Should Conservatives Stay?
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- Friends, I felt like I needed to comment a bit on the predicament of those with a biblical fidelity who are still within the UMC. I have had a series of conversations with people representing different positions on this question. I wanted to make clear where I stand, and to give encouragement to those of you who aren't sure how to navigate these things. I hope this offering of mine gives some clarity. God bless you and your churches.
Interview with Randy Frye:
• Conservatives Living i...
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I cannot fathom attending a denominational meeting and having to call apostates "brother", and act as if we are on the same level spiritually. When they have seized control on every level it's time to proclaim them Anathema and get out.
I wish I didn't have to "like" this video, but you're telling us the truth, brother. I'm so torn, as my local congregation in general is committed to worshiping the one true God, but when our money goes to fund things that are so blatantly wrong and evil, it's hard to imagine remaining.
First of all, thank you for this dimension of your ministry. I have been watching and thinking with you for almost two years now. I was raised in a rural E.U.B. congregation. I graduated from an E.U.B. college. I was a young man when the merger to form the United Methodist Church took place. As I have lived in different communities around the U.S.A., my family has always joined and been active in whatever our local UM congregation was. I would describe myself as traditional and conservative. I believe that is one of the problems people like me have. Being traditional, we look to scripture as the authoritative word of God and the guide for our daily living. We understand the fallen nature of humans, the need for redemption, the necessity of an intentional program of living a sanctified way, and putting our own house in order so that we can effectively make disciples of others. As conservatives, we play by the rules. When the leadership of the UMC adopted the "Big Tent" philosophy, these values were compromised. Our present Bishop Bigham-Tsai says "It's not important that we agreed on who Christ is." In 2020 Bishop Thomas Bickerton flatly stated that the progressive elites with their hands on the levers of power were going to run things. In both theological and in church governance, the elites in leadership abandoned the flock to pursue the worldly culture. The present pastor at our local UMC Church preaches more from contemporary literature than from the Bible. When the time came for discussion on disaffiliation, both she and the district superintendent shut down the discussion using Randy Frye's argument that "nothing has changed, and the time may be down the road in the future". Now that congregation is trapped. My wife and I formally withdrew our membership the week after General Conference. Our local pastor still says from the pulpit that nothing has changed. After decades of teaching Sunday School, serving in capacities such as Sunday School Superintendent, Lay Leader, Administrative Board Chairman, Administrative Board Secretary, we are pilgrims in search of a church home. We are broken hearted over the destruction of the UMC by its leadership. My wife and I have to fight a sense of bitterness because at this stage of our lives, the church we gave so much of our life to has abandoned us.
FWIW, I don’t think that Tom’s mom and dad, Jim and Marlene would have been comfortable with the direction that their son has taken the church. They were such faithful and kind people. He grew up two rows behind me in our home church and I even delivered newspapers to the family down the street from our houses both on Poplar Avenue.
We need to follow the Lord and the scripture and the faith not the world.
The church has abandoned the holiness call that the people who were first called Methodical and Methodists were focused upon by John and Charles Wesley.
I find it very sad. But we need to be more careful about being Christian than being Methodist.
The churches that I pastored and the seminaries that I attended were not following Jesus Christ.
My opinion.
There are MANY FAITHFUL FANTASTIC FAMILIES who are still in the UMC.
But they see the acceptance of sins and the lack of a call for faithfulness. 🙏🙏🙏
Can you find a Gmc church in your area? If not, try to find a Nazarene Church.
Sounds exactly like our pastor. And now that our congregation has seen the light and are in the works of departure from the UMC he is very offended and making us out to be the sinful ones.
@@jimelliott6200 There is not a GMC church in our area. However, there is a former UMC congregation that disaffiliated rather early in the process that is not too far away and we have been attending there. For the time being they did not want to join the GMC because they wanted to see with more certainty what the GMC will actually be. The church is being served by a recently retired UMC pastor and three people who were certified lay speakers. This team of four also is pulpit supply for a couple other churches that have become unaffiliated. They are all good people with a Wesleyan background. For the time being, my wife and I are attending and tithing, but have no formally joined the congregation because we want to see how this situation will play out. When I make a promise before God, I intend to keep it.
@@terrypolen4241 I can't understand what motivated Tom and most of the current crop of bishops to embrace this "big tent" approach and compromise the Wesleyan tradition of working daily on personal sanctification. Jesus said the way is narrow. John Wesley would sometimes tell a third of the membership of some of his congregations that they could not be part of the fellowship because of their lack of commitment to living righteously. With the experience of other mainline denominations that compromised with the culture and embraced the LGBTQ agenda, I feel the UMC leadership is guilty of poor stewardship of the denomination entrusted to them. Surely they could see that such a direction is not bringing more people to be disciples of Christ. Quite the opposite.
More than fifty years ago when I was a graduate student at Duke, my wife and I attended services at Duke Chapel and each week heard sermons from those in leadership at the Duke Divinity School. It was clear then that there was much more emphasis on social activism that personal righteousness. It was a college church and I was not surprised at how liberal it was. What Duke Divinity School has become makes that long ago experience seem centrist. And today there is no Dean or anyone in authority who wants to even tap the brakes a little as they drive the institution into the ditch.
Our church has two families who have joined from a UMC church. I have learned that the Gainesville UMC in the North Georgia conference had over 200 members walk out after the General Conference and they intend to set up a Global Methodist Church.
Having been a lifelong Methodist for 60+ years, it is hard to leave. There don't seem to be a lot of choices of churches to attend and congregations are being told that nothing will change. That being said, I have left the UMC and am looking for a church. I am visiting a Congregational Methodist church. Thank you for your perspective.
I am praying for you as you search for a new church home. Keep the faith. Run the race. Stay steadfast. May God bless you.
@@nobletownship4977 Thanks for the encouragement, I know you are in about the same place.
I think my church has missed the boat, and now is the right time for me to walk away on my own and begin a search for another place to worship.
❤
My prayers are for you as you search for a new church home. May God bless you and keep you.
Ditto @amypatton6730
Same 💔😢. I don’t want to leave my people, many of whom I grew up with. But I can’t stay ultimately.
I have used Wesley's sermon on schism when speaking with my church on the topics as reason we had not yet hit a point to justify leaving, however discernment has reached the point where the following clause has come true.
"In like manner, if I could not continue united to any smaller society, Church, or body of Christians, without committing sin, without lying and hypocrisy, without preaching to others doctrines which I did not myself believe, I should be under an absolute necessity of separating from that society. And in all these cases the sin of separation, with all the evils consequent upon it, would not lie upon it, would not lie upon me, but upon those who constrained me to make that separation, by requiring of me such terms of communion as I could not in conscience comply with."
I hoped the UMC would leave room in more than words, but it has not felt to be the case. No acknowledgement of the pain felt, but only revelry in the new denial of God's word.
You explained it so well. Our Pastor’s conscience has been “seered”. He is a retired UMC pastor who is our part time minister. He has not been truthful with us or himself. Our congregation has finally seen the light and he looks upon us as the unloving and sinful.
Well put. I am glad that you have the gift of explanation. It could be that you have been set as the Watchman to warn the church. May God bless your work for him.
I’m pretty certain that Rev. Randy Frye led a camping week I attended at Buffalo Mountain Camp in Johnson City, TN 45 years ago. 😊 It was great to see him again.
My thought is that Rev. Frye is now very close to retirement, has poured his entire adult life into the UMC, and cannot imagine leaving at this stage in his life. He will sadly go along to get along. My home church is not far away from Broad St. and taking a very similar stance. 😢
He will not let the ead bury the dead so he cannot follow Jesus and will be buried in his dead church.
Thank you Jeffrey. I couldn't agree more. Nicely said!
Great video brother! God bless you and your ministry! We need to expose the darkness!
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11
The analogy of abuse in a family is spot on. What bothers me is the children who are in these churches are being led down a primrose path. It hits close in my family.
Thank you for the view that you share. I agree.
My GMC church (we were in Holston conference) is growing and preparing to start a parents day out ministry. we recently received some (I’m calling them) UMC refugees who trusted their pastor and stayed until general conference which showed them it was too late. I feel so bad for them. They had invested thousands of dollars and 40 + years in a church that they are now having to leave.
We were in Holston also, NE tennessee. Now GMC. Our church is growing. I do think our Bishop is more conservative. She did not have the gloating speech after General Conference that many Bishops did. I wouldn’t be surprised if she “retired” and went to GMC after the next wave of churches get out….hope she does what she says to let churches out. I think she will try, but who knows.
Thank you for this shepherding.
I have been in a state of frustration regarding the need for Unity (especially with disorderly Walkers / LIBERALS).
2 COR:6 14-17 has saved my sanity.
Jeffrey ,
Thank you for calling out this two sets of books practice. I know we don’t see eye to eye on lots of things, but this is an opportunity you have taken to name a wrong doing even by a conservative. Much respect.
I'm glad to say something you approve of for the first time in a while. I hope to always be consistent in my application of Christian morality. Glad you see it.
Praying for Rev. Frye GODs peace and protection as he navigates this tragic situation. And praying for his flock that may also suffer from his strategy.
Yeah it was out of concern for flocks like his that I did this. I am really concerned about conservative leadership in the UMC that doesn't acknowledge the gravity of this situation. It'll cause a lot more heartache down the road...
It's all about the money. It was that way 20 years ago when I bailed out.
Truth.
Thank you for this video❤
Spot on analysis of the situation, thanks
Also of note: from the outside (GMC), those who stayed and put up with terrible things for decades, are the reason so many churches have been able to leave. So yes, disaffiliate if you can, start over from scratch if you can, but those who stood their ground for decades and then left with their churches, are not weaker than those who watched from the comforts of the outside.
Spot on.
People won’t leave the UMC unless they see a more faithful alternative. People won’t swap one big tent for another. The GMC needs to be clear, do they agree with a plain reading of scripture or not? If they do woman clergy, divorce and remarriage, and a whole host of other things must be clearly decided. If they don’t believe in a plain reading of scripture they are no better than the UMC.
“no better than the UMC” - in your black and white world, there is no white
Although, I thoroughly agree that, in general, we evangelicals need to divide, where possible, I think there is a place for pastors who are determined to stay and shepherd their conservative church through what is ahead. As a pastor I lay down my life for Christ, in part by laying down my life for the people of the church I serve - perhaps even if the church is not acting wisely.
Hi Jeffrey, thank you for all the information you put out. I want to share another YT channel I stumbled across called “Church History Stories”. The author there did a very good video explaining things that happened at the conference for simple laymen such as I. A video titled “Broken Legacy: United Methodist General Conference Explained” is an excellent 25 minute summary. That author also pointed out the million members from the Congo leaving the UMC.
To belong to a church you have to share a common set of beliefs with that church. When a church like UMC deteriorates to the point where the are no universal beliefs then you have to leave. I discovered 10 years ago that the pastor thought he could ignore the rules he did not like. But he expected me to follow the rules he liked. I have never regretted leaving for a minute.
Conservative churches should get out if they can under favourable terms. Conservative clergy and leaders should stay if they can in good conscience and have influence.
Conservative money should be earmarked for faithful projects.
There's a lot of great work being done regardless of the GC insanity so I can see why continuity in the congregations is valued. And timing is everything even though it's often in hindsight. But yes, there is the reality of the threat of the rainbow coalition. I'm not a Freudian but it's still clear that when motivations are fused with the impulses of sexuality and survival then there's no lack of energy in reserve. Another pride month is here and a great reminder of the fate of vulnerable institutions.
Thank you Jeffery for this video, as usual, excellent information! If the new UMC leadership is serious about their claim that they would not force a traditional church to have an openly gay pastor, then why did they change the language in Paragraph 425.1 of the BOD at 2024 GC to include sexual orientation? "Open itineracy means appointments are made without regard to race, ethnicity origin, gender, color, disability, marital status, sexual orientation, or age, except for the provisions of mandatory retirement. Annual conferences shall, in their training of staff-parish relations committees, emphasize the open nature of itineracy and prepare congregations to receive the gifts and graces of appointed clergy without regard to race, ethnicity origin, gender, color, disability, marital status, economic condition, sexual orientation, or age." 2024 BoD, 425.1
A little thing about the funding method that most do not know: Designated donations to non-profit organizations are not tax-deductible.
Let me be Frank. I've been a UMC pastor for 30+ years. Now retired. The problem has been with us since 1972. The main reason churches and members have not left the UMC is the blackmail of losing your building and assets. Unfortunately the love of buildings had caused this. Jesus didn't have a building. We don't need a building either. Move on. Godspeed.
Amen! There’s a lot of other things that the early church didn’t have either, nor the current persecuted churches today, yet, they both seem(ed) to be thriving despite this fact.
In the interview I did with Mark Tooley, he said the battle was already pretty much over in the early-20th century. Even so, the reluctance to leave isn't really very often (to my mind) primarily the love of the building so much as what the building represents. Folks want to honor the sacrifices of those who built and maintained these buildings out of love for Christ. To abandon them now to worldly folks feels rightly like a disrespecting of previous generations. Many who gave and built would be disappointed at how little some communities fought to keep these buildings in service of Christ. Now, if honoring the dead keeps us from following Christ, then we have chosen wrongly. But if we fight to honor the legacies of those who came before us, then I believe this is a good thing.
Churches have becoming impotent, saying "love love" but never carrying the cross...
In 10 years from now there will be no Biblical congregations left in the UMC.
Probably less time than that. 😢
Well. From an outsider... The regrouping is now mostly done for the UMC and in general Christianity, save for the Roman Catholic Church, which realignment is set to be done on the next 2 decades to come from now. In summary: On the "7 sisters of the US Mainstream Protestantism", the liberals have won and things won't return home to what they've ever been in the past. The UMC has been the last of those 7 sister Churches doing that realignment and now that is almost done. Surely there will be the odd court room case here or there, some Pastors will to get retired ASAP and some Parishes will eventually to merge or close their doors, but most of the transition is already done. So, now it is up to the remaining conservative Parishes to regroup the best possible way. At least up to those 7 sister Churches schisms, the UMC one was the most successful of them all. No surprise GMC will perhaps to be the unique one that will still be within us by 2050, perhaps absorbing some of the other ones in the process. That should be valued, even for progressives like me. Have a wonderful day!
Jeffrey,
Been listening to you for a while now and really appreciate what you are doing. Keep up the good work. I have a question for you concerning finances within the UMC and have not seen the answer anywhere. Is there a place where the monies generated for the UMC by the disaffiliating churches show up on the financial statements or reports generated at general conference or in the annual conferences themselves? Maybe they have a creative way to hide these figures from the public? It would be interesting to see the whole pie, so to speak. Have you found any reports that show these figures?
I think it really depends on the polity of the denomination. If there is a Congregational Polity stay for sure. If there is a Presbyterien form of government then it's worth a shot too.
However with "modified episcopal" polity (as in the UMC) I am not sure if you could succeed since they already took over the higher positions. And in a full Episcopal polity it's better to just separate. (edit: spelling)
Please pray for my church in Mississippi. They voted to stay in March but the process was awful. They had never talked about homosexuality before, either in the pulpit or administrative council, refused to shoot down rumors and false teachings (I personally witnessed an egregious moment of slander and misrepresenting the Scripture), and kept pushing the idea that there was no need to decide anything until after GC. They also didn't even properly discuss the GC changes with the congregation. No message, no directions for resources. Only a forwarded message from our Bishop that only addressed the sexuality changes for clergy. Almost every vote we took included the option to wait, and now they are stuck. About half the church has left since last summer, and our youth director and I are leaving in the next month. I've had multiple conversations with people who were fighting to stay for unity, only to now be rethinking it because the changes at the conference were more severe. Our leadership was giving false hopes, even as far as telling people "nothing is going to change" and "nothing has changed". They are blind
I wish your story wasn't as common as it is. The culture of the UMC has been largely informed by conflict avoidance and denial. Even when their backs are against the wall, they default to their status quo programming. It is undergirded by a sort of prosperity gospel theology that takes for granted that, if we believe and love, then God won't make us go through hard times, trials, times of loss. Trying to hold onto everything, they are going to lose...everything. Very sad.
"The Return Of The Gods" by Jonathan Cahn (2022) explains this pride of Babylon and how the world has gotten to the place that it is right now with its apo-stasis, apostasy, as we eagerly await the return of our pure Bridegroom Yahshua haMashiach: the LIGHT of the world. (The darkness cannot comprehend His purity.)
The book explained it so well that we bought copies for each of our 4 children and all of our closest friends.
May we come out of Babylon: Now! Lest we receive of her sins and her plagues. This second time that Babylon is falling ("Babylon is fallen, is fallen") she will never rise again. No longer will her voice be heard: Revelation 18:22
"At the noise of the taking of Babylon, the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations." Jeremiah 50:46
But yes, Jeffrey is accurately calling what needs to be done now.
Should Conservatives Stay?
Respectfully, if they should, then why did I leave?
Paragraph 2553 required that if by "conscience" a church disagreed with the 2019 Discipline regarding homosexuality or how it's Conference has implemented it, the church could disaffiliate. The majority of churches who used 2553 did not disagree but expected they would in the future so they disaffiliated. Those who took 2553 at face value and remained but now disagree with the 2024(2020) stance regarding homosexuality now have no formal disaffiliation path. The Judicial Council should have been asked to rule that since the 2020 Conference happened on 2024, that expiration of 2553 should now be 2027. To my knowledge no one has ask that of the Judicial Council and now the 2024(2020) General Conference has completely deleted 2553 making it as if it never existed. What a tangled web we have weaved.
I don't have anything to add to your thoughts. Just want to say I appreciate your insights.
Honestly, I'm concerned that GMC folk are not serious enough about keeping liberal drift in check. I can't imagine how conservatives will do it in UMC going forward.
Ouch
I feel like the traditionalists are compared to legalistic pharisees and this new ideology blames the church in general for the lack of love and acceptance for homosexual pastors/ marriages and the racially diverse. Scripture is twisted to support these views and sometimes I find myself wondering if maybe I am a hypocrite, even though I know that this isn’t true based on my Bible reading. I wish I had another church to attend. My husband and I are elderly now and were long time active members. After I read the comments here, I don’t feel so lonely.
Taking an offshoot track.... As someone wishing to return to the Methodist Church via the GMC, I am seeing things in this "new" GMC that concern me. If Methodism is Arminian leaning, why are there Calvinistic authors books being used in Bible Studies? The local GMC church - which is the only GMC for MILES around that I have been attending - is one such GMC church. For example: John MacArthur's books. What are some books for Bible Study in line with the GMC that can be used instead of using books by Calvinist leaning authors?
Go to Seedbed publishing, a subsidiary of Asbury Theological Seminary.
It is called "discernment." My pastor has a copy of the Koran and other books from other religions to understand what they believe. John MacArthur is an excellent Bible teacher, and I listen to him even though I do not always agree with him. But, when it comes to the Bible, I have learned much from listening to him. God gave us a brain and the Holy Spirit. I think that is all we need to know the "Truth."
Unfortunately, everything that brother Jeffrey has stated here is true. Every prediction that he’s made concerning the trajectory of the UMC will eventually come to pass. One does not need to be a prophet in order to know that once a person, church, or denomination turns away from the authority of Scripture, they will experience spiritual death. If anyone doubts what Jeffrey has said is true, just look at the other theologically progressive denominations and see how quickly they suffered rapid decline once the went fully apostate. Been there, done that, as a former member of the ELCA.