The translucent projection onto the camera plane is GENIUS. I've seen so many explanations about 4D space, but only now has it really clicked for me. The "slice" method does tell you how it works on a theoretical level, but cutting out the middleman by projecting 4D to a 2D camera (instead of taking a 3D slice) makes it sooo much more intuitive.
@person it's the second one and yes you can directly project 4d onto a 2d camera, it's still pretty similar to the 3d slice example if you think about it but you actually get full control of a camera in 4d with 4 of the 6 degrees of motion
@person it's possible for a diffirent eye. Our eyes take light projections through a 2d hole. But a 360 lidar reads an information from around it. An x-ray takes a cumulaive 3d data about the object. A scanner takes information from the whole space. So if we change an eye for something that can take that information it would be possible.
"... why dont we just render it anyway?" Was a thought i had when i was first introduced to 4D space concepts, and im glad someone out there can put it to practice
Just add a simultaneous multiplayer option like other crazy mini golf games and you will have a decent shot at getting some youtube traction with it. And since it's not a story based game it should mostly just assist sales.
"I don't really want another multi-year project right now, so this will probably be a relatively short and minimalist game that I just spend a couple months on and release". A tale as old as indie games, haha. I'm looking forward to seeing the amazing thing this becomes over the next year or two! Or, if you're someone who can actually pull off a "quick side project", I'll be impressed by that as well.
actually it is possible for this to be one of those things where it starts as a side project but is updated over a longer period of time with many updates.
YES! FINALLY! Someone made the sliding part of the 4th dimension! I was saying this for so long, if a 3d person holds a 4d hypersphere, its just going to slide out! Same in this game with sliding along 4d walls
Oh I didn't think about it like that... it's basically impossible for a 3d object to cup a 4d object... You'd just be balancing it like a ball on a plane even if you could move through the 4th dimension
For the next game CodeParade makes: "So yeah, I wanted to take a breather try something simple for my next game: using non-euclidean geometry in a 4D world, nothing too out there. Should take me about half a year or so; see you then." But seriously man, great job so far! I look forward to seeing the progress on this one. 4D minigolf is such a cool idea!
Combining his 4D and non-euclidean engines into one brain-bensing spacial nightmare would either be easy or exponentially harder, depending on how compatible the math is and whether that f*ks up either component's UX.
I had a realization. This engine uses "sliding" through the other dimensions when you encounter a wall. But I've always envisioned that you would be able to see and phase through objects. Then it hit me, It would be BOTH. In the same way that the third dimensions adds pitch and yall, the fourth dimension would add phasing and sliding. And objects would be a combination of both.
The new degrees of freedom are usually called "reeling" and "twirling". Reeling changes which direction you are facing, similar to yaw. Twirling is similar to roll, as it doesn't change where you are facing, however twirling doesn't make you "fall over" like rolling would, because it doesn't change which direction is "up".
@@Adam-zt4cn twirling really hates my brain. fun fact, you can switch which directions are left and right by twirling. So you can't just tell a four dimensional being to turn left, you also have to tell them another direction to orient themselves towards.
Oh wow. I love the shadow feature, I haven't seen that before in any style of game where the play-field is working in a higher dimension than what the camera can see. And the 4d golf game sounds really fun.
This is something I always wanted to explore. I also never understood why all "4D" games use this roundabout slicing method instead of just projecting the 4D space onto a 2D plane like we do in 3D games. For some reason people have a misguided way of thinking about this subject. Almost every time someone uses the flatlander analogy they say something like "The flatlander sees 2D objects, whereas we see 3D objects", which always bothers me, because - as you correctly stated in this video - the flatlander really sees 1D objects and we see 2D objects. We can't see the backside of things, we can't see through walls etc. So we already do not see the whole 3D shape. This isn't even something specific to higher dimensions, we experience this every day in our life. But seeing a 2D image is not the same as seeing 2D slices of our world. Taking a 3D slice of a 4D world and then projecting that onto a 2D screen is so unnatural, I don't think one can build any intuition from that. If we had to interact with a 3D world in that way, we would be just as confused.
I kind of get it, as 3d slices is exactly how you, a human with 3d eyeballs would perceive a 4 dimensional space, but it doesn't help that much with understanding it.
@@jetison333 we don't really have 3D eyeballs though. We see via our retinas which are 2D. We just see 2 2D images at once from slightly different angles so our brains can interpret depth. Projecting a 4D world onto a 3D slice would only help us to understand it if it were in VR, so each eye could see something slightly different to perceive depth. When it's on a screen, from a 1 point perspective, it makes much more sense to see a 2D image because... screens are inherently 2D.
The idea of playing around in 4d space is so exciting. From the demo, it looks like you've implemented it really well. Psyched to see what you come up with!
@@angledcoathanger His game looks pretty different from the games he brought up. He wanted to avoid making the 3D equivalent of Fez, and he succeeded in my opinion.
I have literally had this idea and you beat me to it. It makes so much sense! It's just like 3D glasses- instead of seeing a 2D picture and trying to imagine 3D, you see several 2D pictures and your brain automatically understands it as 3D. Except in this case, it's 4D! Rotations are still kinda tough for me to wrap my head around, but isometrically and orthographically just sliding a 3D slice through with transparent edges in the fourth dimension has helped me understand 4D SO much better.
I think that mini golf is a extremely unique gameplay mechanic to have in 4D and would absolutely be a perfect way to introduce the concept of 4D space. Brilliant idea.
The faded projection thing is an excellent idea, it provides vital context to the object you're looking at meaning you don't have to scroll through the entire slice. Can't wait to see where this goes!
That transparency idea is genius! It makes things so much more understandable and really does the best job I've ever seen of really expanding your FOV into the 4th dimension
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When you slided by the wall and it just made sense... can't wait for the golf game to be released.
Really interesting video! I've seen many implementations but yours seems the most intuitive, and I especially like the 3D shadows cast by the 4D objects
gonna be honest, so much of this little demo made it into the game in the end. honestly i really love how such a good idea it was to become such a strong foundation, and genuinely impressed how smooth this concept can fade into completed idea, at least on the level of presentation. its certainty cleaned up a ton with the game.
Super neat! This is still using slices, basically the same as 4D miner I think. But the transparency innovation makes it a lot closer to a volumetric view. In true volumetric view you’d have the 4D stuff projected to a volumetric plane (a 3D display) and have that projected to the screen (a 2D display). Your display would be a cube or rectangular prism and the center coordinate is the “middle” of the screen, and there are up/down and the four relative horizontal directions: left right ana and kata. I *think* what you’re doing amounts to taking that volumetric view and squishing it along one of the horizontal directions, so actually this is very close to volumetric without requiring the user to be able to parse a 3D plane of information. So actually yeah this is really cool! What might also be neat is to then blueshift things to your ana and redshift things to your kata. Or make the game stereoscopic and *only* display geometry to your ana in one eye and geometry to your kata in the other eye (have the user cross their eyes or use a VR headset). I wonder if this method works well with lots of geometry or if it gets confusing. Anyway I’m looking forward to it!
Nice implementation of viewing more distant objects in the 4th dimension. This way we can actually visualize what it would be like to have a 3D object offsets in the 4th dimension or even some 4D objects
video games are like a crazy perfect mechanism by which to explore 4d space. love what you're doing, bringing these concepts to a larger audience so it can be further expanded upon
Minigolf is a cool idea but since normal minigolf is in 2 dimensions the gameplay in this game will be in a mundane 3 dimensions. I feel like this version of minigolf would be better represented as a golfball floating in a 3D volume. I think a fundamentally 3D game would better suit going into higher dimensions
it's kinda interesting, bc. that means you can graph the position in (w,x,y) 3d space, so I imagine that you can put a little cube with an outline of the golf course in the GUI as the minimap
Idk what kind of minigolf you've been playing that is strictly 2D in movement complexity. I've seen a lot of minigolf places where you gotta aim jumps and travel vertical sections, and then there are digital minigolf games have you do all sorts of whacky 3D antics as well.
Maybe an idea would be some kind of space shooter or plane flying simulator? Though these are already not easy to control in 3 dimensions and you probably would have to provide controls for the 4 extra rotation axes as well. Maybe someone else could also build something like this on top of the open source engine that will hopefully be released together with this game.
Fez wasn't a 2D slice of the 3D world, it was a projection of the 3D world into a 2D plane. If it was a slice then the puzzles wouldn't have been solvable as it relied on the projection bringing areas far away in 3D being made much closer.
As an (almost) mathematician, slicing is the way I think about higher dimensions, except for rare occasions. Your concept for the game is super cool, can't wait to play it!
The "shadow" projection is pure genius. It actually works very well, might even be be something you could work with. I could see a world in which you could control in the 4 dimensions at once. It could be interesting to see whether that can be done. We are used to projecting 2D controls onto 3D movement, I wonder if it'd be possible to project unified 3D controls into 4d space. Maybe using a hand tracker or something like that.
I've been following the 4d miner development, so I had an idea of what you might be going for, but I can not *explain* my excitement when you started talking about the slice method and want to go beyond it.
The transparency was absolute Genius!!! The entire 4D thing still is very hard to understand, but this is by far the best way to visualize in a immersive way. Amazing work!!
2:22 Wait a second In the book Flatland, isn't there an ever-present fog that essentially does this? It helps the Flatlanders distinguish between shapes without needed to touch!
@@Anonymous-df8it Iirc all of the flatland shapes were cyclopes. And the women were lined with a mouth and an eye at one end so probably not a lot of room for them to have two eyes.
This is the best implementation of 4d I've ever seen. Just seeing the 3d shadow of the "sphere floating" it's demonstrating the potential of this approach. Great work. Looking forward to the next one
Ooo! Let's spitball some names! - Aces In 4D Spaces - Tesseractive Golf - Fore-D I know I could think of more if I knew more about a) golf and b) fourth dimensional space.
A 4D minigolf game where it's partially a puzzle game about finding the hole on a 4D object would be super neat. Excited to see what you can do with it.
this man has explained visualizing a 4d space... with actual visuals... I CANT EXPLAIN HOW COOL I FIND THE CONCEPT OF EVEN BEING ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE VIEWING A 4D SPACE IN REAL TIME. AND HES USING IT TO PLAY MINIGOLF I- i love this world and how far we've come
Guess it's hard to get a first person view of 4D because our minds literally cannot comprehend it completely, so you have to make some adjustments for it to make sense I'm fascinated by this kind of stuff, I mean "hypercube" is literally in my name lol
I love you. You're achieving everything I ever wanted to achieve, & you're laying the groundwork for my own game to be perceived as almost mundane. I'm tired of being the most bizarre game maker, on other timeliness. I think I came back to the past to start over, with a more simple, at one with the universe vibe. Thank you for easing my transition into becoming a creator. In my first worlds, I never noticed your games. I have to give my retrocausal life travel some meaning, to make it worth all the suffering... discovering new creators who are building the stepping stones I will use to reach my own goals is one such worthwhile meaning. Thanx again.
I think using color to represent "height" above the slice (bluer) and below the slice (red) could be a good idea. To allow people to see more easily how moving through the other two axis will change things.
I can see sooo many implementations of this its CRAZY. A detective who solves case by looking at other dimensions. A super stylised 3d platfomer. Apuzzle game that relies on going between the different dimensions. I just wish a dedicated studio could help you really expand on these ideas. Incredible stuff I love it!
...yes. yes. YES. I was kind of thinking about this in the back of my mind while watching your hyperbolica devlogs, and I'm super hyped to see where you end up with this, even if you just work on it a short period of time. I guess my main thought about why I want true 4d games to be a thing has always been that people going blind also develop amazing navigation and space comprehension abilities from their other senses, and people with a lot of exposure or even growing up with 4d games should be able to quickly get an intuition for 4d space itself, just as we are able to comprehend 3d space from our 2d vision
The best part about keeping it relatively simple is you could make a variety of 4d minigames. Think of your typical mini-games / flash games like mini-golf, pool, pinball, etc. You could make many of them with mostly level creation if the base game is made robust enough. Can't wait to see where you take these ideas
I’m imagining like a rendition of Nintendo’s Clubhouse Games/ Wii Sports. Players can challenge their friends to short rounds of 4D golf, 4D chess, 4D tanks, 4D baseball, 4D wrestling, 4D poker (?), 4D Parcheesi, 4D darts- you get the picture. Each one would be a fun development challenge to balance the dimensional extrusion while maintaining the fun of the reference game, without requiring any one thing to be overly complex
@@BrandNeutral Yea, thats the kind of thing I was talking about, it would be really awesome. Also 4d multiplayer minigames would be really interesting too people always talk about playing "4d chess", why not make it real :P
So if I understand correctly, when you walk into a wall, you "push" yourself into that 4th dimension, and the golf ball behave the same way. That means the golfing "area" is now 3d, right ?
@@CaptainWizard3000 Yeah. One of the scenes in 4D Toys explores this idea - there's an object that looks completely flat from any particular 3D slice, but it's actually a ramp that slopes into the 4th dimension, and hyperspheres will roll down it.
@@CodeParade So for the golf example, if we for simplicity, assume that the course is flat in Y/gravity axis, then it's like a 3D maze without gravity? You can only launch the ball along the plane of the two visible axis, but if the walls are not perpendicular, then it can bounce and travel in the "third" invisible axis of this gravityless 3D maze.
@@CodeParade This also makes me wonder how it would feel like if you had the 1st 2nd and 4th axis visible, while the gravity axis would be the invisible one. You'd have this 3D maze until you run into hills, then things would start morphing. Could be difficult for the camera view.
I really like the dimensional shadow system, 4D Miner is quite frustrating because the spider hide just slightly out of view in another dimension and this helps a lot.
Because the hyperspiders just run straight toward you without any pathfinding AI, running away from them for a bit (like, almost any distance if they're close enough to attack) coaxes them farther into your 3D slice. I'm expecting Mashpoe to implement hyperspider AI eventually, at which point this comment may be rendered incorrect. "Make the hyperspider approach you again" still has a good chance of making them put their bodies into your 3D slice considering the game imbalance that would be introduced by having hostile wildlife _strategically_ staying out of your field of view while your ability to track them is limited to clumsily rotating your 3D slice and hoping you guessed the right direction.
@@awfuldynne Oh yeah I know why it's doing it, and like you say it's a bit weird since AI that makes them more visible to the player would be them acting even more stupid then going in a straight line. AI that is actively hiding from the player sounds cool, but even more painful. If I remember correctly he has an item in the game that lets you see items and mobs that aren't currently in your slice, but the dimensional shadow in this video seems like a much better way to have it and makes sense not to need an item for it.
I didn’t know it until now, but this is exactly how I like to imagine 4D space when I am thinking about it’s mechanics, really looking forward to hearing and seeing more!
Typically 4th Dimensional worlds are seen as incredibly complex and strange. While they certainly are in some ways, I think this provides an amazing example of what seeing in 4-D would probably actually be like. This makes more sense than how I've seen it in many other situations, and I honestly appreciate the simplicity of it. Thank you for expanding my imagination, this is awesome.
I've always wanted to see a game that used a camera projection that covered a complete view of everything around you, might work well for a 4Dgame since it sort of gives you a "3D" camera
That might not be possible. Remember, we can't see a whole 3D object at once, and I think the people in the 4th dimension have 3D cameras, and 3D paper too. If we made those in real life, it might be hard to see everything going on. You may have to move around it in order to see each thing in the game.
to show the full 4D world, you can also use color gradients. For example, the more red something gets the farther along one axis it is, and the more violet something is, the farther it is in the other direction additionally, brightness and saturation can be messed with, and like you already have, so can opacity. Additionally, something 4d miner’s 4d glasses do is it messes with size the farther 4Dward an object is relative to you ive been wanting a truly 4d game for a while, one where you can still see the whole world, so im glad someone’s making this
Cool concept! As a Hyperbolica player one thing I'd like to see in the new game is for the player to be immersed in the game from the get go - no lengthy intro, just core game-play.
I have vague recollection of playing a 4D first person space ship shooter that used transparency to indicate alignment with other ships along the 4th axis. And normal rendering for the other 3, of course. I also recall there being far more degrees of freedom than was practical to control at once.
could moving the 4d rotation into the nearest predefined point be useful for some games? it would help the player get around by guiding them in the right direction
Probably a button to reset the extra rotation to identity orientation could be a great start. That way players can muscle memorize which movements got them where.
Could be really helpful. I found 4D Miner a lot more accessible once I learned the camera reset keys. They let me keep oriented and keep track of where I'd come from. This also suggests to me a slightly different idea: what about moving your view between predefined entire camera views, like in some of the Myst-style games? You get to animate moving through a full-dimensional environment, but you can make sure the player always has good camera angles to see the actual game elements.
as someone who's expertise comes from watching UA-cam videos, I wanna point out that this looks great and tough to do, but there should definitely be a form of verticality in the 3rd dimension - otherwise the game may operate and be coded like a 4d game, but will play and feel like a 3d puzzle game.
I've had the idea of a 4D plat former with a 3D camera, you can then freely "move" around in your 3D "view". Something like that might be even closer to how a 4D creature would experience the world, being able to do think like look inside a 3D room.
I've been thinking about this on and off for the last year, without the skill to actually implement any of it! It's so awesome to see a proper visualization of this and not sketches on pieces of A4. Your work is awesome, and I'm constantly inspired by your videos! Edit: Wow, the comment section is full of similar discussion!
Using opacity as a dimension? That's kinda genius. One problem: This way you can tell the distance but not the direction, maybe you can map the direction on a color map?
1:43 I once played Half-Life with a single-pixel-in-height window, which acted like a 1D camera, it was a cool experience, though I didn't get farther than the first few headcrabs and zombies before getting stuck in a room
This is so fucking cool. To maximize the ability to see outside of your camera’s view with the transparency, I think a high contrast, minimalist platformer would be /really/ cool. I would way rather jump around a fall off of things than play mini golf. It could still be a pretty simple game I think, the 4d navigation would pose a lot of the challenge for free
This seems so cool, i really like the idea too of putting these kinds of things on VR, as it tends to make it more life like and grasping onto the concept seems easier
![4D Golf - [Old Trailer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ad9y0FmQ9g/mqdefault.jpg)
![4D Golf - [Old Trailer]](/img/tr.png)
This guy has no limit to how crazy his game development can get.
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The translucent projection onto the camera plane is GENIUS. I've seen so many explanations about 4D space, but only now has it really clicked for me. The "slice" method does tell you how it works on a theoretical level, but cutting out the middleman by projecting 4D to a 2D camera (instead of taking a 3D slice) makes it sooo much more intuitive.
@person it's the second one and yes you can directly project 4d onto a 2d camera, it's still pretty similar to the 3d slice example if you think about it but you actually get full control of a camera in 4d with 4 of the 6 degrees of motion
@person He does slice. But he also projects. And it's pretty cool cause you see more information about a 4d oject than from just a slice.
@person it's possible for a diffirent eye. Our eyes take light projections through a 2d hole. But a 360 lidar reads an information from around it. An x-ray takes a cumulaive 3d data about the object. A scanner takes information from the whole space. So if we change an eye for something that can take that information it would be possible.
"... why dont we just render it anyway?"
Was a thought i had when i was first introduced to 4D space concepts, and im glad someone out there can put it to practice
@person No, it is physically impossible to actually see a 4d scene, so instead we can project it onto a 2D plane so we can see part of it.
Hyper mini-golf sounds like a pretty fun idea! Even if the game isn’t going to be huge, I’m sure it will still be really fun
Just add a simultaneous multiplayer option like other crazy mini golf games and you will have a decent shot at getting some youtube traction with it. And since it's not a story based game it should mostly just assist sales.
This can be called "How would it be like if a great dimensional wizard/witch who lives between dimensions plays golf".
I can just imagine mark, bob and wayde playing it rn lmao
@@Sylfa The Steam-page currently says both Shared/Splitscreen PVP as well as Remote Play Together
"I don't really want another multi-year project right now, so this will probably be a relatively short and minimalist game that I just spend a couple months on and release".
A tale as old as indie games, haha. I'm looking forward to seeing the amazing thing this becomes over the next year or two! Or, if you're someone who can actually pull off a "quick side project", I'll be impressed by that as well.
A tale as old as time. Nothing ever ends that simply. I remember thinking my first project was gonna be like that
actually it is possible for this to be one of those things where it starts as a side project but is updated over a longer period of time with many updates.
Lol, here we are 15 months later, but he's getting there now and the game looks awesome so cool
It will be 21 months from this video to the release
You called it, can't wait for the release!
i can't wait to play golf in a 4D universe! They aren't golfballs, they're golfhyperspheres.
The ball is a 600-cell 😉
Well i ilike hypercubes!
ah yes, playing with hyper balls
theyre still "balls" because theyre part of the series of "n-balls" (n-dimensional filled-in sphere-analogues) so still golfballs :-)
Hello
YES! FINALLY! Someone made the sliding part of the 4th dimension! I was saying this for so long, if a 3d person holds a 4d hypersphere, its just going to slide out! Same in this game with sliding along 4d walls
Oh I didn't think about it like that... it's basically impossible for a 3d object to cup a 4d object... You'd just be balancing it like a ball on a plane even if you could move through the 4th dimension
Also balancing a 4d ball on a flat 3d box in 4d space actually sounds like a good game idea.
You could play with just twin thumbsticks
Holy shit this is blowing my mind
@@ArtamisBot There's a mind bending puzzle game in that line of thinking.
For the next game CodeParade makes: "So yeah, I wanted to take a breather try something simple for my next game: using non-euclidean geometry in a 4D world, nothing too out there. Should take me about half a year or so; see you then."
But seriously man, great job so far! I look forward to seeing the progress on this one. 4D minigolf is such a cool idea!
"Im thinking about a quantum tunneling shooter, maybe with some gravity loop theory spread onto bullet kinetics. Nothing too crazy."
Combining his 4D and non-euclidean engines into one brain-bensing spacial nightmare would either be easy or exponentially harder, depending on how compatible the math is and whether that f*ks up either component's UX.
Nah it's just gonna be straight up 5d next
Give me a game in spherical 4D space
@@k-marketmuotiala4801 5+1D projected onto a 2D camera sound like a nightmare
Imagine playing catch or hide-and-seek in this, it would be hilarious
It can be a great idea for a 4D game.
4D prop-hunt will be crasy
I rememberthe good old days molded world at war prop hunt.
"Hah! I found you!"
*hider proceeds to morph into a wall and dissappears*
The huge enormous mind bending moment of moving the camera in the other two planes is glorious.
I had a realization. This engine uses "sliding" through the other dimensions when you encounter a wall. But I've always envisioned that you would be able to see and phase through objects. Then it hit me, It would be BOTH. In the same way that the third dimensions adds pitch and yall, the fourth dimension would add phasing and sliding. And objects would be a combination of both.
yaw*
This is a very cool idea, thanks for sharing!
The new degrees of freedom are usually called "reeling" and "twirling".
Reeling changes which direction you are facing, similar to yaw. Twirling is similar to roll, as it doesn't change where you are facing, however twirling doesn't make you "fall over" like rolling would, because it doesn't change which direction is "up".
@@Adam-zt4cn twirling really hates my brain. fun fact, you can switch which directions are left and right by twirling. So you can't just tell a four dimensional being to turn left, you also have to tell them another direction to orient themselves towards.
enjoyed this over tea from my nemo mug! cant wait to play 4d minigolf or whatever becomes of this >:D
Oh wow. I love the shadow feature, I haven't seen that before in any style of game where the play-field is working in a higher dimension than what the camera can see.
And the 4d golf game sounds really fun.
This is something I always wanted to explore. I also never understood why all "4D" games use this roundabout slicing method instead of just projecting the 4D space onto a 2D plane like we do in 3D games. For some reason people have a misguided way of thinking about this subject. Almost every time someone uses the flatlander analogy they say something like "The flatlander sees 2D objects, whereas we see 3D objects", which always bothers me, because - as you correctly stated in this video - the flatlander really sees 1D objects and we see 2D objects. We can't see the backside of things, we can't see through walls etc. So we already do not see the whole 3D shape. This isn't even something specific to higher dimensions, we experience this every day in our life. But seeing a 2D image is not the same as seeing 2D slices of our world. Taking a 3D slice of a 4D world and then projecting that onto a 2D screen is so unnatural, I don't think one can build any intuition from that. If we had to interact with a 3D world in that way, we would be just as confused.
I kind of get it, as 3d slices is exactly how you, a human with 3d eyeballs would perceive a 4 dimensional space, but it doesn't help that much with understanding it.
@@jetison333 we don't really have 3D eyeballs though. We see via our retinas which are 2D. We just see 2 2D images at once from slightly different angles so our brains can interpret depth. Projecting a 4D world onto a 3D slice would only help us to understand it if it were in VR, so each eye could see something slightly different to perceive depth. When it's on a screen, from a 1 point perspective, it makes much more sense to see a 2D image because... screens are inherently 2D.
You are literally wrong. This game uses the exact same slicing method as 4D miner so y’all have no idea what you’re talking about.
Bro's gonna break the fabric of the universe just to make this
The idea of playing around in 4d space is so exciting. From the demo, it looks like you've implemented it really well. Psyched to see what you come up with!
Says he isn't going to implement slices and then just reimplemebt slices 🙄
@@TherealLaserdog Yeah it did look a bit slicey, pretty much right after he said that as well 😂
@@angledcoathanger His game looks pretty different from the games he brought up. He wanted to avoid making the 3D equivalent of Fez, and he succeeded in my opinion.
@Sebastian well you’re “opinion” is wrong. He used the exact same method as 4D miner and all other games.
Thanks for the flat lander explanation, this makes so much more sense than the usual slice explanation.
I have literally had this idea and you beat me to it. It makes so much sense! It's just like 3D glasses- instead of seeing a 2D picture and trying to imagine 3D, you see several 2D pictures and your brain automatically understands it as 3D. Except in this case, it's 4D! Rotations are still kinda tough for me to wrap my head around, but isometrically and orthographically just sliding a 3D slice through with transparent edges in the fourth dimension has helped me understand 4D SO much better.
Ok here me out. Use math to predict what the 4d space would look like to a 3d camera, and then see that 3d image by using 3d glasses.
I think that mini golf is a extremely unique gameplay mechanic to have in 4D and would absolutely be a perfect way to introduce the concept of 4D space. Brilliant idea.
FINALLY, someone made a 4D game where you have all the info
The faded projection thing is an excellent idea, it provides vital context to the object you're looking at meaning you don't have to scroll through the entire slice. Can't wait to see where this goes!
That transparency idea is genius! It makes things so much more understandable and really does the best job I've ever seen of really expanding your FOV into the 4th dimension
When you slided by the wall and it just made sense... can't wait for the golf game to be released.
Really interesting video! I've seen many implementations but yours seems the most intuitive, and I especially like the 3D shadows cast by the 4D objects
gonna be honest, so much of this little demo made it into the game in the end. honestly i really love how such a good idea it was to become such a strong foundation, and genuinely impressed how smooth this concept can fade into completed idea, at least on the level of presentation. its certainty cleaned up a ton with the game.
Super neat! This is still using slices, basically the same as 4D miner I think. But the transparency innovation makes it a lot closer to a volumetric view.
In true volumetric view you’d have the 4D stuff projected to a volumetric plane (a 3D display) and have that projected to the screen (a 2D display). Your display would be a cube or rectangular prism and the center coordinate is the “middle” of the screen, and there are up/down and the four relative horizontal directions: left right ana and kata.
I *think* what you’re doing amounts to taking that volumetric view and squishing it along one of the horizontal directions, so actually this is very close to volumetric without requiring the user to be able to parse a 3D plane of information. So actually yeah this is really cool! What might also be neat is to then blueshift things to your ana and redshift things to your kata. Or make the game stereoscopic and *only* display geometry to your ana in one eye and geometry to your kata in the other eye (have the user cross their eyes or use a VR headset).
I wonder if this method works well with lots of geometry or if it gets confusing. Anyway I’m looking forward to it!
Nice implementation of viewing more distant objects in the 4th dimension. This way we can actually visualize what it would be like to have a 3D object offsets in the 4th dimension or even some 4D objects
Yes!! I've been wanting to see a 4D game with semi-transparent projections since I was in high school :D
video games are like a crazy perfect mechanism by which to explore 4d space. love what you're doing, bringing these concepts to a larger audience so it can be further expanded upon
Minigolf is a cool idea but since normal minigolf is in 2 dimensions the gameplay in this game will be in a mundane 3 dimensions. I feel like this version of minigolf would be better represented as a golfball floating in a 3D volume. I think a fundamentally 3D game would better suit going into higher dimensions
I don't know I think it could be fine as is, but I agree.
it's kinda interesting, bc. that means you can graph the position in (w,x,y) 3d space, so I imagine that you can put a little cube with an outline of the golf course in the GUI as the minimap
Mini golf isn't (extrinsic) 2 dimensions if you want to include hills. It would only be 2 dimensions if it were flat.
Idk what kind of minigolf you've been playing that is strictly 2D in movement complexity. I've seen a lot of minigolf places where you gotta aim jumps and travel vertical sections, and then there are digital minigolf games have you do all sorts of whacky 3D antics as well.
Maybe an idea would be some kind of space shooter or plane flying simulator? Though these are already not easy to control in 3 dimensions and you probably would have to provide controls for the 4 extra rotation axes as well. Maybe someone else could also build something like this on top of the open source engine that will hopefully be released together with this game.
Fez wasn't a 2D slice of the 3D world, it was a projection of the 3D world into a 2D plane. If it was a slice then the puzzles wouldn't have been solvable as it relied on the projection bringing areas far away in 3D being made much closer.
As an (almost) mathematician, slicing is the way I think about higher dimensions, except for rare occasions. Your concept for the game is super cool, can't wait to play it!
I love your approach to this topic. Also my brain got fried trying to follow the footage.
The "shadow" projection is pure genius. It actually works very well, might even be be something you could work with. I could see a world in which you could control in the 4 dimensions at once.
It could be interesting to see whether that can be done. We are used to projecting 2D controls onto 3D movement, I wonder if it'd be possible to project unified 3D controls into 4d space. Maybe using a hand tracker or something like that.
Oh my god your brain is awesome. thank you so much for your work. your contributions are on the edge of explorations.
I've been following the 4d miner development, so I had an idea of what you might be going for, but I can not *explain* my excitement when you started talking about the slice method and want to go beyond it.
The transparency was absolute Genius!!!
The entire 4D thing still is very hard to understand, but this is by far the best way to visualize in a immersive way.
Amazing work!!
2:22 Wait a second
In the book Flatland, isn't there an ever-present fog that essentially does this? It helps the Flatlanders distinguish between shapes without needed to touch!
Did they need an ever-present fog though? Just give all of your creatures two eyes lol.
@@Anonymous-df8it Iirc all of the flatland shapes were cyclopes. And the women were lined with a mouth and an eye at one end so probably not a lot of room for them to have two eyes.
@@willphoenix5464 Couldn't they add a second eye on the other side of the mouth?
I've thought about a 4D game that worked using opacity for so long I'm so glad to see someone actually doing it!
This was the first video in my home feed today and it made me so happy!
This is the best implementation of 4d I've ever seen. Just seeing the 3d shadow of the "sphere floating" it's demonstrating the potential of this approach.
Great work. Looking forward to the next one
You’re a legend, an icon, and you are the moment
4D minigolf looks super fun! with a bit of 4D scenery it will be awesome!
5D game next?
6D next
@@Ric3cir121 69D next? 😳
I think he will prove the string theory and bring us to the 11th dimension of the univy
There has been 2d and 3d games, 4d games being developed and even a 1d game demo. What if someone were to make a 0d game
@@hxgonic how should i play it?
"It's very early in development right now, so I could end up doing something completely different."
I'm glad that they kept with the mini golf idea.
When you had to move around in the 4th dimension to even be able to see the hole, that was so cool!
Ooo! Let's spitball some names!
- Aces In 4D Spaces
- Tesseractive Golf
- Fore-D
I know I could think of more if I knew more about a) golf and b) fourth dimensional space.
"i'll probably just spend a couple months on this, i dont want it to be as big as hyperbolica"
Thinking the same thing
What do you mean 21 months are more than a couple? xD
A 4D minigolf game where it's partially a puzzle game about finding the hole on a 4D object would be super neat. Excited to see what you can do with it.
This is honestly the best way to render 4d i’ve every seen, it’s trippy and wouldn’t really work on high def objects, but it gets the point across
Maybe you can put dimensional spin on the ball, in later stages?
The idea of the ball travelling more actively through 4d space is really interesting!
More devlogs? Please, they are always fun to watch
this man has explained visualizing a 4d space... with actual visuals... I CANT EXPLAIN HOW COOL I FIND THE CONCEPT OF EVEN BEING ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE VIEWING A 4D SPACE IN REAL TIME. AND HES USING IT TO PLAY MINIGOLF I- i love this world and how far we've come
Guess it's hard to get a first person view of 4D because our minds literally cannot comprehend it completely, so you have to make some adjustments for it to make sense
I'm fascinated by this kind of stuff, I mean "hypercube" is literally in my name lol
I love you. You're achieving everything I ever wanted to achieve, & you're laying the groundwork for my own game to be perceived as almost mundane. I'm tired of being the most bizarre game maker, on other timeliness. I think I came back to the past to start over, with a more simple, at one with the universe vibe. Thank you for easing my transition into becoming a creator. In my first worlds, I never noticed your games. I have to give my retrocausal life travel some meaning, to make it worth all the suffering... discovering new creators who are building the stepping stones I will use to reach my own goals is one such worthwhile meaning. Thanx again.
I think using color to represent "height" above the slice (bluer) and below the slice (red) could be a good idea. To allow people to see more easily how moving through the other two axis will change things.
I can see sooo many implementations of this its CRAZY. A detective who solves case by looking at other dimensions. A super stylised 3d platfomer. Apuzzle game that relies on going between the different dimensions. I just wish a dedicated studio could help you really expand on these ideas. Incredible stuff I love it!
...yes. yes. YES. I was kind of thinking about this in the back of my mind while watching your hyperbolica devlogs, and I'm super hyped to see where you end up with this, even if you just work on it a short period of time. I guess my main thought about why I want true 4d games to be a thing has always been that people going blind also develop amazing navigation and space comprehension abilities from their other senses, and people with a lot of exposure or even growing up with 4d games should be able to quickly get an intuition for 4d space itself, just as we are able to comprehend 3d space from our 2d vision
The best part about keeping it relatively simple is you could make a variety of 4d minigames. Think of your typical mini-games / flash games like mini-golf, pool, pinball, etc. You could make many of them with mostly level creation if the base game is made robust enough. Can't wait to see where you take these ideas
I’m imagining like a rendition of Nintendo’s Clubhouse Games/ Wii Sports. Players can challenge their friends to short rounds of 4D golf, 4D chess, 4D tanks, 4D baseball, 4D wrestling, 4D poker (?), 4D Parcheesi, 4D darts- you get the picture. Each one would be a fun development challenge to balance the dimensional extrusion while maintaining the fun of the reference game, without requiring any one thing to be overly complex
@@BrandNeutral Yea, thats the kind of thing I was talking about, it would be really awesome. Also 4d multiplayer minigames would be really interesting too
people always talk about playing "4d chess", why not make it real :P
So if I understand correctly, when you walk into a wall, you "push" yourself into that 4th dimension, and the golf ball behave the same way. That means the golfing "area" is now 3d, right ?
Yes, all "surfaces" in 4D are topologically 3D.
So you could have hills that “look” flat? (Sorry if this is a dumb question, I’m still trying to wrap my head around this)
@@CaptainWizard3000 Yeah. One of the scenes in 4D Toys explores this idea - there's an object that looks completely flat from any particular 3D slice, but it's actually a ramp that slopes into the 4th dimension, and hyperspheres will roll down it.
@@CodeParade So for the golf example, if we for simplicity, assume that the course is flat in Y/gravity axis, then it's like a 3D maze without gravity? You can only launch the ball along the plane of the two visible axis, but if the walls are not perpendicular, then it can bounce and travel in the "third" invisible axis of this gravityless 3D maze.
@@CodeParade This also makes me wonder how it would feel like if you had the 1st 2nd and 4th axis visible, while the gravity axis would be the invisible one. You'd have this 3D maze until you run into hills, then things would start morphing. Could be difficult for the camera view.
I'd love a 4D Portal-esque puzzle game! Either way, I'll happily show it off on my channel!
I really like the dimensional shadow system, 4D Miner is quite frustrating because the spider hide just slightly out of view in another dimension and this helps a lot.
Because the hyperspiders just run straight toward you without any pathfinding AI, running away from them for a bit (like, almost any distance if they're close enough to attack) coaxes them farther into your 3D slice.
I'm expecting Mashpoe to implement hyperspider AI eventually, at which point this comment may be rendered incorrect. "Make the hyperspider approach you again" still has a good chance of making them put their bodies into your 3D slice considering the game imbalance that would be introduced by having hostile wildlife _strategically_ staying out of your field of view while your ability to track them is limited to clumsily rotating your 3D slice and hoping you guessed the right direction.
@@awfuldynne Oh yeah I know why it's doing it, and like you say it's a bit weird since AI that makes them more visible to the player would be them acting even more stupid then going in a straight line.
AI that is actively hiding from the player sounds cool, but even more painful. If I remember correctly he has an item in the game that lets you see items and mobs that aren't currently in your slice, but the dimensional shadow in this video seems like a much better way to have it and makes sense not to need an item for it.
Really cool, having projections of what is near you in 4th dimension is probably the best way to visualise 4d space!
You are really just making games for all my favorite math subjects.
Wow that faded visual idea really smart
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with
Ok, the shadow idea is genius
This is a masterpiece just for the incredibly good way you find out to make a new point of view of the 4th dimension
3:50 I noticed here on the right that because you essentially have a 4d cone all of its cross sections are 3d conics!
I didn’t know it until now, but this is exactly how I like to imagine 4D space when I am thinking about it’s mechanics, really looking forward to hearing and seeing more!
he managed to bend space, now he can add another dimension.
Our brother here is a revolutionary game designer. Thank you and your beautiful mind 🙏
I hope that you are remembered as being the innovator who finally put two and two together: 4d shadows is f*cking brilliant for playability.
Typically 4th Dimensional worlds are seen as incredibly complex and strange. While they certainly are in some ways, I think this provides an amazing example of what seeing in 4-D would probably actually be like. This makes more sense than how I've seen it in many other situations, and I honestly appreciate the simplicity of it.
Thank you for expanding my imagination, this is awesome.
A golf game is a good idea.
Level by level games that use the geometry of the game to make it interactive is exactly what Hyperbolica was missing.
sbsbdbd genius finally visualizating what a 4D space looks like intuitively
Wow it looks amazing! So much potantial for the gaming scene.
4D beings looking at us like "Crap, they getting smart on us"
I've always wanted to see a game that used a camera projection that covered a complete view of everything around you, might work well for a 4Dgame since it sort of gives you a "3D" camera
So it's like Quake 3 with cg_fov set to 360 🧐 Never tried it, sound very fun. I've found a video "Breaking the FOV limit in Quake"
That might not be possible. Remember, we can't see a whole 3D object at once, and I think the people
in the 4th dimension have 3D cameras, and 3D paper too. If we made those in real life, it might be hard
to see everything going on. You may have to move around it in order to see each thing in the game.
to show the full 4D world, you can also use color gradients. For example, the more red something gets the farther along one axis it is, and the more violet something is, the farther it is in the other direction
additionally, brightness and saturation can be messed with, and like you already have, so can opacity. Additionally, something 4d miner’s 4d glasses do is it messes with size the farther 4Dward an object is relative to you
ive been wanting a truly 4d game for a while, one where you can still see the whole world, so im glad someone’s making this
“I don’t want a multi-year project” 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
Cool concept! As a Hyperbolica player one thing I'd like to see in the new game is for the player to be immersed in the game from the get go - no lengthy intro, just core game-play.
I have vague recollection of playing a 4D first person space ship shooter that used transparency to indicate alignment with other ships along the 4th axis. And normal rendering for the other 3, of course. I also recall there being far more degrees of freedom than was practical to control at once.
I think you might be thinking of the game which was iirc called Adanaxis (add an axis)
@@drdca8263 I think you’re right.
This is a spectacular way of visualizing 4D space, great work!
could moving the 4d rotation into the nearest predefined point be useful for some games?
it would help the player get around by guiding them in the right direction
Probably a button to reset the extra rotation to identity orientation could be a great start.
That way players can muscle memorize which movements got them where.
Could be really helpful. I found 4D Miner a lot more accessible once I learned the camera reset keys. They let me keep oriented and keep track of where I'd come from.
This also suggests to me a slightly different idea: what about moving your view between predefined entire camera views, like in some of the Myst-style games? You get to animate moving through a full-dimensional environment, but you can make sure the player always has good camera angles to see the actual game elements.
really proves the whole thing about "the only limitations of what you can code are what your brain comes up with"
Marble madness in 4D would be interesting! 🤯🤯🤯😎😎😎😎
as someone who's expertise comes from watching UA-cam videos, I wanna point out that this looks great and tough to do, but there should definitely be a form of verticality in the 3rd dimension - otherwise the game may operate and be coded like a 4d game, but will play and feel like a 3d puzzle game.
Yes there will be, only the first few levels are completely flat, and that's just so you can get used to the controls.
Doesn't want to use slicing.. uses slicing with shadows.
Looks super awesome to play with though, looking forward to seeing how it progresses
I've had the idea of a 4D plat former with a 3D camera, you can then freely "move" around in your 3D "view". Something like that might be even closer to how a 4D creature would experience the world, being able to do think like look inside a 3D room.
I was just thinking about that! It would be so difficult to actually navigate around tho
This man can simply create beauty with his codes. This is a complete game changer on EVERYTHING.
Fun fact, there is some people Who studies These dimension to understand more about the fourth dimension And could make The Fourth dimension a thing
Flabbergasting. What's next, 4D hyperbolic space?
Oh good lord my brain can't handle this.
Extremely impressive!
I've been thinking about this on and off for the last year, without the skill to actually implement any of it! It's so awesome to see a proper visualization of this and not sketches on pieces of A4. Your work is awesome, and I'm constantly inspired by your videos!
Edit: Wow, the comment section is full of similar discussion!
Using opacity as a dimension? That's kinda genius. One problem: This way you can tell the distance but not the direction, maybe you can map the direction on a color map?
I've been thinking about this implementation with transparent projection. Glad to see someone actually working on such an experience!
1:43 I once played Half-Life with a single-pixel-in-height window, which acted like a 1D camera, it was a cool experience, though I didn't get farther than the first few headcrabs and zombies before getting stuck in a room
Can't wait for the inevitable hyperbolic 4D game.
I played the demo of 4D Miner. It was hard to control but I liked the idea
This is so fucking cool. To maximize the ability to see outside of your camera’s view with the transparency, I think a high contrast, minimalist platformer would be /really/ cool. I would way rather jump around a fall off of things than play mini golf. It could still be a pretty simple game I think, the 4d navigation would pose a lot of the challenge for free
This seems so cool, i really like the idea too of putting these kinds of things on VR, as it tends to make it more life like and grasping onto the concept seems easier
I would get an Oculus quest just for this game if I could afford one. I wonder if they're cheap on eBay.