What a incredible conversation with Angelica and learning about how much she emphasise humanity that’s more inclusive of everyone including the LGBT+ community. I enjoyed the back and forth conversation between Angelica and Jamey about the abortion matter, she educated him about why it’s fundamentally a human right instead of a woman’s right. I understand where Jamey is coming from to explain that abortion is a woman’s issue, what he really means is that the whole abortion debate should put women at the center and Angelica is talking about the fact that abortion is a human right issue so technically they’re both right, the difference is that Jamey is centering women on a such topic like abortion that has been affecting them for centuries and Angelica is focused on making it a human right matter that includes everyone to have access to abortion whereas Jamey is talking about the historical aspect that concerns women/revolving around womanhood.
Jamey is always so good at directing the conversation to focus on the mission and tangible answers. He does it so well and with such poise and purpose.
I think the answer to Jamey's question about how people who don't understand being trans, is in Alok Menon's episode when they say "you don't need to understand to RESPECT". Angelica, you held your own so well, and definitely are so beautiful and cozy and steadfast in your knowledge of yourself. And I was very moved and motivated by the many turns and revelations this conversation had. Like racism is a white people's ISSUE, in that we perpetuate it and benefit from it historically and economically but mainly are also harmed by it in ways we need so desperately to understand more, abortion and bodily autonomy issues are ISSUES for those imposing them, and strength in numbers in fighting against those impositions and centering the people who really know what it is like to impacted (by racism, by abortion bans, by binary politics) is totally the way to go!!! There is no need to shut out groups in order to try and make a point. The people suffering the consequences, like Angelica said, don't have time!!!!
I love this episode so much! Learned so much! When she said that a real man is when he is free and when nothing makes him feel uncomfortable (my own interpretation of what she said of course) was the most mind blowing thing I learned from this episode. I don’t want to stop learning! Please share more amazing people with us! Also, when she said it is our own responsibility to educate ourselves! It is so true!
Angelica, what a blessing you are. You're a vessel of love and a wealth of knowledge and wisdom. Thank you for being a strong voice for the cause. Thanks team Man Enough Podcast 🙏🏾 🤝🏾🧘🏾♀️🤲🏾💜💋
Wow, I have met some wonderful trans people who have been open with me of so many parts of their journeys. There are so many aspects and nuances of their individual journeys, so the courage of these amazing people is tremendous. It breaks my heart when a friend was attacked, I was asked to be with friends for emotional support to come out to their families. I have always been an ally, and give support to friends and family alike. I've also seen some big burly men bothering a friend, I insisted they have a ride home, I had a cop friend pull them over, so I could get my friend and I safely home. I was so glad I did this, there were warrants out for all the men. My friend and I got there safely, I got back to my friends I was there with, and thank goodness I went with my gut instinct.
21:09 (ua-cam.com/video/b69-JC3_jhE/v-deo.html) "Everybody is trans... because we are really getting so lost in this whole understanding of everything. And there are so many people digging their heels in and don't wanna change. Anything that does not change is dead. So, the whole thing is respect each other that we're all in transition. Why would you judge how someone transitions from point A to point B? Young girls transition into, sometimes, young women, sometimes trans men, you know what I'm saying? But, no matter what the path is, it's transition So, how about we just respect everybody's transition?" - Angelica Ross
30:07 Timestamp for me to go back. The expanded bit in the intro is brilliant but I really like the part she says masculinity is produced, femininity is produced but they don't know that unlike women, they don't know they're a prisoner of it. It makes up for men who aren't wise and have gone through an experience to allow themselves to be the protector they claim to be.
Concerning about the conversation they had in the beginning about objectification, I’d like to add my thoughts to that topic. There’s a difference between sexualising someone for your own enjoyment versus objectifies someone as if they exist for your own pleasure which removes their agency in your mind and that causes entitlement to their bodies. The former respects the person’s agency while enjoying sexualising them for their own enjoyment and the latter is projecting a fantasy onto the object, expecting them to follow the script they created in their mind and they removed the object’s agency. That’s why people get angry when their sexual object doesn’t follow their script/fantasy, they feel entitled to have access to their object’s body just because they either paid for it or invested their time in their object. Sexualising is okay as it’s a fantasy and you still see them as human beings in a sexual setting /context but over sexualising and objectification isn’t because it takes away the respect to people’s agency by dehumanising them therefore making it easier to hurt them since they’re not viewed as humans at that point which makes it easier for people to justify less pay for those they objectifies and that opens a door to degrading, dehumanising and violating their bodily autonomy.
I agree with this. Sexualization is inevitable and can even be beautiful when done with respect of the other person as a whole being unto themselves just as you. We can, will, and should see others in a sexually captivating light. Just don’t erase the soul and mind for the body either, and have respect for others as well as yourself.
As a trans person using male pronouns, on testosterone and still having a womb I just wonder what you want to call it when I need an abortion. Women do not birth. *People do*. PEOPLE LIKE ME.
Thank you for sharing. We see you and validate you. As we often say, we don't have to agree to believe that each other has the right to exist, be free and have equal rights. Our hosts often don't even agree with each other, yet all remain dedicated to creating a safe space to explore that together.
@@WeAreManEnough we are all in this together. Cishetero patriarchal structures hurt everyone. We are just the canaries in the mine. We saw something. We are saying something.
I thought Angelica explained things well. My only problem is why is it okay for a trans to call themselves a full blown woman @1:08:15 and call natural born women "cis women." @01:02:41 It makes no sense. If they want to call themselves that fine but don't take a woman's title away to use it as your own then try to deny her the right to call herself by her original God given title. It makes zero sense.
I loved the conversation but let’s be honest men are going to fight for their masculinity and even the men on this platform had their questions and although respectful in hindsight of their guest, it could still be seen as slightly disparaging, not blatantly disrespectful so I just want to point that out. I guess that was done just for journalistic purposes but still, I’d like to think we’ve gotten beyond a certain point. I love how Angelica answered those questions because quite frankly there are not too many individuals who could have gone through this interview without a certain pretense of animosity.
37:00 - I like this talk about women’s issues here. Breast cancer is the second most common killer among women for instance. Cis men might even be more at risk than trans men as trans men have double mastectomies. But they die of prostate cancer much, much more than of breast cancer. Same goes for ovarian cancer versus testicular cancer, and even more so in those, for obvious reasons. Do we degender these things just to appease who have obviously been there as an exception? Should we not discuss abortion the same way for the same reasons? Mass violence against people as a moral issue primarily of men? Like, it’s okay to say “men’s” and “women’s” and recognize that it is somewhat idiomatic. There are trans and cross-gender exceptions. But the issue of gender remains at times relevant! There are things that have tendency toward masculine or feminine, and that’s okay. It doesn’t mean you’re “out of the game” if you don’t relate, it just means that you’re a different variation on it. And that’s okay. And I say this as a trans woman myself.
Wow, I did have a wonderful man who was always willing to stand up for the little guy. I had a good gay friend and my husband would always be willing to stand up for my gay friend. You don't have to dominate to be masculine. I want another man similar to that man. Some of the things guys now tell me, I'm tired of that formula guy.
I found the whole conversation around being indebted to your parents incredibly worrying, and a bit odd considering the times we’re living in. Given that this podcast is mainly focused on masculinity and patriarchy, it seems strange to leave out the nuclear family from the critique. The nuclear family is a patriarchal institution which has been a hotbed of abuse since its inception. No one owes their parents anything, and I’m genuinely concerned at this messaging. Fair enough it may be the guests personal view, but it ought to at least have some kind of disclaimer. Children who’ve been abused already feel an unhealthy bond with their parents, and this kind of guilt tripping could make someone go back to their abuser and feel it’s their duty to forgive and try to make it work. A parent/child relationship is never equal, and should never be on the child to fix things or look after their parents out of guilt. As with any relationship, you should be in it because there’s genuine love and respect. In what other relationship would we encourage someone to forgive a person who told them to kill themselves? This is clearly abuse, and would be seen as such if it was anyone but a parent. Not that abusers can’t change, but it’s incredibly rare and I feel the whole conversation sends the wrong message. With people like Jennette McCurdy coming forward with her story, and writing her book “I’m glad my mom died” I found this whole narrative to be quite shocking.
What a incredible conversation with Angelica and learning about how much she emphasise humanity that’s more inclusive of everyone including the LGBT+ community. I enjoyed the back and forth conversation between Angelica and Jamey about the abortion matter, she educated him about why it’s fundamentally a human right instead of a woman’s right. I understand where Jamey is coming from to explain that abortion is a woman’s issue, what he really means is that the whole abortion debate should put women at the center and Angelica is talking about the fact that abortion is a human right issue so technically they’re both right, the difference is that Jamey is centering women on a such topic like abortion that has been affecting them for centuries and Angelica is focused on making it a human right matter that includes everyone to have access to abortion whereas Jamey is talking about the historical aspect that concerns women/revolving around womanhood.
Thank you for really listening and hearing where people are coming from.
Letting her mother grieve her dream was powerful for me.
Jamey is always so good at directing the conversation to focus on the mission and tangible answers. He does it so well and with such poise and purpose.
I have nothing but LOVE hearing this conversation.
This is the best!🔥Thank you Miss Angelica Ross and Man enough! This matters!👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I think the answer to Jamey's question about how people who don't understand being trans, is in Alok Menon's episode when they say "you don't need to understand to RESPECT". Angelica, you held your own so well, and definitely are so beautiful and cozy and steadfast in your knowledge of yourself. And I was very moved and motivated by the many turns and revelations this conversation had. Like racism is a white people's ISSUE, in that we perpetuate it and benefit from it historically and economically but mainly are also harmed by it in ways we need so desperately to understand more, abortion and bodily autonomy issues are ISSUES for those imposing them, and strength in numbers in fighting against those impositions and centering the people who really know what it is like to impacted (by racism, by abortion bans, by binary politics) is totally the way to go!!! There is no need to shut out groups in order to try and make a point. The people suffering the consequences, like Angelica said, don't have time!!!!
I love this episode so much! Learned so much! When she said that a real man is when he is free and when nothing makes him feel uncomfortable (my own interpretation of what she said of course) was the most mind blowing thing I learned from this episode. I don’t want to stop learning! Please share more amazing people with us! Also, when she said it is our own responsibility to educate ourselves! It is so true!
Angelica, what a blessing you are. You're a vessel of love and a wealth of knowledge and wisdom. Thank you for being a strong voice for the cause. Thanks team Man Enough Podcast 🙏🏾 🤝🏾🧘🏾♀️🤲🏾💜💋
Very interesting conversation, thank you.
What a conversation! Thank You all!!!
What a powerful force Angelica is. Fantastic episode!!!!
Love Angelica! So glad she's getting her own podcast!
Such an incredible conversation!
Fabulously honest and nuanced conversation. Brava to all!
I didn't want this conversation to end!!!!! What a delightful guest is Angelica. 😊
As a brother, I see Liz as an angel with wings!
I am so proud of You Miss Ross.
47:30 - this really does display how cruel humor can be at its worst. I agree, Angelica.
Wow, I have met some wonderful trans people who have been open with me of so many parts of their journeys. There are so many aspects and nuances of their individual journeys, so the courage of these amazing people is tremendous. It breaks my heart when a friend was attacked, I was asked to be with friends for emotional support to come out to their families. I have always been an ally, and give support to friends and family alike. I've also seen some big burly men bothering a friend, I insisted they have a ride home, I had a cop friend pull them over, so I could get my friend and I safely home. I was so glad I did this, there were warrants out for all the men. My friend and I got there safely, I got back to my friends I was there with, and thank goodness I went with my gut instinct.
Thank you! Thank you for THIS.
Loved it!
Thank you! We did too.
21:09 (ua-cam.com/video/b69-JC3_jhE/v-deo.html)
"Everybody is trans... because we are really getting so lost in this whole understanding of everything. And there are so many people digging their heels in and don't wanna change. Anything that does not change is dead. So, the whole thing is respect each other that we're all in transition. Why would you judge how someone transitions from point A to point B? Young girls transition into, sometimes, young women, sometimes trans men, you know what I'm saying? But, no matter what the path is, it's transition So, how about we just respect everybody's transition?" - Angelica Ross
Bravo!👏🏾🏳️⚧️👏🏾
Great conversation!
I love the way Liz talks about G string!
You all need to have TS Madison on next she will take this conversation STEPS higher
Y'all Weirdos 😂😂😂
Really good, needed conversation
30:07 Timestamp for me to go back. The expanded bit in the intro is brilliant but I really like the part she says masculinity is produced, femininity is produced but they don't know that unlike women, they don't know they're a prisoner of it. It makes up for men who aren't wise and have gone through an experience to allow themselves to be the protector they claim to be.
39:50 To not single out issues on the opposer and put the weight on their own. It's our issue.
Thank you. So glad you're appreciating this one.
Concerning about the conversation they had in the beginning about objectification, I’d like to add my thoughts to that topic.
There’s a difference between sexualising someone for your own enjoyment versus objectifies someone as if they exist for your own pleasure which removes their agency in your mind and that causes entitlement to their bodies. The former respects the person’s agency while enjoying sexualising them for their own enjoyment and the latter is projecting a fantasy onto the object, expecting them to follow the script they created in their mind and they removed the object’s agency.
That’s why people get angry when their sexual object doesn’t follow their script/fantasy, they feel entitled to have access to their object’s body just because they either paid for it or invested their time in their object.
Sexualising is okay as it’s a fantasy and you still see them as human beings in a sexual setting /context but over sexualising and objectification isn’t because it takes away the respect to people’s agency by dehumanising them therefore making it easier to hurt them since they’re not viewed as humans at that point which makes it easier for people to justify less pay for those they objectifies and that opens a door to degrading, dehumanising and violating their bodily autonomy.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response.
I agree with this. Sexualization is inevitable and can even be beautiful when done with respect of the other person as a whole being unto themselves just as you. We can, will, and should see others in a sexually captivating light. Just don’t erase the soul and mind for the body either, and have respect for others as well as yourself.
"What baby?!" took me out.
Me too! I am German and didn´t have a clue. Now I know! :-D
Much respect to the whole interview. She’s a great representation of a transwomen
As a trans person using male pronouns, on testosterone and still having a womb I just wonder what you want to call it when I need an abortion. Women do not birth. *People do*. PEOPLE LIKE ME.
Thank you for sharing. We see you and validate you. As we often say, we don't have to agree to believe that each other has the right to exist, be free and have equal rights. Our hosts often don't even agree with each other, yet all remain dedicated to creating a safe space to explore that together.
@@WeAreManEnough I love you guys but no. Here is something to ponder: metaphysical scepticism ua-cam.com/video/yCxqdhZkxCo/v-deo.html
@@chrisbasson9603 We love you too. Thank you for sharing that and for staying at the table for this conversation.
@@WeAreManEnough we are all in this together. Cishetero patriarchal structures hurt everyone. We are just the canaries in the mine. We saw something. We are saying something.
I thought Angelica explained things well. My only problem is why is it okay for a trans to call themselves a full blown woman @1:08:15 and call natural born women "cis women." @01:02:41 It makes no sense. If they want to call themselves that fine but don't take a woman's title away to use it as your own then try to deny her the right to call herself by her original God given title. It makes zero sense.
I loved the conversation but let’s be honest men are going to fight for their masculinity and even the men on this platform had their questions and although respectful in hindsight of their guest, it could still be seen as slightly disparaging, not blatantly disrespectful so I just want to point that out. I guess that was done just for journalistic purposes but still, I’d like to think we’ve gotten beyond a certain point. I love how Angelica answered those questions because quite frankly there are not too many individuals who could have gone through this interview without a certain pretense of animosity.
37:00 - I like this talk about women’s issues here. Breast cancer is the second most common killer among women for instance. Cis men might even be more at risk than trans men as trans men have double mastectomies. But they die of prostate cancer much, much more than of breast cancer. Same goes for ovarian cancer versus testicular cancer, and even more so in those, for obvious reasons. Do we degender these things just to appease who have obviously been there as an exception? Should we not discuss abortion the same way for the same reasons? Mass violence against people as a moral issue primarily of men? Like, it’s okay to say “men’s” and “women’s” and recognize that it is somewhat idiomatic. There are trans and cross-gender exceptions. But the issue of gender remains at times relevant! There are things that have tendency toward masculine or feminine, and that’s okay. It doesn’t mean you’re “out of the game” if you don’t relate, it just means that you’re a different variation on it. And that’s okay. And I say this as a trans woman myself.
Thank you for the thoughtful response.
👏👏👏✨✨✨💯💯💯
1:02:40 - totally :) let it be known
I feel like Obama would be a good guest on this pod idk why 😂
We agree! He featured the Man Enough book on his podcast and social when it came out. Maybe someday we'll get him...
56:30 - this is true. We need police reform. At very least.
50:32 Angelica said a mouth full, because as quiet as it is kept Donald Trump gave people the permission to be racist out loud.
Wow, I did have a wonderful man who was always willing to stand up for the little guy. I had a good gay friend and my husband would always be willing to stand up for my gay friend. You don't have to dominate to be masculine. I want another man similar to that man. Some of the things guys now tell me, I'm tired of that formula guy.
I agree with Jamey and Liz about abortion being a women's issue. It's unfortunate that Angelica does not want to recognize this.
I found the whole conversation around being indebted to your parents incredibly worrying, and a bit odd considering the times we’re living in. Given that this podcast is mainly focused on masculinity and patriarchy, it seems strange to leave out the nuclear family from the critique. The nuclear family is a patriarchal institution which has been a hotbed of abuse since its inception.
No one owes their parents anything, and I’m genuinely concerned at this messaging. Fair enough it may be the guests personal view, but it ought to at least have some kind of disclaimer. Children who’ve been abused already feel an unhealthy bond with their parents, and this kind of guilt tripping could make someone go back to their abuser and feel it’s their duty to forgive and try to make it work. A parent/child relationship is never equal, and should never be on the child to fix things or look after their parents out of guilt. As with any relationship, you should be in it because there’s genuine love and respect.
In what other relationship would we encourage someone to forgive a person who told them to kill themselves? This is clearly abuse, and would be seen as such if it was anyone but a parent. Not that abusers can’t change, but it’s incredibly rare and I feel the whole conversation sends the wrong message. With people like Jennette McCurdy coming forward with her story, and writing her book “I’m glad my mom died” I found this whole narrative to be quite shocking.
Why does the white guy look so uncomfortable ??? 🤷🏾♀️
“But you won’t protect the entire kingdom”. 🫢 POETRY SNAPS