It so clear what happened do Dark Lands.. Ungoliant fled there, infested the island with giant spiders and thousands of years later, those lands became known as Australia.
If ever there were a human whom we needed to live forever, or at least 120-130 years, it would have been Tolkien. Imagine the additional stories and details of Middle Earth he would’ve brought to life for us.
I seriously doubt Tolkien would've wanted that for himself. The industrial revolution already kind of bummed him out about a lot of things, I don't even wanna know what the current digital one would make him think.
@iseeundeadpeople9 yup. When he was creating Elvish, he learned early on that he needed a living world to create the language. He then thought up of Middle Earth as an exercise to create his language.
@@YadraVoat Cane Toads would be invasive regardless. They were introduced to Australia by idiots who thought that because they were called _Cane_ Toads, they'd eat the Cane Beetles that were a pest to sugarcane plantations. Except they didn't, they ate everything else, and they multiplied like rabbits in an environment that, despite its reputation, didn't have an answer to them.
You’re so good at making videos about things that have not really been talked about in the UA-cam sphere. You keep coming with gems. Lord of the Rings is never ending content lol
I am a big geography fan in general and tolkien's world is no exception, I always think about what is there or what is here, who lives there, what lives there, and it is unfortunate that we know less and less about the world once you reach a certain point. of course the fan maps are not canon but I still think they are good maps, mostly because the lands beyond what we usually see are pretty open and a blank slate for people to come up with ideas on how to use the land in order to make fan maps or even things like game maps for the world where they create new stuff in the previously unused lands. sure, we know things like the avari and four dwarven clans living in the east, but we don't actually know their fate or if they are still around, especially the avari. with the dwarves we did get the war of the dwarves and orcs and they still say the seven dwarven clans, so they seem to still be around, but the avari could have been killed by the easterlings because elves often live in the woods and sauron/easterlings probably wanted to destroy the forest and all the elves in it anyways because they are the bad guys who tear down forests to fuel their industry. as for the south, we know there were other black numenorean colonies along the coast to the further south, but aside from the mumakil elephants that the haradrim use and that we know there is a deep jungle far south, we know very little about the place. and not to mention, the other continents of the world that may or may not exist, we know even less. were there prosperous civilizations of men in these places, or were they more primitive and nomadic? were there even men at all? if not, then what was there? etc. ugh, there are just so many questions to ask, and I will basically get no definite answers for it, but the point is, the world tolkien has created is far more grand than we give it credit for, and that is only the stuff we know a lot of, yet alone everything else. also, the fact that we simply call the eastern people "easterlings" and with the exception of certain groups like the wainriders and balchoth, we don't know the possibly many different groups of easterlings. same pretty much goes for the haradrim.
I think the explanation (or at least the excuse) for the lack of knowledge available on the rest of the world is because the writing is supposed to be a translation of books written by in-universe characters, and so naturally just like in our own history, they would know very little of places distant from them (other than small snippets of hearsay) until much later in time (i.e. our own Age of Exploration and the Early Modern Era). Look at really old maps of our world, and writings like those of Herodotus for a comparative example.
I am very much the same. I always wonder "What kind of people live in the east and south? Are there large realms and big cities? Or is it all a tribal society?" Tolkien does not gives us answers...so we have to make our own.
We don't really know how far Sauron's influence reached in the east, but I imagine that Rhûn and Khand might be kingdoms comparable to Rohan and Gondor, that exist as client states to Mordor, together with the Haradrim, Corsairs and Black Numenorians. Although nine rings were given to kings of men. So I guess there once was nine kingdoms, and the nazgûl were once their kings turned into wraiths. Maybe their kingdoms withered, same as them, or were absorbed into Mordor, continued as Rhûn and Khand and other, unnamed kingdoms. Beyond that, I'd assume there would be nothing strong enough to challenge Sauron's dominion, only people too remote to be of priority. Maybe there's dwarven strongholds too strong to easily conquer, but not strong enough to threaten Sauron, maybe they're allies, or offer favorable trade so Sauron won't attack. Maybe there's some distant independent kingdoms, or tribal societies that could conceivably trade with Mordor and it's clients, not under Sauron's rule, but close enough for him to have some measure of influence. Surely there must be some who fish and trade along the eastern coast. There could also be all kinds of monstrous beasts. Probably a lot of orcs of various kinds.
@@MerkhVisionyes Tolkien did describe himself in universe as someone who uncovered and translated ancient texts about the first 3 ages of the world, and since those texts were likely altered over the course of the 4 ages since the 3rd age, and they are likely biased like any history books
My fan theory - the dark land is the domain of Shelob-like giant spiders descended from Ungoliant, and is possibly ruled by Ungoliant herself (assuming she didn't really eat herself) Sauron stays the hell away from the place because it scares even him!
I'm fascinated by worldbuilding and sub-creation within Tolkien's world, and the videos on this channel really fuel that fire in me! Especially the ones about lesser know things and obscure references. Good work, love it!
So few mentions of Dor-Winiön, the human kingdom that bordered the sea of Rhûn, their wine was supposedly the most potent, the stuff they were drinking in The Hobbit were barrels floated down the anduin and returned to the kingdom.
I always took the maps to be “in-world,” meaning cartographers actually mapped these out, with the further areas using a lot of guesswork and hear say, much like real world historical maps.
There is a few things not mentioned in this video that we can say about these lands in the Third Age from most certain to least certain: 1. There are nomadic tribes directly to the east of the Sea of Rhun. 2. There's the wild white Kine of Araw, a type of Oxen that likely lives directly east of the Sea of Rhun. 3. At the start of the Third Age, Eru enclosed Arda with a sea and substituted Valinor with new lands (a proto-North and South America?). 4. The Blue Wizards entered these lands in the Second Age. It is unknown if they survived to the end of the Third Age. 5. Morgoth Worship was practiced in some parts of these lands. There might have been some adapted version of this promoted by Sauron as well. 6. There are additional unknown kingdoms of men to the south and east. Some of these people appeared at the battle of the Pelinor as vassals of Sauron like the short axe-wielding men and the dark-skinned men believed to be from 'South Harad.' Great roads lead east from Mordor. It can be speculated that his vassal territories are vast, stretching far to the east and south. 7. Aragorn and Saruman visited these lands to the east. Gandalf, Aragorn, and to some minor extent Smeagol visited the lands to the south. It is likely that Denathor also knew much of these lands and sent emissaries abroad. 8. There are stone cities of men to the south. 9. There is one or more sources of Mithril in the east. It is likely these are Dwarven sources. By the end of the Third Age, these sources appear to have either dried up and are no longer actively mined or traded abroad. This lines up with the accounts of the issues faced by the eastern dwarves. 10. There are one or more domains of Black Numenoreans to the south. These are Numenorian settlements established before the end of the Second Age. Some of these kingdoms are likely overrun or have otherwise blended with non-Numenorean men by the end of the Third Age. One or more of the Nazgul are likely from these kingdoms. 11. There are four tribes of Dwarves in the east. How many strongholds these dwarves operated is unknown. All we know is that by the end of the Third Age, the dwarves were under pressure from conflicts, with some fleeing west. 12. There are forests in the deep south of Harad, possibly inhabited by Ape-men (gorillas?). 13. Sauron had additional domains or fortresses he directly ruled in the east. This is mentioned in an offhand passage by Tolkien. What these bases of Sauron's power looked like, when he ruled these lands, and what the nature of this rule looked like is unknown. It's likely these were primarily mannish realms that Sauron used as a base of power before returning to Dol Guldor to search for the Ring. 14. The Avari elves are a branch of elves that inhabited the East. Their numbers and strongholds are unknown. 15. Somewhere in the east is likely the remains of Utmno. Tolkien mentions that the deepest pits of Utmno survived the assault by the Valor. These are likely buried deep underground or perhaps beneath some body of water. There may be something like the equivalent of the underdeeps of Moria out there where nameless things or other creatures of Morgoth exist. 16. Sauron probably used local Mannish servants plus some level of magical control to ensnare the minds of Eastern rulers. Saruman copied Sauron in all things, and Grema Wormtongue's control of Theoden was likely an imitation of what Sauron was doing with nearby mannish realms. I have a feeling that combating this control was one of the chief roles of the Blue Wizards during the Second Age. 17. The lands to the east and south roughly mirror Earth by the end of the Third Age. We see this in geography (Eurasian steppe in Rhun), human ethnography (Southrons), and naming (Khan = Turkish). Bilbo's "Last Desert" is probably a cryptic reference to a proto-Gobi Desert.
the 4th age should've been Middle Earth vs the East/South and Darklands. After the War of the Ring, Middle Earth settles down but the places we don't see have been completely taken over by someone like Sauron and launches an all out war. Maybe they pursued industry more and had (relatively) advanced technology compared to the men of Middle Earth. Might not be a very interesting book but it would make for some cool lore to make a 4th age from. It could never happen though because we'd need Tolkien back to create more languages.
@@KamikazeCommie501 Tolkien started a story like this as a sequel this but quickly realised that to remain true to the overarching narrative of decline, it would be more like Dune in tone. I personally don't mind that at all, but it wasn't something Tolkien particularly felt compelled to write. Another alternative story might be the War of the Ring, but set from the perspective of a long-lost book compiled in the east of Middle Earth.
@@emerald10005 Utmno was not completely destroyed as stated in The Silmarillion III Quenta Silmarillion Chapter 3: "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor" As for Mithril, it was briefly mentioned in a fan letter that I can't find the source at the moment.
@@KamikazeCommie501 There was no being left to fill the role of a Sauron-class Dark Lord after Sauron's defeat. That's one of the reasons Tolkien abandoned his 4th Age story; the villains would have had to have been much more mundane.
One of the best videos from such a firm skeptic as Darth Gandalf! 7:00 I just want to point out, that while Wild Wood is an extremely cool name, I remember reading somewhere that it might not be an actual wood, rather the description of general woodlands in early Middle-earth.
Not sure if you’ve come across this but there’s an amazing fanfiction known as the Lost Tales of Harad that explores and world builds in Harad in a Tolkienesque way. They’ve created an interesting map of Harad as well.
@@lordcristobal I can't post links as UA-cam auto labels it as spam but they're on Instagram. They're on Facebook too but it looks like they don't update their Facebook page.
same i bought Atlas of Middle Earth and spend more time looking at the maps trying to figure out where everything is rather than reading the content (which i do as well)
Amazon could've so easily centred their new series on these completely unexplored worlds without pissing off the entire fandom with lazy shit that messes up all the canonical stuff every LOTR knows already about the main regions in the Second Age. Harad and Rhun and Khand are entirely unexplored and clearly hinting towards non-European equivalents of Africa, Russia and Central Asia. I mean the Numenorian colonisation of Harad's coastline would be a perfect way to also deal with the subject of diversified/modern casting. Harad and Rhun and Khand and also what we already know of the Easterlings are perfect ground for a more in-depth worldbuilding that can flesh them out past some orientalist stereotypes.
I think the explanation (or at least the excuse) for the lack of knowledge available on the rest of the world is because the writing is supposed to be a translation of books written by in-universe characters, and so naturally just like in our own history, they would know very little of places distant from them (other than small snippets of hearsay) until much later in time (i.e. our own Age of Exploration and the Early Modern Era). Look at really old maps of our world, and writings like those of Herodotus for a comparative example.
Great work DG. You would have to be very pleased with your direction moving forward. Always excited to see/hear your next works. Keep up the great effort! Cheers from down under Ronald & Stavvy
Since Tolkien insisted that Ardur is in fact Earth, The Dark Lands seem to be Africa, and their name simply refers to a trend during Tolkien's day of referring to Africa as 'The Dark Continent', partly inspired by Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness', partly inspired by Africa's vast and unexplored dense equitorial jungles, and partly in a very passé way to refer to the races of people who lived there. To me, on Tolkien's maps, The Dark Lands look like a scaled up Madagascar, blown up in size until its northeastern peninsula meets the Horn of Africa and the southern tip of Arabia. However, the shape is also reminscent of Lemuria, a theorised lost continent that served as a land bridge between the Indian subcontinent and East Africa, which was used as an explanation before the discovery of plate tectonics as to how species made it across the Indian Ocean. Remember, Tolkien was writing before the discovery of plate tectonics and accurate bathymetric mapping of the Indian Ocean floor, so the idea of whole continents sinking and becoming lost, like Lemuria, wasn't a crackpot theory but mainstream scientific concensus. If indeed Tolkien imagined Ardur to be Earth in an ancient age, then the common understanding of the day would posit Lemuria at that time was still above the waves having not yet sunk into the crust.
A lot of people miss the point, which you make, which is that Middle-Earth is actually supposed to be OUR world, our real Earth, albeit about 12,000 years ago, before massive geological changes, which is why it looks different now. In an interview with Tolkien, the interviewer placed Mordor at about the present day Balkans, and Tolkien agreed. Interestingly, this would put the end of the events of the novels at just before the real-world Younger Dryas event.
@@derekflynn9644Mordor map look exactly like Turkey tho, square mountain range, enter through north-east (Constantinople, straight of Bosporus) and the Ottoman Empire were once a great villain to European who banded together
Cool video with some recap on maps. I remember that in The Lord of the Rings it was said that the attack on Minas Tirith would be only the first attack of many and that there would come many more armies from distant lands. So I guess Tolkien thought of quite a large eastern part of middle earth.
At 10:40 It was said that when sailors reported back from these new lands they said “they could still die there”. Isn’t it the case that non elven races who travel to the undying lands still died to begin with? Tolkien describes it as a person rapidly aging and dying in peace when Frodo goes there to be healed and given rest for his part in the War of the Ring. It was just a point I was confused on.
I thought the non-elven people that went to the Undying Lands were Bilbo and Frodo. I'm not counting Gandalf. Everyone else that tried was not able to land. Ungoliant and Morgoth also being special cases since they're not really like other mortals either.
@@raymondlugo9960 In The Fall of Numenor the king of Numenor Arpharazon rallies the fleet and sails to Valinor to wage war with the Valar the only reason they didn’t make it there was because Eru sunk the fleet before they made landfall. This shows that it was once possible to sail there however, after the failed invasion attempt by Numenor that is when Non-Elven races where no longer allowed access. So Morgoth could still physically go there just like everyone else could back in the first age.
Dude this is something I did many times, looking up full maps of middle earth. Some I think are really good, others are... ...interesting in my opinion.
from Tolkein gateway Christopher Tolkien questioned whether or not the Sea of Rhûn could "...be identified with the Sea of Helkar, vastly shrunken". [4] In The Atlas of Middle-earth, Karen Wynn Fonstad assumed that Mordor, Khand, and parts of Rhûn in the Second and Third Ages lay where the Sea of Helcar had been in the First Age, and that the Sea of Rhûn and Sea of Núrnen were its remnants. However, in The Peoples of Middle-earth (which was published after Fontstad's Atlas), there are references to the Sea of Rhûn and its surrounding geographical landmarks existing as far back as the Years of the Trees at the time of the Great Journey,[5] and Melkor was said to have created Mount Doom in Mordor during the "long First Age".[6] Additionally, it is told in Unfinished Tales that the migration of the Drúedain from Hildórien brought them westward through lands south of Mordor.[7] In The Nature of Middle-earth, Cuiviénen (located on the eastern shores of the Sea of Helcar) is roughly at 200 miles from the Sea of Rhûn[8], or in a more detailed annalistic text on the March of the Quendi Cuiviénen is at around 450 miles eastward from the Sea of Rhûn
I've never really thought about it before but it must have been very sad for those Dunedain explorers to finally catch sight of land only to realise it is the eastern tip of Middle Earth.
Just imagine, if Tolkien lived 20 years longer and created a second Silmarillion, filling the next 3000 years after the Return of the King with a similar fine mixture of myth and history. The rise of the grand joined Kingdom of Gondor and Arnor, its wars with Harad and the Easterlings, expeditions to the farthest rims of the Middle-Earth, long-ruined Utumno, desolate and forgotten Angband, dragon skeletons of the size of a city, lost tribes descendant from the Numenorian colonies. Finding the lost Silmarils. And Dagor Dagorath.
There's surely a lot of material there. I think finding Utumno would make a magnificent chapter, or even a book if it was done right. Not hard to believe that a Balrog, or if not that, certainly some dragons or other of Morgoth's creations might still be hiding there.
1:22 I have a very irrational hatred of maps that imitate or look like this one. One thing I love about most Middle-earth maps is that the coastlines look nice. To then see those other maps like this actually used-or worse, even in replacement of the -in my opinion- objectively better maps in the case of the Realms in Exile mod for Crusader Kings III-immediately turns me away.
I am always willing to defend Fonstad's placement of the Sea of Helcar at the point where Morder would be later, even after History of Middle Earth. Simply because it is the place that fits best with all that Tolkien has written. If it didn't exist there, there would be hardly any places to put it. Personally I don't think that Tolkien gave the location of the Sea much thought. Certainly not when he wrote the passages that would contradict Fonstad's version. So it's basically choosing which of Tolkien's contradiction you would accept. Personally, I will stick with Fonstad's version.
from Tolkein gateway In The Nature of Middle-earth, Cuiviénen (located on the eastern shores of the Sea of Helcar) is roughly at 200 miles from the Sea of Rhûn[8], or in a more detailed annalistic text on the March of the Quendi Cuiviénen is at around 450 miles eastward from the Sea of Rhûn Christopher Tolkein questioned it too. So is it more likely the Sea of Helcar is east of Rhun? Since it existed in the time of the trees? i don't doubt it changed in size and yes "modern rhun" being where helcar was is a cool concept but maybe "rhun" in the 3rd age was a bit more western?
@@chloe-historyandgames My argument: The Orocarni mountains are said to be as far from Mount Gundabad in the east as the Ered Luin were from the west. The Sea of Helcar definitely was west of the Ororocarni. Also, because the Ered Mithrin already existed when the elves journeyed to Aman, that leaves very little room for the Sea of Helcar to be in, unless it was much, much smaller than indicated. This is why I say there are contradictions that have to be resolved one way or the other.
I know its not canon but I do like the idea of CS Lewis Narnia being across the ocean from Middle Earth. The geography certainly matches & since Valinor was removed who’s to say that there’s no replacement continent with its own seperate myths & legends. Its entirely apt considering the great friendship between the two authors.
Tolkien hated Narnia. He thought it was a mess because it mixed together different mythologies from different backgrounds in a way that was to him, inconsistent and unoriginal. You're right that Tolkien was good friends with Lewis, but he had no problem telling him to his face that he hated The Chronicles of Narnia, and so the idea of it being connected to his Middle-earth would drive him up a wall.
I think the world of Narnia is a unique thing with its own value and sense of spirit. If it was connected to middle-earth then both worlds die in 1949. But they could be part of the 'Wood between the Worlds' multiverse, and sentients from both worlds could meet up in Aslan's Country. Beren, Luthien, and all of the Fellowship (minus Gandalf and Legolas) could meet up with the Narnians in the Afterlife.
@DovahFett it should be pointed out that he only disliked it, not hated it. He said parts did not make sense, not that the entire idea was wrong. There is not the same level of intense dislike that he held for Disney and Dune, for example. And he was OK with letting his grandchildren read it. He used the phrase "it is a pity that that Narnia and some Lewis' other works is out the range of my appreciation, the same way that some of my work is out of his." Basically, if there were ever two authors that could disagree and still be supportive of each other, it would be Tolkien and Lewis.
Considering that both Lewis and Tolkien toyed with ideas of 'different' worlds....here's Tolkien works fragments that hint at the possibility :). "they [the elves] hold that all Creation of any sort must be in Eä, proceeding from Eru in the same way, and therefore being of the same Order. They do not believe in contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds except as an amusing fantasy of the mind. They are (say they) either altogether unknowable, even as to whether they are or are not, or else if there are any intersections (however rare) they are only provinces of one Eä" ... "After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Ea, those who were noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Iluvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. And when they had chosen that point and region where it should be, they began labours that were needed. Others there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Iluvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all." ... "We cannot say that there ‘must’ be elsewhere in Ea other solar systems ‘like’ Arda, still less that, if there are, they or any one of them must contain a parallel to Imbar. We cannot even say that these things are mathematically very ‘ likely’. But even if the presence elsewhere in Ea of biological ‘life’ was demonstrable, it would not invalidate the Elvish view that Arda (at least while it endures) is the dramatic centre. The demonstration that there existed elsewhere Incarnates, parallel to the Children of Eru, would of course modify the picture, though not wholly invalidate it. The Elvish answer would probably be: ‘Well, there is another Tale. It is not our Tale. Eru can no doubt bring to pass more than one. Not everything is adumbrated in the “Ainulindale”; or the “Ainulindale” may have a wider reference than we knew: other dramas, like in kind if different in process and result, may have gone on in Ea, or may yet go on.’" So...all crossovers can be canon :)? But jokes aside, Narnia already is a mulitverse ;).
But what people have to understand about world building is that the outdated maps aren't always "accurate." Tolkien said he started with a map. That map, along with the following, were subject to change. But there's no knowing.
Thanks for this video. I remember the map from the role playing board game some 30 years ago, and i wondered why it is never mentioned. Now i get it is not kanon, even though it seemed very logical to me at that time.
David Day's map is perfect simply because the shape of these unknown lands is nothing more than speculation. His looks similar to real maps made before the age of discovery.
For me, the sign of a well-made video is one that leaves me nodding along to the reasoning behind explanations and just as importantly not leaving me with any questions to ask or worthwhile comments to make. This has been most true of late. The thing is, I like asking questions and making comments, but I cannot so I will not. 😊😊😊❤❤❤😊😊😊
@@VestedUTuber MERP's Middle Earth Campaign and Adventure Guidebook came out in 1982. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting box set originally came out in 1987.
It could though, that Amazon show for example had the perfect opportunity to change settings and be inclusive in a way that makes sense by setting it in another region, but it didn't. Hopefully we see something like that even if it isn't book canon
@@milesthe2tailedfox Of course people always compare the new sequels to the original. And in this case the original happens to be a work, that basically started an entire genre, which it continues to influence many decades after it's release. So sure, the expectations are high, but not impossible to live up to. Which that amazon show for example failed to do.
@@Jiub_SN They could have shown harad and rhun, the humans there being inspired by african and eastern cultures. Slowly see them succumb to Sauron's corruption and turning them into enemies of the west. Think of the line that faramir says during the two towers after killing a haradrim soldier; I wonder he was truly evil at heart, what lies or threats lead him so far from home, and if he would rather have stayed there in peace. Could throw the blue wizards in there trying to stem the flow of evil. Since we know pretty much nothing about all that it would not interfere with other lotr lore and i doubt much fans with have issues with it. Such a missed opportunity.
It would appear the internet has created an appetite for instant knowledge of the most trivial sort, creating users whom always want a little more. It's amazing the depth Tolkien went to as well as a testament to his creative powers. This also fuels this desire to know more, surely there's more? On a side note I see reactors to older movies whom always appear surprised when the movie quickly ends after the climax/twist/resolution. They expect it to go on and it could be said they constantly ask questions instead of watch and put it together themselves from the information given. Story telling is the art of embellishment and detail. Skip to the end, life is short and there's just so damn much out there now.
As far as i love Tolkiens early sketches of Arda, but his description in what was published in Nature of Middle-earth definitely changes much of his geography, Cuivienen and the Orocarni now are far more to the west, almost close to the inland sea of Rhunnand Hildorien is south of it, if attached to an enlarged map (eurafrasian dimensions) it would definitely be where we would suspect nowadays mesopotamia. Southernesse seems to be a combination of Indonesia, Australia and Antarctica...
Now that I'm older, one thing I noticed about the middle earth map is that Mirkwood shouldn't exist. The mountains in front of it would cast such a large rain shadow that whole area should be a desert.
Have you ever been to the Pacific Northwest? Mountains do not turn forests into deserts. Run-off from mountains and glacier melt creating yearly changing water sources make them abundant for plant life and trees.
@@jasonbriggs1853That’s not the same as what he’s talking about. The forests of the PNW lie between the sea and the mountains. The winds coming in off the sea that hit the high mountains of the Cascades are forced upwards and cool, decreasing the amount of water the air can carry and creating precipitation on the seaward side of the range. On the landward side, the humid air from the sea only gets past the mountains once it has been forced over and cooled to the point that it holds little moisture. Once it descends the other side of the range, the air warms up, but it’s still dry, so there’s not nearly as much rain that falls on the inland side of the mountain range. In this comparison, Mirkwood is the inland side of the high mountains, and having a large forest there doesn’t make sense.
I have to add a little note here... Although not cannon, a team of guys (Thomas Morwinsky, Stéphane Hoerlé, Gabriele Quaglia, Oliver Schick and Christian Schröder) in Other Minds magazine ("Mapping Arda", Issue 1, July 2007) published an article where they "devised" their own view of the shapping of Middle-Earth, throughout its different ages. I must say that it is quite interesting to read and that you might take a look at it...
I just looked at it. The Sea of Helcar progressively getting smaller throughout the Second Age was interesting. A little sad too because it reminded me of the Aral Sea.
Very little. It's a remnant of the ancient forests that once covered Eriador, and it's apparently inhabited by reclusive hunters who are related to the Dunlendings.
I love how people come up with those crazy theories. They are often very entertaining. Thing is, the truth about 'unknown' places and locations mentioned vaguely or with similar names could be extremely simple - an author changed it during the creation process and reused the names or ideas. Grey Mountains on Ambarkanta could be a prototype for the known Grey Mountains. I create few worlds in my life. And although they were never as detailed as Tolkien's, the process of creation is not always as straightforward as it seems like. Landmasses change, names are getting updated, drafts are being made. The whole concept of making multiple Ambarkanta maps supports the theory, that sometimes a name is just a 'in-progress' name and it doesn't refer to anything specific at that point.
I kinda like the lack of a full canon world map. The idea that the War of the Last Alliance and the War of the Ring were just regional conflicts and there's a much bigger world out there is fascinating. Looking at a map of Middle Earth and wondering what exists beyond it... It makes you feel like a citizen of ancient Rome hearing the tales of Julius Caesar leading his armies north to the cold and mysterious island of Britain, facing off against towering barbarians wearing the pelts of monsters. Or hearing the terrifying fate of Crassus as he attempted to lead a conquest east to Parthia and the lands beyond. You would know there's some kind of powerful and alien nation to the far east because of trade along the silk road, but no one really knows much about it. And what lands might lay beyond the deserts south of Egypt and Carthage? The vikings found Iceland, Greenland, and North America basically by accident and a Spanish attempt to explore north of the Aztec territory ended in disaster when the expedition team made landfall on the Florida peninsula instead of on the Texas coastline. If those explorers had survived, imagine the stories they would bring back to Spain. There would definitely be horrifying tales about swamps filled with giant man-eating fish-lizards.
I sorta imagine Iluvitar made the old continents into new continents. Separating the lands of the sun for instance. Also, didnt know they literally just yeeted Valinor/the Undying Lands into another Dimension, thats wild.
Suppose Tolkien translated the Red Book without any maps, and without reliable distance conversions. How would you fit the legendarium on our Earth, perhaps before the Würm glaciation?
Wait wait wait what? My copy of Silmarillion (cca 2002 edition) has a well-drawn map of the whole world at the beginning, why is it not mentioned anywhere and unfindable on internet?! Is that some special map that was lost in time or was that fan-fiction by the publisher this whole time?!
Does it? I know the Silmarillion comes with the map of Beleriand. I haven't heard of a world map being included. Do you know which map it is by any chance?
@@DarthGandalfYT I have the book at my parent's old house so I can't really check that soon, but there was a map at the beginning and at the end, one was Beleriand I think, and the other was the full world with the Valar continent on the left, Middle-Earth on the right and Numenor isle in the middle
the land of the sun sounds more like a sort of Japan than a hot place with a desert. Japan is called the Country of the rising sun because it's in the far east, not because the sun is literally there. It looks like the land of the sun is called like that just because it's the eastern most continent
Hahaha, I just now finally realized the pun indicated by the name of this channel. In that darth is the Sith word for "dark lord" which Gandalf would have become had he chosen to take the One Ring.
In case anyone asks, "hey, what about the area to the north?" It's all snow, baby. Thanks papa Morgoth.
Maybe Also angband and gondolin under the water????
@@davidelabarilemobile7094 that at west
@@davidelabarilemobile7094they are more west of the sea and north
@@augiedoggy6436ah...alright
Hey do you have some scuba Gear?????......i want to see beleriand under the water
Snowbody knows... eyyy
It so clear what happened do Dark Lands.. Ungoliant fled there, infested the island with giant spiders and thousands of years later, those lands became known as Australia.
Clearly we need to make sure no one EVER mines under Uluru.
don't scare me 🕷
Hehe,....well considering the position of the Dark Lands it basically IS a combined Australia and Antarctica :).
Maybe Morgoth sent his prison population there.
What’s America the undying lands?
If ever there were a human whom we needed to live forever, or at least 120-130 years, it would have been Tolkien. Imagine the additional stories and details of Middle Earth he would’ve brought to life for us.
I’d like to imagine Tolkien has a whole library of Middle earth literature in Heaven
Kinda? The stories only serve as a catalyst for Elvish. Unless the story or the world expanded his language, he wouldn't write it.
I seriously doubt Tolkien would've wanted that for himself. The industrial revolution already kind of bummed him out about a lot of things, I don't even wanna know what the current digital one would make him think.
@@panwall1327 Really?
@iseeundeadpeople9 yup. When he was creating Elvish, he learned early on that he needed a living world to create the language. He then thought up of Middle Earth as an exercise to create his language.
If the dark land is Australia then it makes sense that the huge nightmare fuel spider went there
Cane toads must be of Morgoth's taint
@@Crafty_Spirit
Cane Toads are invasive, though.
@@VestedUTuber Isn't everything about Morgoth's Ring invasive to Eru's harmony?
@@YadraVoat
Cane Toads would be invasive regardless. They were introduced to Australia by idiots who thought that because they were called _Cane_ Toads, they'd eat the Cane Beetles that were a pest to sugarcane plantations. Except they didn't, they ate everything else, and they multiplied like rabbits in an environment that, despite its reputation, didn't have an answer to them.
You’re so good at making videos about things that have not really been talked about in the UA-cam sphere. You keep coming with gems. Lord of the Rings is never ending content lol
I am a big geography fan in general and tolkien's world is no exception, I always think about what is there or what is here, who lives there, what lives there, and it is unfortunate that we know less and less about the world once you reach a certain point. of course the fan maps are not canon but I still think they are good maps, mostly because the lands beyond what we usually see are pretty open and a blank slate for people to come up with ideas on how to use the land in order to make fan maps or even things like game maps for the world where they create new stuff in the previously unused lands.
sure, we know things like the avari and four dwarven clans living in the east, but we don't actually know their fate or if they are still around, especially the avari. with the dwarves we did get the war of the dwarves and orcs and they still say the seven dwarven clans, so they seem to still be around, but the avari could have been killed by the easterlings because elves often live in the woods and sauron/easterlings probably wanted to destroy the forest and all the elves in it anyways because they are the bad guys who tear down forests to fuel their industry.
as for the south, we know there were other black numenorean colonies along the coast to the further south, but aside from the mumakil elephants that the haradrim use and that we know there is a deep jungle far south, we know very little about the place. and not to mention, the other continents of the world that may or may not exist, we know even less. were there prosperous civilizations of men in these places, or were they more primitive and nomadic? were there even men at all? if not, then what was there? etc.
ugh, there are just so many questions to ask, and I will basically get no definite answers for it, but the point is, the world tolkien has created is far more grand than we give it credit for, and that is only the stuff we know a lot of, yet alone everything else.
also, the fact that we simply call the eastern people "easterlings" and with the exception of certain groups like the wainriders and balchoth, we don't know the possibly many different groups of easterlings. same pretty much goes for the haradrim.
I think the explanation (or at least the excuse) for the lack of knowledge available on the rest of the world is because the writing is supposed to be a translation of books written by in-universe characters, and so naturally just like in our own history, they would know very little of places distant from them (other than small snippets of hearsay) until much later in time (i.e. our own Age of Exploration and the Early Modern Era). Look at really old maps of our world, and writings like those of Herodotus for a comparative example.
I am very much the same. I always wonder "What kind of people live in the east and south? Are there large realms and big cities? Or is it all a tribal society?" Tolkien does not gives us answers...so we have to make our own.
We don't really know how far Sauron's influence reached in the east, but I imagine that Rhûn and Khand might be kingdoms comparable to Rohan and Gondor, that exist as client states to Mordor, together with the Haradrim, Corsairs and Black Numenorians. Although nine rings were given to kings of men. So I guess there once was nine kingdoms, and the nazgûl were once their kings turned into wraiths. Maybe their kingdoms withered, same as them, or were absorbed into Mordor, continued as Rhûn and Khand and other, unnamed kingdoms.
Beyond that, I'd assume there would be nothing strong enough to challenge Sauron's dominion, only people too remote to be of priority. Maybe there's dwarven strongholds too strong to easily conquer, but not strong enough to threaten Sauron, maybe they're allies, or offer favorable trade so Sauron won't attack.
Maybe there's some distant independent kingdoms, or tribal societies that could conceivably trade with Mordor and it's clients, not under Sauron's rule, but close enough for him to have some measure of influence. Surely there must be some who fish and trade along the eastern coast. There could also be all kinds of monstrous beasts. Probably a lot of orcs of various kinds.
@@jeghaterdegforfaen Rhun always felt more like a tribal federation to me, as often fighting each other as they were fighting Gondor.
@@MerkhVisionyes Tolkien did describe himself in universe as someone who uncovered and translated ancient texts about the first 3 ages of the world, and since those texts were likely altered over the course of the 4 ages since the 3rd age, and they are likely biased like any history books
My fan theory - the dark land is the domain of Shelob-like giant spiders descended from Ungoliant, and is possibly ruled by Ungoliant herself (assuming she didn't really eat herself) Sauron stays the hell away from the place because it scares even him!
What do they eat then?
@@Crafty_Spirit
Well, Spiders _are_ known to be cannibals.
@@VestedUTuber Ah, that's fortunate. So as long as I bring enough spiders with me, I won't be considered as a food option!
Sauron with arachnophobia just sounds so funny to me
@@VestedUTuber also any unlucky humans who settled the land before realising what lived there. Maybe the spiders farm them.
I'm fascinated by worldbuilding and sub-creation within Tolkien's world, and the videos on this channel really fuel that fire in me! Especially the ones about lesser know things and obscure references. Good work, love it!
So few mentions of Dor-Winiön, the human kingdom that bordered the sea of Rhûn, their wine was supposedly the most potent, the stuff they were drinking in The Hobbit were barrels floated down the anduin and returned to the kingdom.
I always took the maps to be “in-world,” meaning cartographers actually mapped these out, with the further areas using a lot of guesswork and hear say, much like real world historical maps.
I love this idea!
There is a few things not mentioned in this video that we can say about these lands in the Third Age from most certain to least certain:
1. There are nomadic tribes directly to the east of the Sea of Rhun.
2. There's the wild white Kine of Araw, a type of Oxen that likely lives directly east of the Sea of Rhun.
3. At the start of the Third Age, Eru enclosed Arda with a sea and substituted Valinor with new lands (a proto-North and South America?).
4. The Blue Wizards entered these lands in the Second Age. It is unknown if they survived to the end of the Third Age.
5. Morgoth Worship was practiced in some parts of these lands. There might have been some adapted version of this promoted by Sauron as well.
6. There are additional unknown kingdoms of men to the south and east. Some of these people appeared at the battle of the Pelinor as vassals of Sauron like the short axe-wielding men and the dark-skinned men believed to be from 'South Harad.' Great roads lead east from Mordor. It can be speculated that his vassal territories are vast, stretching far to the east and south.
7. Aragorn and Saruman visited these lands to the east. Gandalf, Aragorn, and to some minor extent Smeagol visited the lands to the south. It is likely that Denathor also knew much of these lands and sent emissaries abroad.
8. There are stone cities of men to the south.
9. There is one or more sources of Mithril in the east. It is likely these are Dwarven sources. By the end of the Third Age, these sources appear to have either dried up and are no longer actively mined or traded abroad. This lines up with the accounts of the issues faced by the eastern dwarves.
10. There are one or more domains of Black Numenoreans to the south. These are Numenorian settlements established before the end of the Second Age. Some of these kingdoms are likely overrun or have otherwise blended with non-Numenorean men by the end of the Third Age. One or more of the Nazgul are likely from these kingdoms.
11. There are four tribes of Dwarves in the east. How many strongholds these dwarves operated is unknown. All we know is that by the end of the Third Age, the dwarves were under pressure from conflicts, with some fleeing west.
12. There are forests in the deep south of Harad, possibly inhabited by Ape-men (gorillas?).
13. Sauron had additional domains or fortresses he directly ruled in the east. This is mentioned in an offhand passage by Tolkien. What these bases of Sauron's power looked like, when he ruled these lands, and what the nature of this rule looked like is unknown. It's likely these were primarily mannish realms that Sauron used as a base of power before returning to Dol Guldor to search for the Ring.
14. The Avari elves are a branch of elves that inhabited the East. Their numbers and strongholds are unknown.
15. Somewhere in the east is likely the remains of Utmno. Tolkien mentions that the deepest pits of Utmno survived the assault by the Valor. These are likely buried deep underground or perhaps beneath some body of water. There may be something like the equivalent of the underdeeps of Moria out there where nameless things or other creatures of Morgoth exist.
16. Sauron probably used local Mannish servants plus some level of magical control to ensnare the minds of Eastern rulers. Saruman copied Sauron in all things, and Grema Wormtongue's control of Theoden was likely an imitation of what Sauron was doing with nearby mannish realms. I have a feeling that combating this control was one of the chief roles of the Blue Wizards during the Second Age.
17. The lands to the east and south roughly mirror Earth by the end of the Third Age. We see this in geography (Eurasian steppe in Rhun), human ethnography (Southrons), and naming (Khan = Turkish). Bilbo's "Last Desert" is probably a cryptic reference to a proto-Gobi Desert.
the 4th age should've been Middle Earth vs the East/South and Darklands. After the War of the Ring, Middle Earth settles down but the places we don't see have been completely taken over by someone like Sauron and launches an all out war. Maybe they pursued industry more and had (relatively) advanced technology compared to the men of Middle Earth.
Might not be a very interesting book but it would make for some cool lore to make a 4th age from. It could never happen though because we'd need Tolkien back to create more languages.
@@KamikazeCommie501 Tolkien started a story like this as a sequel this but quickly realised that to remain true to the overarching narrative of decline, it would be more like Dune in tone.
I personally don't mind that at all, but it wasn't something Tolkien particularly felt compelled to write.
Another alternative story might be the War of the Ring, but set from the perspective of a long-lost book compiled in the east of Middle Earth.
@@emerald10005 Utmno was not completely destroyed as stated in The Silmarillion III Quenta Silmarillion Chapter 3: "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor"
As for Mithril, it was briefly mentioned in a fan letter that I can't find the source at the moment.
@@KamikazeCommie501 There was no being left to fill the role of a Sauron-class Dark Lord after Sauron's defeat. That's one of the reasons Tolkien abandoned his 4th Age story; the villains would have had to have been much more mundane.
@@istari0 He wouldn't have to be a maiar, he could just be a human follower of Morgoth. His power comes from technology, not magic.
One of the best videos from such a firm skeptic as Darth Gandalf!
7:00 I just want to point out, that while Wild Wood is an extremely cool name, I remember reading somewhere that it might not be an actual wood, rather the description of general woodlands in early Middle-earth.
Not sure if you’ve come across this but there’s an amazing fanfiction known as the Lost Tales of Harad that explores and world builds in Harad in a Tolkienesque way. They’ve created an interesting map of Harad as well.
Give me a link,i can not find it.
@@lordcristobal I can't post links as UA-cam auto labels it as spam but they're on Instagram. They're on Facebook too but it looks like they don't update their Facebook page.
say please, asshole.@@lordcristobal
Yes, please give a link
@@AndBra-q2m It’s on Instagram. If I post a link, UA-cam will not allow me to comment.
I do enjoy looking at a good map (or few maps) and seeing how things unfold on them. Thanks!
same i bought Atlas of Middle Earth and spend more time looking at the maps trying to figure out where everything is rather than reading the content (which i do as well)
Amazon could've so easily centred their new series on these completely unexplored worlds without pissing off the entire fandom with lazy shit that messes up all the canonical stuff every LOTR knows already about the main regions in the Second Age. Harad and Rhun and Khand are entirely unexplored and clearly hinting towards non-European equivalents of Africa, Russia and Central Asia. I mean the Numenorian colonisation of Harad's coastline would be a perfect way to also deal with the subject of diversified/modern casting. Harad and Rhun and Khand and also what we already know of the Easterlings are perfect ground for a more in-depth worldbuilding that can flesh them out past some orientalist stereotypes.
I think the explanation (or at least the excuse) for the lack of knowledge available on the rest of the world is because the writing is supposed to be a translation of books written by in-universe characters, and so naturally just like in our own history, they would know very little of places distant from them (other than small snippets of hearsay) until much later in time (i.e. our own Age of Exploration and the Early Modern Era). Look at really old maps of our world, and writings like those of Herodotus for a comparative example.
Excellent vid, one of the few I’m pausing and re-listening while looking at the screen.
Look at late medieval maps, and you can see things that look like transitional stages between Arda and the current world.
There’s a few great tolkien content creators but this guy 👆 don’t miss
There be dragons, surely.
Great work DG. You would have to be very pleased with your direction moving forward. Always excited to see/hear your next works. Keep up the great effort!
Cheers from down under
Ronald & Stavvy
Since Tolkien insisted that Ardur is in fact Earth, The Dark Lands seem to be Africa, and their name simply refers to a trend during Tolkien's day of referring to Africa as 'The Dark Continent', partly inspired by Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness', partly inspired by Africa's vast and unexplored dense equitorial jungles, and partly in a very passé way to refer to the races of people who lived there.
To me, on Tolkien's maps, The Dark Lands look like a scaled up Madagascar, blown up in size until its northeastern peninsula meets the Horn of Africa and the southern tip of Arabia.
However, the shape is also reminscent of Lemuria, a theorised lost continent that served as a land bridge between the Indian subcontinent and East Africa, which was used as an explanation before the discovery of plate tectonics as to how species made it across the Indian Ocean.
Remember, Tolkien was writing before the discovery of plate tectonics and accurate bathymetric mapping of the Indian Ocean floor, so the idea of whole continents sinking and becoming lost, like Lemuria, wasn't a crackpot theory but mainstream scientific concensus. If indeed Tolkien imagined Ardur to be Earth in an ancient age, then the common understanding of the day would posit Lemuria at that time was still above the waves having not yet sunk into the crust.
Great video, I've never seen them compared in detail like this definetly sharing
A lot of people miss the point, which you make, which is that Middle-Earth is actually supposed to be OUR world, our real Earth, albeit about 12,000 years ago, before massive geological changes, which is why it looks different now. In an interview with Tolkien, the interviewer placed Mordor at about the present day Balkans, and Tolkien agreed.
Interestingly, this would put the end of the events of the novels at just before the real-world Younger Dryas event.
NOT accidental on Tolkien's part. ^_^
Doggerland!
As someone who lives in the Balkans, Mordor seems like a reasonable past to it. It's all FUBAR here
Ukrainians refer to russia as mordor which is quite apt.
@@derekflynn9644Mordor map look exactly like Turkey tho, square mountain range, enter through north-east (Constantinople, straight of Bosporus) and the Ottoman Empire were once a great villain to European who banded together
The road goes ever on...
Cool video with some recap on maps. I remember that in The Lord of the Rings it was said that the attack on Minas Tirith would be only the first attack of many and that there would come many more armies from distant lands. So I guess Tolkien thought of quite a large eastern part of middle earth.
3:35 I've always thought of the Dark Lands as Madagascar on steroids!!
At 10:40 It was said that when sailors reported back from these new lands they said “they could still die there”. Isn’t it the case that non elven races who travel to the undying lands still died to begin with? Tolkien describes it as a person rapidly aging and dying in peace when Frodo goes there to be healed and given rest for his part in the War of the Ring. It was just a point I was confused on.
I thought the non-elven people that went to the Undying Lands were Bilbo and Frodo. I'm not counting Gandalf. Everyone else that tried was not able to land. Ungoliant and Morgoth also being special cases since they're not really like other mortals either.
Yes humans would still die in valinor but the numenoreans were not clear on that and so desired to go there to escape death.
@eumaies I thought the reason man wasn't allowed there is because men are supposed to die and they wouldn't if they got to the Undying Lands.
@@raymondlugo9960 In The Fall of Numenor the king of Numenor Arpharazon rallies the fleet and sails to Valinor to wage war with the Valar the only reason they didn’t make it there was because Eru sunk the fleet before they made landfall. This shows that it was once possible to sail there however, after the failed invasion attempt by Numenor that is when Non-Elven races where no longer allowed access. So Morgoth could still physically go there just like everyone else could back in the first age.
@@eumaies That makes sense considering that Sauron likely wouldn’t tell them that part of the “undying lands” in order to rally them to war
Dude this is something I did many times, looking up full maps of middle earth. Some I think are really good, others are... ...interesting in my opinion.
Oh this is gonna be good. Always have had questions of this topic
For some extra context it widely accepted that Mordor, the Sea of Ruhn, and Ruhn itself are the dried up lake bed of the Sea of Helcar.
from Tolkein gateway
Christopher Tolkien questioned whether or not the Sea of Rhûn could "...be identified with the Sea of Helkar, vastly shrunken". [4] In The Atlas of Middle-earth, Karen Wynn Fonstad assumed that Mordor, Khand, and parts of Rhûn in the Second and Third Ages lay where the Sea of Helcar had been in the First Age, and that the Sea of Rhûn and Sea of Núrnen were its remnants. However, in The Peoples of Middle-earth (which was published after Fontstad's Atlas), there are references to the Sea of Rhûn and its surrounding geographical landmarks existing as far back as the Years of the Trees at the time of the Great Journey,[5] and Melkor was said to have created Mount Doom in Mordor during the "long First Age".[6] Additionally, it is told in Unfinished Tales that the migration of the Drúedain from Hildórien brought them westward through lands south of Mordor.[7] In The Nature of Middle-earth, Cuiviénen (located on the eastern shores of the Sea of Helcar) is roughly at 200 miles from the Sea of Rhûn[8], or in a more detailed annalistic text on the March of the Quendi Cuiviénen is at around 450 miles eastward from the Sea of Rhûn
Fanon =/= canon
@@superm530 most of these maps are fan made. The only map drawn by Tolkien of Arda in the 1st age suggests this.
Wait I just found out about that sea how much you know about that Sea ⛵
@@nemisous83wait there was a great sea ⛵ that is how I found out
Loved every minute of this. Keep up the great work! 🙌⏳
I've never really thought about it before but it must have been very sad for those Dunedain explorers to finally catch sight of land only to realise it is the eastern tip of Middle Earth.
We shall not cease from exploration;
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started,
And know the place for the first time.
Just imagine, if Tolkien lived 20 years longer and created a second Silmarillion, filling the next 3000 years after the Return of the King with a similar fine mixture of myth and history.
The rise of the grand joined Kingdom of Gondor and Arnor, its wars with Harad and the Easterlings, expeditions to the farthest rims of the Middle-Earth, long-ruined Utumno, desolate and forgotten Angband, dragon skeletons of the size of a city, lost tribes descendant from the Numenorian colonies. Finding the lost Silmarils.
And Dagor Dagorath.
There's surely a lot of material there. I think finding Utumno would make a magnificent chapter, or even a book if it was done right. Not hard to believe that a Balrog, or if not that, certainly some dragons or other of Morgoth's creations might still be hiding there.
thanks for the info, this truly helps a lot
*Middle Earth Roleplaying* came up with lots of things to fill the rest of the continent. It was lots of fun.
1:22 I have a very irrational hatred of maps that imitate or look like this one. One thing I love about most Middle-earth maps is that the coastlines look nice. To then see those other maps like this actually used-or worse, even in replacement of the -in my opinion- objectively better maps in the case of the Realms in Exile mod for Crusader Kings III-immediately turns me away.
I am always willing to defend Fonstad's placement of the Sea of Helcar at the point where Morder would be later, even after History of Middle Earth.
Simply because it is the place that fits best with all that Tolkien has written. If it didn't exist there, there would be hardly any places to put it.
Personally I don't think that Tolkien gave the location of the Sea much thought. Certainly not when he wrote the passages that would contradict Fonstad's version.
So it's basically choosing which of Tolkien's contradiction you would accept. Personally, I will stick with Fonstad's version.
I've always thought Ruhn, Mordor, and the sea of Ruhn being the remnants of the Sea of Helcar a more compelling story honestly.
from Tolkein gateway
In The Nature of Middle-earth, Cuiviénen (located on the eastern shores of the Sea of Helcar) is roughly at 200 miles from the Sea of Rhûn[8], or in a more detailed annalistic text on the March of the Quendi Cuiviénen is at around 450 miles eastward from the Sea of Rhûn
Christopher Tolkein questioned it too. So is it more likely the Sea of Helcar is east of Rhun? Since it existed in the time of the trees? i don't doubt it changed in size and yes "modern rhun" being where helcar was is a cool concept but maybe "rhun" in the 3rd age was a bit more western?
@@chloe-historyandgames My argument: The Orocarni mountains are said to be as far from Mount Gundabad in the east as the Ered Luin were from the west. The Sea of Helcar definitely was west of the Ororocarni. Also, because the Ered Mithrin already existed when the elves journeyed to Aman, that leaves very little room for the Sea of Helcar to be in, unless it was much, much smaller than indicated.
This is why I say there are contradictions that have to be resolved one way or the other.
interesting , that sounds right, i never knew much about the orocarni mountains @@windsaw151
I know its not canon but I do like the idea of CS Lewis Narnia being across the ocean from Middle Earth. The geography certainly matches & since Valinor was removed who’s to say that there’s no replacement continent with its own seperate myths & legends. Its entirely apt considering the great friendship between the two authors.
On par with thinking the 5 or 6th age would be like Robert e Howard 's hyperbora
Tolkien hated Narnia. He thought it was a mess because it mixed together different mythologies from different backgrounds in a way that was to him, inconsistent and unoriginal. You're right that Tolkien was good friends with Lewis, but he had no problem telling him to his face that he hated The Chronicles of Narnia, and so the idea of it being connected to his Middle-earth would drive him up a wall.
I think the world of Narnia is a unique thing with its own value and sense of spirit. If it was connected to middle-earth then both worlds die in 1949. But they could be part of the 'Wood between the Worlds' multiverse, and sentients from both worlds could meet up in Aslan's Country.
Beren, Luthien, and all of the Fellowship (minus Gandalf and Legolas) could meet up with the Narnians in the Afterlife.
@DovahFett it should be pointed out that he only disliked it, not hated it. He said parts did not make sense, not that the entire idea was wrong. There is not the same level of intense dislike that he held for Disney and Dune, for example. And he was OK with letting his grandchildren read it. He used the phrase "it is a pity that that Narnia and some Lewis' other works is out the range of my appreciation, the same way that some of my work is out of his."
Basically, if there were ever two authors that could disagree and still be supportive of each other, it would be Tolkien and Lewis.
Considering that both Lewis and Tolkien toyed with ideas of 'different' worlds....here's Tolkien works fragments that hint at the possibility :).
"they [the elves] hold that all Creation of any sort must be in Eä, proceeding from Eru in the same way, and therefore being of the same Order. They do not believe in contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds except as an amusing fantasy of the mind. They are (say they) either altogether unknowable, even as to whether they are or are not, or else if there are any intersections (however rare) they are only provinces of one Eä"
...
"After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Ea, those who were noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Iluvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. And when they had chosen that point and region where it should be, they began labours that were needed. Others there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Iluvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all."
...
"We cannot say that there ‘must’ be elsewhere in Ea other solar systems ‘like’ Arda, still less that, if there are, they or any one of them must contain a parallel to Imbar. We cannot even say that these things are mathematically very ‘ likely’. But even if the presence elsewhere in Ea of biological ‘life’ was demonstrable, it would not invalidate the Elvish view that Arda (at least while it endures) is the dramatic centre. The demonstration that there existed elsewhere Incarnates, parallel to the Children of Eru, would of course modify the picture, though not wholly invalidate it. The Elvish answer would probably be: ‘Well, there is another Tale. It is not our Tale. Eru can no doubt bring to pass more than one. Not everything is adumbrated in the “Ainulindale”; or the “Ainulindale” may have a wider reference than we knew: other dramas, like in kind if different in process and result, may have gone on in Ea, or may yet go on.’"
So...all crossovers can be canon :)? But jokes aside, Narnia already is a mulitverse ;).
Just Subscribed from this One Video, Great Job!!
That MERP map you showed was quite a bit different from the one in the playbooks back when MERP was initially released in the '80s.
YES, FINALLY SOMEONE MADE A VIDEO ABOUT IT, thank you man, thank you
But what people have to understand about world building is that the outdated maps aren't always "accurate." Tolkien said he started with a map. That map, along with the following, were subject to change. But there's no knowing.
Good program, very informative
Thanks for this video. I remember the map from the role playing board game some 30 years ago, and i wondered why it is never mentioned. Now i get it is not kanon, even though it seemed very logical to me at that time.
To the east is the a small yellow ork known as chorks and to the south are tall stone age orks called blorks.
I find the distant lands so interesting and despite not being cannon i think the lotr mod for Minecraft has my favourite exploration of those lands
Love that mod but I'm sad that they haven't updated it in over a year.
David Day's map is perfect simply because the shape of these unknown lands is nothing more than speculation. His looks similar to real maps made before the age of discovery.
Imagine how weird it would be for a world to go from being flat to being round overnight for the people living there.
Wow, now I feel better about my world sketches; if Tolkien was that... simplistic? with his!
Simplicity is never a bad thing...well, mostly never a bad thing.
For me, the sign of a well-made video is one that leaves me nodding along to the reasoning behind explanations and just as importantly not leaving me with any questions to ask or worthwhile comments to make. This has been most true of late. The thing is, I like asking questions and making comments, but I cannot so I will not.
😊😊😊❤❤❤😊😊😊
Could you do a deep dive of the role-playing map?
It's probably heavily influenced by Faerun from D&D's Forgotten Realms setting. The structure of the continent looks VERY similar.
@@VestedUTuber MERP's Middle Earth Campaign and Adventure Guidebook came out in 1982. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting box set originally came out in 1987.
The worst thing about the Lotr franchise: it's never going to progress beyond what Tolkien had already written 😢
It could though, that Amazon show for example had the perfect opportunity to change settings and be inclusive in a way that makes sense by setting it in another region, but it didn't. Hopefully we see something like that even if it isn't book canon
Even if it did everyone would bitch about it
@@milesthe2tailedfox And some would say that they would be right to do so.
@@milesthe2tailedfox
Of course people always compare the new sequels to the original. And in this case the original happens to be a work, that basically started an entire genre, which it continues to influence many decades after it's release.
So sure, the expectations are high, but not impossible to live up to. Which that amazon show for example failed to do.
@@Jiub_SN They could have shown harad and rhun, the humans there being inspired by african and eastern cultures. Slowly see them succumb to Sauron's corruption and turning them into enemies of the west. Think of the line that faramir says during the two towers after killing a haradrim soldier; I wonder he was truly evil at heart, what lies or threats lead him so far from home, and if he would rather have stayed there in peace. Could throw the blue wizards in there trying to stem the flow of evil. Since we know pretty much nothing about all that it would not interfere with other lotr lore and i doubt much fans with have issues with it. Such a missed opportunity.
Good luck sir💕 I really love your Video🤗
the last desert, with the wild wereworms
Iron Crown Enterprises made a great map for the dark lands. Its a true work of art.
It would appear the internet has created an appetite for instant knowledge of the most trivial sort, creating users whom always want a little more. It's amazing the depth Tolkien went to as well as a testament to his creative powers. This also fuels this desire to know more, surely there's more?
On a side note I see reactors to older movies whom always appear surprised when the movie quickly ends after the climax/twist/resolution. They expect it to go on and it could be said they constantly ask questions instead of watch and put it together themselves from the information given. Story telling is the art of embellishment and detail.
Skip to the end, life is short and there's just so damn much out there now.
1:23 I always thought the Middle Earth Role Playing map was so cool beyond words. I used to just gaze at it and use my imagination on it. 👍💪
my theory is that the darklands became australia. Would explain the ridiculous size of the spiders there. Thanks a lot ungoliant
As far as i love Tolkiens early sketches of Arda, but his description in what was published in Nature of Middle-earth definitely changes much of his geography, Cuivienen and the Orocarni now are far more to the west, almost close to the inland sea of Rhunnand Hildorien is south of it, if attached to an enlarged map (eurafrasian dimensions) it would definitely be where we would suspect nowadays mesopotamia.
Southernesse seems to be a combination of Indonesia, Australia and Antarctica...
Karen Wynn Fonstads map is far too small, it isn't nearly eurafrasian size, innfact it would be a very tiny planet if taken literally...
As someone who has only read the LOTR trilogy and the Hobbit, this made zero sense to me but had me completely intrigued
2:00 Tolkien literally used an eyeball as reference
Now that I'm older, one thing I noticed about the middle earth map is that Mirkwood shouldn't exist. The mountains in front of it would cast such a large rain shadow that whole area should be a desert.
Have you ever been to the Pacific Northwest? Mountains do not turn forests into deserts. Run-off from mountains and glacier melt creating yearly changing water sources make them abundant for plant life and trees.
@@jasonbriggs1853 I live in the Pacific Northwest and I've seen how quickly mountains give way to desert.
@@jasonbriggs1853That’s not the same as what he’s talking about. The forests of the PNW lie between the sea and the mountains. The winds coming in off the sea that hit the high mountains of the Cascades are forced upwards and cool, decreasing the amount of water the air can carry and creating precipitation on the seaward side of the range. On the landward side, the humid air from the sea only gets past the mountains once it has been forced over and cooled to the point that it holds little moisture. Once it descends the other side of the range, the air warms up, but it’s still dry, so there’s not nearly as much rain that falls on the inland side of the mountain range. In this comparison, Mirkwood is the inland side of the high mountains, and having a large forest there doesn’t make sense.
I thought the area beyond the map was just a large table, a few tokens, some dice, snacks, and books!
really good video thanks cheers from Canada. (Forcehl)
I have to add a little note here... Although not cannon, a team of guys (Thomas Morwinsky, Stéphane Hoerlé, Gabriele Quaglia, Oliver Schick and Christian Schröder) in Other Minds magazine ("Mapping Arda", Issue 1, July 2007) published an article where they "devised" their own view of the shapping of Middle-Earth, throughout its different ages. I must say that it is quite interesting to read and that you might take a look at it...
I just looked at it. The Sea of Helcar progressively getting smaller throughout the Second Age was interesting. A little sad too because it reminded me of the Aral Sea.
In that Middle Earth map at 1:22 is that a country of Tyranids beneath the Empire of Urd?
“The end (of Main Street) is
just the beginning again.”
- Pleasantville (1998)
I always like to think of thr dominant tribes of Harad coalescing into what we knew of as Sheba, and of course later the Ethiopian empire.
The blackwood aka Eryn Vorn is never brought up...why? Is their any info about it...
Very little. It's a remnant of the ancient forests that once covered Eriador, and it's apparently inhabited by reclusive hunters who are related to the Dunlendings.
I love how people come up with those crazy theories. They are often very entertaining. Thing is, the truth about 'unknown' places and locations mentioned vaguely or with similar names could be extremely simple - an author changed it during the creation process and reused the names or ideas. Grey Mountains on Ambarkanta could be a prototype for the known Grey Mountains.
I create few worlds in my life. And although they were never as detailed as Tolkien's, the process of creation is not always as straightforward as it seems like. Landmasses change, names are getting updated, drafts are being made. The whole concept of making multiple Ambarkanta maps supports the theory, that sometimes a name is just a 'in-progress' name and it doesn't refer to anything specific at that point.
Clearly there is the mountains of wind in the east, and the taurthrim and Morewaith in the south
The sea could have transformed into a salt flat.
I kinda like the lack of a full canon world map. The idea that the War of the Last Alliance and the War of the Ring were just regional conflicts and there's a much bigger world out there is fascinating.
Looking at a map of Middle Earth and wondering what exists beyond it...
It makes you feel like a citizen of ancient Rome hearing the tales of Julius Caesar leading his armies north to the cold and mysterious island of Britain, facing off against towering barbarians wearing the pelts of monsters. Or hearing the terrifying fate of Crassus as he attempted to lead a conquest east to Parthia and the lands beyond. You would know there's some kind of powerful and alien nation to the far east because of trade along the silk road, but no one really knows much about it. And what lands might lay beyond the deserts south of Egypt and Carthage?
The vikings found Iceland, Greenland, and North America basically by accident and a Spanish attempt to explore north of the Aztec territory ended in disaster when the expedition team made landfall on the Florida peninsula instead of on the Texas coastline. If those explorers had survived, imagine the stories they would bring back to Spain. There would definitely be horrifying tales about swamps filled with giant man-eating fish-lizards.
I always wonder about what lies beyond the maps described in the Hyborian age in Conan lore.
Beyond the map lies the realm of Fanfiction.
Curious name on that first map, the Lands of the Sun, given the Sun wouldn't show up for thousands of years.
I enjoyed this quite a bit
I sorta imagine Iluvitar made the old continents into new continents. Separating the lands of the sun for instance.
Also, didnt know they literally just yeeted Valinor/the Undying Lands into another Dimension, thats wild.
Wish books and films could explore these other lands.
If a video about the Dark Lands would only be 2 mins, maybe make it a short. Very good short content.
I wonder if it's a coincidence that Kalorme sounds like Calormen, from Narnia
So interesting, maybe scope for a film in the future
Just found ur channel, that name made me subscribe
This was fun. Thanks
Remember places didnt exist on maps till they were explored. Perhaps places exist in Lord of the rings that haven't been found
Suppose Tolkien translated the Red Book without any maps, and without reliable distance conversions. How would you fit the legendarium on our Earth, perhaps before the Würm glaciation?
This is one of those things where I really want to know more but I also appreciate the mystery of the unknowns. Oh if only Tolkien had more time!
I think the best version is the CK3 mod map, it just looks great and is quite detailed
I was always of the impression that east of middle earth was the land of Narnia (as Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were friends, it may be entirely possible).
Wait wait wait what? My copy of Silmarillion (cca 2002 edition) has a well-drawn map of the whole world at the beginning, why is it not mentioned anywhere and unfindable on internet?! Is that some special map that was lost in time or was that fan-fiction by the publisher this whole time?!
Does it? I know the Silmarillion comes with the map of Beleriand. I haven't heard of a world map being included. Do you know which map it is by any chance?
@@DarthGandalfYT I have the book at my parent's old house so I can't really check that soon, but there was a map at the beginning and at the end, one was Beleriand I think, and the other was the full world with the Valar continent on the left, Middle-Earth on the right and Numenor isle in the middle
the land of the sun sounds more like a sort of Japan than a hot place with a desert. Japan is called the Country of the rising sun because it's in the far east, not because the sun is literally there. It looks like the land of the sun is called like that just because it's the eastern most continent
I like how the MURP map has the island of Hârn right in the middle
I loved _The Atlas of Middle Earth_ by Karen Wynn Fonstad. No Tolkien nerd should be without it!
Hahaha, I just now finally realized the pun indicated by the name of this channel.
In that darth is the Sith word for "dark lord" which Gandalf would have become had he chosen to take the One Ring.
Lotro music in the background 😊 Rohan!
What lies beyond the edge of the map? Its just a large fence, guarded by a mean warg.
I have the Tolkein Atlas. I believe it discusses this
So the Walls of the Sun were Middle-Earth's backrooms.
Anybody play the ck3 mod realms in exile? I wonder where they got the south and Eastern lands from. Bellakar and others.
Bellakar is from the Middle-earth Roleplaying game (MERP).
@DarthGandalfYT ahhh that makes sense. Thanks