I remember a passage in which Frodo and Sam saw two orcs arguing. It quickly turned violent with one killing the other and running off. Frodo explained that it was the nature of the orcs: in the absence of a common enemy or powerful leader, they would turn on each other because hatred and violence was all they knew. It makes sense that, after the destruction of the Balrog and the fall of Sauron, the orcs of Moria as well as Mordor began fighting each other. Dwarves, Elves and Men killed the larger, more organized groups with strong leaders while the smaller bands killed one another until there were none left. I believe that the message J.R.R. Tolkien would want to send with the fate of the orcs was that hatred is poison, and those who only know hate will, eventually, destroying themselves.
@KuK137 Actually, a lot of people knew Sauron survived the war against the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, they just didn't know where he was. He could have been helping the various tribes of orcs by secretly training and installing power chieftains to prevent infighting until he was ready to move openly. Remember the Witch King's war against the Duninine?
@@KuK137 yeah, they are capable of forming their 'petty kingdoms' and there are myriads of tribes and orc peoples who would have their own feuds and treacheries and strife, only a strong leader can pull them back into unified single horde :), a great orc chieftain like Azog or Bolg were able to rally the tribes of Orcs (along with other motivating factors, seeking revenge for Great Goblin's death, wanting piece of treasure and resolving to "wind dominion of the north"), the petty realms and orc clans would be fighting each other and preying on other folk as they always did. In any case I imagine for a long while the situation in Fourth Age with Orcs would be like it was at the early beginning of Second Age: "But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command. And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction." In The Hobbit we also hear of the Orc/goblin allainces with other folk, including 'wicked dwarves' so they could have formed some relations with various renegades of other races and peoples...and of course as always there was their alliance with Wargs.
I got the impression that Aragorn spent the first few years after being crowned dealing with enemies, alongside Éomer of Rohan, and that at least some of these battles may have been with the remaining Orcs
Probably. There was Goblin Town in the Misty Mountains. Assuming they didn't fight in the Battle of the Five Armies they might have been reduced during the fighting in the north while the siege of Minas Tirith was underway. Some must have remained. I'm assuming what is meant though is human foes. Scattered remnants of the Haradrim in southern Gondor, Easterlings in Erebor and Rohan, Dunlendings. Basically the same foes that Gondor had been up against for centuries.
@321CatDaddy the two are one and the same. Cleansing the lands both protects it for future generations and ensures the safety of the present generation
I've read the Appendix in Lord of the Rings and other things like Unfinished Tales and I was under the impression Aragorn routed out the Orcs. I also think that Elrond's sons stayed around for a while too. Having read snippets from all over I'm not sure where I get this impression from. I certainly think there was a hunting of Orcs, Trolls etc.
As the unpublished epilogue of Lotr has it regarding Moria: "Dark places still need a lot of cleaning up. I guess it will take a lot of trouble and daring deeds yet to root out the evil creatures from the halls of Moria. For there are certainly plenty of Orcs left in such places. It is not likely that we shall ever get quite rid of them." So yeah, there are plenty of places where Orcs would live afterwards in Fourth Age.
@user-us3zg1vg4f who they are technically bound to doesn't really matter in the long run, defeat and destruction of Morgoth didn't make them all die out so Sauron's defeat won't either unless in som far off future day. And that's the point of my message right :) to point out there are plenty of dark places in the world, and areas where the Orcs would be active? :) Misty Mountains, whole of the Ered Mithrin, Grey Mountains and other places would be still having a lot of them....the remnants of Sauron's armies that were not destroyed (or killed themselves or through infighting) would disperse into the world, meeting with the other previously semi independent (but still often in allegiance with Mordor or indirectly controlled through Sauron sending his servants among them) orc clans and tribes....they would prey on the other peoples, raiding and pillaging etc. and there would be orc remnants to deal with on Gondor's borderlands for years to come.....
@user-us3zg1vg4f can you express yourself clearere next time? As for the whole deal with Sauron and so on...he was assuming leadership over Orcs already under Morgoth but later after the fall of Thangorodrim it was Sauron who became the ruler of Orcs and managed to dominate them in many ways even stronger than Morgoth: "But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command. And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction. It is thus probably to Sauron that we may look for a solution of the problem of chronology. Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, he remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable of calculation. At least in the Elder Days, and before he was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating him, and endeavouring to become himself supreme Lord of Middle-earth. While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice." Which of course doesn't exclude possibility of the semi independent orc tribes and clans who are doing their own thing...indeed in Second Age they did set up on their own but Sauron managed to dominate and control them...and also he managed to breed them further experimenting and so even breeding a new breed....uruks of Mordor who were so ingrained into his service they would kill themselves on his command.
@@fantasywind3923Dude, I really hope you found that online somewhere to copy/paste here. I'd hate for you to have done all that to go against a nonsense argument.
I've always read Sagrat and Gorbag's desires to set up on their own as to be a bandit band, doing their evil for their own benefit not that of a big boss. I don't see that as an arguement in favour of their possible redemption
Yeah, it sounds like the orcs were living in small bands attacking each other and other groups for the 3000 years between Sauron's fall at the end of the second age and the events of LOTR.
I hold with those who say the orcs would eventually kill off each other. Melkor had created beings that were the antithesis of the elves they’d once been. They were vessels of endless selfish hostility, by design, and, like with the dwarves,we never see any female orcs. Apparently, the evil soldiers that assaulted Helm’s Deep were “grown” and killed anything they found when freed from their birth sacs. They were purpose built as useful, hostile idiots given purpose only by evil leaders. 12:38
Not being under the thumb of a strong and violent dictator opens up the possibility of doing things better if they live long enough. They have a better chance (better than 0%) of recognizing their faulty ways and doing better. They may start out as doing just as much bad bc that’s all they knew originally (it’s their skill set) but they now are not coerced to not learn other things.
@@rincasarff5200That isn't how Tolkien's lore/worldbuilding really works though. The powers that shaped Arda poured themselves into their creations and Morgoth/Melkor's cruelty, hatred, and desire to dominate was poured into twisted forms of life. Morgoth's fall and subsequent creations were in response to him perceiving Illuvatar's unique Secret Fire (the true ability to give the spark of life) and desiring to possess it for himself. This core motivation is totally alien to literally any acceptance of the life he had and subsequently this core self-twisting character trait was also imbued into the core of everything he (and later Sauron) spawned. Redemption requires the fundamental ability to accept yourself for who you are, that you're not 'god', and that you can be something great already with the life you have. Orcs would be broken attempting to internalize any of this in the LotR mythos.
After the down fall of Sauron, those Orcs with enough will, fled to dark places in the mountains. It has already been seen in Tolkien's works that Orcs can survive & grow without Sauron & Morgoth.
It did not mean they could survive just because they ran away. They would need an evil shadow to guide them and shield them. I do not think people understand how vile they are.
@@Art-is-craft Not really sure where you get that impression. They just need food, water, and shelter from sunlight to survive. Not some "dark shadow to guide them" Sure they would more than likely need something along those lines to rise up again and start another war, but not to simply survive. They could absolutely do so by continuously running away lol
@@Art-is-craft The thing with Orcs is, they are still children of Iluvatar. Corrupted by Morgoth, but still apart of Arda. Foul & terrible beings, but things like that have a habit of surviving. Point in case, Durin's Bane.
I was unaware of what fate the orcs had after the return of the king. It was very nice to hear an explanation since I honestly hadnt even really thought to question it. It seems equally likely to me that they hold on in greatly diminished standing in truly far places, or that either by hunting or their own nature died out.
What did Tolkien write about Goblins in "The Hobbit"? "They did not hate Dwarves in particular, and in some places evil Dwarves made alliances with them" (paraphrase). So that implies that they could coexist with other races, if it was in their own interest to do so.
And leftover mithril would make a fine initial capital for that... bank. Compound interest would do a lot of the rest! ...Sauron had amassed mithril in the treasure vaults of Barad-Dûr.
@@dclipper8052personally i like to think of it as a cultural distinction, goblins refers to those specific orcs living in the misty mountains (especially mt. gundabad), who exist independent of sauron, saruman, or the witch king.
The orcs live on. I remember something perhaps in the introduction to the LOTR saying in modern times descendents of the orcs were often designers of weapons of war etc
Your eloquency has captivated me. Subscribed. And, adding to the disscussion: It is possible that a swift death could be more merciful for a tortured soul twisted beyond the possibility of healing, than it would be to let it be in misery for longer. Pherhaps their original design and purpose would resurface within the Halls of Mando. Pherhaps that way they could face a thriving existence aligned with their original purpose.
Tolkien actually said in a reply to a fan latter that orcs, or at least their heritage (remember, they CAN breed with men) existed right up until the present day. As for where they would go, it might not be quite as bleak as it sounds. Aragorn made Mordor a "free state" meaning ANYONE could settle there. He no doubt made sure the borders were well patrolled to keep an eye on them, but so long as any stayed in Mordor, they were free to govern themselves. The area of Mordor around Barad-Dur was indeed a wasteland where little to nothing would grow or thrive (at least at the time of the fall of Sauron*) But that still left Nurnen in the South and all of the land to the East. Granted, this land also would hold the now freed Men who had been Sauron's slaves in his farms and mines, but depending on how numerous they were, and how interested in vengeance, small bands of orcs might be able to exist there in some safety. As for their lack of mention in The New Shadow, Tolkien only ever got to page seven of that idea, who KNOWS what would have come later.
To add the footnote that was supposed to go with the asterisk, as someone pointed out, volcanic soil tends to be super fertile. So if, with Sauron no longer there, the weather improved and the air cleared up (no more smoke from all of the war factories,) even the area around Gorgoroth might spring back quite nicely.
"So it was that they did not see the last stand, when Uglúk was overtaken and brought to bay at the very edge of Fangorn. There he was slain at last by Éomer, the Third Marshal of the Mark, who dismounted and fought him sword to sword." . Now a Knight would never dismount to fight a commoner, but a Knight would dismount for fairly fight a dismounted Knight, and Tolkien surely would be aware of this, so to my mind, when Eomer dismounts to fight Ugluk Sword to Sword, and Peer to Peer; he is recognizing this warrior as a peer. Warrior to Warrior. So I don't think Orc's can ever be good, but I do think some orcs, their captains, and especially the Uruk-Hai can have a twisted sort of Honor, it is a dark honor as they serve a fallen cause, but I think the best of the Orcs, Ugluk and his peers serve their cause with Loyalty, and Discipline, heedless of their losses. . Think of all the Orcs Slain at Helms deep, I think Orcs could and would be capable of great sacrifice so long as they thought their side would win a battle, but once it seemed that the winds of fate were blowing against them, their natural cowardice would cause the great mass of Orcs to flee for their lives. . So I do think in the Uruk-Hai Tolkien is telling us the Orcs are not utterly corrupt, but like his friend C.S.Lewis observes in his own writings, Evil is weak on its own, Great Evil must come from the potential for Great Good Corrupted. In Ugluk we see a great captain corrupted. IMHO.
I think its also meant to demonstrate the shift in the world. All these battles fought had humans on the back foot. Defeat was inevitable if not for the intervention of others. Gandalf and the rohirrim, Aragon leading a rear assault at Minas Tirith, the eagles intercepting the nazgul and their felbeasts. Finally Frodo destroying the ring while the armies of men bought time. After all this, men hold the advantage. They are scouring the orcs. But this gesture shows that those times are past. Middle Earth is to be ruled by mortal men. This enemy that has oppressed them for centuries. I will fight you. I will meet you on equal ground. And I will win. There's no more tricks. Hat pulls or anything. Men will rule over Middle Earth without needing the help of immortal elves or divine beings. They stand on their own two feet and succeed
Yeah the Orcs are capable of possessing more positive virtues and traits...they can be brave, have loyalty at least towards their chieftains and so seek revenge on their deaths and comrades, they have notions of acceptable behavior like leaving comrades behind is bad (though they will do so hypocritically if the need will call for it: "The big fellow with sharp sword doesn't seem to have thought him worth much anyhow - just left him lying: regular Elvish trick."/"D'you remember old Ufthak? We lost him for days. Then we found him in a corner; hanging up he was, but he was wide awake and glaring. How we laughed! She'd forgotten him, maybe, but we didn't touch him - no good interfering with Her.'" They certainly can socialize and cooperate when there is a need for it. At times they help each other when they promise support, even share loot, but often are treacherous they have feuds and strife of their own can betray each other "'Not our orders!' said one of the earlier voices. 'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.'"/"Though Orcs will often pursue foes for many leagues into the plain, if they have a fallen captain to avenge ..." "'I gave him better than I got, but he knifed me, the dung, before I throttled him." They like to have fun and enjoy themselves: "While Goblins quaff, and Goblins laugh Round and round far underground "/"There they fell to carousing and feasting on their booty; and after tormenting their prisoners most fell drunkenly asleep." Obviously they have cruel idea of fun or 'sport', torturing people for fun! The Orcs at battle of Hornburg also....knew and accepted the rules of parlay :)...they stopped shooting when Aragorn gave sign for talks :). "At last Aragorn stood above the great gates, heedless of the darts of the enemy. As he looked forth he saw the eastern sky grow pale. Then he raised his empty hand, palm outward in token of parley. The Orcs yelled and jeered. "Come down! Come down!" they cried. "If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come. Bring out your skulking king!" "The king stays or comes at his own will," said Aragorn. "Then what are you doing here?" they answered. "Why do you look out? Do you wish to see the greatness of our army? We are the fighting Uruk-hai." "I looked out to see the dawn," said Aragorn. "What of the dawn?" they jeered. "We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?" "None knows what the new day shall bring him," said Aragorn. "Get you gone, ere it turn to your evil." "Get down or we will shoot you from the wall," they cried. "This is no parley. You have nothing to say."
@@mullerpotgieter I don't think the idea that men will no longer require help from divine beings hold true in the LotR universe. Tolkien is a devout Catholic, and both Catholics and Protestants believe in the tenet of relying themselves on divine providence. Sure, one must act and do his/her own part. But his/her life ultimately lies on the hand of a Divine Being.
This isn't canon or anything but, I remember fondly of a scene from the movie "Lord of the Rings: Return of the King" by Rankin-Bass where Frodo and Sam (mainly Frodo) were imagining a world without war and the orcs lived peacefully amongst the other races of Middle Earth. They lay along side a road that ran through the Shire smoking on their pipes and enjoying their day when they see two orcs, side by side, walking towards them unarmed and unarmored. They waved at each other like good ol' neighbors and was a very heart felt portrayal of what Hobbits would want the orcs to have a peaceful exisitence after the war but alas, that is not how it is to be. 😥
Not all the Orcs were under Sauron's influence. So they were acting independently. If they become good or staying evil, they would turn evil again, when Melkor returns for the Dagor Dagorath. They are part of Melkor and they can't escape that. After Sauron's fall, Orcs maybe went in the underground with the Namless Things, patiently waiting for Melkor's return. At that point Melkor would use all these creatures in the final battle.
All orcs were under the influence of Sauron. They could not exist without that dark evil shield. Even when they were not under the spell of Sauron they still enacted his will.
@Art-is-craft Orcs are Melkor's creatures. They don't all respond to Sauron. If Melkor was there, they would leave Sauron alone. Or to better saying it, they would be slaves of Melkor, Sauron included
I have NOTHING but applause for such a well-thought and well-presented lecture! Coincidentally, my Tolkien writers' group were discussing this very topic, and I'm pleased to see I used many of the arguments you presented - and you also presented new information for thought. You, mellon nin, have earned a subscriber this day!
I hope you keep making videos! I find your presentations and voice very conducive to imagining the lesser known portions of a literary world I so enjoy learning more about. Well done
I believe, in the world of Tolkien, that the only "redemption" the Orcs could have would be death. That, in fact, the Orcs that killed themselves after Sauron's fall were the most redeemed for they saw the evil they had done and thus removed themselves from the world. Death is a gift, after all, and it may very well end their suffering.
Since orcs were a corruption of elves, and in mockery of elves, once the elves had left Middle Earth the original purpose of their making was also gone. And natural laws have a way of in time purging that which is not natural. So I think it may be that without some "dark lord" like Morgoth, Sauron, or Saruman to maintain and further develop orcs, Uruk-hai, etc. that ultimately their lines would fail and die off.
@@nabilchaouli3489 lol true, though they are both of the same really. (Edit: lol from what I can see, UA-cam has censored the comment I originally replied to?)
I personally like the idea that when Aragorn’s first days as king was to track down the remaining orcs and kill them all once and for all. Another dark lord may arise and use the orcs (something to think about)
Actually yes, king elessar leaded great armies into Mordor and the Ineer sea and layed waste to the realms of the dark lord and his warchiefs releasing all slaves (massive ammounts, a nation of slaves) there and giving them those lands to live and prosper afterwards. This was done almost immediately after the fall of Barad Dhur.
No dark lord was arising once the One Ring was destroyed. If dark lords could just randomly spring up like weeds, no matter what, the entire journey towards Mt Doom for Frodo & Sam would have been pointless. And in his evil wisdom & cunning, Sauron wouldn't have opposed the hobbits so strongly to protect the ring if dark lords could just spring up willy nilly. Let's be careful not to replace Tolkien's stories with our own copy & paste speculations.
Genocide sounds quite bad to me. In general, just because Tolkien made it easy in dehumanizing orcs, so that it is ok if they got killed, they are still thinking, feeling, living beings and as such a genocide of them would be still a bad deed.
I've always thought that it was fortunate for Tolkien himself that he didn't continue on with Middle Earth after LOTR, or at least didn't publish anything more. Because the orcs would present a huge problem painting a rosy picture of Aragorn's reign. The orcs only power was in numbers. They weren't shown as organisers or generals or builders, nor does Tolkien characterise them as individual beings and what they might be capable of. But it's clear that it's unlikely that there would have been wars between orcs and men, or staged battles. The orcs would just be trying to survive in a changed world, where they had no friends or supporters, pushed to the peripheries, where resources would be hard won and come at grievous cost when humans sought revenge and retribution. What I'm saying is that I can't see any way in which the story could be taken further that didn't show that there would be pogroms and a war of extinction waged against the orcs. And that's not going to paint the good guys in a nice light.
That is not true at all if I remember right. Orcs were mentioned by tolkien as organizers, builders and generals. Also Tolkien mentions several individual beings. Just because the majority seem like nameless hordes does not mean that they do not have names, every single one of them. In fact Tolkien even writes about orcs that they are quite handy miners and builders and that they are able to create weapons of the quality of men easily, even thou made in crude designs. So orcs could easily live without Sauron. As their hierarchy is based on the "strongest" simply one big brutal orc would become a new leader for them and when it comes to surviving probably no other species can hold their beer.
Really enjoyed this impressive video essay, thank you for posting! "Until much has been done by the restored King [Elessar]. the P. [Prince] of Ithilien [Faramir] would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants..." [Tolkien, Letter #244] An indication that Tolkien envisaged an 'orc-remnant' population, even after the fall of Sauron. And, as you say, orcs had survived a lengthy previous interregnum between Dark Lords. Indeed, so much so that some tribes remained willfully beyond Sauron's domination, well into the Second Age: ""But further East there were more and stronger kinds [of Orcs] , descendants of Morgoth's kingship, but long masterless during his occupation of Thangorodrim, they were yet wild and ungovernable, preying upon one another and upon Men (whether good or evil)... while the Eastern Orcs, who had not experienced the power and terror of the Eldar, or the valour of the Edain, were not subservient to Sauron - while he was obliged for the cozening of Western Men and Elves to wear as fair a form and countenance as he could, they despised him and laughed at him." {The Nature of Middle-earth, 3.XVIII).
Sir,another fine entry,you have a soothing voice,perfect for storytelling… hopefully in the future you will touch on the little known regions of Middle Earth & the fate of the Blue Wizards 😊
Considering Tolkien mentions in the Hobbit that goblins *possibly* having a hand in the creation of nasty weapons such as he faced in WWI, it may be he was allowing the possibility that some remain, though of course in greatly diminished capacity, to this very day.
Yes, I agree. Rather than diminished capacity I would assume Tolkein would go for admixture which I think is a correct choice from a writerly perspective (mine but I think I'm not being off or idiosyncratic here). Dude was a bit of an odd chap sometimes but a lot of his choices once you accept the fashy fashness as a kind of autistic naivete are spot on. (I'm assuming possibly over generously from my informally diagnosed own issues)
@@rajasmasala ...Tolkien was never a fascist, and that's coming from a guy who once flirted with the ideology and nearly became a convert. In one of his later letters to his son, he all but referred to himself as an Anarcho-Monarchist, wanting a king who made a point of "ruling" by only getting involved in times of necessity, but otherwise leaving the people alone to get on with their lives.
Very nicely done! I was particularly intrigued to discover through your video that the production of orcs from corrupted elves occurred very early in the history of middle earth; in fact very shortly after the creation of elves themselves. I had always assumed that this had occurred within the span of the thousands of years that made up the ages; not the creation time. With respect to their ending, I wonder however whether it would be possible for some of them to suffer less than complete destruction. Aragorn after all pardoned those of his enemies in front of the Gates to Mordor that gave themselves up and sued for mercy. Why could that not have included some orcs. The will to survive (as Shagrat and Gorbag pointed out) is strong in all creatures.
The issue is what to do with a band of Orcs that surrender? Do you imprison them? Medieval societies only imprisioned aristocrats or other notable individuals. We know that Aragorn pardoned many of Sauron's mannish allies. Do you resettle them? Again, this is unlikely. A band of Orcs is undesirable in any lands under the control of Gondor. Resettle them near a mannish settlement? That's just asking for trouble. Even if the Orcs had initially good intentions, they would grow hungry and steal from the peasants in short order. Another option is to resettle them in Mordor. However, again, this is just asking for trouble. Without Sauron's army of logistics, western Mordor is unlivable. Only the fertile fields of Nurn are viable. However, do you let them set up residence there? We don't know exactly who inhabited Nurn at the end of the Third Age, but it was probably a combination of human and Orc slaves, with a handful of Easterling merchants and administrators. Adding any large number of liberated Orcs to this region would likely drive out the human inhabitants as they would no longer be automatic allies with the Orcs. This region is far from Gondor, so it's probably not easy to maintain the peace. Aragorn could release the Orcs beyond the borders of Gondor. This too is fairly unethical, as many would die in a search for new dwellings, or find themselves desperate and hungry and at odds with whatever settlements of Easterlings and Southrons they happen to chance upon.
While all you say is logical, I think the passages cited make clear that the Mordor Orcs were so enslaved and enchanted, they were closer to ants and a hive mind at the last gasp of Sauron's will, and they were so shocked, as in shell shocked, that they were incapable of rational thought and the best they could do is run and hide. They were described as witless and insane, unlike the proud men that refused to surrender, but fought and died to the last man. Those that were pardoned were the innocent slaves that worked the farms and fields by the waters of Lake Nurn in the southern most reaches of Mordor. IMHO, the only orcs that would have the capacity to surrender, were the half-orcs of Saruman/Sharkey, who came up the Greenway to harass the Hobbits and Breelanders. No more than ruffians, but still capable of more than the typical orc, they could set themselves up as robbers, or laborers, or more likely, hired mercenaries. I can't see or foresee any true Orc or Uruk-hai, able to shake off the taint of the Dark Lords to cooperate with Men, unless it was bad Men in a robber group. And the Dwarves would never make any kind of peace with them, but destroy any orc they would find. With all the orc warriors wiped out in all the various engagements throughout Middle Earth, all that would remain would be the orc strongholds of Mt Gundabad and Goblin Town. Both of those are in areas that the Dwarves and the Woodmen control, and the Dwarves wouldn't leave a single orc alive. That hatred is too pure to be reasoned with. Within a hundred years, I'd believe that the orcs would be extinct.
Tolkien texts hint at the rules of treatment of orcs in war: "....they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded." Indeed when the Orcs were under the mental domination of Sauron or Morgoth they would be almost witless at the moment of their defeat, but when they were not under direct mind influence they could potenailly think of surrendering, though they prefered to either die fighting or flee....the only possible reference to orc surrender is this one side note in Wanderings of Hurin: "He hates this folk. As soon as he saw us he reviled us. We gave him food and he spat on it. I have seen Orcs do so, if any were fools enough to show them mercy." (this obviously being directed at Hurin, and disingenous, but he is compared to orc captive :)).
what u mean tolkien was right? that old guy is the one that made the whole middle earth fantasy stories...he could pick and choose how he wanted it to be. right?....
@@kallelund4487 No because it is a subjective view on what is morally wrong or right. For example, if you personally didn't think that corrupting orcs was a bad thing to do, then you wouldn't think that was Morgoth's greatest sin. Tolkien's comment is in relation to his own moral view, and although he can pick and choose how he wanted it, you can also pick and choose what you think is right but obviously to Tolkien, corrupting an innocent race of beings into doing evil things was the greatest evil of all.
By that logic, one would expect the intent is that orcs are by-and-large irredeemable, because for them to have a chance at redemption would lessen Morgoth's sin, would it not?
@@SUPPLEGENIUS Eru, The One, could have just let Melkor have the power to create his own people and all of that war and corruption could have possibly been averted. He did with Aule, the Valar who created the dwarves out of stone as he had the same desire to create but due to this being an act of "defiance" in his eyes, although good natured, he stunted their race but still let them exist. Honestly, it's all kind of on Eru Illuvatar for not listening to his most esteemed Valar and outright denying him the ability to create for reasons that aren't really addressed or directly explained. That is essentially what led to him falling and corrupting living things. His initial desire to create was not necessarily malevolent. It's all subjective of course as is any matter of "good and evil" but just saying...
LOTR Online had taken orcs just seeking a new life into account. There are these islands and on one of them is a tribe of friendly orcs who want to be left alone pardon trading with a nearby town. A few of them came from Gundabad who deserted from their leader's fruitless campaign (you actually help them escape).
I always thought that the remnants of Sauron's subjects (more like victims) settled around the Sea of Núrnen, which Aragorn granted them as their land. It was never said directly it included orcs, but I always found it very likely.
Those peoples who were given Nurnen and the region were enslaved peoples made to raise food for the armies. The legendarium presents almost ALL orcs as soldiers... so no orc would raise food in farmlands. Those who received Nurnen under Aragorn were humans.
No it did not include the orcs. It was stated Aragorn gave that land to the slaves of Sauron and Sauron had human servants and slaves. Was not granted to orcs or trolls or other such evil servants
@@nialencapefet5154 yes they were slaves of Morgoth and later Sauron but they also worked independently as well and often did there own thing when Sauron was "in hiding" such as Azog and the orcs during the war with the Dwarves and his son Blog and the Battle of the 5 armies. But again they were evil, corrupted, and hated all living things so I highly doubt any amnesty Aragorn granted he granted to orcs and trolls. I have to agree with the video, after the Ring amd Sauron was destroyed, orcs most likely formed their.own bands and followed the strongest of their race as their leaders. They most likely went underground and raided human settlements when they could, fought amongst themselves etc. They were hunted by men to extinction and like the Dwarves, just faded after time. Maybe some large groups also went east to join up with the evil men there or went down to Harad amd joined them After the fall of Suaron, both Aragron and Eomer fought side by side for years to subdue what remained of the followers of Sauron which included the men of Harad and the men of Rhun. Orcs are evil beings and were often hunted by men and elves just to kill them.
@@nialencapefet5154semantics really because when talking about the two there’s a clear difference in how these thing would be considered. Regardless of the technicalities orca are servents of Sauron
You almost sound like Iain Glen, which I offer as a sincere compliment. Your voice is so thoroughly enjoyable to listen to, and your delivery is impeccable. Thanks for making such incredible content.
Thanks for making this video. Gathering together those widely dispersed quotes and lines pertaining to the Orcs. I now can see with much greater clarity the differences between my interpretation of Orcs as compared to that of the Professor. For my part I have always believed that all sentient races have within themselves both good and evil influences. I do often cast a positive light upon those fell races, including Orcs. The Orcs of Erda (pronounced Air duh [from the same Germanic source as Tolkien's Arda]) have been forced into servitude to a series of dark masters. But where the roads diverge, these Orcs grow their own cities, have families, and eventually fight for their freedom.
I thought Tolkien recanted the Orcs Are Corrupted Elves theory, although it's my favorite. But considering how touchy the topic of Kinslaying is to elves, you'd think elves would show orcs more mercy. Unless they are corrupted elves and the only way to free them is to kill them so their spirits can return to Valinor. Then the more they kill the better.
great video. orcish lore in tolkien's work is always a bit blurred but maybe that's why it's so interesting.although their nature seems a bit fixed it is pleasing to think some of the orcs grew differently without the oppressing darkness and became more and more humanlike. they might even have their own heroes, traitors etc. accumulation of a hunter-gatherer, naturalist orc culture is not a far fetched thought for many fans like me.
I do wish there was at least one orc, who saw the error of his ways and became repentant. As mentioned, maybe able to do some trade with men or dwarves or elves. I believe that would be part of a great story regarding hope and / or redemption.
Me to. If not try to serve as a laborer on a farm. Learning new skills. Or a small independent group of them living in a camp or colony on thier own. Free of war, tyranny, and oppression. They can't breed, or reproduce on their own. So eventually they would die out.
The only problem with that is that they have basically zero impulse control. Even if an orc "decided" to be good and just fit into the world of men, and even if the world of men accepted him, there would still be the lingering threat that as soon as he thinks he can get something, he'll go for it, regardless of consequences. I always imagined that the last few bands of orcs really tried to make nice with the humans, hunting for them, trading with them...etc., but at the first opportunity, they turned back into their old selves and were forced to be dealt with. Eventually, people would realize that the only way to deal with orcs is at the tip of a sword, which is basically enslaving them, and they weren't up to the task, so they just ended up killing and/or chasing away the orcs, which led to them dwindling day by day.
@@evanharrison4054 I was watched a few other video about orcs. They actually can reproduce via orc mating. I also didn't know that there are female orcs. You make a valid point. They have no impulse control. But maybe they can learn.
Wasn't it mentioned that whoever created orcs can't really create life, but only gross mockery of it? Orcs are not really capable to live like humans, dwarves or elves as they lack self conscious and all of them are just dark magic subject of sauron, and since there's no sauron, they no longer have purpose. They're not "life", they're just construct to act as soldiers, they cannot be thought to live different. They're dark creatures living in darkness forever.
@@frankspikes7858 You just gave me an idea. See, orcs are naturally leaning towards evil, but it was greatly exacerbated by the presence of a dark lord who kept them in fear all their lives. An interesting story would be about an orc who was born after the dark lord fell, who only has his natural inclination for evil, but would, at least in orc terms, be a lot less violent and a lot more capable of peaceful diplomacy than his enslaved ancestors. I imagine him as sort of a mediator between his people and potential allies. The abandoned sequel to the LOTR trilogy would have dealt with the rise of what we could refer to as moral ambiguity. In lieu of a dark lord, humans slowly devolved into a state of constant warfare(that continues to this day, if the Tolkien mythos is to be believed) and the last few remaining orcs, I imagine, would have taken their fair share out of that. ...anyway, basically Suicide Squad, but with orc mercenaries teaming up with fugitive human criminals, lead by a character who does his best to deny his own base instincts for the benefit of his dying race. Sorry about the wall of text. If you are curious how I'd end the story, let me know and I'll type it out. If not, then let me apologize again for wasting your time. P.S.: I hope I used Suicide Squad as an apt reference. Never seen it, just read the synopsis. Loved Peacemaker though...
The Orcs faded following the destruction of the One - as did the elves, dwarves and Hobbits (eventually) because all of their fates were tied to it, for good or ill. In the Fourth Age, Orcs dwindled in number until finally becaming nothing more than myths and legends. They have no place in the age of man.
This is one of the most thoughtful essays on Tolkien's writing I've heard. I worried about orcs since I was a kid, asking my mom where do they go when they die. There was also a hint that sauron or saruman were breeding orcs with men to produce a hardier breed of orcs, and that's where the uruk hai came from.
There has never been such a rich and diverse legendarium in the history of humankind. Let that marinate for a moment. Not Dante, not the anonymous author of Beowulf, not the Epic of Gilgamesh, not the Homeric writings and Poems, not Virgil's writings.....none of it. As an author, Tolkien stands alone among all of humankind's scribes and poets. None of have created a world that remotely compares to Middle Earth. The detail, the lore, the languages, the dialects, Middle Earth even has its own creation story, just as all civilizations on Earth have. It is precisely because of the magnitude of Tolkien's work and its sheer depth that it demands accuracy in its telling. A scholar could devote their entire scholastic careers to studying Middle Earth and not encompass the whole of it. What a remarkable mind Professor Tolkien had, indeed! Here's an interesting anecdote. The word's "Beren" and "Luthien" appear on the gravestones of Tolkien and his wife. I often wonder if the good professor is living out his 'hereafter" in his Middle Earth with his wife in fashion similar to Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. In his adjacent writings, Goldberry received a very noble and beautiful description that was typically only reserved for prominent female characters such as Galadriel, Melian and her daughter, Luthien or the Queens of the Valar. Tokien compares Goldberry to "an elf-like queen clad in living flowers". Not even Luthien, herself, was given such a description. This is why I believe Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were Tolkien's representations of himself and his wife within his works. He could've chosen some elf lord/king or some Human King and Queen to represent himself and his wife. But, he didn't. He created Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. I'm not saying this is fact. Its my impression. But, that's the magic and brilliance of Tolkien's work. It can be interpreted many different ways and none of it is wrong. He left the story open so other authors could carry it forward. In terms of scope and magnitude, Tolkien's Middle Earth stands as one of the wonders of the modern world. Few human creations compare. That means it up there with the Pyramids, The Hanging Gardens of Babylon, The Colossus of Rhoads, The Library of Alexandria and so on.
Did the elves ever try to redeem any orcs? Maybe very early on, recognizing their ruined cousins? Did the elves always hate the orcs or did they try to save any? The original ruined elves made orcs were beings they might have actually known?
I think not. In biological terms, the orcs would have completely become a different family, as different as a dog is from from a toad. There would not be any useful interactions, and I hardly think any orc would remember that there were descended from the line of elves once. Their brains are completely degenerated. Also, as stated, orcs' have much shorter live-spans than elves, shorter than even men.. They can be killed and ravaged by diseases. So the elves would not have known any of the current batch of orcs.
@Wann-zo7rn2qn4i gotcha. So even the first generation of elves, the initially destroyed, probably were not understood to be former elves by elves that avoided the torture? Or maybe the first perverted were never released to meet their former kin? Nothing to recognize? Guessing then that the early orcs (2nd generation+) were not even aware of what they used to be? No going to elves and saying save me?
Good video! The FIRST orcs were corrupted elves. Maybe their spirits had a chance of redemption. But later orcs were bred as orcs from orcs. So they are less of elvish origin and more tied to their evil creators. And they seem to have absolute loyalty to their masters. They are perhaps tied to their creators fate and can't be redeemed. What happens to an orc's spirit upon death is perhaps not known.
Orcs only had absolute loyalty to Morgoth. It's clear that they feared and perhaps even loathed Sauron. One even hints that they don't much care for following Sauron and they know full well what kind of treatment they can expect.
Tolkien wrote about the final battle against Morgoth, that creatures of all races fought on both sides and elves alone were only on the side of good- meaning that back then there were orcs that fought against Morgoth. So the capacity for goodness was likely in them.
Well it is said about orcs that they hated themselves but that they hated Morgoth even more so why not should there be some orcs, under some strong orc leader, who fought against Morgoth?
I just came across your channel and love the content. Subscribed right away. By the way, I think you should seriously consider doing audiobooks. You got a good voice that's comfortable listening to.
@@raftai665 hahahaha! chill … i dont see a problem man! i also don,t care but i just only give you a info is AI generated voice..Take care ! peace bro ✌️
Suilánte! Just found your channel. Way cool dive into an old mystery that eluded even Tolkien! In The New Shadow, I interpret the orc cult that the boy is part of might be head by an old, likely one of the last, orcs or mixed breed. Slowly and secretly corrupting with stories of the cruel men of the west that slaughtered their race. Tolkien might have thought that orc ancestry could be mixed into modern peoples. Like we could have a little elf, hobbit, even Maia, (probably not dwarf) ancestry, and unfortunately orc too. Fun to think about. Look forward to checking out your other vids!
To be completely honest, I came here to witness another hilarious redemption campaign for orcs(the personification of evil and ill wil) and what I got instead was a truly impressive piece of research and presentation about one of the most evil creatures in fantasy worlds. Many of us actually don't have a clue about what happend with the race of the orc in Middle Earth after Sauron's downfall and for this video I am very grateful, for it is a long time since I've read any of Tolkien's books and so I don't recall many of these fine details. Thank you for refreshing some of my most beloved memories.
the personification of evil and repulsions are humans and elves, not orcs. trollkien himself is a perfect example due to the lies and bile he published.
I thoroughly enjoyed the exploration of such a “what if“ subject. In truth, anything to do with a legendarium seizes my interest. Subscribed with gratitude.
Remember, too, that the Dominion of Men began after the end of the Third Age and the passing of the Elder Days. Not only did Men increase, but Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, and Orcs all faded into legend. Tolkien himself cast back and forth over the nature of Orcs and their creation. I think, perhaps, he may have come to the conclusion that although they were not beings with spirit like Elves and Men, they were more a manifestation of the corruption of Arda. Rather then imbued with spirit, which comes from Eru, they were simply animate clay. Given form and function by the malice of Melkor. Which would also account both for the inability for the redemption of, and ultimate fading of, the Orcs after the Third Age.
Good stuff! Poignant. Good art work, too. I'm quite sure I have not stumbled upon "Realms Unravelled" until now. I don't recognize it anyway. But I'll be looking for more of your stuff. Count on it.
Don't forget that Sauron didn't die, but was reduced to a pale shadow. I suspect this shadow attached itself to one of the weakest of his followers. Somewhere out there in Middle-earth, a lone Orc walks the world. He watches his people dwindle and wonders in solitude what keeps him alive.
Awesome video, knew most of this, but your story telling style, beat and awesome story telling voice make it worth listening to again brother. Kind regards, Solo-Sweden
As a kid when my Dad read me the Lord of the rings I never thought about the concept of orcs being good, I would go off into the woods find a stick and slay as many as I could. However since growing older, I think it would have been really interesting to have one lone Orc join the fellowship at some early point and slowly earn the trust and ultimately befriend them.
I’ve only known the movies, but I always wondered what would happen if that commander ork who captured Mary and Pippin developed an ultra-protective attitude towards them, survived the cavalry raid, killed that crazy hungry ork in a 1-on-1 duel, and eventually defected from his mission-driven reasoning as to why to spare the hobbits for so long; omitting the inclusion of Tree-Beard’s appearance since the course of those three went on an alternative path.
Just came across this visionary tail. I found it soothing and informative, and the telling of the ONE" and the realms of Middle Earth and your voice explaining the narrative is like listening to a talking of a book for the blind . You have now got a regular listener and watcher to your channel. Keep up the great work and knowledge as I hope there maybe more followers to you and the middle earth ...👍👍👍👍
I like the idea that the orcs, after going into hiding, would have been hunted by men perhaps, but also we know that men and elves can breed, and it is implied that orcs and men can breed as well. Its possible that in order to maintain their line at all orcs could kidnap human women and force them to bear their half orc children. While many would be slain for the horrors that orcs are always want to commit or in battle, the remaining may have died out due to half orcs breeding with men and spreading orc genes thinly throughout the races of men of middle earth. This would also do something to explain why the lives of men in Gondor and even those of the Dunedain shortened in the many years after Aragorns death.
If there is any hope for the orcs it lies in the east; in the lands of Rhun, Harad and further beyound wich would still face strifes and conflicts even withought Sauron's influence. There, the human tribes and kingdoms have some precedents in fighting alongside them and may prove more tolerant of their existance than their conterparts in the west. In these lands, orc tribes could be hired to fight as mercenaries in echange for gold and meat (most likely taken from slain ennemies). The interactions that would come from such partnerships could be the fondations for a brighter future.
The orc armies of Mordor were not defeated in battle...they were betrayed by certain citizens in the home front, then their leadership killed Sauron and spread around rumors of rings and magic to avoid responsibility and take power on to themselves...this gave rise to the rumor that the orcs were stabbed in the back...
In his later writing Tolkien changed his mind about Orks (his later preferred spelling). When he published the Silmarillion, he would make the origin of their race come from corrupted Men, not Elves. This is one of several changes his son did not take up into his version of the Silmarillion but really should have. (I can't remember which book of the History this is from, possibly Morgoth's Ring.)
I know this is a dig at RoP, but this is a legitimate question that has plagued the nerd community for almost 70 years now. There's a famous GRRM quote asking if Aragorn sent riders to "kill the little orc babies in their little orc cribs".
as someone who only has seen the movies your video's are amazing, having EU4(a convoluted strategy game that takes 1k hours to learn) with the Lotr mod helps as well.
Damn that show. I watched it all in one sitting and can't and don't want to remember any of it. Out of place humanoids of color where at the top of the list of frustrating things, it killed the mood right at the beginning. Beyond that story is total dump.
They traveled back in time. The experience was so traumatic that changed them to their core. They became caring husbands and wives, appearing in a horrible tv show via a portal, whose opening sounded weirdly like the words "fuck Tolkien".
Interesting - Those two orcs at Cirith Ungol both talked about "the old days". Presumably that would be before being in Sauron's service, which could mean centuries. I suspect that means the orcs have a long life expectancy, even if it doesn't mean immortal.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the king of Goblintown recognized Glamdring and Foehammer, swords made and used by Gondolin in the 1st age, by sight alone. Implying perhaps, that that particular orc was likely thousands of years old, even if not dating to the first age. Glamdring and Foehammer were presumably lost for quite a long while, as no elf ever claimed to own them ("Hey! My brother, the legendary warrior Sindoglorian went missing in the ettenmoors 300 years ago with that sword, which was weilded at the fall of Gondolin by our grandfather! I'm sure glad you found my family heirloom, gimme here pleaze")
@@userequaltoNull in the case of swords it may be also partly cultural...Orcs also tell tales, and pass down tales of the old days and history...the only actual hint at the orc age is the case of Bolg, son of Azog, Azog died as we know in battle of Nanduhirion, which was year 2799....and Bolg his son was leading Orcs in battle during events of The Hobbit in year 2941 T.A. Bolg during his death at Battle of Five Armies would have been at least....around 142 years...definitely more. The other Tolkien texts mention various theories on their lifespan, nature, afterlife fate etc.
There is a point you haven't considered. Pragmatism. Indeed, that is an important question unto itself. Can the Orcs exhibit pragmatism because if they can, they don't need to be redeemed to live in peace with men, it can be a purely pragmatic decision when the alternative is the annihilation of their race.
What a wonderfully enjoyable channel. Every video I'm mesmerized by the engaging narration and intriguing artwork. Only 35k subs? I imagine it will be 1 million in no time with this kind of content. Thank you!
We know from real world history that tribes that fought each other were always crushed by centralized cooperative forces. Without a dark overlord it seems obvious that orcs will not unite under one banner. They will fight and backstab each other. So I assume the humans just cleared them one by one.
I thought on that one myself... concluded that Ring would be in the worst of taste. Tangentially, I hope some LOTR page has downloaded all the West Lothian Police vs the One Ring Net-wackery. A laugh like that deserves to be preserved, handed down; at the least wheeled out for science fiction conventions. Not least because West Lothian also saw the humor of the situation. Perhaps it might be read aloud, in a round-robin circle, the way they once did with _The Eye Of Argon._ Break up and you have to pass on the reading to the next reader.
The surviving Orcs eventually went to Harvard and other Ivy League schools and now work on Wall St. & Madison Ave. for the most part, though a number of them eventually became congressmen/women from Georgia, Arkansas and Mississippi, or opened trailer parks in Florida.
After the main storyline was over, the Orcs just stand there idling if you no-clipped back into Mordor but there won’t be any real texture around them just low res floor .
8:00 This is conclusion does not consider the context of thier words. They wanted to go where there was easy loot and no bosses. Loot implies they wanted to be raiders, theives, and bandits. So they were not interested in peace. They were just not wanting to be caight up in other people's wars.
This was wonderful and so insightful! Thank you! We all must remember that these books were written for us to study ourselves. Through the lens of mythology. But we do not learn and hate all we cannot come to understand.
I remember a passage in which Frodo and Sam saw two orcs arguing. It quickly turned violent with one killing the other and running off. Frodo explained that it was the nature of the orcs: in the absence of a common enemy or powerful leader, they would turn on each other because hatred and violence was all they knew. It makes sense that, after the destruction of the Balrog and the fall of Sauron, the orcs of Moria as well as Mordor began fighting each other. Dwarves, Elves and Men killed the larger, more organized groups with strong leaders while the smaller bands killed one another until there were none left.
I believe that the message J.R.R. Tolkien would want to send with the fate of the orcs was that hatred is poison, and those who only know hate will, eventually, destroying themselves.
Evil is self defeating.
Except orcs in Hobbit have no problems living in multiple stable 'kingdoms' and that was when everyone thought Sauron was dead, sooo...
@KuK137 Actually, a lot of people knew Sauron survived the war against the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, they just didn't know where he was. He could have been helping the various tribes of orcs by secretly training and installing power chieftains to prevent infighting until he was ready to move openly.
Remember the Witch King's war against the Duninine?
@@KuK137 yeah, they are capable of forming their 'petty kingdoms' and there are myriads of tribes and orc peoples who would have their own feuds and treacheries and strife, only a strong leader can pull them back into unified single horde :), a great orc chieftain like Azog or Bolg were able to rally the tribes of Orcs (along with other motivating factors, seeking revenge for Great Goblin's death, wanting piece of treasure and resolving to "wind dominion of the north"), the petty realms and orc clans would be fighting each other and preying on other folk as they always did. In any case I imagine for a long while the situation in Fourth Age with Orcs would be like it was at the early beginning of Second Age:
"But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command. And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction."
In The Hobbit we also hear of the Orc/goblin allainces with other folk, including 'wicked dwarves' so they could have formed some relations with various renegades of other races and peoples...and of course as always there was their alliance with Wargs.
@@ethenallen1388 Who knew he was alive?
The last two orcs died by arrow and axe.....and the score was still tied.
lol. Perfect 👍
I got the impression that Aragorn spent the first few years after being crowned dealing with enemies, alongside Éomer of Rohan, and that at least some of these battles may have been with the remaining Orcs
Probably. There was Goblin Town in the Misty Mountains. Assuming they didn't fight in the Battle of the Five Armies they might have been reduced during the fighting in the north while the siege of Minas Tirith was underway. Some must have remained. I'm assuming what is meant though is human foes. Scattered remnants of the Haradrim in southern Gondor, Easterlings in Erebor and Rohan, Dunlendings. Basically the same foes that Gondor had been up against for centuries.
I don't know, I would assume he would be busy sorting out his kingdom instead of roaming the land killing Orcs. Respect, M
@321CatDaddy the two are one and the same. Cleansing the lands both protects it for future generations and ensures the safety of the present generation
I've read the Appendix in Lord of the Rings and other things like Unfinished Tales and I was under the impression Aragorn routed out the Orcs. I also think that Elrond's sons stayed around for a while too. Having read snippets from all over I'm not sure where I get this impression from. I certainly think there was a hunting of Orcs, Trolls etc.
@@richardwales9674 Galadriel leaves and her husband stays for a time in Lothlorien before moving to Rivendell to hang out with Elrond's sons.
As the unpublished epilogue of Lotr has it regarding Moria:
"Dark places still need a lot of cleaning up. I guess it will take a lot of trouble and daring deeds yet to root out the evil creatures from the halls of Moria. For there are certainly plenty of Orcs left in such places. It is not likely that we shall ever get quite rid of them."
So yeah, there are plenty of places where Orcs would live afterwards in Fourth Age.
@user-us3zg1vg4f who they are technically bound to doesn't really matter in the long run, defeat and destruction of Morgoth didn't make them all die out so Sauron's defeat won't either unless in som far off future day. And that's the point of my message right :) to point out there are plenty of dark places in the world, and areas where the Orcs would be active? :) Misty Mountains, whole of the Ered Mithrin, Grey Mountains and other places would be still having a lot of them....the remnants of Sauron's armies that were not destroyed (or killed themselves or through infighting) would disperse into the world, meeting with the other previously semi independent (but still often in allegiance with Mordor or indirectly controlled through Sauron sending his servants among them) orc clans and tribes....they would prey on the other peoples, raiding and pillaging etc. and there would be orc remnants to deal with on Gondor's borderlands for years to come.....
@user-us3zg1vg4f can you express yourself clearere next time? As for the whole deal with Sauron and so on...he was assuming leadership over Orcs already under Morgoth but later after the fall of Thangorodrim it was Sauron who became the ruler of Orcs and managed to dominate them in many ways even stronger than Morgoth:
"But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command. And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction. It is thus probably to Sauron that we may look for a solution of the problem of chronology. Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, he remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable of calculation. At least in the Elder Days, and before he was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating him, and endeavouring to become himself supreme Lord of Middle-earth. While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice."
Which of course doesn't exclude possibility of the semi independent orc tribes and clans who are doing their own thing...indeed in Second Age they did set up on their own but Sauron managed to dominate and control them...and also he managed to breed them further experimenting and so even breeding a new breed....uruks of Mordor who were so ingrained into his service they would kill themselves on his command.
@@fantasywind3923Dude, I really hope you found that online somewhere to copy/paste here. I'd hate for you to have done all that to go against a nonsense argument.
@@fantasywind3923 Ered Mithrin and Grey Mountains are the same thing
@@maximus3160 I know that I was merely using both names.
I've always read Sagrat and Gorbag's desires to set up on their own as to be a bandit band, doing their evil for their own benefit not that of a big boss. I don't see that as an arguement in favour of their possible redemption
Yeah, it sounds like the orcs were living in small bands attacking each other and other groups for the 3000 years between Sauron's fall at the end of the second age and the events of LOTR.
@@damionkeeling3103The fellowship takes place at the end of the third age
I hold with those who say the orcs would eventually kill off each other. Melkor had created beings that were the antithesis of the elves they’d once been. They were vessels of endless selfish hostility, by design, and, like with the dwarves,we never see any female orcs. Apparently, the evil soldiers that assaulted Helm’s Deep were “grown” and killed anything they found when freed from their birth sacs. They were purpose built as useful, hostile idiots given purpose only by evil leaders. 12:38
Not being under the thumb of a strong and violent dictator opens up the possibility of doing things better if they live long enough. They have a better chance (better than 0%) of recognizing their faulty ways and doing better. They may start out as doing just as much bad bc that’s all they knew originally (it’s their skill set) but they now are not coerced to not learn other things.
@@rincasarff5200That isn't how Tolkien's lore/worldbuilding really works though. The powers that shaped Arda poured themselves into their creations and Morgoth/Melkor's cruelty, hatred, and desire to dominate was poured into twisted forms of life. Morgoth's fall and subsequent creations were in response to him perceiving Illuvatar's unique Secret Fire (the true ability to give the spark of life) and desiring to possess it for himself. This core motivation is totally alien to literally any acceptance of the life he had and subsequently this core self-twisting character trait was also imbued into the core of everything he (and later Sauron) spawned.
Redemption requires the fundamental ability to accept yourself for who you are, that you're not 'god', and that you can be something great already with the life you have. Orcs would be broken attempting to internalize any of this in the LotR mythos.
I love how elves speak posh BBC-style english ,except when they become corrupted into orcs, they turn cockney..... so true to life.
Yep, nature vs nurture.
Scouse. They ought to be scouse.
They should speak New London bru innit
Yeah the whole text is pretty racist and classist lol
After the down fall of Sauron, those Orcs with enough will, fled to dark places in the mountains. It has already been seen in Tolkien's works that Orcs can survive & grow without Sauron & Morgoth.
They evolve into goblins I guess.
It did not mean they could survive just because they ran away. They would need an evil shadow to guide them and shield them. I do not think people understand how vile they are.
@@Art-is-craft Not really sure where you get that impression. They just need food, water, and shelter from sunlight to survive. Not some "dark shadow to guide them"
Sure they would more than likely need something along those lines to rise up again and start another war, but not to simply survive. They could absolutely do so by continuously running away lol
@@TyranasauruzFlex6669 They can't fully organize or make grand scale plans but they perfectly fine in their burrows.
@@Art-is-craft The thing with Orcs is, they are still children of Iluvatar. Corrupted by Morgoth, but still apart of Arda. Foul & terrible beings, but things like that have a habit of surviving. Point in case, Durin's Bane.
I was unaware of what fate the orcs had after the return of the king. It was very nice to hear an explanation since I honestly hadnt even really thought to question it. It seems equally likely to me that they hold on in greatly diminished standing in truly far places, or that either by hunting or their own nature died out.
What did Tolkien write about Goblins in "The Hobbit"? "They did not hate Dwarves in particular, and in some places evil Dwarves made alliances with them" (paraphrase). So that implies that they could coexist with other races, if it was in their own interest to do so.
@@kamalaparkerballs Goblins and orcs are the same creature.
And leftover mithril would make a fine initial capital for that... bank. Compound interest would do a lot of the rest! ...Sauron had amassed mithril in the treasure vaults of Barad-Dûr.
@@dclipper8052personally i like to think of it as a cultural distinction, goblins refers to those specific orcs living in the misty mountains (especially mt. gundabad), who exist independent of sauron, saruman, or the witch king.
The orcs live on. I remember something perhaps in the introduction to the LOTR saying in modern times descendents of the orcs were often designers of weapons of war etc
Your eloquency has captivated me. Subscribed.
And, adding to the disscussion: It is possible that a swift death could be more merciful for a tortured soul twisted beyond the possibility of healing, than it would be to let it be in misery for longer. Pherhaps their original design and purpose would resurface within the Halls of Mando. Pherhaps that way they could face a thriving existence aligned with their original purpose.
i wouldn't be too hasty giving away death sentence, even out of pity. there can always be a chance
If they existed today they would cross into the US thanks to the Democrats.
And be moved to a small town somewhere or a reservation.
Some of them held out in the deepest caverns of the Earth and become the beings we saw in the movie 'The Descent'
Interesting theory
Very similar yes
No sir, those are the Falmer from Elder Scrolls
Absolutely 😂
Tolkien actually said in a reply to a fan latter that orcs, or at least their heritage (remember, they CAN breed with men) existed right up until the present day.
As for where they would go, it might not be quite as bleak as it sounds. Aragorn made Mordor a "free state" meaning ANYONE could settle there. He no doubt made sure the borders were well patrolled to keep an eye on them, but so long as any stayed in Mordor, they were free to govern themselves. The area of Mordor around Barad-Dur was indeed a wasteland where little to nothing would grow or thrive (at least at the time of the fall of Sauron*) But that still left Nurnen in the South and all of the land to the East. Granted, this land also would hold the now freed Men who had been Sauron's slaves in his farms and mines, but depending on how numerous they were, and how interested in vengeance, small bands of orcs might be able to exist there in some safety.
As for their lack of mention in The New Shadow, Tolkien only ever got to page seven of that idea, who KNOWS what would have come later.
To add the footnote that was supposed to go with the asterisk, as someone pointed out, volcanic soil tends to be super fertile. So if, with Sauron no longer there, the weather improved and the air cleared up (no more smoke from all of the war factories,) even the area around Gorgoroth might spring back quite nicely.
There called football fans
Texas
I bet the orc women are wild in bed
@@papalaz4444244Golden Horde
"So it was that they did not see the last stand, when Uglúk was overtaken and brought to bay at the very edge of Fangorn. There he was slain at last by Éomer, the Third Marshal of the Mark, who dismounted and fought him sword to sword."
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Now a Knight would never dismount to fight a commoner, but a Knight would dismount for fairly fight a dismounted Knight, and Tolkien surely would be aware of this, so to my mind, when Eomer dismounts to fight Ugluk Sword to Sword, and Peer to Peer; he is recognizing this warrior as a peer. Warrior to Warrior. So I don't think Orc's can ever be good, but I do think some orcs, their captains, and especially the Uruk-Hai can have a twisted sort of Honor, it is a dark honor as they serve a fallen cause, but I think the best of the Orcs, Ugluk and his peers serve their cause with Loyalty, and Discipline, heedless of their losses.
.
Think of all the Orcs Slain at Helms deep, I think Orcs could and would be capable of great sacrifice so long as they thought their side would win a battle, but once it seemed that the winds of fate were blowing against them, their natural cowardice would cause the great mass of Orcs to flee for their lives.
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So I do think in the Uruk-Hai Tolkien is telling us the Orcs are not utterly corrupt, but like his friend C.S.Lewis observes in his own writings, Evil is weak on its own, Great Evil must come from the potential for Great Good Corrupted. In Ugluk we see a great captain corrupted. IMHO.
I think its also meant to demonstrate the shift in the world. All these battles fought had humans on the back foot. Defeat was inevitable if not for the intervention of others. Gandalf and the rohirrim, Aragon leading a rear assault at Minas Tirith, the eagles intercepting the nazgul and their felbeasts. Finally Frodo destroying the ring while the armies of men bought time.
After all this, men hold the advantage. They are scouring the orcs. But this gesture shows that those times are past. Middle Earth is to be ruled by mortal men.
This enemy that has oppressed them for centuries. I will fight you. I will meet you on equal ground. And I will win. There's no more tricks. Hat pulls or anything. Men will rule over Middle Earth without needing the help of immortal elves or divine beings. They stand on their own two feet and succeed
Yeah the Orcs are capable of possessing more positive virtues and traits...they can be brave, have loyalty at least towards their chieftains and so seek revenge on their deaths and comrades, they have notions of acceptable behavior like leaving comrades behind is bad (though they will do so hypocritically if the need will call for it:
"The big fellow with sharp sword doesn't seem to have thought him worth much anyhow - just left him lying: regular Elvish trick."/"D'you remember old Ufthak? We lost him for days. Then we found him in a corner; hanging up he was, but he was wide awake and glaring. How we laughed! She'd forgotten him, maybe, but we didn't touch him - no good interfering with Her.'"
They certainly can socialize and cooperate when there is a need for it.
At times they help each other when they promise support, even share loot, but often are treacherous they have feuds and strife of their own can betray each other
"'Not our orders!' said one of the earlier voices. 'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.'"/"Though Orcs will often pursue foes for many leagues into the plain, if they have a fallen captain to avenge ..."
"'I gave him better than I got, but he knifed me, the dung, before I throttled him."
They like to have fun and enjoy themselves:
"While Goblins quaff, and Goblins laugh Round and round far underground "/"There they fell to carousing and feasting on their booty; and after tormenting their prisoners most fell drunkenly asleep."
Obviously they have cruel idea of fun or 'sport', torturing people for fun!
The Orcs at battle of Hornburg also....knew and accepted the rules of parlay :)...they stopped shooting when Aragorn gave sign for talks :).
"At last Aragorn stood above the great gates, heedless of the darts of the enemy. As he looked forth he saw the eastern sky grow pale. Then he raised his empty hand, palm outward in token of parley.
The Orcs yelled and jeered. "Come down! Come down!" they cried. "If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come. Bring out your skulking king!"
"The king stays or comes at his own will," said Aragorn.
"Then what are you doing here?" they answered. "Why do you look out? Do you wish to see the greatness of our army? We are the fighting Uruk-hai."
"I looked out to see the dawn," said Aragorn.
"What of the dawn?" they jeered. "We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?"
"None knows what the new day shall bring him," said Aragorn. "Get you gone, ere it turn to your evil."
"Get down or we will shoot you from the wall," they cried. "This is no parley. You have nothing to say."
@@fantasywind3923 Cool Thanks for sharing.
@@mullerpotgieter Its possible.
@@mullerpotgieter I don't think the idea that men will no longer require help from divine beings hold true in the LotR universe. Tolkien is a devout Catholic, and both Catholics and Protestants believe in the tenet of relying themselves on divine providence. Sure, one must act and do his/her own part. But his/her life ultimately lies on the hand of a Divine Being.
This isn't canon or anything but, I remember fondly of a scene from the movie "Lord of the Rings: Return of the King" by Rankin-Bass where Frodo and Sam (mainly Frodo) were imagining a world without war and the orcs lived peacefully amongst the other races of Middle Earth. They lay along side a road that ran through the Shire smoking on their pipes and enjoying their day when they see two orcs, side by side, walking towards them unarmed and unarmored. They waved at each other like good ol' neighbors and was a very heart felt portrayal of what Hobbits would want the orcs to have a peaceful exisitence after the war but alas, that is not how it is to be. 😥
Not all the Orcs were under Sauron's influence. So they were acting independently.
If they become good or staying evil, they would turn evil again, when Melkor returns for the Dagor Dagorath. They are part of Melkor and they can't escape that.
After Sauron's fall, Orcs maybe went in the underground with the Namless Things, patiently waiting for Melkor's return. At that point Melkor would use all these creatures in the final battle.
I like that polit of view.
Kinda Lovecraftien when you think about it.... just my opinion
All orcs were under the influence of Sauron. They could not exist without that dark evil shield. Even when they were not under the spell of Sauron they still enacted his will.
Only problem with that is Melkor is imprisoned and won’t ever get out
@Art-is-craft Orcs are Melkor's creatures. They don't all respond to Sauron. If Melkor was there, they would leave Sauron alone. Or to better saying it, they would be slaves of Melkor, Sauron included
I have NOTHING but applause for such a well-thought and well-presented lecture!
Coincidentally, my Tolkien writers' group were discussing this very topic, and I'm pleased to see I used many of the arguments you presented - and you also presented new information for thought.
You, mellon nin, have earned a subscriber this day!
Nobody cares
@@rltw2753
rltw
@@SethMcFartlane Source?
@@rltw2753Wrong, I care
I hope you keep making videos! I find your presentations and voice very conducive to imagining the lesser known portions of a literary world I so enjoy learning more about. Well done
I believe, in the world of Tolkien, that the only "redemption" the Orcs could have would be death. That, in fact, the Orcs that killed themselves after Sauron's fall were the most redeemed for they saw the evil they had done and thus removed themselves from the world. Death is a gift, after all, and it may very well end their suffering.
Since orcs were a corruption of elves, and in mockery of elves, once the elves had left Middle Earth the original purpose of their making was also gone. And natural laws have a way of in time purging that which is not natural. So I think it may be that without some "dark lord" like Morgoth, Sauron, or Saruman to maintain and further develop orcs, Uruk-hai, etc. that ultimately their lines would fail and die off.
I think they were shrunk back and retreated to deep caverns as little goblems
@@kathybrem880 That is modern split/misconception, to Tolkien, goblin and orc meant the exact same thing. See orcrist meaning goblin slayer...
they retired in argentina
@@nabilchaouli3489 lol true, though they are both of the same really. (Edit: lol from what I can see, UA-cam has censored the comment I originally replied to?)
hahahaha true true 😅😅😅, best coment❤
How is this not the top comment
I heard one just got dissed by Kendrick Lamar
@@nabilchaouli3489I wonder how it became Palestine after being Israel before
The orcs lay low for millenia, but were gradually able to transition into work for various tax revenue services.
I hear they even set up a bank with misbegotten dwarvish gold...
@@cyberpimp29 ...best comment this year!
Orkish Tricks *intensifies*
What’s the elvish word for oy vey?
LMAO, that was excellent commentary!!
As an English professor who watched a few of your vids, I give you an A+. Masterful narration.
I personally like the idea that when Aragorn’s first days as king was to track down the remaining orcs and kill them all once and for all. Another dark lord may arise and use the orcs (something to think about)
Actually yes, king elessar leaded great armies into Mordor and the Ineer sea and layed waste to the realms of the dark lord and his warchiefs releasing all slaves (massive ammounts, a nation of slaves) there and giving them those lands to live and prosper afterwards. This was done almost immediately after the fall of Barad Dhur.
Ah yes, celebrating your victory over the ultimate evil with a rousing spot of genocide.
No dark lord was arising once the One Ring was destroyed.
If dark lords could just randomly spring up like weeds, no matter what, the entire journey towards Mt Doom for Frodo & Sam would have been pointless.
And in his evil wisdom & cunning, Sauron wouldn't have opposed the hobbits so strongly to protect the ring if dark lords could just spring up willy nilly.
Let's be careful not to replace Tolkien's stories with our own copy & paste speculations.
Genocide sounds quite bad to me. In general, just because Tolkien made it easy in dehumanizing orcs, so that it is ok if they got killed, they are still thinking, feeling, living beings and as such a genocide of them would be still a bad deed.
I've always thought that it was fortunate for Tolkien himself that he didn't continue on with Middle Earth after LOTR, or at least didn't publish anything more. Because the orcs would present a huge problem painting a rosy picture of Aragorn's reign. The orcs only power was in numbers. They weren't shown as organisers or generals or builders, nor does Tolkien characterise them as individual beings and what they might be capable of. But it's clear that it's unlikely that there would have been wars between orcs and men, or staged battles. The orcs would just be trying to survive in a changed world, where they had no friends or supporters, pushed to the peripheries, where resources would be hard won and come at grievous cost when humans sought revenge and retribution. What I'm saying is that I can't see any way in which the story could be taken further that didn't show that there would be pogroms and a war of extinction waged against the orcs. And that's not going to paint the good guys in a nice light.
That is not true at all if I remember right. Orcs were mentioned by tolkien as organizers, builders and generals. Also Tolkien mentions several individual beings. Just because the majority seem like nameless hordes does not mean that they do not have names, every single one of them. In fact Tolkien even writes about orcs that they are quite handy miners and builders and that they are able to create weapons of the quality of men easily, even thou made in crude designs.
So orcs could easily live without Sauron. As their hierarchy is based on the "strongest" simply one big brutal orc would become a new leader for them and when it comes to surviving probably no other species can hold their beer.
Really enjoyed this impressive video essay, thank you for posting!
"Until much has been done by the restored King [Elessar]. the P. [Prince] of Ithilien [Faramir] would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants..." [Tolkien, Letter #244]
An indication that Tolkien envisaged an 'orc-remnant' population, even after the fall of Sauron. And, as you say, orcs had survived a lengthy previous interregnum between Dark Lords. Indeed, so much so that some tribes remained willfully beyond Sauron's domination, well into the Second Age:
""But further East there were more and stronger kinds [of Orcs] , descendants of Morgoth's kingship, but long masterless during his occupation of Thangorodrim, they were yet wild and ungovernable, preying upon one another and upon Men (whether good or evil)... while the Eastern Orcs, who had not experienced the power and terror of the Eldar, or the valour of the Edain, were not subservient to Sauron - while he was obliged for the cozening of Western Men and Elves to wear as fair a form and countenance as he could, they despised him and laughed at him." {The Nature of Middle-earth, 3.XVIII).
Anyone else think, that, the end of the dwarves is how they began. Only in reverse. Peacefully falling asleep, returning to stone. An homage to aowle?
Peter dinklage put them all out of work, because he's an asshole. 😅
Sir,another fine entry,you have a soothing voice,perfect for storytelling… hopefully in the future you will touch on the little known regions of Middle Earth & the fate of the Blue Wizards 😊
Considering Tolkien mentions in the Hobbit that goblins *possibly* having a hand in the creation of nasty weapons such as he faced in WWI, it may be he was allowing the possibility that some remain, though of course in greatly diminished capacity, to this very day.
Goblins produced mustard gas
What??? lol
I never understood this passage from Hobbit
Yes, I agree. Rather than diminished capacity I would assume Tolkein would go for admixture which I think is a correct choice from a writerly perspective (mine but I think I'm not being off or idiosyncratic here). Dude was a bit of an odd chap sometimes but a lot of his choices once you accept the fashy fashness as a kind of autistic naivete are spot on. (I'm assuming possibly over generously from my informally diagnosed own issues)
@@rajasmasala ...Tolkien was never a fascist, and that's coming from a guy who once flirted with the ideology and nearly became a convert.
In one of his later letters to his son, he all but referred to himself as an Anarcho-Monarchist, wanting a king who made a point of "ruling" by only getting involved in times of necessity, but otherwise leaving the people alone to get on with their lives.
Very nicely done! I was particularly intrigued to discover through your video that the production of orcs from corrupted elves occurred very early in the history of middle earth; in fact very shortly after the creation of elves themselves. I had always assumed that this had occurred within the span of the thousands of years that made up the ages; not the creation time. With respect to their ending, I wonder however whether it would be possible for some of them to suffer less than complete destruction. Aragorn after all pardoned those of his enemies in front of the Gates to Mordor that gave themselves up and sued for mercy. Why could that not have included some orcs. The will to survive (as Shagrat and Gorbag pointed out) is strong in all creatures.
The issue is what to do with a band of Orcs that surrender?
Do you imprison them? Medieval societies only imprisioned aristocrats or other notable individuals. We know that Aragorn pardoned many of Sauron's mannish allies.
Do you resettle them? Again, this is unlikely. A band of Orcs is undesirable in any lands under the control of Gondor. Resettle them near a mannish settlement? That's just asking for trouble. Even if the Orcs had initially good intentions, they would grow hungry and steal from the peasants in short order.
Another option is to resettle them in Mordor. However, again, this is just asking for trouble. Without Sauron's army of logistics, western Mordor is unlivable. Only the fertile fields of Nurn are viable. However, do you let them set up residence there? We don't know exactly who inhabited Nurn at the end of the Third Age, but it was probably a combination of human and Orc slaves, with a handful of Easterling merchants and administrators.
Adding any large number of liberated Orcs to this region would likely drive out the human inhabitants as they would no longer be automatic allies with the Orcs. This region is far from Gondor, so it's probably not easy to maintain the peace.
Aragorn could release the Orcs beyond the borders of Gondor. This too is fairly unethical, as many would die in a search for new dwellings, or find themselves desperate and hungry and at odds with whatever settlements of Easterlings and Southrons they happen to chance upon.
While all you say is logical, I think the passages cited make clear that the Mordor Orcs were so enslaved and enchanted, they were closer to ants and a hive mind at the last gasp of Sauron's will, and they were so shocked, as in shell shocked, that they were incapable of rational thought and the best they could do is run and hide. They were described as witless and insane, unlike the proud men that refused to surrender, but fought and died to the last man.
Those that were pardoned were the innocent slaves that worked the farms and fields by the waters of Lake Nurn in the southern most reaches of Mordor.
IMHO, the only orcs that would have the capacity to surrender, were the half-orcs of Saruman/Sharkey, who came up the Greenway to harass the Hobbits and Breelanders. No more than ruffians, but still capable of more than the typical orc, they could set themselves up as robbers, or laborers, or more likely, hired mercenaries. I can't see or foresee any true Orc or Uruk-hai, able to shake off the taint of the Dark Lords to cooperate with Men, unless it was bad Men in a robber group. And the Dwarves would never make any kind of peace with them, but destroy any orc they would find. With all the orc warriors wiped out in all the various engagements throughout Middle Earth, all that would remain would be the orc strongholds of Mt Gundabad and Goblin Town. Both of those are in areas that the Dwarves and the Woodmen control, and the Dwarves wouldn't leave a single orc alive. That hatred is too pure to be reasoned with.
Within a hundred years, I'd believe that the orcs would be extinct.
Tolkien texts hint at the rules of treatment of orcs in war:
"....they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded."
Indeed when the Orcs were under the mental domination of Sauron or Morgoth they would be almost witless at the moment of their defeat, but when they were not under direct mind influence they could potenailly think of surrendering, though they prefered to either die fighting or flee....the only possible reference to orc surrender is this one side note in Wanderings of Hurin:
"He hates this folk. As soon as he saw us he reviled us. We gave him food and he spat on it. I have seen Orcs do so, if any were fools enough to show them mercy." (this obviously being directed at Hurin, and disingenous, but he is compared to orc captive :)).
@@fantasywind3923 That's fascinating! Thank you! Children of Hurin just moved to the top of my reading list.
Yes. I love the deep dive, heavily sourced. Very well done.
Tolkien was right when he said the corrupting of Orcs was Morgoth's greatest sin.
Orcs were not corrupted. There very presences was a corruption. They are not conscious are are just a living shell filled with evil.
what u mean tolkien was right? that old guy is the one that made the whole middle earth fantasy stories...he could pick and choose how he wanted it to be. right?....
@@kallelund4487 No because it is a subjective view on what is morally wrong or right. For example, if you personally didn't think that corrupting orcs was a bad thing to do, then you wouldn't think that was Morgoth's greatest sin. Tolkien's comment is in relation to his own moral view, and although he can pick and choose how he wanted it, you can also pick and choose what you think is right but obviously to Tolkien, corrupting an innocent race of beings into doing evil things was the greatest evil of all.
By that logic, one would expect the intent is that orcs are by-and-large irredeemable, because for them to have a chance at redemption would lessen Morgoth's sin, would it not?
@@SUPPLEGENIUS Eru, The One, could have just let Melkor have the power to create his own people and all of that war and corruption could have possibly been averted. He did with Aule, the Valar who created the dwarves out of stone as he had the same desire to create but due to this being an act of "defiance" in his eyes, although good natured, he stunted their race but still let them exist. Honestly, it's all kind of on Eru Illuvatar for not listening to his most esteemed Valar and outright denying him the ability to create for reasons that aren't really addressed or directly explained. That is essentially what led to him falling and corrupting living things. His initial desire to create was not necessarily malevolent. It's all subjective of course as is any matter of "good and evil" but just saying...
LOTR Online had taken orcs just seeking a new life into account. There are these islands and on one of them is a tribe of friendly orcs who want to be left alone pardon trading with a nearby town. A few of them came from Gundabad who deserted from their leader's fruitless campaign (you actually help them escape).
I always thought that the remnants of Sauron's subjects (more like victims) settled around the Sea of Núrnen, which Aragorn granted them as their land. It was never said directly it included orcs, but I always found it very likely.
Those peoples who were given Nurnen and the region were enslaved peoples made to raise food for the armies. The legendarium presents almost ALL orcs as soldiers... so no orc would raise food in farmlands. Those who received Nurnen under Aragorn were humans.
No it did not include the orcs. It was stated Aragorn gave that land to the slaves of Sauron and Sauron had human servants and slaves. Was not granted to orcs or trolls or other such evil servants
@@nataliestclair6176 The orcs are slaves and servants too. I would not call them employees or something like that, Sauron had victims and slaves only.
@@nialencapefet5154 yes they were slaves of Morgoth and later Sauron but they also worked independently as well and often did there own thing when Sauron was "in hiding" such as Azog and the orcs during the war with the Dwarves and his son Blog and the Battle of the 5 armies.
But again they were evil, corrupted, and hated all living things so I highly doubt any amnesty Aragorn granted he granted to orcs and trolls.
I have to agree with the video, after the Ring amd Sauron was destroyed, orcs most likely formed their.own bands and followed the strongest of their race as their leaders. They most likely went underground and raided human settlements when they could, fought amongst themselves etc.
They were hunted by men to extinction and like the Dwarves, just faded after time.
Maybe some large groups also went east to join up with the evil men there or went down to Harad amd joined them
After the fall of Suaron, both Aragron and Eomer fought side by side for years to subdue what remained of the followers of Sauron which included the men of Harad and the men of Rhun.
Orcs are evil beings and were often hunted by men and elves just to kill them.
@@nialencapefet5154semantics really because when talking about the two there’s a clear difference in how these thing would be considered. Regardless of the technicalities orca are servents of Sauron
You almost sound like Iain Glen, which I offer as a sincere compliment. Your voice is so thoroughly enjoyable to listen to, and your delivery is impeccable. Thanks for making such incredible content.
It´s AI dude ;)
Thanks for making this video. Gathering together those widely dispersed quotes and lines pertaining to the Orcs. I now can see with much greater clarity the differences between my interpretation of Orcs as compared to that of the Professor. For my part I have always believed that all sentient races have within themselves both good and evil influences. I do often cast a positive light upon those fell races, including Orcs. The Orcs of Erda (pronounced Air duh [from the same Germanic source as Tolkien's Arda]) have been forced into servitude to a series of dark masters. But where the roads diverge, these Orcs grow their own cities, have families, and eventually fight for their freedom.
Fantastic video, well thought-out and very informative! Be proud of this one.
I thought Tolkien recanted the Orcs Are Corrupted Elves theory, although it's my favorite. But considering how touchy the topic of Kinslaying is to elves, you'd think elves would show orcs more mercy. Unless they are corrupted elves and the only way to free them is to kill them so their spirits can return to Valinor. Then the more they kill the better.
great video. orcish lore in tolkien's work is always a bit blurred but maybe that's why it's so interesting.although their nature seems a bit fixed it is pleasing to think some of the orcs grew differently without the oppressing darkness and became more and more humanlike. they might even have their own heroes, traitors etc. accumulation of a hunter-gatherer, naturalist orc culture is not a far fetched thought for many fans like me.
I do wish there was at least one orc, who saw the error of his ways and became repentant. As mentioned, maybe able to do some trade with men or dwarves or elves. I believe that would be part of a great story regarding hope and / or redemption.
Me to. If not try to serve as a laborer on a farm. Learning new skills. Or a small independent group of them living in a camp or colony on thier own. Free of war, tyranny, and oppression. They can't breed, or reproduce on their own. So eventually they would die out.
The only problem with that is that they have basically zero impulse control.
Even if an orc "decided" to be good and just fit into the world of men, and even if the world of men accepted him, there would still be the lingering threat that as soon as he thinks he can get something, he'll go for it, regardless of consequences.
I always imagined that the last few bands of orcs really tried to make nice with the humans, hunting for them, trading with them...etc., but at the first opportunity, they turned back into their old selves and were forced to be dealt with.
Eventually, people would realize that the only way to deal with orcs is at the tip of a sword, which is basically enslaving them, and they weren't up to the task, so they just ended up killing and/or chasing away the orcs, which led to them dwindling day by day.
@@evanharrison4054 I was watched a few other video about orcs. They actually can reproduce via orc mating. I also didn't know that there are female orcs. You make a valid point. They have no impulse control. But maybe they can learn.
Wasn't it mentioned that whoever created orcs can't really create life, but only gross mockery of it?
Orcs are not really capable to live like humans, dwarves or elves as they lack self conscious and all of them are just dark magic subject of sauron, and since there's no sauron, they no longer have purpose. They're not "life", they're just construct to act as soldiers, they cannot be thought to live different. They're dark creatures living in darkness forever.
@@frankspikes7858 You just gave me an idea. See, orcs are naturally leaning towards evil, but it was greatly exacerbated by the presence of a dark lord who kept them in fear all their lives.
An interesting story would be about an orc who was born after the dark lord fell, who only has his natural inclination for evil, but would, at least in orc terms, be a lot less violent and a lot more capable of peaceful diplomacy than his enslaved ancestors.
I imagine him as sort of a mediator between his people and potential allies.
The abandoned sequel to the LOTR trilogy would have dealt with the rise of what we could refer to as moral ambiguity. In lieu of a dark lord, humans slowly devolved into a state of constant warfare(that continues to this day, if the Tolkien mythos is to be believed) and the last few remaining orcs, I imagine, would have taken their fair share out of that.
...anyway, basically Suicide Squad, but with orc mercenaries teaming up with fugitive human criminals, lead by a character who does his best to deny his own base instincts for the benefit of his dying race.
Sorry about the wall of text. If you are curious how I'd end the story, let me know and I'll type it out. If not, then let me apologize again for wasting your time.
P.S.: I hope I used Suicide Squad as an apt reference. Never seen it, just read the synopsis. Loved Peacemaker though...
The Orcs faded following the destruction of the One - as did the elves, dwarves and Hobbits (eventually) because all of their fates were tied to it, for good or ill.
In the Fourth Age, Orcs dwindled in number until finally becaming nothing more than myths and legends.
They have no place in the age of man.
This is one of the most thoughtful essays on Tolkien's writing I've heard. I worried about orcs since I was a kid, asking my mom where do they go when they die.
There was also a hint that sauron or saruman were breeding orcs with men to produce a hardier breed of orcs, and that's where the uruk hai came from.
I've often wondered about what happened to the Orks and could there be any good ones who live in harmony with the rest of Middle Earth. Great video
There has never been such a rich and diverse legendarium in the history of humankind. Let that marinate for a moment. Not Dante, not the anonymous author of Beowulf, not the Epic of Gilgamesh, not the Homeric writings and Poems, not Virgil's writings.....none of it.
As an author, Tolkien stands alone among all of humankind's scribes and poets. None of have created a world that remotely compares to Middle Earth. The detail, the lore, the languages, the dialects, Middle Earth even has its own creation story, just as all civilizations on Earth have.
It is precisely because of the magnitude of Tolkien's work and its sheer depth that it demands accuracy in its telling. A scholar could devote their entire scholastic careers to studying Middle Earth and not encompass the whole of it. What a remarkable mind Professor Tolkien had, indeed!
Here's an interesting anecdote. The word's "Beren" and "Luthien" appear on the gravestones of Tolkien and his wife. I often wonder if the good professor is living out his 'hereafter" in his Middle Earth with his wife in fashion similar to Tom Bombadil and Goldberry.
In his adjacent writings, Goldberry received a very noble and beautiful description that was typically only reserved for prominent female characters such as Galadriel, Melian and her daughter, Luthien or the Queens of the Valar.
Tokien compares Goldberry to "an elf-like queen clad in living flowers". Not even Luthien, herself, was given such a description.
This is why I believe Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were Tolkien's representations of himself and his wife within his works. He could've chosen some elf lord/king or some Human King and Queen to represent himself and his wife. But, he didn't. He created Tom Bombadil and Goldberry.
I'm not saying this is fact. Its my impression. But, that's the magic and brilliance of Tolkien's work. It can be interpreted many different ways and none of it is wrong. He left the story open so other authors could carry it forward.
In terms of scope and magnitude, Tolkien's Middle Earth stands as one of the wonders of the modern world. Few human creations compare. That means it up there with the Pyramids, The Hanging Gardens of Babylon, The Colossus of Rhoads, The Library of Alexandria and so on.
I simply must remember not to cut onions when reading....
Even the orcs you mentioned who were talking about trying to run off... it was to a place where they could loot and murder, just without the bosses.
Like the race of Man never looted or murdered just for the pleasure of it.
Very much like blks
@@Cinerary rent-free
@@isaacm2374rent free, as in you and your homies not having to pay rent in prison.
@@assrammington7961 Still going. Truly obsessed.
Did the elves ever try to redeem any orcs? Maybe very early on, recognizing their ruined cousins? Did the elves always hate the orcs or did they try to save any?
The original ruined elves made orcs were beings they might have actually known?
Boy how that would suck, knowing you could have been born a beautiful and and talented and immortal elf and instead you were born a repulsive orc.
@58jharris well put. Gives a big time reason for the orcs to hate.
I think not. In biological terms, the orcs would have completely become a different family, as different as a dog is from from a toad. There would not be any useful interactions, and I hardly think any orc would remember that there were descended from the line of elves once. Their brains are completely degenerated.
Also, as stated, orcs' have much shorter live-spans than elves, shorter than even men.. They can be killed and ravaged by diseases. So the elves would not have known any of the current batch of orcs.
@Wann-zo7rn2qn4i gotcha. So even the first generation of elves, the initially destroyed, probably were not understood to be former elves by elves that avoided the torture?
Or maybe the first perverted were never released to meet their former kin? Nothing to recognize? Guessing then that the early orcs (2nd generation+) were not even aware of what they used to be? No going to elves and saying save me?
Orcs were not cousins of elves. They were a corruption of pure evil.
I can imagine, centuries later, small bands of Orcs would still exist in the far away, unexplored regions of middle earth.
Good video! The FIRST orcs were corrupted elves. Maybe their spirits had a chance of redemption. But later orcs were bred as orcs from orcs. So they are less of elvish origin and more tied to their evil creators. And they seem to have absolute loyalty to their masters. They are perhaps tied to their creators fate and can't be redeemed. What happens to an orc's spirit upon death is perhaps not known.
Orcs only had absolute loyalty to Morgoth. It's clear that they feared and perhaps even loathed Sauron. One even hints that they don't much care for following Sauron and they know full well what kind of treatment they can expect.
Tolkien wrote about the final battle against Morgoth, that creatures of all races fought on both sides and elves alone were only on the side of good- meaning that back then there were orcs that fought against Morgoth.
So the capacity for goodness was likely in them.
Dark elves ?????
@@supa3ek
Not in that battle, and to my knowledge not anywhere in Silmarilion
Bad Hobbits?
@@891Henry possibly
Well it is said about orcs that they hated themselves but that they hated Morgoth even more so why not should there be some orcs, under some strong orc leader, who fought against Morgoth?
I just came across your channel and love the content. Subscribed right away. By the way, I think you should seriously consider doing audiobooks. You got a good voice that's comfortable listening to.
…. it’s A.I …
@@only_truthsaik9481 Don't know, don't care dude.
@@raftai665 hahahaha! chill … i dont see a problem man! i also don,t care but i just only give you a info is AI generated voice..Take care ! peace bro ✌️
Suilánte! Just found your channel. Way cool dive into an old mystery that eluded even Tolkien! In The New Shadow, I interpret the orc cult that the boy is part of might be head by an old, likely one of the last, orcs or mixed breed. Slowly and secretly corrupting with stories of the cruel men of the west that slaughtered their race. Tolkien might have thought that orc ancestry could be mixed into modern peoples. Like we could have a little elf, hobbit, even Maia, (probably not dwarf) ancestry, and unfortunately orc too. Fun to think about. Look forward to checking out your other vids!
To be completely honest, I came here to witness another hilarious redemption campaign for orcs(the personification of evil and ill wil) and what I got instead was a truly impressive piece of research and presentation about one of the most evil creatures in fantasy worlds. Many of us actually don't have a clue about what happend with the race of the orc in Middle Earth after Sauron's downfall and for this video I am very grateful, for it is a long time since I've read any of Tolkien's books and so I don't recall many of these fine details. Thank you for refreshing some of my most beloved memories.
the personification of evil and repulsions are humans and elves, not orcs. trollkien himself is a perfect example due to the lies and bile he published.
@@mardenhillnah
@@bubsnicket yah
@@mardenhillok, Grima Wormtongue.
@@mardenhill wait what did tolkien say
I thoroughly enjoyed the exploration of such a “what if“ subject. In truth, anything to do with a legendarium seizes my interest.
Subscribed with gratitude.
Remember, too, that the Dominion of Men began after the end of the Third Age and the passing of the Elder Days. Not only did Men increase, but Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, and Orcs all faded into legend. Tolkien himself cast back and forth over the nature of Orcs and their creation. I think, perhaps, he may have come to the conclusion that although they were not beings with spirit like Elves and Men, they were more a manifestation of the corruption of Arda. Rather then imbued with spirit, which comes from Eru, they were simply animate clay. Given form and function by the malice of Melkor. Which would also account both for the inability for the redemption of, and ultimate fading of, the Orcs after the Third Age.
Good stuff! Poignant. Good art work, too.
I'm quite sure I have not stumbled upon "Realms Unravelled" until now. I don't recognize it anyway.
But I'll be looking for more of your stuff. Count on it.
Don't forget that Sauron didn't die, but was reduced to a pale shadow. I suspect this shadow attached itself to one of the weakest of his followers.
Somewhere out there in Middle-earth, a lone Orc walks the world. He watches his people dwindle and wonders in solitude what keeps him alive.
No. He lost all form and could never be embodied again. Just as Morgoth was banished from the realm of the living.
@@Art-is-craft No, he was not banished like Morgoth. He could never embodied again, but maybe hold on to a weak soul.
@@benbecker2004
Sauron was banished.
@@Art-is-craft Proof it! 😉
@@benbecker2004you might need to start reading again or watch movies it's mentioned few things times... 😅
Awesome video, knew most of this, but your story telling style, beat and awesome story telling voice make it worth listening to again brother.
Kind regards,
Solo-Sweden
Thanks. I really enjoyed the artwork and the presentation was great. I am always fascinated with middle earth.
Its all either AI art or stolen. Don't praise this hacky art.
This is fantastic, well crafted. Good work!
As a kid when my Dad read me the Lord of the rings I never thought about the concept of orcs being good, I would go off into the woods find a stick and slay as many as I could. However since growing older, I think it would have been really interesting to have one lone Orc join the fellowship at some early point and slowly earn the trust and ultimately befriend them.
I’ve only known the movies, but I always wondered what would happen if that commander ork who captured Mary and Pippin developed an ultra-protective attitude towards them, survived the cavalry raid, killed that crazy hungry ork in a 1-on-1 duel, and eventually defected from his mission-driven reasoning as to why to spare the hobbits for so long; omitting the inclusion of Tree-Beard’s appearance since the course of those three went on an alternative path.
I loved this video in the first second
They all went to Azeroth
Just came across this visionary tail. I found it soothing and informative, and the telling of the ONE" and the realms of Middle Earth and your voice explaining the narrative is like listening to a talking of a book for the blind . You have now got a regular listener and watcher to your channel. Keep up the great work and knowledge as I hope there maybe more followers to you and the middle earth ...👍👍👍👍
What a wonderful journey! Insightful and thoughtful. Get's me thinking.
I like the idea that the orcs, after going into hiding, would have been hunted by men perhaps, but also we know that men and elves can breed, and it is implied that orcs and men can breed as well. Its possible that in order to maintain their line at all orcs could kidnap human women and force them to bear their half orc children. While many would be slain for the horrors that orcs are always want to commit or in battle, the remaining may have died out due to half orcs breeding with men and spreading orc genes thinly throughout the races of men of middle earth. This would also do something to explain why the lives of men in Gondor and even those of the Dunedain shortened in the many years after Aragorns death.
If there is any hope for the orcs it lies in the east; in the lands of Rhun, Harad and further beyound wich would still face strifes and conflicts even withought Sauron's influence. There, the human tribes and kingdoms have some precedents in fighting alongside them and may prove more tolerant of their existance than their conterparts in the west. In these lands, orc tribes could be hired to fight as mercenaries in echange for gold and meat (most likely taken from slain ennemies). The interactions that would come from such partnerships could be the fondations for a brighter future.
The orc armies of Mordor were not defeated in battle...they were betrayed by certain citizens in the home front, then their leadership killed Sauron and spread around rumors of rings and magic to avoid responsibility and take power on to themselves...this gave rise to the rumor that the orcs were stabbed in the back...
In his later writing Tolkien changed his mind about Orks (his later preferred spelling). When he published the Silmarillion, he would make the origin of their race come from corrupted Men, not Elves. This is one of several changes his son did not take up into his version of the Silmarillion but really should have. (I can't remember which book of the History this is from, possibly Morgoth's Ring.)
I also know the version with corrupted elves.
So they didn't go back home to their families and take care of their orc babies?
Hahaha
I know this is a dig at RoP, but this is a legitimate question that has plagued the nerd community for almost 70 years now. There's a famous GRRM quote asking if Aragorn sent riders to "kill the little orc babies in their little orc cribs".
This video blew up for you i see. Well done
They bulit houses and raised their beautiful children.
as someone who only has seen the movies your video's are amazing, having EU4(a convoluted strategy game that takes 1k hours to learn) with the Lotr mod helps as well.
Rings of power orcs were family oriented
1 was
Damn that show.
I watched it all in one sitting and can't and don't want to remember any of it.
Out of place humanoids of color where at the top of the list of frustrating things, it killed the mood right at the beginning.
Beyond that story is total dump.
@@dragasinbrankovic So you had a problem that there were asian elf's, jesus
Aragorn ended up having to spend most of his reign having to commit genocide, thus sowing a seed of evil now no longer personified.
Morgoth won.
They traveled back in time.
The experience was so traumatic that changed them to their core. They became caring husbands and wives, appearing in a horrible tv show via a portal, whose opening sounded weirdly like the words "fuck Tolkien".
Read Tolkien's extended works before you embarrass yourself any further.
Great voice for narrating. Has a calming effect.
video starts at 10:51
Thxs
I know all of us have a low attention span, but cmon, it was interesting to something out of topic
I loved your scripting and delivery, it's very immersive! subbed :)
Interesting - Those two orcs at Cirith Ungol both talked about "the old days". Presumably that would be before being in Sauron's service, which could mean centuries. I suspect that means the orcs have a long life expectancy, even if it doesn't mean immortal.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the king of Goblintown recognized Glamdring and Foehammer, swords made and used by Gondolin in the 1st age, by sight alone. Implying perhaps, that that particular orc was likely thousands of years old, even if not dating to the first age. Glamdring and Foehammer were presumably lost for quite a long while, as no elf ever claimed to own them ("Hey! My brother, the legendary warrior Sindoglorian went missing in the ettenmoors 300 years ago with that sword, which was weilded at the fall of Gondolin by our grandfather! I'm sure glad you found my family heirloom, gimme here pleaze")
@@userequaltoNull in the case of swords it may be also partly cultural...Orcs also tell tales, and pass down tales of the old days and history...the only actual hint at the orc age is the case of Bolg, son of Azog, Azog died as we know in battle of Nanduhirion, which was year 2799....and Bolg his son was leading Orcs in battle during events of The Hobbit in year 2941 T.A. Bolg during his death at Battle of Five Armies would have been at least....around 142 years...definitely more. The other Tolkien texts mention various theories on their lifespan, nature, afterlife fate etc.
It seems that men have the shortest lifespan in Middle earth.
Excellent video. I wish we had some stories about the last orcs as their misbegotten race vanished.
There is a point you haven't considered. Pragmatism. Indeed, that is an important question unto itself. Can the Orcs exhibit pragmatism because if they can, they don't need to be redeemed to live in peace with men, it can be a purely pragmatic decision when the alternative is the annihilation of their race.
What a wonderfully enjoyable channel. Every video I'm mesmerized by the engaging narration and intriguing artwork. Only 35k subs? I imagine it will be 1 million in no time with this kind of content. Thank you!
So... What do you think about caring orc dads?
Legolas and Gimli took their contest a little bit further and were happily doing orc genocidy everywhere they went during their sightseeing tour.
We know from real world history that tribes that fought each other were always crushed by centralized cooperative forces. Without a dark overlord it seems obvious that orcs will not unite under one banner. They will fight and backstab each other. So I assume the humans just cleared them one by one.
Why am i just finding your channel!!! I'm a die hard lord of the rings fan!! My wedding ring was the ONE RING TO RULE THEM ALL lol
I thought on that one myself... concluded that Ring would be in the worst of taste.
Tangentially, I hope some LOTR page has downloaded all the West Lothian Police vs the One Ring Net-wackery. A laugh like that deserves to be preserved, handed down; at the least wheeled out for science fiction conventions. Not least because West Lothian also saw the humor of the situation. Perhaps it might be read aloud, in a round-robin circle, the way they once did with _The Eye Of Argon._ Break up and you have to pass on the reading to the next reader.
They went to Washington, DC and became the federal government.
Bro, so edgy
Exactly.
More likely they became MAGA
They became MAGA Republicans Lol.
@@michaeldpa1333 or the squad
I love the artwork that you included in this video!
The surviving Orcs eventually went to Harvard and other Ivy League schools and now work on Wall St. & Madison Ave. for the most part, though a number of them eventually became congressmen/women from Georgia, Arkansas and Mississippi, or opened trailer parks in Florida.
Hardly. They would inhabit Illinois, Massachusetts and New York. States poorly run and people are leaving.
@LadyAlaina42-c3e actually... orcs are fictional and I was making a funny - but thanks for coming out, Champ
@paulcarey1708 sorry! Iam getting too wrapped up in real life! My bad!!
@@paulcarey1708no you were not. Being a Biden Harris supporter you took it where your mentality always does. Projection.
@insideoutsideupsidedown2218 not exactly, but must admit I find it fascinating so many Americans are actually buying cheeto's shtick.
Very well thought out. I enjoyed this. Nicely done
Over generations….
They eventually evolved into what we know today as Redditors and Twitter users.
Devolved or regressed you mean?
After the main storyline was over, the Orcs just stand there idling if you no-clipped back into Mordor but there won’t be any real texture around them just low res floor .
Some beautiful pictures on this video
8:00 This is conclusion does not consider the context of thier words. They wanted to go where there was easy loot and no bosses. Loot implies they wanted to be raiders, theives, and bandits. So they were not interested in peace. They were just not wanting to be caight up in other people's wars.
Skipped half of the video to get to the question asked.
Amazing content brother 👏🏼
I’m not watching an AI LoTR video, sorry
Did you want me to get you a helmet for when you fall off your fucking high horse?
?
You have a great storyteller voice. 10/10
Bottom line. No one knows the answer to this question. Some people have opinions. Period.
This was wonderful and so insightful! Thank you! We all must remember that these books were written for us to study ourselves. Through the lens of mythology. But we do not learn and hate all we cannot come to understand.
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