I failed and I am sorry, trying again to get rid of gas engineers making up their own regulations.
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Derek in this video tries again to get rid of misconceptions in IGEM/G/11 edition 2 unsafe situation procedure in gas.in this video we look at more scenarios of unsafe situations and classify them as AR, ID or NCS using the gas industry unsafe situation procedure IGEM/G/11.
Just wanted to thank you for your content & the time you take. Recently had a virtual inspection & it was a great help your quizzes etc. It’s a strange beast in a practical normal working day it’s almost second nature yet there’s something about written questions that always seem to throw me. Think it’s an age thing😊 So having visual examples as revision rather than just words really helped so cheers . Ps . I think it’s about time we got rid of At Risk & just made any fault an ID. After all we all know that when the customer sees your brake lights the label comes off & the gas gets put back on. It would also prevent the foreseen fault/poss loss of life occurring in the future & simplify the whole scenario. Anyone agree?
You are genuinely are an awesome guy. Keep doing what you're doing Derek. You're doing a fantastic job. I've been in this industry for a few years now and I have looked to your videos for guidance. Massive thanks from me. Hope you're having a great Bank Holiday 😉.
Quality vid once again Derek.
It does come down to judgement but reinforced by the regulations.
I generally fill in a Warning/ Advice notice to cover me, if AR or NCS...ID is clear enough..
The rule I use is does the appliance need any mechanical or user engagement when operating to make it dangerous or is it just dangerous without intervention..
As regards to the flues on the balcony... I recall it's one zone where 2 sides of the area are open. 1 side means appropriate flueing required...
Keep up the good work mate👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾
Thank you Derek that was some whacky situations😂 cleared a lot of things and puts things into perspective .
Agree with what you said Derek and all the scenarios in this video, at the end of the day it’s the engineers interpretation of the information, tests undertaken and experience, then it’s down to their judgement to decide on any relevant actions and unsafe classifications. I agree some people may be over cautious for fear of persecution or an over zealous Quality Assurance Engineer, personally I tend to use experience from investigations under the Gas Safety Management Regs utilising IGEM GL8, I will always be able answer as to why I have classified individual situations to the level I have. There will always be grey areas, the problem we have in the industry, is a lot of inexperience, and a lack of real time guidance for engineers who aren’t so confident, mainly because most people are rushed about to get certain targets met within the day. I was lucky, years ago if you were struggling there were always people you could talk to, or they would even come round to help with issues, a lot of that has now gone, time seems to be the biggest factor in the world today.
Re: The flue less than 300mm from opening window. Don't I recall an RGI going to prison after passing a flue near to a nailed shut window in a hotel. Somebody later un nailed the window, opened it and a fatality occurred. I suppose the question I am asking is " Can you guarantee that flue will never allow fumes into the window in all atmospheric conditions ? " Hmmm 🤔 . It could be you in court having to back your NCS decision up on a very sticky wicket. No inspector from HSE or Gas Safe, is going to defend you in the event of an incident. I'd suggest that in those circumstances..rightly or wrongly, most operatives would play safe and AR it. Who can blame them?
Great western hotel in Newquay. I work there with the new boilers now fitted. That flue always sticks in my mind when I’m servicing and for me I wouldn’t ncs it, it would be AR.
My thoughts exactly.
1. Derek! Congratulations on a fantastic video.
2. I fitted a combi where the flue could only terminate within 300mm of an openable fanlight pvc window. A gas safe inspector told me to remove the handle in shut position, block access to spindle receptor and stick a permanent notice warning the window must not be tampered with. I had to have a warning sticker made for this.
@@ghaderortakand6027 wow, that’s pretty much what they did at the great western. But the window got changed after a refurb. I would get that in writing or email. 👍
Awesome video and some amazing examples of different situations, crazy how that home owner modified flue is only AR it the book though.
I have to sayDerek, in the past when I was working and I came across open ended gas pipes, I automatically capped off gas pipes even if they were disconnected from the meter didn’t even think about it
Jon-Paul Ward I think I’ve seen this before but I didn’t comment. That self-build integrated air intake and exhaust flue is a howler!
Brilliant. And nicely explained. Even though I've seen many similar situations👌
Apart from Worcester bosch temporary flue conversion. My one was converted to rainwater pipe in a new extension 🙄👎
We all make mistakes, you really helped me with your cookers video. Top man respect
That homeowner special with the orange piping and plumbing piping is definitely ID, all I have to say is 😮. Can you say “Cross contamination?” 😂
Great content Derek thank you for your time and effort
Thanks Derek brilliant!!!. Keep them coming. William.
Most home owners are reasonable and appreciate advise . 99% would want me to put it right at cost .
i think its important to recognise that turn off or disconnect the result is the same if parts are available.... MAKE IT SAFE. offering to fix the situation where possible .
Re Bonding. BS7671 has always required equipotential bonding between simultaneously accessible conductive parts as a minimum. However for the gas engineer its a potential difference that can carry more than 30ma (@50v) that is a risk of a spark. So using the continuity bonding lead is a must even if there is no evidence of Main or supplementary equipotential bonding.
Will watch later tonight but no doubt it's quality info as usual!
Thanks Derek.
Fantastic video. Would love more . Thanks
Appliances which have serious flueing deficiencies are ID as mentioned in section 6.1. As you mentioned it's a non exhaustive list.
Great video Another problem is after saving there life ,you dont get paid .
Hi - at 4:30 regarding R reporting - form seems to say “has or is likely to” cause death or injury, and in this case after some years in place, there is no death, no injury and no leaks. One day it may leak for sure and needs a fix. Ok - watched more and answered my own question :)
Great video, i have my ACS reassessment on Monday so good revision…….think i got them all right 😁
Good luck let me know how you get on 👍🏻
@@tomkatgastraining all finished good for another 5 years 👍🏼 the reassessment has been streamlined now so i was able to complete in a day and a bit.
fabulous video again. I saw your video and learn lots. thanks
Hi derek
Love the video
Can you confirm on one of the slides, ref valliant boiler with collars and wood screws
Do those collar need screwed into air intake ??
Thanks again
Both the collars require the screws the manufacturer sends in the holes provided in the collars
Again Derek you take on the role of being some sort of enforcement officer. Being in the gas pipe game for 50 years both commercial and domestic, and in CORGI for many, many years then Gas Safe I am un-aware to being paid any sort of money from a now money spin government body to actually put myself on the line to mess with half the stuff you see, and as everyone had to buy my own report books to write it up and not get paid for that either. I am not to sure where we became the unpaid eye's for the old gas boards. Maybe you do? I have been in situations to call the board in to cut the supply off in the road, where the owner was playing King of his castle, that alone was about 3 hours of waiting and who paid me? No one.
Great to report as Riddor. However, looking at the state of the pipework it may have been put in 20 years ago. Doubt you'd ever find out who fitted the plastic fitting. Just fix and charge accordingly.
You still need to report it even if you just fix it
My latest engineer was disgraceful. I had to get gas safe involved
Hi Derek can you point me to where i can find that banding is not suitable for supporting? Cheers for the video easy to follow and ideal for a refresh
@@Musafrabad101 the manufacturers instructions for the flue system
Should be able to riddor anonymously imo. Can be very awkward to report someone from your local area, but we need to get rid of these 🤠
I would have catagorised the bodge valliant flue system as terminating into an internal space and ID on that basis. The official terminal is inside the room, circulating poc back into the air intake
Good point, although the acid test would be: is there more that 10ppm co being discharged into the room. Another viewpoint to explore: i winder if we could ID this based on departure from the Manufacturers Instructions! Any comment?
If you have not got a copy of IGEM/G/11 edition 2 go get one or you may not pass your virtual mini ACS erm I mean your new virtual gas safe inspection.
Tbh with the flue to close to the widow I'd AR it yes on the day you tested it all was ok but what about a windy day. I get fed up of seeing stuff installed incorrectly from day one.
Nope ncs all day long on that one…..a balance flue may be a different story but again it’s engineers judgement. I’d feel comfortable leaving it you may not. It’s those who don’t see or evaluate the risk are the problem.
@@richard8303 the flue is not installed according to manufacture instructions on the day tested all may be fine but there's an obvious risk hence why manufacturers give a distance. I continually see flues being installed incorrectly and installers know they can get away with it as it's only going to get NCS .
@@gazmondo1971 I don’t disagree with you at all but we need to look ‘At (the) Risk to the customer In individual circumstances, and deliver the right advice to the customer. Manufacturers now allow for certain distance to be reduced if all other clearances are met, if you believe there is a risk to that customer then you can only do what you think is right. But I believe that there is also an issue with certain engineers scaring customers into new boilers.
Over exaggerating a safety concern is as bad as under exaggerating a safety concern in my opinion.
The good thing is I can tell you care about your job. I’ve actually gone to jobs which I’ve been to in the past and changed my mind in the safety situation I’ve previously left it in and gone from ncs to AR either because circumstances have changed or maybe because I missed certain factors on the day.
The important thing is to be always looking and improving. You won’t always make the right call but you won’t be far out.
Thanks for tackling this tricky subject 👍🙏
So strange see David robbins commenting my brother is called David 😂
2 Bs. Are better than one. Lol
hi Alan great content as usual just 1 question in your video you mentioned that a flue within 300mm of a opening and providing their is less than 10ppm with window open this is ok which makes sense but can you tell me were this information is best regards keep up with the great content ash134
They always say its up to the engineer that's why I always air on the side of caution if I get it wrong and need to un cap or turn somthing back on so be it
Im new to this just started learning so obviously you know best but i would of thought the fire wi the flex pipe would of been ID i get what your saying but what if the tennant decides the want the fire a little closer pulls it out then the products of combustion would be entering the room ?? I know its probably not likely to happen but you get some silly people about
Brilliant 😊 thanks for your efforts 👍
Re earth bonding with plastic pipe, did you notice the distinction that the metallic pipes inside the building don't need bonding (but the copper pipe leaving the meter presumably still does)?
If plastic pipe feeds an external box and the copper pipe is not in contact with earth or wall structures as it would be sleeved in plastic thru walls then typically it does not need bonding.
Great..Thanks Derek
We might as well at risk the flexible tap connector if theres no escape , just like the flue extended with soil pipe . Both senarios are bad workmanship ,incorrect materal used both riddor .
What happens If you cant prove who as done the work and is happy for me to make it safe by fitting the instalation to standards ?
plastic fitting on on gas pipe, ID, but would I RIDDOR... all the extra paperwork and time .. nope 😅 just take the fitting off. charge customer an extra 30 mins, job done
Soon as this video came up, i thought i was gonna get called out 🤣
So when you spot all those other flue terminals under the semi-enclosed covering, is it your responsibility to do anything about them? You can AR or ID the one you're inspecting of course, but what about the others? If you walk away, in theory you're leaving an unsafe situation.
How many times have you removed an oven on first visit and the tenant says no one has ever removed that! 🙈
And you believe them ? I've had that said to me and I've replied " yes they did because it's been me for the last two years and I definitely removed it here's my initials and date in pencil " gas fire..bbu...cooker, you name it, half of them are in fairy land 🤣🤣
I get that with every gas fire I've ever been to aswell 🤣
The vented soffit is to close
Thanks
Thank you 🙏
Good job 👍👍👏👏
👍👍
I agree with everything you saying thanks for the video
Thought there was no only TWO categories now , unsafe . At risk
Awesome video as always.
Top guy 👦 👏
❤
Out of interest how do meter fitters who come across these situations deal with some of these? When they don’t have the equipment to do the ppm sweep?
They are told to disc the meter if they think there are any faults and then they advise for a gas engineer to check it
I'd put that bodged flue down as inappropriate gas fitting. Flue emissions are a gas that can kill. Disconnect lol
Hi Derek that guys talking out of his arse, that flue pic is not AR its been in that property for years, no products are coming back in either.
👍 Sue Warrington
pic with the flues in the gunnel .if you were to secure the windows shut ,then no gases could enter the building.i wouldnt see anything wrong with the installation.
Gas cooker connection at risk the plastic is dangerous the gas connection for gas cooker must allow the hose to hang in a lazy u
Hi TomKat what's the situation if you come across a black cooker hose from a bayonet going to a gas Hob only ?
PS it's not a landlords property.
Cooker hoses are allowed on hobs unless the MIs specifically say you can’t.
There’s a TB covering it and it was in RGE some months ago. I was surprised as it’s not what I was taught but it’s definitely correct. I phoned GS to confirm. 😁
@@edmetcalfe8974 Thanks for that great information I will try and find the MI
The criteria given with regard to RIDDOR reports to the HSE is clear ie, that both 1 AND 2 need to be met. So if 1 is met and if the second criteria is likely to or has caused death, unconsciousness, taking to hospital ect. Then report to HSE if not then, report to the person responsible.
How to gas rate u16 and r5 meter can you make vid on it imperial and metric 3 digit and 2 digit please.
Already have
@@tomkatgastraining Have you got the link
@@b1h2u3p4 ua-cam.com/video/KMVrdlDScTU/v-deo.html
I think it’s in this one if not check out the play list on the channel
@@tomkatgastraining Thanks does it cover u16 meter metric and imperial.
🤘😎🤘
Not to current standards don’t exist no more it AR or ID
Sorry you are incorrect you still have to notify NCS to the responsible person but not on the warning notice
@@tomkatgastraining no we both correct advice to customer/gas user is not recordable on certs misunderstanding.
Mate those two butched flues have to be ID seems like the rules have loop holes
ALL Room sealed appliances have to be sealed... If its missing seals where wires come through technicaly its ID not AR...
What’s the immediate danger?
Any room sealed appliance needs to be fully sealed or it’s a danger
This is simple stuff shouldn’t be working on gas if your at risking missing seals on room SEALED appliances
@@bubbagun3576 Where cables pass through the case they’re called grommets, not seals.
I suggest you check this “simple stuff” with Gas Safe. There is a risk of POCs escaping the case where the grommet is missing. If they’re not escaping right now, it’s not ID.
Gas Safe agree with me and so do appliance manufacturers, so your “should not be working on gas” statement makes you look a bit daft. 😄
Alternatively, you could just look at GIUSP section 7.2, bullet point 3, which specifically covers what we’re talking about and confirms what I’ve said.
So you would at risk it if poc’s are not escaping right now? Ffs I guess you work for your self right?
and would the HSE investigate a plastic fitting .. 🤣 no.. so what a waste of time doing the RIDDOR, been on the tools 25 years, have never RIDDOR anything
I would have kept that quiet 🤫
@@tomkatgastraining ahh yes 😉 we all do everything by the book 😉😉😇
The flue proximity is a very common scenario, NCS can be appropriate, ascending to ID.
My view was that flue was AR.
It's easy to remove ourselves (gas engineers) from future atmospheric scenarios, boiler combustion issues.
Ultimately , common sense must prevail.
Landlords dodgy work, ID and RIDDOR, If I don't get paid, small price to pay for gas safety.
Every Gas Safe installer should have a copy of Ninth Edition (IGEM/G/11_2ND EDITION.
I wonder why people that aren't engineers keep calling themselves engineers?
We don't but gas safe and ultimately the hse ie the government do
I still don't get why back in the 1960's, a GPO employee who would set the dial speed, adjust the gaps on a dialling cam, strip down and lubricate the dial and generally overhaul a telephone was called a 'technician' whereas today's telephones are not serviceable and the person who comes and connects the Openreach A and B wires to a master socket is called an 'engineer'. As far as I'm concerned (and I'm backed up by historical usage), an engineer designs boilers, cars, telephones, and a technician or mechanic services them.
Otherwise I'd take my van to an automotive engineer to have the oil changed. Just a thought!
I understand there is a crossover in that a Registered Gas Installer might design a heating system, but as he or she is generally working to standard industry practices rather than truly inventing new and radical solutions, I feel the term 'engineer' is best not used in these circumstances... otherwise how do we differentiate between the people that paint the bridge on the gorge at Bristol from Brunel who designed the bridge (in a way that nobody had done before)?
@@johnbull5394 Exactly. The degradation of the title has led to a loss of understanding of what engineers do and this in turn has led to a loss in trust, since there are so many dodgy "engineers" fixing washing machines that fail again a week later. This has brought the title into disrepute and has impacted on the intake into professional engineering courses to the extent that there's now a shortage of real engineers. Terms like engineer and architect used o be protected in the same way that "solictor" and "doctor" are protected but something went wrong along the way.
I always wanted to be famous. 😁
Me too Ed we can be famous together 😂 thanks for your comment I enjoyed the chat 👍🏻
@@tomkatgastraining 😆 me too. It would be a boring world if we all agreed all the time.