As someone who was actually kidnapped on my mission…. I won’t be watching “Heretic”. It’s been over 20 years, but the scars are still too fresh for me.
@@queenbee18183 did he happen to go to South America? I know my mission was very dangerous. I was the only one of all the missionaries I met the hadn't been held up with a gun or knife, but I did get hit by a car, TWICE, and stalked by a pervert to where I had to have an Elder come in splits with my comp and I for a while, and I also saw a man get stabbed to death across the street from our pención.
Whenever a book or movie comes out that egregiously misrepresents my faith, I'm reminded of the first Sherlock Holmes novel, 'A Study in Scarlet'. The murder Holmes investigates takes place in London, but the events that led to the crime happened in Salt Lake City more than a decade prior to the London murder. The author's depiction of the Mormons living in Utah is not only derogatory, it bears no resemblance to life in Utah at the time (or any time since). He gets the geography wrong, he gets the system of government (both civil and church) wrong, and, of course, he gets Mormon doctrine wrong. When I first tried to read the novel as a teenager, I had to put it down. Not because I was offended, but because it was like really bad science fiction where nothing made sense. For much of this, Arthur Conan Doyle can be forgiven. He was less than 30-years old when he wrote 'A Study in Scarlet', an his depictions of Mormon life were consistent with what was widely reported in the British popular press. He described Mormons as venal, power-mad, sexual perverts because he honestly thought that's what they were in real life. The problem is his errors are so large and so numerous that they greatly distract from the story. So, too, with 'Heretic' and other offerings that grossly mischaracterize a religious or ethnic group. Those who are familiar with the group and its mores will be distracted by the obvious errors in the telling of the story. It's simply bad art.
I can agree with this. I don’t really care about being misrepresented in a horror movie other than it just annoys me that the writing is bad. Good writers should write about things they actually know
@@joshua.snyder "Yet, Conan Doyle wasn't wrong." Oh, please. In his depiction of Mormon life, Doyle got virtually every detail -- large and small -- wrong. In his story, the Utah victims escaped from Salt Lake City (SLC) by going into the mountains east of the city on their way to Nevada. Doyle's map must have been poor. Nevada is west of Utah. You cannot get there by going into the mountains east of SLC. West of the city are the salt flats, which the party would need to cross to get to Nevada. Doyle also said SLC was ruled by a group of 4 men, who ran both the church and the government. Those who weren't 'good Mormons' were killed by those working for the 4. Again, nothing could be further from the truth. Not long after SLC was established, Catholics migrated to Utah (many to work in the mines, in the mountains east of SLC). With the help of the Mormon community, the Catholics built a church and have been an important part of the city community ever since. In Doyle's story, the motovation for the flight of the Utah victims from SLC was a young women in their group was being forced to mary a Mormon leader as a reward for his loyal service to the 4. That kind of thing did not happen. Each individual's free agency -- the God given right to make choices for themselves -- is sacred to Mormons and has been from the founding of the church. So, Utah wasn't under the iron-handed rule of the 4; people weren't forced to live by Mormon rules or die; women weren't forced into marriage; and you can't get to Nevada from SLC by going through the mountains to the east of the city. What, exactly, did Doyle get right?
I think its accurate that some mormon leaders in the past could be described as venal, power-mad, sexual perverts, but thats the case with any religion or political group. These 'dark triad' type people seek these positions of power in religion and politics most especially. But yeah, it would be an absurd claim pointed towards pretty much any group.
The question to ask those who attack your faith...why do they care...and what do they offer in its place? Why of all the things to dedicate your fight against; why the need to attack forgiveness and repentance? Even if all of Christianity was a grand fairytale...Why attack the most beautiful successful uplifting philosophy upon which the most successful societies are built. I gave discovered when I confront with these questions...the beast truly comes out and the contempt for good and happiness is disturbing.
Glad to be the first to be here, and glad that so many people of faith are reviewing this show honestly and representing us Latter-Day Saints the way we should be represented. Thanks for your opinions and keep up the good work.
I don't see how anyone who actually watched the movie would characterize it as trolling or LDS-exploitive. The sister missionaries were far from one dimensional characters. IMO the sisters were portrayed as smart, brave, kind, & sincere. I think Heretic is a PR win for LDS. Every LDS character was utterly sympathetic to "gentiles".
In no way was it trolling; it was taking two opposing viewpoints, making one of them an extremist, and then making a horror story out of it. I watched the movie with a return missionary and he found that they portrayed the missionaries with dignity and strength.
Jeff is so wrong when he says the hero is the psychopath. This is so dumb how they are discussing it without having watched it. They need at least one person in the convo who has watched it, or they don't have much to discuss.
Yeah I have pretty much seen the worst takes on this movie and every single one is a member who didn’t see it. How can you criticize a thing without even experiencing it or at least engaging in the topic. This movie was not anti Mormon and the only thing it’s doing is making Mormons look even more ridiculous by exposing them to be fake pearl clutchers.
@elijiahburgess5506 Exactly. I don't understand when people in my church will condemn this movie without seeing it when in the past the same people would have called out people's hypocrisy for condemning the Book of Mormon when they haven't read it either. Granted, not everyone in the Church is like this though. In my experience, it has only been a handful
As a Catholic I can empathize with you about gross misrepresentation. After hearing spoilers of the movie, I definitely won't see it. Hollywood clearly hates religion.
Yes, Catholics have been hit on even bigger screens. I have a lot of family who are Catholic and served my mission in a VERY Catholic country. It makes me sad when any religious group or people bash any other group.
Heretic is a strange one. The bad guy is clearly bad. But he's also pretty clearly the person who most closely aligns with the writer's and actors views on the topic. The movie seemed more interested in delivering a feature-length version of a 3-minute long atheist tiktok video than delving into the paradox the story set up. That is: how can stories made up to exert control and power create better people than the truth?
Well said. I think my problem with Jacob and Jeff’s criticism is that I think the movie is self-aware of the hypocrisy because they made the guy who aligns with their views to be a sociopath. My main problem with the movie is the overall lazy writing. Weird to make it rated R but then present middle school arguments
Have you actually researched their world views? Many agnostics leaning on the side of a higher power, including versions of Christianity, have realized the plot potential of extremists on the side of nihilism. For all you know the authors do beleive there is some sort of higher power, but they are willing to look at religious coincidences to give a character, they don't necessarily agree with, his supporting evidence for his views. Don't assume; research or assume a lack of your own knowledge...
I came across the portrayal of an Anglican priest in a series where the priest is forgiving, helps out the protagonist in a time of crisis, does not tell him what to think but guides him to think on difficult questions, and doesn't ask for anything in return. I was so used to media trashing any religious figure, that I kept waiting for the shoe to drop. Alright, when do we find out that he's the bad guy? Because it would so naive to believe that *anyone* would *actually* devote their time to just trying to make other peoples lives better. I mean, we trust companies, and politicians, and news outlets, but trusting someone who *doesn't* have a monetary conflict of interest? A bridge too far.
I appreciate you both Jacob and Jeff. I love Jesus Christ and am so grateful for his gospel. It’s always been strange to me how people try to tear down faith in Him. But It has always been that way, even when prophets testified of him before his first coming.
Excalty.. also one way to read to the film is that Grants false beielfs leads to his downfall. He falsely assumed Sister Paxton wouldn’t reoquize a birth control implant .. anyone who says these are caricatures hasn’t seen the film
This video is a joke. They look like straight clowns. Haven’t even seen the movie. This is just them parroting all their other videos with the movie review as clickbait.
As someone who’s never been Mormon & watches Mormon content, although I watch the faithful stuff, I have of course watched anti stuff too, I originally started to learn. Very quickly though I realized, I wouldn’t really fit in with the “anti ppl” & yes I agree 100% that they love it because it confirms their priors. They want to hear that this “white patriarchal religion” is bad, bottom line. I’m a person on the right & i do believe in God, so I had a really hard time listening to anti stuff. Even if I disagree with points you make, I give you or whoever the benefit of the doubt. The anti ppl are just like “Jacob is evil & dumb” & again it confirms their priors because you’re a white religious conservative male.
@cocadean that's Dualism not Christianity. Mormons are funny because it's more a random mixture of random heresies The existence of a good God doesn't mean there's an evil God opposing him
I don’t subscribe to ex Mormons who talk trash about the church on UA-cam to make money and attract the audience. I left Jehovah’s Witnesses because I couldn’t handle the hectic church schedules and I love my work too much. So I left the church quietly and didn’t talk bad about the church. No church has the completely accurate knowledge but God looks at our heart condition. God can tell whether we truly love Him. In due time, I will find my home church after I left a Lutheran church a few years ago due to unpleasant and hostile political environment.
11:07 yes! Absolutely yes. That is one person you should go to! Not the only person but yes. To frame this another way… A disgruntled employee can give you an unfiltered view of the company. Current employees might be reluctant to speak openly if they want to keep their jobs, but someone who’s no longer invested can reveal issues that insiders are hesitant to share. Talking to them can help you uncover potential red flags that might otherwise go unnoticed.
You are absolutely correct! ...Unless said former employee quit because they were bitter and bad at their job and felt like they "never got noticed for their hard work" even though they failed every performance review. They exist, I've worked with many
I haven’t seen Heretic but I did see Conclave about the selection process of a new Pope. The premise was that there is corruption at the highest levels of the Catholic church. I'm not Catholic and have no opinion about the choosing of a Pope. I perceive the actual current Pope, whom LDS President Nelson met with, is a God-focused person. I went to see the movie because I like a couple of actors in it and I usually see everything they're in. I took the movie as a fictional account. After the movie I came across a statement from the Catholic Church, denouncing the movie. I realize now that the danger of negatively fictionalizing real events and people associated with any specific religions, can be disrespectful and misinformative and perpetuates negativity and exploitation towards those religions.
In defence of Mormon Stories never-Mo audience: many viewers grew up in other high-demand religions and find parallels and some comfort feeling they're not alone.
Thanks for sharing this, Jeff and Jacob 😊 I'm a fan of both of you guys, and it was cool to see both of you in a video, especially so given that you were both on the same page pretty much throughout it. I've now watched what I think are all of the Latter-day Saint (and 1 evangelical Christian ) reviews of this movie so have a pretty good idea of what it's about. I have no intention whatsoever of watching it, but it's nice to hear these opinions on it. Even if it didn't have Latter-day Saint missionaries misrepresented, and/or as main characters, I still wouldn't have wanted to watch it, as this type of horror movie has never appealed to me, nor do the vast majority of horror movies, for similar reasons. The only 2 Halloween themed movies that I like are pretty much just these 2 (unless there are other old ones that I cannot think of right now) : 1) The Others (2001) 2) Ernest Scared Stupid (1991)
I will say it’s interesting that the atheist, although he thinks he knows everything, is the psychopath murderer. Even though I hate the portrayal toward the Church and faith, I think there is also a message in how strict atheism is destructive.
I won't be watching this movie because I can't stand "Saw" type movies. Remember that the adversary does not go after people he already has in his pocket, so The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other Christians will be "gone after" to discredit, misrepresent, and destroy.
This is not a saw type movie 😂 most of the movie is just dialogue. It’s a psychological thriller that makes you think about religion. Don’t be dramatic
I'm a believing Latter-day Saint and I have my face in my hands this whole video so far. This movie is a horror/thriller with Latter-day Saints as the protagonists. It is not a hit piece on Latter-day Saints or religion. The person who espouses anti-religion rhetoric in the movie is the villain--a literal psycho killer. Latter-day Saints fully rebut him, uncover his plot, and show out faith the entire film. Its frustrating to hear people go on about this movie who haven't taken the time to watch it and judge it on its own merits--this film was clearly trying to accurately and positively represent the LDS protagonists; it was not trying to be an advertisement for the church.
Thank you! Jacob and Jeff got so much wrong, especially saying the representations were not accurate. Maybe the only correct part was his critisism of the birth control representation, and that is only because the current stance is fine with it when in the past it was looked down on and shamed.
I agree. That's how I took it. We have so many religions represented in all types of movie genre and the LDS community is far underrepresented in them, so I think it's fine, just don't support gross errors on points of Doctrine
Based on the limited bits I've seen/heard, it does seem like the film is more an eximination of faith and the choice we make to have it. From what I can tell, faith/belief, in the end are the victors of the film, but i could be way wrong on that. But even if it props faith up, I'm not too interested in seeing it because the horror genre isn't usually my thing.
We should take a win where we can because our films just suck really bad due to budget and popular media largely hates us for our views. If we go out crying at everyone who tries to put our faith in popular media because we are pearl clutching Christian’s then no one will take us seriously. And you know what? I actually liked under the banner of heaven and I baptized someone due to it. When antagonists to our faith make better church history films than us then we really have a problem. I think this is time for self reflection.
@byucatch22 Yes, an examination of faith or eligious beliefs is a good way to put it. It's thought-provoking, and most people have had the same questions or similar ones. I was surprised how much it went from a thiller to a horror movie but i still enjoyed it even though horror isn’t my thing usually.
I’m only here for the legion of anti-Mormon trolls who rush to EVERY LDS UA-cam channel to share their positivity, happiness and love everytime ANY LDS media figure posts online Thank you, I can feel the happiness you spread with your repeated posts Side note Is there such a thing as MDS? “Mormon derangement Syndrome”
I’m a Latter-day Saint who saw heretic and actually loved it. Was it a perfect representation of who we are or what we believe? No, but I thought it was one of the best I’ve seen in Hollywood (which honestly isn’t saying much). The missionary characters were given lots of depth and strength and the villain is obviously portrayed as being insane and crazy and evil. It encourages the audience to root for the missionaries, and to think about why you believe the things you believe. I wasn’t offended in any way, but rather enjoyed the movie.
What I find so off-base with the “useful or comforting fiction” view of Christianity or of faith. Is that in my experience and most Christians, even other religionists, faith and religion for sure brings comfort and guidance to big questions but creates immense existential and moral duties and judgments that I now have to contend with.
Mollywood needs to come back so we can get some actual substantial discourse in the movies. I’m not convinced the writers or actors could even put themselves in the shoes of missionaries. Maybe I’d like the story. But “magic underwear” is such a cartoonishly large red flag that it renders the rest of the film irrelevant. How could you make such a massive beginner’s mistake?
Pastor Jeff, this has been happening for SOOOOO long! You’re only just now becoming aware of it. But I promise you, it’s been a thing for a long time. All that to say, I’m glad you’re seeing it. I have complained on occasion about these types of things to non-LDS friends, and they usually shoot back with something like “oh, that happens to every religion”.
To be fair, you belong to a religion started by a convicted conman who told people he could find buried treasure with a stone and diving rod, who cheated on his wife with his maid, Fanny Algar, long before he got revelation of polygamy, you belong to a religion that controls your underwear, you belong to a religion containing the book of Abraham--a text that has been proven false. You belong to a religion that teaches Native Americans came from Jerusalem--when it's been proven their blood is Asiatic. On the whole, you're religion is truly one that should be the butt of the jokes--just like Scientology.
Man who consistently preaches against the Church says that Hollywood made a gross representation of the LDS paradigm. Pastor Jeff misses. We weren't created to worship God, if that were true God would be a narcissistic weirdo. We are God's children. He loves us. He wants us to be with Him. He sent His Only Begotten Son to save us and bring us back. God loves us, He loved us first. This Protestant idea of being created to worship God is so nonsensical. We are God's offspring (Acts 17:29; genos). He is our Father. What Father wouldn't want their children with Them?
No need to hate on pastor Jeff just because he has theological differences from us. Too many people do that to us. Pastor Jeff seems very respectable and Christlike and we should emulate those aspects of his character even if we disagree doctrinally
I don’t think your coming of hateful. But I would like to add to the conversation. Do you think we will ever outgrow worshipping God? Personally I don’t think so, in fact as we grow more like Him, the greater our worship of Him will be. We were created to worship the higher, as Pastor Jeff stated, and He is the Highest. That’s not to say I disagree with Jeff as to how one does worship. That is where your statement that He wants us to come to Him, as Jesus invited us to do, and be more like Him until the perfect day comes in. (I’m like Tevia from Fiddler on the roof: he is right, and you are also right)😂😂
Im religious but get me on some cult documentaries and I can watch for hours about Scientology, flds, or camp davidian stuff. So i think its not just confirmation bias that causes people to watch. Unless I'm secretly against religion somehow.
I heard about a documentary about evangelicals called Jesus Camp. I heard it makes them look abusive and insane. I won't see it. I'll stick to my own experience.
What do Protestants believe that Christ overcame when he was resurrected if they don’t believe resurrection involves the reunion of spirit and body? What do they think happened when others were resurrected after Jesus was resurrected?
@@Doccraniowe receive a Glorified body of fresh and bone : it's NOT human anymore and why your HF cannot be a literal parent of you. How does H Mother play a roll in being a parent??? When did she receive her body???
Oh yeah, you’re thankful for review of a movie that two men didn’t even see and everything. They said didn’t even match up with what happened in the movie. Yeah, I’ll always go to movie reviews by people who haven’t seen the actual movie. Oy vey !!!
I don’t agree with you guys about this. What you are saying reminds me of a bit Kumail Nanjiani did about Freddy Kruger choosing between attacking a white girl and a black girl, and he says something about “dark meat,” and everyone in the theater groans because they can implicitly go along with the sociopathic murders, but racism? Intolerable. It’s just a horror movie. Nobody cares about accurate religious representation in this context.
The difference is a bad guy isn’t just making fun of us but the entire movie is lying about who we are. It’s like if the black girl was ignorant, criminal, watermelon loving racist stereotype.
The foundation of Christianity is in Ephesians 2:19-20, the foundation of Apostles and Prophets and Jesus Christ is the Chief Corner Stone, all Christians built-up on the rock of Jesus Christ, Amene
I'm a never-mo who listens to podcasts of both TBMs and ex-Mos because I like people who take the subject of religion seriously. Jeff & Jacob missed the mark on Heretic. The sister missionaries are the heroes and the anti-religion zealot is clearly a villain (not an "antihero")! Any member of any faith that can't enjoy a movie solely based on a less than 100% accurate portrayal their religion or its members needs to develop a thicker skin. I'm Roman Catholic and have rarely seen an accurate portrayal of my faith or its members. Nor are we depicted in a sympathetic light. Movies tell stories. They are not documentaries. LDS members should note that their religion in Heretic was chosen to represent all faiths against an antitheist lunatic. That's quite a level of acceptance IMO.
The evangelical hasn’t even seen the movie!? Wtf is he doing criticizing it? What a joke. Literally projecting what he thinks it is onto it. This is not an anti Mormon movie.
I haven't seen it but I know a few details: it seems like it would make changes to sending out young woman without support during the evening hours after dark. This is a real probability of what could happen to them.
This movie might help keep Mormon girls stay safe: a lone missionary girl came to my door once and I was shocked that she didn't have a partner even though it was midday, but she was alone at the door. And Roseville ca isn't a bad area but still bad things can happen even there.
The movie villain feels reminiscent of the joker in The Dark Knight or Joker movies. Disenfranchised people said that the Joker went too far, but made some good points and he became an anti hero and symbol of worship. The same will likely happen with Mr. Reed from Heretic, for the anti religious.
@ You’re right. It’s a bad comparison. “Worship” is a charged word I used hyperbolicly. I’m just remembering the teens around me at the time that loved Joker’s burn it all down message. I’m simply troubled by the thought of anti religious people defending Mr. Reeds arguments, if not his methods. I’ve already heard it in some online reviews of the movie. But some of his arguments have merit, so that’s also probably an overreaction on my part. 😮💨
I enjoyed this movie, even with the inaccuracies that were made. It does continue to show the harm caused by the church's official narrative about Joseph Smith being a pedophile instead of admitting that polygamy was instigated by Brigham, and Joseph was a moral, virtuous man who spoke out vehemently against polygamy, even excommunicating those involved in that abomination when it came to his attendion. As long as they continue to press forward with the lies, people are going to wrongly believe that Joseph was an immoral man. They are in a bit of a conundrum, sure, because for their authority claims they NEED to pin polygamy on Joseph. If they told the truth, it would open a can of worms about Brigham. Also, the Book of Mormon predates most of the NT, and much of the OT, so Grant's character got that part wrong. Not too surprising, since many people arent interested in actually digging in and studying the issue precisely because of the "official narrative" that makes the founder such a scoundrel. Every people will speak ill of him, he was told. Including those who belong to churches that claim him as their founder. Very sad.
This episode is brainrot. Thank you for review a bunch of media about mormons that you " haven't and won't ever watch". I really appreciate your "informed opinion".😅
I haven't seen this movie and probably won't but from my experience on my mission. If anyine just threaten the Sisters let alone actually hurt them there would have been blood but I was missionary during covid and we had a lot of weird stuff happened.
Have ANY of you people actually seen the film? Based on all these ridiculous closed minded and sheepy comments I’m gonna say no. You are exactly what the movie is about. This couldn’t be more ironic. Yall are hilarious!
I eye roll any time I read a story or watch a movie & a character is shown to be "religious/some flavor of Christian". 9 out of 10 times that character will made into a bad guy or a hypocrite. At best, usually a bit naive & "uncool".
I was excited to see you both discuss this movie. But you do a disservice to the conversation by not having watched it. It’s clear that you missed a lot of nuance and depth because the facts are all secondhand.
INVITATION I know that there are righteous beings in every faith. I do believe the righteous will be saved, but not only saved but will hear more of Gods word and accept it. I’m excited to say that God has sent more of His word. This is the most important invitation you will receive in your life. Please read the Book of Mormon it will change your life and eternity for the good. Don’t leave this life without saying that you’ve at least read this book that millions claim to be further light and knowledge from our loving Father in Heaven. It’s a record of an ancient people who dwelt in the Americas 1500+ years ago. The gospel of Jesus Christ of latter day saints is the only true church upon the earth. I’ve studied the gospel of Jesus Christ for 57yrs, read the Book of Mormon 50+ times and through the manifestation of the Holy Spirit to my spirit I know it to be true and this church to be the only true church upon the earth, God being my witness can strike me down if I am wrong. Why further sacred scriptures? It’s another testament of Jesus Christ. Reference to Him is mentioned in this record 3925 times, for good reason. So we can learn from those who lived by rules and those who didn’t. Helps us have a greater appreciation for our creator who we constantly need. We are all dependent on His grace and mercy to live, learn and function. This revealed sacred record teaches us more than just salvation, to live forever. Immortality connotes life without end. Salvation is immortality. I also believe most people who have lived on the earth will receive at least a measure of salvation. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life_exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. This is the life in Heaven God desires for each and everyone of His children. Eternal life is Gods greatest gift. I invite you to do a personal search of the Book of Mormon. This book will separate the wheat from the tares. Are you going to be among the number willing to seek for more of Gods light and knowledge? Don’t do it to seek for another faith, just do it to find out for yourself if God truly did indeed send more then what’s contained in the Bible. Keep reading your Bible but don’t let satan separate you from more light and knowledge sent from God. Does it make sense that God sends us to earth, encourages us to get married and procreate for it to end when mortality ends? God said to His apostles, “whatsoever Thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.” The glad tidings of great joy delivered to the shepherds in the fields was that a special baby was born which makes possible for all to have your wives and family into the eternities through the life, blood and mission of our loving Savior Jesus Christ. Quoting our current Prophet and President, “The Book of Mormon is filled with truth. If you read it daily, you will have more truth and power in your life. It teaches us about the premortal world and the purpose of life. It gives more understanding about the Atonement of Jesus Christ than any other book of scripture and teaches us about the reality of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the holy priesthood. Studying daily from its pages will affect your life in a way no other book can.” “If you will feast on the words of Christ found throughout the Book of Mormon, I promise that you will have greater power to resist temptation,increased ability to receive revelation,and a greater capacity to deal with the challenges of life.”-President Russel M. Nelson 
It's called "The Best Christmas Pageant Ever". We saw a trailer for it last month when we saw "6 Days in August", which was also a very good movie. We will definitely see this Christmas one also.
Seriously, two men who have not watched the movie doing a review on it and trying to ban it is ridiculous. This movie is anything but anti-Jesus. I’m a true and devoted follower of Jesus Christ and this movie did not bother me whatsoever. In fact, Christians everywhere should see this movie and so latter-day Saints. If this movie did anything for latter-day Saints, it made the women look strong and capable; something the LDS church can’t even do. If anything this movie would help you grow closer to God without all the fluff . I’m sorry but being a pastor sucking up to the LDS church makes me question whether or not he truly is a believer in Jesus Christ! Lastly, if it can do anything, it should have the LDS church teaching their missionaries self-defense. Something they should’ve done a long time ago, especially in a world is dangerous as ours.
I thought the movie was entertaining and the guy who had some kind of dumb but edgy things to say was a total psychopath so I'm not entirely sure what the message was supposed to be. (Spoiler) In the end prayer was effective and the afterlife was all but confirmed. Definitely got nixed signals but i was on the edge of my seat.
30:10 and to this point isn’t it the Bible that teaches us that Jesus brings justice to the world? The Bible is where we read that the poor and humble will be exalted and the proud and mighty will be abased. There is no better paradigm to make sense of the injustice and inequality that exists in this world than to know that because Jesus overcame the world, even the most humble and abased person in this life can and will be exalted.
Jeff and Jacob both misrepresented non-believers by saying they all place their faith in something like idols. I guess they don't realize faith is belief without evidence? They are using the word faith to mean trust or values, which isn't the same thing as believing in false things.
According to atheism, what is “trust” and what is a “value”? Where do those things come from, and what makes them “good”? According to atheism, our very existence is an accident, so that makes everything arbitrary. So, Jacob is correct. Even if you’re an atheist you put your faith in something, and according to atheism, that something is literally nothing.
According to Athiesm? Since when was Athiesm ever considered a belief system? You are doing the same thing by strawmanning the "athiest" position. Every person defines their values differently whether you believe in Jesus, Mohammad, Zues, or none of them. Values come from society and trust comes from experience. Do you disagree with Hebrews 11 that faith is belief without evidence? How does it make sense that an athiest, or non Christian has belief without evidence in their job, or whatever they find important? You didn't explain how Jacob or jeff are correct unless you don't believe Hebrews defines faith correctly.
@@jonny6man - Agnosticism is saying, "I don't know." Atheism is saying, "I know, and there's NOT". Atheism makes the claim that there is NOT a God. And if there's not a God, then what is there? What are we? What are we doing here? Is it all arbitrary? If it's all arbitrary, then this is all meaningless. And if it's all meaningless, then what in the world is anyone even talking about when they say that things like racism is wrong? Values come from society? Yikes. That means values can change. And if values can change, then why not change them now? For example, If society now says that school shootings are bad and evil, then at some point society can say they're cool, right? So, if they can be cool later, why can't they be cool now? See how that works? If all we are is a bunch of meat sacks floating in space, then how can we trust that? What is there to even trust? The brain named itself. If all we are is electrical impulses in a meat chunk, how can we trust that? How can we trust that we even know anything? So yes, when I say "According to Atheism..." there's an implication there. See, atheists may not believe in God, but they believe in SOMETHING. They put their trust and values in SOMETHING. Atheists still live and act in this world and make choices based upon some kind of hierarchical value structure. The problem is, they have no coherent narrative as to where that structure came from. And if it only just comes from ourselves, then it's meaningless. Us being our own authority is scary.
@@harmonillustration Many atheist take an agnostic position, acknowledging uncertainty about the existence of gods rather than making absolute claims. The idea that without a god, life is meaningless, is a philosophical leap. Many atheists find profound meaning in life through family, art, science, and human connection. As an atheist I confidently say racism is wrong because it goes against my values. Saying racism is wrong is just how society has determined it. Just like in Ancient Israel times and early American history, slavery was normal and not condemned as wrong except under certain conditions. Values and morality evolve from our capacity for reason, empathy, and our understanding of collective well-being. Saying that changing values could lead to acceptance of harmful behaviors ignores the role of reason and empathy in shaping moral norms. Once again you are claiming Atheist believe in something, but then you agree with me and state that they put their trust and values in something. You can have trust and value something as an atheist without having to believe false truth narratives. This doesn't mean they place "faith" into things like their jobs, family, fun things. You really sound like you are in a bad place if using evidence eventually convinces you God isn't directing your life and that your life would then be meaningless. That's really sad that being your own authority is so scary to you. Therapy can hopefully help you.
@@jonny6man - "You really sound like you are in a bad place" So, either you've completely misunderstood what I was saying, or I'm a terrible communicator. haha. I was trying to argue like Jacob does in this episode: ua-cam.com/video/UFIP_WdTIlI/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
The public has misconception about birth control because there WAS a policy against it in handbook & admonitions by prophets for the large majority of the religion’s existence until it was quietly updated in what the 2020 handbook? Why not do an episode detailing this 180 change the prophets made so that the public is more aware this is ok now? But don’t erase the sacrifice & obedience my parents had to this rule & told me about many times as child #10. Thank you. Just like you wouldn’t erase the sacrifice of my sister wife ancestors who followed polygamy. I’d prefer the topic was treated like polygamy. Aknowledge it WAS a policy & honor those that were obedient & then explain when & how & why the policy changed. Thank you.
Agreed. It sounds like the movie's presentation is distorted, but so is Jacob's brief / oversimplified claim that this is totally a private couple's decision in the LDS world.
@ agree but I think church could clear this up for those in public that still believe lds can’t use bc like catholic or others. Yes we can now use it although previously for majority of our existence our members could not.
@@tarabates7088 Birth control was a private couple's decision when my husband and I were married in the LDS world 37 years ago and it was a private matter when my parents were married over 60 years ago. Who else is getting involved where you live?
@@hrobinson9701 Spencer W. Kimball repeatedly taught young LDS folks to get married in their early twenties, as soon after men's mission as possible, and to "not delay" having children. This is why the birthrate among LDS was so much higher during the 70s and 80s than among the broader American population. You and your parents may have taken a different interpretation from this messaging, but many LDS people understood it as a commandment and a rather serious one. Both men and women made tremendous sacrifices to be obedient. I'll grant that the teachings / culture has changed, but to suggest that this never happened feels like blacklighting to me.
@@tarabates7088 There is a big difference between not delaying having children and not using birth control. There is also a difference between teachings from the prophet and general authorities and an implication that local bishops got involved in bedroom practices of their congregations. My husband and I asked once or twice about birth control as most people "knew" that was not allowed and we were told that when we had children, how many we had and whether or not to use birth control was a prayerful matter between us and the Lord, and no one else's business.
It’s obvious to even the most casual observer that this film could have told an effective story without cheap hits on LDS sister missionaries or the LDS religion. Millions of faithful members will be skipping it. I often wonder if film writers/directors are okay with alienating some of their potential audience and ticket buyers in order to push an agenda. Some even appear to harbor a grudge. Weak and off putting.
They didnt purposely go out and cast former church members for the roles of the sister missionaries using the "whistleblower mentality" like you mentioned, thats silly. They only learned about their past LDS affiliation after they already liked the 2 actresses. Maybe you could say that "God works in mysterious ways" And just generally agree with other comments that its pretty wild to give thoughts and reviews of a movie you haven't seen. If you haven't seen the film then just dont make a video about it, seems pretty straightforward.
Also Watch The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina It also gives A Bad Name from missionaries and the missrepresentations from the church the missionaries there got fake nametags Lmaooo
The divide between Protestants and lds are the invention of the false spirit of dead religions. The real divide is between us and God his ways and plans are so much higher and holier then out filthy rags . There is no room in his kingdom for deserving, self righteous saints , priesthood pride. The only mechanisms of our salvation is Jesus, and the work he does in his body, he decides who is on the path, “the one true church” is a compromise we made with devil to tithe out our lives instead of complete surrender. I’m guilty Lds sinner who seeks to be born again. He only asks for everything! In return all that he has.
Been here in the middle of Utah my whole life and have never been manipulated into anything. I left for 7 years and came back on my own. Not a single ounce of manipulation to be seen. I’ve talked about this with all of my friends and they agree.
Of course you are 100% correct, but get ready for a lot of gaslighting coming your way. If the Mormon church was a video game character with traits you could score, control would be “99”. Sadly, love would be “50”
Matt Whitman has also tried to reach out to you and youve acted shady towards him!!!! I think Hello saints guy has a conflict of interest, is the Lds giving him money??
What are these 2 talking about? It's clear they haven't seen the film but just going on what others have said that also haven't seen the film. Pure nonsense!!
A paradigm is a set of ideas, perspective or standard and originated, and is used, in academic, sience and the business worlds. I rarely hear it in other fields but when i do, it's usually because it is being used by a person who want to come across as more intelligent than they are, and you are. What is wrong with saying 'Mormon' beliefs, doctrines or teachings. My granny and young people will know what he is talking about. These pseudo intellects are so boring but fool the naive.
As someone who was actually kidnapped on my mission…. I won’t be watching “Heretic”. It’s been over 20 years, but the scars are still too fresh for me.
yikes--so sorry that happened!
My husband was beat with a baseball bat on his mission. Yes we take risks everyday but risks are high on mission.
@@queenbee18183 did he happen to go to South America?
I know my mission was very dangerous. I was the only one of all the missionaries I met the hadn't been held up with a gun or knife, but I did get hit by a car, TWICE, and stalked by a pervert to where I had to have an Elder come in splits with my comp and I for a while, and I also saw a man get stabbed to death across the street from our pención.
@@LisaPFrampton I was in South Africa.
@@Cindybin46 Thanks
Pastor Jeff , thank you for always bringing this conversation back to Jesus Christ. Thanks for your testimony.
Pastor Jeff seems like a buddy that you could just hang out with. I love his perspective on this one. Great episode!
Whenever a book or movie comes out that egregiously misrepresents my faith, I'm reminded of the first Sherlock Holmes novel, 'A Study in Scarlet'. The murder Holmes investigates takes place in London, but the events that led to the crime happened in Salt Lake City more than a decade prior to the London murder. The author's depiction of the Mormons living in Utah is not only derogatory, it bears no resemblance to life in Utah at the time (or any time since). He gets the geography wrong, he gets the system of government (both civil and church) wrong, and, of course, he gets Mormon doctrine wrong. When I first tried to read the novel as a teenager, I had to put it down. Not because I was offended, but because it was like really bad science fiction where nothing made sense.
For much of this, Arthur Conan Doyle can be forgiven. He was less than 30-years old when he wrote 'A Study in Scarlet', an his depictions of Mormon life were consistent with what was widely reported in the British popular press. He described Mormons as venal, power-mad, sexual perverts because he honestly thought that's what they were in real life. The problem is his errors are so large and so numerous that they greatly distract from the story. So, too, with 'Heretic' and other offerings that grossly mischaracterize a religious or ethnic group. Those who are familiar with the group and its mores will be distracted by the obvious errors in the telling of the story. It's simply bad art.
You’re totally right. The deliberate errors are so distracting as to ruin any sense of suspension of disbelief.
I can agree with this. I don’t really care about being misrepresented in a horror movie other than it just annoys me that the writing is bad. Good writers should write about things they actually know
Yet, Conan Doyle wasn't wrong.
@@joshua.snyder "Yet, Conan Doyle wasn't wrong."
Oh, please. In his depiction of Mormon life, Doyle got virtually every detail -- large and small -- wrong. In his story, the Utah victims escaped from Salt Lake City (SLC) by going into the mountains east of the city on their way to Nevada. Doyle's map must have been poor. Nevada is west of Utah. You cannot get there by going into the mountains east of SLC. West of the city are the salt flats, which the party would need to cross to get to Nevada. Doyle also said SLC was ruled by a group of 4 men, who ran both the church and the government. Those who weren't 'good Mormons' were killed by those working for the 4. Again, nothing could be further from the truth. Not long after SLC was established, Catholics migrated to Utah (many to work in the mines, in the mountains east of SLC). With the help of the Mormon community, the Catholics built a church and have been an important part of the city community ever since.
In Doyle's story, the motovation for the flight of the Utah victims from SLC was a young women in their group was being forced to mary a Mormon leader as a reward for his loyal service to the 4. That kind of thing did not happen. Each individual's free agency -- the God given right to make choices for themselves -- is sacred to Mormons and has been from the founding of the church.
So, Utah wasn't under the iron-handed rule of the 4; people weren't forced to live by Mormon rules or die; women weren't forced into marriage; and you can't get to Nevada from SLC by going through the mountains to the east of the city. What, exactly, did Doyle get right?
I think its accurate that some mormon leaders in the past could be described as venal, power-mad, sexual perverts, but thats the case with any religion or political group. These 'dark triad' type people seek these positions of power in religion and politics most especially. But yeah, it would be an absurd claim pointed towards pretty much any group.
Jacob dosen't want to admit whether he watched it or not. That would make him a hypocrite.
The question to ask those who attack your faith...why do they care...and what do they offer in its place? Why of all the things to dedicate your fight against; why the need to attack forgiveness and repentance? Even if all of Christianity was a grand fairytale...Why attack the most beautiful successful uplifting philosophy upon which the most successful societies are built.
I gave discovered when I confront with these questions...the beast truly comes out and the contempt for good and happiness is disturbing.
Glad to be the first to be here, and glad that so many people of faith are reviewing this show honestly and representing us Latter-Day Saints the way we should be represented. Thanks for your opinions and keep up the good work.
Trolling religious people and exploiting LDS culture is weak and lazy.
I don't see how anyone who actually watched the movie would characterize it as trolling or LDS-exploitive. The sister missionaries were far from one dimensional characters. IMO the sisters were portrayed as smart, brave, kind, & sincere. I think Heretic is a PR win for LDS. Every LDS character was utterly sympathetic to "gentiles".
@@rhettaccardo8322 this commenter AND THE TWO GUYS IN THE VIDEO did not watch this movie. It’s absurd.
In no way was it trolling; it was taking two opposing viewpoints, making one of them an extremist, and then making a horror story out of it. I watched the movie with a return missionary and he found that they portrayed the missionaries with dignity and strength.
@@rhettaccardo8322Mormons aren't Hebrews : you're all gentiles.
Could've been made any any religious sect/cult. Why so thin skinned?
Jeff is so wrong when he says the hero is the psychopath. This is so dumb how they are discussing it without having watched it. They need at least one person in the convo who has watched it, or they don't have much to discuss.
Yeah I have pretty much seen the worst takes on this movie and every single one is a member who didn’t see it. How can you criticize a thing without even experiencing it or at least engaging in the topic. This movie was not anti Mormon and the only thing it’s doing is making Mormons look even more ridiculous by exposing them to be fake pearl clutchers.
@elijiahburgess5506 Exactly. I don't understand when people in my church will condemn this movie without seeing it when in the past the same people would have called out people's hypocrisy for condemning the Book of Mormon when they haven't read it either. Granted, not everyone in the Church is like this though. In my experience, it has only been a handful
@@elijiahburgess5506exactly. He says “I’m not gonna watch it.” Ok don’t make a f***ing video about it then lol so dumb
@@yasaf934good point.
As a Catholic I can empathize with you about gross misrepresentation. After hearing spoilers of the movie, I definitely won't see it. Hollywood clearly hates religion.
Yes, Catholics have been hit on even bigger screens. I have a lot of family who are Catholic and served my mission in a VERY Catholic country. It makes me sad when any religious group or people bash any other group.
Heretic is a strange one. The bad guy is clearly bad. But he's also pretty clearly the person who most closely aligns with the writer's and actors views on the topic. The movie seemed more interested in delivering a feature-length version of a 3-minute long atheist tiktok video than delving into the paradox the story set up. That is: how can stories made up to exert control and power create better people than the truth?
Well said. I think my problem with Jacob and Jeff’s criticism is that I think the movie is self-aware of the hypocrisy because they made the guy who aligns with their views to be a sociopath. My main problem with the movie is the overall lazy writing. Weird to make it rated R but then present middle school arguments
Have you actually researched their world views? Many agnostics leaning on the side of a higher power, including versions of Christianity, have realized the plot potential of extremists on the side of nihilism. For all you know the authors do beleive there is some sort of higher power, but they are willing to look at religious coincidences to give a character, they don't necessarily agree with, his supporting evidence for his views. Don't assume; research or assume a lack of your own knowledge...
I came across the portrayal of an Anglican priest in a series where the priest is forgiving, helps out the protagonist in a time of crisis, does not tell him what to think but guides him to think on difficult questions, and doesn't ask for anything in return.
I was so used to media trashing any religious figure, that I kept waiting for the shoe to drop. Alright, when do we find out that he's the bad guy? Because it would so naive to believe that *anyone* would *actually* devote their time to just trying to make other peoples lives better.
I mean, we trust companies, and politicians, and news outlets, but trusting someone who *doesn't* have a monetary conflict of interest? A bridge too far.
I relate to your story, our entertainment has conditioned us to expect the worst.
The more I hear from Pastor Jeff the more I like him. Hello Pastor 🤚
16:55 Jacob...did you even see this movie...?
I love both of you so much! Thank you for this discussion.
I appreciate you both Jacob and Jeff. I love Jesus Christ and am so grateful for his gospel. It’s always been strange to me how people try to tear down faith in Him. But It has always been that way, even when prophets testified of him before his first coming.
The sister missionaries in the movie are very powerful, and kind, and hold their own. I was pleased
Excalty.. also one way to read to the film is that Grants false beielfs leads to his downfall. He falsely assumed Sister Paxton wouldn’t reoquize a birth control implant .. anyone who says these are caricatures hasn’t seen the film
“OUR REACTION” the thumbnail says, but one of you didn’t see it? And the other one clearly didn’t understand it.
This video is a joke. They look like straight clowns. Haven’t even seen the movie. This is just them parroting all their other videos with the movie review as clickbait.
Wait, Jeff is giving a review of a movie he hasn't seen?
😆 you didn’t even watch
@@carlavegas887 their video? I watched every painful minute of this “review” of a movie that neither Jeff or Jacob saw. 😒
As someone who’s never been Mormon & watches Mormon content, although I watch the faithful stuff, I have of course watched anti stuff too, I originally started to learn. Very quickly though I realized, I wouldn’t really fit in with the “anti ppl” & yes I agree 100% that they love it because it confirms their priors. They want to hear that this “white patriarchal religion” is bad, bottom line. I’m a person on the right & i do believe in God, so I had a really hard time listening to anti stuff. Even if I disagree with points you make, I give you or whoever the benefit of the doubt. The anti ppl are just like “Jacob is evil & dumb” & again it confirms their priors because you’re a white religious conservative male.
@@freyast2213 Jacob is dumb his and to the problem of evil is to clean God is powerless to stop evil
@@BryceCarmony Pretty sure Jacob would probably say God _chooses_ to allow evil, because to stop evil would be to violate our moral agency.
@MusicBlik nope in an interview he said God cannot prevent all evil. Take it up with him it's his insane position
actually the very existence of good creates its own opposite. there cannot be good without the potential for evil.
@cocadean that's Dualism not Christianity. Mormons are funny because it's more a random mixture of random heresies
The existence of a good God doesn't mean there's an evil God opposing him
I don’t subscribe to ex Mormons who talk trash about the church on UA-cam to make money and attract the audience. I left Jehovah’s Witnesses because I couldn’t handle the hectic church schedules and I love my work too much. So I left the church quietly and didn’t talk bad about the church. No church has the completely accurate knowledge but God looks at our heart condition. God can tell whether we truly love Him. In due time, I will find my home church after I left a Lutheran church a few years ago due to unpleasant and hostile political environment.
Great conversation. Jeff is awesome. Hopefully as many people go to watch that movie will also watch this.
11:07 yes! Absolutely yes. That is one person you should go to! Not the only person but yes. To frame this another way…
A disgruntled employee can give you an unfiltered view of the company. Current employees might be reluctant to speak openly if they want to keep their jobs, but someone who’s no longer invested can reveal issues that insiders are hesitant to share. Talking to them can help you uncover potential red flags that might otherwise go unnoticed.
You are absolutely correct! ...Unless said former employee quit because they were bitter and bad at their job and felt like they "never got noticed for their hard work" even though they failed every performance review.
They exist, I've worked with many
I haven’t seen Heretic but I did see Conclave about the selection process of a new Pope. The premise was that there is corruption at the highest levels of the Catholic church. I'm not Catholic and have no opinion about the choosing of a Pope. I perceive the actual current Pope, whom LDS President Nelson met with, is a God-focused person. I went to see the movie because I like a couple of actors in it and I usually see everything they're in. I took the movie as a fictional account. After the movie I came across a statement from the Catholic Church, denouncing the movie. I realize now that the danger of negatively fictionalizing real events and people associated with any specific religions, can be disrespectful and misinformative and perpetuates negativity and exploitation towards those religions.
In defence of Mormon Stories never-Mo audience: many viewers grew up in other high-demand religions and find parallels and some comfort feeling they're not alone.
Thanks for sharing this, Jeff and Jacob 😊
I'm a fan of both of you guys, and it was cool to see both of you in a video, especially so given that you were both on the same page pretty much throughout it.
I've now watched what I think are all of the Latter-day Saint (and 1 evangelical Christian ) reviews of this movie so have a pretty good idea of what it's about. I have no intention whatsoever of watching it, but it's nice to hear these opinions on it. Even if it didn't have Latter-day Saint missionaries misrepresented, and/or as main characters, I still wouldn't have wanted to watch it, as this type of horror movie has never appealed to me, nor do the vast majority of horror movies, for similar reasons.
The only 2 Halloween themed movies that I like are pretty much just these 2 (unless there are other old ones that I cannot think of right now) :
1) The Others (2001)
2) Ernest Scared Stupid (1991)
I don’t see how the LDS church was misrepresented here
@@coalhouse1981 - The sister missionaries were not portrayed accurately at all, along with the points that Jacob brought up in this regard.
I will say it’s interesting that the atheist, although he thinks he knows everything, is the psychopath murderer. Even though I hate the portrayal toward the Church and faith, I think there is also a message in how strict atheism is destructive.
I'm only interested in movies that are about doing/telling something good. If they don't inspire me to be better, their not worth watching.
I won't be watching this movie because I can't stand "Saw" type movies. Remember that the adversary does not go after people he already has in his pocket, so The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other Christians will be "gone after" to discredit, misrepresent, and destroy.
This is not a saw type movie 😂 most of the movie is just dialogue. It’s a psychological thriller that makes you think about religion. Don’t be dramatic
I'm a believing Latter-day Saint and I have my face in my hands this whole video so far. This movie is a horror/thriller with Latter-day Saints as the protagonists. It is not a hit piece on Latter-day Saints or religion. The person who espouses anti-religion rhetoric in the movie is the villain--a literal psycho killer. Latter-day Saints fully rebut him, uncover his plot, and show out faith the entire film. Its frustrating to hear people go on about this movie who haven't taken the time to watch it and judge it on its own merits--this film was clearly trying to accurately and positively represent the LDS protagonists; it was not trying to be an advertisement for the church.
Thank you! Jacob and Jeff got so much wrong, especially saying the representations were not accurate. Maybe the only correct part was his critisism of the birth control representation, and that is only because the current stance is fine with it when in the past it was looked down on and shamed.
I agree. That's how I took it. We have so many religions represented in all types of movie genre and the LDS community is far underrepresented in them, so I think it's fine, just don't support gross errors on points of Doctrine
Based on the limited bits I've seen/heard, it does seem like the film is more an eximination of faith and the choice we make to have it. From what I can tell, faith/belief, in the end are the victors of the film, but i could be way wrong on that. But even if it props faith up, I'm not too interested in seeing it because the horror genre isn't usually my thing.
We should take a win where we can because our films just suck really bad due to budget and popular media largely hates us for our views. If we go out crying at everyone who tries to put our faith in popular media because we are pearl clutching Christian’s then no one will take us seriously. And you know what? I actually liked under the banner of heaven and I baptized someone due to it. When antagonists to our faith make better church history films than us then we really have a problem. I think this is time for self reflection.
@byucatch22 Yes, an examination of faith or eligious beliefs is a good way to put it. It's thought-provoking, and most people have had the same questions or similar ones. I was surprised how much it went from a thiller to a horror movie but i still enjoyed it even though horror isn’t my thing usually.
As a heretic. I will not be watching this movie.
I’m only here for the legion of anti-Mormon trolls who rush to EVERY LDS UA-cam channel to share their positivity, happiness and love everytime ANY LDS media figure posts online
Thank you, I can feel the happiness you spread with your repeated posts
Side note
Is there such a thing as MDS?
“Mormon derangement Syndrome”
Answer: yes there is such thing. Some of these people act like psychos.
Mormon comments on Christian channels are just as anti as you think we are!!!
Mormons do the same on Christian channels.
😂 omg I love this.
Likewise ;-)
Yes!!! Just saw The best Christmas pageant.. as a little girl I loved the book.. The Movie was excellent!!♥️
I’m a Latter-day Saint who saw heretic and actually loved it. Was it a perfect representation of who we are or what we believe? No, but I thought it was one of the best I’ve seen in Hollywood (which honestly isn’t saying much). The missionary characters were given lots of depth and strength and the villain is obviously portrayed as being insane and crazy and evil. It encourages the audience to root for the missionaries, and to think about why you believe the things you believe. I wasn’t offended in any way, but rather enjoyed the movie.
What I find so off-base with the “useful or comforting fiction” view of Christianity or of faith. Is that in my experience and most Christians, even other religionists, faith and religion for sure brings comfort and guidance to big questions but creates immense existential and moral duties and judgments that I now have to contend with.
Mollywood needs to come back so we can get some actual substantial discourse in the movies. I’m not convinced the writers or actors could even put themselves in the shoes of missionaries.
Maybe I’d like the story. But “magic underwear” is such a cartoonishly large red flag that it renders the rest of the film irrelevant. How could you make such a massive beginner’s mistake?
Pastor Jeff, this has been happening for SOOOOO long! You’re only just now becoming aware of it. But I promise you, it’s been a thing for a long time. All that to say, I’m glad you’re seeing it. I have complained on occasion about these types of things to non-LDS friends, and they usually shoot back with something like “oh, that happens to every religion”.
To be fair, you belong to a religion started by a convicted conman who told people he could find buried treasure with a stone and diving rod, who cheated on his wife with his maid, Fanny Algar, long before he got revelation of polygamy, you belong to a religion that controls your underwear, you belong to a religion containing the book of Abraham--a text that has been proven false. You belong to a religion that teaches Native Americans came from Jerusalem--when it's been proven their blood is Asiatic. On the whole, you're religion is truly one that should be the butt of the jokes--just like Scientology.
I'd like to have you on to discuss a movie you haven't seen.
Take a deep breath @BryceCarmony, just breathe man
Seriously though. Dude has a vendetta, I don’t want to see an angry man spam the comment section with the same comment over and over
If a church’s most church members are good people making the city and society safe, that church is doing something right.
Man who consistently preaches against the Church says that Hollywood made a gross representation of the LDS paradigm.
Pastor Jeff misses. We weren't created to worship God, if that were true God would be a narcissistic weirdo. We are God's children. He loves us. He wants us to be with Him. He sent His Only Begotten Son to save us and bring us back. God loves us, He loved us first. This Protestant idea of being created to worship God is so nonsensical. We are God's offspring (Acts 17:29; genos). He is our Father. What Father wouldn't want their children with Them?
No need to hate on pastor Jeff just because he has theological differences from us. Too many people do that to us.
Pastor Jeff seems very respectable and Christlike and we should emulate those aspects of his character even if we disagree doctrinally
@HurleyDoesGames I'm simply disagreeingv with him.
Point out where I'm hating on anyone.
@JaysonCarmona I agree with the above statement. You are coming across hateful. Please stop.
I don’t think your coming of hateful. But I would like to add to the conversation.
Do you think we will ever outgrow worshipping God? Personally I don’t think so, in fact as we grow more like Him, the greater our worship of Him will be. We were created to worship the higher, as Pastor Jeff stated, and He is the Highest. That’s not to say I disagree with Jeff as to how one does worship. That is where your statement that He wants us to come to Him, as Jesus invited us to do, and be more like Him until the perfect day comes in. (I’m like Tevia from Fiddler on the roof: he is right, and you are also right)😂😂
@@JaysonCarmona Mormons have a blind spot of their hate towards Evangelicals.
Im religious but get me on some cult documentaries and I can watch for hours about Scientology, flds, or camp davidian stuff. So i think its not just confirmation bias that causes people to watch. Unless I'm secretly against religion somehow.
I heard about a documentary about evangelicals called Jesus Camp. I heard it makes them look abusive and insane. I won't see it. I'll stick to my own experience.
I watched Jesus Camp. It was very disturbing.
What do Protestants believe that Christ overcame when he was resurrected if they don’t believe resurrection involves the reunion of spirit and body? What do they think happened when others were resurrected after Jesus was resurrected?
@@Doccraniowe receive a Glorified body of fresh and bone : it's NOT human anymore and why your HF cannot be a literal parent of you.
How does H Mother play a roll in being a parent???
When did she receive her body???
I thank our HEAVENLY PARENT'S, I'm a member of, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS.
Oh yeah, you’re thankful for review of a movie that two men didn’t even see and everything. They said didn’t even match up with what happened in the movie.
Yeah, I’ll always go to movie reviews by people who haven’t seen the actual movie.
Oy vey !!!
I don’t agree with you guys about this. What you are saying reminds me of a bit Kumail Nanjiani did about Freddy Kruger choosing between attacking a white girl and a black girl, and he says something about “dark meat,” and everyone in the theater groans because they can implicitly go along with the sociopathic murders, but racism? Intolerable. It’s just a horror movie. Nobody cares about accurate religious representation in this context.
The difference is a bad guy isn’t just making fun of us but the entire movie is lying about who we are. It’s like if the black girl was ignorant, criminal, watermelon loving racist stereotype.
Fantastic video! Thanks!
The foundation of Christianity is in Ephesians 2:19-20, the foundation of Apostles and Prophets and Jesus Christ is the Chief Corner Stone, all Christians built-up on the rock of Jesus Christ, Amene
wait, he hasn't seen it?
it drives away the spirit
I'm a never-mo who listens to podcasts of both TBMs and ex-Mos because I like people who take the subject of religion seriously. Jeff & Jacob missed the mark on Heretic. The sister missionaries are the heroes and the anti-religion zealot is clearly a villain (not an "antihero")! Any member of any faith that can't enjoy a movie solely based on a less than 100% accurate portrayal their religion or its members needs to develop a thicker skin. I'm Roman Catholic and have rarely seen an accurate portrayal of my faith or its members. Nor are we depicted in a sympathetic light. Movies tell stories. They are not documentaries. LDS members should note that their religion in Heretic was chosen to represent all faiths against an antitheist lunatic. That's quite a level of acceptance IMO.
A movie can make a stamp in memory.
The evangelical hasn’t even seen the movie!? Wtf is he doing criticizing it? What a joke. Literally projecting what he thinks it is onto it. This is not an anti Mormon movie.
I haven't seen it but I know a few details: it seems like it would make changes to sending out young woman without support during the evening hours after dark.
This is a real probability of what could happen to them.
Where did the makers of this movie get their information?
Since Jacob is always virtue signaling then I will ask him why he's watching r rated movies
Cause he’s a hypocrite
@dr33776 well said
How do have so much to say without actually watching the movie?
A more honest review from people that saw the movie is at Mormon Book Reviews
This movie might help keep Mormon girls stay safe: a lone missionary girl came to my door once and I was shocked that she didn't have a partner even though it was midday, but she was alone at the door.
And Roseville ca isn't a bad area but still bad things can happen even there.
To worship is innately built in us.
Haven't followed up on pastor Jeff lately. Is he already a member?
The movie villain feels reminiscent of the joker in The Dark Knight or Joker movies. Disenfranchised people said that the Joker went too far, but made some good points and he became an anti hero and symbol of worship. The same will likely happen with Mr. Reed from Heretic, for the anti religious.
No sane person would ever consider worshiping Mr Reed. How did people worship the Joker by the way?
@ You’re right. It’s a bad comparison. “Worship” is a charged word I used hyperbolicly. I’m just remembering the teens around me at the time that loved Joker’s burn it all down message.
I’m simply troubled by the thought of anti religious people defending Mr. Reeds arguments, if not his methods. I’ve already heard it in some online reviews of the movie. But some of his arguments have merit, so that’s also probably an overreaction on my part. 😮💨
@@tylerthorstrom4100there is nothing positive or likable about Me Reed, however charming Hugh Grant may be. This isn’t a Tyler Durden thing
I enjoyed this movie, even with the inaccuracies that were made. It does continue to show the harm caused by the church's official narrative about Joseph Smith being a pedophile instead of admitting that polygamy was instigated by Brigham, and Joseph was a moral, virtuous man who spoke out vehemently against polygamy, even excommunicating those involved in that abomination when it came to his attendion. As long as they continue to press forward with the lies, people are going to wrongly believe that Joseph was an immoral man. They are in a bit of a conundrum, sure, because for their authority claims they NEED to pin polygamy on Joseph. If they told the truth, it would open a can of worms about Brigham.
Also, the Book of Mormon predates most of the NT, and much of the OT, so Grant's character got that part wrong. Not too surprising, since many people arent interested in actually digging in and studying the issue precisely because of the "official narrative" that makes the founder such a scoundrel. Every people will speak ill of him, he was told. Including those who belong to churches that claim him as their founder. Very sad.
The number of lds commentors who saw the movie and were fine with it is staggering.
This episode is brainrot. Thank you for review a bunch of media about mormons that you " haven't and won't ever watch". I really appreciate your "informed opinion".😅
I haven't seen this movie and probably won't but from my experience on my mission. If anyine just threaten the Sisters let alone actually hurt them there would have been blood but I was missionary during covid and we had a lot of weird stuff happened.
John d has such a limited knowledge of everything LDS! He’s blasting his ignorance.
Have ANY of you people actually seen the film? Based on all these ridiculous closed minded and sheepy comments I’m gonna say no. You are exactly what the movie is about. This couldn’t be more ironic. Yall are hilarious!
I eye roll any time I read a story or watch a movie & a character is shown to be "religious/some flavor of Christian". 9 out of 10 times that character will made into a bad guy or a hypocrite. At best, usually a bit naive & "uncool".
I was excited to see you both discuss this movie. But you do a disservice to the conversation by not having watched it. It’s clear that you missed a lot of nuance and depth because the facts are all secondhand.
INVITATION
I know that there are righteous beings in every faith. I do believe the righteous will be saved, but not only saved but will hear more of Gods word and accept it. I’m excited to say that God has sent more of His word. This is the most important invitation you will receive in your life. Please read the Book of Mormon it will change your life and eternity for the good. Don’t leave this life without saying that you’ve at least read this book that millions claim to be further light and knowledge from our loving Father in Heaven. It’s a record of an ancient people who dwelt in the Americas 1500+ years ago. The gospel of Jesus Christ of latter day saints is the only true church upon the earth. I’ve studied the gospel of Jesus Christ for 57yrs, read the Book of Mormon 50+ times and through the manifestation of the Holy Spirit to my spirit I know it to be true and this church to be the only true church upon the earth, God being my witness can strike me down if I am wrong. Why further sacred scriptures? It’s another testament of Jesus Christ. Reference to Him is mentioned in this record 3925 times, for good reason. So we can learn from those who lived by rules and those who didn’t. Helps us have a greater appreciation for our creator who we constantly need. We are all dependent on His grace and mercy to live, learn and function.
This revealed sacred record teaches us more than just salvation, to live forever. Immortality connotes life without end. Salvation is immortality. I also believe most people who have lived on the earth will receive at least a measure of salvation.
Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life_exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. This is the life in Heaven God desires for each and everyone of His children. Eternal life is Gods greatest gift.
I invite you to do a personal search of the Book of Mormon. This book will separate the wheat from the tares. Are you going to be among the number willing to seek for more of Gods light and knowledge? Don’t do it to seek for another faith, just do it to find out for yourself if God truly did indeed send more then what’s contained in the Bible. Keep reading your Bible but don’t let satan separate you from more light and knowledge sent from God. Does it make sense that God sends us to earth, encourages us to get married and procreate for it to end when mortality ends? God said to His apostles, “whatsoever Thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.” The glad tidings of great joy delivered to the shepherds in the fields was that a special baby was born which makes possible for all to have your wives and family into the eternities through the life, blood and mission of our loving Savior Jesus Christ.
Quoting our current Prophet and President,
“The Book of Mormon is filled with truth. If you read it daily, you will have more truth and power in your life. It teaches us about the premortal world and the purpose of life. It gives more understanding about the Atonement of Jesus Christ than any other book of scripture and teaches us about the reality of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the holy priesthood. Studying daily from its pages will affect your life in a way no other book can.”
“If you will feast on the words of Christ found throughout the Book of Mormon, I promise that you will have greater power to resist temptation,increased ability to receive revelation,and a greater capacity to deal with the challenges of life.”-President Russel M. Nelson

26:18 Jacob you misrepresent what John said. He specifically referred to why Mormonism worked so well for him…. You arguing a strawman.
I appreciate where both of you are coming from, but it was painfully obviously that neither of you had seen the movie in question.
What’s the name of the Christmas movie?
It's called "The Best Christmas Pageant Ever". We saw a trailer for it last month when we saw "6 Days in August", which was also a very good movie. We will definitely see this Christmas one also.
@ thanks
It's a great movie!
Comparing religion to monopoly was when i turned off the TV!!!! Typical reddit comment lol
It was a great movie!
If only you were as passionate about your own church misrepresenting itself (and its history) as you are concern about outsiders.
You just described the Bible..lol
I don't know why i found that so funny..
What is a gross misrepresentation of the LDS Faith? What specifically was so incredibly wrong that you make that statement?
You need to see the movie before you can intelligently comment
Seriously, two men who have not watched the movie doing a review on it and trying to ban it is ridiculous.
This movie is anything but anti-Jesus.
I’m a true and devoted follower of Jesus Christ and this movie did not bother me whatsoever. In fact, Christians everywhere should see this movie and so latter-day Saints.
If this movie did anything for latter-day Saints, it made the women look strong and capable; something the LDS church can’t even do.
If anything this movie would help you grow closer to God without all the fluff .
I’m sorry but being a pastor sucking up to the LDS church makes me question whether or not he truly is a believer in Jesus Christ!
Lastly, if it can do anything, it should have the LDS church teaching their missionaries self-defense. Something they should’ve done a long time ago, especially in a world is dangerous as ours.
You should watch the movie before commenting on it. A 44 minute video about a movie u didn't see 🤯
I thought the movie was entertaining and the guy who had some kind of dumb but edgy things to say was a total psychopath so I'm not entirely sure what the message was supposed to be. (Spoiler) In the end prayer was effective and the afterlife was all but confirmed. Definitely got nixed signals but i was on the edge of my seat.
Hey,who can forget the 1974 murders and dismembering of two missionaries in Texas
30:10 and to this point isn’t it the Bible that teaches us that Jesus brings justice to the world? The Bible is where we read that the poor and humble will be exalted and the proud and mighty will be abased. There is no better paradigm to make sense of the injustice and inequality that exists in this world than to know that because Jesus overcame the world, even the most humble and abased person in this life can and will be exalted.
Jeff and Jacob both misrepresented non-believers by saying they all place their faith in something like idols. I guess they don't realize faith is belief without evidence? They are using the word faith to mean trust or values, which isn't the same thing as believing in false things.
According to atheism, what is “trust” and what is a “value”? Where do those things come from, and what makes them “good”?
According to atheism, our very existence is an accident, so that makes everything arbitrary.
So, Jacob is correct. Even if you’re an atheist you put your faith in something, and according to atheism, that something is literally nothing.
According to Athiesm? Since when was Athiesm ever considered a belief system? You are doing the same thing by strawmanning the "athiest" position. Every person defines their values differently whether you believe in Jesus, Mohammad, Zues, or none of them. Values come from society and trust comes from experience. Do you disagree with Hebrews 11 that faith is belief without evidence? How does it make sense that an athiest, or non Christian has belief without evidence in their job, or whatever they find important? You didn't explain how Jacob or jeff are correct unless you don't believe Hebrews defines faith correctly.
@@jonny6man - Agnosticism is saying, "I don't know." Atheism is saying, "I know, and there's NOT". Atheism makes the claim that there is NOT a God.
And if there's not a God, then what is there? What are we? What are we doing here?
Is it all arbitrary? If it's all arbitrary, then this is all meaningless. And if it's all meaningless, then what in the world is anyone even talking about when they say that things like racism is wrong?
Values come from society? Yikes. That means values can change. And if values can change, then why not change them now?
For example, If society now says that school shootings are bad and evil, then at some point society can say they're cool, right? So, if they can be cool later, why can't they be cool now? See how that works?
If all we are is a bunch of meat sacks floating in space, then how can we trust that? What is there to even trust? The brain named itself. If all we are is electrical impulses in a meat chunk, how can we trust that? How can we trust that we even know anything?
So yes, when I say "According to Atheism..." there's an implication there. See, atheists may not believe in God, but they believe in SOMETHING. They put their trust and values in SOMETHING. Atheists still live and act in this world and make choices based upon some kind of hierarchical value structure. The problem is, they have no coherent narrative as to where that structure came from. And if it only just comes from ourselves, then it's meaningless. Us being our own authority is scary.
@@harmonillustration Many atheist take an agnostic position, acknowledging uncertainty about the existence of gods rather than making absolute claims.
The idea that without a god, life is meaningless, is a philosophical leap. Many atheists find profound meaning in life through family, art, science, and human connection. As an atheist I confidently say racism is wrong because it goes against my values. Saying racism is wrong is just how society has determined it. Just like in Ancient Israel times and early American history, slavery was normal and not condemned as wrong except under certain conditions.
Values and morality evolve from our capacity for reason, empathy, and our understanding of collective well-being. Saying that changing values could lead to acceptance of harmful behaviors ignores the role of reason and empathy in shaping moral norms.
Once again you are claiming Atheist believe in something, but then you agree with me and state that they put their trust and values in something. You can have trust and value something as an atheist without having to believe false truth narratives. This doesn't mean they place "faith" into things like their jobs, family, fun things.
You really sound like you are in a bad place if using evidence eventually convinces you God isn't directing your life and that your life would then be meaningless. That's really sad that being your own authority is so scary to you. Therapy can hopefully help you.
@@jonny6man - "You really sound like you are in a bad place"
So, either you've completely misunderstood what I was saying, or I'm a terrible communicator. haha.
I was trying to argue like Jacob does in this episode: ua-cam.com/video/UFIP_WdTIlI/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
The public has misconception about birth control because there WAS a policy against it in handbook & admonitions by prophets for the large majority of the religion’s existence until it was quietly updated in what the 2020 handbook? Why not do an episode detailing this 180 change the prophets made so that the public is more aware this is ok now? But don’t erase the sacrifice & obedience my parents had to this rule & told me about many times as child #10. Thank you. Just like you wouldn’t erase the sacrifice of my sister wife ancestors who followed polygamy. I’d prefer the topic was treated like polygamy. Aknowledge it WAS a policy & honor those that were obedient & then explain when & how & why the policy changed. Thank you.
Agreed. It sounds like the movie's presentation is distorted, but so is Jacob's brief / oversimplified claim that this is totally a private couple's decision in the LDS world.
@ agree but I think church could clear this up for those in public that still believe lds can’t use bc like catholic or others. Yes we can now use it although previously for majority of our existence our members could not.
@@tarabates7088 Birth control was a private couple's decision when my husband and I were married in the LDS world 37 years ago and it was a private matter when my parents were married over 60 years ago. Who else is getting involved where you live?
@@hrobinson9701 Spencer W. Kimball repeatedly taught young LDS folks to get married in their early twenties, as soon after men's mission as possible, and to "not delay" having children. This is why the birthrate among LDS was so much higher during the 70s and 80s than among the broader American population. You and your parents may have taken a different interpretation from this messaging, but many LDS people understood it as a commandment and a rather serious one. Both men and women made tremendous sacrifices to be obedient. I'll grant that the teachings / culture has changed, but to suggest that this never happened feels like blacklighting to me.
@@tarabates7088 There is a big difference between not delaying having children and not using birth control. There is also a difference between teachings from the prophet and general authorities and an implication that local bishops got involved in bedroom practices of their congregations. My husband and I asked once or twice about birth control as most people "knew" that was not allowed and we were told that when we had children, how many we had and whether or not to use birth control was a prayerful matter between us and the Lord, and no one else's business.
It’s obvious to even the most casual observer that this film could have told an effective story without cheap hits on LDS sister missionaries or the LDS religion. Millions of faithful members will be skipping it. I often wonder if film writers/directors are okay with alienating some of their potential audience and ticket buyers in order to push an agenda. Some even appear to harbor a grudge. Weak and off putting.
Faithful members shouldn’t even be watching R rated movies. They are very faithful if they go to the theater and watch it.
20:22 a video won’t do Jacob… they have been faking videos for years.
They didnt purposely go out and cast former church members for the roles of the sister missionaries using the "whistleblower mentality" like you mentioned, thats silly. They only learned about their past LDS affiliation after they already liked the 2 actresses. Maybe you could say that "God works in mysterious ways"
And just generally agree with other comments that its pretty wild to give thoughts and reviews of a movie you haven't seen. If you haven't seen the film then just dont make a video about it, seems pretty straightforward.
Hey Jacob, why you talking to this guy, he's a protestant who's just playing church.
Also Watch The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina It also gives A Bad Name from missionaries and the missrepresentations from the church the missionaries there got fake nametags Lmaooo
The divide between Protestants and lds are the invention of the false spirit of dead religions. The real divide is between us and God his ways and plans are so much higher and holier then out filthy rags . There is no room in his kingdom for deserving, self righteous saints , priesthood pride. The only mechanisms of our salvation is Jesus, and the work he does in his body, he decides who is on the path, “the one true church” is a compromise we made with devil to tithe out our lives instead of complete surrender. I’m guilty Lds sinner who seeks to be born again. He only asks for everything! In return all that he has.
It’s 100% control. Grew up Mormon. There are so many manipulative structures that either directly or indirectly manipulate member behavior.
Been here in the middle of Utah my whole life and have never been manipulated into anything. I left for 7 years and came back on my own. Not a single ounce of manipulation to be seen. I’ve talked about this with all of my friends and they agree.
@@NamesDeanyou mean fellow believers in your in group all agree that the group is good and others are wrong? You’re kidding. What are the odds?
Of course you are 100% correct, but get ready for a lot of gaslighting coming your way. If the Mormon church was a video game character with traits you could score, control would be “99”. Sadly, love would be “50”
@@grantbeck9228 even though we are the only church on the planet that preaches the gift of agency 😂 need I say more?
@@NamesDean the only church on the planet that believes in humans having agency? You sure about that? Or just ignorant in group reaction?
A movie review by two guys who didn't watch the movie?
Matt Whitman has also tried to reach out to you and youve acted shady towards him!!!!
I think Hello saints guy has a conflict of interest, is the Lds giving him money??
What are these 2 talking about? It's clear they haven't seen the film but just going on what others have said that also haven't seen the film. Pure nonsense!!
Oh Pastor Jeff.... I thought so much of you until you paired up with thoughtless taint and his clout shark ways.
15:14 and people who watch your show Jacob are only getting one side… hypocrite!
Is Jacob ok? Look at his face. The dark baggy eyes. Jacob you sleeping enough buddy? Going outdoors? Maybe find a way to manage your stress better.
A paradigm is a set of ideas, perspective or standard and originated, and is used, in academic, sience and the business worlds. I rarely hear it in other fields but when i do, it's usually because it is being used by a person who want to come across as more intelligent than they are, and you are. What is wrong with saying 'Mormon' beliefs, doctrines or teachings. My granny and young people will know what he is talking about. These pseudo intellects are so boring but fool the naive.