See what broke our snow anchor pickets!
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- Опубліковано 22 лют 2022
- We tested pickets, bollards and even a glove for a snow anchor with Kevin Watson and / cruikedjoe
The Book DOWN by Andy Kirkpatrick found at amzn.to/353fPRZ
Frozen rope episode • Are Frozen Climbing Ro...
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I would like to see a ski buried as a T-anchor tested.
Thanks for going out into the snow! There's a lot of risks to be explained and things to get tested I think.
yeah, and two skis equalized!
They'd need skis to sacrifice for that though
Yes please, two skis doubled as you would for a crevasse rescue anchor when you’re roped for travelling glaciated terrain.
@@Debruggergo to a thrift store in snow country
In Magnus Midbto's new ice climbing video his instructor claimed "I'd hand a car off that" and "the hanger will break before it comes out" about ice screws. They need a break test
I would love to see ice screw anchors and V threads!
meeee toooo!
I genuinely had a discussion last week, where i argued that a glove burried in good snow is good enough. 🤫
Would love to see a test on how much force it takes to pull someone out of a crevasse with different (improvised) pullies.
opening the door to snow anchor testing, this channel now has enough potential content for the next decade.
Be interesting to see a test of a deadman as well as pickets (like a DMM deadman, fixe/faders deadman that kind of thing) as a lot of people use that sort of thing rather than pickets
I really want to see if a snow bollard is okay without padding, in alpinism you often don't have the luxury of leaving a backpack behind.
yep! i've tested it a few times in safe situations and it definitely held bodyweight even with me jumping around and jiggling it but i'd love to know how much more
Couldn't you attach the padding to you rope in such a way that when you retrieve your rope, the padding comes with it?
@@cameronwebster6866 there are ways but then you have issues of pads getting stuck tearing off, etc. What if its only for a day mission and I don't have a pad or big pack? What if I'm using a thermarest. There are lots of situations where I wouldn't be able to pad the bollard.
I've done a steep rappel off one without padding and it seemed fine...
Exactly. would love to see a stuff sack or water bladder stuffed with snow. Leaving a pack could make a bad situation worse and in a rescue, that pack is maybe what you need to keep a rope from cutting into the edge of a crevasse.
I usually build a snowman and anchor to the lowest ball.
In most blokes, that'd be the left.
I would like to see an ice screw anchor bolt for ice climbing.
Thanks for starting this! I’m kinda amazed that our cascade concrete wasn’t stronger. What would better snow conditions be? Would love to see some ice axe anchors in better snow.
As a Swede just based on general snow knowledge and not any specific for ice climbing, I would guess you would prefer a colder temp in the snow.
If the snow reads -2 C, that is just two degrees below freezing, I would expect the snow to be on the wet side.
I would guess it would be preferable to have it a bit colder than that.
Like a random guess, maybe around -7 (?). Snow is a pretty good insulator, so I don’t know how cold it manages to get a bit deeper into the snow.
And the weather during the whole season is important.
If you get a thaw that melts the top layer of snow, and you get water going down deep in the snow, followed by regular deep freezes.
And then after that you get sustained low temperatures.
You get these thick absolutely rock hard snow layers.
It’s basically close to huge block of ice.
Quite concrete like, so maybe they have those conditions normally happen quite often with their snow. But it wasn’t the condition the snow had at the day of filming.
But no matter if you have really good solid layers of hard layers, if right underneath that you have a big layer of really powdery snow that give to anything, super soft.
Then you can have avalanche like stuff happen, and have the soft layer be the failure point.
So digging and checking all the snow layers is going to be important.
Glacier snow is what would be better.
could you test ice screws and anchors, abalak anchor thanks a lot it is great to watch :)
Definitely need a follow up to this one. Our snow consolidates very nicely up here in the summer. Gives true meaning to "cascade concrete". You can build some very bomber picket anchors in that stuff! Key, of course, would be getting to that snow as it will require a hike of some sort. Still very informative video!
If someone doesn't photoshop a picture of Ryan crawling up Everest with that ice axe I'll be sooo disappointed 🤣 Definitely loved the snow anchor videos, would definitely enjoy more along with an ice anchor series 🤞👍
Yet another fantastic video! Keep 'em coming! Deadmen, dry snow, ice axes, screws.....
Yeah I'd be very interested in late spring consolidated snow pack up on a cascade mountain (eg. Baker, Rainier)! Also there is lots of comedy to be had with: I'm out on the side of a mountain with no gear, what kind of shit can I burry and still make an anchor. Bags filled with snow, sticks. You did a glove already, but options are endless.
Also, welcome to the PNW. It is a good time up here.
This is great and I think shows a lot about how variable winter snow can be and how weak basic picket anchors in that kind of snow often are as a result. It would be really cool to see these same tests done in a mid or late summer snowpack when things are way more consolidated, my suspicion is that you would probably see the picket break in nearly every test done and it would be cool to see what kind of numbers you get from non standard anchors (vertical/deadmaned ice axe, deadmaned trekking pole, backpack, frozen snickers bar, etc.) when snow strength isn't the limiting factor.
Yes more snow and alpine tests!!
More snow conditions would be nice to see.
I don't see what made this snow so bad aside from the weak layer, it was nice and dense? Dealing with fresh fluffy snow seems like the real issue?
Could you do the same thing with ice axes? Europe people never use pickets but burry their skipoles, skis or most common an ice axe
As a backcountry skier in the PNW, so far my favorite episode. More snow types please!!!
one of my favorite videos of yours yet! There are a million variable with snow anchors and I would love more videos of these kinds of tests!
This experiment would be really cool in the spring in the rockies over the course of a day, before sunrise to mid-day when the snow has had sun exposure. In winter in the rockies I don't think snow pickets would hold anything in our dry snow. I would also love to see ice screws and v-threads as others have mentioned. thank you for all that you do!
You gotta test ice screws and v-threads!
deadman anchors based on skis or an ice axe that you might have to use for crevasse self-rescue would be really cool.
Great work as always! Thanks 🤙
Excellent! I Learned a lot. Thank you all!
Awesome episode. Informative and entertaining. Thank you.
Awesome information and entertaining video. Thanks!
10:44 Just glad nobody came up with the idea to go try break that mega-picket anchored on top of the hill!
I think this is the best piece of educational material I have seen on this topic. So good that you showed the pit and described the snow conditions. So interesting to see the contrast with the packed snow. I would love to see you do it again in different snow conditions. I would like to see more comparisons between 24-inch and 36-inch pickets, as well as a t-slot with a pair of skis. Good to see the folks from SMR.
Very interesting. So many variables you can explore...thanks for getting some baseline testing!
As a mountaineering enthusiast, I love this vid!
Awesome video thank you. Snow is so variable it's hard to test but you did show the strength of different configurations which is what I was most interested in
That was one of the most interesting videos of yours to date! I really enjoyed the professional input from Kevin and Joe.
Would love to see this again in different snow and maybe some other anchors (Ice-Axe, Ski, Snow-Shoe, frozen Body,...).
Love this content!!
Please, take advantage of the season! more ice climbing equipment test will be awesome
Definitely interested in seeing this again in different snow conditions.
I had a guy tell me he rapped off a frozen Snickers bar. Also, that it use to be common to use chapstick tubes. I could see the snickers perhaps. Love what you guys do!
Due to the incredible variability in conditions, placement, slope angle, and equipment, I'd love to see more snow stuff! Super helpful to have a ballpark estimate on deciding what's super good enough for typical self rescues.
Thanks for the video. I do some mountaineering and I always wondered about the actual strength of snow anchors.
nice!!!! this was awesome
You do great job, thank you Sir 👍💯🔥
Finally!!!!!! This exciting!!!!!! Love Cascadia!!!!
Yes please show snow rescue methods and equipment.
Yes please test more snow anchors ! The glove test was a riot
This is awesome! thanks Ryan and team for getting around to testing this for all of us snow nerds! Really cool to see how these behave in a close to isothermic (when the snow is all the same temp, usually 0 degrees Celsius) snowpack.
As a bit of a snow nerd myself, I'll try to share some of my thoughts.
It looks like his thermometer is down about 15-20cm from the surface. There is usually a temperature change of roughly 1 degree Celsius every 10cm of snow when you have an air temp of around what looks like to me based on the rain/snow of 0°c, if not a little bit warmer. This also works from the ground up, the snow touching the ground is almost always 0°c because the heat of the earth (something you would not have on a say, a glacier), This is probably why you are seeing fairly low results. The snow is close to being one big wet slushie! On the other hand if you took this exact snowpack and tested this on a day after say, 24 hours of below freezing temps, you could probably have very different results. Then all that moisture would freeze all the snow particles together and create a very strong snowpack. Much stronger in fact than snow that never saw above freezing air temperature in the first place (Rockies?). This is why you are able to get cascade concrete =D
hope this helps.
Also, I second @Deckzwabber and would love to see a T-Slot anchor with skis. Oh yeah and ice screws, V/ A threads would be super cool too!
Cheers!
I think we need a good frame of reference for what kind of forces you may exert on a snow anchor. You have shown what a big rock climbing whipper can generate, but what about a rope team on a steep snow climb?
ive only ever used them for abseiling or belaying up my seconder so they shouldnt have seen more than 1kn. not sure how else other people use these anchors though
@@benja_mint They're used for mountain rescues, crevasse rescues, and for belaying people across crevasses in addition to being used to belay people at the top of long alpine ice climbs. While they're not as good as ice screws in good ice - good ice is actually pretty hard to find sometimes on the cascade volcanoes, so pickets work just the same - just less MBS as demonstrated here. Not meant for catastrophic falls, but for what is essentially a top-rope whipper, they are good - can also be combined with a snow bucket belay or with a trenched tool for extra stability. I think how consolidated and how frozen the snow is an important factor in it's maximum holding strength. The snow you get high on a cascade volcano is very different from the snow in the meadow in the video (usually more frozen/concrete like than down low - but sometimes quite powdery depending on aspect/season/conditions). I've only heard of pickets being popular in the Cascades - but perhaps there are uses for them in Alaska/Peru/Patagonia as well.
The good thing about rope team falls is that the impacts tend to hit the anchor one at a time, as the each member pulls their individual segment taut. That's how Pete Schoening was able to anchor 6 falling climbers with an ice axe in his hands during the now-famous K2 belay in 1953.
I agree the boot-axe belay would be really interesting.
Cool video. You never know when you may need to make a snow anchor. That climb at the end looks pretty tough. Lol
The other thing we do on my team in Colorado is after packing down the snow on an anchor we let it "set" for half an hour to an hour (depending on crystals). I'd love to see you test deadman anchors buried in the snow and packed in then pull on them in half hour increments.
This is a really cool idea
This technique is known as "work hardening". It can strengthen the anchor if the snow grains sinter together with the added compaction. Snow is cool!
different snow pack, the deadman in comparison and then skis, branches from trees would be awesome to see!
FYI: The shorts dont really explain this while your 17 minute 'long' format does a lot better. I wonder what it would be like to make an A frame (2 pickets with a top you pin and anchor from) (the idea of design of the picket might have to be beefed up)
This was great! I love this type of content! Branching out from the normal stuff. (Not that I don't love the normal stuff)
Awesome video, I always worry about half a dozen or like Everest a few hundred on 1 rope when mountaineering.
I'd love to see this with improvised anchors, like a ski tied off.
It would be great to see some fluke snow anchor testing. Also it would be great to compare deadman and bollard anchors in various snow conditions and size of the anchor. Great episode.
Nice more snow anchors please 😃
Would love to see more snow anchors, especially in soft or windpacked snow
Would also like to see anchors made out of tree branches as you don't have to leave anything but a sling if you can't retrieve your anchor
Thanks Ryan! Would be awesome to see you do this on the glaciers of rainier, where the snow and ice might be different !
this is gold, can you test the big snow boy without the padding bacpack? We use the rope directly on snow so would be nice to know and maybe different sizes
In this case i don't think it would have held anything, but yea with different snow for sure we can
@@HowNOT2 i was suprised how well it holds even in "pow" few days old on ice when i saw it for 1st time, but well yes, it was tripple the size of this one so i guess you are right
I'd love to see some makeshift anchors, ski poles/skis, ice axes, shovel, etc. Love the glove test
You guys are dope!
Seeing snow ballard without bags would be really interesting, i would also love some T or verticals anchors tested with some piolets like you would have in the mountain if you don't have pickets. Ice screws and V threads for the ice part would be really cool too!
Love the glove anchor - Great mental note for emergency! Now need a clever idea of how to pull a snowmobile out of a ravine with minimal equipment and alone - minimal gear to keep on the sled.... Know Cascade Concrete all too well grew up in Wa, and did SAR there near on 35 years ago...
One day in crummy snow doesn't mean a whole lot. You could do a whole channel just on snow anchors in different conditions. Take that meter up and do some standard crevasse rescue practice. I'd like to see the forces placed on anchors in that scenario. 2:1, 3:1, 6:1, 9:1.
Here in Scotland we use either ice axes or deadmans for our snow anchors and abseil of snow bollards with no padding.
From what I know apparently here in Canada an Inuit group has about 10-20 words for different types of snow
Screws in solid ice?
When we built picket anchors we stomped down the snow in front of where we were putting the the picket. Id love to see if compacting the snow in that way made a difference
So much work to crest the parking lot, Haven't spent much time in the snow but the nightmare would always be to fall in a crevas, definitely want someone quick with the snow ax and a picket there. Yeah different snow types would be good to see too, I've always been curious.
Thank you for testing anchors. Now you need to build a snow "drop slope" similar to your Sacramento Drop Tower to evaluate the actual forces observed in long simulated falls on steep snow slopes. On snow at least it is unlikely one will be able to generate the forces found in a free fall on rock.
Would love to see some homemade pickets being used, or try with a MSR fluke. Awesome content!! Thanks a ton! Also, test a buried ice axe!!
Looks like you guys snowmobiled in, what about using vehicles to anchor off in an emergency? Snowmobiles, motorcycles, bicycles, truck hitches?
Great video. Test twisted straps. Quick draws.
Webbing and slings
Cool testing spot, I snowmobile right by there!
I would love to see several pickets of various styles all tied together into one anchor, like a T-slot or deadman sliding x'd to a vertical picket above, and maybe x cascade to another picket somewhere. Mix them all together, Something like that would be interesting.
Also very much looking forward to ice screw anchors and v-threads!
Oh and P.S.- someone has definitely rappelled off a snickers bar frozen in water ice.
Ice ax bollard, Ice ax with boot step would be great. I'm not leaving a glove or candy (seriously who would?), but a medium sized stuff sack packed with snow has always been a backup and would love to see what that could get. And please, for the love of all that is sacred on the mountains, can we get Ryan above tree line for some self arrest and glissade?
I want to know more about different kinds of snow and pickets!
Hey, thank you for your content, I love them :)
I can't find good information about auto braking devices for ice climbing and winter mountaineering.
Can you suggest which devices are "super good enough" and why?
Cheers
Good stuff and scary. I felt using these climbing grade 1-2 snow gullies is Scotland snow anchors (pickets) were purely psychological . I thought the bollard might work though. Depends so much on snow of course.
Do ice screws! Also, a little out of your scope, but id love for you to get your hands on some of the crusty old anchors and other equipment small scale roofing companies tend to use to see if it would actually withstand a whip.
Please please please do the same tests in colder conditions!
Get this man to 100k, pls
yes! That would be nice :)
For the full British experience you need a properly frozen Mars Bar which at -10C probably has a structural integrity similar to the pickets you were using! The snow adhesion of a sub-zero trad shrunk wool mitt may also be a factor. 🙄
This is great. Id love to see you test how cleaning affects a rope (eg normal, muddy, washed with water, washed with bleach, etc)
bleach!? Bleck!!
Thank you thank you thank you. There is an old science paper that compared these as well. I've been pointing out that vertical pickets barely hold body weight. But people keep insisting they're useful like that.
I'm pretty sure in better snow they would have done better
Super strong enough as anchors. Someone falling/sliding in snow doesn't generate a lot of force. Usually in snow the falling person also has an ice to help slow themselves down.
V threads? Always seem like magic
best end to a video lol
That snow seemed to be really warm. I wonder how much the air temperature and long wave radiation from the clouds was a factor in the strength of the snow? I bet testing snow that was more frozen or colder would be very different.
Please test modern pickets ; New Zealand style, 90 degree angle iron mid clip. Typically in NZ tests these are by far the best
Trekking poles! Aluminum and carbon fiber. That would be interesting.
Buried avalanche shovel scoop
Please try an ice axe it’s standard on crevasse rescue
Ice axe arrest forces, ice axe anchor, strength of ice when ice axe is pulling on it.
It would be really cool if Extreme Gear became the sole US supplier for Wide Boyz items. I would love to buy some crack volumes, but getting them out of the UK is a pain. Just a thought...
Hey this was very nice to see. Could you Test Gras Ankors in Mixed (Frozen Gras) and in Summer not (Frozen Gras)
Encouraging people to get out on one hand and helping save lives on the other....impressive
To see some Icescrews geting pulled, would be great!
On the books!