Jak & Daxter Theory: Is Jak THE MAR?
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- Опубліковано 25 кві 2017
- How long has it been since fans started speculating about whether Jak is Mar or not? This is still a mystery left to solve. Many thought this answer would had gotten answered in Jak 4, a game which still remains in the shadows.
Jak & Daxter 3 is what gave rise to this huge mystery. Jak's true name was revealed and one of the characters' remarks is what started debates. Is Jak really the Mar? The legendary hero who founded Haven City?
Is it possible for Jak to be his own ancestor? He could still time travel from an unknown future to the past and still found Haven. The Jak & Daxter series was originally developed by Naughty Dog.
Follow me on Twitter: / vtnvivi - Ігри
Thanks for keeping jak and daxter content alive. Not a lot of people do that. I treasure these games.
No problem! It's fun :)
Hey VTNVIVI I have theory about Jak and his father. If Jak's father was ruler of Haven City which make Jak a Prince of Haven City?..
@Base Bass Forte um who’s melee? lol
Same here. I just hope the games get a remake for good graphics 😭😭💞💕❤️❤️❤️
5 years later still talking about jak and daxter
this has been fucking with me since i was a kid
I know right!
VTNVIVI I KNEW IT! THE MOMENT YOU SAID ASHLIN! I knew that I blamed the right person for this question. its all her fault why did naughty dog do this to us with that one myserious line that has been destroying my brain evrytime I saw the games on my shelf the one question that makes my knowledge on this series incomplete!
Hassasin it wasn't just Ashelin. Seem was nodding his head as she said it as well
Lmfao me too!
As you mentionned, a perfect Jak 4 story would be Jak going back to the past with the Precursors' help to fight the Metal Heads in Sandover village and the rest of the world. Then, after a while , to found Haven City as MAR and dying at the end of the game. That would be such a dramatic conclusion to the series in the same mature spirit that Naughty Dog make their current games but in perfect harmony with the Jak and Daxter universe and the first game's world to play in. Love this conclusion to the video!
Going with your theory, Jak did not travel to the past at the end of 3 he should be dead.
This is the only way Jak could be "the" Mar. Otherwise he is simply a descendant. Which is still cool anyhow.
Wouldn't that mean jaks his own ancestor since jak is a descendant of mar
Good idea but in Jak 2 they say that Mar died before getting to use the gun to crack open the metal head nest. Mabey he fixed that by defeating Kor in Jak 2 so i dunno mabey your right
I would be pissed off if jak got killed off x.x
'We want jak4'
But jak4 already exists
'?'
U kno the last frontie......
'Die'
Sam Van Cutsem Naughty dog didn’t develop last frontier which makes if shitty
actually technichally speaking lost frontier was originally the idea of naughty dog, they just didnt have time to complete it so they allowed another company to take over where they left off, but there ideas still remain
and because naughty dog did not make the last frontier it is not considered a real jak game
TLF was made by the studio High Impact Games which was formed in part by ex naughty dog staff, so it isn't as illegitimate as it seems. It's like when people say crackdown and APB are GTA ripoffs despite the original creator of GTA being the one behind them.
i liked that game, but it is not a jak and daxter, it is something similar to the final fantasy franchise, they are not actually bad games, but they are not final fantasies either
In some jak 2 deleted files,the computer that always welcomes jak back in haven city,says welcome back mar
I always liked to believe that he was Mar and the statues of Mar are not meant to resemble Jak but Damos. Kinda a way of honoring a father he only knew for a short time.
The simplest and most obvious reason why the statues don't resemble anyone: not to spell it out.
I mean come on, why is there a debate on the statues? Naughty dog built this intricate time traveling story for 3 whole games straight and you think they would just screw up up and give you the answer? No. It's very intentionally left unrecognizable.
@@CaptainPupu Tbf the statues are also of a fully grown man while Jak is only like mid twenties in Jak 3.
I think he as Mar, left his armor for his future self. Especially how the chest plate is just sitting there off to the side of a route that he knows he himself will take in the future
Jak was born in the future, sent to the past to grow up and come back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past where he can grow up and go back to the future and defeat kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past.Jak was born in the future, sent to the past to grow up and come back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past where he can grow up and go back to the future and defeat kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past to grow up and go back to the future to destroy kor and send his younger self to the past.
Yup pure time loop. I sometimes wonder if ND was drunk.
This was the shortest/longest but most simplest explanation of the time loop of the game. Thanks for explaining! My head was starting to hurt until I read your comment and figured it out (x
VTNVIVI Jak And Daxter‘s story is so unique. One of the very best stories I’ll ever know. I love the whole time loop part. Jak is constantly beating Kors butt.
WTF CHEESENIPS I totally 100% agree with you. Its one of the greatest stories ever. Jak and daxter is one of the best things from my childhood
yeah jak accidently created whats called the time loop paradox, it means that no matter what things have to happen in that order
From what I can tell they had plans on Jak going with the Precusors and traversing time and space but before the game was finished changed their minds on that sequel and made Jak suddenly appear behind Daxter at the end of Jak 3. It would appear that Jak sends himself back in time to grow up safe to travel back in time to fulfill his destiny finishing that loop. He would then grow further into a great warrior and eventually be sent back in time sometime after they (Jak 1 -> Jak 2) are projected into the future. Without the green sage and without Jak the world goes into Chaos. Jak (post Jak 3) saves the world and builds Haven city. Taking the name Mar. He eventually has children who have children who eventually birth himself. It's a closed Paradox.
Jak comes from the future as a boy. Goes back to the future as a teen.
Fights as a young adult.
Goes back to the past as a man.
Saves the world and dies a hero.
Time travel gotta love that stuff.
Jak is also the Heir of Mar but notice how the precursor statues in Sandover only called him Great Warrior. Maybe it’s the precursors trying to keep time moving in the right direction. If Jak found out that he was the Mar before he did those things, he might not have done them. Just like if he found out that he was the Heir of Mar before he went into the future, things might not have gone the way they did.
Nice take!
Gotta go back... Back to the past... Is Jak Mar?
Ziisss question I hope shall get answered one day.
Nicolas Boissiere they answered that. Yes he is
VTNVIVI it was answered years ago fucktard. Even before jak 3 you should've known, but jak 3 said he was, end of story stfu
Phil LaMarr?
donny f woah dude relax lol why are you being so aggressive man it’s just a video
Having played all the games from beginning to end I never questioned that jak wasn't Mar I thought it was pretty clear he was.
I agree. Its pretty self explanatory..."Jak is THE Mar?" Nods head to say yes. That's very cut and dry... that is not a subjective piece of dialogue...there is subjective content but not that.
Jak's Design from Jak 2 looks the best to me VTNVIVI, Jak looks way cooler with longer hair.
I prefer his Jak 2 model as well. As for Lost Frontier...
VTNVIVI So you've seen his model in that game? You should see Keira's! 😕
Agreed.
You can play as Jak 2 in Jak x if you have Jak 2 save data.
Shonen Jumpboy SO DA BOKUGA KIRA DA!!!
Jak can't be Mar... Even with time travel involved. The reason Ashlin says that at the end of Jak 3 is because she knew Damas. Knowing Damas she probably knew his son was missing and was called Mar, hence her surprise at the end of the game. It's all about context..
Could be very likely!
VTNVIVI I believe it is. Damas and Ashlin probably met at the palace in heaven city during the time praxis was trying to get rid of Damas. Knowing the Dislike Ashlin had for her father she probably created a friendship with Damas but never warned him of what was to come, either because her father never told her or prohibited her from telling Damas. I bet you this is right
Well being that Damos is the father of Jak, and that he intentionally wanted to name his son Mar. Jak kept the name dear to him since that’s what jak was left with when his father died. Soooo... when Jak goes back to the past to fulfill his legacy and make the city. He’s is the great innovator/warrior that will be known for all in his creation of haven city hence he kept the name Mar and not Jak. Funny thing too when Damos named his son after the great warrior Mar; it actually was Jak.. his same son the same person.
Yes 100% finally another person that knows haha xp
@@goldeneyegaming5439 Dude, the friendship between Ashelin and Damas actually makes sense. I never noticed it. Remember how she gave Jak a transponder so Damas would find him? I thought that was just plot convenience or a deus ex machina, but it actually makes sense.
Jak is clearly mar. No it doesn't make him his own ancestor. Easy explanation. He goes back in time sets everything up for past jak, expecially in jak 3. It's clearly obvious by how nicely everything worked out for jak. I mean those mine carts were conveniently set up to destory the robot and the catacombs were created so he could get back to haven city. Only jak himself would know to do that. Just like samos knows he needs to bring up kid jak for his destiny in ... saving himself. So jak goes back creates everything... then he finds his ancestors and puts them on the throne. So mar isn't actually an ancestor he's a decendent gone back in time. Now before you say "how can time be messed up like that" they already confused time with jak II so thats that. It's how the jak series works so jak being mar fits perfectly in the confusing time thiny. It also explains how mar disappeared. He didn't die he time traveled yet again or finally went off with the precursors. It also explains how jak got the name mar at birth. He was named after mar haha but he is mar.
Cool! If Mar aka Jak went back to the future, would it be possible that he went back to Daxter, the end scene of 3?
With time travel, one could leave and return at the time of departure, seemingly never to have left.
VTNVIVI yes I was thinking that as he deffiantly went with them. The doors closed.
kate clarke remember the warrior from rock village in the first game? mar is him and thats jak ancestor all the statues are made to look like. keeping jak secret
I was thinking this exactly
Jak is the mar. At the end of jak 3 the precursors banter with one another states, “in the future or is it the past”. Which means time travel will become available to jak. It is also at this point of the game that jak adopts the Mar name his father Damos gave him. I think jak went on with his life doing all the great things we heard mar did throughout the games, by going back in time. So yeah I think jak is the Mar.
So basically, he again goes back in time but older right?
Exactly. At least that’s the way I see it. He goes back in time after the events in jak 3, and basically sets in motion all of the events throughout the series. There might be plot holes I’m missing, but that makes sense to me. The only question I would have is, how did his family lineage even begin, but other than that, it all makes sense to me.
I always thought that Jak could have just went on some adventures with the precursors and then traveled back in time to that moment to come back so no one would have to miss him. it would be a great idea for a game if naughty dog could stop obsessing about a certain two other game franchises... but that's just me being salty...
We won't know until Jak 4 and at that point i'm afraid maybe the devs will have forgotten or have completely new writers that won't even know what to properly do to continue answering these questions.
MrButtsavage17 Naughty dog won't never go back to it. But I think someone else could make it. Like how sly 4 was. Jak and daxter story is far from over. To me. I really want them continue the series. But I want the voice acted who did jak and daxter in the 3 games and jak X. To return.
EXACTLY! They can easily end this debate by having Jak being the one who influenced his ancestor.
I agree!
There is a Jak 4. It's called The Lost Frontier
That's non canonical dude.
Explain this: Jak is wearing the armor of Mar when he goes into the precursor ship at the end of Jak 3. When he surprises Daxter seconds later in the cutscene, he's just wearing his blue tunic
What? He's wearing the same exact thing.
I think That is Jak after he became Mar and Made Haven city , Sandover village etc( Meaning Jak x jak is Him post being mar).
What if the statue is carved by the sculptor from Jak and Daxter modeled after the crying warrior from rock village.
I always believed that Jak was Mar, and that over time the details of his legend became more and more exaggerated, like with the Precursors. Instead of just saving the various villages, the story became that he built Haven City and did all these crazy things, then disappeared (which of course, Jak and the gang did ultimately disappear for hundreds of years). Over 300 hundred years, a widespread game of telephone is bound to happen.
As for the bloodline he had, I like to believe it began with Jak’s supposed uncle in the past. Again, like I said, with time travel shenanigans and hundreds of years passing between The Precursor Legacy and Jak II and 3, it’s not that crazy to believe that the people in Jak’s world slowly passed down a more and more exaggerated story. That’s just my point of view.
In the words of Daxter: "the more you think about it, the more it hurts the head"
Exactly.
VTNVIVI Kinda sounds like what most people think of Kingdom Hearts's plot.
My thinking is that he is the mar. He went back with the precursors and did everything and then came back and to the gang it seemed like a few seconds. More than likely before he came back, the precursors found one of his ancestors and told jak to give them the seal which would be passed down. I’d also like to believe that the original point of time travel by young jak and samos was set in motion by damas. Damas found the rift rider and maybe he knew samos already and sent him and jak to the past where he would be safe. When they opened the rift gate and went back to the future, the metal heads coming from the gate is what changed things and thats how we see the future we saw which will be in a cycle to repeat.
I respectfully disagree. Jak is *definitely* THE Mar in my opinion. The precursors allude to the idea that they’re going to bring Jak into the past before we see him leave with them and he appears behind Daxter. If the legacy of Mar began with someone who’s imbued with Light and Dark Eco, it would explain how Jak is able to survive Praxis’ experiments and he has such an affinity for precursor tech. Also I think the biggest thing to note is that Jak is wearing Mar’s actual armor. (but JX wouldn’t that mean he’s definitely NOT Mar because that would create a paradox?) If the precursor time machine Keira made during the events of Jak II *is* the one they find at the end of Precursor Legacy (as stated by Samos) then it’s probably safe to say the paradox not only doesn’t matter but serves in favor of him being Mar
I would love a separate canon that follows Jak leaving at the end of Jak 3
Imagine that :O
"Jak beats things all the time, Aye jak?"
You just fucking ruined my childhood
Hahaha! I can't believe I never noticed that until very recently. Not sure if everyone got the joke.
VTNVIVI I can't believe I've never noticed it either, until this video lmao
anonymous it's kinda sus that Daxter knows that but whatever
Jak and the statue did share resemblance. When Krew employees blow it, the head falls close to Jak so he coul see the face (this scene is here for a reason, and it seems a hint) and you could see that he had the same beard as jak, and a similar noise and exactly identical ears.
His chin didn't matches, but too many similarities to let this pass.
And at the end of Jak 2, Samos says that someday they will know Mar, and that he might be closely than they think. (I doubt he was talking about a random guy calle Mar too).
While it would be impossible for Jak to be his own ancestor, it was too for Keira to build a replica of a travel machine that his other self builded too from thoughts from the last one, in an infinite loop with no sense (and she pointed this).
What doesn't made any sense is Jak supposed genius with technology. The only one capable of this would be Keira, but it would be weird if Jak taked the credit for his wife? did.
Thanks for sharing!
Here’s one thing I’d say how Ashelin’s comment about Mar. Many dismiss Seem’s head nod as being confirmation that Jak’s name is simply Mar, but I think the head nod is confirmation that he is the Mar of legend. Look at these two sentences:
“Wait, VTNVIVI is Obama?”
“Wait, VTNVIVI’s name is Obama?”
For the first sentence, I couldn’t help but imagine the person is asking if VTNVIVI is the former president. It’s such an iconic name that it can only be talking about the most famous person with that name, and the second sentence would entail that it’s just VTNVIVI’s name without any inference to whether he is THE Obama or not. I think what this all means is that Seem acknowledged to Ashelin that Jak is the Mar of legend.
In the end, I think this is a question that is just getting way too deep into examining all sorts of intricate details of the franchise. I honestly think they never planned on Jak being the Mar of legend during the development of Jak 2, but decided on having him be the Mar we’ve all heard in the series. I know people would think it’s weird or disgusting that Jak is his own ancestor, but the series also has the paradox involving Keira’s time rift. Futurama made it so that the main character was his own grandfather, so it wouldn’t surprise me if the writers didn’t care if Jak was his own ancestor and the implications it may have.
Easy explaination.
The explorer is Mar. the reason he’s introduced as Jak’s “ uncle” is because they’re clearly blood relations but it would be weird to go “ this is jak’s great great great grandpa”
.
I think Mar(uncle) was sent to the past like Seimos to build haven city. Notice that Kor in the timeloop brings metalheads right to sandover yet we get no indication of how humans survived.
I think Jak’s uncle’s “ exploring” was really Mar scouring for resources to build haven city , and during the time after jak goes back to the past he succesfully defeats Kor or atleast keeps him
At bay before passing this mantle on etc.
Seimos would naturally be in on this as he goes “ that’s how it happened” when he see’s kor. This could be as to how jak came to the future BUT i think it’s more “ that’s how metalheads came to existence”
Sort of Time Line:
Jak 3 -> Explorer is born, possibly from Spargas -> Explorer goes back in time while young -> Explorer arrives before Seimos -> Helps Seimos integrate into society and “ adopts” jak and creates an alibi -> Goes hunting for materials ( possibly helps keira and seimos build things) -> JAK -> Seimos leaves past with jak, explorer stays and stops metalhead invasion -> Kor is defeated and goes back to the future to stop Mar from going back -> Can’t find Mar as he’s not born yet -> Goes to right around when demos is defeated-> settles on stoping young Jak (Mar isn’t around/alive when he kidnaps kid jak) -> Daxter -> JAK 2 -> Jak 3 -> Mar is born
One option is Mar/explorer is related or the son of Ximon from Daxter. This would make sense as Ximon has experience fighting metalheads ( also blonde and already made an appearance)
Or he’s a random wastelander kid
Could also be the son of Kleiver ( blonde + slightly resembles Jak ) or the son of Sig who actually resembles the mar statues / Looks like Demos
Or the "Explorer" *IS* Ximon, and Ximon went to the past.
Ximon has knowledge of *building technology,* and he already knows the layout of Haven City and its blueprints.
He's already aware of the Metal Heads and their threat, and knows how to defeat them.
And if you compare the Explorer with Ximon, they look identical in body shape and face shape. The Explorer looks like an *older version* of Ximon.
If jak is the mar he would be his own dependant
This jak 3 ending cutscence explains everything amd wraps the franchise up perfectly. Jak tells everyone call him mar in the cutscene, then the precursors tell him " you have more adventures in the future", but then the other precursor says "or was it the past" because his future adventure is to go back in the past and fuffil hos destiny as mar and build the tomb, catacombs, nest gun, haven city, etc. ..notice in the jak 3 ending he GETS ON THE SHIP , he goes fufills his legacy and then goes back to the future to the point he left and tricks everyone they think he never left. BUT JAK DID GST ON THAT PRECURSOR SHIP ! If jak didnt get on that precursor ship nothing would exsist because jak is mar, its loops the timeline perfect and ends it with a perfect explaination just use your head and analize the cutscene more.
This makes sense yes. What if the other precursor was referring to young Jak growing up in Sandover and starting all this? Hmm... If Jak did become Mar and went back to Jak 3, shouldn't he be older, I mean look at the statue. Also it's assumed Mar died, that would mean Jak should be dead. Then again, some think he disappeared, could it be Jak who simply went back to Jak 3? Now they can still make Jak Mar if the team decides to go with it. But for now, I feel like he's not Mar. Thanks for sharing.
I always thought Jak was Mar. Since Mar died sometime in the past, it would be easy to assume that Jak spent the last part of his life in the past (assuming Jak is Mar). With that said, the simple answer would be that Jak went back to the past to build Haven City AFTER all the Jak and Daxter games.
I feel like this makes sense for a couple of reasons. Mar is clearly older than Jak, so Jak's chronology would make sense. It also eliminates something crazy (like, going back to the past to build Haven City, then come back to the future without looking a day older, then having to explain that away by saying the precursors made him younger). This theory also allows Jak to be an heir rather than an ancestor, too. Finally, I could see how Jak would want to go by his real name (Mar), after seeing his dad die, knowing he's been searching for him. He builds Haven City under the name of Mar, and so the legend follows by remembering him as Mar. This all seems to work out nicely. Honestly, I don't see how this isn't the dominant theory.
With this theory... instead of waiting for a new Jak and Daxter game to come out, I've been wanting a Mar trilogy. The games would take place after all the Jak and Daxter games, but in the past where Jak/Mar builds Haven City.
I believe Jak is Mar. When baby Jak touched the egg he absorbed the power of Mar. Thus present Jak is Mar. Mar is the energy like the movie Avatar. Jak is the only one who can bring balance like the amulet is a ying and yang. He can use the power of mar to channel light eco and dark eco. Jak is only one to master all ecos including dark and white. When they make a new game they should have both light and dark slots create a light eco burst move. I think Mar is energy. The eggs is a part of the original Mar aka Present Jak.
It’s also cool that Jak had made these trials of the tomb to train his younger version to prepare that Jak to fulfill his legacy as Mar who created haven city.
What if Jak is actually Daxter
Boom!
It's a possibility
What if Daxter is Mar xD jkjk
Oh my your a genius! But I think that jak is actually jak... I know, what a surprise
I think the statue could have been a likeness of Jak in his older years. Remember, Jak was 15 in the first game and then he went into the future and was tortured for two years making him 17 in Jak2. Not sure how long of a time skip there was between the second and third game but by the time of Jak3, he would be in his very early twenties at most. The statue looks like a man in his 40's at the earliest. In my head-cannon, after Jak3, Jak becomes leader of Spargus to honor his father, Ashlynn is still in charge of Haven but many times insists to Jak that Haven City is his to rule by birthright but he refuses. Jak and Kira continue to become a thing and Jak takes a more "hands-on" approach to ruling which would justify gameplay as opposed to Jak just sitting on a throne and barking orders all day. Sig and/or Cleaver could be his top Lieutenants to rule when he is away on missions. Some time after in Jak4, after re-learning game mechanics and getting reintroduced and caught up with the story, Gal and Maia, after 300 years escape from their imprisonment in their Dark Eco prison. No need to justify their survival and lack of age as Dark Eco is so strange and unpredictable, that you can basically explain away almost anything with it. They will be more dark and justifiably insane after all that time, making them far more intimidating as returning villains. Jak would of course defeat them but along the way he discovers through ancient lore, more information about the original Mar and I like to think that Gal and Maia's plan would be to use a rift gate to travel back to their original time to fulfil their plan from the first game. When Jak stops them and is standing in front of the gate after all he has learned, it finally clicks. He is Mar and HE is meant to return to the past to found Haven City and fight back against Kor. Him, Daxter, Kiera and Samos, the OG gang would agree to return to their own time, finally and arrive back in Sandover village, which is now a warzone with Metal Heads fighting against the people of the village. The other 3 sages are there aiding in the fight. The 4th game would end with Jak, standing alongside the 4 sages, activating his light eco form and preparing for battle which would be the cliffhanger in prep for the last 2 entries of the second trilogy, in which Jak learns to grow from hero to leader as he helps build Haven City, along with Kiera and his friends. Kiera's smarts would help explain the creation of the Eco grid and the other impressive tech of the city. As for the whole genetics issue with Jak being his own great great great grandaddy, this is a VERY fictional universe that makes little sense when you really think about it so suspending disbelief is sort of par for the course. That's my general idea of how things would have turned out.
Interesting!!!
Valid points, but I'm still convinced that jak is in fact the Mar, time travel in this franchise is really weird tbh. Also, my dream jak 4 would be going back in time to found haven, a massive open world and the changing landscape would make the game feel modern, while keeping the basic gameplay loop (seriously, the only platformer shooter to have come out in this decade is ratchet and clank) and absolutely adorable art and animation style to remain authentic to the series. One can only dream
Jak is also Mar because when Jaks father says find my son Mar he is wearing the amulet. Jak has flashbacks and knows he is mar. Since baby Jak is Mar, green sage confirms Jak is Mar. Mar doesn’t exist yet. Meaning Jak created mar when he saved his younger baby self and sent back into the past. (Baby Jak who absorbed the power of Mars egg that kor tried to destroy) Mar wasn’t present because he was present and existed in the timeline aka Jak. Since Jak was touched by dark eco he was denied entry into the hall. But not baby Jak. Jak needs to balance the ecos and enter the hall or give up the darkness of dark eco some how, maybe using white eco.
Okay but the thing is, is that future Jak sees his younger self, who gets sent back in time (to sandover) grows up a bit to be young Jak, then is sent to Haven where he spends time growing into a young man, then continues growing to be older Jak, sees his younger self, who gets sent back in time to sandover etc. The reason Mar (Jak) wouldn't look older or have a scratch is because he hasn't got the yet and there would always be a new Jak to come along. Jak can still continue to grow and become the Mar after the 3rd game we haven't seen that far yet. But with that in mind just remember there will always be a younger Jak getting sent to sandover and going back to the future.
Thanks for hearting @VTNVIVI I just bought the Sly Cooper trilogy +Thieves in Time AND The Jak trilogy
Maybe it might not relate to Jak being Mar but I think something was going on during the time Mar was alive between the events of J&D:aPL and Jak 2.
In the game Daxter, when Daxter beats the final boss Kaiden. Kaiden tells Daxter “it doesn’t matter, it’s been written.. the city will be ours…”
When he said that, it’s like the Metal heads already knew they would take over Haven city because it’s been confirmed to them that in the future they will take it. When I mean take it, I mean how the metal heads took the western part of Haven City in Jak 3.
So I’m thinking somebody after the events of Jak 3 went back into time before Haven city was built or being built, somebody mentioned that the city will eventually be taken by the metal heads. Maybe Kor or someone else overhead that? Not sure, but the metal heads knew that it was prophesied that they will eventually take over the city.
Great video man :)
I like to think he is *the* Mar, bound by a cyclical "chicken or egg" paradox of inescapable destiny, where, through time travel, he is destined both to be born and to be the ancestral cause of his own birth.
In the same way that his peers incidentally named him Jak after his early future self who was named Jak for the same cyclical reason, Damas named him Mar after his late future self from the past who was named Mar for the same cyclical reason.
The entire thing is locked and Keira is potentially both his lover *and* his great great great great great great grandmother. So the real question is, does incest count if it’s a paradox?
Thank you sharing! Don't you just love time travel?
The more you think about it, the more it hurts
Well being that Damos is the father of Jak, and that he intentionally wanted to name his son Mar. Jak kept the name dear to him since that’s what jak was left with when his father died. Soooo... when Jak goes back to the past to fulfill his legacy and make the city. He’s is the great innovator/warrior that will be known for all in his creation of haven city hence he kept the name Mar and not Jak. Funny thing too when Damos named his son after the great warrior Mar; it actually was Jak.. his same son the same person.
Yay time loops!
With the fact that jak X exists and is made By the same creators of the jak trilogy, unlike the lost frontier, i would like to think that jak derived from mar and is not THE mar, and did not go back in time with the precursors as we see him grown in jak X, plus in jak 3 ending, when ashelin says wait, jak is mar? THE mar? She means the kid from jak 2 and not the creator of the city
The statue actually looks like the human form of the precursor leader. They got the same beard and hair style, just human instead of an ottsel. The precursor leader did say in Jak 3 that people wouldn't have taken the precursors seriously if they knew they looked like ottsels instead of humans.
That's why they were hiding this whole time, thought they wouldn't be taken seriously like you said. If they were humans before, couldn't they just turn back into humans, considering how the leader granted wishes?
That's a really good question. I don't think the precursors were ever humans before, however I do think that they erected statues of humans in their likeness to give the humans a sense of history, reference, and real legend. I never understood why they couldn't just temporarily "wish" themselves into human form, though...
VTNVIVI What about the end of Jak 2 where Samos says "Mar might be closer than you think" and then him and Pecker behave as if they know more about Jaks future than they're telling him? That scene seems to be one of the biggest indicators he actually is to me
That's definitely an interesting line!
@@VtnVivi I wonder what else it could be implying if not that jak is Mar
Jak 4 has to explain the precursor world and Jak's past more. if not, nobody will ever understand and how it actually all began. You know, I wouldn't mind a Jak 4 with the complete same asteathics as the Jak 3, and 2 game. I'd love to keep the old school theme going on and the continuation without manipulation and always wanting to have it realistic.
i do believe Jak is Mar just not THE Mar.
His father just named him after him.
Yea exactly
D4Y_ _LYTE Believe? Well he IS Mar. The Mar is just unconfirmed and unlikely.
Aura Guardian basically what I said lol
So it's also possible that Jak is not a descendant of Mar. If Damas just named him after The Mar, then Jak is just named Mar. I don't remember if the game mentioned that Damas is Mar's son, or grandson, or great grandson, but maybe just an heir.
In the first game, the oracle in sandover said: "I have watched and waited for the true hero to return"
So Jak will eventually go back in time, but not to the foundation of Haven.
Remember in Jak 3, the precursors say: "the dark ones have found your world again", meaning that they've been here before.
In real life history, many royal families have names go down throughout the family. King Name the third, King Name the fifth, Queen Name the second.
Jak could just be Mar the second. As Damas said: "Find my son Mar. He's wearing an amulet, just like it. A symbol of our lineage with the great house of Mar."
Jak also has almost no knowledge of technology or leadership. I don't see Jak inventing the eco grid and wall that will stop the Metal Heads. Like Vin said. "Actually, Mar was the genious." And I don't see Jak as being fit for leading a whole city full of people after Haven would have been built.
Jak is just a strong fighter and hero. Mar was a genios inventor and a great leader.
If Jak was Mar, that would mean that he was Damas's father or grandfather. Otherwise, Damas wouldn't have been recogniced as family and heir to the throne of Haven city after Mar dissapeared.
If Jak was Damas's ancestor, and thereby his own ancestor as well, then young Jak should have inherited both the light and dark that adult Jak posesses after Jak 3. But as it is stated in the second game, only young Jak has the pure gift.
Even though the light eco Jak recieves makes Jak feel better in Jak 3. It is not because the light eco cures the dark eco he has been tainted with, it just balances it out into light and dark powers.
As we see near the end of Jak 3, the planetary defence system shows that light and dark eco combined balance each other out and become more powerfull together than they were individually.
Unless enough time passed for Jak to gain such knowledge :)
This is going to be a very long reply, im going to tackle most of the major points you bought up, whether you believed them or not:
*Starting with Seem's nod*
Ashelin technically asked two questions - 1. "Wait, Jak *is Mar?" 2. "The Mar?" For some strange as hell reason, the fans who both argue Jak isnt The Mar and is always.. always.. always twist this scene. The ones who use it as evidence Jak is Mar are more faulted as.... *Seem only nods at 1.* not 2. Additional point: Note how theres no relief by the Precursors when everyone is made aware Jak birth name is Mar. Notice how the Precursors dont say anything like "it's time to fulfill your destiny, Mar". No relief nor manditory duty... in the conclusion game of the series. Jak isnt The Mar.
*Jak Traveling with Precursors via Time Travel at end of Jak 3*
As VTN said, Mar was confirmed dead (by Krew and a few others in the series), so Jak coming back alive contradicts the poor theory. "But what if Mar just disappeared instead?" Ok, well Jak came back ageless and on top of that, came back with no other changes to his character: no scratches, new clothing, even his maturity and mentality is the same. Moreover, Daxter [Game] and Jak 3 established that Jak needs Daxter and that they're an inseparable duo. Sure, Jak II seen separation, but that's Jak II not Jak 3. Objectively, Daxter would be present with Jak on key and major adventures. Ill go even further- Obviously Jak didnt have the knowledge nor leadership to build Haven City, the Eco Grid, the Eco Wall, etc by the ending of Jak 3, so going off thrn to be The Mar then is another stupid theory. Someone might then say "he learned during his travels", but that's pulling at straws. (Jak still couldnt even work on his own buggy in Jak X so I doubt he knew how to work with other technological things. Vin himself referred to Mar as a genuis, something Jak is not.) Just one more support; if Mar isnt dead, why is Jak the one the Precursors are both relying on to save the world and requesting his help? Why is Mar himself not trying to save the world? Why isnt Mar helping Jak? This is what supports the canon of Mar really being dead. Another debunked theory.
*Jak is not The Mar, as far as Jak 3 goes*
So we don't know for absolute certainty that Jak isn't The Mar, but we do know presently that he's not. Jak 3 went as far as confirming he is a descendant and nothing more. So, as of right now, Jak is technically Mar's Heir and named after him. He can become The Mar so the developers want it in the future, but as of right now Jak is only his heir, thus meaning Jak is not The Mar.
*Mar's Status*
Well VTN, Mar was actually confirmed dead in game by a few people (Krew even directly states "poor fella died before he could use it"). Whether its true or not, thats currently what we were told so we have to believe that.
*Mar's Statue vs Jak's build*
Theres really no logic behind requesting the statues to be altered to look like someone who doesnt exist, it's completely illogical. If people want to use the statues as a point towards Jak being The Mar then they need to say the statues can be Jak's future look, hence why it doesnt look like present Jak. That is actually logical. However, since im debunking Jak is The Mar theories, there's also the matter that Daxter isnt in the statues at all. Lastly, Mar was never stated to never have a sidekick through any context. Remember what I said above? But tbh, my 2/3 points (Daxter's existence as sidekick, and the mentioning of Mar having a sidekick) can be negated by the fact that both these instances were in Jak 2, instead of J3, where ND probably werent ahead in their game plan with Jak likely. J3 was only made 1yr later though, so who actually knows.
*Jak X: Combat Racing...*
Now this game is canon and takes place directly after Jak 3. The Dark Makers and Metal Heads have canonically been wiped out. But overall, Jak X is a very complicated situation. The game itself was only made to give ND more breathing room during their transitioning period as a company, with the founders of ND having left after Jak 3 and the PS3 being around the corner. A Jak sequel would have to take place after Jak X, and they'd have to pretty much make new enemy factions.
*Metal Kor's "You cant hide from me boy" line*
No offense VTN, but do you honestly believe Kor would refer to an older man as "boy"? His tone compliments the likely hood that he is referring to Jak, which he is.. so he is referring to Jak. Kor said you cant hide from me cause Jak was hiding in the past, but opening the portal destroyed his hiding position. Jak II went over this in the end "everythings going according to plan" and "you were hidden in the past on the hope that you would gain the skill to face me today, but Onin was wrong" -Kor. Note we nor the characters (excluding Onin) were made aware yet of the kid being Jak and him being sent back in time, so this supports the fact Kor knew already... hence explaining "you cant hide from me boy". What supports this further is Kor's lack of surprise when seeing Jak and friends in Sandover. If Kor was chasing after Mar at this point, he would have reacted to Jak and co to some extent, whether in facial animations or dialogue.
Overall, ND cleverly used false fore-shadowing (there has to be a better term for that..) throughout the trilogy alongside the main plot to keep things doubly interesting. The idea was that Jak is the descendant of Mar, but they wrote the story in a way that would fool people into believing he was or could be The Mar when that wasnt the actual reality. Like leading on but in a sophisticated, parallel way.
Thank you for sharing your own
in-depth analysis! I feel like you started writing an essay :P
1. Cool little detail you added there! True, Seem only nods at
question 1, where Jak’s name is simply Mar. Notice, when she said ‘The Mar’,
Seem was no longer on screen… subtle hint maybe?
2. Good points you have there. If Jak aka the Mar came back
looking exactly the same, why would he be THE Mar! And I also believe it doesn’t
suit him, building a wall, let alone building a whole city. After reading your
paragraph, it just feels like ND didn’t take the story seriously and just let
it be, implying Jak is not Mar. If such a question gets asked, I’m sure the
developer would’ve answered it in another game, which they didn’t… Honestly, I
think Ashlin caused this old debate.
3. Exactly.
4. True! But the fact that the characters think he got buried in
his Tomb is uncertain, which makes it seem like he could have actually disappeared.
But, who buried him?
5. If anything, yeah the statue’s figure could represent Jak
older version. True, it was never stated that Mar didn’t have a sidekick. If
Jak were the Mar, and having played the 3 games + Daxter, Jak & Daxter they’re
a duo, I don’t see one working without the other as you said. Or… If Jak is the
Mar, something must’ve happened to Daxter once Jak fulfilled his destiny. But,
it’s over thinking at this point.
6. Have never played Jak X. The way you explained could I guess
explain why they went with a racing game.
7. Let’s say Jak is Jak, simply a descendant. Mar is born
eventually, before Haven’s existence. Something happens. Mar (young kid comes
into contact with precursors) finds the precursor stone, something Kor was
after. We can say at a young age, Mar was trying to escape Kor. Honestly, Kor
just showed up in the past, and he didn’t care about what he saw unless it were
Mar. What happens next, Mar goes back to the future, only to end up in a time
where he starts founding Haven. Kor ends up further into the timeline, a time
where Mar is presumed dead and Haven is already built. If ‘’Boy’’ means Mar,
that’s one thing I can think of. But to me, theory 1 sounds more likely, where
he was referring to Jak yes.
2. It's not that ND didn't take the story seriously, it's just that "The Mar plot" is a sub-plot, always has been. Since it wasn't the main story, ND never had to actually fully commit to it or conclude it, though they still could have wrapped it up nicely, since they obviously had another cliffhanger alongside the "Is Jak The Mar" one to serve as a sequel hook. Well actually, tbh, not concluding that sub plot makes a sequel more relevant to have that (Mar) story concept in it, as opposed to forcing more Mar stories while it was already concluded. Look at Uncharted 3 as a prime example, going back to the Sir Francis plot after Uncharted 1 delivered a solid stand-alone story around him.
5. Daxter is saved by plot-armor (side-kick to main character) and he's a Precursor. *Nothing can happen to him*. Someone would try to argue Daxter could be chilling with the Precursors, but like I said, that can't happen because Jak and Daxter's personal are inseparable duo (Jak 3 established that, and Daxter [PSP], which took advantage of this when it had the luxury of having came out after Jak 3, did also, even if ND kind of ass pulled that concept, since we all know Jak doesn't truly need Daxter). If Jak outright denied going with the Precursor, why would Daxter need to?
Elaborating further, you'd have a weird, awkward occurrence with the series if Daxter was the only character between the two alive while Jak is dead, or even if Jak disappeared while Daxter was all that's left. Alternatively, it'd also be odd if Jak became the great hero WHILE Daxter was still alive, even in another universe (still makes Daxter look like a pointless character AND sidekick, unless he played a big role with the Precursors or heavily supporting Jak while he becomes the hypothetical Mar)... even worse if they reunite after Jak becomes The Mar. It's all just stupid.
6. Great game. Its reception is BS as it's a fine combat racer, with ofc its fair share of flaws (which many people exaggerate). Not sure if you like racers, but the world-building, story, cast, and voice performance is on par with the Jak series. It's a true Jak and Daxter game, just stripped of its platforming and replaced with racing. Since it's actually a racing game though, it doesn't deserve or justify the complaints Jak gets with its reliance on vehicle-play.
7. Yeah, he was definitely referring to teenage Jak.
I love this comment! I've had the same thoughts where Daxter is concerned and just never voiced it, 'cause...idk, I guess I thought no one would take it seriously as evidence. But their friendship is the soul of the series! I hope ND (or any company) never disregards this in favor of an "epic" Mar plot. I feel like that would be missing the point.
Mar could actually have survived it though. Just because Krew believes that Mar is dead does not mean that Mar is actually dead. Just like in Real Life people went missing and are declared to be dead Mar could just have went missing too. Maybe with time travel because it is almost certain to me that Mar traveled in time at some point or another. If Jak is Mar I don't believe he traveled back in time at that point in Jak 3 with the Precursors. It could have happened at any time later on. Just because Mar doesn't interact doesn't mean he isn't alive somewhere. It could have many reasons why he isn't helping. The major one probably being that he would fuck up the timeline.
I'm Mar, sup!! how can i help u
How's it going? Are you Jak bruh?
never heard of him!! o_o
The Mar But do you beat things all the time?
The Mar Hey i live in Haven City
Hi Mar, I'm Dad.
This one actually made me about theory about Jak's mother and about her being a light eco sage wich explains Jak's absorbing of Eco
Wanna hear it ?
And even how i think Damas and Sig meet
Another interesting topic! Yeah go ahead and share :)
VTNVIVI let's start by Sig and Damas is that the Sig was probably from Haven City and that they knew each other as kids while Damas was still a prince of Haven city and they probably first meet when Sig was defending a Crocodog from local thug. As the time went on he meet a young woman who was likely a light eco sage and they got their relationship he made her pregnant and on the day the Baron Praxis overthrew Damas and banished him along with his people and also at some point Sig looses his eye and Damas even forgot his wife and child wich would be that the mother was getting young Jak to safety and that she was brutally killed by Krimzon guards while swearing that Praxis will pay and that would be how Count Veger found him before losing him to the underground
My theory is that Jak's eco powers, is a divine gift. I like to think that Eco is actully sentient, and after the Dark Makers wiped out the Precursors and dark eco was close to overrun the entire universe, light eco chose Jak as the one to stop it, since the precursors themselves failed and they were the ones that created the Dark Makers menace.
In my theory eco is above the Precursors and wasnt created by them as the official wiki states. It existed since the dawn of time, and chose the Precursors as the race to sustain the 'balance' between the two most powerfull and opposite types of eco, light and dark. But their experiments with dark eco corrupted them and destroyed their civilization, and the dark makers begun to destroy every planet they stumbled upon.
Also Jak's family symbol is identical to the ying and yang, which is about the balance between two opposing forces. This suits Jak who has both dark and light eco powers, but the symbol was created by the first known ancestor of Jak, Mar. He is known to have worked closely with the precursors, so he probably got the idea and maybe even the symbol itself by them, because of their role to sustain the balance in the universe.
The precursors in the end of Jak 3 wanted to take Jak with them to show him the "universe". That proves to me that Jaks role in the first trilogy was just a small part of his adventures, and i believed that in Jak 4 he wouldnt be restricted to his planet anymore, and that he would start travelling to other planets to battle the Dark Makers and destroy them once and for all. The precursors said that "together we can win this war", which obviously proves that the dark maker ship in Jak 3 was not the only one in the entire universe, and that there are countless more out there destroying planets.
I like this theory. It makes a lot of sense and in retrospect is symbolized throughout the entire game series
"the noble will be assured of a place in history thus being granted a form of life to be forever venerated by their ancestors as one who lived a life of good" a little hidden message in the jak 2 oracle temple wall, and this is whate makes me think jak is THE MAR.
of course it was all written in precursor letters, and it's the most complex sentence written with those letters
U put so much effort in this old game respect. I've always questioned myself all this. Keep up the good work *subs*
Thank you so much!
The Daxter Theory remains the best in terms of detail, humour, thematic significance, and verisimilitude. It captures Naughty Dogs' comic vision and elucidates a level of subtext that was by no means beneath the Developers in terms of brilliance, innovation, and sheer ironic wit. Once you collect all the Easter Eggs in the script, (or Orbs, if you will,) it's the only theory that checks out, and let's face it: Jak never REALLY had a city-builder personality type, so the more "obvious" interpretation would be mind-numbingly childish. Since many of us played these games as kids, it only follows logically that it would take over a decade to get it. Read the enclosed Reddit post with delight and amazement. I know I did:
www.reddit.com/r/jakanddaxter/comments/cimbjz/jak_and_daxter_theory_mars_identity_revealed/
My Bovine Friend, Your Bias has My Confirmation.
[({M.M.)}]
I remember finding this on reddit :)
Thank you for the share!
(Theory) in the original rift gate when Jak daxter Kiera and Samos went to haven city, on the other side of the rift gate there’s an alternate Jak (He has the same story as jak 1 & 2) the only difference is, is at the end of jak 2, kor got through. So now kor and the metal heads are in the past. So Jak and daxter go after kor and all the metal heads that got through the rift gate. So there’s a war between the people and the metal heads. Then Jak realizes that he is mar so he founds haven city.
I like the analysis but I pose a theory. Lets assume jak did travel back in time with the precursors at the end of jak 3 and founded all of these things, his body was changed after the injections of dark and then light eco. Which could explain why the statue didn't recognize him in jak 2 since all he had then was dark eco in his system. Also in order for things to come out just right either someone who knew the future or someone who was told of what the future held would be able to make all of those stuctures exactly as Jak, and anyone else who went with him, would remember them.
I still don't know, Samos hinted at the end ofJak 2 - "I've got a feeling we'll meet Mar some day. He may be closer than you think". So what was with that? It was never explained as to what that meant when we know that Samos has some knowledge of what may happen in certain events, but it was never mentioned again? This is one of the many reasons that I wish Naughty Dog had done a 4th Jak game. It would have been amazing to wrap the series up with a final game centered around actually somehow meetin Mar, how Haven city started and what the heck happened between Jak and Keira and why Jak seemed more interested in Ashelin at the end of Jak 3? So many unanswered questions, Naughty Dog!
I'm more of a PC gamer now since most games are multi-plat anyways and is slightly cheaper on PC, but I used to love playing Jak on my PS2. And I've always told myself that the only that thing would make me rush out of my house and buy a PS4 would be if Naughty Dog announced Jak 4.
You'd buy a console just for one game? We're alike :P
amazing video VTNVIVI
Thank you!
At the end of Jack 3 it shows Jack getting into the ship to complete his task as Mar so he could have done everything that Mara has said to have done and then came back to the exact time he left using time travel to continue to be with his friends and have more adventures like it was foretold
If Jak is indeed Mar then he still needs to fulfill his destiny by going back to the past for the cycle to be saved and the future he exists in won’t be at stake. Because technically Mar’s past won’t exist if he stays in the future or dies. Time travel is confusing.
Indeed!
they specifically say jak is Mar
Yes they do, but not enough evidence.
VTNVIVI lol yes it is
Jak isn't THE Mar. His real name is Mar but he isn't Mar himself
Im pretty sure The Mar was his father, and names him Mar
@@crisco3680 his father was dames
I feel like jak could have been the link of PlayStation 👀🔥
Think about this: You put a lot of focus on Jak himself but think about Mar and Haven city for a sec. Jak got sent to the future; left sandover village and arrived in haven at the beginning of Jak 2. These places geographically are in the same location since Samos's hut is still there. Since Mar is the founder of Haven city, and Haven and Mar DID NOT exist in sandover village days, that would mean that Mar would have had to travel through time to arrive at Sandover Village to start Haven city the same way Jak traveled to go to Haven. This COULD mean that Kor traveled through time after Mar but instead of actually getting to Mar, Kor found Jak. Wouldn't it have been interesting if, right after Jak and the gang got shot into the portal, Mar popped out in Sandover village, able to start a new life and build Haven?
Hmm....Haven City is 300 years into the future. If Mar did build Haven that early, that would mean he eventually escaped through time due to Kor. For 300 years, people remembered Mar, not too far fetched seeing as how time travel was implemented. If so, then Damas and Jak are descendants far into the future.
boy this one... this has been on my mind for years, so many possibilities, Is Jak Mar?, Is He Just named After Mar?? man this is one reason they need to make Jak 4.
this was a great vid dude
Thanks man! Jak 4 should answer this question.
Also I think Jak's Mar. He has to be in some type of way. I just hope that he doesn't have to die in Jak 4, Daxter would be pretty sad about that. :(
Perhaps he still exists as a grown up man in a far away future. That could explain Mar's mysterious disappearance if he's not dead.
Shonen Jumpboy can I at least get a spin off
Shonen Jumpboy I
Even with time travel, there is no room for Jak to be the original Mar. It seems heavily implied that Mar is Jak's grandfather.
that would make a lot of sense
To quote Daxter: the more you think about it, the more it hurts the head
Yep!
Subscribed because your personality is interesting talking about these myths, you talk about quality games based on your channel. Please keep it up. You're a great UA-camr
That means a lot! I appreciate all the support :D
I enjoyed the video. You made some decent points but you kinda just shrugged off too many incidents that point to Jak being Mar. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
Quack!
So I wrote a giant comment on this but my battery died T.T so here's a summary: we're dealing with an alternate timeline converging with the original by time loop. The key to it is the power cells that open the precursor gate.
Original Jak/Mar never found them and so never went to the future. He still beat Gol and Maia but afterwards stayed in the past and laid the foundation for Haven City then died/disappeared and his lineage ended up with Damos and then kid Jak/Mar. That's the basis for the original timeline supported by the time loop you allude to (as without the time loop at all Mar literally wouldn't exist in any form lol... or depending on what paradox theory you subscribe to that could actually just be another diverging timeline but that's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down.). I believe the metal head invasion here was natural as well as the Hora Quan kinda just do that.
Our (alternate) Jak/Mar DID find all the powercells and so found the Rift Rider and went into the future creating the time loop and converging his timeline with the original where Haven was established. You can argue that his now abandoned timeline was invaded twice by the metal heads, once with Kor peering through the gate and letting all the other MHs out to ravage the world and secondly in the natural invasion assuming it still happens. We of course never go back here but it would be hell anyway without a Mar to even attempt to defend it (though again that's alternate timeline rabbit holing that can go a looong way).
Anyway in this time loop alt Jak of course sends kid Jak to the past as part of the time loop, and now in this alternate/true/converged timeline (since they all work in conjunction... another paradox!!) we have the events of Jak 3 IN THE FUTURE OF THE ORIGINAL TIMELINE OF THE FIRST MAR!. So our alternative Jak is really a version of Mar who went through different trials in life (diverging from him finding the powercells and opening the gate with the Rift Rider) in the future he traveled to while the first Mar who due to the time loop is kid Jak (which makes Mar his own ancestor and descendant while being neither - time travel lol ) making him and our Jak one and the same; built Haven city. That was quite hard to get out semi coherently.
Basically "Jak" is The Mar. Just an alternate timeline Mar who DID find the powercells and thus is living in the future of the root timeline via time loop, and the timelines converging. I guess you can kinda but not really argue he's not "Mar" because they don't go through exactly the same things, but they do up until they defeat Gol and Maia. So they're literally the same people until different things happen there. Yeah, time travel. You have all the completionists who just had to collect all those powercells to thank for this mess :P
Though considering Jak after Jak 3 goes on yet undiscovered adventures may have somehow found a way into the past ((because of what the Precursors say regarding his future "But dude, there are like way more challenges in the future"..."Or was it the past", though ND did say he didn't go with them in their ship and so did NOT time travel and later come back moments later)) to fulfill his destiny and build haven along with ((I'm assuming based on what is likely to happen in a Jak 4)) Daxter and possibly Keira (probably not Tess), then genuinely disappearing to go do other things, potentially journeying to other planets (since his past self would have picked up where he left off re: mars gun, the rift rider coordinates etc). This theory leaves a better setup for Jak 4 since it means the Mar/Jak we know is the only version of himself, just having time traveled at least three times in order to exist at all these different points in the story so he really will do everything that the Great Mar does (that the various nigh all knowing characters in terms of his story [Samos, the Precursors, Onin and maybe Seem] know the time traveling deeds of) which makes the big "Our hero!" the precursors in the ship shout more fitting as to them he has already saved the universe as that is what will happen eventually, AND in the past (but Jak didn't go with the ship so they never had the chance to thank Jak/Mar for saving the universe though that's not as important a narrative right now lol)
Of course there is no Jak 4 but it could well have explained exactly how he manages to get back in time (how they got a hold of a new time gate I do not know) with Keira and Daxter, who all go onto build Haven and then move on "vanishing". This also ties up the time loop eliminating alternate timelines and convergence since our Jak did everything that the supposed Mar did or was going to do. Also this means that the metal head invasion of Jak's planet was also purely because of the time loop as well (so the came through the time gate) and so no original timeline or alternate timeline need be considered.
This is all based on what the Precursors say and the potential story of Jak 4, and while it involves Jak doing a LOT of shit (a lot of which we have not seen) and time traveling that can screw with a lot of people's minds if you think the wrong way about how within the stable time loop he created Mar/Jak was actually BORN if he never actually settled down in the past and started his lineage having vanished before that since if he had had an out and out direct descendant it would have had been made a big deal out of (I'm not considering alt timelines again just gonna go with "lol, time loops and time paradoxes") this theory either way however still makes Jak his own ancestor while being his descendant making a true time paradox on top of the previously considered stable time loop (a stable time loop isn't necessarily a paradox because it can make sense, but eliminating the alternate timeline theory making Jak/Mar himself at every time period he is in it now does not really [but in a way kinda does] make sense and becomes a paradox). Jak then truly can be this great "Time Warrior" as he's some sort of paradoxical superhero that doesn't really exist; that saves and will save the universe.
But if he did settle down and have a kid near the inception of Haven (or just some time in the past) then there's no paradox just a stable time loop where he then goes on to do whatever and his existence (and Haven's, Keira's etc) is supported by the time loop where he's born to Damas and goes into the past to grow up, go to the future, and do everything we have seen and later (via time travel) have not seen. The paradox is really just in the uncertainty of it all since how the hell did he get back to do shit if the last time gate in Jak 2 fell apart after kid Jak went back in the first place?! Were there more on other planets? Did he get it from the precursors?! Can Keira even build something like that (made from precursor metal)? I'm stopping now. But all these theories can potentially work depending on what happens (which we don't know). I really really wish we did
You sure wrote a lot and I enjoyed reading this!!!
Now that I remember though. At the end of Jak 2 Samos did say that he believed we would meet Mar some day and that he may be closer than we think. Then Jak 3 happened and the whole Jak is Mar statement that happened where these theories started. So was what Samos said meant to be Jak 3? Or at least the developers did intend to go deeper into the Mar storyline and learn his origins.
Really stupid idea but I always wonder if it is possible that Jak did go with the precursors since it did appear he went on the ship. Did all these adventures, traveled through space and time, became Mar, fight the metal heads, founded haven city, grow old, and then as like a last attempt to escape the precursors sent him back and reset his age and he just acted like nothing happened. He did just pop out of no where with no one noticing after it appearing to go on the ship xD. Stupid idea but it always made me giggle to think Jak just popped off and then popped back in like nothing happened.
However it be really messed up if he was his own dependent. Unless he faked his lineage and never had kids and just appointed someone he became close to in this storyline to carry on his legacy. Or people just claimed to be his descendent and it just got passed on and he didn’t dispute it because he knew the future and that these people would be actually who he is descendent from instead and that someone had to claim it for his family to take its place as his own legacy. Weird. Or as the precursors put it. They fluffed up the myth a bit.
Your idea doesn't sound stupid at all!!! I too thought similarly and wondered, would the Precursors have turned Jak young again? Is that even possible?
VTNVIVI Well it also got me thinking. In that limited promotion dvd movie Sony did that with the Daxter recap of the trilogy. During that scene where everyone thought he left with the precursors at the end of Jak 3. Daxter thought he left as well in the voice over but when Jak reappears behind him he says “Oh I guess not, or did he?” And I don’t think they would of added that line for no reason. Possibly hinting that Jak did in fact leave or at least they wanted it to seem like there was a possibility for fans to speculate. I know during his finale recap he says Jak stays. But I still don’t think they would of had Daxter say that for no reason in the first place.
Makes you wonder. Jak did just appear when he clearly wasn’t in shot earlier. Unless he be using that invisibility skill to troll everybody.
Jak also seems a bit more balanced by Jak X so maybe he did have more time than we think to balance his eco and may have been given more abilities.
Still odd he could live this whole other life and then pop back in like nothing happened. Unless they also wiped his memory, sure he would have consented, so that he could live out the rest of his life like normal without the weight of his Mar life. For my theory I do believe he would have aged and would have been much older so a reset might of been necessary for him to adjust back to his old life and to have the fresh memories of the life he had left and came back too.
Honestly, looking back on it, they said Barron Praxis betrayed the true heir of Mar and became the new leader of Haven City. Damos was the old leader of Haven City, and Kid Jak was the rightful heir... And as we all know, Jak is Damos' son. I kinda pieced it together when Damos said, "But when I was the leader of Haven City."
And I still ask, why didn't Jak figure it out when he heard that? Or better yet, Ashlin knew Damos. She obviously knew Damos was the previous ruler and rightful heir of Mar before Barron Praxis, her FATHER, took him down. How could she NOT have known? Hell, the amulet and everything should've given away that Kid Jak was Damos' son. Hell, I'd FIGURE everyone would know if the ruler of their city had a child. Someone to be the NEXT ruler when the time came.
Just... Just something that boggles my mind a little lol.
Thanks for sharing :P
If they ever do a Jak 4 I hope it is still in the future and with the Ottsel trio as asdiviser to the player and that 4 leads into 5 where they do what you said about founding Haven city and 6 being about his mother bring from another dimension and being processed by another form of Dark Eco and jak having to save his mother from that hatred.
I honestly think it's a scripting issue. Without Ashelin's line, I'd have always just assumed Jak was named after Mar, I think everyone would think that. But it's the fact that they put this weird line of dialogue in the script that seems to bring it all up. I've been so confused for nearly 20 years as to why they threw that goddamn line in there.
I feel ya.
I always thought that Jak got older after the 3rd game, and knew he had to go back in time, and with help build Haven City and everything, and then maybe in this time period he adopts a child? And that child is actually one of his ancestors? Which would get rid of the “ones own ancestor” paradox. I like to think this is true (with variation) but I like to think the original Mar is an older Jak that went back in time (maybe in his 30’s or 40’s) and the statues of Mar could be an older Jak.
OR,
In the house of Mar, the lineage, every descendant is called “Mar” because they are reincarnations of the great warrior from long ago. Or maybe Jak himself is specifically a reincarnation of Mar,
Or “Mar” sort of means the “chosen one” as a title, and the precursors can sense that he is special (and Jak is referred to as “different” several times)
Or every “descendant of Mar” is actually the original Mar in a new carnation “a new body” if you look into reincarnation this could be entirely possible. So who “Jak” is, is actually Mar, but he doesn’t know he is Mar. Because every new carnation doesn’t know he is Mar until he finds out in life. Perhaps every person in this world has their own spirit lineage and the “chosen one” lineage is that of the house of mar. Just my 2 cents ✌🏻
That child adoption part does break the ''paradox''. Still funny, his great grandfather being someone who he adopted, still hard wrapping my head around that. If every descendant was named Mar, what about Damas?
If the precursors in Mar's Tomb really could "sense" whom the heir of Mar was, then they would've undoubtedly sensed that Jak was the one who would've been worthy of completing the trial; not young Jak. They probably also would've pointed out that young Jak and Jak are the same person, and yet again, they did not do that. They were only going based off the information that young Samos and the others were feeding them, that being that young Jak was the chosen one who had to complete the trial. This also means that again, the precursors in Mar's Tomb labeled young Jak as being an heir to Mar only because the people in the room were using such language.
Overall, this is such a non-issue that is WAY too complicated to have been intended in a children's game. Plot wise, it would be better to have Jak be THE Mar, because otherwise, having a secondary character who is The Mar only makes Jak hit the sidelines. Jak is obviously the star of the show and should thus be THE Mar in order to take his role as the protagonist to its fullest extent. He is the star of the show and should remain as such...
Thank you for sharing! Honestly like I said, it was SP's way of building hype and making people anticipate the next game, which didn't turn out to focus on Mar at all.
He’s not the Mar, but he’s descended from him.
Well if you know Futurama Fry is his own grand father so he can be a decent friend of himself
Maybe Mar it's just a title
Hmm... I still see it as a name :P
AngelitoCO very good observation
AngelitoCO this changes everything
My assumption is that Jak would go back in time to be Mar but I would imagine instead of having a direct child he probably would just have a successor rather than an offspring per se. But I also think the de-aging could happen. But we’ll probably never know lol
Awhile ago I posted a potential plot for a possible Jak 4 AND a Jak 5 and in it I came up with a story that could solve the Mar debate so that it pleases fans on both sides of this, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
So after an eco mishap in my story Jak (but not Daxter) accidentally goes back in time where he meets Mar and a young Onin where it could be revealed that Mar does look like Jak a little bit. The two are leading a historically famous raid on a different Metal Head nest as the Metal Heads have acquired a mysterious Precursor artifact, which Jak discovers to be a rift gate and realizing it could send him back to his own time Jak decides to aid them in the fight.
During the fight however Mar gets hits and falls unconscious which is bad as Mar's fighting skills is needed to win the battle or else all is lost, so since the two look a like Jak dresses up in Mar's outfit and pretends to be Mar where he inspires the troops and as a result wins the battle with only Jak, Mar, and Onin knowing the truth. Then after Jak defeats a Metal Head leader, Jak uses the rift gate to go back to his time but not before telling Mar that Jak will need a special weapon of his in order to save the world. I also see this encounter inspiring Mar to make the components for the rift gate in Jak 2 and Haven city as well as unknowingly inspiring a hiding Kor to find and use the rift gate in Jak 2 to take over the world.
This would not only please a lot of people but it would also cover several plot lines introduced in Jak 2 and 3 but what are your thoughts ?
I have a feeling that Damas is the Mar because he went missing and got kicked out of the city and his son could of been named after the Mar
Hmm... The way he was referring to the Mar makes it seem like he's a different person.
the mar existed likely 300 years around the time or after Kor invaded sandover village,I doubt damas could exist for that many years,either Mar is jak who traveled to the past or he's an ancestor.
No Jak is not _THE_ Mar. Jak was named after Mar who is a distant ancestor of Damas and Jak, which is why Jak is the heir of the House of Mar. He can't be his own ancestor.
Someone who thinks Jak IS NOT Mar? Wow, I don't see this often... 90% think he is. People compared this to Fry from Futurama, being your own ancestor apparently isn't as crazy as it would seem.
VTNVIVI I can't bring myself to compare the two. They're two totally separate entities that are not related in the least so they could both treat the concept radically different. Futurama can make Fry his own ancestor all they want, they don't have to have continuity either so they can change events from episode to episode if they want. With J&D they've written their story in stone basically. Not that science is greatly important in the games but being your own ancestor doesn't make genetic sense.
My personal theory is that Mar is simply an ancestor; HOWEVER, something I've wondered about is who the Warrior is in the first game. I personally think that he actually could have started the family that eventually gave rise to Mar. After they went through the rift the Warrior would have needed to fight the metal heads theoretically. Something you mentioned referencing what the Precursors said about "or was it the past" and Jak traveling back in time to influence Mar, I kinda thought maybe they could do that but instead they visit the Warrior. Notice the similar hair color?
VTNVIVI But something I never could figure out was Jak's "Uncle". Who is he?!?!
Believe me, making one your own ancestor I can't wrap my head around either. So you're saying the Warrior could be from their lineage? Could be. Whatever Jak did in the first game caused the events to actually take place, like Mar and founding the city. So, if young Jak were not to return to the past, it would mess up the time loop and change history.
Someone clearly didn´t watch Futurama....
Vut I think Mar is more of the TITLE of the leading member of the house of Mar. It doesn´t make sense that Mar build Havencity and the Ruins under Havencity. He is obviously different Persons in time that share the same name /like the Hero of time in loz is always named Link).
I think the best way to think of how it might work is thinking of possibilities with time travel.
1: Mar being Jak growing up in the past never activating the rift gate causing time to progress with creating haven city.
2: this is a stretch but at the end of jak3 he did and didn't leave (almost say a tone clone???) He got on the ship going who knows where and he also could have stayed behind. In daxters words "the more you think about it the more it makes your head hurt"
Jak could still go back in time and live as the Mar and return to Daxter in the future. But, how did Jak turn young again right?
you never know with those precursors. They could have shifted time for Jak to prevent his aging. He could have indeed gone with them and returned at the same time of departure. Seemingly not to have left at all.
wait so Jak & Daxter can never go back home to the Country where they came from then or are they stuck in Spargus forever
Its not a theory. Jak is Mar
How do you know? Wait Ashlin said that???? Not enough to convince the whole community.
It's quite obvious that kid from Jak 2, child Jak, is Mar. Damas says Mar is his son, and Jak himself says Damas is his father upon his death in Jak 3. What more proof do you require?
Damas also says that they're from the house of mar, as in they're descendants.
Ace Hunter Blake I don't think you saw the video, we know his name is Mar, but is he THE Mar? The one who built Haven City? We know Damas named him Mar. It's just a name. He probably named him AFTER Mar, but he may not be the Mar that they built the statues for.
maybe mar was a close friend to damous and jaks family and gave them the house of mar to continue his Legacy
That sounds like a neat idea.
“Mar was clever! He hid his tracks well through time”
I think that it could be the time loop that that version of Jak we saw in two could've gone different ways and that Jak is just a particular version of Mar that wasn't the same one. They're all "Mar" Or descendants of "Mar" Being the young Jak. Almost a paradoxical type deal where there are a shitton of different "Descendants" all coming from the same time loop but going different ways. They all followed similar paths to create a path for the one chosen "descendant of Mar". Thats just my theory.
Jak is probably not the mar but a descendant of Mar. since they did say the house of mar it's probably like a clan of some sort
Here is the thing, I played through jak 2 about 2000 times. One line from the mouth of a metal head, actually the metal head leader post reveal at the end kinda indicates he is.
playing through the games recently i recalled them referencing that damos was part of the mar bloodline (hence the armor given to jak) and by extension jak. just going off memory, i love these games
Jak 4: The Legacy of Mar
Nuff said
Of course he's the Mar. He just hasn't done all the amazing things yet.
Yes he can be his own grandfather, the reason is because of all the eco changed his dna making it possible
I think the beginning of a jak 2 is Kor chasing after Jak and Samos the first time they went back in time. But ended up going too far and ended up there. Its the same kor in the future, just about 18 years younger.
What if Jak DID go on the ship and the Jak who shows up afterwards is him from the future
who knows if there will be new Jak and Dexter games where we will know the true identity of mar ?
I think in the end of Jak 3. The oracel cloned Jak and send one to the past and one remained in the present.
O_O
Since, Jak 3's ending mentions going to the past and Mar's statue looks like someone else. It may be that Jak helps Mar's father and refers himself as Mar to hide his identity but then dies at some point. The founder of haven city (Mar) would grow up hearing about Jak (as Mar) being a great warrior with many achievements and thus tries to match Jak's achievements by creating the shield around haven city. Also, Ashelin's comment about Jak being the founder of haven city is probably just to hype up Jak 4 (if it ever gets released).
Intriguing!
This actually makes perfect sense! I hope naughty dog continues the series soon. I know it’s a huge possibility they might not but I hope they do:/ I love it
I doubt they'll ever return to the series. I'd say it's up to a new developer to approach Sony.
In the theoretical Jak 5 game. Jak goes deep into the past and becomes Mar. builds haven city and the shield wall and adopts a son before he dies while striking a deal with the precursors to tie the time loop.
Alsoooooo ONIN is kiera