XRGB-mini Framemeister Review by Phonedork
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- XRGB Mini Review
I basically show in detail how it compares and scales versus a typical HDMI scaler. A very pricey unit that has minimal LAG to almost No lag on certain LCDs. You get RGB monitor quality on a LCD but with it are some issues. Games that carry 240P and 480I modes have issues with sync. Although this device is the pinnacle of 240P on a LCD, you will be paying dear for it as it is almost the same price as purchasing a new PS4 or XBOX one! They really need to make it out of better quality material and drop the price!
Hope you guys enjoy. Sorry for not being able to make videos often. My schedule is very hectic. Like I said before... I have ADD! This gives me many ideas but I procrastinate in delivery!
Even after all these years this dude still has the best and must informative videos out there
This guy is ripped, and a nerd? He's so cool!
Don't drool too much, you'll ruin the consoles!
He's like Tyler1's lost brother
you were way ahead of the time my friend !!!
Love how he just uses curse words but at the same time it's such a thorough review. Thanks so much!
Wish you made more videos on the regular, but you explained why in the video. Nothing but excellence.
Yea its hard for me to make videos too often. I am my worst critic. If it bores me I don't post. Bt I plan on getting more out. But I want them to be just as interesting as the last. Thank you!!!
Scan lines make everything better!
By everything I hope you mean 240p 2D games.
NicRenee Khaw 240P 3D games too! Just not 480I and higher for me! With N64 I prefer very thin scanlines! Thick scanlines make that rubbish aliasing filter look like shit. I guess however if I could live without scanlines on one it would be the 3D games. But honestly those jagged 3D games look correct with scanlines showing why they were there in the first place.
+phonedork how could anyone even like and prefer scanlines in this day and age?! it looks terrible AND hurts your eyes. they didnt make HD tv's for no reason you know. its not just the increased resolution that matters.
your nostalgia is most likely got the better of you. scanlines are shit
heyjeySigma Well we are all entitled to our own opinion! Nostalgia has nothing to do for it with me. Scanlines were part of a 240p resolution. 240 scanlines (Un-drawn) and 240 drawn lines to take up 480 lines of a 640x480 image from back in the day. Even when you take the scanlines out it does not look right IMO. Its simulating a picture that has all 480 lines actually drawn. I hate jagged pixels caused my line doubling. I need the black lines placed in between the jagged image like it was intended. But again that is my opinion! I can go further on this but I am sure you have your reasons on why you dont like them. Not having them hurts my eyes!
+phonedork I was always a scanline hater until a recent trip to Japan. I was playing Samurai Shodown II on a Taito Egret II cabinet and I was simply floored by how amazing it looked. I was thinking, "I have this game on emulator and on X360, hooked up to beautiful 1080p LCDs... and everything I have seen before is just garbage compared to this Taito arcade cabinet." Then I finally figured it out: I was looking at a great RGB monitor with *scanlines*. (Luckily I already had plans to pick up an XRGB-mini while I was there.)
A good scanline setup is like the Matrix: you can't explain it, you have to see it for yourself.
finally received my XRGBmini this week after watching this video many times. Looking forward to the next installment from phonedork
"The shittier HDMI scaler"
Someone tell AdamKoralik that and link him this fuckin' video.
Hah! I just told him about it before reading this.
Monacomaverick well he has a framemeister now
"And wait... and wait... and wait... and wait... and wait... yeahhhhh" - phonedork
please dont stop doing what you do, i love these videos on how to get the best display for your old video game console
Your videos are very underrated...nicely done!!
Yet another fantastic video man, and I feel your best to date in terms of overall quality. Your video editing is superb and I can only imagine the hours you put in getting this just right.
Your work is much appreciated, as your tech videos are always so informative, so much respect to you.
Your right these video suck the social life out of me as I get so immersed into doing them. Right when I start to render the final product I get another comparison idea that just HAS to be in it. Turning your living room into this room of games everywhere for testing drives myself crazy LOL! Even bringing these systems on the road and testing them on hotel LCDs in between work. This is why I don't do a lot of videos. I get OCD on these projects LOL
You definitely understand...
Thanks you so much!
Ive been researching the best way to play retro games on a newer tv for a long time and you literally cover every aspect in great detail that I've always wanted to know, i sincerely thank you. I only wish there were a list of all the games you're playing, some of them I've never seen before but look amazing!
The reason you get strange sync issues on SFC is because you need to set the SYNC LEVEL to be different. I had the same issues and it sorted it brilliantly. EDIT: Also, the black levels you experienced in 'Black' on PS2, you could adjust the black levels on the XRGB-Mini, it has deep black options etc.
Depends on what you have your TV set to in terms of RGB-Limited/Full. I did enjoy the video though! So thanks!
My SNES worked fine after using a RAW / C-Sync scart. The composite video sync scart it did not like. Thanks I did not know you can adjust the blacks like that. Also thanks for watching my video!
It's great to see another video from you, especially on the XRGB Mini.
Superb review, you clearly did lots of research, unlike a lot of UA-camrs! Couple things I noticed/thought you might be interested in.
480i doesn't work on any Megadrive/Genesis games with the Mini, nobody knows why!
Input lag has been tested with the Leo Bodnar tester which is super accurate (Google it if you've never seen one), and comes to around 20ms, pretty impressive. Only the DVDO scalers can beat that and they have their own caveats too.
Fake 480i games can be made to look good with a bit of fiddling around. Google the XRGB Mini Wiki for more info.
Cheap scalers don't actually interlace 240p, they simply misinterpret the signal as 480i in the first place.
You can run 480p through SCART, it's just 99% of equipment doesn't support it. On the PS2, you need an Extron RGB interface to convert from RGB with sync on green to RGBs. Many PS2 games can be forced to 480p with homebrew software. It's well worth doing although the Mini's deinterlacing is very impressive and there's no difference in input lag on the mini between interlace and progressive (this is unusual btw, usually progressive lags way less).
The price isn't that high considering professional scalers like Lumagen and Pixelmagic scalers can be $4000+
My Jaguar is perfect with a raw sync cable.
Lucky my girlfriend is into gaming too :)
I was using a CRT for over ten years for all of my retro games, Laserdiscs and DVDs. Was 110% sure that I would never upgrade. Then I got myself a DVD recorder which had a built in scaler, so I experimented with it some along with my Laserdisc players and video games on my parents' HDTV. Already by then I saw that I could upgrade without any real loss. So I looked around for dedicated scalers and today (a year later) I've got an XRGB-mini, a DVDO Edge, two Crystalio VPS-2300 and a 42" plasma which will be upgraded soon. Absolutley amazing stuff.
I don't miss my CRT and will probably never go back (though it's still out in storage as it had overall great picture). Overall, I've had a fantastic journey this year. Many of my friends say "Nah, I don't believe that cheap looking box will make a difference" when I tell them about the Mini but as soon as they see it in action they change their minds. Despite some annoying flaws that should be fixed, the Mini is a step forward in human evolution imo. :P
After watching this video, I checked craigslist to see if I could find that exact model of Samsung TV from your mom's house. Found one within 10 miles for $80 and have been happily gaming on it ever since! Perfect mate for the Framemeister XRGB mini, thanks for discovering this hidden gem! About as close to no lag as you can possibly get from an LCD...
I would also like to thank Fudoh who made this wonderful website dedicated to the XRGB! junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB-mini_FRAMEMEISTER
Also Faginrs500 for all his vast knowledge on the subject!
Someone needs to develop a cheaper alternative to the XRGB Mini that still gives the same quality. Time for some technical geek who knows about this stuff to start a Kickstarter.
+Max Caulfield Agreed!
There's a thing called the OSSC (open source scaler ) it's said to be under 200 and introduces no inerrant lag
OH there's also this thing called the SLG in a box it uses a generic arcade converter that gives a pretty good signal as well as scan lines, not cheap but still way cheaper than the XRGB EDIT: I think cheaper than the XRGB is better than saying it's better cause there both two different things
+Juan “TheGeekPlayer” Salazar yea it does 480p right? So it just line doubles? I think those would be good on a VGA monitor. But on a flatscreen 1080p LCD I would go with the XRGB mini. I heard it was good but I believe Fagin said Faginrs500 said the XRGB Mini performs better
phonedork yeah you're right he did, I guess it just depends on what you're needs are, I have a cheapo 720 tv so the SLG might be a good option but the Mini is still gonna be the best
Thank you very much for these videos you make. I didn't keep too much attention on the hardware interface for my old consoles because I just ignored how it could even interfere. But since I am interesting myself into the NES and SNES game development coding rules, I clearly understood how important and mandatory it is to understand the TV hardware with its vertical and horizontal blank frequencies, and why it makes the games so good on CRT. And then, your videos are the links I was missing why there was lag.
Keep going with this good stuff.
Last time I was in Japan I saw this up-converter and the XRGB-3 they were pricey but not sure if they were worth it. I use to have a an old 29" NEC CRT I bought when I was in Japan it was great, but I had to sell it just too big. This was a really good review, I might have to pick this up as I own almost every video game system from the 90's. They are mostly all Japanese versions favorite one I just picked up is the PC Engine. Keep up the good work all your videos are really informative and entertaining.
Wow man, this is a really good review. Love the scan lines. Good quality stuff!
Thanks a ton for this video!!! I've got a 14" PVM in my home office that I use for gaming, and it's fine for 8- and 16-bit systems for everything from composite to RGB, but playing anything from the 32-bit era on was ridiculous on such a tiny screen.
Your video finally pushed me to order a Framemeister, and it arrived today.
This thing is absolutely mind-blowing! Even N64 over S-video looks beautiful on this thing (after making some changes here and there). Even PC Engine over COMPOSITE looks mind-blowing.
Anyway, thanks again for a kickass video!
This is a great and informative video. Without your diligence I would have spent a fortune with trial and error on my video setup. Thank you.
I don't usually comment on UA-cam videos but I feel compelled to after watching your review. Thank you so much for an extremely thorough review, not only of this product but its competition and other alternatives as well. I usually can't sit through the entirety of an eight minute review but yours was both informative and hilarious as well. I had your last choice in my cart on Amazon half an hour ago, which I will be removing. I agree that 400 bucks is just too damn much for an upscaler, unless it is absolutely flawless. I'll have to reevaluate my situation and decide how I can play my old school games. At this point, for me it's between emulating, which I'd rather not do or finding a way to fit an old TV in my little apartment.
Your review answered almost all my questions with this piece of hardware
Come on dude, you always knew what the outcome was going to be. ;-)
Interesting and informative video as per usual.
You know I had to build some suspense!!! LOL
YES!!! Awesome vid as always. I'm glad you brought up the scanline issue. Some people don't realize that it's part of what makes the resolution to those earlier game systems. Even with the Dreamcast 3-D titles,scanlines are necessary. I hope you can make a follow up or a separate video using the DC via the mini using the Hanzo Vga adapter and Kenzei set up and maybe you can explain somewhat how this magic works. *I mentioned it a few days ago on FB. I know you're busy but keep the videos coming. Great work!
I do have a dreamcast in my closet somewhere lol! It seems a lot of people are in love with that specific system. Maybe I will :-)
phonedork Yes,I guess you could say that. Aside from the Genesis,the Dreamcast was Sega's swan song. I love it because it's the closest thing to the Naomi arcade system. I know many of the games are available elsewhere but like the Neo-Geo,nothing beats playing on original hardware. My DC got a new lease on life with the recent discovery of getting optimal quality on an Lcd.
(and the future prospect of using the GDEMU)
Of course,nothing beats a Crt but its nice to have options now. Tried VGA output and not all panels play nice. RGB straight to the mini,although looks well,it's blurry compared to my current set up.
It seems to me that the creators of the Hanzo,tailored their Vga box for use on the mini because of the thickness of how the scanlines appear making the games look more arcade like and appearing more like a crt,compared to using the mini's own.
Btw,is it safe to say that a 32'' is the right size for using the Xrgb? My 32 inch is not name brand(Dynex) and seems to work best with everything i've thrown at it. I tried it once on a 55'' inch and there was way too much lag.
inzo464 Scanlines are not necessary for the Dreamcast...the Dreamcast usually did 480i(or 480p with VGA Cables)
You apparently don't understand why scanlines were a thing in older consoles(pre-dreamcast)
It's because old consoles used to output at 240p while pretty much every TV was 480i/p(or in the case of PAL TV's 576i/p)
Alot of devs might have designed the games with scanlines in mind(though we don't really know for sure) but surely there's an old 240p game out there that wasn't designed with scanlines in mind
The only way to really know how these games look in their native state without scanlines would be somebody making a small 240p CRT RGB Monitor...but unfortunately nobody has ever thought of making one and there's really no such thing available to purchase so...yeah
***** Have you seen how horrible most 3-D DC games look outputting vga,even on a crt vga monitor? Apparently not. Jaggies are the issue here as well as pixels when it comes to 2-D gaming,they look god awful. I guess you aren't familiar with the Naomi arcade system either. Which also played some of the same games the DC had. Even though they ran on vga,what did they use to display them? Crt's...with scanlines.
Also,vga monitors weren't common place in every household,good old fashioned crt's were,which most did not have a vga input. Your argument is invalid and please spare me your "lecture" on what 240p/480i and blah blah blah is. Did you google that too. I rest my case.
*drops mike*
inzo464 Woah calm down son
Most Computer Monitors have VGA inputs
And Dreamcast games look just fine through VGA
Jaggies are a problem due to the Dreamcast being a 1998 console and 3D graphics still being new
If you wanna fix those problems the only way to really do it is to emulate them on your PC and turn on the Anti-aliasing and render them at higher resolutions
You may have a point with 2D Games(which might have used lower res sprites...like Street Fighter 3) but you have absolutely no point when it comes to 3D Games which all were 480i through composite or 480p through vga
Those scanlines at 5:40 are sheer pornography. My god that was nice to look at, can't wait till mine arrives.
Great review and really enjoyed it to mate. All the best.
SegaSaturnLad Hey thank you very much!
Great video and review of the XRGB mini! The devices results look very nice.
Great presentation and video! I'm snatching the wife's old 32 inch tube tv to use for retro gaming in the basement-buying her a new flatscreen. I bought an upscaler for my 52 inch flatscreen- it worked ok but seems I couldn't get the brightness quite right with scanlines. So I said screw it, I'm playing on an old tv, problem solved! (PS2, Sega Dreamcast, Sega Genesis)
Tai Davis CRT is always the BEST IMO!!!!
Good to see the Neo Geo getting plenty of love throughout the FM review!
Another great video,ill get one someday but will stick w my pvm for now,very cool though and it would be nice to only have one tv in my bedroom,does need a price drop for sure!
Videos like this have me so close to going from emulating on PC to playing real consoles on a BVM/PVM. (Also, I'm going nuts trying to find out what the game at 7:00 is.)
Great review! I Have a Samsung Plasma 55" that I cannot wait to try this out on. You've sold me on buying one. Keep these reviews coming! Though they're few and far between, I enjoy seeing them pop up in my feed. Did you ever get your mom to sell you her tv? That was hilarious!
Thanks man! I honestly was not a big fan of it in 55 inches. But maybe running it 1080P with No scan lines might work. In 720P mode is the only way to get the scan lines to match perfect. LOL! I want that TV so bad from my mom that I was almost willing to trade my 55 inch for it! It just ran the XRGB so perfect!
phonedork 720p in Game mode is the best way to play these older systems on HDTV. Watching your progression up to the XRGB, The NEC that you have is the optimal way to play with the PVM monitors running a close second. There is something that is just so... analog with the sprites that makes those games feel more alive next to the current iteration of all digital polygonal games which for the most part are colder in comparison. Analog synthesizers from the early 80s in comparison to their emulated soft synthetic counterparts are just like that. Anyway, I'll keep on the lookout for a XM29 Plus. The XRGB will be great for the PS2, Dreamcast, and GameCube systems for their overlapping 240p and 480i resolutions on my Plasma, but everything else is going on the NEC! Craigslist will be my friend until I find it. That thing makes 240p games look sick!
***** I actually think you got that backwards IMO. The 240P /480I double resolutions of PS1, PS2, N64, and Sega Saturn would be much better on a RGB monitor. The time it takes to sync between them on the XRGB is too long. XRGB Mini does run 240P games well! Even 480I and 480P as long as they don't have to cross over from one resolution to another like my Castlevania demonstration on Saturn. For me I just leave that NEOGEO goodness connected to the XRGB in the living room so I can kick some Samurai Showdown ass before departing on a Saturday night with friend LOL
Or does the Plasma handle overlapping Sync better???
phonedork Plasma TV are closer to CRY tv in the way they handle sync in my opinion. So much so, I would never touch a led because of it (until you showed what your mom's tv can do). I currently have component going from my Plasma to my ps2, and there is absolutely no lag at all. The street fighter alpha collection plays great, but with the XRGB-mini, I imagine my saturn street fighter alpha 3 will play with no lag at all AND just look gorgeous at the same time! (You were right about me having my setup reversed, so scratch that). ^_^
I think the issue with the black levels being so black is because CRT's version of black was light gray at best where as modern LCD's can produce true black. So they would compensate for this in games by using full black even where gray should have been used. Just guessing on this one.
I believe you are right!
Barnacules Nerdgasm And yet CRT Monitors like the Sony GW-700 have the best blacks on a display ever
Modern LCD's can't compete shit when it comes to blacks,colors etc. with High-end CRT Monitors
Of the current displays Plasma's are the closest to matching a CRT when it comes to that
*****
Depends on the LCD. My Sony LED LCD controls the black by literally turning off the leds behind black areas of the screen. That's about as black as you can get.
KarbuncleX They still don't compete with top tier CRT's
***** Yeah, plasma and the current undisputed champion of deep black levels, OLED screens.
Woaaaah!! I need to know the name of the track at 5:41!!
I mean... other than Darude - Sandstorm.
***** It's the theme song from Ninja Gaiden (stage 4-2). A metal cover of that theme song to be precise. A couple of good versions on youtube are by eman3624 and famicomguitar.
Nice video! The like you get for "baby you need to get rid of that thing" We have all been there ;)
Excellent use of "Unbreakable Determination", otherwise known as "Ninja Gaiden 4-2", otherwise known as my ringtone.
Can't believe it's been 6 years!
I'm learning from watching your videos. And laughing too
The best framemeister review on UA-cam, period. Thanks for doing this! Also I have a question, on your previous video you said that the NEC XM29 support progressive resolutions, then why you didn't use the PS2 component cable to get progressive scan? The NEC XM29 has component conectors right? Greeting.
The NECxm29 plus does support higher resolutions. But I believe it has to go through VGA. Not quite sure. It does not except component. However.... I swear one time I was able to get 480P running through scart on my NEC. I believe this was because my PS2 was using chroma for sync. Not sure... I wanted to mention that but I was unable to get my NECXM29 to take 480P through scart again. I remember the picture was not flickering like a 480I signal. But every time I do it now I see flickering which means interlaced. Dreamcast runs progressive through VGA so I think that would be a good way to check it. But that is VGA not compnent. Thanks for your compliment!
What up phonedork happy holidays. You know what works for me is the cheap up scaler thru the framemiester for the dreamcast it make the color stand out and look shaper too for the dreamcast
what music did you use when showing scan lines at 5:40?
Ninja gaiden 1 on the nes soundtrack unbreakable determination
Would you please provide a list of the games you demoed in this video? Some I totally recognized, others I’ve never seen before but would love to play one day!
Really informative and great video! Thanks. This is now on my to buy list haha
The reason your mother's TV likely gives lower lag is likely due to it being a 720p monitor, and you were likely outputting a 720p signal and it didn't need to scale the input. On your 1080 televisions, the scaling can easily add a frame. It would also explain why the cheaper scaler may have had poor performance, if that cheap scaler automatically scaled to 1080p and the tv then had to downscale.
I travel a lot and have to use a lot of hotel LCDs that use only 720P. They mostly sucked and were samsung brands. I put that out the window once I found that out. I have also found 1080P LCDs that worked better then the 720P hotel LCDs. I probably hooked that XRGB Mini to at least 13 LCDs now. My mother's was the only one that gave this result. The other scaler is just shit. I never got good out of it for 240P games. It worked alright for PS2 480I to 720P. But still not near the level of the XRGB in either case.
Luke Kelly I always use game mode if I have the option!
Yea hotel TVs suck... The problem is finding the right TV to compliment the XRGB Mini. This may not bother most. But I play with 0 Lag, so its frustrating to have any
+phonedork ur the shit dude SCAN LINES FKN RULE ! :)
@voltz15
Thanks for the idea about doing a re-take on everything. Every time I try to respond to you for some reason youtube does not allow me. So I figured I would give you a shout out on the video! I actually tried to find the comment you said for hours but could not find it. I was going to screenshot it and implement it into the video.
phonedork
Something with Google/UA-cam has been making it hard for any of my posts, let alone PM's come through, so it seems like I've been talking to myself lately. It's frustrating. Anyway, it's nice to see you're happy with your setup as I believe everyone deserves to be enjoying the best quality possible when it comes to classic gaming.
Great vid!
I really need to try that 240p test suite to see how bad (or good) my tv is.
Good stuff, dude.
Regarding the Scanlines and the Original Author's intent...remember these are 240p games(well technically Genesis games are usually 320x224 and SNES games are typically 256x192 but the consoles output 240p signal so I won't get that asinine)...the reason Scanlines were ever a thing is cuz they were being run on 480i displays
It'd be cool to see somebody make a custom-made 10 inch 240p CRT to see how old games would look like in their native state without scanlines
Although what you say is very true...it could be that many companies designed their game's graphics with Scanlines in mind
Phonedork is right about the scanlines. Developers designed their games around the technology of the CRT television. That includes that natural generation of scanlines. Emulated scanlines will never compare to the real ones generated on a CRT but it's much better than not having them, if you're playing 8bit to 32bit games... but that is my opinion of course. If you ask people in their mid to late 30s, they'll most likely gravitate towards having as much of the original quality and look of a vintage game system they grew up with. But if you're in your early 20s and below...naturally, you'll think scanlines are horrible and pointless. I'm fortunate to have a very decent CRT to play all my retro games with in my office. (away from the wife's radar. lol) I won't be dealing with upscalers until this tv dies completely on me. 400.00 dollars is way too much. Plus the extra dollars you'll have to spend on special cables to hook up all of your retro consoles... too much hassle. When my TV dies, I'll probably quit playing games by then anyways. :p
Dude i love your videos. You should make them more often :) i have a moded pc engine duo r and the scart cable that it came included with does not have the sound out. The problem with that is I want to buy an adapter that transfers scart to component but no way of converting the sound too. Any suggestions? Also pls join our group on Neogeo for life on Facebook, it's a wonderful community with plenty of people to talk to and show off your goodies. Please join us u are one of a kind and we need you :) also I was thinking of getting a scart to hdmi converter from a company that makes them very well. I'll have to link it to you later. Anyways take care bro, love your videos and sense of humor.
Perhaps someone mentioned this in the comments earlier but you may need to set RGB to "limited" as opposed to "full" in the XRGB-Mini's settings in order to keep the blacks from crushing on 480p games.
Any chance you’ll ever review the OSSC, PhoneDork? We all would like to see more of your stuff. I know you had that little collaboration/interaction with My Life in Gaming a while back.
I've used that cheap scaler with my Sony Bravia for about three years now and never had any issues with lag. And the signal from the scaler has to go through two HDMI switchers and my Elgato HD before finally arriving at my television.
21:00 - 21:00 ACCURATE. great video brother thank you. I'm on the fence about OSSC vs Framemeister. your vid is helping me make that decision.
Loved the ending! Brilliant haha
Emulating Scanlines on a CRT isn't always bad, it just depends on the CRT Display. I have a 2048x1536 CRT Monitor and emulated NES Games look fantastic on it, they look almost as good as the real NES on an old CRT TV when you use PuNES with good settings.
Maybe the Samsung has lower lag because it's a natively 720p set?
I have an idea. Maybe the XRGB is capable of zero lag at 720p, but most people never see this because most displays are now 1080p, and it is the display that introduces the 20ms lag by its internal 720p to 1080p upconversion.
720p = 1 million pixels per frame
1080p = 2 million
So it makes sense that the XRGB has less lag when it's crunching half of the pixels required for 1080p.
I know that the Framemeister can output both 720p and 1080p. Maybe it has to do with the fact that all it has to do to upscale a 240p signal to 720 is multiply the width and height of each pixel by 3.
I agree I think a nice CRT always looks best however my setup right now I feel looks better than what i've seen on this video. Im using a svideo cable from my neogeo into a SD projector. Looks very very clean and clear and vibrant. This is of course a lagless setup just like the CRT.
Awesome video, and it gave me a lot of info I was looking for on the Framemeister unit. What I would like to know, however, since I have not watched all of your vids, is what connections were you using on your systems, like the AES for example? Is your Neo Geo AES modded internally using RGB boards, or what? I need to mod all of my older systems to component to get the best looking video to start with, then attach them to this RGB mini device via Component cables, or what? Please let me know when you get the chance, thanks.
I have the same questions. Also curious if the scart switch mentioned in previous videos was used with the framemeister.
Thanks for the video man! Tons of great info here guys! One question how's would I go about hooking multiple systems via the framemeister? I assume it doesn't have multiple scart inputs? Thanks again.
Gustavo Cortez Glad you liked it!
Always informative, always entertaining!
And shame about the delay when switching from 240p to 480i. The PS1 games that come to my mind are Tobal No. 1 and Tobal 2. The games themselves are in 480i but the endings and other FMVs are in 240p and it's really annoying. My DVDO Edge has a similar delay when switching and I think the only way to capture those endings is to use some old capture card that I have laying around (which I think just treats everything as 480i no matter what)... and that capture card hasn't worked since Win XP!
You know that shitty HDMI scaler may be what you need in line with your capture card if it excepts HDMI! That device actually changes or basically converts everything to 480I first before it scales. But I never used it so I don't know. Adam Koralik whatever uses it. It even captured the Sonic 2 in 2 player mode
phonedork heh he might as well just buy a PS3 if all he wants to do is play PS1 games on an HDTV
Cliff Reeser Well I do have a PS3, and yes, on one hand the picture doesn't black out or anything when switching from 240p to 480i with PS1 games. On the other hand, I'll need a Japanese PS3 to play Tobal 2 that way. And I'd still be dealing with the 2-frame lag from the Dual Shock 3 which is why it's a lot better to play on the original console in this case. That and the really ugly 480i interlacing blown up in HD. Like Bizarro scanlines almost...
General Phonedork sir! I know it's been over two years, but I finally got that shitty generic HDMI scaler today. And you were right; it was just what I needed for capturing games that do the 240p/480i switching.
For $20 shipped, I'm pretty happy; I just set my Intensity Pro to capture at 720p60 (instead of 720p59.94 like most everything else) and it sees the shit scaler just fine. I was capturing things I thought I'd never be able to see outside of a CRT or my old s-video capture card... and even then, s-video capture cards are limited to 30 FPS. The Blackmagic Intensity capture cards are notoriously picky, but it didn't even blink with this scaler. It just works, quick & dirty.
Yes, the picture is just so, so shit, especially since I own an OSSC and have seen how good my captures look through that. Yes, the picture is stretched to 16:9, but that can easily be edited back to 4:3. But with superg's gscartsw_lite offering two SCART outputs, that means I can have one output dedicated to capturing with that shit scaler and have the other output going to my OSSC or fusionz916's Retrotek component converter to my CRT. In other words, *I never actually have to **_look_** at what that shit scaler outputs while playing.*
And, well, since the video quality is just so fucking shit (I mean... _goddamn_ it is really shit), I won't feel bad not getting a 1080p60 capture card for anything I'd want to capture with the shit scaler.
I want to see a cheaper device with native Euro Scart socket, native Component input and Optical/Coaxial in and out that will also digitalize an analogue sound signal.
You should try getting your hands on an OSSC and see if it takes the XRGB-mini to the wood shed or not.
Just want to tell you that there are still people watching your videos in 2022 !
☺ This video is excellent, thank you for sharing it and the Framemeister gives out brilliant picture quality. 😍 My ideal woman (I don't have a girlfriend) is excepting me for the way I am (I am a gamer, collector, I am a Star Trek & Star Wars fan plus when I'm not at work I like going out to fascinating places with my parents). 😐 Of course if that women tries to turn me into someone I'm not then we go our own separate ways.
That General Chaos intro tho! Anyway, I'm trying to get back into my N64 and Dreamcast. I got a crappy little CRT which has the best quality for these systems compared to the 2 LEDs I have, but things will get awkward when I'll try to run multiplayer and have 4 peeps crowdin around a 14 inch tv. I bought an AV to HDMI mini converter that was advertised as an upscaler but does ZERO for quality. I want this upscaler but don't wanna shell out $300 or more. My fiancé will shit a kitten because we're getting married this year. Would this absolutely be worth the bread to play retro games on an LED tv or would an RGB monitor be the way to go?
***** RGB monitor is always my first choice! But if you have to play on a LCD or Plasma... The XRGB Mini is the way to go!
I have an xRGB mini. I do think there is something about phosphor CRT monitors that make these retro consoles feel "right". xRGB mini is the best I can do right now, but it still feels "emulated". fake scan lines, playing on an LCD, I'm just tricking myself and all it makes me want is a real CRT display.
Zidane Steiner Yea thats what I feel too! XRGB feels like emulation. Actually its is because we're emulating scanlines! Playing on a real RGB monitor completes the love of playing on real hardware!
Gotts love them scan lines.
The shitty HDMI scaler, like you say, is useful for capturing video. I use one for capturing all my old consoles when live streaming. My Avermedia capture device only takes 480i signals and up, and only through component or HDMI. So the shitty scaler is actually perfect for capturing my old consoles, while I play on my Sony PVM monitor. I use a SCART distribution amplifier to split the signal to the shitty scaler and to my Sony PVM.
Very good channel. I subbed.
I like that you go in depth on each subject you cover. Looks like you really know your stuff too when it comes to video display. I trust your opinion highly on the matter now
I haven't seen the Framemeister at work in person but the results look pretty damn awesome. But $400? Jesus...
But yeah, I like that it allows you to play on a big screen.
I own the shitty HDMI upscaler, and I agree about the blur in the background and the lag. But you know what? When you consider it's price ($40-$50), I think it's a damn fine stopgap until being able to afford the Framemeister or an RGB monitor(RGB monitors aren't cheap either...)
Speaking of that : I have a line for a 19" PVM for $200. Do you think I should go for it? It's not "thrift shop find" cheap, but I don't think I'll find one online for cheaper anytime soon...
FinalBaton What kind of PVM? There are a lot i would not pay 200 for! Thanks for the sub :-)
phonedork Well I ended up buying a Sony KV-36FV300 and I am EXTREMELY happy with my purchase :)
That is one hell of a set. Wow
Nice job with the review.
I have been thinking of buying on of these for a while, but the price is just too high IMO. I'd grab one for under $200.
I just have a couple questions.
1. What program are you using for the lag test.
2. I also have a Sony Wega 27" CRT with component inputs. Should I grab SCART RGB cables for as many old consoles as possible and run them through the SCART to Component converter? Or is there a better method?
Thanks!
videogameobsession I use the Sega Genesis "240P Test Suite"
Its easy to google and get the free ROM. You will need a Everdrive or some type of flash cart to load it. Go to manual lag test and wait for the shapes to line up then press the C button when they are exactly aligned. Your setup is what I had two years ago :-). I had the same TV! It is great with the CSY2100 or the clone RGB to Component Transcoder. Since the device is merely a transcoder and not a upscaler, it comes in 240P and out 240P. There should be 0 LAG on that CRT. Most LCDs don't except 240P through component but some do. But when they do, the TV itself will upscale it to 480I no matter what and add lag. That is why there is no scan lines. On that Sony WEGA I had awesome results. No color bleed, nice picture, and no lag. The difference between that and a real RGB monitor is you cannot toggle the geometry or raster to your perfection. You get what the TV displays. There is a more dynamic color range in a RGB monitor also. But at 27 inches with the component transcoder, you are playing the system better then you ever did as a child! It looks great! There is not a better method for that CRT. You have the right idea with doing with a component transcoder until one day you upgrade to a RGB monitor :-)
Cool. Thanks for the info.
I want to also set some consoles up on my Samsung 52" LCD. Judging by the model#, I believe it's the larger version of what your mom has. So hopefully I will have good results. I have have to start out with the cheap and dirty solution though (clone SCART to component). I don't do any SF2 tournaments or anything so a few MS of lag won't kill me.
I'll try that lag tester on the Genesis. I have an old school Super Magic Drive which I can load it up on... old ass floppy disk. :P
Yeah, I love the Wega. I used to play everything via Svideo and thought it was awesome until I connected my PS2 and GameCube via component cables. They looked so clear and the colors were so vivid. I want more of that.
If you're looking for a Flat Panel Display with low input lag check out Sony's KDL42w705
I have that one and it currently has the lowest input lag out of all Modern TV Displays at 13.5ms(according to the Leo Bodnar Input Lag tester)
There is no way that X-RGB and LCD setup has less than 1 frame of lag. Even the best LCD's around inherently have 16ms of lag with native content. The X-RGB alone usually adds an extra frame of lag, so at best you should be having 2 frames of lag.
480i is a bit of a love or hate for me. On a crt tv true GameCube, ps2 or xbox games in 480i can look fantasic and even better than 240p but on the other hand 480i’s flickering can be just a tiny bit irritating and like phonedork said 240p games look like shit in 480i. I personally feel luke-warm about de-interlacing it almost always ruins the image but when de-interlaced well it looks absolutely fantastic but I still prefer 480i on a crt obviously since crts are the best for 240p and 480i in my opinion. But the xrgb mini framemeister is fricken awesome best way to play 240p and 480i games on HD tv in my opinion.
Your videos are awesome
That TV is amazing but there is one big thing, it's only a 720p monitor, I have a really cheap old LCD HDTV TV from Haier that I got for free, but I like it because some how it has little lag just about 1 frame of lag and it really handles 480p well over it's internal scaler with about 1.5 Frames of lag too! It doesn't have a Game Mode however, but I have turned off every automatic setting for less input lag. The Colors on it aren't absolute perfect but they are near perfect.
Hey guys. After trawling though 100s of forum posts I still cannot find an answer to this question. Here we go:
First off, the XRGB introduces a (Leo Bodnar) input lag of around 22ms, or (roughly 1.3 frames at 60Hz).
The TV I'm looking at is the Sony KDL42W705B, which has a (Leo Bodnar) input lag of 14ms (roughly 0.9 frames at 60Hz)
So... my total input lag ought to be around 36ms (or 2.25 frames).
The XRGB produces great scanlines at 720p. But most displays are 1080p and will therefore need to upscale the 720p image to 1080p, thereby introducing more lag. Nobody mentions this anywhere. The amount of lag introduced by the TV's internal upscaler.
Have any of you tried this? Does a 720p XRGB output to a 1080p display cause any additional / noticeable lag as caused by the TV's internal upscaling?
Many thanks in advance.
Very nice review. Almost makes me want to get one just to have it. But I'm fine with my PVM-2950Q for now. I attempted to upgrade to an XM29, but UPS broke it during shipment.
I am sure the PVM is just as good as the NEC.
phonedork I think you are right. But I wanted something that would do 480p as well for GC/PS2. After I got it though I found out it doesn't accept a 480p component signal? So maybe there is no RGB CRT that does both regular RGB 240p/480i and component 480p?
LaC64 Unfortunately though the NEC XM29 can do higher than 480P signals it does not except component. Only VGA which is great for Dreamcast. My Sony PVM 20L5 is what you want!!! That thing takes everything you can throw at it minus HDMI! It does component and RGB! Plus it is tad sharper than my NEC because it is 20 inches!
Thanks for the review!
I love Scanlines!!!
Great review.
Just figured out why had great results with your mom's TV. Those 32" Samsung TVs were usually native 720p, 3 x 240p, no fucking around to downscale from 1080p to 720p.
I get 0.5 frames of lag on my new Samsung UHD TV, 2160p is 9 x 240p.
awesome vid, subbed
phonedork Nice video bro :) But i have a question for you. What did you use to calculate the video lag?
+Stealthbat007 I use the junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite
I have "The shitty one" and I am getting a framemeister myself, but I don't see the difference between the two (since I haven't found a normal video that shows that). Also where on earth can you even BUY one of those RBG monitors, specifically the trinitron ones?
Nice video, my question is the added processing lag from the XRGB a factor when it comes to input lag? I really want to get one of these to play my PS2 and SNES console on by LED TV but I'm a bit worried about the lag added, since my TV already has a 29 ms, which doesn't seem to be too noticeable...although adding more lag kind of makes it a tough plunge to make for that price tag, and i'm VERY finicky when it comes to input lag since I like to play alot of games that require twitchy-fast reactions, particularly NES/SNES systems which has ALOT of those kinds of games.
Another question, is there a video out there that shows how PSP looks with the XRGB out there? That's another system i'd like to use this for if that's possible, i'm curious as to how PSP would look using the upscaler.
Cool vid!
Great video! Would you know if there's an updated version of that tv you liked in a 40 inch format?
Weird. Your mom's TV is what I am watching this video on!
Hi there phonedork,
I want to know your opinion on the framemiester i got a Sony BVM 20F1U and the pictures quality is superb don't get me wrong but i got a consumer grade Sony crt and I'm hooking my ps2 to it playing a ps1 game final fantasy 6 and to be honest there is not that much difference LIKE MAXIMUM would be something like 15% better picture for the BVM but that's like the maximum difference I would give.
Please tell me how good does the framemiester hooked up through an OLED TV would compare to those tv's mentioned above.
William Marston Not that great in comparison. CRT tech is just too good.
This may actually create a used market for 720p displays just like old CRTs do today for gamers.. Weird
what is the game shown at 16:15 and 21 mintes? Never seen such gorgeous retro animations. Probably on a console I never owned...
metal slug 3 on neo geo aes
Just subbed, you are hilarious yo lol
Would love one of these but man oh man 400$. was it below 200$ i would buy it instantly.