When did Saruman become evil? From the moment he became secretly envious of Gandalf in Aman. Pride awoke and so began a slow, depressing descent into evil.
@@zorenadeckard I can't imagine Christopher Lee being the life of a hobbit birthday party. He would have made a strange Gandalf...but he was almost perfect as Saruman.
@@Darkwintre I was kidding obviously but if they did that's really cool. Imagine them discussing him playing the character at the time. That would be amazing.
He was always proud and was jealous of Gandalf, even when he was righteous. Saruman's lust for power and his usage of the Palantir made him vulnerable to Sauron, who coaxed Saruman into embracing the darker aspects of his nature which were already present back when he was on the good side.
What’s wild is that Saruman never served Sauron nor bent to him at all in the books. The Gandalf locked in the Tower bit is explained ONLY in the Unfinished Tales Book: In [manuscript-C) The Black Riders arrived at the Gate of Isengard while Gandalf was still a prisoner in the tower. In this account, Saruman, in fear & despair, & perceiving the full horror of service to Mordor, resolved suddenly to yield to Gandalf, & to beg for his pardon & help. Temporizing at the Gate, he admitted that he had Gandalf within, & said that he would go & try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them. Then Saruman hastened to the summit of Orthanc - & found Gandalf gone. Away south against the setting moon he saw a great Eagle flying towards Edoras. See, the thing is he was always master of studying the enemy & even being able to think like they do to always know exactly the best ways to handle ever situation and so on, but the thing is he didn't just become the enemy, he at this time in a sense for once actually grew afraid of him, probably Sauron did what Sauron did with Finrod Felagund in the duel of visions, (Galadriel’s elder brother who by the way was the most important in the Legendarium & is the main reason the third age even exists) which basically widdled Saruman with various visions of the past and future until it wore him down, but Saruman(Curumo) was the mostly already becoming weary due to what was called The Long Defeat, magic bleeding out from the lands of middle earth and subsequently certain things become less and less possible and the elves begin to go west. Even the ones who never wished to leave middle earth and many of which were born here by the thousands. So him also being a student and helper of Aulë of the Valar he was going to fight fire with fire and make a bid for the ring just so Sauron could never regain full power and if Saruman found a way to release himself from his power restrictions even by any small margin or worked with Eru in some way it might have worked out in the end if things went differently enough to where such action from him would be needed. Ontop of that he was growing ever jealous of Gandalf for he received the Varya from Círdan and prior to that was chosen by the other Valar, Nienna’s chosen champion to go to middle earth. But Gandalf(Olórin back then) refused over and over and exclaimed his fear of Sauron(Mairon), varya I feel would have kindle the heart of Saruman to stay strong as he had been fighting the evils of the world for a very long time since he had been sent to Middle Earth. And for the is reason Saruman wished to hold the ring at hostage. Keep Sauron from taking back his full strength and basically use it to stave off The Long Defeat. Saruman is very complex. The Hobbit movies actually shows how he was even 60 years ago during Bilbo’s story. He was one of the main forces thwarting Sauron for over 2000 years. The Númenoreans: the high men of the west; gifted Saruman with Orthanc which was of their making. Now known as Isengard. - saruman is actually trying to doublecross sauron. He wants the ring for himself. He thinks he can control it. The little orcs around saruman are from mordor - sauron's orcs sent to help saruman but also to spy on him. The big fighting orcs - the uruk hai - are loyal only to saruman. Orcs are like that. But its why saruman's orders are a bit vague - to avoid sauron's orcs knowing what saruman is doing. The movies dont make this bit of the story very clear. But notice that, while saruman knows where the fellowship is he never lets Sauron Know.
It is hard to keep track of all the characters involvement, because they are so plenty and rich. The true masterpiece and the depth of J.R.R.. Tolkien writing. What a legend!
It's a very deep book. Some of the characters have so many names it does get confusing. I read it as a youngster in school after reading The Hobbit in English lessons. Enjoyed both books very much, but enjoyed LOTR even more when I read it again a few years later. A second read meant picking up things much easier. It's a more 'grown up' book than The Hobbit, but this was purposely done to link it to The Silmarillion which Tolkien had a hard time getting published (it's even more 'grown up' than LOTR!). I remember being disappointed with Silmarillion, at first, but it grew on me and, along with Unfinished Tales, would recommend it to fans of all things 'Middle Earth'.
What I find most intriguing in all of this is that Gandalf refused both of the honors that Saruman envied him for. He would not come to Middle Earth unless ordered; he declined heading the White Council after Galadriel nominated him. He also was given Narya by Cirdan without ever asking for or seeking to receive it. And yet Saruman was envious of _him_ - not the people who trusted and respected him. Gandalf would be the first to admit that Saruman surpassed him in knowledge, wisdom, leadership; and yet Saruman still resented him. Saruman was worse than evil; he was petty, from very early on.
This is, unfortunately, common in life. Many people will commit acts of treachery and horror out of pain and loss over something that you don't even know is occurring, and don't even want to happen to you 😅
"Beyond the linguistic talents of Tolkien... In the depths of the UA-cam Comments... Atop an ever growing mountain of replies... Lies michaeljones9553, corrupting the Great Works with his vile Mortal Tongue."
I love what Gandalf says to Saruman when discovering his treachery. There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will, and he does not share power." Gandalf never struggled with Saruman's lust for power, he did not see himself as an equal to Sauron... All the accolades and titles as well as being the "greatest" wizard sent, Saruman saw himself as a worthy opponent... Sure if he attained the Ring he might depose Sauron, but he would only have become him, a weaker, paler imitation... To be honest though, I don't think if he came close to obtaining it that he could withstand the Nazgul... Gandalf had a special propensity for light and fire that we don't see Saruman wield, and this is speculation, but I would imagine that Gandalf's pure heart is part of the reason he prevailed when facing evil.
When Tolkein began writing his Epic, he wanted it to become the Epic of the English peoples. And so humility, courage and duty were the virtues he wanted to show. Gandalf was all three - humble, courageous and dutiful. These are aspirational values for the Brits, and have been corrupted, Saruman-like, in former British territories such as the United States, where courage and duty are lauded, but not humility.
@@Sagan_Starborn Humility needed to be displaced by audacity in order to free our people from tyranny. The western world would no longer exist without us. Thank your lucky stars we protect your sorry asses.
Unlike the movies, the books actually confirm that those who are as powerful as Sauron can indeed bend the ring to their will. However, the results of wielding the ring would yield the same corrupting tendencies of destruction and evil from that individual as it would had Sauron taken it back in the first place.
@@Jake-fw5te well, that would be the Lords of the West, since powerful Noldor such as Galadriel would try to fight him with armies - not truly master the Ring. Tolkien considered only Gandalf to be able to maybe master the Ring. And that would be a very close call, since Sauron would be exhausted by dominating the minds and wills of his servant armies and by not being in possesion of the Ring. So in all the Peter Jackson movies did a splendid job.
@@Jake-fw5te I always got the impression that the Wise (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Co.) were wary of the Ring's power and influence precisely because they were wise enough to see past the promise of power and glory the magic of the Ring promised. They knew that if they were to take up the Ring and "bend" it to their will, they would be locking themselves in a permanent struggle for dominance with Sauron... Not only did no one possess the will/strength to content with him forever, if they succeeded long enough, they would be corrupted by Sauron's influence and become something twisted and evil beyond recognition. All this said, Saruman, coming from the same clade of maiar as Sauron, would have a greater propensity to see living beings as a moldable and craftable material to achieve his designs and machinations. It would not have been long till he became Sauron 2.0. I would consider this irrelevant though, because I don't think that he ever had a hope of defeating Sauron with his own instrument, I think that similarly to anyone else, Sauron's mastery over the Ring would have resulted in it corrupting the bearer, and then betraying him/her (as it had countless others) and this is why Saruman spent countless centuries studying ringcraft and the magic that was used. Even after he succumbed to the temptation of power, he still needed to convince himself that he could actually wrestle power from Sauron by his own methods. That said, I think the implication behind ANY of them attempting to do so was: if they were to claim it for themselves, they may start off using it for good, maybe even defeat Sauron, but their corruption and his ultimate victory would be inevitable. Sauron's influence was bound to the Ring, and in taking it as their own they would be essentially making a great portion of his evil a part of themselves, and in doing so preserve his spirit to grow in power itself... anything but the Ring's destruction only represents a hiccup in his eventual dominion of Middle Earth.
Always liked the fact that even though Tolkien laid the foundations of his fall within the character of Saruman, he made it clear that the first white wizard was for a long time a true ally of the light, and did for a time seek to learn of Sauron's craft to undo him. After all, they were both students of Aule and he likely thought that could be used to undo the Dark Lord. Saruman was not compelled but made choices that damned him by degrees over time. As a reader I always wonder what would have become of the story if someone could have seen the path he was on sooner and gotten through to him, but that fall is the point of his character since Tolkien saw good men go bad in war.
I have only just discovered your channel and have watched but a few of your wonderful videos thus far. Despite my limited experience with your content, I am already enamoured of this channel's offerings; the information imparted, the style in which it is conveyed to the student of Tolkien's work, and the richness of the narrator's voice, all combine, in harmony, to create a thoroughly enjoyable experience. Here, therefore, is a small token of my appreciation---would that I could but spare more coppers!
Nicely done, good selection of art, great presentaton voice! And you content, noting the sources of quotes has a legitimacy that many channels that don't provide their sources can't emulate. Thank you!
I believe his first step to falling was when he gave up hope that Men and Elves could defeat Sauron and instead believed that he would need to do so himself. Instead of strengthening them, he sought to strengthen himself. At that point, he had already lost the purpose of his mission.
That sort of makes sense...somehow It's the "Wise Sage sending a Child to defeat the Dark Lord", which apparently, sounds plain stupid at best for Saruman
I've watched Peter Jackson's movies a 50 plus times. All the long times and such. Still haven't felt disappointed. The books are exciting am sure. But it's Viggo and Orlando and Cate who sealed the deal for me. Acting is just ❤❤❤
The books are far, far beyond the films. There is no way to even compare the depth and breadth in comparison. Peter Jackson did a phenomenal job, but there is no way to capture the feel of the books in a movie. Not fully. I assume you haven't read it, based on your comment. You are doing yourself a huge dis-service.
I LOVE ALL things Tolkien, the real Tolkien, fantastic video and I love your channel it’s added as one of my favorites thank you and keep up the good work brother!!
Putting the excellent content and research about the lore itself aside for a second, you are a fantastic narrator who does justice to the scripts you write. Can listen to you all day. Bravo sir.
The life story of Saruman it's the story of any person temptaited by any means of passion through the pride... it's so sad that so so strong and powerful istari fall...
I hope you don't mind I had to watch three times to catch all the details.... I was distracted.... but; this is also very detailed and I truly enjoyed this video and its information!
See, I always thought it was fear of Sauron and self preservation that drove him down this path. Like one man said "Better to be the right hand of the devil, then in his path." Loved the video BTW.❤
Excellent. Instantly subscribed. Excellent pronunciation of names and places (unlike other uploaders who cannot correctly pronounce "Eriador"!) Excellent insight and thorough research. Your own diction is beautiful too, bridging sequences of narrative between Tolkien's own, which are of an exemplary standard of English, so I salute you highly. Sláinte from Ireland.
I love how informative these videos are when it comes to Tolkien's lore. Thank you very much, Realms! Speaking of him, could you perhaps do a video one day about the grape-eating Denethor? My dad read the books many a time and explained why he was so hostile with Faramir, but I would love to hear your take on it!
Aule trained both Saruman and Sauron and created a race that destroyed and hated the creations of his wife. He is like, the third worst guy in the whole Legendarium.
Dwarves did not hate trees. Orcs hate. Dwarves just have need for trees and animals as any other children of Eru. Aule is not a bad guy here. After all, he created all elements of of the universe from which Arda and maybe even Eä itself is made of. And he is not evil. It would be unfair to blame Aule. Both Mairon and Curumo had their free will and turned evil out of their own volition.
@@matiasluukkanen7718 Maybe hate is an strong word but is fear? Did Gimli fear Fanghorn? Undoubtedly. Dwarves do have need for trees but my point is that they ARE NOT children of Eru. Aule just created them because he is kind of a dick. And sure, if one of your Maiar goes bad, maybe that is just bad luck, but two? Bad mentorship. So, is he evil? No, you are right; he absolutely is not. Yet, He is a terrible husband, an absentee teacher, and an amoral prick. I don't like him! But third worst WAS overkill, i grant you. All the best!
I have my own opinion on this, so just my two cents here, probably will be long, sorry! Also hoping this doesn’t sound like an Argument, simply interested in this conversation haha Well. I disagree. They are now children of Eru. Although adopted, still claimed by Eru. And he created them because he loved creation. And wished to share it. Aule himself says this. "I desired things other than I am, to love and to teach them, so that they too might perceive the beauty of Eä, which thou hast caused to be. For it seemed to me that there is great room in Arda for many things that might rejoice in it, yet it is for the most part empty still, and dumb. And in my impatience I have fallen into folly. Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father." He’s a smith. He loves to create as his father created. So in his impatience of the coming of the children of Eru, he created his own. I wouldn’t say he’s a “Dick” for that. And if we do say he is such. What would that mean for Eru then? One of his children is undoubtedly the worst one of them all. You should t blame the Teacher for the foolishness of the Student. I feel the reason for His students (Sauron and Saruman and Some Noldor, notably Faenor) Failure and turning to Evil was that they were too ambitious, that’s just what creative work tries or you, however unlike his Students, Aule remained humble before Eru and his Authority. While Aule, in his own way, Did rebel. He did seek forgiveness unlike the others and most importantly, Melkor. And if we say Aule is bad because his “Students” turned to evil. What about the others? Multitudes of Maia followed Melkor afterwards. So who’s to say who these Maia, Such as gothmog and Durins bane followed before they turned to Morgoth.
@@loremasterghosty Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I can see where you are coming from but allow me to fine tune my distaste for Aule. When I call him a dick, I don't mean he is evil; he never became corrupted. Rather, as the embodiment of technological progress, He can't help but be a dick. That is what Eru intended. Tolkien, I think, makes his views on unfettered progress at the expense of the natural world plain. Sauron, Faenor, Saruman, Durin VI (arguably), and others all fell to ruin because they sought to dominate, possess, or exploit natural aspects of Arda. While Aule probably abhorred their actions, they all fall under His purpose. Progress in of itself isn't inherently good or bad but I think Tolkien viewed it as the easiest, and maybe inevitable path, to evil. His heroes distain any machine beyond a water wheel. I THINK we are supposed to be in the 7th Age now and technology is running amuck. I think Aule, the dick, is nodding his head and saying something like: yes but Humans will still need wood and lithium and coal. Anyways, thanks again!
You know, some people believe Tom Bombadil is Aule, and it would be an interesting twist if he sort of exiled himself to Middle Earth out of a sense of responsibility for all of the problems of Sauron, Saruman and the Noldor.
Aulë and his Maiar are divine beings who embrace materialist philosophy. Since Melkor's will permeates all kinds of materials related to Arda, such divine beings associated with this material are susceptible to being influenced by his will. For this existential reason, they tend to impose on other beings with free will what they think and believe is good for them. They feel the need and desire to have the power to achieve this. It is inevitable that they will corrupt and evolve into evil (mainly the will of Melkor) within the power they have and have acquired.
Jealousy and pride. I have always been interested in the duality of pride. On one hand pride is one of the seven deadly sins, but on the other hand, we are always told to take pride in our work and do a good job. I think that the sin of pride is the focus on self. My favorite explanation of not being prideful is to imagine you led an important achievement that would help many people (say a cure for cancer). Lacking the sin of pride would be if you were happy that the ultimate outcome and just as happy whether it was your own work that accomplished it or the work of others- as long as the best outcome was achieved.
Pride. It came down to hubris in the end, and the simple slight against exactly that. The movies might have needed to speed the process up, it was an inevitability from the beginning.
This voice sounds far too like Robert's from In Deep Geek channel who also covers lotr. So much so I thought I'd clicked on the wrong channel. Bring back the old erudite voice, please. It's perfect for narration.
It's wild that Sarumon came over with raven black hair, meaning he aged into white. Meanwhile Gandalf came already clad as an older looking man, to be less imposing when meeting with him and his advice be more appreciated for just the look of so many years
@@logangodofcandy why is that? You weren't stabbed in the head by any chance? All joking aside, I am sorry and shocked that you were stabbed, but I love rings of p, and for many reasons. Please give specific reasons why you found it so bad? Personally, I'd rather poke out my own eyes than endure the hobbit movies ever again, but there you go.
I would like to offer a theory on Saruman. It is stated in Tolkien's works that Yavanna begged he that would become Saruman to take one who served her (known later as Radagast.) Saruman was dismissive of Radagast and grudgingly agreed. Saruman headed East whence the two Blue Wizards had gone. What took place in the East we will never known. But, Saruman, like Sauron, had a like for order. His research into Sauron's works led to jealousy, this and other events caused Saruman to look only to his own gain!
If I remember rightly it because he was so arrogant and prideful that he saw it as admitting that gandalf had something he wanted from him and he himself wanted to be mighty "ring maker" and had no need of elven trinkets.
The books says when he found the palantril. Looked into it and tried to force it away from Sauron & got trapped instead like how wormtongue did with his lord.
Gandalf should had owned Isengard. It could be a sanctuary for the Ents a safe fortress for both the wizard and the ent and they could help to dig up some iron to make weapons and armour for the good so they can build up strong numbers against the dark lord. And having ents carrying the materials would make it a lot easier. Also imagine the peace came back and the entwives could be reborn and ents can once more rise up again. Protecting the Fangorn and with Gandalf wise power helps ents to restore Fangorn so new trees may grow and Isengard can once again become beautiful as it was before.
Well explained. Like many, I have read the books more than once. It never occurred to me that Saruman created his own evil. Sauron became evil because it grew in his heart. But Saruman could only create a copy of Sauron's evil because he was doing it in his weakened wizard form. They had the same teacher, so their relative knowledge and strength must have been comparable (not necessarily equal. Saruman's evil seems more innovative though, as he created the Uruk-Hai, a vastly superior creature to the orc, descended from tortured and twisted elves.
In the morning, O Lord, You hear my voice; in the morning I lay my requests before You and wait expectantly. You are my help and my shield; in You my heart rejoices. Psalm 138:3
Saruman seems to be the embodiment of the saying, 'Beware those who cloak themselves in good deeds'. He would have made a good politician. From the start he had extreme envy and jealousy of Gandalf who was very unassuming, didn't class himself as powerful and had to be ordered to go to Middle Earth. This must have annoyed Saruman immensely. The fact that Gandalf was seemingly more trusted and given tasks by the white council doubtless infuriated Saruman. My husband has read the LOTR books back when he was 15, he is now 57. He also tried the Silmarillion but could not get into it. This is where the band Marillion got its name from. This very well done clip in terms of artwork, information and very good voice over, explains that Saruman, in effect, was a Sauron fanboy who wanted to be just as bad as him. The fact that he bred his own Orcs and how he did it is disgusting. Due to his massive ego and lust for power, you could see, thanks to this clip, the inevitable slow slide into black evil well before he was conversing with Sauron via the stones. Again, a very well done clip in terms of pulling information together from multiple sources and bringing it together to form a well explain timeline.
The desire for power to asert control over others. It's kind of the whole theme of all the books. Life is choas to bring order you have to eliminate free will.
I still think it’s a shame they didn’t show “Saruman of many colors “ in the movie . I was looking forward to see how they were going to do it , then they just knocked out of the story .
Why and how would Saruman recruit Orcs from the North of the Misty Mountains? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to have recruited them from the Southern part of the mountains?
@@danhubert-hx4sscan't tell if you kidding or not, cirdan is the only one known n said to have a beard in the books LotR (RotK near end) and silmarillion
I will forever thank Peter Jackson for indoctrinating me into this wonderful world of LotR 😭😭 when I watch these videos, I can tell that a younger me wouldn’t have been interested because it just seemed “too complex”. But after watching the movies, I was intrigued and it was a very good gateway into the world of lotr, getting to see some similarities and making connections I had already seen. Life-changing 😮💨
I think there's a lot to be said about the early Maiar of Aule becoming evil. Perhaps Tolkien is saying something about how those who are concerned with crafting and technology being easily seduced by the desire to rule and the opinion of themselves as being natural leaders who "should be in charge," because they have wisdom and skill and therefore arrogantly think that they should dominate. It took Saruman longer to come to this conclusion, obviously Sauron shifted much earlier. Even Aule himself was a bit of a rogue actor with the creation of the Dwarves. But other than this quasi act of hubris he never went along with anything Morgoth was doing.
When did Saruman become evil? From the moment he became secretly envious of Gandalf in Aman. Pride awoke and so began a slow, depressing descent into evil.
Nailed it.
not before?
@@danieljohnmorrisNo, as he had not taken his first step with the deadly sins before then
He started to vote for Trump.
@@torvilasulvstle362That would have been a turn away from the dark side. Silly noob, stick to GOT. Tolkien is over your head.
Honestly, as soon as Saruman picked a name that sounded almost like Sauron, Manwe shouldve been like "maaaaaybe we should pick someone else to go."
@@deusexaethera 🤣🤣
That was only the name given to him by Men I think
@wspencerwatkins within the video, that was even said. That is, the name was picked by Men.
He didn't pick the name. At least, according to what is said within the video.
😂
I'm just delighted that Tolkien created a character for Christopher Lee to own! That was very nice of him.
Yes he was perfectly cast same as gandalf perfect
IIRC Lee originally wanted to be Gandalf. We are indeed fortunate that he was cast as Saruman. He was superb in that role.
@@zorenadeckard I can't imagine Christopher Lee being the life of a hobbit birthday party. He would have made a strange Gandalf...but he was almost perfect as Saruman.
They knew each other.
@@Darkwintre I was kidding obviously but if they did that's really cool. Imagine them discussing him playing the character at the time. That would be amazing.
“Tell me, friend. When did Saruman, the Wise abandoned reason for madness?!”
I gave you the chance of aiding me willingly, but you elected the way of pain!
Wizard fight!
@michaeljones9553 I Love the Way that Line comes through in the movie...
GAAAAH!!!
It began when he began watching Ben Shapiro. Then, the enemy created The Acolyte, which pushed him over the edge and beyond redemption.
He was always proud and was jealous of Gandalf, even when he was righteous. Saruman's lust for power and his usage of the Palantir made him vulnerable to Sauron, who coaxed Saruman into embracing the darker aspects of his nature which were already present back when he was on the good side.
What’s wild is that Saruman never served Sauron nor bent to him at all in the books. The Gandalf locked in the Tower bit is explained ONLY in the Unfinished Tales Book: In [manuscript-C) The Black Riders arrived at the Gate of Isengard while Gandalf was still a prisoner in the tower. In this account, Saruman, in fear & despair, & perceiving the full horror of service to Mordor, resolved suddenly to yield to Gandalf, & to beg for his pardon & help. Temporizing at the Gate, he admitted that he had Gandalf within, & said that he would go & try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them. Then Saruman hastened to the summit of Orthanc - & found Gandalf gone. Away south against the setting moon he saw a great Eagle flying towards Edoras.
See, the thing is he was always master of studying the enemy & even being able to think like they do to always know exactly the best ways to handle ever situation and so on, but the thing is he didn't just become the enemy, he at this time in a sense for once actually grew afraid of him, probably Sauron did what Sauron did with Finrod Felagund in the duel of visions, (Galadriel’s elder brother who by the way was the most important in the Legendarium & is the main reason the third age even exists) which basically widdled Saruman with various visions of the past and future until it wore him down, but Saruman(Curumo) was the mostly already becoming weary due to what was called The Long Defeat, magic bleeding out from the lands of middle earth and subsequently certain things become less and less possible and the elves begin to go west.
Even the ones who never wished to leave middle earth and many of which were born here by the thousands.
So him also being a student and helper of Aulë of the Valar he was going to fight fire with fire and make a bid for the ring just so Sauron could never regain full power and if Saruman found a way to release himself from his power restrictions even by any small margin or worked with Eru in some way it might have worked out in the end if things went differently enough to where such action from him would be needed.
Ontop of that he was growing ever jealous of Gandalf for he received the Varya from Círdan and prior to that was chosen by the other Valar, Nienna’s chosen champion to go to middle earth. But Gandalf(Olórin back then) refused over and over and exclaimed his fear of Sauron(Mairon), varya I feel would have kindle the heart of Saruman to stay strong as he had been fighting the evils of the world for a very long time since he had been sent to Middle Earth.
And for the is reason Saruman wished to hold the ring at hostage. Keep Sauron from taking back his full strength and basically use it to stave off The Long Defeat.
Saruman is very complex. The Hobbit movies actually shows how he was even 60 years ago during Bilbo’s story. He was one of the main forces thwarting Sauron for over 2000 years. The Númenoreans: the high men of the west; gifted Saruman with Orthanc which was of their making. Now known as Isengard.
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saruman is actually trying to doublecross sauron. He wants the ring for himself. He thinks he can control it. The little orcs around saruman are from mordor - sauron's orcs sent to help saruman but also to spy on him. The big fighting orcs - the uruk hai - are loyal only to saruman.
Orcs are like that. But its why saruman's orders are a bit vague - to avoid sauron's orcs knowing what saruman is doing. The movies dont make this bit of the story very clear. But notice that, while saruman knows where the fellowship is he never lets Sauron Know.
It is hard to keep track of all the characters involvement, because they are so plenty and rich. The true masterpiece and the depth of J.R.R.. Tolkien writing. What a legend!
You're not wrong. I have to keep a notebook just to keep up, lol
It's a very deep book. Some of the characters have so many names it does get confusing. I read it as a youngster in school after reading The Hobbit in English lessons.
Enjoyed both books very much, but enjoyed LOTR even more when I read it again a few years later. A second read meant picking up things much easier.
It's a more 'grown up' book than The Hobbit, but this was purposely done to link it to The Silmarillion which Tolkien had a hard time getting published (it's even more 'grown up' than LOTR!).
I remember being disappointed with Silmarillion, at first, but it grew on me and, along with Unfinished Tales, would recommend it to fans of all things 'Middle Earth'.
What I find most intriguing in all of this is that Gandalf refused both of the honors that Saruman envied him for. He would not come to Middle Earth unless ordered; he declined heading the White Council after Galadriel nominated him. He also was given Narya by Cirdan without ever asking for or seeking to receive it. And yet Saruman was envious of _him_ - not the people who trusted and respected him. Gandalf would be the first to admit that Saruman surpassed him in knowledge, wisdom, leadership; and yet Saruman still resented him. Saruman was worse than evil; he was petty, from very early on.
Thanks for putting this out.
It helps novice like me get a grasp of things.
This is, unfortunately, common in life. Many people will commit acts of treachery and horror out of pain and loss over something that you don't even know is occurring, and don't even want to happen to you 😅
Its the good old tale that the best fit to rule/to lead/to be honoured etc aee the ones who do not wish it
Reminds me of a certain moronic orange turd!!! America needs to find its Gandalf!!
This legendarium is complicated, it only gets "Arder"
HA!!!!
Ugh
@michaeljones9553 I see what you did there!
nice
"Beyond the linguistic talents of Tolkien...
In the depths of the UA-cam Comments...
Atop an ever growing mountain of replies...
Lies michaeljones9553, corrupting the Great Works with his vile Mortal Tongue."
I love what Gandalf says to Saruman when discovering his treachery. There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will, and he does not share power." Gandalf never struggled with Saruman's lust for power, he did not see himself as an equal to Sauron... All the accolades and titles as well as being the "greatest" wizard sent, Saruman saw himself as a worthy opponent... Sure if he attained the Ring he might depose Sauron, but he would only have become him, a weaker, paler imitation... To be honest though, I don't think if he came close to obtaining it that he could withstand the Nazgul... Gandalf had a special propensity for light and fire that we don't see Saruman wield, and this is speculation, but I would imagine that Gandalf's pure heart is part of the reason he prevailed when facing evil.
When Tolkein began writing his Epic, he wanted it to become the Epic of the English peoples. And so humility, courage and duty were the virtues he wanted to show. Gandalf was all three - humble, courageous and dutiful.
These are aspirational values for the Brits, and have been corrupted, Saruman-like, in former British territories such as the United States, where courage and duty are lauded, but not humility.
@@Sagan_Starborn Humility needed to be displaced by audacity in order to free our people from tyranny. The western world would no longer exist without us. Thank your lucky stars we protect your sorry asses.
Unlike the movies, the books actually confirm that those who are as powerful as Sauron can indeed bend the ring to their will. However, the results of wielding the ring would yield the same corrupting tendencies of destruction and evil from that individual as it would had Sauron taken it back in the first place.
@@Jake-fw5te well, that would be the Lords of the West, since powerful Noldor such as Galadriel would try to fight him with armies - not truly master the Ring.
Tolkien considered only Gandalf to be able to maybe master the Ring. And that would be a very close call, since Sauron would be exhausted by dominating the minds and wills of his servant armies and by not being in possesion of the Ring.
So in all the Peter Jackson movies did a splendid job.
@@Jake-fw5te I always got the impression that the Wise (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Co.) were wary of the Ring's power and influence precisely because they were wise enough to see past the promise of power and glory the magic of the Ring promised. They knew that if they were to take up the Ring and "bend" it to their will, they would be locking themselves in a permanent struggle for dominance with Sauron... Not only did no one possess the will/strength to content with him forever, if they succeeded long enough, they would be corrupted by Sauron's influence and become something twisted and evil beyond recognition. All this said, Saruman, coming from the same clade of maiar as Sauron, would have a greater propensity to see living beings as a moldable and craftable material to achieve his designs and machinations. It would not have been long till he became Sauron 2.0. I would consider this irrelevant though, because I don't think that he ever had a hope of defeating Sauron with his own instrument, I think that similarly to anyone else, Sauron's mastery over the Ring would have resulted in it corrupting the bearer, and then betraying him/her (as it had countless others) and this is why Saruman spent countless centuries studying ringcraft and the magic that was used. Even after he succumbed to the temptation of power, he still needed to convince himself that he could actually wrestle power from Sauron by his own methods. That said, I think the implication behind ANY of them attempting to do so was: if they were to claim it for themselves, they may start off using it for good, maybe even defeat Sauron, but their corruption and his ultimate victory would be inevitable. Sauron's influence was bound to the Ring, and in taking it as their own they would be essentially making a great portion of his evil a part of themselves, and in doing so preserve his spirit to grow in power itself... anything but the Ring's destruction only represents a hiccup in his eventual dominion of Middle Earth.
Always liked the fact that even though Tolkien laid the foundations of his fall within the character of Saruman, he made it clear that the first white wizard was for a long time a true ally of the light, and did for a time seek to learn of Sauron's craft to undo him. After all, they were both students of Aule and he likely thought that could be used to undo the Dark Lord. Saruman was not compelled but made choices that damned him by degrees over time. As a reader I always wonder what would have become of the story if someone could have seen the path he was on sooner and gotten through to him, but that fall is the point of his character since Tolkien saw good men go bad in war.
I have only just discovered your channel and have watched but a few of your wonderful videos thus far. Despite my limited experience with your content, I am already enamoured of this channel's offerings; the information imparted, the style in which it is conveyed to the student of Tolkien's work, and the richness of the narrator's voice, all combine, in harmony, to create a thoroughly enjoyable experience. Here, therefore, is a small token of my appreciation---would that I could but spare more coppers!
Thanks for the generous support and the brilliant comment! I'm so glad you're enjoying the videos 😀
Nicely done, good selection of art, great presentaton voice! And you content, noting the sources of quotes has a legitimacy that many channels that don't provide their sources can't emulate. Thank you!
13:51 The first EyePhone
I wasn't expecting the answer would come from way back in the beginning of time.
I believe his first step to falling was when he gave up hope that Men and Elves could defeat Sauron and instead believed that he would need to do so himself. Instead of strengthening them, he sought to strengthen himself. At that point, he had already lost the purpose of his mission.
That sort of makes sense...somehow
It's the "Wise Sage sending a Child to defeat the Dark Lord", which apparently, sounds plain stupid at best for Saruman
Very happy to have found this channel. Sometimes the recommendations actually work as intended it seems! :D
Outstanding also is the artwork-the best that I have seen to date.
Well done to the artists and to you who so aptly chose them.
What excellent artwork throughout. To me it sounds like Saruman was wicked from the start, it just needed a trigger to bring it out.
This has quickly become my favourite lotr-Lore channel...these deeply analytic videos are just dope.
I've watched Peter Jackson's movies a 50 plus times. All the long times and such. Still haven't felt disappointed. The books are exciting am sure. But it's Viggo and Orlando and Cate who sealed the deal for me. Acting is just ❤❤❤
The books are far, far beyond the films. There is no way to even compare the depth and breadth in comparison. Peter Jackson did a phenomenal job, but there is no way to capture the feel of the books in a movie. Not fully. I assume you haven't read it, based on your comment. You are doing yourself a huge dis-service.
I LOVE ALL things Tolkien, the real Tolkien, fantastic video and I love your channel it’s added as one of my favorites thank you and keep up the good work brother!!
Putting the excellent content and research about the lore itself aside for a second, you are a fantastic narrator who does justice to the scripts you write.
Can listen to you all day.
Bravo sir.
I have been waiting for a new video since last month.
I've had some issues regarding narration but I'm back on track now with plenty of scripts ready to go! Thanks for the comment 🙂
The life story of Saruman it's the story of any person temptaited by any means of passion through the pride... it's so sad that so so strong and powerful istari fall...
Thank you for sharing another great video.
Yet another noble heart laid low by the temptation of the shadow…
A great amount of detail. Love it; I'll have to watch it again.
Is this a CG voice? If it is then it's by FAR the best narrating voice out there! Great storyteling, writting and video presentation as always!
He turned evil when he found out rings of power made a second season.
Dont you mean season 1?
@@Amermito I stand corrected
Rings of power is dope.
@@argonian8581 You're the problem. You're the infection that the story line stomps out!
@@argonian8581 So you were part of the 37% who made it all the way thru the show? 37% is bad for a show with what 8 episodes?
Love the vid . Fantastic job.
I hope you don't mind I had to watch three times to catch all the details.... I was distracted.... but; this is also very detailed and I truly enjoyed this video and its information!
Yes should have paid closer attention in the 1st watch as you are very concise but also WORTH watching 3 times anyway!
I appreciate the more formal story telling!!! Makes things easy to understand and leave room for my own thought 😂
Much appreciated! Great work.
See, I always thought it was fear of Sauron and self preservation that drove him down this path. Like one man said "Better to be the right hand of the devil, then in his path." Loved the video BTW.❤
This is really well done. This could be a BBC documentary. Great voice for narrating too.
Excellent. Instantly subscribed.
Excellent pronunciation of names and places (unlike other uploaders who cannot correctly pronounce "Eriador"!)
Excellent insight and thorough research.
Your own diction is beautiful too, bridging sequences of narrative between Tolkien's own, which are of an exemplary standard of English, so I salute you highly.
Sláinte from Ireland.
The artwork in this video is exceptional.
Excellent ! Thank you
This narrator is fantastic👍🏻
Christopher Lee’s Saruman is my favourite character in LOTR films
The jewel always had a flaw within it. It merely flexed and crept further open with every stress it met.
Saruman's secretly one of the richest characters in the whole series
I’ve wondered what Frodo would say to Gandalf about Saruman’s death in the Shire.
Wow. Brilliant video. So well made and relaxing. Subbed!
Tolkien also wrote (in UT) that Saruman also found (and burned) Isildur's remains, which makes him an even bigger rat bastard.
I love how informative these videos are when it comes to Tolkien's lore. Thank you very much, Realms! Speaking of him, could you perhaps do a video one day about the grape-eating Denethor? My dad read the books many a time and explained why he was so hostile with Faramir, but I would love to hear your take on it!
This is phenomenal art!!! Subbed to your channel. Keep it up!
Aule trained both Saruman and Sauron and created a race that destroyed and hated the creations of his wife. He is like, the third worst guy in the whole Legendarium.
Dwarves did not hate trees. Orcs hate. Dwarves just have need for trees and animals as any other children of Eru.
Aule is not a bad guy here. After all, he created all elements of of the universe from which Arda and maybe even Eä itself is made of. And he is not evil.
It would be unfair to blame Aule. Both Mairon and Curumo had their free will and turned evil out of their own volition.
@@matiasluukkanen7718 Maybe hate is an strong word but is fear? Did Gimli fear Fanghorn? Undoubtedly.
Dwarves do have need for trees but my point is that they ARE NOT children of Eru. Aule just created them because he is kind of a dick. And sure, if one of your Maiar goes bad, maybe that is just bad luck, but two? Bad mentorship.
So, is he evil? No, you are right; he absolutely is not. Yet, He is a terrible husband, an absentee teacher, and an amoral prick. I don't like him! But third worst WAS overkill, i grant you. All the best!
I have my own opinion on this, so just my two cents here, probably will be long, sorry! Also hoping this doesn’t sound like an Argument, simply interested in this conversation haha
Well. I disagree. They are now children of Eru. Although adopted, still claimed by Eru. And he created them because he loved creation. And wished to share it. Aule himself says this.
"I desired things other than I am, to love and to teach them, so that they too might perceive the beauty of Eä, which thou hast caused to be. For it seemed to me that there is great room in Arda for many things that might rejoice in it, yet it is for the most part empty still, and dumb. And in my impatience I have fallen into folly. Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father."
He’s a smith. He loves to create as his father created. So in his impatience of the coming of the children of Eru, he created his own. I wouldn’t say he’s a “Dick” for that.
And if we do say he is such. What would that mean for Eru then? One of his children is undoubtedly the worst one of them all. You should t blame the Teacher for the foolishness of the Student. I feel the reason for His students (Sauron and Saruman and Some Noldor, notably Faenor) Failure and turning to Evil was that they were too ambitious, that’s just what creative work tries or you, however unlike his Students, Aule remained humble before Eru and his Authority. While Aule, in his own way, Did rebel. He did seek forgiveness unlike the others and most importantly, Melkor. And if we say Aule is bad because his “Students” turned to evil. What about the others? Multitudes of Maia followed Melkor afterwards. So who’s to say who these Maia, Such as gothmog and Durins bane followed before they turned to Morgoth.
@@loremasterghosty Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I can see where you are coming from but allow me to fine tune my distaste for Aule.
When I call him a dick, I don't mean he is evil; he never became corrupted. Rather, as the embodiment of technological progress, He can't help but be a dick. That is what Eru intended.
Tolkien, I think, makes his views on unfettered progress at the expense of the natural world plain. Sauron, Faenor, Saruman, Durin VI (arguably), and others all fell to ruin because they sought to dominate, possess, or exploit natural aspects of Arda. While Aule probably abhorred their actions, they all fall under His purpose.
Progress in of itself isn't inherently good or bad but I think Tolkien viewed it as the easiest, and maybe inevitable path, to evil. His heroes distain any machine beyond a water wheel.
I THINK we are supposed to be in the 7th Age now and technology is running amuck. I think Aule, the dick, is nodding his head and saying something like: yes but Humans will still need wood and lithium and coal.
Anyways, thanks again!
You know, some people believe Tom Bombadil is Aule, and it would be an interesting twist if he sort of exiled himself to Middle Earth out of a sense of responsibility for all of the problems of Sauron, Saruman and the Noldor.
These get a like before I’m 10 seconds in.
Haha love this! Your support is much appreciated 🙏
Aulë and his Maiar are divine beings who embrace materialist philosophy. Since Melkor's will permeates all kinds of materials related to Arda, such divine beings associated with this material are susceptible to being influenced by his will. For this existential reason, they tend to impose on other beings with free will what they think and believe is good for them. They feel the need and desire to have the power to achieve this. It is inevitable that they will corrupt and evolve into evil (mainly the will of Melkor) within the power they have and have acquired.
Domination is not order when it obstruct it, free will is the order as they're free to pursue it.
I really enjoyed this. TY.
Jealousy and pride. I have always been interested in the duality of pride. On one hand pride is one of the seven deadly sins, but on the other hand, we are always told to take pride in our work and do a good job. I think that the sin of pride is the focus on self.
My favorite explanation of not being prideful is to imagine you led an important achievement that would help many people (say a cure for cancer). Lacking the sin of pride would be if you were happy that the ultimate outcome and just as happy whether it was your own work that accomplished it or the work of others- as long as the best outcome was achieved.
That excerpt about Isengard vs Barad Dur is so good 😅
Great content. Love your channel!
"Why does [random LotR question] happen?"
"Well, you see, we have to start with the creation of the world. In the beginning was Eru..."
This video has been created as perfectly as Lord Celebrimbor crafted the Rings of Power. 🙌
Pride. It came down to hubris in the end, and the simple slight against exactly that. The movies might have needed to speed the process up, it was an inevitability from the beginning.
Thank you for sharing 🙏
This voice sounds far too like Robert's from In Deep Geek channel who also covers lotr. So much so I thought I'd clicked on the wrong channel. Bring back the old erudite voice, please. It's perfect for narration.
I hear it, but this guys voice is much deeper and older, I don’t think I’d ever mistake it for Robert lol
It's wild that Sarumon came over with raven black hair, meaning he aged into white.
Meanwhile Gandalf came already clad as an older looking man, to be less imposing when meeting with him and his advice be more appreciated for just the look of so many years
This is better then the rings of power
Most are
Would be a rare find to be something actually worse than the *Rings of Power*
Totally disagree
I got stabbed once. It was better than the rings of power.
@@logangodofcandy why is that? You weren't stabbed in the head by any chance? All joking aside, I am sorry and shocked that you were stabbed, but I love rings of p, and for many reasons. Please give specific reasons why you found it so bad? Personally, I'd rather poke out my own eyes than endure the hobbit movies ever again, but there you go.
I would like to offer a theory on Saruman. It is stated in Tolkien's works that Yavanna begged he that would become Saruman to take one who served her (known later as Radagast.) Saruman was dismissive of Radagast and grudgingly agreed. Saruman headed East whence the two Blue Wizards had gone. What took place in the East we will never known. But, Saruman, like Sauron, had a like for order. His research into Sauron's works led to jealousy, this and other events caused Saruman to look only to his own gain!
Why didn’t Saruman take gandalfs ring when he imprisoned him
If I remember rightly it because he was so arrogant and prideful that he saw it as admitting that gandalf had something he wanted from him and he himself wanted to be mighty "ring maker" and had no need of elven trinkets.
He also still believed that he could turn gandalf and wanted him fully onside.
The elven rings had the ability to become invisible if their wearer wanted to hide it.
Good Tolkein lore is hard to beat
In summary:
He is envious of Gandalf and Sauron, and desired for a ring of power to the point he became a dark lord wannabe.
The books says when he found the palantril. Looked into it and tried to force it away from Sauron & got trapped instead like how wormtongue did with his lord.
splendid narration as always.
curious: could you also pls share the track names used in your videos?
Here comes your 100k sub! 👍
Thanks
Thanks for supporting the channel! ☺️
Love these videos , thankyou
Gandalf should had owned Isengard. It could be a sanctuary for the Ents a safe fortress for both the wizard and the ent and they could help to dig up some iron to make weapons and armour for the good so they can build up strong numbers against the dark lord. And having ents carrying the materials would make it a lot easier. Also imagine the peace came back and the entwives could be reborn and ents can once more rise up again. Protecting the Fangorn and with Gandalf wise power helps ents to restore Fangorn so new trees may grow and Isengard can once again become beautiful as it was before.
Wizards
Tramps
&
Thieves...
Saruman becomes all three❤
Great video!
Well explained.
Like many, I have read the books more than once.
It never occurred to me that Saruman created his own evil.
Sauron became evil because it grew in his heart.
But Saruman could only create a copy of Sauron's evil because he was doing it in his weakened wizard form.
They had the same teacher, so their relative knowledge and strength must have been comparable (not necessarily equal.
Saruman's evil seems more innovative though, as he created the Uruk-Hai, a vastly superior creature to the orc, descended from tortured and twisted elves.
I will find the truth! that's what you said, i will keep you to it!
This content is brilliant
It revealed a deeper narrative...
Doesn't it always
What prompt did you use
In the morning, O Lord, You hear my voice; in the morning I lay my requests before You and wait expectantly. You are my help and my shield; in You my heart rejoices. Psalm 138:3
Saruman seems to be the embodiment of the saying, 'Beware those who cloak themselves in good deeds'. He would have made a good politician.
From the start he had extreme envy and jealousy of Gandalf who was very unassuming, didn't class himself as powerful and had to be ordered to go to Middle Earth. This must have annoyed Saruman immensely.
The fact that Gandalf was seemingly more trusted and given tasks by the white council doubtless infuriated Saruman.
My husband has read the LOTR books back when he was 15, he is now 57. He also tried the Silmarillion but could not get into it. This is where the band Marillion got its name from.
This very well done clip in terms of artwork, information and very good voice over, explains that Saruman, in effect, was a Sauron fanboy who wanted to be just as bad as him. The fact that he bred his own Orcs and how he did it is disgusting. Due to his massive ego and lust for power, you could see, thanks to this clip, the inevitable slow slide into black evil well before he was conversing with Sauron via the stones.
Again, a very well done clip in terms of pulling information together from multiple sources and bringing it together to form a well explain timeline.
We don't need the Orange wizard...
Tell me, "friend"
When did sauruman the wise abandon reason for madness?
The desire for power to asert control over others.
It's kind of the whole theme of all the books.
Life is choas to bring order you have to eliminate free will.
👌Köszönjük!
Hence the very reason for reading the book, yeah, that thing that no one does any more
I still think it’s a shame they didn’t show “Saruman of many colors “ in the movie . I was looking forward to see how they were going to do it , then they just knocked out of the story .
I wonder if he fought in the War of Wrath against Morgoth. If this is the case then his betrayal later gets even more insane.
very well explained!
I prefer the other voice, more fantasy story narrator like. But this is good nonetheless.
This is the voice from one of the other pages
What do you mean
Sounds like a voice of wisdom to me
If anything this voice is MORE fantasy narrator like, older, more mature, more powerful, more ethereal sounding
Where are you getting these amazing art pieces from?
Artificial intelligence
Why and how would Saruman recruit Orcs from the North of the Misty Mountains? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to have recruited them from the Southern part of the mountains?
A bearded elf? SACRILEGE!!!
It's canon I promise!
@@RealmsUnravelled Don`t promise, prove...
@@danhubert-hx4sscan't tell if you kidding or not, cirdan is the only one known n said to have a beard in the books LotR (RotK near end) and silmarillion
@@bennruda11 You get three guesses...
I will forever thank Peter Jackson for indoctrinating me into this wonderful world of LotR 😭😭 when I watch these videos, I can tell that a younger me wouldn’t have been interested because it just seemed “too complex”. But after watching the movies, I was intrigued and it was a very good gateway into the world of lotr, getting to see some similarities and making connections I had already seen. Life-changing 😮💨
I understand Saruman. If I joined an mmorpg with a friend and he got mythical loot right off the bat, I would rage pretty hard
What is the soundtrack at 10:00 in the clip?
Saruman...Sauron.... the names sound so much alike that i often get them mixed up
I think there's a lot to be said about the early Maiar of Aule becoming evil. Perhaps Tolkien is saying something about how those who are concerned with crafting and technology being easily seduced by the desire to rule and the opinion of themselves as being natural leaders who "should be in charge," because they have wisdom and skill and therefore arrogantly think that they should dominate. It took Saruman longer to come to this conclusion, obviously Sauron shifted much earlier. Even Aule himself was a bit of a rogue actor with the creation of the Dwarves. But other than this quasi act of hubris he never went along with anything Morgoth was doing.
Perhaps those Outside Orcs toyed with his bride, bullied his bride, and finally replaced his bride... I think he said "F..K this" ... LOL
Just found this channel and I’m in LOVE.
Sauruman became disillusioned with the Council believing it to be corrupt. He went to the dark side moments before the death of his padawan.