Do WET climbing ropes break weaker???
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- Опубліковано 15 лют 2022
- The rumor is that wet ropes are significantly weaker. The instructions that come with the rope say that it is dangerous. Climbing magazine advises not to use a wet rope. UIAA supposedly got 3 falls instead of 7 like normal, before it broke. What are we supposed to think and do when we end up with a wet rope?
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Measuring and Weighing Wet Ropes
05:30 Dry treated rope Slow Pull
11:01 Standard rope slow Pull
17:15 Drop Tower
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Plug the shit out off the stuff mate . Some people don't relise it costs money to do the science of breaking gear fear. And the content is actually useful for real world applications . As a 40 year-old that started climbing only 4 years ago your channel has helped lot in understanding the limitations of my gear . And has helped me push for more adventures in my homeland of Scotland .. so keep up the great work the whole how not 2 team 👏
I genuinely was terrified of dyneema due to that old drop test video until I found Ryan's videos and he put things in context. The work he does is a fantastic resource.
@@tomedinburgh4490 Thanks. We have some really really good dyneema videos in the bank.
What does "plug the .... out off the stuff mate" mean?
@@elmeradams8781 plug = advertise, canvas, sell
Climbing in Scotland - this episode was made specifically for you :-)
The value of the knowledge you’re sharing is going up exponentially with each video.
couldn't have said it better. the only channel i subscribe to now
I experienced one instance where I was relatively convinced that my rope would have performed differently if it had been dry. During a slightly swinging top rope fall, the sheath ripped open with surprising ease as it made contact with the rock. If a rope's strength against sharp edges is significantly compromised when wet, this could be a realistic safety issue.
It could have been wearing if the anchor was set up with the rope rubbing the rock, how many times was it climbed prior on the same setup?
Yup, that would ve my guess.
The actual strength of the rope is the same, but the durability decreases, thats why this test with new rope showed no difference, but the tests with multiple hard falls did show a difference.
Let's take a moment to recognize Ryan is breaking a sterling dry rope for us. He had to sacrifice many dollars to the climbing gods.
This channel is becoming more and more like Mythbusters but for outdoor sports. Crazy to see how quickly this show has increased it's production value! high quality content from Mr. Jinks.
I've only been told to watch Mythbusters.
Catch-up with me in a cave to say so.
Great stuff!
I hate climbing in the rain. But an arborist doesn't get to pick the weather 🤷🏻♂️
Meanwhile, in caves:
"dry.... ropes...?"
As a beginner climber when I hear the rope creaking I get scared. It's cool to see the figure 8 knot does not slip. You really are breaking gear fear for me. Kudos
Ropes creaking is totally normal. Ironically, they actually *stop* creaking when they're wet
my honest guess as to where the "wet ropes are weaker" thing comes from is from sailing. certain types of rope, when stored wet for periods of time, can mold and this decreases their strength. i don't think this is a problem with synthetic rope, but may be a thing to test.
It is a common thought - riggers and 4x4ers cop it too, Nylon is nearly always "regarded" as being weaker when wet -
run it through a descender under load and it won't be too wet any longer...
This isn't true, it comes from the fact that nylon gets weaker, when it's wet, that simple. Ryan's tests even show this.
It originally comes from natural fibre ropes that really are significantly weaker when wet.
Loving the content... not bothered by the ads, very happy if they're working for you.
The quality of your videos is geting better and better :)
Such great content! Thank you for all your valuable contributions to the community!
I’ve been waiting for this video for awhile. Thank you!
Great video. Leaving a comment and a thumbs up.
I really enjoyed the charts and the fact that you tested the ropes on the drop tower and slacksnap.
would be interesting to see the strength of ropes that are used in wet conditions regularly. Like if a rope has been soaked in water, then laid out in the sun for the day. And repeat this for a couple of weeks or something
research (like how generic i'm being haha) says once it dries out it returns to normal except for whatever micro damage was done to it wet
The sun probably does more damage than the water in that scenario.
If this were a problem, cavers would be dead. 🤣
If you say comments are good for you, it is a supergood enough reason to say that I love your channel.
I think that was a really excellent test, exactly the sort of thing your drop tower is for. Thanks.
lol I love that uh huh smile nod. I had to rewind and watch that a few times I was laughing so hard. Great video man!
Since 1964 I've never seen my wet cave rope break.
I did have issues with wet rope that froze and that
defeated my use of Gibbs and Prusik knots. So, I
climbed up a flowing melt-water chute on-belay.
Was looking forward to this video! Thanks!
Great video, always happy to know that my gear is super good enough!
I don't mind the plugs at all. It's refreshing to see some "wholesome" advertising. Please never sell out to one of those mobile game companies. Love the videos, keep up the great work!
I really really don't want to go to the skillshare or squarespace ad model. Those really make me lose respect for channels i watched since the beginning. I like to add value to the community as much as possible if i'm going to have to plug stuff to make this sustainable.
This channel is awesome. You guys have really helped show me how to properly use my gear and have helped eliminate a lot of my gear fear. Only thing I question anymore is the quality of the anchor in the rock on sport routes. One thing I would be curious to see is some drip testing of the Edelrid ohm device. I’m curious how much force it reduces for the belayer. My fiancé and I have about 70lbs difference between us so when I fall she tends to catch some air. lol. I recently purchased an ohm device and am waiting for it to come in so we can get out and test it.
I’m a little late to the comment section on this one. I wanted to point out a few flaws in your testing.
-It wasn’t wet enough you clearly should have soaked the rope in pure glacier water directly from the source.
- There wasn’t enough sun to be considered a partly sunny day.
- The moon phase was off
- And finally it’s obvious by color coordinating the rope and pants you were playing favorites.
Hehehe
Thanks for putting in the effort great video.
River guide and swift water rescue professional; love super good enough! This channel is super good enough to subscribe to.
keep those ropes dry ;)
You're the man! I appreciate everything you and Bobby do. BTW, I live and guide climbing in Truckee, and I have seen Bobby around multiple times now. Haven't said hello yet, but I'm sure I will. It seems like we do some of the same kind of work with youth.
Say hello next time, can't say i won't be awkward but i am usually friendly. -Bobby
You guys and gals are doing a great job.
Love these videos. Was nervous in my early days of rappelling near a waterfall (not climbing) in fear that the rope would break because of a damp/wet rope. or that the grigri would slip easier.
FYI, you can certainly calculate whether there is a statistically significant difference from those sample sizes (referencing the wet vs dry ggplot boxplots). A simple t-test will do here. And there is definitely a difference (easily seen in the BWP). This is likely a big part of why these warnings are present. I agree with all of your downstream comments, but maybe consult a statistician to help you with concise interp/experimental design?
Statistics doesn't have a concept of "definite." If you did dress up what is essentially backyard science with "statistical significance," then people could gain unfounded confidence in the result because they don't understand the trappings of the methods used.
@@johnsmith34 statistics as a field most certainly has a concept of definite answers ("critical regions" come to mind first). It's actually the point of statistical tests to make definite statements from data.
@@johnsmith34 also, there is no rule saying that science can't take place in a backyard last I checked.
@@feluver The problem with getting statistics involved is that this Ryan's tests aren't designed to cover all possible scenarios and therefore the statistical significance isn't generalizable.
You can certainly say "In Ryan's drop tower, using Decker, this specific rope, tied with this specific knot dropped from this specific height, we saw a statistically significant difference." But anything more than that is no longer covered by the data.
Ryan's tests are mostly useful to know if something is "way off". Not if something is slightly different.
@@thepengwn77 those are called "limitations". They're not problems. They're an omnipresent part of research. Part of presenting research is clearly presenting its limitations, as Ryan is careful to do. This really has nothing to do with statistics. Your argument could easily be made about qualitative reasoning as well.
Commenting for the algorithm. Love the videos
Ryan, I would really like to see you test Whoopie and Loopie slings. (Arborist industry) Would be nice to know if they are as strong as I've been told. Like the eye splice video maybe you could find someone to demonstrate the right way to make them; then test them.
It's cool how the dry rope got wet slower
Finally found the discount code. Thanks!
It’s good to see you that you are using the metric kn
Metric for the win😊
Super good enough is an under statement! Dont get me wrong, safety is always priority number 1! Double/triple check your systems and gear every time. Using gear rated at these ratios is means for having good fun with good friends. That's what its all about! Thank you Ryan and Bobby!!! You boys are the shiz!!!
I could've saved you a bunch of time Ryan. We developed a crag which dries super fast, which meant that we often get caught half way up a route by rain, run away and hide in a cave for a bit, then go straight back to climbing on, yes, wet ropes. We are all still alive. Truth is if you ever generate enough force to be close to the ropes max you will probably break your back. Most falls dont come even vaguely close to those kind of forces
I think you guys should test different other types of rope, wet and dry, on the drop tower. Anyway very good video, keep it up!
Very interesting video!! Could be good to know what happen with low stretch ropes in canyoning.
exceptional video!
Great video.
a lot of plastic like nylon can absorb moisture from their environment over an extended period of time often this causes it to become more brittle or affect wear cycling it would be interesting to look at the difference at longer exposure to see what that affect water absorbed into the material itself has compared to water that has been sucked into the inter fiber spaces like a sponge
This is a cool vid! had the same question.
Commenting for algorithm, leaving a like, and many thanks, for everything you do
In braided rawhide, the fibers need to be lubed to be strong. Round braids move as they tighten to clamp to the core. Rope makers have a treatment of the rope to self lube the fibers. In this case water and ice will lube the fibers. The idea is to reduce the friction factor on the fibers in ropes. For the drop tests, what was the outside temperature and humidity during the tests?
So stoked to see the drop tower put up to this. Huge payoff for us, your viewers, from all of your hard work!! Stoked to see this put to the test.
I’d like to see the wet rope test done using various devices to see what the effects are, not necessarily on rope strength but on the effectiveness or lack thereof of each device on a wet rope. Like using a prusik, Grigri, ascender, Micro traction, etc.
I loved the segway to the sponsor lol reminded me of linus tech tips channel
I guess that is where i've seen that done haha
My guy in the grey is wearing the best layer ever, the Outdoor Research Ascendant Hoody!! Such a shame they discontinued it...
This would look really cool if you did a colab with The SlowMo Guys!
Really cool video!
Thanks!
“Is that our tail doing just fine over here.” Excellent line!
i woke up to this video, not to intrested in climbing, but rn im very invested
In the uiaa tests, all the breakage occurs over a rounded metal edge, which is supposed to represent the last piece of protection. Can you add a similar edge in your system? The metal edge is essentially supposed to be a 1 cm steel biner.
I loved this video.
I don’t even climb and I love this channel lol
I've always wondered how fast someone would fall if they're rappelling with an ATC and just completely let go of the rope. It must slow them down a bit, especially rappelling on 2 strands of rope, and I wonder if some twisting or swinging of the rope from the fall would make you speed up or slow down.
I've been canyoneering a lot. Would love to see this test, but I can say with some certainty, it won't slow you enough to help.
Sadly, because gravity, you have the most significant friction at the very top of a very tall rope. It does a bit for sure, but the qualitative result of hitting the deck from a given height is more or less the same as with no rope. Always have a 3rd hand or a fireman's belay, seizures happen.
I just realized I don't actually know whether those are real terms or just what utah canyoneers call them. For clarity, '3rd hand' is a klemheist knot on your brake line clipped to your leg loop, and 'fireman's belay' is an attentive buddy at the bottom with his hands high on your brake line ready to stop you.
When canyoning I frequently let go of the last portion of an rappel to drop into a pool of water. And I can tell you the speed lost is almost that of a freefall
@@torydavis10 I've never done any canyoneering and have heard climbers call it a third hand. Obviously best practice is to have some element of redundancy. That makes sense though that the more rope under you the more friction there would be on the device, so you have no friction when you need it most
Really interesting video, as always.
And I would love to buy the Rocky-talkie but they don't ship to Sweden :( It sucks
"The water is cold"
Brilliant! :))))
If you really want to get nerdy… you can plot the data as a stress strain graph to get the Young’s modulus to calculate the stiffness and derive the peak force the rope can withstand and compare that to your drop test. You would need to take more data points on the tension puller, but idk of the juice is worth the squeeze
Here is one more comment to help with the algorithm. I really thought the ropes were going to be on sale! I need rope! Great video as always.
You can still buy them :) hhaha
Comementing for the algorithm, and this is super interesting. Just like most climbing gear, if you're using it in a realistic manner it's super good enough and you'll likely hurt yourself before breaking the gear!
One of the best videos yet. However, for the UIAA falls, wouldn’t the concern be how much the water inhibits the rope from regaining that stretch since falling a second or third and so forth time on a rope after thirty seconds versus after five minutes has a different impact on the lifespan of the core, correct?
Had never thought too much of my ropes being a bit damp except for the handling issues, because no one wants to be belaying a wet and likely soon to be dirty rope.
It would be interesting to put a thermocouple device on the knot to see what heat is being (if any) when you stretch the rope.
Love the car vlog!
There was a lot more but the audio was bad. I picked him up from the airport and continued filming so it sort of fit.
Thank you
I don't need a money clip, I have a beard trimmer, I don't play video games, being a Scottish lord sounds un-American and I think all the headphones in ads are terrible. Rockie Talkies however.... that's something I might actually buy - thank you for not working a manscaped ad into your puns and showing me something that might actually help me :)
super good enough for the algorithm.
Can you please drop test badly/loosely knotted figure eight and bowline knots. How bad/loose/ugly do they have to be to not be super good enough anymore.
So... in 3D printing, we use dehydration ovens to pull the water out of our filaments so they print properly. Assuming nylon continues drawing water in through its life, could dehydrating an old rope cause higher yield figures, essentially restoring a rope?
Edit: also, I learned that dry treatments don't do all that much for the rope weight/water absorption. Thanks!
Can’t believe i missed out on that rocky talkie deal 😔
I heard wet ropes are fine on the 1st fall but then fail to recover their dynamic properties (so a 2nd fall is harder)
Nice!
the soft shackle design should be around your torso or around your arms, just a random idea, hope it helps you sell more shirts!
are you going to do the same tests with dyneema as I think it would be nice to know as on my racing catamaran (a spitfire) I am using spliced sk99max instead of wires for my shrouds
stop worrying so much about random comments under your videos. your work is amazing. such good knowledge as a climber!!
Good stuff man. I'm curious, could the manufacturer be accounting for slightly compromised ropes? Just spitballing but maybe a wet rope that is weakened from a small cut on the sheath is an issue? Also a wet rope is heavier so a big whipper would increase the forces, though negligibly surely
Great video. I have to admit I would have rather seen tests on 11mm static rope.
I've had rope technicians refuse to work on wet ropes. They were claiming I was putting their life in danger. Note this has only happened once and I was able to get them back to work after a long debate but now I have #s to throw at them.
You think you would get similar results on 11mm static - semi static ropes?
Thx
Hey hey
Would love to see those tests on a tree cimbing ropes and gear (petzel zigzag, rooe wrench,akimbo,,,), there not soppose to catch a fall but its frequently to have the opportunity for high ff due to the nature of this job ,
Also curious to know the effect of sand +salt water on ropes, thanks
Hey Ryan I'm sure there's a comment in here somewhere covering this topic but... I think the only thing can really be a concern with wet ropes is that wet ropes do not retract as quickly after being stretched. So I would imagine that repeated falls could produce harder and harder catches.
It would be difficult to test but say take 2 ropes that sat in the same conditions for a few years soak one then dry it and compare which is stronger and if you can rejuvenate a rope that's sat around to long
Can you do a video with the drop tower about how often gri-gris slip with no hand on the dead rope?
Hey, can you do an episode on break gear fear for arborists? espexcially looking at the fall power the climber gets ?
one question.. have you ever tested ropes that got into sea water and then dried??? how salt affect the fibres?? couldn't find any information..
I wonder if the weight increase of the dry-treated rope in only for the water between fibers, not in the polymer molecule, as I understand it happens with polyamides.
I'm not a climber but you are doing the lords work for climbers everywhere
hey could you revisit this with 11mm static ropes?? rope access peeps would love to see it. thank you if so
Good for the algorithm 😘
The double peak .
¿The outer core is soaking up water reducing it s stretch causing it to reach max elongation first and brakes first. The second climb is the core taking its full load without the support of the outer jacket?
I've always been told that wet ropes aren't necessarily weaker, but if you weight them while they are wet, then then the rope gets significantly more worn then if you let them dry first. I have a rope where it started raining while we were climbing and by the time we were all off the wall we were lowering off of a totally soaked rope, luckily we really only needed to use one side of it. I still have the rope and checking it it's still in good condition and I've been using it regularly for many more months, but the half we used while wet is now super soft and feels close to core shot while the side that did not get weighted is still fairly stiff. I can't think of anything else that I may have done with the rope to leave it as unevenly worn as it is.
Could you do a drop test with Nalgene bottles that have a paracord net around it?
Hurray for the box plots! 16:39
💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰
They do show an 11 & 15% weaker break force for wet ropes on the averages. Although more data is would be more solid.
This also shows why a safety ratio is important, because you can loose a bunch of strength to different factors.
I'm no statistician, but how TF does he get upper and lower quartiles when there's only 3 samples of each?! it's completely meaningless for that small a sample size.
Where else is "a bunch" of strength lost...? Other than by tying-in? 🤣
You might wanna make sure the LCD's and your camaras are running at non matching frequencies
It may just be my misunderstanding, but it's possible you may not necessarily be comparing apples to apples. A couple of tests that would have been interesting would be to test the elongation after the drop tower for all three ropes in testing, as well as subsequent water retention / weight. The big unknown question remains: if your rope got significantly saturated and took a fall when should you retire it
You should do nylon vs polyester statics wet ropes
This is good for the algorithm ...
I might have missed it. Were all the ropes brand new? Seemed like the difference between the first drop test and the second was pretty consistently higher forces in the second. That might just be due to the rope losing some elasticity from the first fall.
Did knots seem like they got tighter with the wet ropes? I wonder if with less friction they can get tighter and pinch/bend the rope more.
Yes. They were new
Knots absorb some fall. 2nd fall had cinched knots.
I wanna know what the forces would be if a rope were to snap and hit a person with the back lash? I know it would probably kill you if it hit the face/head but what would the impact force be?
This is a sick vid
Here's an engineers educated guess. One of the important factors in rope stretch is internal friction. Specifically, the friction between the individual rope strands. Wetting the rope reduces the friction between the strands and allows the rope to stretch more given the same force. The longer it stretches the faster it will get to its breaking point (past it's elastic deformation, into plastic deformation, and finally to breakage). Hence a weaker rope.
I'd love to see some ice screw tests, I can't be the only one lol
What if your rope already had knots that had been loaded and then got wet does the rope swell effect the already tight knots strength. love the gear break series keep up the awesome work
I'd be willing to bet it makes no difference. Even the swelling from freezing the rope is nothing compared to how deformed the knots get when pulling so hard.
I could be wrong though.
If knots getting wet were dangerous, canyoneers and cavers would be dead.