Did Tudor Outshine Rolex at Watches and Wonders? - The Watch Nuts Horological Musings Episode 3
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- Опубліковано 10 кві 2024
- Rob and I ramble about the recent watch announcements from Rolex and Tudor, and how we feel the Shield is outshining the Crown. Are these seemingly different focuses a note of what to expect more of? Let me know what you think below!
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Great conversation Bruce. Always fun to freestyle with you
You hit the nail on the head - for Rolex, the margin on the common stainless steel watches is not high and honestly, Rolex wants to compete against the likes of AP and Patek. Who are the three most demanded watch brands in the world? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not the target market for Rolex anymore, 20 years ago, sure, but now? No way.
I think you said it well
Rolex is responding to the Bruce Williams of the world by offering solid gold everything! But seriously, I think they are trying to use the pent-up demand to push Rolex lovers even further up market into very expensive luxury pieces. And as the prices go up, the folks who can’t afford them, or can’t get them, will still buy from Tudor and so give them their money anyway!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Or buy the Tudor for the Sub that the AD's won't offer them. Which is why this is a 3rd of the price actually if you buy a Submariner used. So you get a New almost better then a Submariner for a 3rd of the price, new, and then the money you would spend on a Rolex you actually spend on a real watch such as holy trinity or other high end brand.
The idea that "nobody is asking" Rolex is laughable .. because even if we were asking , we cannot buy it.
You guys have a hand on the pulse of the marker. Tudor is filling the gap of the former Rolex, and Tudor is very attune to clients' wishes. Good job--and the Jubilee band is gorgeous.
Like many people, I am more interested in the moves Tudor is making than I am with Rolex.
Enjoyed this and agree on all points. As someone who regrets selling his 14060 back in the day, the monochrome BB will be a perfect replacement. Rolex is a precious metal company at this point and Tudor is the new Rolex. That's by design, by Rolex.
According to Jean-Frederic Dufour (CEO of Rolex) is distraught over all the secondary market dealers, investors, flippers, and the hype, which have sullied their brand recently. People from all walks of life are still their target group with their mass-produced watches but with an upmarket twist. Their strategy forward is to let the sister brand take over the space Rolex had just 10 yesrs ago.
Agreed! Rolex still has to sell a TON of watches a year to maintain revenue. Going up-market drives revenue growth but can’t be relied on because it’s a much smaller market. Rolex sells more watches than anyone else. By a lot. So they do still need to sell to the masses.
Rob and Bruce are the best duo since Ben Clymer and John Mayer got together. Truly enjoying every episode! Thank you!
You are way too kind. Thanks for watching
What Rolex wants to do doesn’t mean there’s a will to pay for it for most of their customers.
Heard on one of the channels that Rolex wants to clear the waitlist since it’s damaging the brand. Hence, introduce high end models to stop the waitlists from repeating in cycles. Makes sense.
Interesting, they would have to eliminate most steel sports or bump up production of the Daytona, gmt 2, etc.
I played the AD game once. Legit non-watch purchase and several repairs and quickly got my no-frills Datejust. My next DJ was vintage off Chrono. Doubtful I'll ever play the waitlist datelist again. I agree, the "Exhibition Only" window nonsense is a brand killer.
I love my Tudor Black Bay - and I love their Oyster bracelet for that watch- the rivets are both totally fine and barely even noticeable!
I wore the rivets on the panda chrono. They were fine. Admittedly something little to complain about. But it could be better!
Great conversation guys on the direction of both brands…wondering what’s your take on where Carl Bucherer brand will be positioned now that it is part of Hans Wilsdorf
great point, I'll make sure that @BruceWilliams and I speculate on that topic in a future video.
There are a lot of videos and thoughts on Tudor beating Rolex. I think it’s short sighted for folks out there to believe that there is no corporate strategy between the two companies. Rolex knows the demand will be there for their steel watches and can consume all of their supply production with market demand. Why leave any unfulfilled demand on the table… push them to Tudor. Why even bother making a Rolex Coke when you can sell all of your other GMT variants? Increase sales and market share on Tudor. It’s a brilliant corporate strategy.
I just cant do Rolex for the cost.
Omega life! I got a speedy racing 40mm/seamaster 300m for under 8K brand new/papers. Cebu rolex tried selling me a 31mm datejust for my lady at 8.2k. Crazy.
You’re not the target audience then. Rolex has definitely moved upmarket in the last 5 or 6 years, and Tudor is filling up the gap it’s left
@omarion07 Tudor isnt it. You are definitely right, I like value for my watches. Army Officer pay aint pulling Rolex money.
I will stick with Omega.
@@TheBrah808I don’t blame you. TUDOR is a one trick pony and a fake ROLEX 😂😂😂😂 NEVER LISTEN TO UTUBERS. They forget to tell the truth.😂😂😂 TUDORS numbers were down last year because it is a ONE TRICK PONY 😂😂😂😂
@@omarion07TUDOR IS A ONE TRICK PONY AND A FAKE ROLEX 😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@SIZZO76well. The one trick isn’t bad though. Tudor hold value better than omega.
Loving the collab videos. Thanks
Thanks so much for watching. These are quite fun to do
@@SaltyWatchCollector you’re welcome
Love your channel Bruce . Keep the reviews coming 👍😁
I have a one year vid on the rolex day date, all the scuba fifty fathoms, a ramble about watches and wonders hits and misses, and a microbrand called unidesign watch Co waiting to upload. About 20 vids right behind those that I'm still editing/prepping
I’m definitely going for the 58 GMT
Nice vid. I like the rivets on the Tudor bracelets. It adds some interest in what would otherwise be a somewhat boring three link design and it really fits well with the retro design of the watches. Having said that, I would LOVE to see the five link on the BB58 GMT !
Tudor not releasing a blue Pelagos 39 was a major missed opportunity
That would have been a great release for sure
Smaller gmt movements open up for a gmt pelagos. I’d rather have that than just a color change.
Great video Bruce! Black Bay 58 GMT for the win. I hope they do a non gilt variant next!
Great video and discussion. I really love where Tudor is going and the line up they are building!
Great conversation. Spot on.
Tbis is the W&W discussion that I’ve been waiting for to be honest. U gents delivered yet again, thanks!
Edit: that Willard on bracelet looks great on Bruce
Appreciate that!
@@BruceWilliamsalways worthwaiting for you two’s discussion. Might be a couple of days longer than the others but boythe discussion is packed with so many valuable takes. No one highlighted the fact that all of Rolex’ releases are $40K+ bar one. It now makes so much sense to me why Rolex has seemed to allow Tudor to release watches that are getting more and more comparable to their Rolex counterparts. They still nerf’d it in some aspects (heavy gilt markers and no jubilee on the BB58 GMT, thicker 41 mm Blackbay relative to the modern Sub) but theyre so much closer now.
@GrumblingForesight again, thank you! I agree a 5 link on the 58gmt would have been amazing. I feel they can't go wrong in offering that bracelet on all the BB references. One hypothetical reference I would love to see is a root beer gmt on two tone 5 link. Champagne sunray dial. Sign me up now!
I own Rolex watches and love them. My favourite is the original Black Deepsea which is bonkers and epic in equal measure. But even I who loves the Deepsea and has a big wrist to wear one thinks that the Gold Deepsea is moronic. Honestly I am bored of Rolex now. They want us to buy their products but don’t make things that their customers actually want? I hope there will be enough Saudi Sheikhs, Russian Oligarchs and Chinese mob bosses to be able to buy the 1.5 million watches they are going to make with their new factory coming online his year…..
Love the BB58 gmt. Nice watch, and will definitely get one. Will wait about a year/year and a half before i pull the trigger. Until then, I can get it below retail and will be more readily available.
Great repartee guys. Rolex to me is less focused (interested?) on elevating brand awareness than tuned into strategic additions that are both unexpected and aesthetically additive. At a premium! Tudor's accessibility, compelling price points at near Rolex quality and customer-centric releases makes them all the more popular and desirable. The appeal of their catalogue is undeniable. What surprised me was Tudor's 18k gold Black Bay at a, do I dare say it, Rolex-like price. Man, that says something if you have the coin and chose a gold Tudor. Curiously, I own the Tudor Black Bay Bronze Boutique Edition and maintain it looks like soft rose gold and crazily comparable to the new BB 58 18k. Without the $30k outlay. To sum, both brand's releases are terrific and offer enough dreaming for any of us.
I think the BB41 is just a better looking watch than the Sub. The rehaut, aluminum bez, no guards. Killer. Love Rolex but I'd go BB41 side by side regardless of price or brand status.
🧢 CAP😂😂😂😂
@SaltyWatchCollector always provides wonderful insight!
He's great. Thoughtful and entertaining
you're too kind brother.
@@SaltyWatchCollector it's the absolute truth brother. You're a hidden gem of the community and Bruce has scooped everyone having you on.
@@BruceWilliams thanks for letting him shine!
No one outshines the Crown period
Lol rolex fan boy
Interesting. But will be hard to sell the volume they will have with an additional factory coming on line. Not sure enough customers for watches that are $15k plus. It also seems all brands are creeping up in price. And remember that the platinum 1908 is under $40k too.
Very salient point about purchasing a Tudor " coke" gmt with Metas certification and a Seamaster for the same price as a " sub".
I love my Pelly and 54! Oisin put out a video recently about this- and I think I really agree with him. Rolex does their own thing and that's a good thing---- I think.
Is Rolex slowing moving away from stainless steel and going to focus only on precious metal in the future? Moving the waiting queue to Tudor?
what a nicely planned move, making Tudor for the mass and Rolex trying to go for the exclusive where the money are, targeting both markets. it seems all the reviews does exactly in their favour. After all, money goes to the same pocket.
Oooo...Tudor METAS with a 5 link bracelet? Omega fanboy here, so I never thought I'd say this, but now Tudor BB is on my list...
Realistically, 99.9% of us are not going down >200M...so.that's enough reason to sell a 2018 Omega SMP to help finance a Tudor METAS 5 link BB...
The hunt begins...looking forward to a new Tudor BB METAS 5 link braclet addition...
Solid point. Even if you go scuba diving, no one is going below 30m. 200 is more than enough
That Coke GMT is more like Coke Zero GMT.
Tudor = Rolex , Rolex is going to all precious metals just like Patek!
My next watch will be the BB58 GMT or the Spirit Zulu Time GMT.
Both great options
Rolex is trying to move upmarket (like Patek) that its why they incentivize the sale of all gold pieces at the ADs but reserve the sale of the desired steel models.
Rolex should be putting out at least something the fans want since they are the face of the luxury watch market. They continue to represent such a cringeworthy aspect of the industry. Just zero effort into these releases. And honestly just overall no excitement for the industry. They act like the fat king who can care less to please his people
Tudor sales is less than 10% of Rolex's. In order for Rolex to move up the ladder, they need Tudor sales to increase significantly, so that brands like Omega and Longinees don't fill the void left by them. I'm surprised Tudor did not release more models, honestly.
Lol
They are certainly growing at an impressive rate. Just 10 years ago they were pretty much a joke of a brand. What a trajectory
No, because other brands did especially the more select ones unlike the mass produced Rolex and Tudor.
Haha hard to compare mass produced and hand made products.
Buying brand new Tudors at up to 50% discount off RRP is a no brainer, from the profile builders who need to spend money in order to get their Rolexes 😊
I think all the new Tudor releases are very nice. I may be buying a Pelagos this summer, but if I weren’t, I would consider the new “Diet Coke.
PS: I own a current Deepsea (black dial), and if I could afford it, I would rock that solid gold Deepsea all day. I think it’s a cool piece.
As would I Scott lol
Rolex does not make what people want, people want what Rolex makes., that is the way it is and always will be, or stop being number 1. Greetings.
That is well said
I really don’t see the attraction to a brand that is now more than ever just trying to remake very old Rolex designs . I actually liked Tudor more when they were trying to be their own brand with their own designs . I understand why they’ve gone down this route but in the long run I don’t think it will benefit the brand . As for Rolex watches if their customers can be convinced adding a different bezel to an existing piece makes a “new “ watch then Rolex owners are dumber than their infatuation with the brand appears . Look at Vacheron , that is a proper brand proper watch maker .
Bring back the north flag!
@@SIZZO76 Tudor aka no original ideas
@@markdance574 I’m in agreement my friend. Just a bunch of utubers hyping the brand because they are all on TUDORS PAYROLL 😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@SIZZO76 possibly- I think as a watch fan it’s great to see any brand doing well and helping to raise the game while being a great value proposition but surely they can be their own brand . I appreciate it’s harder to do that than to milk a back catalog that belongs to Rolex .
@@markdance574 so true my friend☺️
Tudor going ro up production to meet their demand? Estimated they make around 450-500k watches per year.
I think that is the long goal. They own land to build more production facilities
I still think Mgauss comes out with the anniversary over the next 2 years....
Tudor Sub is great, and I would love a sub on a jubilee bracelet
I sure hope so. It would be shame to not reintroduce the line
By design Rolex is moving up market for Tudor to fill in mid market.
Interesting how everyone is talking like "Tudor is just better value, more options then rolex" and at the end everybody still gets the rolex 😅
No they don’t.
No one gets to buy Rolex but the grey market is diluted and flooded with new Rolexes. 😂 means they lost control.
Why else do you think Cartier and other brands are bumping up good numbers? Rolex sales numbers aren’t real anymore
Rolex wants to join the ranks of VC, AP & PP, and wants tudor to take its place and dominate the mid range … makes sense from a business/prestige perspective.
Go Tudor🔥
If you want to go and buy a Sub tomorrow you could buy 3 Tudors for the grey market price
I’m going for that Tudor Black Bay with burgundy bezel and 5 link bracelet. That’s a great watch!
That is one of my favorites too
Great video! I agree with you that Tudor had way better new releases than Rolex. I really like the direction they are going with the vintage vibe and the excellent quality and you can actually buy one. Rolex has just become untouchable for many of us, unfortunately.
IF they got id of the gilt I'd be over this watch. As it is, it's deal breaker for me.
I imagine other colors come in future years
You don't ask what you want to Rolex, Rolex gives you what they want to give you. When Tudor wins, Rolex wins. Rolex wants to go into Patek price bracket and aiming for the super rich. Meanwhile they let Tudor to compete with brands below Rolex .. They will dominate the $5k bracket and also above $20k bracket. So it is a win - win competition.
You’re overestimating Rolex though. People are starting to move on from Rolex. You do know that the sales are inflated?
Look at where all the Rolexes go.. the grey market and watch dealers. 😂 people are seeing this and now starting to move to Cartier or other brands.
Tudor wins then Rolex wins yes. But rolex are about to lose if this continues
Great stuff . However my better half said she gravitates towards Rolex and I think she is right ?
Gents I think this is being overblown Tudor plays at a way lower tier than Rolex. Rolex does NOT care because the are Rolex, which at this point is financial instrument.
I agree UTUBERS😂😂😂😂
Hmm I wonder if it might be a good idea to buy a Tudor now, rather than wait 10 years from now and be stuck saying “man 10 years ago I coulda got a BB58 for a couple grand!” Haha
Especially when you factor in price increases and inflation. The price will never be lower than it is today
Tudor were king last year as-well. I don’t know what people expect Rolex is boring and want to move Rolex to Patek’s level. Can’t believe they discontinued the yacht-master 2 that was the only other Rolex I wanted, sad times.
Rolex is luxury and Tudor is their tool division. Period. They set trend and we follow (or not)
Cherry Coke.
We needed an updated Pelagos not the 10,000th black bay.
Gilt is dead….honestly hate the look of the gmt
Rolex isn't stupid, they know what they're doing and it's gonna go the way they want. They are the only watch brand (one of the only luxury brands period) that controls the customer.
If I ever buy the Tudor then that hour hand has to go. Mercedes or plain baton but absolutely not a snowflake !
Rolex wants to be the same level of Patek or AP. It will never be.
Rolex just invested hugely in new factories to increase their annual production that already sits at over a million watches per year. The idea that they're moving towards being a predominantly precious metal brand is clearly not right. What they are doing is widening their offering and in doing so increasing the average price across their model line up, but steel sports Rolex will remain their bread and butter. The simple fact is every steel sports watch they make sells, so why wouldn't they focus on increasing the offering of more expensive models while they work on increasing the production of stuff that already sells itself?
Tudor will become Rolex Sport in 5-10 years
Here is a different take: Rolex is controlling the narrative, and the market, as usual. By releasing mostly opulent, and really expensive watches, Rolex is putting the squeeze on the grey market. Who is going to buy a $50-100k watch online? At the same time letting Tudor release the good stuff and still keep sales in the family. 😀
I have a sub and I don't think that it's that much better than any other watch in my collection to be honest it doesn't do it for me. I prefer the Tudor bb58 it's much better looking .
There's not really such a thing as Tudor beating Rolex or outshining Rolex. They're owned by the same company and are strategised together. So they cant really beat themselves, if you know what i mean. They just beat us 😂
Cannot stop looking at his hair
Rolex, is becoming more unobtanium, for the middle/ upper income demographic, increasingly become ,more luxurious, '" tool luxurious " watches. Gold Deepsea NOT a tool watch !. They are pushing the poorer demographic to TUDOR, I wouldn't fall for the marketing tactic. .I will certainly avoid TUDOR, and only consider Omega, if ,I was in the market for further tool watches.
Sorry but Rolex and Tudor were very boring at 2024 Watches and Wonders: IWC with its eternal calendar, the whole Cartier lineup, Bulgari with the slimest watch money can buy, Zenith with a whole diver's range or my favorite the Czapek Promenade Goutte d'eau etc... were more exciting than a BB58 Gmt or a black and white BB, and dont get me started on Rolex because I am very disapointed for 2024 unlike 2023 which was a step in the right direction, and I am Rolex "fanboy" owning 6 of them but I am already owning a GMT so I am not buying a 2nd one cause it has a grey and black bezel😅, and a full gold Deepsea 😮😮😮 yes it's funny for about 5 seconds but there is no way I would enjoying wearing one in real life...
Tudor is now what Rolex was. Rolex is trying to be another Patek.
Both duds IMO.
Excuse the crudity, but what came out of my bottom this morning outshone Rolex at Watches & Wonders 2024.....
Tudor is so hungry to grow and will do anything ... but is there any innovation? NO!
So Metas in house movements, refined case fit on wrist, watches in ti, ceramic silver, gold, and bronze is no innovation? Expansion of T-fit clasps. Styles ranging from dressy to toolish... I don't think I can agree with you
Tudor is innovating all over the place, dude. What is innovation in your eyes?
Tough crowd. Here I thought I wasn't going to get a response! Ha! Okay let me do the rundown in my eyes, which might not be agreed upon. METAS certification is not innovation since they aren't the first to do it. Thinning down their watch is not innovation it is refinement.... changing materials, the colors on the bezel or the dial is not innovation, it is fashion. Wearability and clasp options are part of the game, been around for decades, not innovation. Putting it in perspective, the new IWC perpetual calendar is innovation, with a 400 year mechanism, is innovative. Tudor watches are nice, almost bought one a few years back but opted for a sub. Really just not my vibe.
@@kpmcclellanI AGREE WITH YOU MY FRIEND
No. Tudor just copied Rolex very well, as usual. Just look in the Rolex back catalogue to see how much of a homage brand Tudor actually is.
That's Tudors history!
@@BruceWilliamswhat you are saying is that all Lexus cars should look like old Toyotas :))
I know Tudor’s history, but there should be a point in any kid’s life where they stop copying the father and develop into something new and unique.
All the more original Tudors - let’s say… like the North Flag or the Heritage “Monte Carlo” chrono etc., are gone and forgotten, probably because they didn’t look Rolex enough to sell well enough.
I am not saying thar Black Bays are bad watches - on the contrary… they are very good. But they are just too expensive to be pure homages to old Rolexes with just minor differences, like a “snow flake” here and there.
Tudor should grow up (30 years late already 😂)
Rolex is boss. They don’t need to give what enthusiasts what they want. They will offer something out of left field and everyone will learn love it. That’s a leader. In case you forget Tudor exists to support Rolex marketing plan
Rolex is a brand for wannabes, people who don’t know anything about watches watches and don’t care about anything than buying a brand. You are definitely one of them
Its just a watch/jewelery company. Its not that deep.
Not a boss. It’s embarrassing what they are releasing. It’s like the rich and powerful leader that everyone is deep down embarrassed for. They had an opportunity carry the watch industry into an exciting time in 2024 but they now increasingly epitomize the arrogance of the luxury watch space 😊
Both releases are just boring
Understand Tudor has its fanbase, but for me, not into retro-style at all and can’t stand snowflake hands