to their length as you know were all pull saws, so a mix in the family but not a consideration for the home woodworker... I couldn't imagine trying to rip a panel with a 10' saw with 1 tooth per inch... Keep up the great spread of content Mate!
I have been using a Ryoba a lot over the past year or so and it’s been great. I will soon add on to my Eastern saw collection and look forward to more videos that will help me convince my wife of their value!
Good topic, definitely going to look up the dealer you mentioned. I prefer the look and feel of western saws, but the versatility, performance, and price point of Japanese saws has led me to buy several ryoba in different sizes. I look forward to trying a dozuki next after seeing your video
I don't do woodwork, I'm not sure how this ended up in my mentions, but I do a lot of backwoods camping. I have a fold out saw that cuts on the pull and it's an absolute game changer for quickly processing a dead tree for fire wood. I don't think I'll go back to a push saw ever again.
Excellent video, as ever! I have been fortunate enough to visit Japan regularly - the last two plus years aside - and have always picked up a few woodworking toys whilst there. I have been using these exceptional saws for over a decade now, and like you, prefer the single blade version. On my first few visits, I picked up a couple of packs of replacement blades for each, but soon realized that they stay sharp for a very long time. The advantage of buying them in Japan, obviously, is the cost. You can pick up a decent Razor Saw for around £20 Sterling, and replacement blades for less than half that. Of course, as you state, there are much more expensive versions, but as a carpenter, I find these more than adequate. I have always enjoyed your content, and would greatly appreciate future tutorials covering both Japanese saws and chisels. Thanks for taking the time to share your wealth of knowledge.
I've used a ryoba saw for years for cutting balsa and basswood for model aircraft. The pull stroke makes starting the cut much less damaging in extremely soft woods like balsa and also reduces tear-out at the end of the cut. The thin kerf lessens waste and the sawdust is much finer.
After watching this, I used my CHEAP Harbor Freight pull saw yesterday to notch some 1x4 pine for trimming around a beam in my new shed. WOW. That made the job easier, more accurate and left me with only a small portion to remove with my Multi-Tool. I will have to invest in some higher quality saws for my shop - Thanks for all the tips & tricks!
Thanks for the comprehensive info. Much I don't see much talk about. I would love a follow up focusing on how to make cuts as I only really know what I do for western style saws so curious to see what the differences are. Would love a chisel video; especially talking about when it's time to and how to move the hard metal as you've sharpened it many many times and the laminate line is getting skinny.
I bought a ryoba and a dozuki recently and I'm so glad I did. You get so much more cutting for the same muscle input. The handles are much more ergonomic too. It just kind of flows in a straight line with your arm, so the effort of holding it is spread out more. Not so concentrated in your hand and wrist. And making a good cut isn't so dependent on keeping your wrist straight. It's more like the blade is part of your arm. Technique is important though. The first time I used the ryoba I started too aggressively and bent a tooth. It wasn't too bad though and I was able to bend it back. They were both like $40 on Amazon and made in Japan. Definitely worth it.
I would like to suggest a very useful saw, especially in the field. Silky makes a folding "pruning saw" (Gomboy) that is great to fold with the blade protected by the handle and keep in your back pocket (or in your tool box). I use these saws to cut off pegs in timber frame construction and cutting trim on a roof without the need to run an extension cord for a power saw. I often use them in the shop, as well. Cuts are clean and the blade rarely scratches the adjacent surface when cutting pegs flush on a finished timber. Blades are available with very fine or aggressive teeth.
James, I, for one, would love to see more on the use of Eastern style saws and chisels. The learning curve you mentioned, I was unaware of, until I purchased my first rotation. Kinked that sucker real fast.
I found that a Dozuki can bend in the kerf cutting dovetails. Using western dovetail saws, you can relax for a straight cut after going about a quarter inch.
I like the pull action of ryoba saws but it took a while to get comfortable with the grip. A few things that I find challenging; hard to steer to correct drift and the kerf gets clogged when working on dense woods like ironbark and oily woods like spotted gum.
Just bought a couple Japanese saws for the first time and I love them. Once I learned the technique, I was making very precise cuts that looked much better than I could have done with one of my western saws.
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Please do a follow up on cutting techniques using these saws. I for one would find it very valuable.
James,
I wonder, do some people just like the handle on a western saw? Although I've never tried a japanese saw, the handle always looks very awkward. Why not make a western style saw with the teeth cut for the pull stroke?
I've never seen this. Could it work, or not?
Eric Schnittker, St. Louis
Hearing ryoba the first time, I thought that might have been a mispronunciation of one of the tool brands carried at Home Depot - Ryobi.
Great video. A proper tecchnique use follow up would be great. Keep up the good work
I would like a pull saw with a western handle.
As an owner of both Japanese saws and Japanese chisels more info on Japanese tools and techniques would be great. Thanks again for the content, some of the best wood working tips on the internet.
Intriguing. I'd love to see a video on Japenese chisels. Haven't seen much about them. I'm sold on Japanese saws, though.
I second this motion
If you're used to using a Western saw, and are transitioning to a Japanese-style saw, then positioning of the non-dominant hand when holding down pieces being sawn, usually on a saw-horse or a bench, might present more possibility of a cut - because of the direction of the teeth. A guy told me he'd cut deep into his thumb because of the unfamiliar style. Of course, this is about taking care when using any sharp tool (or maybe a blunter tool, which takes the line of least resistance).
I’d be interested in a video on the Japanese chisels also.
Why don’t you make some videos?
Push saws never made any sense to me, and I couldn't take them seriously even as a kid. I remember deciding to myself that I'd invent the pull saw when I grew up, turns out that was the first type of saw!
Had a similar experience. Push saws make no sense to me
Push saws are safer, as you're not cutting towards yourself--pull saws allow for a more natural use of human arm strength, which typically results in reduced muscle stress and finer motor skill in the movement.
Push saws allow you to use more power on a cut and get through the material much faster, allthough i would argue that, controll and accuracy of these saws are not very reliable if you are chasing millimeters!
@@rockmcdwayne1710 I feel like in reality for newer users especially you slow down with push because you can’t cut straight
@@luke7503 Try sawing through thick material like a log with pulling motion. Pushing gives a lot more power hence it cuts much deeper with each stroke. Allthough, in modern days, we usually do these kind of tasks with power tools or chainsaws.
That being said, i think thats where the push types of saws originate. A lot of logging and ship building was done in western world!
A video on Japanese chisels would be great. While the differences in their saws and planes are apparent, its not immediately clear how their chisels differ.
The best j. chisels are laminated, a thin harder piece of steel fire welded to a larger softer iron socket. We can get Mr S. Nubs to explain better. Old plane blades and chisels made in Sheffield, also had a laminated cutting edge before steel was mass produced
Obviously, it's just like the saws: Japanese chisels cut on the pull, rather than the push.
I'd also love a video on Japanese planes
@@ibalrog what ?
You are joking, surely !
@@ibalrog 😂😂😂
I worked in trim carpentry for nearly 40 years, and whenever someone borrowed my coping saw for whatever reason, I'd get crap because the blade was 'backwards'. For quite a while I was confused, then noticed that they used the coping saw with their hand, and the saw handle above the work, and I always cut my copes with my hand/saw handle under the work. It gave me a smoother, and more accurate cut that went faster because I didn't have to look around my hand to see what I was doing. It was about 4 months later that everyone I worked with had their blades installed 'backwards'
I am in trim carpentry now, and that is how I do it. I want to see my cut, not my hand.
@@thomaslee4114 I am a trim carpenter, and have been for 35 years. I tried it that way many years ago, and found that I am much more efficient coping on the push stroke. However, I rarely cope with my material laying flat. To each their own.
The beauty of your technique is that I find following the cut line with a pull stroke is complicated by the saw dust piling up in front of the blade obscuring the cut line. Pulling from below the work and steering from the "push " side above is the best of both worlds!.
Dang James,
You've been cranking out high quality vids like a machine in the past few weeks/ months.
Even if a few are re-takes on older videos it really drives home the quality of your channel content.
Thanks, it re-lights the passion i seem to have lost over the past few years.
I actually like the re-takes, it's cool to see how much you've learned even though past / young you knew more than I'll ever know
I appreciate the free masterclasses on woodworking you have been giving lately. Thank you.
Hey there! I'm 24 and have been making mistakes (learning) in my small shop for around 5 years now. Your channel was one of the first I ever encountered when starting my journey and has been where I have learned at LEAST 90% of my still limited knowledge.
While these videos may not have the flashiest thumbnails or follow the "Woodworking UA-cam Trends" I've found myself consistently coming back for your ability to give a comprehensive No B.S. explanation on whatever the topic is. Much thanks to you and your team for giving me the knowledge and confidence to pursue this amazing craft at such an early age, I'm so glad I did.
I always thought cutting in the push stroke was strange and challenging. Eager to try out a recently bought pull saw. Thanks for all the detailed info.
James, I agree with all your recommendations and that there's a need for both styles in most shops... But I feel like you missed the biggest difference between push and pull dynamics. I find the physics of a pull saw makes cutting easier for any work that I'm doing at chest-level or higher. Push saws are way better and easier to work with at below waist level, like if you're doing rough cuts bracing a board with your knee or hand on a short bench. So the position you like to do your work in plays a HUGE role in which saw you'd choose.
Agreed
He explained it in great detail starting at 1:30. You're just saying it tends to be easier to cut through material if you use the style of saw that allows gravity to assist in the through-cut motion vs the back-cut. That's mostly anecdotal based on your personal sawing preferences. Don't you think the reason you put a piece of wood on a short bench to hold down with your knee is because you plan on grabbing a Western panel saw to plow through a rough cut? If all you had was an Eastern pull saw then you probably wouldn't set up like that. You're matching the job to the tool vs matching the tool to the job.
Even though he didn't specifically say it, the assumption throughout this video is: stock is clamped in a vise and being cut at waist-height, usually while following a line. He DID use words such as "straight" "square" "precision" "easier to guide" and "better feedback." For jobs where those things are important, Eastern (Japanese) saws are simply better in almost every regard.
I agree. One addition: For sawing with Japanese saws below you: Try standing on the workpiece. With a larger Ryoba (at least 240) it works quite well for ripcuts and also for some crosscuts. Don't fall or saw into your toes though...
@@G0F15H No, there's more to it, like western saws give more control if you need to change or adjust the cut but to use that control requires more skill. While eastern saws will more easily follow the line and require less skill to get started, just harder to fix if you mess up the start of the cut.
For rough cutting, western saws can be faster and there's more examples of saws that can take advantage of 2 or more people working together for logging, etc.
Differences in position also denotes differences in types of woodworking, what size materials will be most likely utilized, what kind of holding systems are used, etc. So what works best can depend on a variety of factors that shouldn't be glossed over to just one is better than the other when that depends...
This was a basic overview of eastern saws but the actual comparison between them and western saws are more complicated and would require a much lengthier discussion to cover it all.
Traditionally nokogiri are used with material on low saw horses. So you're standing above using your foot to hold material down.
My first encounter with a japanese saw was 56 years ago when my dad got orders to Atsugi Naval Air Station in Atsugi Japan. The japanese did not use power tools to construct houses back then, only manual tools and their carpentry skills were second to none. I remember being amazed at the accuracy of house construction using manual tools. They used the old 'Egg Beater' drills as well. The pull saws are my saw of choice now, I have several. Great video.
Second to none if you're American and that's all you compare with. First of all japanese house production was seriously slow and ineffective, athe joinery may be fine, but the end result still is a drafty cold uncomfortable house. Japanese house building is NOTHING to envy.. BRrrrrrr-....
From the very first time my dad put a saw in my hand when I was 4, the push stroke has made zero sense to me. The blade bends if it binds, which makes the binding worse. It just seemed so obvious to me, even then, that the saw should cut on the PULL.
Yep. Western saws = pushing a rope. While I grew up with them (as my dad and granddad also did), now I know better. :)
LOL I always thought it was just me figuring tools are made for men with higher grip strength and upper body strength. So I’m not the only one “push saws” made no sense to. Nice to know!
My early frustrations with push-stroke American saws pushed [pun intended] me toward power tools instead of learning to use hand tools. Now nearing 70, I wish I had a lifetime of hand-tool skills built up, but I don't. 😞
I think the trick is that push saws are only intended to work a narrow bit of the wood at once. It's worth noting that in the old manual sawmills, _they did not use push saws,_ but instead old-timey two-person saws- and those saws, in turn, were _pull_ saws (just pulled from _each_ side instead of only one side) instead of push saws.
@@karenmitchell6814 When I was 7 or 8 years old, I had a much easier time with a bow saw for big cuts and a hack saw (literally a metal hacksaw, sometimes with the blade reversed) or keyhole saw for fine cuts. I couldn't use the regular saw... always thought it wasn't "good enough", needed sharpening, wrong TPI for the wood, I was not strong enough, etc. Of course I was little, so I wasn't strong enough for the inability to rip cut with a bow saw to matter. Only trouble was the blade would "dance" and... I'd need bandaids. (and I still hate my regular saw... I guess I don't know why I even use it)
My father was in the USAF and in 1959, when I was 8 years old, we lived in Japan for several years. I remember using a Ryoba saw working with my dad on projects. Years later, I purchased a Western type saw from Sears as part of my first set of tools. I hated the Western style saw, it was so much harder to control than the pull type Eastern saws I grew up with. When I found Eastern type saws in the mid 1980s, I purchased several and have used them for years. Great job on this video, and yes please add to it with the other Eastern tools you talked about.
Off topic, but you didn't happen to go to Yoyogi School in Washington Heights in Tokyo, did you? I was there in eighth grade in 1958. :>)
@@tomhargreaves8820 Tom.
I went to the 2nd grade at Johnson air base in 1959 and 3rd and ½ of 4th grade at Tachikawa AFB. We moved to Hickam AFB Hawaii in 1962. I loved living in Japan and have great memories of those early years. Thanks for asking.
Keith
I knew that I wanted a ryoba saw, but I simply didn't realise that there are more dedicated saw types available, I want a whole set of Japanese saws to add to my western saws. I'll add them one saw at a time though, on a needs basis, naturally :)
Thank you James.
I like it when you start explaining from a historical perspective, definitely helps a better understanding of the concept.
I was using only Ryoba but now I'll have 2 more :) Thanks
I have long wondered about the different Japanese saws and this tutorial was spot-on! I'd love to see some more in-depth treatment for using these. Thanks!
@@daveklein2826 true, but not all video creators are as good as James at giving concise instructions. Sometimes I watch a video about something, but then I'm more confused. Vickie
I've been using Silky japanese saws for camping/outdoor work and they are SO much nicer then anything I can find in the local stores. The cut on the pull back is very nice.
The educational content on this channel is head and shoulders above most others. So well laid out and easy to absorb. Thank you.
I would be really interested in a follow up video on how to cut with the pull saws. I just recently got my 7” Dozuki and I think I have bad form because I did not get a straight cut went testing out some dovetails. Thanks for all the great content!
Practically everybody with first Japanese saw needs do one thing: learn how do it. It's hard to unlearn the habit of pushing on a saw ... :)
What helped me was imaging the strike line on my board continuing back into space and my hand pulling along it. A good way to practice it to strike a line across something like a 1x4, clamping another board hard to that line and just concentrate on keeping the saw moving along and perpendicular to that guide. After a while it becomes second nature.
Thanks James. As a rookie woodworker I had no idea what kind of saw I needed and what kind that I wanted. I do like the idea of learning how to cut dovetails. This video was very helpful in giving me more information about what I need and or want. Thanks for all that you do.
OMG, please do one on Japanese chisels (and cuts with the Japanese saws too, of course). I've been so curious about them, but haven't found a lot of information about about how they compare to western chisels.
What about the planes?
@@RjWolf3000 just turn yours up side down and it becomes a pulling one.
Excellent and informative video. I remember when choosing my Japanese style saws being confused by the names, teeth counts and sizes and wondering what the differences were, wish I had had this video back then! Would love to see a follow up with tips and tricks and any other comparaisons videos.
Great, informative post. Good analogies and descriptions. Thanks again Professor Nubs.
A distinct advantage of the pull saws from Japan is that you can and should use the reflections in the saw of the stock being cut. These reflections precisely identify orientation between the saw and the stock in two dimensions as the cut proceeds.
Valid comment but I have found that there are some occasions (eg some oblique cuts) where the reflection can be a distraction.
On the con side, to the point of "some people prefer the pistol grip of western saws"- I live in Japan, there are plenty of pistol grip style Japanese saws over here. The one I use is in the "Gun Fighter" line. I've got a few others too. Better for rough cuts but a straight handle is much better for detail work (personal preference)
Thanks for this.
@@mikecurtin9831 Sure thing!
Pistol grip is better for push saws due to wrist strength. It would work fine for pull saws too but not needed.
Why do you call yourself “sensei”? If you live in Japan, you know that’s not right.
@@jeremysullivan1706 Because UA-cam wouldn't let me make an account without putting in a surname and it's what everyone calls me over here- not what I call myself. Feel free to doubt me living here though, couldn't care less.
The first saw I bought myself was a Japanese ryoba and I have loved it. With the saw being guided by the thinner kerf it's very difficult if not impossible to try and make small adjustments to your cut line as you work down a long rip cut which I would imagine would be atleast vaguely possible with a western style panel saw. I would be very interested to see a video on both joinery with the Japanese style saws and Japanese style chisels. I am looking to invest in some nicer chisels in the future and don't really know anything about the Japanese style. So that video would be very informative and helpful. Thank you
Ryoba! Man, the whole time I was watching the video, I was thinking about how "raioba" could possibly mean "two sided"
Ryouba makes a lot more sense to me. Ryou meaning "both" and "ba" for "edge". (The final u is often omitted. It makes the o longer, there is no u sound.)
But yeah, the pronunciation was throwing me off massively. "Ryou" is actually a single syllable. I don't think it's particularly hard to pronounce, but I guess you would never guess the pronunciation correctly if you only saw it written.
Would be great to highlight the differences between Western and Japanese WORKHOLDING and benches! So far as I've seen, the saws of each type are part of different systems! Both can produce incredible work! 👍
Excellent video as always. I work at our local Woodcraft and always had some kind of trouble with them, mainly because the only think you can read on them is the length of the blade/number of teeth. It'd be very interesting to see a video about Japanese chisels and setting the ring on the handle.
Fantastic info, James! Thanks a bunch! 😃
I have issues with both my shoulders, I had to do years of physiotherapy. So I basically can't use a western saw without getting strong pain... But with Japanese saws? I barely feel it. It's truly amazing.
I never tried Japanese hand planes... They seem weird... But I would love to try as well. Who knows, right? 😊
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
The rear wheel drive/front wheel drive comparison alone explains the whole difference for me. Thank you!
Beautiful!
Let us not leave out the hybrids.. like Shark Corp's pullsaw that has a pistol-style grip and replaceable blades! A great workhorse at about $27. A beginner could have the handle and three different blades for under $100.
I personally like the Vaughan brand japanese style saws for the same reason
I liked this one, James. I like my Japanese saws. The dovetail one cuts an amazingly thin kerf, so thin the coping saw I use to cut out the dovetail bottoms is too thick. My panel saws belonged to my grandfather and my wife's grandfather so I enjoy using them too.
I would appreciate videos on both the saw technique and a similar comparison video for eastern vs western chisels.
Excellent. While giving us an introduction to Japanese styles of sawa, you have given us a refresher on other saws. By the way, I appreciate that you have revisited other subjects to share insights from what you learned. -- Each tool for its own best function.
Love my Japanese saws but as you can always learn more about the tools you own I would be very interested in tips & techniques vids. Thank you for your great work
I'm a miniaturist, mostly in 1:6 and 1:18 scales. So the furniture is small, and I usually use basswood. I figure a dozuki might be best, but what tooth count? I do ripping on a small tablesaw.
I have almost entirely switched to Japanese style pull saws. Mostly for their accuracy, but also the kerf size and I just find them easier to use.
I don't necessarily find them easier to use but I do have a couple of the folding Suizan ones, really convenient if space is tight or you're on the move / traveling a lot.
A follow-up on Japanese tools, and maybe even a starter video on Japanese joinery, would be great. Thanks for everything to date.
would it be possible to see a comparison test between the different types of saw. Directly comparing the speed, precision, accuracy and quality of the cut made?
I’d say that comes down to the saw and he user. You can compare a less expensive saw to, say a BadAxe saw and it’s obvious which one is better. Japanese saws that are widely available are going to be from the same companies and there isn’t much comparison there. Price and presence and time on them.
@@FearsomeWarrior Yes, that's very true, but there are ways to minimise user bias, so that it becomes more of a straight test between saws. And obviously there are so many variables with different brands, makes, models, of saws, even different batches and down to the individual saw being slightly different to the single atom (being a n exaggeration). However I still believe it would be interesting for James to compare his own saws, so he gets a fair representation of the saws he uses. Furthermore sometimes it is also good to include user bias, so it can further compare which is better for the individual person. There are obviously pros and cons to testing, but overall the video idea is still interesting.
I just ordered 2 saws with your links. I wanted the 3rd but it appears sold out at the moment. Thanks again..Very useful info.
I've been using Japanese tools since the 80s. Both types, Eastern & Western have their place in any quality workshop. You never know what your next project might need. Learn to use both, and go ambidextrous too. Having a boat building background, we used to have to switch around.
As a counter example (personal experience, YMMV): I've been convinced by those arguments several years ago and got a set of those 3 saws. They are my main saws but I've been struggling. Making straight cuts has been rather difficult, so is correcting the cut when it veers off course. The line is hard to see because it's often covered with saw dust, and the cutting position can be awkward, requiring you to seriously rethink how you position your body and how you clamp your work piece. Not to mention rip cuts are pretty tiring with a ryoba, as the short length doesn't allow you the range of motion a panel saw does.
I'm now in the process of getting equivalent western saws to try and see what I'm doing wrong.
Have you looked into combining the Paul Sellers "knife wall" techniques with your saws? Set up the precision cut guides with cutting gauges and marking knives, then allow the saws to do what they do, and "follow the path of least resistance".
Also, check out how Wood By Wright how to start cuts across/along marked faces (whether knife walls or pencil marks), before allowing the saw to descend into the meat of the cut.
I really appreciate your intro to Japanese saws - like a great many, I had heard of them, but was thoroughly unfamiliar with them. A vid on cuts would be a great follow up. And I had never heard of Japanese chisels! I’m keen to hear what you have to say about them, too!
As a teenager in woodworking class: a newb. I definitely was put off by the tendency of saws to bend when pushing them. I was so put off by this for fear of my safety and such that I consider it a reason that I never pursued it further.
Gotta face your fears. Doing something or not doing something simply because of fear is not a good reason.
@@jelianmontgomery5679 Don't forget that fear is a self-defense mechanism tho
For example: My house starts burning, i go out but i realize i've forgotten a pillow that i enjoyed sleeping on, fear would be whats stopping me from going in.
Kind of the same situation here, being scared that a blade which keeps bending will break and fly off to somewhere or hit you seems pretty normal to me
@@jelianmontgomery5679 You only have ten fingers. :P
My man! Obviously you know woodworking; but not every master woodworker is also a good teacher.
You are both, and as a novice I REALLY appreciate your videos. Please keep them coming.
The Japanese pull saw was a life saver when I built a boat. A boat is the opposite of a cabinet. Nothing is square, nothing is plumb and a bevel is more vital than a square. Being able to site the line on two sides of a 'non square' piece of wood and making a cut that fit perfectly was magic for me. I love the pull saw but have never tried the Japanese chisels. None of my boat-building mentors used them so why would I? Looking forward to you proving that my mentors were not sufficiently open minded.
I know exactly what you are talking about and experienced exactly the same conclusions 👍. My first Japanese saw was a cheap one from Lowe’s. It still works great and I can’t imagine one of those more expensive Japanese saws working any better.
I absolutely love your delivery of content. The style in which you educate is very consumable and engaging. The info in this particular video was very informative (as usual!) and I appreciate the content you provide.
I keep finding myself trying to use my saws on the pull. I find it more natural, especially when starting a cut before the wood is working with me. I may have to give Japanese saws a try. More detailed videos would definitely be helpful for that.
Are there also alternate metal saws in Japan? (I do more metalwork than wood. The wood is mostly for knife handles and the like.)
At 10:06- I thought you were going to take a slice out of the top of your thumb joint! I love Japanese pull saws. Have used the double sided for cutting door trim before new flooring for years. 15 Years ago, I spent $270 for a Hayauchi ("Silky") extension saw. pruning saw. Wonderful tool! Crazy razor sharp blade that pull cuts better than any other hand pruning saw I have tried. They sell for around $350 now and are worth every penny. Blade is still razor sharp after years of use.
When I started out as a carpenter in the 1980s in Greece all the saws available in the small village where I lived were pull saws with a pistol grip, blade about 350mm x 80mm but not as thin as Japanese saws. Some of them were made by peugot in France.
I wonder if they could be obtained in the US. It seems like there are not a lot of options of that sort here. I like the idea of a different style of pull saw in that context.
Hiya Stumpy, yes please on the "More Japanese tool videos, please." This video was great as always, informative but not pushy, in fact, perfect balance. thank you. Stay safe, Steve...
Dozuki is definitely my favourite. And I’d love to see a video on Japanese planes. I’m sure I watched a video a while about about traditional Japanese planes having a hard body and a soft wedge or vice versa. I don’t mean new traditional style. I’m referring to planes from years ago. Is this a thing or am I imagining it?
Another home run, James. You've packed more useful information about Japanese style saws into one video than I have ever seen in one place. While I have been using a Japanese saw for decades to flush trim plugs over countersunk screws, etc., I never had the big picture, which you presented. Many thanks.
Great video as always! I have a few Japanese saws and I love them, I only wish I opted for a bigger ryoba, mine is about 7.5”. I would love to see a video about Japanese chisels and planes!
Hi James,
The comfort and fatigue advantage you mention is because the pull stroke uses the posterior chain, which means all the large muscles in your bank (lats and traps) and the biceps, while the push stroke uses the smaller chest muscles (pecs) and the triceps (which, while larger than the biceps, are mechanically disadvantaged by the structure of the elbow).
I would love to see more videos on japanese saws, chisels, and other less common eastern style tools. I mostly use power tools but have a few japanese saws and a set of chisels that I really like. The japanese saws are affordable and to me, much easier to use than western saws. I picked up a lee valley rip saw recently for about a hundred bucks, with the assumption that this would be better quality thant I am used to as I had only used cheap western saws in the past, but found it harder to use than my japanese saws which cost about 30 bucks. Specifically, with the lee valley saw it is hard to get a cut started (while very easily with my japanese saws) and even harder to get started on a precise line. Though it does cut significantly faster - when it gets going of course. That's not to say the lee valley is a bad saw - the build quality is better and I probably just need more time with it. But the japanese saws cut more accurately and with less effort.
Coming back to woodwork after a very long absence I had problems with cutting straight and the blade jamming using my old western style saws. It took me a while to work out that it was an old injury which caused my wrist to flex and twist the blade on the forward stroke. Cutting on the pull stroke using a Japanese saw actually pulls my wrist into line and keeps my cuts straight.
I'd love to see one on japanese chisels and as always great info.
I learnt a bit of jewellery and silversmithing and we were taught to cut on the pull stroke for the exact reasons you state here - really fine control and feel.
Love to see a discussion about how to make specific cuts for us newbies
Once again, you prove yourself to be great teacher: a lot of good information, comprehensively and objectively delivered, without unnecessary embellishment. You are our own Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Ever since I was a kid and first used a push saw, I thought it was an uncomfortable, inefficient, unwieldy device. The japanese style pull saws with the in-line handle (vs the perpendicular grip of the push saw ) just seems more intuitive and efficient to me.
Yes, please do a video about Japanese saws and chisels. I have the double edged version and love it. I bought it for doing flush cuts but ended up using it for all of my hand-sawing. I didn’t know there was other versions of the saws until now. I have never heard of Japanese chisels so I would love to see that video too.
I still remember very well my confusion when first trying a Japanese saw. Now I love them for the exact reasons James explained. I even cut PVC cable trunks with them due to the much cleaner results.
My brother got me a Japanese saw about 20 years ago. It's been the first saw I reach for when I have to cut something by hand ever since. It came with a handle and two blades. It never occurred to me that the blades might be different until now. I'll need to take a closer look at them now. Thanks for the helpful info!
Are there any pistol-grip style Japanese saws? That seems like it would sell well in America, and it might be more comfortable than the straight handle. But I’m not sure if it would affect precision 🤔
It might be harder to apply force with a pistol grip. A straight handle allows you to push downward while pulling without being awkward.
i dont know if it would be particularly comfortable or precise to cut on the pull with a pistol grip, it seems much more ergonomic for pushing. but i could be wrong, i dont really know.
The first pull saw I ever used had a pistol grip. It was made by Tajima, a JPR300/K1 I believe. Very comfortable to use for me, no problems to adapt to the different motion.
@@m.a.6478 Ok, knowing that, I'm betting it's because the blades are disposable. making them thick(tall?) Enough for a pistol grip is a waste of steel.
Another great video, stumpy! I have been using Japanese dozukis and ryobas for years but still learned a lot here. Thanks
While this does cover lots of great information I do want to put a counterpoint to some opinions. "Ease of Use" is much easier with western because: body mechanics of use, hand fatigue from grip needed with straight handle (ergonomics), speed of cut (benefit of body mechanics), and steerability mid cut (correcting to the line) being a few. Most of this comes from push saws were used more with standing benches and pulls with sitting benches so the body is used differently hence the wider variety of lengths in push saws as some use only the arm others use the whole body. One thing not mentioned about the "hardened teeth" is that in some of the American native species (red and white oak come to mind) the teeth can snap in the board as they go through open cells (pores). This is a modern attribute/detraction as teeth weren't always hardened so it wasn't a problem when they would cut stuff like teak. While loosing a tooth or ten isn't a big deal to the performance of the saw the metal shards left in board can wreak havoc later down the road.
A counter counterpoint; the pull saws require much less effort to use as compared to the western saw, so you don't need to get your whole body into it. Most of the time when I'm using a pull saw, I only hold it with a couple fingers and let it flow. There's no need to grip it and force it through a cut.
@@jeffh4505 we’ll disagree on this one. I saw all day with traditional. Hands cramp after an hour with straight handles.
The tendency to brake teeth was mentioned among the cons. As for comfort, it depends on what you are used to. We develop muscles based on what we do the most. I have experienced this many times in life, being able to easily do something a much larger person struggled with, and vise-versa. If you use Western saws every day, you will find them more comfortable. There is no right or wrong answer here.
@@StumpyNubs It's all opinion. As said, no right or wrong just thought a counterpoint was valid. I started with pull saws and used them for years. I find you have to grip straight handles (even push) but pistol grips "sit" with very little grip required hence no carpal tunnel issues for me with them. Sorry, I watched whole video while packing and must of missed the breakage part.
@@wortheffort No problem :)
Thank you for the excellent description describing the difference between the different saw types.
Thank you for this! I’ve just started using a ryoba saw (auto-correct wanted to call it a “rumba” saw) that a friend gave me several months ago. I didn’t quite know what to do with it, though greatly appreciated the thoughtfulness. Right away I noticed how easy it is to follow a line and that not fighting the saw is critical. I discovered one set of teeth cut better crosscutting and the other ripping. Now I know why. Now I want to get the smaller dozuki and try it on some dovetails! (Just ordered it from your link 👍)
More on Japanese woodworking tools please! This channel is the best woodworking channel on the UA-cam’s!
Wow, lots of information. Gonna have to watch again. Especially your last few minutes on what saw for what cut and number of teeth, etc. Thanks. Great video
Just an elderly knuckelhead here, who loves handsaws. You did an excellent job in 13 min. with regard to the title of the video. Content and videography - congrats. I remember dropping out of college in 1980 and selling my car to buy woodworking tools. I bought a ryoba 270 mm "Tama Kitsune" brand, or "Jade Fox" for $27.00 - just saw the receipt the other day. It did not cut straight. I wanted to make a rip cut while working at a furniture repair shoppe, and the Disston rip saw wouldn't cut straight either. Cut well shy of the line, and chiseled the rest. When a Rosewood chair came in months later, I finally shelled out $125 for a weekend workshop at "The Lutherier" in Saugerties NY. I got a dozuki made by Shindo. Robert Meadow had setup and sharpened --- "Hon Metate" which is what happens in Japan when you buy a saw. That way, it's custom done, and you take it back to the same dealer when it's dull, or rather _not sharp_ . Then he will use the same brand of file, which is easier than changing to another file brand. Also, several months later, he taught me how to make the blade flat and straight and non twisted, how to set teeth, and I got eventually more saws ect. Once I had the Disston straight, flat, set, and sharp, It cut great, and could get in some places a ryoba or kataba couldn't.
Point being Japanese, American, German, English, and Chinese saws all are a joy to use --- if they are sharp and flat and evenly set. And a real frustrating job if not.
That's what they all have in common, and here's the thing --- I went for 6 years thinking "I must be doing something wrong with my arm, or body, it don't work because no one ever taught me how to saw"
No, as it turned out, the rip Disston was sharp, but it had a slight curve to the blade. same with the Tama Kitsune, except it also had some cup. Also at that time, disposable blades from Japan were not all flat. Some fit loose in the handle. They are better now, so I'm not dissing them, but a real Shindo or Chuyemon, or Miyano Tetsunoke, or Mitsukawa, or even Nakaya leave them in the dust --- after Hon Metate. OTOH, good luck finding good files.
Why?, because disposable blade saws did kill the traditional saw makers, and the metate, and the file makers. I guess for most people Western technology is -- certainly from the corporate thought process and value system -- far superior to the traditional artisans aesthetics.
Personally, I'm glad I spent my time here on Earth questing for Beauty, Truth, and Human scale goals. To all you knuckleheads who love your handtools and working with woods -- which is the great Master to those who want to learn from it --- 3 cheers ! Give it your full focus and attention, and you might see it is full of Ki, it is not just dead material, you might open your heart to it and have it opened even more.
Good video, James. I started with Japanese saws for the typical beginner reasons but stayed with them because the precision and ease of use. My one hold out is my large western rip saw which
I use for breaking down large stock. My next purchase will be a large ryoba which i expect to use for that purpose.
One advantage you did not mention for Japanese saws is for resawing. and cutting veneers. Forget the expense and setup and use of a bandsaw - a kataba or ryoba does a beautiful job and is a joy to use..
I've had these for so many years and continue to restock them. Good review
Any extra tips & trick on the Japanese saws would be extremely welcome, so here's one vote for that second video! Thanks for putting this out there.
thanks for the subtitles in the videos. Your lessons are very important. Well done
I recently bought an Irwin Marples Dozuki. I really enjoy using it but I wish it had a replaceable blade. Thanks for the information and the recommendations.
I had been considering buying a Ryoba for a while; this video helped me decide. I ordered one. Thank you!
Love these videos. They’re full of great information, but I really enjoy seeing all those different tools on the shelves
Looking forward to trying one! Sounds SO MUCH easier to cut a straight line! Thanks!
Wow. Lightglobe moment. This makes perfect sense to me. Thank you.
I found your channel as a YT suggestion, but am now a subscriber.
I bought myself a ryoba for Christmas one year ahead of cutting big mortise and tenons for my workbench. It was super-accurate straight away, and the bonus was I didn’t pick up a circular saw for another year after that. By the time the circular saw is plugged in and straight edge aligned and offset, the ryoba has finished. AND it doesn’t have to stop at children's bedtimes…
great coverage "Stumpy", a point of cross over with saws is all the old Log saws due to their length as you know were all pull saws, so a mix in the family but not a consideration for the home woodworker... I couldn't imagine trying to rip a panel with a 10' saw with 1 tooth per inch... Keep up the great spread of content Mate!
I have been using a Ryoba a lot over the past year or so and it’s been great. I will soon add on to my Eastern saw collection and look forward to more videos that will help me convince my wife of their value!
Good topic, definitely going to look up the dealer you mentioned. I prefer the look and feel of western saws, but the versatility, performance, and price point of Japanese saws has led me to buy several ryoba in different sizes. I look forward to trying a dozuki next after seeing your video
Another great and informative video James, thanks.
More videos on comparing Japanese tools to our western tools would be fantastic!!!
I don't do woodwork, I'm not sure how this ended up in my mentions, but I do a lot of backwoods camping. I have a fold out saw that cuts on the pull and it's an absolute game changer for quickly processing a dead tree for fire wood. I don't think I'll go back to a push saw ever again.
I don't really do woodworking but it's very enjoyable listening to someone who enjoys his craft so much
Excellent video, as ever! I have been fortunate enough to visit Japan regularly - the last two plus years aside - and have always picked up a few woodworking toys whilst there.
I have been using these exceptional saws for over a decade now, and like you, prefer the single blade version.
On my first few visits, I picked up a couple of packs of replacement blades for each, but soon realized that they stay sharp for a very long time. The advantage of buying them in Japan, obviously, is the cost. You can pick up a decent Razor Saw for around £20 Sterling, and replacement blades for less than half that. Of course, as you state, there are much more expensive versions, but as a carpenter, I find these more than adequate.
I have always enjoyed your content, and would greatly appreciate future tutorials covering both Japanese saws and chisels. Thanks for taking the time to share your wealth of knowledge.
I've used a ryoba saw for years for cutting balsa and basswood for model aircraft. The pull stroke makes starting the cut much less damaging in extremely soft woods like balsa and also reduces tear-out at the end of the cut. The thin kerf lessens waste and the sawdust is much finer.
After watching this, I used my CHEAP Harbor Freight pull saw yesterday to notch some 1x4 pine for trimming around a beam in my new shed. WOW. That made the job easier, more accurate and left me with only a small portion to remove with my Multi-Tool.
I will have to invest in some higher quality saws for my shop - Thanks for all the tips & tricks!
Thanks for the comprehensive info. Much I don't see much talk about. I would love a follow up focusing on how to make cuts as I only really know what I do for western style saws so curious to see what the differences are. Would love a chisel video; especially talking about when it's time to and how to move the hard metal as you've sharpened it many many times and the laminate line is getting skinny.
I bought a ryoba and a dozuki recently and I'm so glad I did. You get so much more cutting for the same muscle input. The handles are much more ergonomic too. It just kind of flows in a straight line with your arm, so the effort of holding it is spread out more. Not so concentrated in your hand and wrist. And making a good cut isn't so dependent on keeping your wrist straight. It's more like the blade is part of your arm. Technique is important though. The first time I used the ryoba I started too aggressively and bent a tooth. It wasn't too bad though and I was able to bend it back. They were both like $40 on Amazon and made in Japan. Definitely worth it.
I would like to suggest a very useful saw, especially in the field. Silky makes a folding "pruning saw" (Gomboy) that is great to fold with the blade protected by the handle and keep in your back pocket (or in your tool box). I use these saws to cut off pegs in timber frame construction and cutting trim on a roof without the need to run an extension cord for a power saw. I often use them in the shop, as well. Cuts are clean and the blade rarely scratches the adjacent surface when cutting pegs flush on a finished timber. Blades are available with very fine or aggressive teeth.
I have never used or owned saws of any kind and yet I found this video thoroughly engrossing and interesting... thank you!
James,
I, for one, would love to see more on the use of Eastern style saws and chisels.
The learning curve you mentioned, I was unaware of, until I purchased my first rotation. Kinked that sucker real fast.
I found that a Dozuki can bend in the kerf cutting dovetails. Using western dovetail saws, you can relax for a straight cut after going about a quarter inch.
I like the pull action of ryoba saws but it took a while to get comfortable with the grip. A few things that I find challenging; hard to steer to correct drift and the kerf gets clogged when working on dense woods like ironbark and oily woods like spotted gum.
Definitely want to see the follow up videos. Thank you for another great video.
Just bought a couple Japanese saws for the first time and I love them. Once I learned the technique, I was making very precise cuts that looked much better than I could have done with one of my western saws.