New Bikes - My Thoughts
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- With all the new bikes being launched I look at some of the features and claims from the brands.
On this channel we show marketing free, real information about the bikes that you ride.
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The prices are simply breathtaking. In no way can they justify them when, for the same price, I can buy a brand new Honda motorcycle, which has unimaginably more engineering and QC than any so-called frameset manufacturers. And that motorcycle has an engine, multilink dual suspension, cooling systems, disc brakes with ABS, engine computers, etc with a warranty that's often comparable.
And. Every single of the 80 or so bearings are pressfit and work flawlessly.
Profiteering is not new. I also think the economies of scale and using a lower end motorcycle model for the comparison could account for the similar cost of manufacturing.
Buy used bikes, a 1 year old giant tcr can be found at 50% less...
I look for items that are New and 50% off, may be two years old but more reasonable.
Good comparison, absolutely makes no sense when you look at it this way. Won't stop try hards from buying these bikes at RRP though. Me, I will just wait a few years when they are 70% off on FB Marketplace. Let some other idiot pay the depreciation.
"Does that mean their earlier bikes were compromised?" I am laughing so hard!
Comes from the food industry. "Now more flavour!!" So you know that you´ve been eating tasteless garbage in the past... Compare to bikes, especially aerobikes.. Rgr
I know this was meant to make us laugh ... and it did! But just because something is no compromise now doesn’t automatically mean that there was previously a compromise.
One of the hilarious claims of the new Tarmac is that this bike is a 'one bike fits all'. It is supposed to climb as well as any previous Tarmac but have NEARLY all the aero of the Venge, hence no more Venge. Hang on, though. In a sprint race where you could win by the depth of a tyre and the Venge is claimed to be the difference between winning and losing, is Specialized now saying that you might not win a sprint race on the new Tarmac? The real reason for removal of the Venge is marketing. Specialized are cognisant of the new world. They know that all of the R&D, tooling, marketing costs (advertising etc.) for a specific product line is not economically sustainable is an unpredictable world. So what does any company do in that situation? Rationalise your product line, reduce costs and market the hell out of your remaining products. I predict that many other manufactures will adopt the same approach or risk going under. Finally, what is also hilarious is how the UA-cam fraternity will plug the claims of these manufacturers for a bit of product placement revenue. Either they are incredibly stupid or just plain cynical. Thank you for the video, something like this was needed.
The dealers will loooove this. One model to keep in stock. One model to learn about. Customers will loooooove this. One model to choose from. Rgr
@@borano2031 Or no model if you are not rich enough to be able to buy a SL7
Also they have to keep up with the gravel trend which takes room space. I went to a S shop and thought it was fun the Diverge was pricier than the already crazy expensive epic while not having suspensions. Same for SL7 tho.
Of course a "one model fits all purposes" is the ideal selling point for the manufacturer and who cares if he charges a bit more. USD 15.000 for the S-Works is a bargain. Who would not reject this offer?
It's like the F-35 Fighter Jet, a "one model fits all purposes" and it was sold successfully all over the world at prices beyond reasonability. It worked.
@@TheAntoine191 It's the Apple model philosophie. When Steve Jobs announced that the new Mac Air got rid of all USB ports to reduce the weight he also said he would reduce the weight of his customer's wallets... . The audience went crazy and cheered up!
Great information. It is so reassuring to listen to you when it counts. GCN, Bike Radar, Cycling Weekly etc., seem to be puppets for all that is glamorous about new bikes. But, when it comes down to the average rider who loves bikes but has to sacrifice to buy his dream bike, you always come through.
They're all paid shills. Just use them for news but ignore any claims about the marketing bs from bike makers.
Thats all the brittish cycling media - they all suck, GCN started wel but since the Discovery Channel takeover it sucks. In the english those worth reading/watching are Bicyling Magazine, Velonows and especially the new kid on the block Cylingtips
@@mortenreippuertknudsen3576 nope, still paid shills
@@mortenreippuertknudsen3576 Spot on. I hadn't realised Discovery had taken it over, Still got some great presenters but the majority of it now is product placement.
Solid gold insight:
“Now the old threaded bottom bracket... in my opinion, a well manufactured press fit is far superior. ...you have to remember that the threaded cup that you are threading into your frame has got the bearing pressed into it so why are you replicating that? The only reason you are replicating that is because you are admitting that you can’t make that (press fit) interface to the required accuracy and repeatability. By going back to a threaded bottom bracket, you are basically saying that we don’t have the ability to manufacture this part at this accuracy and repeatability and still maximize our profit... there is no technical reason why it is better.”
I think Hambini would agree.
Yeah but at least they are doing something about it instead of churning out the same shitey press fit
The reason why they cannot manufacture them accurately and repeatedly is because the manufacturer has farmed out their manufacturing to sweatshops in China or Taiwan using unskilled labour being paid low wages. The profit margins for these bikes are huge, if they were to be made with accuracy consistently, either the manufacturer is prepared to cut his profits or the consumer pays more. It is cheaper to make threaded BB and still charge like a wounded bull.
@@brettsta72 but they're still charging $5000 for the frame...
Bicycles don’t need to be precision manufactured. Profit margin is also effected by manufacturing throughput. Times too have changed with respect to extent of skills or craft expected of the workforce. The days of pride in workmanship required to attain and practice such skills may have passed.
Aside from the obvious handling/fit/feel a frame brings to the party, the groupset and other touch-points are just as important. All of these 2021 bikes equipped with DuraAce R9100 are running a groupset from 2016. That's been around a LONG time. How hasn't using an 'aged' groupset reduced costs? Imagine buying an iPhone from 2016..... ;) At least if Shimano update their road group soon it'll give the frame companies something to differentiate their 2022 models with.
Maybe Shimano are clearing out their stocks of 11speed groupset, having the new 12speed in the pipeline for delivery? Next year, you must rebuild your $11,000, 11speed bike with the spanking new 12speed groupset, mustn´t you?? It´s only money... Rgr
@@borano2031 That is typical of almost every item from tires to components. There are great sales right before the new ones come out. Problem now is the shortage of everything because of Covid 19 shutting manufacturing down for so long.
I’ve been waiting for new Shimano groupset for 2 years lol. But I do have to say that their current 11 speed are excellent.
@@edwinf9999 I mean they sell 11speed DA as BTB, not to ordinary customers. We haven´t seen a sellout through dealers, have we?? When the warehouse is empty, tadaa, 12speed DA. Plus a new cassette body design, rendering your old wheels useless, again, if your unlucky... Rgr
@@borano2031 i wonder if a 12 will mean a universal hub upgrade... that will be like a make work project for the entire industry
Too many weekend warriors with big egos to match their disposable income have taken up cycling as a leisure activity. I used to think the most irrational purchase most people make was on a car. I've changed my mind!
lot of people buy the latest smart phone every year which just about works out to be roughly the same cost as buying the latest generation of your frrame as they come out (~$1000/year)
As an engineer and recent arrival to the "riding a bike for exercise" scene I really enjoyed Raoul's explanation of what is going in the new bikes industry.
Obviously a man that knows his area of expertise extremely well and can deliver an honest and accurate point of view whilst maintaining a high level of diplomacy.
Subscribed, and I'll be back to enjoy more of his videos.
When a bike costs the same as a deposit for house something is really wrong with the world
Not sure what your idea of a deposit for a house is, but where I live it's about the same as a rather respectable brand new car.
I really hate this trend. Bike companies focus on $10k plus bikes. I was at an LBS recently and they had a Specialized whatever it was (beautiful looking bike in all red) for $2200, which is surprisingly low for a specialized but it had $200 Claris (8 speed) groupset on it. Not to mention that I’m sure the seatpost, stem, bars, etc are all pot metal garbage and the whole bike probably weighed more 20 pounds.
Just b rich 4head
If the bike is going to cost that much , it better come with a ride in the tour de France and champagne 😁
@@PersonaN007Grata Look at the brand new 2021 Specialized Epic. Lots of marketing blahblah and hype for a USD 4300.00 bicycle and on closer inspection you find Shimano Alivio and Deore parts. That's beyond pathetic. And the frames usually are in the USD 300.00 price range from Chinese manufacturers, that's before stickers like Specialized, Pinarello etc. multiply its value by 10 to 15. Insane!
I’ve been riding for nearly 40 years and I hate this current age of manufacturers, they just make any rubbish that sounds good to the average layperson, never bothering to make a better ‘mouse trap’, I’m looking at you Specialized! Also, having worked as a bike mechanic, customers would be horrified if they saw what the inside of the $15k bike looked like.
All business need profits to survive. They need profits to stay open and to employ people. So making something too good, that does not wear out, or needs to be replaced in a relatively short time is bad for business. And with more business having share holders to satisfy, profit is more important than quality. This is their justification, be it right or wrong.
Well, if you go through the specs of the brand new Epic 2021 @ USD 4300.00 then you will find Alivio and Deore parts. The wheel hubs! No SLX, no XT... Alivio!
And on other expensive bikes they use the SRAM SX parts which they probably take from cheap Walmart bikes.
Thank you for your video and industry opinion. Your videos are infinitely more informative than the plethora of product placements on UA-cam.
'You can buy a lot of Kool-Aid for that money' - and there's your answer
It obviously doesn't cost anything like 2k more to make the s works frame. They just have two options to extract more money from those who want the s works logo and can afford it.
@@andrewcockburn7484 you gotta believe margins overall are in the 70% range, so $1200 USD for the bike constructed, then there's cost of sales (marketing - race team sponsorship (big number but peanuts when your dealing with a global marketing budget), advertising, test bikes, trade events, magazine sponsorship etc. shipping, some customs tariffs (quite low I imagine), Bike shop margin - judging by my local time trail only specialist shop - must be pretty healthy - because he only wants to sell £4,000+ GBP time trial machines - not interested if you're only in the market for a £2k GBP road bike - Go Figure.
So the S Works costs percentage points more to produce and pulls in 80% - 85% margin, great work if you can get it.
More fool the idiots who pay for it!!
@@theloudbloke the guys in my local bike shop told me the opposite. They find it easier to sell 3 £2k bikes than one £6k+ bike with and integrated cockpit. The buyer of the £6k bike will expect to be fitted and possibly change bar width and stem length which means they have to carry proprietary components just for that model and then use workshop time dealing with internal cables/ hoses.
That extra 2 grand is more than likely marketing budget
@@andrewcockburn7484 I didn't say it was sensible, I think he could make more money dealing with easier to please clients, but hey he thinks he knows best. Who am I to argue. He only does TT or Tri Bikes, which is a small part of the market, go figure. I know you need niche players, but if your niche you should dominate the part of the market your in. They don't!!
Go figure.
All of the comments in marketing releases and reviews about "we're going back to threaded BB" just made me laugh. If you know about the engineering it roughly translates to "we accept we're useless, so we'll go back to the tech that quietly trashes your bearings opposed to audibly alerting you to our ineptitude"
for an 6-8 grade frame they can easily make mad profits and still produce the needed quality
@@Sir_Godz definitely!
We accept that we cannot economically send a person to the factory and test product samples before they are shipped and the bottom brackets have been garbage for years so we will go back to the threaded system.
Totally agree. Don't buy it. Work less and train better. Got older bikes and 0 problems.
When did you notice a bb go bad from misaligned threads? Ever wear out a Shimano square taper bb?
Superb stuff eye opening and authentic to the core. Loved your comment “how can something be stiff and un-stiff at the same time”.
A dampening fork is stiff in one axis, and flexible in the other.
If I am guaranteed good manufacturing I would be inclined to pay more but right now it at least feels like the brands are being disingenuous with their claims
Thank you so so much for being truthful and the excellent content! We need more like you! Please keep it coming! 👍
Finally the truth about what is going on in cycling industry. Very nice.
Interesting to watch and see which manufacturers jump onto the threaded bb bandwagon. Is it an admission that their manufacturing tolerances are below acceptable standards? Also what does that say about the quality of the rest of the frame? 🤔
I've worked in the bicycle industry mainly as a mechanic for the last 38 years. In the last 20 years or so, I've worked in some very high volume, performance-based bike shops and am very familiar with all the brands featured in your video. These are some of my thoughts on current technology.
As far as ride quality on carbon fiber bikes, they have gotten tremendously better through the years. The torsional rigidity on modern bikes feels so much more stable at speed carving down a twisty mountain road. I frequently have the opportunity to do a repair on a carbon bike that's 15-20 years old and many times while test riding some of them I wonder how we kept some of them under control. Getting the speed wobbles seems like a thing of the past on most modern bikes.
The prices have gotten pretty outrageous, and I agree with you on the cost of the materials and manufacturing isn't THAT high. I feel like a huge percentage of the price is due to R & D and covering warranty issues.
As far as internal cable routing, I don't have a problem with it. I've made several videos on my channel with lots of tips and tricks for routing cables, Di2 wires, and brake hoses. I think it's somewhat of a repetition thing as well as just being familiar with some of the techniques and what tools work.
Bottom brackets are a different animal and the opinions of mechanics and engineers vary. It seems like all the early carbon fiber frames had a threaded aluminum bottom bracket shell either bonded into the frame or the carbon fiber was formed around the shell? I'm not really sure and I'm sure you have more insight on this. Either way, it seemed the biggest issue was a decent portion of the shells would separate from the frame. My opinion is that the high cost of warranties is what caused the shift to the press-fit BB system. I also think the press-fit BB works fine if the execution is good. Obviously, proper tolerances make a difference, but the biggest issues I've personally seen have come from poor/improper assembly.
I'm curious how the threaded shells will hold up long term on these new bikes. I pulled one of the T47 BB's apart on a new Trek Domane to see what it looked like, and from what I could tell, it's basically the same as the first generation carbon bikes. It would be interesting to see one of these newer frames cut up to see if the joining process has changed.
Yes, disbonded BB shells were common, hopefully they do better surface preparation and bonding this time around.
One of three youtube channels that understand the engineering/technologies and tell it like it is...unlike all the other channels raving and ranting about how great the new US10k+ bikes are. They are all in cahoots with the bike companies and part of selling the dream (and I call it a dream because there are certainly no tangible benefits to these new super expensive bikes...). Keep up the good work, and keep it real!
Are the others Hambini and Peaktorque ? Curious to know all the channels with that kind of quality content. Thx a lot.
@@kevin_du_92 Yes.
Feels good to hear a true and sensible statement on the bottom bracket topic.
Good man!
Integrated stem/handlebar with internal routing - what a f'n logistical mess! A bike shop might expect to sell a handful of the top of the line model. Now a client wants to try the bike they're gonna buy so you have to have one. Sizing and fit can be sorted out on other bikes or equipment but adjustments might still need to be done later.
The clients for the top end bikes usually just have lots of money and not much cycling experience, which makes an accurate (and future proof) fit impossible.
Say you bought a bike with said features and you come to the conclusion you want a 10mm longer cockpit. The bike might have cost 8 grand but is it still reasonable to pay another two grand for a new integrated cockpit unit and hydraulic cables plus work for reinstalling everything including the shitstorm of routing the new cables and bleeding them, and in addition possibly waiting for the actual handlebar for a month because no - a bike shop can't possibly have a stock of 1500 dollar cockpit units that they potentially won't ever sell, and because no - however the marketing guys claim you will always have your order in the shop by two working days, in practice items are out of stock and just getting in touch to order the right item might take time.
And even if you just want to lower your position by 10mm you might need to cut the steerer tube while your hydraulic cable runs inside - because your aero headset spacers will only fit BELOW the stem, and the cap can't take any extra steerer!
PS in case you can only fit a proprietary seatpost, pray that the engineering of the saddle rail clamp is solid.
Imagine taking one for a test ride in the parking lot, and crashing it.
These bikes are a nightmare to build. I chipped in to help the mechanic at my lbs build 2 off the new Emonda for a couple. I literally sized them up on a conventional bike and then transferred the measurements. You don't have room to play with getting the cable and hose lengths wrong. Took the better part of the morning to get 2 bikes sorted. They're a disaster!!
you can go into a shop and ask them to order a size 14 shoe and they won't want to do it for fear of getting stuck with it.
Tubeless tires are the work of the devil. Special pumps, fooling with sealant. Try to get the bead sealed on the side of the road when it's raining.
@@irvhh143 Tubeless for road bikes is absolute snake oil. Stronger tires puncture less. Weaker tires puncture more. Being tubeless will not fix this basic reality. You could argue that you can now run more supple (weaker) tires longer or at even lower pressures. Sure, but what happens when the sealant dries up and you don't know it's dry? You might pour in more sealant, which might not fix the flat due to the hole being too large. You are stuck on the side of the road, trying to seal this GD tire on the bead and you've blown through all your CO2's. Wasting all this time, you eventually put in a TUBE.
Great talk. Thanks Raul!
I, for one, am happy to see the return of the threaded bottom bracket. Yes, in a perfect world the bike manufacturers would be able to make bottom bracket shells with absolutely no variations. But the reality is that there are variations that then cause problems. I also prefer outboard bearings which threaded bottom brackets give you.
Great thoughts and your opinion is always in price of gold. One argument about threads is ease of service at home - so that’s the reason ( at least at the moment ) to have threaded bb, because it’s so much easier to change at home. Little bit less tools to buy. On other hand my giant tcr runs pressfit and is completely fine, no problems, no sounds coming from down there )
Great concise points. Always refreshing to hear straightforward honest thoughts that aren’t just the usual marketing nonsense. 👍🏻
Specialized prices are effing outrageous!!
Best Channel ever- maybe next time turn the autofocus of the cam off and work wirth fixed. Thanks for your great work
Thanks, yes I realised about the autofocus afterwards.
Guess who’s never getting sent another Specialized for repair...
After being an expert witness in a couple of cases that is unlikely anyway.
Specialized are complete ripoff merchants
But how well do they stand behind their warranty?
@@mixalis6168 No, they're the Apple of bikes. You get less, but you pay more, because of the brand :) That's how I see it anyway.
After about year, spot on observations about current "top-bikes" and the way things are going (not good).
Very happy that engineers outside bike manufacturers are helping us normal users to see behind marketing bs.
Thanks for You for your channel.
I read the tea leaves well ;)
Great video, thanks.
Do these prices harm efforts to popularise the sport? I know we are talking about flagship models and tech will 'trickle down' but in the last few months I've had so many friends approach me looking to get into cycling but the costs for them just to try it out are a huge barrier. Many decide they can only afford a Walmart style clunker that will give them a terrible experience.
For those of us hooked we may splash out on an SL7 but until it becomes possible to get fully set up for $500 for a beginner, cycling may just remain a luxury sport like skiing or golf and looked at with disdain by many who have tried it with inferior equipment.
Great point.
Good point. We sometimes think carbon is everything. Taking Specialized as an example, the Allez Sprint is a good bike and much cheaper.
@@markp353 allez sprint is overpriced for its "premium alu" bullshit.Get a branded Chinese carbon frame.
It's even sillier when you consider... What is it that's actually trickling down? Aero gains that are falsely obtained and most can't even take advantage of? The top tier bike being optimized for 6.8kg so everyone ends up with a heavier bike? Discs when you might not even need them? Threaded BBs?! The industry are killing themselves, short term 'gains' for long term losses.
Cost to enter the market is extremely high for a few reasons. No.1 the industry has fought tooth and nail to keep the price of a starter road bike at $1k for 15 years (the time I have been in the industry) and when I first started a rd2200 (Claris equivalent) cost $899 as of 2020 that bike now costs $1400 ignoring the fact that price went up sharply for 2021 due to the dollar being quite rough think of stuff you bought 15 years ago and how much of it has only gone up 50%... YES I will agree that the price of bikes seams crazy high but what is more crazy is that in a world where everything else gets more and more expensive WHY do we expect bikes to stay the same price or lower!!!
The prices of bikes now is insane, given these bikes are made for relatively very little in China. People need to stop handing out cash for miniscule improvements that most casual cyclists wouldnt even see.
You don't have to see it. You only have to know it and it makes you feel better. Marketing is all about perception.
If mobile phones can do it, why not bike manufacturers?
First off thank you for your time and effort into your videos. As a shop owner and tech we see and repair all brands. Over the years we have kept frames from various manufacturers cut them up and explained to clients about the internal qualities or lack of them. When you started your channel to say I was happy was an understatement, you have literally saved me hours of explaining that shiny shiny exterior does not mean inside the frame is structurally any good. We have been Scott bike dealers for years and one of the reasons was due to the fact that they have their frames third party validated by a German company called EFBE. While at Scott HQ last year they had a presentation explaining “in house testing” like every other brand does but they take it another stage and get their products tested by an independent company therefore we the client has confirmation that the product has been independently tested.
I understand that every brand can have issues but when there are steerer tube issues and failures all the marketing in the world cannot save a potential fatality. Clients should understand that on the scale of internal design faults it doesn’t get much worse. Could I sell certain names brands? - No - because I want to sleep at night and if I wouldn’t ride it then I would not sell it. When you have been in the industry for a long time you are in the fortunate position to see a vast amount of repairs we do, the reality is in the bike world you can design a failure and be successful but at our the consumer costs.
It’s not much to ask that at a fundamental level we all require a safe bike.
Integration -
The new Addict RC was released for 2020 basically a year ahead of the latest released bikes and the integration is done very well by Scott’s in-house component brand Syncros. The integrated two piece alloy bar and stem arrangement on all but the top models allows the angle of the bar to be adjusted as per normal and swapping stems takes a few minutes without taking the brake hoses apart. I have been intrigued to see the other manufactures solutions to integration and now that they have played catch-up it would seem Scott have done the best job, with the bike looking super clean but also real world usability.
We had a client who purchase a Addict RC 15 (Ultegra Di2 with hydraulic disc brakes) and wanted a longer stem installed, 10mins later the replacement stem was on and the bike looked exactly the same from an integration perspective. Why anyone would want to change to a different stem or handle bar would baffle me because it works well and looks great and is designed for the bike.
Hydraulic disc brakes on the integrated bike -
Not really an issue with a stem that is designed really well. The pros of the disc brake as everyone knows with regards to modulation has been explained many times but for me it’s the confidence when descending that the carbon fibre rim will not just delaminate on the brake track out ways the downfalls of the disc brakes, mainly rubbing noises. If you have never seen a delaminated carbon rim try and get a look at one, it is very scary. Hopefully the brake manufacturers get the rubbing issues rectified and then really there isn’t anything to complain about unless someone wants to mention extra weight it adds.
Above all technology will always move forward but I don’t agree at the expense of our safety and financial cost. Find a brand that does it well and enjoy your bike. So again thank you for your time filming and editing your videos and I look forward to watching the future episodes.
Thanks for your detailed comments, I respect and love your attitude.
Infinite stiffness and weightless, that made my month. Great video , as always
Raul, to me the biggest advantage of a threaded bottom bracket is the ease of installation and removal by a home mechanic. The tools are common and dirt cheap. In addition to this, you can use the same tool for installation and removal. For press fit systems you need a large, expensive press to install the bearings and another tool to remove them.
Considering the general lack of skills at most shops, the threaded BB is nearly foolproof to install and remove.
I’m looking forward to T47 bottom brackets taking over!
But they will still be out of alignment and make your cranks drag. As another commenter pointed out, you will no longer hear creaking, but you will destroy the bearings all the same.
Google will sadly take down my comments, so unfortunately I cannot express how I hate these modern bikes. I work with 3 of the brands you named, the swiss, the italian and the american (where they used to fire cannons over the dales).
The consumer market has drunk the KoolAid. Personally the biggest problem for me is the integrated cockpit. One crash and you're in a world of hurt
Totally agree with you. You can also add that when you travel and have to put it in the box it's a pain. Unless you have your mecanic travelling with you.
Aluminium race bikes I had 15 years ago fom Peugeot were much faster then more recent carbon bikes. But that probably has to do more about my own body then the bike itself. 😁 So in all honesty how many seconds per cycling hour do we chase and how does our bodies feel for an other race the day after? Weight, stiffness and aerodynamics in all its glory, comfort is a great improvement.
And another great job from you Sir. Congrats 💪👍
Thank you! Cheers!
I'd say if the manufacturers have enough customers for those outrageously expensive bikes, then the prices probably are justified :D
The strange thing is that there are still many bike brands around, so the competition should keep the prices in check. Funny that it does not.
Maybe if I had the money I would also want to believe all the marketing BS and hope that spending a lot of cash might compensate for my lack of FTP and bike handling skills :D
Thank you for speaking truth and sense to all this marketing speak. I believe the pricing is way overboard. I understand that there is a certain level of skill needed to produce those bikes, but come on. Also, thank you for pointing out something I always say to my buddies about new bikes, the “17% stiffer than last year’s bike...” they say that about every bike that comes out. Thank you for keeping it real! Well done!
Like your expertises!!
Great vid, just contemplating my next steel handbuilt.
Very legitimate points made in this video. I had to check eBay everyday for a month to source a long version of the seatpost for a 2013 Trek Madone. When one finally came up for auction with no buy out, I immediately offer more than he was probably expecting to buy it out. I was that desperate to win it.
Price? When it comes to value for money i think Giant has it spot on, with their current models equipped with dual-sided power meters at almost the same price as last year, they're basically giving them away
Giant appear to me to have more integrity than other brands. They also vertically integrate manufacture. That's how cost effective production of most things happens. Outsourcing is a fallacy.
I'm really starting to like Basso bikes. According to their website every frame is build inhouse and checked via NDT.
Giant does this by having proprietary parts, e.g. the seat posts mentioned in the video, and mounting the most garbage wheels they can slap their name on. Lots of long-term savings (for them) to make the deal seem good on paper.
@@earthstick yet they were huge shills for 29" and one of the first to plan the obsoleteness of 26"
@@kitten-inside giants new cross bikes can use either their proprietary D-fuse posts or generic round posts. No incentive for them to make this switch other than the fact is is good for the consumer.
Also after 20,000 miles on my slr wheels they are still solid. I have had to replace one spoke and that's it. Plus they use DT swiss internals so it would be very easy to find replacements.
Great video, thanks for taking the time.
I think a lot of people are starting to believe that the higher the cost, the better the product must be. I'm sure it's marketing departments that have been driving this idea for years now, see Apple. I must confess I do love the aesthetics of a clean frame with minimal visible cables.
After working in the outdoor gear industry and seeing the wholesale cost of "top end equipment" I can say I never buy anything new if I can help it ! Massive mark up with cheap manufactuing. I make alot of my own gear now , you can buy all the materials even at retail it's less than a third of the cost! Goretex jackets a £350 UK pounds less than £70 wholesale with tax! Family tents are the worst 300% plus mark up or more I have seen!
@@allwaysinquire6212 Indeed. I don't know how are people able to justify their buying when they also know that the shop will wholesale it a 40% later and still grab some profit.
Imagine for a moment, you being the salesperson trying to up-sale Raoul on the latest & greatest new bike. Now imagine, you looking at this video, you being the salesperson, looking at Raoul and hearing this as his response.
Salesperson: "... alright, 75% discount then... "
Thanks Raul, thank god for Giant, they still offer rim brake tcr and that I ordered for 2021. I tried disc road bike and the bike is not the same as rim brake. Disc was heavy and lazy not lively at all. I will keep my tcr for a very long time till bike companies will realize and will come back to rim brake options.
Not available in Australia unfortunately!
Good decision. They are many downsides when it comes to disc brakes on a road bike. Especially a carbon bike. People want the new stuff, people want to spend much money to look cool and up to date.
For me, the new bikes have nice paint & the selection of colours is very modern.
The components used on the new bikes are all black, Groupset all electric, Brakes Disc.
Sizing I find only the Factor & Time frames have what suits me
Is the ride of a new bike psychologically faster ...
But is it really faster in all situations if the fit is not quite right.
Great video, one of yr best, man we need iso standard for aero testing.
Just watched the Specialized team talking about the new Venge. My conclusions: ‘we screwed up the previous version and congratulations, your new $15,000 Venge was designed by a team of recent graduates who had a ‘charter’ and who communicated a lot and who have very little design or engineering experience.
Should have watched my vids on the venge or got my buyers guide.
If someone believes they ride faster with the $2k adder on the carbon price, it doesn’t matter what the God’s honest truth really is, only the truth they believe it is. Their proof? It has to be faster because it’s $2k more. Marketing 101.
Raoul, I couldn't agree more on what you are saying in this video. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The problem we have is that we are stuck with only a few brands who can make the right tolerances: Look and Time. And Look is not that great either as we saw in another of your videos. I wish you were able to sell your bike frames. Until then, I think I am going to stick to metal frames.
99.9999999% of the people buying those top of the line $15k bikes get no benefit from it, compared to a 'normally' priced bike. Ofcourse everybody is free to waste their money on what they want, but if you ask me Specialized and some other brands are basically the Benz/BMW/Audi of the bike world. Overpriced, but everybody wants one because it's a showpiece/bragging rights.
Right name ring and enough hype plus prohibitive pricing and elitist and fools will pay for the psychological "edge."
All specialists in Bullshi$$ery.
Personally being a slower rider, who rides for fun and exercise; I have never thought that my bike was hinderance to my performance. I bought a 2011 Giant TCR made from Aluminium and never thought, hey if I get a bike two times more expensive, I would be better.
This is the way that our society is going these days, companies produce goods to satisfy needs that weren't there in the first place. It's the same in the cycling world as in cell phones, cars, etc. Why does one need a $12,000 bicycle is an important question to be asked. I'm not rich, but if I made 10 times more than I do now, I wouldn't be spending 10 times more on a bicycle. Cycling has become infected with the status symbol virus. It used to be, you buy a good frameset (not the best or most expensive) and then you upgrade here or there to better suit your needs/fancy and then ride the damn thing. But now every other year or so, people just buy a new whole bike, because the new one would save them five watts. This culture of consumerism will break our backs sooner than later.
I never considred the BSA vs PF BB debate to be centered on the aspect of performance, but more on the topic of maintenance. I realize that if you have the right tools, you can work with BSA or PF, my issue with PF is that on removal (at least with me) you end up damaging the BB. No problem if you're replacing a worn unit, but if you're for example - doing something like treating / rust proofing the inside of a steel frame, destroying your BB is less than ideal.
get a "1 piece" PF bb that screw on together.....problem solved
Another interesting video having only recently found you. Chris Froome now proves your point. Definitely thinking of getting a Chinese frame but getting one for rim brakes now is not that easy. Your compatriot Oz Cycles seems to love his so thats the one to go for I think.
Hi Raoul.
Fantastic "episode". Possibly the best piece of analysis I've seen from you, and I say that as high praise.
With regards pricing, I remember, maybe 3 years ago (possibly less), looking through the Giant catalogue, seeing their top range bikes (fitted with Dura Ace DI2, dual sided power meters, and nice wheels) for about $9500, or so, and thinking that these are expensive, but you are getting a fair amount of gear on the bike for that price.
But, it seems prices have jumped by about 50%, in less than 2 years (Maybe not on the Giant's)! Admittedly, manufactures are now fitting their high end carbon wheels on the bikes, and these are $2000 - $3000 wheelsets, but the prices are absurd.
But, I think it's also worth pointing out that, at the low/medium end, values are pretty good (I'm saying in the about $1500 - $2800 AUD range). You can get some nice deals on good bikes, with good componentry at these prices. Grumpy about what Giant are charging for their Defy's though! Some of this has to be to do with the state of the Australian Dollar though.
Again, great analysis. Thanks again for the summation on threaded BB's!
You nailed it, Thanks! I would add, disc brakes are good on a mountain bike where locking up brakes on dirt is a good technique. On a road bike though, the object is not to brake.And surely not to lock em up. I ride in the mountains daily and rarely ever replace the brake pads, even with the softer full carbon pads. Disc are better brakes but to much brake is not a good or safe thing. I recently was firm braking my mtb disc bike into a turn and hit a pothole which caused me to tighten the squeeze of the brakes levers causing the front tire to lock up and nearing taking me down. Imagine that on a road bike on a high speed decent. That would not happen with rim brakes. =
Sounds like you’re not using the brakes correctly. That’s not the brakes’ fault.
Thanks for your insight on these topics, it's often a very different viewpoint from all of the review websites. A couple off topic questions/comments, do you not get very many mtb frames, if so, do you know why not, more durable, less riders, etc? If you set your camera lens to manual focus for talking videos like this the camera won't "hunt" anymore, would make the video a bit nicer to watch. Thanks!
I do get MTB s, however due to the more robust construction, they are mostly repaired. Yes, I realised about the focus after I recorded it, I was using a different set-up, rookie error.
integrated cables make sense for a pro racing bike and it obvious people want to buy what the pros are riding even if its for a Sunday 35 mile spin around the lanes of Kent (UK) no matter the price . It is also very clear those customers have no understanding of real world riding conditions or the composite material the bike is made from. The prices now of most of the top brands is 80-90% marketing, proteam funding, shipping, branding it's self and only 10/20% product you actually ride (frame prices) maybe a little higher % for the product. I sell a UK brand Orro bikes and if their range was one of the top brands you could double the price and we would probably sell more of them. Better value doesn't mean better brand any more. For the cost of these carbon bikes and the industry forcing disc brakes and gear ratios and gear function on us, I would strongly recommend buying something truly custom from a frame builder like Saffron Frameworks, Tabolt, Isen and or many other, for a bike that would be made to your design and specification and now wouldn't cost much more. Reynolds or Columbus steel tubeset will blow your mind
My favourite bike Genesis Volare 953 2014 model still like new 100s of miles ridden
I am sure there is a saying for a rant like this, anyone?
I just got a Yoeleo R12, has all the internal cables and aero features that these ones do, and it was a fifth of the price.
How do u like it so far? Really keen on it. 3k for ultegra mech with disc all carbon, and good rep.
And Yoeleo still made a profit.
And they probably had better quality control as they were putting their own name on it
@@olo398 it's been great this last year. Everything seems well aligned and it's a bit of a rocket out on the road.
I'm not a full time mechanic, but I've assembled a couple of recent Cannondale bikes. A lot of them are poorly manufactured. For example, Topstone carbon frame all come with the derailleur hanger very loose so that the threads for the thru-axle engage easily. This is only because of the poor manufacturing tolerance. In some cases, it is very difficult to get the thread engaged, this would be a total disaster in a bike race if you have a flat. And those speed thru-axle have a oring with way too much compression, they get torn appart during installation, even with grease applied. I do love the increase in tire clearance of recent bikes and I'm a fan of disc brake, just for the fact that bracking wears out a cheap and easily replaceable brake rotor instead of the wheels rim. Great show!
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Good vid, thanks. I would like to point out that in testing aerodynamic all things but bike being the same you can verify a bike is faster by a measurable margin for certain.
Yes,however it is not very simple to keep all of the other variables exactly the same.
I love the threaded bottom bracket on my Diverge. It doesn't squeak.
Dear Raoul, this video hit a nerve. Well, many do, but I’m just finishing going through the process of wanting a new ride and what I had to do to get what I wanted.
I had been looking for a long time. There was always something I wasn’t comfortable with. I like working on my own bikes. The only thing I don’t build are wheels. I have trued up my old mavic open pros with 32 holes, double butted spokes, campagnolo hubs, but never built wheels.
In the end I found a new, never used 11 year old Look frame and fork. Has what look like aluminium bottom bracket cups, threaded. Designed for rim brakes. Cables outside. Both brake and derailleur cables. Easy to work on. Disc brakes, not for me. I don’t need ‘em. Rim brakes have worked all these years, for me, just fine.
Fork. All carbon. Top and bottom of head tube 1 1/8”. Bought a campy 12 speed chorus group. Ritchey seat post, stem, and handlebars. Trying a fizik saddle for now. Oh, and my old 10 speed wheels with Record hubs take, without any changes, the new 12 speed cassette. Thank you Campagnolo. They are the aforementioned Mavic Open Pros, double butted spokes, brass nipples, that still work after all these years.
Bought a handful of new tools and torque wrenches so I can take care of the new build myself. I hope to have it done in two weeks or so when all the parts are finally here. I haven’t added it all up, but the entire cost for the built bike will be between 2500 to 3000. That includes all the tools.
Ok. There’s a big risk. If the bottom bracket loosens up I’m screwed. If the tubing fails, same deal. There’s no warranty. Nothing. But I’ve read good things about these frames and was willing to take the chance. Oh, it had the stores original price taped into the bottom bracket. 2399 euros. I paid 800 euros. I thought I’d try. If this for some reason doesn’t work out I’ll probably buy a Ritchey Road Logic and call it done.
I have 2 Look KG386s from 2001 and 2004 and a Look KX Light 2006 version, all with alloy threaded BB shells. Never had any BB problems and they seem pretty bullet-proof.
David Lewis thanks David, that is good to hear/read.
Great video as always.
The only thing I slightly disagree with in this video is your disc brake point.
The only very slight disadvantage for them is weight. Everything else is an improvement.
They're absolutely technically superior, the racing downside comes from mixing braking types. If everyone is on discs, then I see now issue.
Manufacturers introducing their own brand parts is purely a revenue generating exercise.
Frameset prices have always been extortion. Their markups must be astronomic! Anyone who buys a frameset only must be crazy in my opinion.
Phill Dunn yeah , no. Lots and lots of disadvantages for a ‘marginal’ improvement in braking and to solve the carbon clincher brake track issue. Don’t be fooled, this is purely and simply about the bike companies trying to eek out extra revenue.
Another disadvantage to discs I've noticed is when riding in extremely cold conditions. The brakes can actually stop working. Because of the properties of Shimano mineral oil will any water present in the hydraulic system pool close to the caliper and freeze when it gets cold enough. This has happened to me on several occasions when the temperature drops below -20°C.
Mechanical discs has worked best for me in snowy and cold conditions
If more carbon wheels used an aluminium tire bed, the rim brakes on carbon wheels would be a non-issue. I have wheels built so, and a proper braking surface, they have superior performance in the wet than my alu wheels. Manufacturers could do it, but maybe they don't have the engineering finesse... I believe Shimano carbon clinchers have an aluminium tire bed as well
@takotsubo "easier to brake when your hands are so cold that you've lost strength and sensation" - then you should stop riding if you have no sensation in your hands.
I agree I don't use carbon clinchers because I think they can be dangerous. The Shimano laminate wheels are great, I still use the C24 wheels for most of my riding.
Wouldn't consider one of these bikes even if I had the money. Will stick to my alu bikes.
Spot on.
Pure gold.
Apart from the Scott Foil 10 which seams a decent price all the others are way too expensive especially Trek & S work's. I agree with you on the press-fit V's threaded debate if the machining is right a press-fit is better and it should be simple to produce a product to a certain tolerance. Keep the interesting vids coming i really enjoy your channel i think I'm a closet geek lol
I had a 2018 Sagan edition Tarmac and it was $4500, $250 more then the standard Tarmac. Unfortunatly it was crashed a few weeks ago and to replace it for the 2020 standard Tarmac it would cost $4500 or if i wanted the 2021 model $5000! its the same bike without the pretty paint work $750 more in two years! No wonder insurance companies are wanting to fix them where they can. $5000 for a new tarmac that is the same as the 2018 model is just ridiculous. Damn good bike though!
FINALLY NOT ANOTHER BS SANDWICH !! Because of all the points you made l will continue to stick to my old stuff !! If l ever replace any of my bikes l think l ll go the metal route ,just safer easier to work on and overall more reliable !!
As a lifelong home bike mechanic I refuse to buy anything that has a proprietary stem, cockpit components and seat posts. I also am loath to having to chuck out my perfectly good higher end rim brake wheels for disk ones. Now I can see the allure of disk brakes for people just getting into the sport that have no investment in rim brake frames & wheel sets. The advantages they bring, stopping better in rain and mud, are offset by greater complexity, weight, aerodynamic penalties, cost, specialty tools and just fiddly to adjust. I've always owned BSA or ITA threaded bottom bracketed bikes. Never a squeak. I've embraced tubeless wheel/tire tech. It actually works great for road bikes. Have not had a flat in 3 years. Just watch where you are going : )
As a home mechanic, I agree! Soon we’ll be limited to second hand or custom frames... which is fine by me.
As a home mechainc: disk brakes are the easiest to work on. Bleed them once a year and check brakepad wear. Much less work the my rimbrake bikes.
@@fadenseiden you're joking right? Setting up disc brakes is way more involved than brake cables.
@@fadenseiden Wait til you get that slow leak that is inevitable. You will get air in your line and basically have not brakes. Then finding the leak and fixing will be involved.
@@edwinf9999 im using disk brakes for 10 years. Never happened to me.
*I have also seen your previous comments about press fit BBs with great interest.* I have an 2015 Emonda SL6 with 44000 km. The BB is the only thing I don't service myself (done by Trek). Had I known that they *only* lasted about 10000-15000 km I probably would have invested in a set of tools on day one. May yet do so! Has anyone else found that the friction goes up in cold weather (around -5C)? I am wondering whether it is because the crankset parts shrink more than the carbon? Do you think that will discover new problems with threaded bracket in carbon like the T47?
I do like the new offerings from Giant,, still the best bang for your buck
And with grest specs, allowing the buyer to customise their bike with after market parts.
Bought used 2020 Roubaix and instantly had to pay 200 EUR to Specialized for a seatpost. Their Stockholm concept store sold a bike to a total newbie and clamped the seatpost under the minimum insertion mark, being as tall as the original owner I didn't even expect this to be the case.
Not that I want to defend any of the big names (been riding Rose for years now) but I think it's a good thing that the last bikes were more focused on aero than on weight, Specialized themself said that the SL7 is not any stiffer or lighter than the SL6 (disc ofcourse).
Btw Luescher, will u ever do a video on the brands u recommend?
I really enjoyed this video...very interesting and well made points.. Halo bikes are a waste of money...most bikes below that tier are as well.
I own a few Canyons, a Colnago, a Ridley., .an old Fuji Altamira that I love but my main bike is a cheap Chinese made rim brake Kindhuman. Doesn’t excel at anything but it’s a joy to ride. And if you’ve been fortunate enough not to have to pay for your bikes in the past..paying 12k for a bike is nuts
I think the improved compliance they are claiming is for the whole bike system not the frame itself. As you said, getting stiffer and suppler for the frame seems a bit contradictory. Because of disc brakes, we now have wider rims, lower tyre pressures and the option of wider tryes. It is the wheels and tryes that are providing the improved compliance.
Wider tyres and lower pressure sure do add comfort to the ride.
I always laugh when I see someone with a 5k frame manufactured for 150-400 bucks... 😂
LOL too funny!
There is an emotional high people get when they use something “exclusive”. Its a scientifically validated effect. The higher the price and exclusivity the bigger the buzz
Reminds me of the special Buggatti Veyron which was limited to 10 (in words: ten) cars and then an Arabic sheik wanted his to be upgraded for more exclusivity. He probably also bought a new S-Works Venge with upgrades.
thank you, what i have been agueing for years. What rellay makes me wonder is WHY are consumers accepting horrible production tollerances for very expensive frames? i have a background in the advertizing industry so i do understand that part, but still?
I stil ride my 1115g size ML 14 yar old Titanium road bike and i love it.
A Few years ago i bought a cheap chinees TI CX frame, never really loved it, BB is threaded but not round, its a tad too big for me and i had to face the postmounts myself.
For two years i considered to replace the CX with an very expensive carbon allroad frame (which was recently reviewed here) but i ended up with a very nice but very heavy and ridiculous well finished and well faced Taiwan made 800€ steel fork and frameset - I loved building it because everything was so well manufactured , and after a 10 day biketour i i love it even more despite that the final build is 9.9kg + Tubus low-rider rack and panniers.
What surprised me in the recent Emonda and Tarmac reviews is that both were seemingly harsher than the previous generation. It is highly subjective, however it might be the price for the aero 😕 Apparently the mentioned theory of infinite compliance vs the infinite stiffness hit its limit, and the aero is to blame.
Wait two years: New model is 8% more comfortable than the previous one!!! Buy today!!! Rgr
Great video Raoul, thanks. Appreciate this one and the few others I've been able to watch, they come really handy to someone who wishes to understand things in a clearer way, beyond the overload of "info" that the big brands' mktng departments want us to swallow.
A side question: have you had a chance to test or repair a Santa Cruz frame? Any thoughts on them?
Thanks again, cheers!
Thanks, Yes, I have had a few Santa Cruz frames come through, I even rode one myself for a while. Typically they are built a little heavier (a good thing) and are thus quite reliable in service.
@@LuescherTeknik Thank you for your time!
There also isn't anything wrong with a threaded BB, which is the whole point. Easier to replace.
The new super bikes look incredible however I’m not ready to drink the kool-aid just yet. We’ll see how the trickle down effect works out over next 5 years. Sticking with my rim brake/bsa bb bike and non proprietary components for now.
A cheaper option, buy the SL6 comp and put the new Rapide wheels on it. You will probably fine it will not be that much slower to the SL7 to justify the cost. And no propriety seat post or cockpit to worry about. :)
@@markp353 if you want the propriety cockpit on the cheap, Ali Express is your best friend.
We have a bike shop and a BMC rental center with all of the top models from BMC. Personally, I ride a CAAD 10 and a 2018 TeamMachine SLR02 rim brake.
Your channel is a breath of fresh air, must of the big cycling channels are just mouth pieces for the cycling industry these days, most of the claims that they make are just plain stupid. As for the prices , I ride motorbikes and I cycle, so I tend to go into both types of shops, many of the new motorcycles are cheaper by a few thousand than some of the push bikes , you look at the engineering on one and then the other , how can this be ?
I think pretty much all gains in composite aeri bikes were achieved in the 90s and in the lightest frame with the mosy stifness with the Cervelo R5ca made in California in 2010..
Your the best !
Proprietry seat posts. If you love the bike and plan to keep it for many years do you purchase an extra seat post and a couple of post clamps to keep on the shelf just in case?
This might be a good idea.
Unless it's an integrated post that you need to cut 🤦🏽♂️ Manufacturers have gone mad
Great insights! Luckily Giant still has rim brake bikes. What is your opinion on the ISP models (of Giant)? Does it add any technical value (compared to downside of broken seatpost=broken fram and less resale value).
Contador's S-Works behind Luescher has a bigger problem than a damaged top-tube, it only has half a bottom bracket shell.
Another very informative video, thank you.
Thoughts? Well let's address the elephant in the room. Cost: If a repair is the same cost as a replacement frame then all arguments about R&D costs, manufacturing QC, distribution and materials pretty much go out of the window. A harsh reality.
Threaded bottom brackets: As pointed out by you and Hambini, there is nothing wrong with them and they are in fact superior, yet manufacturers QC cannot get it right.
Integrated components: Having struggled for hours getting the brake outer into a Venge Pro Vias. I choose only bikes with simple integration of components.
Marketing claims: As I am in the business of selling, you often embellish the truth, but some of the claims the bike manufacturers ome out with would make me blush, there is obviously a diminishing return of a % claim, but when a bike frame is claimed at 1 weight and comes in at a completely different one, the product should be returned as falsely advertised, couple that with the S5 headtube debacle, where a manufacturing flaw is engineered into the bike, Cervelo should have been sued to within an inch of their corporate lives for that.
The weight thing is common in the outdoor industry too many new tents, packs and clothing all come out heavier ( sometimes by big amounts) than the marketing would like you to believe, plenty of forums with people weighting out gear and posting it for all to see. Bikes seem to get less user friendly ever year ,you use to be able to work on your own bike now even the bike shops struggle to afford the tools or training to fix bikes!
No threaded is not superior. Its because QC cannot get pressfit right that Threaded is chosen to mask this issue (creaking). But it is inferior in many ways (e.g. stiffness, bonding issues).
@@wesw6787 you are correct, I meant to type they were inferior to press fit, it was early am for a Sunday when I typed my response. Thank you for pointing out my idiocy. 😉👍
prices go up to differentiate based on price only since frames from 5-10 years ago are just as good all things considered
Both you and Peak Torque have really excellent commentary on this new round of wallet killers. I'll repost my comment: Specialized's marketing spiel for the SL7 is that it is "no compromise", but compromises are a given in engineering. I won't be surprised at all if
they make an about face and release a new Venge in 2 years. From the cyclingtips podcast with Specialized, it seems the SL7 is the product of just two engineers. (I wonder how much engineering is done by the contractor who actually manufactures the frames.) In my opinion, if aero bikes were really about being aero, they would offer bars in narrower widths such as 36 cm, but you can't even find aero bars in narrow widths. Also going with a $250 aero helmet offers dramatically more bang for the buck than spending $12k on a new bike. And have you noticed that the review bikes that are sent out to the cycling media are usually the top end ones with electronic shifting, so reviewers don't even deal with the nightmare that is hidden cabling? I'm kind of hoping an open mold manufacturer copies the SL7. Which of these crop of 2020 releases is going to be the first with a fork recall?
It’s funny how many videos I watch about bikes that I could never, EVER afford to purchase. In ok with that. Fact is, instead of paying thousands more for a high end frame, I believe a better investment is to purchase a nice, reasonably priced frame from a respected manufacture like Giant and also purchase a subscription to Zwift or other online virtual cycling/training platform. I’ve become much faster on my bike due to training on Zwift than I could ever have achieved by shaving a couple hundred grams off my hardware at the cost of thousands and thousands of dollars. (Much healthier too!)
Just ride eh.
Stew Clark Exactly! Spot on.
I was faster on my giant Alegre in ‘95 than I will ever be again. Had 53/39, 11-23! Thing was a juggernaut by today’s standards and I did some monstrous climbs. Just get out there.
Stew Clark 😁🚵🏽♀️
Integrated one piece cockpits are for people that know their measurements well. I recently bought and built my new bike with an one piece integrated handlebar.. my oh my, if I had a curse jar it would be twice the price. You would think that fitment is the main reason why pro-teams often don’t use these one piece integrated systems, but after squeezing hydraulic and DI2 cables trough such a tight bar made me realise why no pro-team mechanic would want one, it’s a nightmare! Very obvious to see more 2 piece systems that are easier to install and more fitment friendly.
And, guess what, if you keep a bike a long time your measurements will change as you age.