Econoboi: explains economics Vaush: I don't understand. A real economist wouldn't be talking about economics, they'd be taking about how banks are evil. Econoboi: but I'm an economist Vaush: no
Given how these things tend to go I'm expecting to *eventually* hit the point where this is repeated verbatim (spare the first part which is a summary).
While Econoboi is right about the IMF being a bank, and as such they will place conditions on their loans to ensure they get their money back. That's pretty obviously not the ONLY reason they place those conditions on these countries though. If the only reason was that they want the country to be able to pay back the loan, they would not bar countries from doing the kind of protectionism and investment in education that actually helps countries get past the dreaded middle-income trap that stuff like diamond mining has a hard time accomplishing. Focusing almost exclusively on resource extraction and making those industries available for western businesses creates a situation where a few select industries are holding up the whole country, they can't actually raise their standard of living past a certain point because they lose comparative advantage, and the biggest most profitable industries are largely owned by foreign companies
@@MrRazmut sure, that's totally valid. The IMF only succeeds in this venture because the leaders of these countries get a huge payout in exchange for selling out their economy. US banks do this same abuse to their own citizens, offer loans that will only benefit the bank. We can examine this as a flaw in the banking structure which allows for abuse, but to call it a malicious act requires moral justifications, which no longer falls in the realm of economics. You and vaush can both call fowl, which I'm sure most people recognize, but the moral condemnation of the system betrays the purpose of economics: to have a stable, money making machine which serves to benefit itself and societies structure, not the people existing in it.
Econoboi has so much patience, and he doesn't seem capable of getting mad. Once he does more of these and if he becomes willing to push a little (or a lot) more, he's going to run circles around anybody on the platform.
"We are on a unrelenting research Arc until we find out why that guy said was wrong"... This is how I start all of my research. If u start w/ a conclusion first and work backwards it's way easier..
In some instances, people actually start with a conclusion but turn it into a research question. It's only bad if the data and results they obtain do not fit the conclusion and but they still try to make it fit. If they say their conclusion was wrong, then it's fine that they started from their conclusion
@@filthyneutral5801 there is a huge difference between creating a research question, forming a hypothesis and CONDUCTING research; than forming a conclusion from a personal political opinion and searching for defunked scholarly sources to support your conclusion.
I find it cuts down research time to almost none. As my research time approaches zero I find my belief in my ideology approaches infinity. Seems legit to me
Ya know, this debate between Vaush and Econoboi really highlights a lot of bad qualities Vaush has. One is that he just wants to be right and just wants to “win”. He doesn’t want to really listen and take in what the person who is certainly beyond qualified to not only know more than Vaush on the topics they discussed, but also inform him. He has this condescending arrogant tone and demeanor that he knows more than the person he’s debating even when that clearly isn’t the case. Like a good portion of the debate he was literally just reading word for word off of Wikipedia. It’s like he was pretending to already know what he was saying but he was actually learning a lot of it for the first time. Also, this demeanor is the same one that DemonMama has. They go into a debate or conversation already convinced of their position (which most people do tbf), BUT, no matter how much sense the ‘opposition’ makes, no matter how qualified they are to actually have the knowledge and experience, and no matter how perfectly logical and reasonable they are, they will never ever concede. Vaush could have easily agreed with what Econoboi was saying but also disagree or rather not fully agree at the same time. For instance, saying something like “that’s a good point and I definitely can understand that. But…”, or something to that affect. He was so obviously wanting to “win”, he just came off needlessly combative. It’s almost like what contrarians do, in fact, it’s exactly what they do. Even IF Vaush DID agree, he would say he disagreed but then just agree with different words. Which funnily enough he’s actually done that many times before. Also that last line at the very end once Econ left was priceless. Anyway, just finished their debate. I’ll watch the rest of the 1hr46mins when I get a chance. Thanks for uploading this!
Vaush represents everything I hate about modern day liberals. Destiny is honestly a breath of fresh air. He's not always right, but at least he's authentic and willing to change. Fuck vaush.
@@kalisto8873 yeah but most people on the left know conservatives are unwilling to change, it’s in their names. The astonishing part is when self labeled progressives are unbending in their thoughts as well, which is a primal weakness in the human psyche. It’s not important to point out that a knife is sharp, but that something like paper can also cut you because it’s not expected. Having a progressive like vaush represent a movement who is built on fluidity of ideas be so unbending in their own ideas is valid for identifying and mocking.
he is pretty open about this behaviour he stated time and time again that a debate is not about changing minds, it's about winning over the audience. and this is in line with his "I'm willing to lie to push my agenda" take too. I mean at least he's honest about it?
@@tamashorvath7954 Yeah that’s true. But this didn’t have to necessarily be a “debate”. I was under the impression that it was more of a conversation based on an argument they had maybe on twitter or something? You don’t have to “debate” everyone that you’re having a conversation with that you disagree with. You see what I’m saying? Aside from that, even if he does that in debates, I don’t think it’s as effective as he thinks it is for the audience/viewers. If you’re unwilling to agree with anything the person you’re debating says, even IF you actually do agree AND even in that same debate you end up agreeing but just wording it differently, I’d hope at least a good portion of those watching/listening would be able to recognize that and perceive it as a negative. And I’m not necessarily talking about Vaush fans, because of course they aren’t going to view many things he says or does negatively. But if you’re only trying to “win” debates to look /good/ for the people who are already your fans, I’m not sure I see that as an overall “winning” move as far as the big picture is concerned or as far as the future is concerned. It reminds me of something Destiny has said about certain people on the left trying to avoid facts because the facts might be damaging to their argument. And sometimes they don’t just avoid them, they deny them. This will never get anyone on the right or anyone in the middle “on your side” when you do shit like this. And for the people who say that people who listen to debates will only care or agree with who they already agree with, that’s just not always true. Otherwise why would there be so many people, myself included, who have moved to the left precisely *because* of debates but especially because of Destiny and how he debates?
Vaush only applies his standards to people and institutions outside his ideology. His whole worldview is based on the assumption that it is doubtlessly correct, that he has already arrived at the optimal path for society. It's not about consistency, or finding truth. In his world truth has been found, it's socialism. The only discussion remaining is how to advance the movement. Anything that hurts the movement or makes it look worse optically is bad, regardless of if arises from inconsistency from his 'side' or if the criticism is valid. He's basically a presuppasitionalist for socialism. It's why he'll argue against anything that makes the movement look worse even if it's correct, or why he does not even entertain anything Econoboi saying being correct since he has already reached his conclusion regardless of any new information.
@@dogmanbitehurt8243 I don't remember where in the video they are, but Vaush makes two statements that contradict what he said to Ahrelevant in their last debate. First, Chase saying it won't lend to companies that don't make pledges towards substantially reducing carbon emissions, is not a good thing because it didn't hurt their bottom line so it isn't done altruistically. This completely flies in the face of his superogatory actions defense of "socialist" streamers who argue on behalf of socialism but do nothing to help promote it. Second, he said that carbon capture credits are a bad policy because its bad to reward small good steps rather than punishing bad moves. This again goes against his attacks on people criticizing Hasan because Vaush thought it was better to encourage him to do better with his money than to criticize him for not living his ideals.
@@erickeim-stallings1390 Ah I misunderstood, I thought you were criticizing Destiny for calling out Vaush, I have not managed to listen to the rele and vaush debate entirely
@@dogmanbitehurt8243 haha yeah I don't blame you, it was a struggle to listen to someone so clearly lying with such conviction. Just wish Destiny had caught those parts cause I think he would've had a field day
Something to notice about this talk is that econboi will talk about current trends while Vaush will talk about ruthless and heartless laissez faire corporations from the 19th century.
Well, generally these examples that occurred during the last century set the foundation for the discourse of this century. Even with globalization becoming the norm, many of these countries that had US intervention with business interests in mind are still suffering the effects of those regime changes that took place. Just look at Honduras, the original US Banana Republic. Coupled with anti-immigration policies that took place while the country was destabilized as a result of Reagan policies, the country and the people themselves have not been able to recover. Its leftists leaders keep getting coup'd and US politicians generally support it because, in their eyes, it provides a stronghold against Venezuela. Nicaragua suffered the same fate from US-backed right wing contras. A lot of this stuff may seem irrelevant to Americans and other people from wealthy countries, but as an immigrant from these countries, it really baffles me how US-centric perspectives really skew the overall picture for a lot of destiny's community to this extent.
@@comicsans6487 Destiny usually bans retards that say baseless shit and don't back it up, and unbans via email, Vaush doesn't do unban-requests or at least doesn't advertise it afaik
@@GMAH111 Fun reminder that Destiny is openly proud of banning hundreds of leftists from his community and it’s literally referred to as the ‘lefty arc’ where people post o7 every time someone corrected him in chat but I mean go off about echo chambers lmaoooo
Moreover, I think it was very disingenuous of vaush to differ the 4 Asian tigers from other developing countries in that they didn’t “liberalize” their economies and had protectionist and invested in their people’s education. That is a very reductive way of thinking. For example, South Korea didn’t just magically invent Samsung and their huge tech sector. In fact, South Korea even took out a IMF loan in 1997 during a crisis. The truth is liberalizing economies isn’t a zero sum game where you stop investing in your citizens.
the "ill go on a research arc until i find out why im right" thing is the part you arent supposed to say out loud lmao vaush built his entire world view on a conclusion first, he will spout what he needs to in order to make it look internally consistent at the moment it is being questioned it immediately falls apart and becomes incoherent as soon as you compare his beliefs against each other
to be fair he is in a really difficult position he built his entire brand, his online persona, his community all around socialism. i think he is smart enough to realise, and he did a while ago, that there are holes in his ideology, he's just too far gone to change his mind. honestly i don't know if I'd have the strength to do differently in his position. he is so well off now and could wreck his career with this. now I'm not saying that grifting is good, or that what he's doing is fine, but it's at least somewhat understandable
We’re on an unrelenting economic research arc until I confirm all my biases. I won’t stand for this lunacy. I can’t have these doubts creep in as I fall asleep at night
Because Vaush has no ability to discern people’s opinions at all. He doesn’t listen, and generally just assumes “You’re opposed to me, therefore fascist”
@@lukaswithakay funny thing is that this guy barely get his opinion in most of the time he simply makes descriptive statements on how companies works and Vaush took it as a moral offense lmao.
15 mins in and im happy to see that at least 1 person seems to know what they are talking about, can't wait to see Vowsh trying to pivot around and squirm under some pressure
@@littlechungus4909 it’s probably some machine learning involved. It’s not like there’s insufficient footage of train to get a full phonetic alphabet lol
Does vaush not understand that playing in the hands of big economies by for example trading strategic ressources to them is beneficial to developing economies?
That is his main point. In fact that is almost the entirety of his ideology as a sociologist. Sometimes the systems or the circumstances we find ourselves in lead us to only two poor choices. These nations MUST accept foreign investment AND must engage in exporting raw resources due to the lack of industrialization they have faced over the last 200 years, but by being in such a precarious situation it is easier for more developed economies to take advantage of them. Vaush is very clear about this world view. The only way to help these nations is to understand their place in the world economic hierarchy and that standard operating procedures will lead to their exploitation. Only through large scale development of these nations that can aid the systemic reasons of their underdevelopment will help. Otherwise they will forever be stuck in a poverty trap save for significant technological advancement. It is precisely because their best option is their own exploitation that they have no natural way out. That is Vaush’s entire point.
A big part of that economic collapse was because the US was actively destroying chilean economy during the Nixon era (there are CIA released tapes explaining this and Kissinger saying so, in the so-called Track II where Nixon orders him "make the economy scream", part of the FUBELT plan to desestabilize Chile to make a coup, which was aldo part of an even bigger plot for state terrorism in the south of america, the Condon Plan)
Before the corporate tax rate was lowered by trump, we had the third highest corporate tax rate on earth. Saudi’s Arabia and the ducking CONGO were 1 and 2 if not mistaken
The ESG score is used to identify investments that are in line with environmental and social progressiveness, so you're right, there are definitely investors putting money specifically towards those types of companies.
For my capstone class I remember seeing some research that suggested drug companies R&D spending is pretty sensitive to the money they can expect to make. The reason we don’t see a proportionally larger amount of American drug companies is becouase foreign research projects see just as much incentive from the higher American prices as domestic companies do. That said I do agree that a single payer pharmaceutical industry could work but only if the government is committed to providing significant monetary incentives, if it’s marketed as a way to save money research would probably slow globally.
I like the fact Econoboi bought up Botswana's pretty much disproves a lot of leftists talking points about countries in the global South. Moreover find the way lefties talk about countries in the global South really paternalistic and condescending. It is also slightly rich to complain about imperialism when you are trying to implement a western worldview (communism/socialism) onto the world.
@@willjapheth23789 you need to give away everything you own then donate all your organs to science or else you're just an imperialist fascist capitalist racist misogynist.
UA-cam puts this video in my recommendations every so often, and every time I see it, I see Steven with "E flat" next to him in the thumbnail and briefly think "oh, a Destiny video about music!", and then have the disappointment of realizing that I've been fooled again.
wouldn't the ultimate goal be for ethical practices to also be profitable? It seems really counter productive to write off every ESG investment as "just to further their capital" or "as a coverup for their bad deeds" when that shouldn't matter if it's helping people and the environment. If it is insanely profitable we should be GLAD it is bc that's another incentive for them to do right by their customers
Holy fuck dude, it's almost like economics and most things issues solutions depends on a lot of shit. Damn my one lense analysis 100% of the time isn't a sufficient solution. Damn never thought
Canada is one of the most resource rich countries on the planet lol. The Canadian Shield was scraped clean by the last glaciation event and left a lot of incredibly valuable resources in easy reach.
A donation to a charity is a tax loophole? He needs to explain how this works. Oh, he thinks it's a tax loophole, but he doesn't know it yet. When he begins to say irrelevant moral talking points instead of focusing on the real problem and solution, it is clear that he has not thought or explored those issues.
It is a tax loophole. Well more accurately, it can be. You should look into the homeless shelters in New York. The “loophole” is you give to your own charity, pay no tax on that contribution avoiding capital gains tax, use the contribution as a further tax deductible, then spend that money “for charity” however you see fit. Charities don’t need to disclose how they spend their money. This “charity money” can be used for political lobbying, buying favors through donations to institutions, etc. You should know about an issue before you kneejerk and assume the opposite just because someone else doesn’t know either.
@@callowaymotorcompany You are talking about the charity. I am talking about the person who donates. How does the person who donates save money?!? If you add everything up, he doesn't!
I mean, it's up to Botswana to diversify its economy. When they start investing in education, reforming, etc., they can diversify their economies as well.
This is a good example of an instance where an intelligent person becomes so emotionally invested in being right, they begin to marginalize the contributions of the other person in the broader debate. Vaush is such a waste of talent.
Vaush is a disgusting slime person. Even if I didn't think he was a Secret Nazi he'd still be offensively smug and condescending. I change my positions to get further away from his.
It makes me so happy that people are starting to see Trash for what he is. On another note this dude amazing smacking his lips ever 3 seconds is driving me mental.
i like this alot, econoboy is fun and like really brings a perfect structure for to elaborate and discuss economic ideas for them both i disagree a bit with both of them (economics -> actuary -> machine learning engineer) but god damn if i do not enjoy this conversation
Yeah corporate taxes are weird, b/c the money is basically double taxed, but the advantage is you can raise money while not having to actually raise personal income tax so voter will hate you less because they don't see the taxes coming out of their paycheques
Vaush isn’t a guy who actually wants change. He wants his reality to be the future. Getting real change means making compromises and constant strategy. Him talking on the internet gets no change done. He should be running for office. However sitting down all day does make him lots of money and then he gets to throw a charity livestream to make it seem like he is making a change.
Sure i wouldnt be surprised if countries like Argentina criticise the IMF for putting strict conditions on their loans. Of course countries like argentina are going to want continued bailouts every year with no conditions on spending
But but but... they wouldn't do that, they have no profit motive! They'd grow the minimum amount of crops possible until the population reaches equilibrium with the new supply.
3:24:00 with the super rich, could they even sell their assets without tanking the price of the asset? Like the market cap of Amazon is over a trillion, but if all of bezo's stocks were on the market, it would potentially tank.
You tax corporate profits to encourage them to spend. Without corporate taxes corporations would not buy as much stuff and just hold profits and that would not be good for the economy.
@24:00 Part of the Marshall plan outlined that the US would answer any and all calls to fight communism globally. This resulted in a grab bag of good and bad revolutions that the US supported. What I mean by this is that we ended up supporting some authoritarian leaders as well as some democratic leaders all in the name of fighting communism. This phase took place during the same time that left leaning people cite coups in many different countries. A lot of the social policy in south and central America was supportive of Marxism even if their governments werent explicitly Marxism Leninism. It's easy to see why the US might get involved if other leaders in these countries were asking the US for help due to the Marshall plan. The plan is also partially responsible for the 1953 Iran coup. The Iranian government had seized oil fields owned by the British. Apart from the seizure, there was worry over Iran selling oil to the Soviet union. I'm not making any moral claims over the events, I'm just explaining the climate in which this all happened.
Im starting to think it's psychedelics why Destiny is more willing to change. And lack of them for Vaush. Can't be open to new ideas and change when the old workhorse ain't got that plasticity
Maybe the main reason for companies to give to charity isn’t virtues but what vaush is arguing for here is essentially that companies take a virtue ethicists position
3 buildings (World Trade Center, North Tower and South Tower, The Pentagon in Washington DC and 4 planes. And an open field in route to the White House. “Let’s Roll” Rest in Peace
Corporate taxes don't really exist. Businesses just treat taxes they have to pay as a form of expense that drives up the cost of business and they simply raise the price of their goods and services until the profit (after tax) is where they want it to be. Consumers then buy these goods and services at a greater price than they would otherwise and are the people who suffer the tax. Corporate taxes are only used in this way to essentially stealth tax people more while pretending its taxing nasty evil businesses. It's not, it's a tax on you. If people knew how much tax they were really paying in total once you add up their contribution to corp taxes, plus income taxes, plus sales taxes and everything else, they'd be shocked at just how expensive the government really is.
Wait, but econoboi doesn't actually answer how the imports turning into our service economy could possibly be 3-8 percent. That literally makes no sense.
I didn't really pay attention but wasn't it the comparative advantage? Like labor from foreign economies is 3-8 percent cheaper than getting natives to produce. But that seems low so idk
As I understood it, if foreign workers were payed the same as US workers (i.e the exchange in value is equal) there would be a 3-8% loss in US domestic product. The US would still trade and be able to specialize its economy, but has to pay more for foreign labour. This is why he kept using the phrase "unequal exchange", not simply trade. There was a point where Econoboi realized Vaush was missing this and tried to explain, but Vaush just cut him off and doubles down on insisting he's wrong.
It was so frustrating when V man was asking for a company doing the right thing and taking a hit to their bottom dollar. My favourite sport in Formula 1 have set a path to be carbon neutral by 2030 and have done a tonne of investment into 100% sustainable fuel by use in 2026. Im sure most petrol heads prefer the sound and speed of V8 engines buzzing around but thats not the case because of this corporations decisions.
It doesn’t even matter because if I was a company i would try my damnedest to minimize a bit to my bottle line while still staying relevant to the market. Does vaush honestly think companies aren’t trying to figure out how to go Carbon neutral without taking a hit. As long as they go net zero isn’t that the point?
Econoboi ►ua-cam.com/users/Econoboivideos ►twitter.com/Econoboi
Destiny, the US was already in a dotcom bubble when 9/11 happened. The recession actually ended two months afterwards.
Ok
Evil Vaush be like: * Uses fewest words necessary to convey his point *
So... Good Vaush is so long-winded that even he forgets what he was talking about..?
@@the_inquisitive_inquisitor it's... The meme? Am I the wooooshed one here?
Why use lot word when few word do trick
@@rltofuiii no you got it
evil vaush be like: vaush. it's just vaush
Econoboi: explains economics
Vaush: I don't understand. A real economist wouldn't be talking about economics, they'd be taking about how banks are evil.
Econoboi: but I'm an economist
Vaush: no
Given how these things tend to go I'm expecting to *eventually* hit the point where this is repeated verbatim (spare the first part which is a summary).
While Econoboi is right about the IMF being a bank, and as such they will place conditions on their loans to ensure they get their money back. That's pretty obviously not the ONLY reason they place those conditions on these countries though. If the only reason was that they want the country to be able to pay back the loan, they would not bar countries from doing the kind of protectionism and investment in education that actually helps countries get past the dreaded middle-income trap that stuff like diamond mining has a hard time accomplishing. Focusing almost exclusively on resource extraction and making those industries available for western businesses creates a situation where a few select industries are holding up the whole country, they can't actually raise their standard of living past a certain point because they lose comparative advantage, and the biggest most profitable industries are largely owned by foreign companies
@@MrRazmut sure, that's totally valid. The IMF only succeeds in this venture because the leaders of these countries get a huge payout in exchange for selling out their economy. US banks do this same abuse to their own citizens, offer loans that will only benefit the bank. We can examine this as a flaw in the banking structure which allows for abuse, but to call it a malicious act requires moral justifications, which no longer falls in the realm of economics. You and vaush can both call fowl, which I'm sure most people recognize, but the moral condemnation of the system betrays the purpose of economics: to have a stable, money making machine which serves to benefit itself and societies structure, not the people existing in it.
Vaush, reading this: look I don’t really care about the economy or our economic mode of production
What did you expect from a sociology major
Econoboi has so much patience, and he doesn't seem capable of getting mad. Once he does more of these and if he becomes willing to push a little (or a lot) more, he's going to run circles around anybody on the platform.
"We are on a unrelenting research Arc until we find out why that guy said was wrong"... This is how I start all of my research. If u start w/ a conclusion first and work backwards it's way easier..
In some instances, people actually start with a conclusion but turn it into a research question. It's only bad if the data and results they obtain do not fit the conclusion and but they still try to make it fit. If they say their conclusion was wrong, then it's fine that they started from their conclusion
Somehow i feel like vaush isnt being as scientific as your explanation.
Google: Why the IMF is evil
@@filthyneutral5801 there is a huge difference between creating a research question, forming a hypothesis and CONDUCTING research; than forming a conclusion from a personal political opinion and searching for defunked scholarly sources to support your conclusion.
I find it cuts down research time to almost none. As my research time approaches zero I find my belief in my ideology approaches infinity. Seems legit to me
Ya know, this debate between Vaush and Econoboi really highlights a lot of bad qualities Vaush has. One is that he just wants to be right and just wants to “win”. He doesn’t want to really listen and take in what the person who is certainly beyond qualified to not only know more than Vaush on the topics they discussed, but also inform him. He has this condescending arrogant tone and demeanor that he knows more than the person he’s debating even when that clearly isn’t the case. Like a good portion of the debate he was literally just reading word for word off of Wikipedia. It’s like he was pretending to already know what he was saying but he was actually learning a lot of it for the first time. Also, this demeanor is the same one that DemonMama has. They go into a debate or conversation already convinced of their position (which most people do tbf), BUT, no matter how much sense the ‘opposition’ makes, no matter how qualified they are to actually have the knowledge and experience, and no matter how perfectly logical and reasonable they are, they will never ever concede. Vaush could have easily agreed with what Econoboi was saying but also disagree or rather not fully agree at the same time. For instance, saying something like “that’s a good point and I definitely can understand that. But…”, or something to that affect. He was so obviously wanting to “win”, he just came off needlessly combative. It’s almost like what contrarians do, in fact, it’s exactly what they do. Even IF Vaush DID agree, he would say he disagreed but then just agree with different words. Which funnily enough he’s actually done that many times before.
Also that last line at the very end once Econ left was priceless.
Anyway, just finished their debate. I’ll watch the rest of the 1hr46mins when I get a chance. Thanks for uploading this!
Honestly people who don't do this are a river in a desert
Vaush represents everything I hate about modern day liberals. Destiny is honestly a breath of fresh air. He's not always right, but at least he's authentic and willing to change. Fuck vaush.
@@kalisto8873 yeah but most people on the left know conservatives are unwilling to change, it’s in their names. The astonishing part is when self labeled progressives are unbending in their thoughts as well, which is a primal weakness in the human psyche. It’s not important to point out that a knife is sharp, but that something like paper can also cut you because it’s not expected. Having a progressive like vaush represent a movement who is built on fluidity of ideas be so unbending in their own ideas is valid for identifying and mocking.
he is pretty open about this behaviour
he stated time and time again that a debate is not about changing minds, it's about winning over the audience.
and this is in line with his "I'm willing to lie to push my agenda" take too.
I mean at least he's honest about it?
@@tamashorvath7954 Yeah that’s true. But this didn’t have to necessarily be a “debate”. I was under the impression that it was more of a conversation based on an argument they had maybe on twitter or something? You don’t have to “debate” everyone that you’re having a conversation with that you disagree with. You see what I’m saying?
Aside from that, even if he does that in debates, I don’t think it’s as effective as he thinks it is for the audience/viewers. If you’re unwilling to agree with anything the person you’re debating says, even IF you actually do agree AND even in that same debate you end up agreeing but just wording it differently, I’d hope at least a good portion of those watching/listening would be able to recognize that and perceive it as a negative. And I’m not necessarily talking about Vaush fans, because of course they aren’t going to view many things he says or does negatively. But if you’re only trying to “win” debates to look
/good/ for the people who are already your fans, I’m not sure I see that as an overall “winning” move as far as the big picture is concerned or as far as the future is concerned.
It reminds me of something Destiny has said about certain people on the left trying to avoid facts because the facts might be damaging to their argument. And sometimes they don’t just avoid them, they deny them. This will never get anyone on the right or anyone in the middle “on your side” when you do shit like this. And for the people who say that people who listen to debates will only care or agree with who they already agree with, that’s just not always true. Otherwise why would there be so many people, myself included, who have moved to the left precisely *because* of debates but especially because of Destiny and how he debates?
So NOW we should punish good behavior that doesn't do enough rather than applauding it for being good? Where's Ahrelevant?
Vaush only applies his standards to people and institutions outside his ideology. His whole worldview is based on the assumption that it is doubtlessly correct, that he has already arrived at the optimal path for society. It's not about consistency, or finding truth. In his world truth has been found, it's socialism. The only discussion remaining is how to advance the movement. Anything that hurts the movement or makes it look worse optically is bad, regardless of if arises from inconsistency from his 'side' or if the criticism is valid. He's basically a presuppasitionalist for socialism. It's why he'll argue against anything that makes the movement look worse even if it's correct, or why he does not even entertain anything Econoboi saying being correct since he has already reached his conclusion regardless of any new information.
I'm really curious how this video made you come to that outcome
@@dogmanbitehurt8243 I don't remember where in the video they are, but Vaush makes two statements that contradict what he said to Ahrelevant in their last debate. First, Chase saying it won't lend to companies that don't make pledges towards substantially reducing carbon emissions, is not a good thing because it didn't hurt their bottom line so it isn't done altruistically. This completely flies in the face of his superogatory actions defense of "socialist" streamers who argue on behalf of socialism but do nothing to help promote it. Second, he said that carbon capture credits are a bad policy because its bad to reward small good steps rather than punishing bad moves. This again goes against his attacks on people criticizing Hasan because Vaush thought it was better to encourage him to do better with his money than to criticize him for not living his ideals.
@@erickeim-stallings1390 Ah I misunderstood, I thought you were criticizing Destiny for calling out Vaush, I have not managed to listen to the rele and vaush debate entirely
@@dogmanbitehurt8243 haha yeah I don't blame you, it was a struggle to listen to someone so clearly lying with such conviction. Just wish Destiny had caught those parts cause I think he would've had a field day
Funny how Vaush calls everyone else bad faith but he literally showed not an ounce of good faith in this debate. Just dogwhistles to his audience.
Grifter gonna grift
That Train TTS is goated!
No cap !
True true
there has to be a compilation made, it's so accurate
@@pivotlordOMG idk if there is but please god I hope there is
I dunno man, that econoboi guy was good faith AF and had really good points
Something to notice about this talk is that econboi will talk about current trends while Vaush will talk about ruthless and heartless laissez faire corporations from the 19th century.
But to truly understand the current ecenomic climate, we need to go all the way back to feudalism...
@@thesinbad hahah, nice meme
Well, generally these examples that occurred during the last century set the foundation for the discourse of this century. Even with globalization becoming the norm, many of these countries that had US intervention with business interests in mind are still suffering the effects of those regime changes that took place. Just look at Honduras, the original US Banana Republic. Coupled with anti-immigration policies that took place while the country was destabilized as a result of Reagan policies, the country and the people themselves have not been able to recover. Its leftists leaders keep getting coup'd and US politicians generally support it because, in their eyes, it provides a stronghold against Venezuela. Nicaragua suffered the same fate from US-backed right wing contras. A lot of this stuff may seem irrelevant to Americans and other people from wealthy countries, but as an immigrant from these countries, it really baffles me how US-centric perspectives really skew the overall picture for a lot of destiny's community to this extent.
@@TheAwesomoe How old are you two? Have you got involved in any political organizing? Or is it all just feeling smug watching Destiny.
@@rickyemiguel Don't bother mate, these people are just interested in memes. They have no interest in political education or action.
Banning people for opposite economic beliefs that are slightly different from yours? Wow, Vaush really turned his chat into an echo chamber.
its just a joke
Didn't Destiny did it first?
@@comicsans6487 Destiny usually bans retards that say baseless shit and don't back it up, and unbans via email, Vaush doesn't do unban-requests or at least doesn't advertise it afaik
Opposite beliefs that are slightly different? Can you clarify please?
@@GMAH111 Fun reminder that Destiny is openly proud of banning hundreds of leftists from his community and it’s literally referred to as the ‘lefty arc’ where people post o7 every time someone corrected him in chat but I mean go off about echo chambers lmaoooo
Wait what? Vaush said Singapore got rich from protectionism? Isn't Singapore a prime example of openness to trade and liberalization of the economy?
Moreover, I think it was very disingenuous of vaush to differ the 4 Asian tigers from other developing countries in that they didn’t “liberalize” their economies and had protectionist and invested in their people’s education. That is a very reductive way of thinking. For example, South Korea didn’t just magically invent Samsung and their huge tech sector. In fact, South Korea even took out a IMF loan in 1997 during a crisis. The truth is liberalizing economies isn’t a zero sum game where you stop investing in your citizens.
these new dono voices are the funniest shit
Is this AI voice shit?
@@electron6825 yes
Is it supposed to sound like Dan or one of Destiny's regulars?
It's funny watching V intentionally trying to create animosity.
the "ill go on a research arc until i find out why im right" thing is the part you arent supposed to say out loud lmao
vaush built his entire world view on a conclusion first, he will spout what he needs to in order to make it look internally consistent at the moment it is being questioned
it immediately falls apart and becomes incoherent as soon as you compare his beliefs against each other
to be fair he is in a really difficult position
he built his entire brand, his online persona, his community all around socialism.
i think he is smart enough to realise, and he did a while ago, that there are holes in his ideology, he's just too far gone to change his mind.
honestly i don't know if I'd have the strength to do differently in his position. he is so well off now and could wreck his career with this.
now I'm not saying that grifting is good, or that what he's doing is fine, but it's at least somewhat understandable
Destiny needs to have Econoboi on a lot more to talk about econ stuff or other lefties econ takes.
"liberal economies is when you trade with other countries and mine natural resources more" - Vaush
We’re on an unrelenting economic research arc until I confirm all my biases. I won’t stand for this lunacy. I can’t have these doubts creep in as I fall asleep at night
Why was vaush being such an asshole to this guy when he was being so nice to him?
Because Vaush has no ability to discern people’s opinions at all. He doesn’t listen, and generally just assumes “You’re opposed to me, therefore fascist”
@@lukaswithakay funny thing is that this guy barely get his opinion in most of the time he simply makes descriptive statements on how companies works and Vaush took it as a moral offense lmao.
15 mins in and im happy to see that at least 1 person seems to know what they are talking about, can't wait to see Vowsh trying to pivot around and squirm under some pressure
When did destiny hire trainwrecks to read his donations?
bro the trainwrecks tts had me fucking rolling
Facts how does that even work 😂
@@littlechungus4909 it’s probably some machine learning involved. It’s not like there’s insufficient footage of train to get a full phonetic alphabet lol
Booksmarts has the same. Except that it's Steven who reads the donations
Does vaush not understand that playing in the hands of big economies by for example trading strategic ressources to them is beneficial to developing economies?
@spitedriven yes because they promis lofty ideals without understanding how to actually get there hurting the least people.
That is his main point. In fact that is almost the entirety of his ideology as a sociologist. Sometimes the systems or the circumstances we find ourselves in lead us to only two poor choices. These nations MUST accept foreign investment AND must engage in exporting raw resources due to the lack of industrialization they have faced over the last 200 years, but by being in such a precarious situation it is easier for more developed economies to take advantage of them. Vaush is very clear about this world view.
The only way to help these nations is to understand their place in the world economic hierarchy and that standard operating procedures will lead to their exploitation. Only through large scale development of these nations that can aid the systemic reasons of their underdevelopment will help. Otherwise they will forever be stuck in a poverty trap save for significant technological advancement. It is precisely because their best option is their own exploitation that they have no natural way out. That is Vaush’s entire point.
22:45 Too true, everyone knows how bad Pinochet was for free chopper rides, it pretends like Allende was doing well.
The country was collapsing
A big part of that economic collapse was because the US was actively destroying chilean economy during the Nixon era (there are CIA released tapes explaining this and Kissinger saying so, in the so-called Track II where Nixon orders him "make the economy scream", part of the FUBELT plan to desestabilize Chile to make a coup, which was aldo part of an even bigger plot for state terrorism in the south of america, the Condon Plan)
was waiting for this one very much so
Destiny made disagree-noises in this debate
Before the corporate tax rate was lowered by trump, we had the third highest corporate tax rate on earth.
Saudi’s Arabia and the ducking CONGO were 1 and 2 if not mistaken
This debate was batchest AF!
The ESG score is used to identify investments that are in line with environmental and social progressiveness, so you're right, there are definitely investors putting money specifically towards those types of companies.
Social credit score. Blackrock takes it rather seriously from what I understand
Did this debate get uploaded on Vaush's channel as well? Can only find it on Eb's channel.
This was too funny, watched the whole thing lmao.
For my capstone class I remember seeing some research that suggested drug companies R&D spending is pretty sensitive to the money they can expect to make. The reason we don’t see a proportionally larger amount of American drug companies is becouase foreign research projects see just as much incentive from the higher American prices as domestic companies do. That said I do agree that a single payer pharmaceutical industry could work but only if the government is committed to providing significant monetary incentives, if it’s marketed as a way to save money research would probably slow globally.
I like the fact Econoboi bought up Botswana's pretty much disproves a lot of leftists talking points about countries in the global South. Moreover find the way lefties talk about countries in the global South really paternalistic and condescending. It is also slightly rich to complain about imperialism when you are trying to implement a western worldview (communism/socialism) onto the world.
wasnt communism and socialism eastern european though? the whole red scare thing?
Wish I knew which game was in the background. Looks like alot of fun.
53:00 Accumulating wealth doesn't mean that one side gets poor and the other side richer. Both sides can get more wealthy!
Wrong! All wealth is exploitation all property is theft! Nobody can have anything without forcibly taking it by force - unethically.
@Daniel Aykroyd stop, I can't handle all that wisdom at once!
@@willjapheth23789 you need to give away everything you own then donate all your organs to science or else you're just an imperialist fascist capitalist racist misogynist.
@@the_inquisitive_inquisitor Amen! Praise and glory be to collective ownership of property and of production!
@@willjapheth23789 That's right! Things that I don't personally own have been stolen from me! *GIVE ME BACK MY SHIT YOU SUBHUMAN THIEF!*
UA-cam puts this video in my recommendations every so often, and every time I see it, I see Steven with "E flat" next to him in the thumbnail and briefly think "oh, a Destiny video about music!", and then have the disappointment of realizing that I've been fooled again.
wouldn't the ultimate goal be for ethical practices to also be profitable? It seems really counter productive to write off every ESG investment as "just to further their capital" or "as a coverup for their bad deeds" when that shouldn't matter if it's helping people and the environment. If it is insanely profitable we should be GLAD it is bc that's another incentive for them to do right by their customers
Impossible capitalism is bad it could not possibly be used for good you're bad go to gulag now
i'm something of an expert on the tax field, i played a lot of city skylines
Holy fuck dude, it's almost like economics and most things issues solutions depends on a lot of shit. Damn my one lense analysis 100% of the time isn't a sufficient solution. Damn never thought
And here I thought the "submit yourself to the mob" guy would have more informed takes.
Big boi video
Canada is one of the most resource rich countries on the planet lol. The Canadian Shield was scraped clean by the last glaciation event and left a lot of incredibly valuable resources in easy reach.
A donation to a charity is a tax loophole? He needs to explain how this works. Oh, he thinks it's a tax loophole, but he doesn't know it yet.
When he begins to say irrelevant moral talking points instead of focusing on the real problem and solution, it is clear that he has not thought or explored those issues.
It is a tax loophole. Well more accurately, it can be. You should look into the homeless shelters in New York. The “loophole” is you give to your own charity, pay no tax on that contribution avoiding capital gains tax, use the contribution as a further tax deductible, then spend that money “for charity” however you see fit. Charities don’t need to disclose how they spend their money. This “charity money” can be used for political lobbying, buying favors through donations to institutions, etc.
You should know about an issue before you kneejerk and assume the opposite just because someone else doesn’t know either.
@@callowaymotorcompany You are talking about the charity. I am talking about the person who donates.
How does the person who donates save money?!? If you add everything up, he doesn't!
Damn it's almost like economics is more than 1 dimensional who'd a thought
I think destiny is wrong econboy looks really good compared to the v man.
Pipe down, lil man.
@@slime8177 shh
I can't hear anything
Vaush is so insecure it makes me sweat
Wish more of this kind of stuff was on the main channel tho I get people generally don't care
I mean, it's up to Botswana to diversify its economy. When they start investing in education, reforming, etc., they can diversify their economies as well.
@fdfxd2And that despite the evil capitalists.
Bro vaush always says the quiet part out loud lol
What game is this?
This is a good example of an instance where an intelligent person becomes so emotionally invested in being right, they begin to marginalize the contributions of the other person in the broader debate. Vaush is such a waste of talent.
Vaush is a disgusting slime person. Even if I didn't think he was a Secret Nazi he'd still be offensively smug and condescending. I change my positions to get further away from his.
I'd rather be wrong than agree with Vaush
All of Vaush's brain power is placed in mirroring what sounds like a good argument to 15 year old lefties.
It makes me so happy that people are starting to see Trash for what he is. On another note this dude amazing
smacking his lips ever 3 seconds is driving me mental.
i like this alot, econoboy is fun and like really brings a perfect structure for to elaborate and discuss economic ideas for them both
i disagree a bit with both of them (economics -> actuary -> machine learning engineer) but god damn if i do not enjoy this conversation
What game is Destiny playing?
Yeah corporate taxes are weird, b/c the money is basically double taxed, but the advantage is you can raise money while not having to actually raise personal income tax so voter will hate you less because they don't see the taxes coming out of their paycheques
What’s the game? It looks neat
Vaush isn’t a guy who actually wants change. He wants his reality to be the future. Getting real change means making compromises and constant strategy. Him talking on the internet gets no change done. He should be running for office. However sitting down all day does make him lots of money and then he gets to throw a charity livestream to make it seem like he is making a change.
Vaush "I don't have to do anything to be a good person because I'm a socialist" Whateverhislastnameis
he doesnt want change
he wants his reality to be the future
read that slowly
National security is highly tied to economic security through the National Security Council. Worth learning a bit about.
Sure i wouldnt be surprised if countries like Argentina criticise the IMF for putting strict conditions on their loans. Of course countries like argentina are going to want continued bailouts every year with no conditions on spending
I wonder how Vaush would react if co ops voted for less environmental regulations?
But but but... they wouldn't do that, they have no profit motive! They'd grow the minimum amount of crops possible until the population reaches equilibrium with the new supply.
What is the game he's playing
What game is destiny playing here?
3:24:00 with the super rich, could they even sell their assets without tanking the price of the asset? Like the market cap of Amazon is over a trillion, but if all of bezo's stocks were on the market, it would potentially tank.
What is the game? 🌚
Does Destiny have a discord server?
You can access his discord through his website
What game is he playing? I never bothered to look but I kinda wanna play it now lol
The Riftbreaker
59:08 I laughed so hard at this😂
How long has he had the dan voice?
You tax corporate profits to encourage them to spend. Without corporate taxes corporations would not buy as much stuff and just hold profits and that would not be good for the economy.
Imagine paying in the 80th percentile in a country and it being called “exploitation”
@24:00 Part of the Marshall plan outlined that the US would answer any and all calls to fight communism globally. This resulted in a grab bag of good and bad revolutions that the US supported. What I mean by this is that we ended up supporting some authoritarian leaders as well as some democratic leaders all in the name of fighting communism. This phase took place during the same time that left leaning people cite coups in many different countries. A lot of the social policy in south and central America was supportive of Marxism even if their governments werent explicitly Marxism Leninism. It's easy to see why the US might get involved if other leaders in these countries were asking the US for help due to the Marshall plan. The plan is also partially responsible for the 1953 Iran coup. The Iranian government had seized oil fields owned by the British. Apart from the seizure, there was worry over Iran selling oil to the Soviet union. I'm not making any moral claims over the events, I'm just explaining the climate in which this all happened.
guest: "amongst"
chat: sus
What game is Destiny playing? It looks like a 4x game? EDIT: Nevermind, did some research. It's Riftbreaker right? A new Factorio-like game.
thx for putting the game name in ur edit
9/11 caused a dip...in the New York skyline.
Vaush kept doing those Demon Mama faces. God hes so cringe the way he feels so smug getting his information off of wikipedia
Start calling him demon papa
The pentagon was also hit on 9/11
Often forgotten
how many chanles dose destiny have
He doesn't run the clip channels
Now is austerity good when everyone is saving due to a crisis? I don’t think so. Based on what happened in Europe after the recession anyway.
Income tax is the worst way to go. That mostly hurts the middle class.
Norway has the population of the Austin metro area…
Just why?
Edit: ok, ok, it’s twice the pop of austin metro
Lol right? We have CITIES with more people than some of these "socialist" countries
Don't tell Steven Ro Khana is friends with Kyle
How can Vaush honestly based his entire argument about the IMF, om a Wikipedia article?
corporate taxes are passed to the consumer 100%
Today I learned 3 more groups to be racist against. Thanks destiny.
Let me guess... The Irish, Italians and French Canadians?
vaush is so cringey it hurts, his fanbase is even worse...... Lol
1:40:08 I feel like sometimes Vaush is only listening to respond instead of actually hearing people and what they have to say. :/
34:15 I love the petty reactions
Im starting to think it's psychedelics why Destiny is more willing to change. And lack of them for Vaush. Can't be open to new ideas and change when the old workhorse ain't got that plasticity
you know you're about to be destroyed when someone quotes wikipedia
Many countries have grown thanks to their resources. Many European countries were rich in natural resources.
Maybe the main reason for companies to give to charity isn’t virtues but what vaush is arguing for here is essentially that companies take a virtue ethicists position
TIL lobbyists are immortal.
3 buildings (World Trade Center, North Tower and South Tower, The Pentagon in Washington DC and 4 planes. And an open field in route to the White House.
“Let’s Roll”
Rest in Peace
destiny learned how to make a mouth squish noise
There are other tools to tax people. For instance… money printing.
Kinda but then you can't target the cost by income level, number of dependents, etc
Corporate taxes don't really exist. Businesses just treat taxes they have to pay as a form of expense that drives up the cost of business and they simply raise the price of their goods and services until the profit (after tax) is where they want it to be. Consumers then buy these goods and services at a greater price than they would otherwise and are the people who suffer the tax. Corporate taxes are only used in this way to essentially stealth tax people more while pretending its taxing nasty evil businesses. It's not, it's a tax on you. If people knew how much tax they were really paying in total once you add up their contribution to corp taxes, plus income taxes, plus sales taxes and everything else, they'd be shocked at just how expensive the government really is.
0:24
Bodied
Wait, but econoboi doesn't actually answer how the imports turning into our service economy could possibly be 3-8 percent. That literally makes no sense.
Why would he respond to a question nobody asked? Timestamp?
The only time vaush "asks" is when he just flatly rejects the premise then keeps talking.
I didn't really pay attention but wasn't it the comparative advantage? Like labor from foreign economies is 3-8 percent cheaper than getting natives to produce.
But that seems low so idk
As I understood it, if foreign workers were payed the same as US workers (i.e the exchange in value is equal) there would be a 3-8% loss in US domestic product. The US would still trade and be able to specialize its economy, but has to pay more for foreign labour. This is why he kept using the phrase "unequal exchange", not simply trade.
There was a point where Econoboi realized Vaush was missing this and tried to explain, but Vaush just cut him off and doubles down on insisting he's wrong.
@@xXH3ll5xB3llXx That makes more sense. I think they were both missing each other. Made for a hard to follow conversation.
INCALCULABLE says the central planner
Iwish i could watch all of this but Vaush is so unnecessarily aggressive and cocky while equally wrong on so much.
That's all he ever does
It was so frustrating when V man was asking for a company doing the right thing and taking a hit to their bottom dollar.
My favourite sport in Formula 1 have set a path to be carbon neutral by 2030 and have done a tonne of investment into 100% sustainable fuel by use in 2026.
Im sure most petrol heads prefer the sound and speed of V8 engines buzzing around but thats not the case because of this corporations decisions.
It doesn’t even matter because if I was a company i would try my damnedest to minimize a bit to my bottle line while still staying relevant to the market. Does vaush honestly think companies aren’t trying to figure out how to go Carbon neutral without taking a hit. As long as they go net zero isn’t that the point?
There's always NASCAR