THE SHOULD'VE-BEEN SHOWRUNNER (Thin Ice ft. MadMcgann)
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- He arises from the dead and plunges straight into a pure historical. Thin Ice was the template.
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She Should've Been The Next Showrunner... (Thin Ice ft. MadMcgann)
12 in Rosa would have gone full on end of _Family of Blood_ on Krasko.
Series 10 just being one series and not a whole run in and of itself is a goddamn crime.
He lost this for Chibnall. FOR CHIBNALL.
Amazing episode. I really like the Pete gag in the begginning, messing with Bill's naive character (and have seen people like it too), but the line that goes something like
"-But anything we do here could change the future. "
- "Exactly like any other day of your life. Enjoy!"
I absolutely love how quick and matter-of-fact it is and now I'm wondering why the hell isn't this idea in previous episodes of New Who. Like, why... You can both have fun in the past without worrying about consistence in this time-travel show, and fight for change or do something you want with your life in your own time too.
I wouldn't describe myself as a series 10 apologist as I don't believe it has anything to apologise for. It's a great run and this is a great episode.
Revisiting this story really highlights the political centre shift in the recent series from the RTD & Moffat eras. Chibnall's 13th being so passively silent when injustices are said/committed in her presence, then loosing her shit into moralising monologues toward people proactively (if misguidedly) trying to help themselves. Guess they arent on top of the heiracical "team structure" she's so proud of.
The best way I heard 13's passivity towards injustice described was that she was the "Brexit Doctor" and I think if you need to boil it down to two words to describe the story and character direction of the time, that's as succinct as you can get. Doctor Who is the British Star Trek in that it can *only* reflect the politics of the time and the people writing it. It sucks, but that's the nature of science fiction as a whole.
@@MoonLitChildscience fiction is inherently a reflection of ideals either good or bad or at least science fiction that doesn’t use its premise for more than just set dressing
Capaldi is by far my favorite Doctor, and I really like what you said about being able to feel his empathy in this story. While I do love McCoy, what I really appreciate about Capaldi's take is that he was able to do the whole "darker and more alien" thing while still highlighting that sense of kindness and empathy that the Doctor should always have. His performance is one of the main reasons Series 8 through 10 is peak Doctor Who for me.
FACTS
"If she took that flyer, Stevie Wonder may not have been able to know where the fair is..."
How do we break it to Jack that Mr Wonder isn't reading any of the flyers? o_O
_"But you must never tell him!"_ man thought he was in up-state Manhattan
@@nightowl8477 "up-state Manhattan"
?
Glad to see this series back, would love to still do one on Twice upon a Time at some point, whenever you're schedule is good of course.
I absolutely agree that Sarah Dollard is a major showrunner who got away (probably my top). Journey both right that she’s great at that sense of place, but for me it’s how there’s this whimsy that’s less fairytale and more fae fantasy: there’s always more going on around events, not in a lore building or traditional narrative way but in a sense of enormous potential just beyond what you’d assume to be going on just beyond your perception (like the two face refugees in Face the Raven). Even as more of a Sci-Fi than fantasy I find the feel of her stories so rewarding and excited, and I wish we could’ve seen more of her take on the show.
Thin Ice is my favorite episode of the revival. Fingers crossed RTD taps Dollars to contribute another script
One day I will get a good mic and figure out a good communication set up JUST so we can talk about Hell Bent.
I have many Doctor Who thoughts and no one wants to hear them.
I wish you luck in your journey to find alien bodies, I was lucky enough to get a copy for 20 bucks a little while ago at goodwill. It’s a fantastic book :)
MY GOD!
ive always said capaldi is the perfect blend of docs 1, 2, and 3.
You hit the nail right on the head there, with it feeling like the newest series. It's my comfort series and feels so fresh and for good reason. There's just some aura to it that escaped any other series and remains it's own little glimpse into a world where Doctor Who was all Series 10s...
It's interesting that Jack says he's a Series 10 apologist as I always got the impression that Series 10 was generally quite beloved
I remember a joke that DWM made when it did it's Fact of Fiction segment on this episode. It suggested that the story the Doctor told about Pete was true, and the reason an Elephant came charging at them, I think in the stinger to the previous episode (I didn't double check or anything) is actually trying to warn them not to step outside so Pete wouldn't get erased, because an elephant never forgets. It's mostly pretty dumb, but that last bit taking 'an elephant never forgets' to it's most extreme interpretation in the Whoniverse sounds like it would make for a neat short story
Well we do find out this season that crows remember.
@@SamyulDavis More than that, crows have _racial memory._ They remember across generations.
In terms of how different Doctor’s would react if placed in “Rosa” to the racism in it.
3: A stern telling off followed by some Venusian Akido
4: *offers a jelly baby then trios them with his scarf*
9: Some very angry words: “And with that sentence you just lost the right to even talk to me now BACK OFF!”
10: “He wrapped the racist in unbreakable chains forged in the heart of a dwarf star.”
12: *Punches*
13: Oh well, guess this is how it is here 🤷🏾♂️
10 joins in
I ain't forgetting family of blood
Re: Punching The Racist: -- Old Doctor, with the way he's characterized (I'm thinking Two and Four, specifically) still kind of had the (specisism?) of the Time Lords. He admired humans, but the unstated reason (taking a Doylist approach) as to why he admired the British so much is that they had a lot of the same attitudes towards other races as the Time Lords did towards other non-Time Lord species. Two and Jamie clash a lot (moreso in Big Finish, where there's time to elaborate on it) about the British subjugation of the Scottish and the way other Time Lords act towards Leela at first is a pretty big yikes. But anyone who watched Doctor Who after the Fourth Doctor who was *surprised* he punched a racist has not been watching the same show as the rest of us. My only other thought on it was that they already covered this ground with Martha, but with the number of people who loudly proclaimed to stop watching after Tennant left the role, I guess justifies treading it again.
yeah family of blood, while a good story, makes me so uncomfortable with the racism martha experiences. I think it just feels like very unfair treatment compared to any other companion, why does she need to work physical labour for months instead of getting fun adventures in space? why would the doctor choose this time period and subject martha to any of this? it just feels like in adapting the seventh doctor story they forgot about how that story changes with a black companion.
Hell yeah! Thin Ice is a legit masterpiece, captures the show’s entire appeal perfectly and is peak characterization for 12, much like the rest of series 10.
Minus that forced racism scene with Bill i agree really solid
@@legendg219because racism didn’t exist in the Victorian era?
@@Dreadwing1000 It did but you wouldn't believe it considering most of the extras were black and non white which is historically inaccurate in itself so really he didn't have any reason to say that as he would have been used to seeing black people around.
Well, this is a love-in. Can't argue, though.
What did Mark Gatiss say in the time? I don't want to subscribe to the Times to read the article lol
I beg to whatever deity I have to for Russell to bring Sarah back I need more of her scripts.
So Sam, have people come to a decision on whether the destruction of twt is intentional or through sheer incompetence? (Like firing all of your employees.)
So long as he's not a relevant figure in my life anymore, i'm happy with either.
I totally agree that Doctor Who should highlight it's locations more. If I ran the series, my Doctor would be an outdoorsy adventurer type. The stories would be predominantly set outside, with the TARDIS crew interacting with landscapes, wildlife and people (alien and human) in a more tactile and visceral way.
Next thing you know, someone's going to mail you Alien Bodies with their ears.
I can hope
I liked Thin Ice, but haven't rewatched it since. After watching this video maybe I should. I'm on the fence about the punch. I have no problem with the sentiment behind it but almost wish the Doctor had done something wittier and maybe even timey-wimey-ier, rather than an act of violence we can and do see regularly on any other show. Something to make the punch-ee rethink his world view rather than the apparent take-away of learning to "read the room" before running his mouth.
I too liked the just wandering around a bit in the first act. That hasn't been done nearly enough in the modern series.
Slightly off-topic but Capaldi's second & third series "aging punk" costume is one of my favorite Doctor costumes, ever. The "magician" thing felt too up-tight, calculated and deliberate, but then again so did Capaldi's Doctor in his first series. I guess part of 12's arc was loosening up a bit and finding his own thing rather than the aggressively "Anti-Matt Smith" thing he had going in his first series.
I love Thin Ice. One of my favorite episodes in S10. I think the scene of Bill confronting the Doctor is one of the best Doctor/Companion scenes. I agree that 12's Human Industry speech is very underrated. Capaldi absolutely killed it with the monologues. We wouldn't have the version of 12 in S10 without his experiences in S8 and 9. Character-wise, his era is brilliant. Sarah Dollard's 2 episodes were both incredibly written with fantastic character moments for the main characters. I wish she had written more episodes.
Also, I completely agree and love that you highlighted the empathy that you can see in 12. So often he just simply is described as grumpy. There is so much more there.
I’ll be honest, I do kind of cringe at the punch. I don’t even know why it just seems really forced. It’s in character for 12, but something about it just rubs me the wrong way for a reason I can’t really put into words
5:32 Sam apparently blacked out during the cringiest scene of Vampires of Venice, where Rory immitates a jedi as a threat.
Rory has absolutely seen Star Wars, and absolutely hates Rey.
Rory Williams helped to release the Snyder Cut, change my mind.
Nah, he would of been sent back in time before Snyder even made any capeshit (or disney made anything star wars for that matter) , and Rory never showed anything that would hint he is interested in superheroes bar being dorky, and the pond era is like literally right before capeshit took over pop culture . I think discussing companions media tastes is interesting, I feel this would be out of character for Rory, the only hint we get to what he watches is him being a big laurel and hardy fan at the start of impossible astronaut, his personality, especially post series 5 feels far too level headed and removed from escapism to be massively into either of those fandoms
@@rennythespaceguy7285 - not buying it. He saw Watchmen, learnt all the wrong lessons, and made 11 takw him to the "snyder timeline."
I now have an image of 11 saying "no", cut against The Girl Who Waited's "Then I do NOT want to travel with you!!", throwing his Clark Kent cosplay glasses on the floor
@@nightowl8477 Rory is _not_ canonically a Gamer. (Funnily enough, only Yaz, Ryan, and Mickey are wrt the Doctor's companions. Wow. Truly the most oppressed class.)
Location, costuming and the Doctor punching a racist.
Thin Ice would have been a great return for the Meddling Monk
I like the guest in this one, he should be on it more. :p
12 does allot punching what can u do
Attempt number 2...
We're in the clear.
S10 is brilliant, but I’ll why Moff rebooted the show in his last season before Chib was obvious going to reboot it. I guess he was just bored? There’s an argument that he kinda reboots the show every season (for better or for worse, looking at you S7) but this one feels the most deliberate and definitely the most thought through
I’ll *never understand why
He's futureproofing it for the next guy! As do most of his finales and arc maintenance past S7.
Are you ever going to re-upload the time monster?
Its live!
@@SamyulDavis It is? That's great but... Where?
@@carealoo744 oh i guess it got blocked, thanks for bringing that to my attention
@@SamyulDavis Okay:) yeah I didn't know if you noticed- I loved it though, hope you can bring it back:)
this episode is actually a blackwash if you think historically, the amount of black extras is just not historically accurate at all. Victorian london was almost entirely white. there is one man who seems to have a black wife and that would not be acceptable then at all. Im not saying it was good that it was entirely white, it just was almost entirely white. the whole line that regency england was more black is a LIE and i honestly don't know why they did it, historical revisionism gets us nowhere.
"We've kind of got to tell a lie. We'll go back into history and there will be black people where, historically, there wouldn't have been, and we won't dwell on that.
We'll say, 'To hell with it, this is the imaginary, better version of the world. By believing in it, we'll summon it forth'."
-Steven Moffat
@@najawin8348 I Really like steven moffats work but that was a load of nonsense. things only get better when you acknowledge reality
@@pigeon_the_brit565 can't help but think I address this in-video with the Pirates comparison.
@@SamyulDavis I don't remember seeing that in the video. could you point out the minute mark? EDIT: i remember now, but onhestly i don't think its good enough. He actively draws attention to the extras, and the show seems to want to pretend this is actually how it was, and there will be some who trust the episode, and assume it is historically acurate, and its weird because it seems to be what the moff actually intended to happen and it leaves a bad taste it the mouth. escapism is one thing, lying to your audience is another
@@Call-Me-I Here you raze a good point. Iam kind of upset, because i find the contrary sides of him, the bigot and the hero and the possible war criminal and the imperialist fascinating, and iam not aware of any piece of fiction that shows him as a complicated person at all. We should be onhest with ourselves, as onhest as possible if we are to move forward, although obviously its a tv show so it has to be entertaining. I hope something like this is done in the future, because im sure Russel T davies might want to try, and i could see him getting it right.
He went for the billion lmaooo
?
@@SamyulDavis - you said it, I'm quoting you
Which bit? Brain bad
@@SamyulDavis - the fun y joke. The funny one
7:10