Is it really about the gay stuff, though?
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- Опубліковано 19 гру 2023
- Yesterday’s report dealt partly with an article written by Ruth Graham for the New York Times. Part of it stated the primary reason for disaffiliation from The United Methodist Church being opposition to gay marriage and ordination. I got an email from a gentleman who wanted me to speak about this. Is it really the case that the primary reason for the “biggest denominational split ever” is the gay stuff? Or are things perhaps a bit more complicated than that?
Links:
This PlainSpoken Substack Article - open.substack.com/pub/plainsp...
New York Times Article “With a Deadline Looming, The United Methodist Church Breaks Up - www.nytimes.com/2023/12/18/us...
Biblical faithfulness should be the #1 priority of GODs people of any denomination. Everything else is secondary.
Perhaps partly about the gay thing. But it’s really about an obsolete business plan affecting conservative and liberal national denominations. SBC too. Denominations used to offer some good stuff to local congregations: a steady stream of trained leaders, attractive denominational branding, and every denomination had a powerhouse publishing house back in a paper and print oriented generation. All three have evaporated. Would have worked well for a national nonprofit organization in 1962. But the communication revolution has made print obsolete, seminaries have atrophied, and the national branding is not important to today’s young adults. Result: national denominations no longer add value to local congregations. So in order to stay in business, national denominations have replaced benefits with control, And the first ones to leave are the most successful, evangelistic, and entrepreneurial churches, which don’t need the denomination at all.
You are on point .
Imho the “LGBTQ issue “ is a red herring diverting attention away from what is REALLY going on in the UMC in the post-modern western world. A good student of ecclesiastical history would see that the way the UMC does things today is directly linked to the medieval RCC , via Henry VIII’s Church of England which imitated the RCC’s autocracy and power consolidation without the RCC trappings, which then with John Wesley’s help morphed into the Methodist EPISCOPAL Church , then the UMC.
All the while largely keeping a medieval RCC autocratic church structure .
That crap just is just not going to fly in the 21st c western world . Wait and see-> once the builder and silent generations who have bought this autocratic nonsense die off in 20-25 years , the UMC will be seen by the populace at large as being one step away from being a museum piece . You know, kind of the way the Methodist Church of England is looked at by the British today.
Too many people are seeing this as an LGBTQ issue. This largely helps the UMC powers-that-be because they can attribute it all to bigotry instead of to what’s really going on . I for one appreciate you seeing through it all.
For me, the straw that broke the camel's back was when I found out how the "recommended" seminaries were teaching heresy, i.e., Jesus was not sinless, He was not born of a virgin, it doesn't really matter if we don't agree on who Jesus is, dubious belief in the Trinity, and so forth, in addition to drag queen centered chapel lead by students. Adherence to Biblical truth and living by it is paramount.
Member of the Iowa Conference here. Our newly appointed bishop has declared that it is not important that we agree on who Jesus was. Are Methodists not even Christians anymore? Our pastor and district superintendent did everything they could to keep the gay issue out front as the only issue driving disaffiliation, and anyone wanting to disaffiliate on those grounds didn't have Christ-like love in their hearts. Our congregation never did discernment or had a vote so I am voting with my feet and my tithes.
appreciate your channel and thoughts. Keep up the great work.
Our church's disafiliation is completed this month. It has been painful and w3 have lost members and some just stopped coming till disafiliation is complete. Due to a PTSD TYPE fear that Global Methodist can or will become another version of UMC we have, for now, gone with Congregational Methodist. Praying that we can regrow, rebuild and continue to be a cornerstone for our community.
Perhaps my church is the exception, but since we were granted disaffiliation, some who had stopped coming have returned. Our attendance is back to the pre Covid level. The reasons we left were far reaching. Much as the pastor has indicated. Adherence to Scripture is necessary, and we feel the UMC leadership has abandoned.
@@ricknelson4721 yes...I really am glad he did this segment. I've been telling many that, yes, LGBTQ is certainly a factor but only because of what we are taught in scripture along with so many other areas our umc leadership has failed its people. We are in the business of saving souls! Aren't we?? How does accepting a lie accomplish this? The bishops got too comfortable on their mini thrones and the money more important than the whole purpose of the church, John Wesley's teachings and staying biblically faithful! My heart hurts over what's happening. As we move into the new year and we are finally free of the umc I pray many will return and hopefully those who couldn't bring themselves to join will now at least consider coming. I'm praying for all of us as we forge a new path. 🙏
Thank you - you are stretching me to see a much wider view. I needed this video and a different perspective. Grace and truth.
Appreciate your thoughts on the split, what you said about the different types of disaffiliaters being in the same sandbox is spot on. Be prepared for further splits once the dust settles, this has been the history of all the exoduses from the Mainline denominations. These groups will find it very hard to function together once the main adversary is no longer in the picture.
I think that is already happening in that left leaning practical churches are not joining GMC, some large grower churches are not joining GMC seeing denominations as a drag, same with overtly evangelicals not liking the constraints of liturgy and oversight, and some Fundamentalist for whom the term Methodist is now a bad word. But I think that most who go over to the GMC will have a mix of all the groups - especially if the Liturgical Conservatives, which got left out, are large in number - seeing the GMC has a non leftwing more or less mainline denomination.
Of course it isn’t about “ the gay stuff.” Anyone with good critical thinking skills can see that . If it was only about LGBTQ issues one of two things would’ve happened : 1) the two sides, because they cared about each other and valued each other too much to split over the issue would “ find a way “ to stay together . Period. Or 2) Realizing they could not reach a “ meeting of the minds “ on the subject the two sides would RELUCTANTLY part ways with grief and remorse .
In contrast , the only remorse I’m seeing is people wishing they could’ve left earlier .
This is about a toxic dysfunctional denomination that inevitably tripped over an issue so big it couldn’t dance around it like they usually have been able to do. If it had not been LGBTQ issues it would’ve been something else. If it had not been 2021-23, it would’ve been a little later over something else…probably something less divisive because time has not been on the UMC’s side for a long time now. It has been a brittle enterprise for a good twenty years or more, held together with spit ,band-aids and cheap duct tape .
Yo, watch it. I actually gave you credit for your viewpoint as I went through the analysis, although I didn't say your last name. I don't think you're wrong, but I think the issue is more complicated than what you offer. You're definitely right about the dysfunction, but many like me did leave about sexual ethics. As you know, you and I see such issues differently. While I could tolerate some dysfunction in leadership if it were biblically faithful, I can't really tolerate a lack of discernment around sexual morality in the community of faith. Folks like me really are different than a number of the other groups that wanted to leave primarily for other reasons.
@@plainspokenpodAnd you need to look again at what I said about option #2 . And I need to clarify that I’m talking specifically about THE DRAMA of the splitting going on now, not the splitting itself .
Let’s say, hypothetically, that the UMC consisted of clones of me and you . According to your criteria , you would choose to leave . I, on the other hand think it’s nonsensical to break up a body of Christ over normal human sexuality ( which homosexuality is) and place that opinion over agape love . Since , hypothetically , there is no animosity among us caused by decades and centuries of autocratic toxic dysfunction and we actually have respect for each other AS PERSONS then we would split with grief and wish each other well. Further , since we will have no power games to play with one another based in unbiblical, un-Christlike “ lording it over each other “ no one will be trying to take the other’s church property and placing punitive fees on leaving . Why? Because we actually care about each other ( yes I know we don’t really know each other but bear with me.)
This is nowhere near what is happening in the UMC today .
ALL THE DRAMA today in the UMC over the split is all about the toxicity of the UMC. If it was about fairly normal people who actually cared some about each other splitting over a theological disagreement it would’ve been dramatic in a sad sort of way , not dramatic in a “ War of the Roses” kind of way.
Jeffrey, this was very helpful in my understanding of what has happened. The bad actors as you call them are human, so it never surprises me, when people in powerful positions, are narcissistic and ego leaning. Power can create this dynamic. If it goes too far, its difficult to reign it in. I understand how difficult this is, but I think you are learning lots from these difficult times. Jeffrey, you are such a good speaker, besides singing, one of your many talents..I pray your voice is heard, in this wilderness of chaos. Your heart is in the right place..So very many blessings on you.
St. Luke’s does have concerns about other issues, however, one of the primary reasons they chose to disaffiliate is, indeed regard to the homosexuality issue. It’s just that they choose to disaffiliate because of what the book of discipline currently says about homosexuality. They are much more liberal in theology. They think the language condemning homosexuality is too harsh as it is and are not willing to stick around and see if it changes. It’s kind of strange because I think the writing is on the wall that the change is coming.
No, it's not. It's about faithfulness to Scripture and to the historical teaching of the Church, the Rule of Faith, for the last two centuries.
The issue of sexuality, pushed by religious progressives, has become the line drawn by traditional Christians who have said, "No more! We have dialogued and cooperated all we could, but with this you have gone too far. We won't stand for it any longer."
God bless you from TX. Our little church left and are fighting the GOOD fight. We unanimously left FUMC and unanimously joined the GMC
No one is talking about the change in the UMC’s stance on abortion…it is full out pro-choice now. That’s a major deal breaker for me.
Latest question from District. How many members have you gained from closed churches?
I assume it relates to those churches that have closed for all reasons. If related to the churches not towing the line. NONE! Where do churche leaders come up with this stuff. Who is out of touch with reality?
I love your tutorials thank you🐦🐦🙏🙏❤❤
Biblical faithfulness is the only thing that should be first and foremost. It answers all questions although it requires a steadfast faithfulness to God and to the teachings of Jesus. The goal is to save souls. Believing a lie will condemn you to hell. It's our goal as Christians to bring others to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.... Savior! Thank you for helping me to be able to better discuss these issues.
You listed 1) practical folk 2) growers 3) Evangelicals and 4) fundamentalists - I think you left out a fifth group 5) Conservatives (liturgical not evangelical) that would not consider themselves fundamentalist but did not like the leftward march of the Church in general and while more flexible than the Fundamentalists on some issues - gay marriage and same sex clergy were bridges too far theologically. I think there is overlap among all of the groups and that all were needed to get Churches to the 2/3.
I need to think more about if a Conservative category plays a big role in this arena or not. I guess I'm of the mind that, if folks were willing to cut ties with the UMC over gender critical issues, then whether or not they identify as more flexible than fundamentalists, they are actually just fundamentalists. I think there are a number of people who meet your definition who decided to stay in the UMC, though. Folks who aren't exactly comfortable with all this, but who weren't resolved enough to leave.
The group I'm thinking I failed to represent is the group that cares about orthodox theology, academic and otherwise. Once liberalism goes so far, I think the people who have any concern about historic doctrine just can't really take it seriously anymore. But I think this is a slim minority...
Perhaps but a very broad definition. One concern is that labeling Liturgical/Mainline Conservatives as fundamentalist might be self defeating as many would not self identify as such. Your point that many Conservatives have stayed (so far) is true as 2/3 is hard to reach - but also it may have varied by Conference. OK is very conservative but only 28% left. 10 Conferences were north of 40% with another 6 in the upper 30%'s. @@plainspokenpod
If taking a stand for God’s Holy Word gets me labeled a fundamentalist, then I too, will lean into that with you. The brokenness in the body of Christ is not so much about how we handle societal and cultural differences, rather how we handle ( or mishandle) the Word of God. Thank you, my GMC brother, for your faithfulness. May the LORD bless you and the ministry work you are leading.
Being holy because God is holy, as He calls us to be, pushes back against everything that is unholy. Maybe that is why Paul’s words to the Philippians still ring true today, Phil. 4:7-8.
Holiness has always been the issue. Thanks for saying it out loud.
I'm a Traditional Methodist. And I'm gay!! God said come as you are !!! Not tell everyone what you are!! Church is about God and Biblical Teaching !! I put that first above everything!! What happened at home is not my Business !!! Straight !! gay !! lesbian!! Whatever you think you are !!! I was happy with the old ways. But I'm not a normal gay man... I pray about my sins daily " and gay is the Smallest of my sin... I prefer to go to church late And leave early and keep my Business My business....
There are a lot more folks like you than most people know, Randy. The Lord bless you and minister to you in truth and care.
Best wishes Randy!
Christ is about a path to God. God is not carnal and carnal will not get one to God. Carnal is any sex. In fact carnal is even eating a good steak. Carnal is the flesh and the flesh is corruptible, ie rots. The only way to get to the infinite is to leave the finite. This can never be done with externals but must be an internal path, that is a path within one's self which Christianity in truth offers as has been reported by many persons in the past like Saint Augustine and Meister Eckhart.
No it’s about the uniqueness of Jesus and his atoning death and resurrection. The apostates believe in sentiment as the door of salvation or personal
Suffering as the means of personal salvation.
No way it about the down grading of gods word and the teachings of Christ Jesus, the so called progressive christian
Wow, got a severe haircut!
I think there was a bigger denomination split in 1054 AD, but great word
3.2 subs
II Corinthians 6:
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty
Couldn’t disagree more, but I appreciate the honesty. I see Christianity getting even more tribal and fundamentalist. You be you, but leave the rest of us alone!
I'm of the mind that the Christian faith cannot and should not coerce anyone into faith. The problems come when we are trying to figure out. how to share the same society. If there is not any shared foundation of moral behavior, soon all kinds of horrifying things become normative. I see this as already having taken place. I am more worried about children, in particular, being victimized than I am about nonbelievers feeling constrained by the faithful around them. I'm glad you appreciate the honesty. I don't find folks like Steven Pinker very convincing when they argue that religion is not needed for a thriving or moral society. I guess I'm of the mind that believers and nonbelievers just need to live in separate societies, as we will inevitably do harm to one another and blame our own failures on one another. I don't wish folks like you any harm. I just want y'all to go do your own thing far away from me and my kids. I'm not pretending to know anything about you personally. I'm just talking broadly to a representative to the cultural left. I think leftism causes death and misery. I am indeed a tribal fundamentalist. I'm of the tribe of Christ and a bible bigot.
@@plainspokenpod Why are conservatives so concerned all of a sudden with the victimization of children? Children today are arguably safer than in any point in history. There are more safeguards in place than before, and technology has made it easier to catch bad actors. If someone victimizes children today or commits some other infamous crime, the probability of getting caught is high. That wasn't the case in past decades. And why do you think liberals are more likely to victimize children? Conservative people are also capable of committing heinous crimes.
@@Derek032789conservatives aren’t telling children that mutilating their genitals is “gender-affirming healthcare,” from every classroom.
Fundamentalist here. But I believe the Charismatic group may be largest .
I am a member of Catholic Christian Church and we have had our share of scandal. I Pray for our Methodist brothers and sisters in Christ.
I know of three local Methodist Churches who have decided not to remain in the UMC. I work for a sign shop and we have made new signage for two of these.
We, as Christians, must come together and Pray for one another. God Bless.
Spot On: completely Disingenuous: that all of this/the Split is over LGBTQ/Issues. Rather: the Dysfunction and Arrogance of Imagining that in Due Time Everyone will come around to your Point of View. I’ve been watching this closely since the mid-70’s.
Ms Penny Cost is doing great things for the Methodist Church - a true inspiration.