Its still a major step in the wrong direction to do this though, you can buy a decent bike for the price of a Trek integrated bar. (full disclosure - I have a Trek)
To be fair, they have added a great deal more options in length/width with the latest integrated cockpit.... That said, I'm 100% with you on the two piece.
Would have been good for you to have also commented on Trek using the T47 bottom bracket (threaded + width). Also don't you think hydraulic cables are probably easier to internally route than wire cables - an advantage of hydraulic disc brakes (and electronic groupsets).
So getting a better fit is now an ordering system. You can't try it when you buy it, whereas if you want to go to a non-proprietary integrated solution on a regular bike later, there are lots of options.
@@thisandthatandotherthings having worked on bikes with both systems, cables are way easier to route internally through handlebars and frames. Hydraulic disc hoses are a lot stiffer. With cable bikes thread the cables first through the handlebar. Then thread the housing through the frame and into the bars from the other end. Remove the cables as you later cut the housing to the correct length, With disc brakes you have to thread a magnet into the hose and try and manipulate that with a stronger magnet on the outside. Because the hydraulic hoses are wound up they often don;t behave despite the magnet. Royal pain in the arse
The one truly unsatisfying reality I learned as an economics student was that bikes are expensive because people are willing to pay for expensive bikes.
@@MazzaJ its willingness to pay. Bikes and most consumer goods aren't just the cost of inputs plus a small markup. Thats what marketers are supposed to do. Find a market segment and create buzz and perceived value to their consumers to justify higher prices.
@@MazzaJ When Peloton, the exercise bike company, initially introduced their product at $1200, it did not sell well. But when they upped the price to over $2000, well, now everyone knows the name.
@@PeakTorque That Disney analogy was just a joke, I really had no idea who owned them. :) Anyways, it's sad as I've liked the channel so much, but not anymore. On the other hand, that "void" has been filled with a high-quality content, such as yours and Raoul's, etc. - I've learned so much here. That said, thank you for your time, expertise and presenting qualities. Your content is literally enlightening.
4chan? Isn't that a bit like a digital version of the National Enquirer tabloid? Anyway it's obvious that SRAM GXP has loads of slop between the spindle and the inner race on the non drive side. Peak Torque addressed that by making a steel tophat to fill the space. Both identified the defect that bb has. The approach Peak Torque has is much kinder to the English language but Hambini is entertaining and irreverent. Hambini "PT must be a marine engineer! PT "Hambini drives a fluid dynamics van so he must be a plumber!" Leucher Technic is another site that takes no prisoners when it comes to marketing BS and shoddy manufacture. That's your safety these guys are talking about. Crap products can kill you!
@@djjanbo Yup. Some points are the obvious benefits of streamlining their offerings, but kind of hating on Spesh. Venge is dead because these models were getting too close in design and performance.
This is very insightful about the engineering behind modern bikes and the marketing hype around moving from threaded BB to pressfit, back to threaded. This is an indication of failure to do press fit well and not a flaw with the idea. I guess bike manufacturers are relying on cyclists having short memories and being lured by the exclusivity of a £12K bike. Thanks for not swearing as much as Hambini, one of the few other people on UA-cam who understands the engineering behind bike design.
As someone with an aerospace/mechanical engineering background, I was really impressed with the analysis. Good understanding of materials, manufacturing processes involved, and overall what is important in a bike. Pierces right through the marketing nonsense. Thanks for the video!
100 % agree, its sad that new high end bicycles are becoming less and less affordable for the average Joe. I will keep my good old rim bicycle and still love it
I feel ya one day when something like a cannondale system six level trickels down to lower price I may be able to afford it. but for now I will just keep riding on with my ole Caad 10 bike . all the aero bling is cool but only if I had extra money just to dump
@@Demon09-_- Why not dump "extra" money on charity instead of enriching a bunch of already wealthy cocksuckers who openly disrespect their own customers.
@@82vitt the same thing can really be said about anything. Example people buy cars that get them point a to point b at the same time but cost them more. They had no need for it but they still buy them.but I my self will never just have the cash for a 5 figure bike. low 4 figure bikes is the sane purchase price for me. but as tech goes on one day the 12k dollar bike trickels down alot of its stuff to the 1-2k bikes for the normal user and thats when I would ever buy one
@@Demon09-_- What high tech do you need on your mid level price tag bike that isn't already on it? And cars aren't a good comparison. A bicycle, however expensive and high tech, is in the end still powered by yourself, and how fast it goes depends entirely on you. It's got to a point where there is nothing to be improved anymore because the manufacturers can't even properly translate those improvements into a properly made product, so they are going in circles and keep coming up with more and more empty sloganeering. I love those truth bombs by PT. So eye opening.
Great points, many people have forgotten about or didn't know about all the aluminium threaded shells that disbonded due to poor bonding or environmental exposure, it must be time for the new generation of marketers to bring it back!
Cheers Raoul. I definitely think its riskier doing AL bonding than spending more time in the factory to to get the press fit tol correct. Do away with 30mm axles and stick to pf86. Bearing shafts should be steel anyway.
Thank you!! I recently retired from motorcycle racing and decided I'd do more cycling. WTF is up with the prices of these bikes?! I sold my last motorcycle for less then the msrp on a lot of these push bikes. With a better rider, it was still perfectly capable of winning races. The suspension alone was more complicated than anything on a pedal bike. It's honestly laughable. I ended up buying a leftover canyon ultimate for a bit over 3k. Love the bike but I still feel like I paid a ridiculous amount of money for something so simple. Then I started shopping for wheels.... WTF!!!
I've been looking for "Hambini but not so overloaded with his own hyperbolic banter you can't tell what's actually bullshit from the manufacturers" for a while. You're it! Incredible insights.
Drug companies make a lot of money asking people, "What's your next breath worth?" Now that's extortion. At least I'm not going to die if I have to ride a heavier bike. BTW, the marketing guys know that a 12K bike makes a 7K bike look like a deal.
@@PeakTorque ...And the govt's own 'push' of cycling. But it's also a good point that @Robert Whyte makes - viz a £12K bike makes a £7K model look like a 'good deal'.
A bike dealer told me these days that the prices increased as the manufacturers offer (just like with cars) „attractive“ financing with bearable monthly rates which sort of disguises the real price the punter pays at the end of the day....
It just reflects the lack of integrity in the carbon bike manufacturing overall. Many people buy carbon frames thinking it’s the latest and greatest in bike evolution, but the reality is so much of it is produced with planned obsolescence or a throw away mentality.
it’s so refreshing to hear an educated view on bike releases. I don’t always agree with all of your points but your reviews are extremely interesting, especially with your obvious mechanical engineering and processes engineering expertise. Being able to,watch you and Hambini (sorry) is so good compared to garbage coming out of the industry sponsored channels. Keep up the great content and you deserve the respect of the manufacturers who should give you stuff to advertise because despite what they would like to believe, a lot us of are educated in engineering or science to a very high degree and laugh at their pseudo science nonsense and appreciate they need to market their product but would also appreciate them having the balls to pass their products to guys like you for a more independent review.
By accepting things from the industry it would be seen as advertising their product. Giving negative reviews would bring in their "experts" to try and discredit you. Owners of defective equipment like GXP resent an engineering defect being plainly revealed by you and other engineers. I appreciate the heads up in those cases.
"busting marketing claims!" loved it, keep it coming, it's really important to expose this kind of stuff and make people see through the marketing layer and understand what's really new tech and what's just bullshitting to sell more. Or that change in direction like with the BB, or the push for disc brakes as if rim brakes were garbage..
That was excellent. 10/12K on a pushbike is just absolute madness. Also like the honest appraisal of disc brakes. Discs are fantastic on MTB/cross/gravel bikes but not necessary on a road bike.
Disks are just better... who has ever moaned about better brakes? Even more noticeable how good they are in the wet And i have won national championships, ridden road, mtb, and cross, so im not just a cafe racer...
@@karl8805 I don't think anyone disputes that they are better brakes, but they do have convenience issues compared to rim brakes, especially since a bad disk brake is embarrassing to ride compared to a bad rim brake which you can survive with dignity intact. For heavy e-bikes, especially the utility or cargo variety, hydraulic disks are a must.
Stumbled upon your vid and I simply loved it. So rare to have a blunt and honest opinion. I don't think you are winning any of these companies over but I do think there could be room for you as a consultant to help them develop products that actually matters for the people enabling them to make profit at the end of the day (if we ignore the chinese manufacturing and reducing the number of different frames etc....). Can't wait for the next one. Keep it up :)
@@PeakTorque so in the year 2021 living in a flat state I shouldn’t feel bad about buying a 2013(I think?) used cannondale super six evo duraace that has rim brakes? I just really wanted to do a “build” as I enjoy building bikes but couldn’t afford a new frame when I could get a super nice used frame with impeccable duraace group set that looked hardly riden for the same price as a new frame alone. I put 55mm light bicycle clincher carbons on it and was told by many “that was a mistake! You bought clincher carbons from China!?” “You’re asking for trouble”. I’ve spent years dreaming about carbon rims and could t fathom spending several thousands on a set and I just wanted a cool looking bike to give me the placebo of riding harder because I was on a “cool” looking bike. But these manufacture make it so hard bleeding us of money on these obviously well over priced bikes.
I currently own TCR Advanced 1 Disc 2021 and I have to say that it was an incredible value for the money I've spent on it last year. Not to mention the moment when I had to switch to my winter aluminium bike - difference between night and day. Can't wait for spring to finally ride this beast again!
As a motorcyclist, I’ve been comparing the two for many years. I bought a 600cc sport bike for under $8000 about 15 years ago. Probably around $10k now. Bicycle prices are ridiculous. In bicycling, I think that your best option, as a general weekend warrior, is to buy something that’s at least 3 or 4 years old. Basically a generation behind in frame design. Because chasing the latest design and tech is unreachable for most people. Maybe they should offer a lease program for those that want the latest and greatest. Kind of like the automobile business model. Seems to work like a charm for them.
Same for motorbikes. If you wanted the latest and greatest tech you would be spending hundreds of thousands, if not millions, on the development and manufacturing of custom pieces and prototypes that usually only the pros get. Somehow having the latest and greatest has become the norm in cycling, so thats why you see those crazy prices being normalized.
Obi-Wan Kenobi Many cyclists, including myself, are vein individuals. And the manufacturers know it. That’s why they market their bikes like a fashion house. Look at Specialized’s wild paint schemes on their Allez. They know that they need to revamp every couple years so that we’re always left wanting. Ever ask your wife why she can’t be seen in public with the same Chanel bag that you bought her last season? BTW, do you watch MotoGP? I’m wondering if that mad lad Marc Marquez is going to race this weekend and if he does, is he going to wipe the floor after that broken arm just two weeks ago.
Not sure a lease program is required, they know their demographic and they appear to have very large, very stretchy, very deep pockets. I look on with mild interest, while riding a 13-year old Ti bike that once cost somewhere around £3k. I can't imagine replacing it any time soon, especially as I personally wouldn't be noticeably faster on the latest and greatest aero wonder. Think that's the big difference to me - maybe comparing a superbike isn't right (personally don't think motogp fits either as I can still easily see where that £3m goes ahead of a regular bikes) - but even with superbikes or lower it's easy to see what an additional £5-10k gets you in the motorbike world. Personally think the shift to £10k+ road bikes is driven by nothing other than profit margin, rather than a reflection of cutting-edge innovation.
I don’t know, I ride motorcycles myself and it really bugs me when folks compare the price of entry level motorcycle to a top end bicycle. When you look at a fully race prepped 600cc sport bike for the super stock class you’re looking at about $30,000 USD or roughly 3x what it would cost you to buy a road bicycle that the pros race on. I would say a bone stock Yamaha R6 is more comparable to a $3,000 road bicycle. In that both are nearly as fast as their race prepared counter parts, but both will need a huge amount of cash dumped onto them to close that last little bit of performance gap.
Even if a small engineering firm made just one top end end bicycle each year I still don't think it would be worth near £10K. And if you just compare the amount of engineering involved in the construction of a motorcycle (bearing in mind that you can buy a pretty high performance machine for £10K) with all the hundreds of individual components and the abundance of tolerances required in the engine and gearboxes etc, then either motorcycles are incredibly good value or top end cycles are ridiculously overpriced. I love both types of machinery from an engineering perspective but I really struggle to see how some cycles can be those huge prices.
There have been £8000 bikes around for the best part of a decade, I remember some of the high end Supersix’s. They had real bling components made by boutique manufacturers though. They were stunning. I’m thinking 2010-2014.
This was quality. First time I’ve stumbled across your channel (now a subscriber), and it answered SO many of the questions I had as a browser on the new bike market. Also very happy I don’t need to sell my carbon rim brake wheels 😅
Superb analysis and delivery, as ever PT. Thanks for the time and effort you dedicate to your channel and the videos you put out - you are collecting an avid and growing following no doubt due to the honesty and integrity you bring to the table. Cheers, A Fellow Engineer
My giant tcr advanced pro 1 2019 cost 1900 British pounds, mechanical rim brake, is really stiff, light at 7.2kg. just as fast as some bikes costing 5 times the price
@@manupasquette4116 ay man I'm only 16 and got it in march just before lockdown so haven't had the chance to race it yet. Don't think anybody who isn't sponsored is making money back on winning races.
Thanks for the reasonable, informed, and professional perspective. Road cycling has largely lost its soul. The cyclist used to be the working class, tough, practical rider who cared more about the ride than the bike.
25yr experienced pro team mechanic here. This guy knows his stuff. Excellent & very informative for all cyclists. What consumers must bare in mind is that most brands & manufacturers of such, are totally market driven. There are always progressions, but also regressions within the industry & its for the end consumer (us customers) to use common sense & not get drawn into the blurb of the latest trends. A trend is exactly that, a trend. For better, worse or no different. As for the brand GIANT. They're quite possibly the most honest, true & best value brand out there. Not only that, but also of the highest quality & second to none. I ride a GIANT TCR Advanced, bought with my own money. A last note, read my comment on Chris Froome's recent disc brake UA-cam video. Disc brakes on road bikes are more trouble than they're worth.
i have a 2018 reacto 5000 with the flex seat tube insert and you don't feel the saddle moving on bumps at all, it's just comfy even more than my 2013 leader fox carbtec was (incidentally with threaded BB where the aluminium tube separated from the carbon frame), so no ... there is no such feeling as low radius flex and as you were concerned ... my dad has a giant tcr with 105, i have the reacto 5000 with ultegra now, both for reasonable price and good quality
"Now the old threaded bottom bracket... in my opinion, a well manufactured press fit is far superior. ...you have to remember that the threaded cup that you are threading into your frame has got the bearing pressed into it so why are you replicating that? The only reason you are replicating that is because you are admitting that you can’t make that (press fit) interface to the required accuracy and repeatability. By going back to a threaded bottom bracket, you are basically saying that we don’t have the ability to manufacture this part at this accuracy and repeatability and still maximize our profit... there is no technical reason why it is better.” Luescher Teknik ua-cam.com/video/aQ5aNlfRBr4/v-deo.html
UA-cam recommended me this video and was not disappointed. You definitely seem toknow what you're talking about! And good on you for doing research toback up your claim and owning up to it. Takes a strong character to do that.
My BMC Roadmachine uses a PF86 BB and, touch wood, it spins almost as well as those hambini spin tests with a standard Shimano press fit bb. Sad that something working as it should be feels like an exception.
The list price of the top of the range s works tarmac is $18000 AUD here in Australia. That is 1000cc superbike territory. Totally agree about the necessity of disk brakes and would love to be able to buy a new giant TCR with rim brakes. Unfortunately Giant Australia, in their wisdom, don't include a rim brake TCR in their lineup.
Perfectly said, this whole discs brake bikes only is totaly wrong. I am buying rim brake tcr for next year and thats it for me for a long time. This whole marketing in bike industry is nonsense. If UCI would lower the weight limit to 6kg than we would see no disc brake bikes in peloton. Now you have to spend 4000-5000€ on 8,0kg bike that is crazy. Hope manufacturers will see big decline in their sales of new disc brake bikes
I think there are things more important to amateurs than weight. I appreciate the innovation that the weight limit has allowed. If the weight limit were 6kg or less, bikes today would look a lot like bikes from 10 years ago, just lighter. I am eagerly anticipating a new Venge, which will probably break UCI rules and be significantly heavier than 6.8kg even in top trim
If anyone dares dislike this video you must acknowledge your vested interest in a) your ridiculously overpriced frame. B) your willingness to lap up marketing bs c) your privilege in being able to grossly overspend on your hobby. Signed a pinarello f10 rim brake owner 😝😝😝
The bike on the wall is reasonably expensive and i do feel like a tit riding it. But, i paid bottom dollar/discount for the parts and most of them are old parts!
barebare needn’t I remind you that we are not in an equal world where everybody is given the same opportunity - you are born of a class and you are most likely to continue in it. The working class do not have the same access to education or contacts that will improve their chances of being successful and the doors open to them are significantly fewer in number. The upper class has the access to education and contacts that ease their pathway into higher paying careers. I’m the first to go to university in my family, I did not have my mother or father’s expertise in becoming a medic, a lawyer and so on to think that I could apply myself to those avenues or do so off my own back. It’s not impossible but my argument and anecdotal evidence is attempting to explain why it is not truly earned as you say, and it is not true that most wealth is self made. I’d be interested to understand your definition of self made - working classes are significantly less likely to or be able to invest in financial products or property and so on, given the ceiling for profitable entry. This wealth that is often found amongst middle and upper classes is made not on the toiling time of a worker but rather the money making more money in itself. Finally I must add that whereas skilled labour such as a surgeon is of course highly paid for their expertise and handiwork, it is a slippery slope to say that retail staff (of which I am along my studies) a janitor, or waste collectors do not work as hard as a surgeon - given that a spend 8 or more hours 5 or more days a week doing their profession. Many higher paid jobs require less physical labour but more mental strain. Who values the expense of ones time? Of course, lawyers in firms are to work long hours in their training contracts and the sheer volume of hours spent under pressure is paid for handsomely by their employers. Irrespective of this I would be at odds to say they work 3-4x as hard with their time as any of my previous examples do and thus should earn 3-4x as much, or significantly more like in the United States (10x, 20x as much). I hope I have offered significant insight into why overspending on a hobby is not an opportunity earned but rather enshrined in privilege even if their is a hard working aspect entailed.
How refreshing to hear a non BS presentation on bike design these days. I am glad I got out of the industry 15 years ago, as I don’t think my (IMO) common sense pragmatism would allow me compete with all the marketing hype these days. And I was only crafting custom made steel road frames for individual clients. Also, big 👍👍 for giving rim brakes a shout out. Thank you.
Betteridge's law of headlines did not disappoint! (For those who don't know, it basically says any headline that contains a question, the answer will be 'no'.)
You are an asset to the increasingly advertiser-lead world of YT (and SM in general). You did a great job of making me see sense through all the SL7 hype that had got me very precariously perched on the edge of my credit card (for which my wife sends you her thanks!). But you ARE right: if you have that money to spend, don't spend it on a top end push bike... but something that's actually 'worth' the money. Your reasoning behind your critiques is very down to earth, and helps us not run away with the enthusiasm that gets whipped up by the manufacturers' PR machines (aka YT channels) that regurgitate what they've been told to. Thank you, and keep up with the truthful, extremely interesting content that you deliver us on your YT channel. 👏👍
Not necessarily rich people. The everyday person can afford a $7000 Tarmac SL7 pro (Ultegra Di2) if they feel they enjoy the hobby enough and ride enough to make it worth while. You could easily spent that much if you were into sailing, hunting, fishing, golfing, off-roading, motocross, etc. Saying that only rich people ride expensive bike is totally oblivious to serious riders who put their time and devotion into the sport/hobby.
Boss 302 I said that bikes are expensive because there is a market for them, I didn’t say only rich people ride expensive bikes. 7K to splash on a bike is expensive. Take into consideration shoes, kit & other accessories as well as the continual up keep, and that 7K stretches into nearly 5 digits. So yes, bikes are bought by people who have a lot of disposable income & people with a lot of disposable income, aka, rich people, like to ride bikes. So yes, bikes are expensive because people keep paying too much for them. 18K for an S-Works & 16K for an Emonda SLR 9 is ridiculous. If you buy one & you don’t have a lot of money, I’d call you stupid because no matter how keen you are that’s not a smart investment. In the end, people like me get burnt because 7K for a Ultegra spec’d bike is ridiculous in its own right.
AG Coarseman only if you can afford it, how’s an avid cyclist on a middle to low income going to afford a mid-ranges bike at around 7k to continue riding & racing? Bike are becoming stupidly expensive.
@@an_rc_guy8256 i disagree. you can justify the price but if you're on a low income job it does not matter whether you love road racing or not. You MUST have a decent income to spend 7k$+ on a bike. Good news is: you dont need to. even as cat2-cat1 racer you can do well riding a second hand built or a hong fu for a fraction of the money.
Subscribed, very educational videos and so nice to hear about bikes and tech from someone without an agenda. No marketing BS, it's refreshing. I totally agree, if you've got 10k to spend on a road push bike, don't spend it, spend the money on something worth 10k. The bike industry is making perfectly good technology obsolete and ramping up the prices when it's just greed. I've got a 2008 Specialized Tarmac SL with rim brakes and mechanical groupset and it's perfect for me, I'd never change it because I'm not a great cyclist so anything more than that would be a waste and spending 10k on a push bike is insane.
I still can't forgive Trek for buying up Klein in the mid '90s and slowly killing off the brand name. Klein were probably the first MTB company to make aluminium frames that didn't just snap at random due to fatigue issues, in no small part thanks to Gary Klein's stint at MIT. Trek were gluing their aluminium frames into lugs (badly) with 'aerospace' adhesive before they bought Klein. Sadly Trek's welded frames were still unreliable even afterwards, so they probably didn't have anyone who understood what Klein told them about how to make good frames when the IP was being transferred. The good thing with Trek is that, apart from one bike shop owner who literally denied that fatigue failures existed at all after being presented with an absolutely textbook version of this failure type, where the headtube of my frame detached completely from the rest of it, once I got around him, claiming warranties for snapped frames from Trek themselves was and is pretty straightforward. Every single Trek I and my friends rode in the late '90s and early 2000s snapped (We stopped buying them after that - Giant were massively more reliable and cheaper).
seems like were gonna go back to threaded BBs and then in a few years go to press fit again and have it called new tech and have all the marketing about how it beats threaded again
I'd say that all of the points that you have said in this video are spot on 👌. Especially with the rim brake vs disc brake topic and threaded vs PF topic. I also think that the bike industry is going in circles in terms of engineering. Keep up the great videos man!
Do you see other manufacturers following Specialized in merging their leightweight and aero top end race bikes (ex: SuperSix and SystemSix or Ultimate and Aeroad)? The pricing on some of the bikes in indeed crazy. Here in the UK if looking to spend £1500-2500 it just seems crazy to buy anything else than a Giant or a Canyon.
Build your own the way you like it. Buy a cheap unbranded Chinese frame and build it. It will be 3 times cheaper, custom built by/for you and will perform much better. It's just a bike not an airplane....
Please someone give me the strength not to cry when Merida gets absorbed by one of those goon corps that are ruining the bike itself for a slight bump in profit... We almost lost Time this year already, hope the new management won't fuck it up (or if they do that it doesn't go too bad), same goes with Mavic which has just been saved from the hands of crooks who legally pocketed millions in the process, those bastards, and has a ton of work to do to get back to building quality stuff and stop themselves from ever reverting to baffling scams such as those carbon wheels marketed as the aero shizz with freakin holes the size of a presta cap around every spoke.... Worried about Look as well...
@@PeakTorque It was bought back from an obscure hedge funds (you know, one of those not shady at all ones that just so happened to have its address in Delaware...) It was so bad than even people working for the Amer group (Salomon) its previous main shareholder could not be certain to who exactly Mavic had been sold to anymore. Crazy shit. But skies have cleared, Mavic is now owned by the Bourrelier Group a family held fund that was mostly known for the creation & former ownership of a brand of home improvement stores (Bricorama) in France with entities in Spain, Blegium & the Netherlands as well. They've managed to keep over half of the previous employees and are set to refocus the brand around the production of everything wheel related (so no more clothing, shoes etc I guess). They also claim they want to refresh and boost the R&D office and update the tooling & production facilities as soon as possible. They seem solid, but let's not get our hopes up too high.
@@NeilXDavis I wasn't providing any info here, was just joking. The bike industry is a very lucrative market and the pandemic has made it top of the hype. Even Ducati is building bikes now (ugly ones but still ^^). Merida & Giant are the two solid corps out of Taïwan, doesn't make them safe from greedy investors forever though... And Specialized...don't know how much of an influence that Merida shareholding has on their decision making, there are things they do that one can only love and/or admire and other stuff gosh...what a bunch of pricks they can turn into, they once sued a small bike shop for the use of the word Roubaix (for which they didn't even have the trademark rights in the first place...)
That was fantastic to watch! Thank you for making this video! I have found it baffling how bike prices have gone up so high, and how much top-tier groupsets and frames are pushed by bicycle outlets and manufacturers nowadays. I have not known about bicycling for ages as I only got into bicycling seriously about a year and a half ago as an enthusiast (no racing), but it still made me amazed by how hard things are marketed, and how expensive they can get. I bought a Trek Domane AL 3 (aluminum with carbon fork, and Sora groupset (minus the brakes)) with rim brakes, and I have been immensely happy with it. I was thinking what I would buy should I buy a new bike and I thought that a carbon bike with a 105 or an Ultegra groupset at most would be enough, and that went from about $1,300 CAD for the Domane, to about $3,500 CAD for an Emonda-like bike. I have considered the volumes and prices of other products - including motorcycles, as I have been interested in them for years - and to see something with precision tolerances with electronics; spinning, complex masses; and special alloys used to create incredible machines capable of propelling a person very quickly for similar prices to medium- and high-end bicycles perplexed me. I also found the idea of trouble making bottom bracket fittings nuts, too! (I am no engineer, by the way, but it certainly made sense with my rudimentary knowledge.) Anyhow, thanks again! Educational videos like these are some of the best things out there for making informed decisions about things, and for learning about how things work on a fundamental, but technical level (as opposed to talking about how disc brakes work, or which derailleur someone should choose for their chosen gearset), and I really appreciate what it taught me! These videos are truly invaluable, and I hope to see more videos like these in the future - from you, or someone else (no pressure).
i was asking myself the same thing. even if i had $12k burning a hole in my pocket, i wouldn't give it to these bike brands. in my opinion, no bike is worth half that cost. it's a BICYCLE - the technology is so marginally indifferent that the normal joe couldn't tell you the difference in bikes 10 years apart.
When you’ve bought a couple of Ducati’s, hondas and a KTM all new for less than £9k it’s never going to compute to buy a bicycle for more than a couple of grand. I understand the volume / cost issue but when you look at the manufacturing quality and detail of the motorcycles it’s insane to expect to pay so much for bicycles.
@@yeknommonkey exactly...it's motogp technology at it's highest level being passed down to the chain to consumers and these bicycle manufactures are on the same level with their pricing lol - it's a joke.
Depends on the type of cycling you do. Competitive cycling has been expensive since the dawn of time. As for out of shape amateurs, the cheaper the bike, the better the workout.
@@Bugumir this is objectively false, a watt is a watt on an sl7 or an old fixie. for the same speed it's more work on the old bike for sure, but you're not going as fast as an sl7 on a cheaper bike.
@@petersagan3158 outside of actual racing, speed is only a byproduct. For anything outside of that, be it fun, weight loss or training, an SL7 is an exorbitant waste of money, in my opinion.
I have a 10 year old Scott team bike, cost me about 1400$, original shimano 105. Any lack of performance is still not the bikes fault. This was a great vid.
Dylan Newton I work at a giant shop, none of the giant dealers can order bikes at the moment, they’re being allocated to the different shops. Giant have the best value for money but the prices are still rising
Marcel R. It’s a poor business model not being able to guarantee customer satisfaction. I had cash to put down a deposit to ensure a product yet was told first in best dressed once stock arrives. Utterly ridiculous.
Dylan Newton that would be the shops fault not giants fault, giant shops are not connected they are all independent bike dealers, at my shop we only take deposits once we have the bike and if the bike is out of stock we have a waiting list and call the people in order. We can’t order in bikes at the moment due to the corona virus causing everything to be out of stock
I had my eye on a canyon aeroad a few years back. I wanted etap and hydraulics, so I waited because at that point it didn’t exist. 12 months later, it arrived.... I bought a brand new motorcycle instead. All they do is pour money into R&D and only get minute gains from it, but want you to reimburse their fucking waste of money. Nope!
Thank you for sharing your expertise on the subject. I really enjoy your videos. I especially like how forthright you are on engineering inadequacies in the industry. Specific to this video, I completely agree with you regarding Press Fit Bottom Brackets being superior. I have a Giant with a PF BB86 BB, and it works really well.
You sometimes i think the same. The companies say some bikes are manufactured i Taiwan not all the bikes. I don't think so. By the way, sometimes i watch your vídeos.
As per usual you are right Harley. Problem is people believe the marketing and they all want to have the bikes the pro riders use, the brand name is everything!. Marketing teams know Muppets will pay the cost lol!.
True .snap on and mac and Draper tools etc all made in the same factory just named different and priced pathetically. Same with bikes .vape products. Its a scam
That doesn't mean every bike coming out of those factories is built exactly the same. The OEMs build the frame to spec and budget that the customer defines, and a top tier s-works will be built to a different spec and budget than an entry level carbon frame from a small manufacturer.
Thank you for this excellent, well considered and unbiased assessment of the high end of the bike industry. The bottom line is great news for those who want a good bike to race or just train on. The disappointing part is that as in the past, many of the questionable bike design decisions that you identified are clearly dictated by marketing departments. Some things never change.
always interesting to hear your thoughts on new bikes, added with your industry insights and with giving a broader perspective. great, thanks, more please 😃👍. ...I absolutely agree with your recommendation, I like the TCR, and rimbrakes are just fine for many of us. unfortunately the TCR’s geometry is not for me ( I am not flexible enough, and I don‘t like 4+ cm spacer towers on the headtube). anyways. cheers✌️
Very nice summation, thanks. It should be interesting to see what happens in 2021. There are a lot of factors that are drying up people's slush funds for top end bikes.
Great channel, just found it. On the bike vs. motorcycle question, the best explanation for the ridiculous prices I've heard (and I can't find it or I'd give some credit but I believe it was on another UA-cam channel and was talking mountain bikes vs. dirt bikes, but same principles apply) is that we're comparing the top end bicycle models to the basic consumer motorcycles/dirt bikes. The top end bicycles are going to have a lot of tech and composite materials in them because weight, stiffness, compliance, etc. are all delicately balanced using a lot of engineering and 'cutting edge' technology which is going to be more expensive. Meanwhile, the typical motorcycle and/or dirt bike might have some of that, but doesn't have the same weight concerns, etc. because it's got a motor and just needs to be good enough, so they can get more stiffness just using cast aluminum or whatever reasonably basic/affordable methods needed without much engineering. However, if you compared top of the line racing motorcycles with the top of the line bicycles, the motorcycle's probably going to be much more expensive because it now is using all the same types of materials/technologies to get a slight advantage that the top of the line bikes are using. I'm sure that's not the entire explanation (and I'm sure the companies are ridiculously up charging us where the market will allow because all of the friggin dentists who don't care about costs will buy it anyways), but like I said, this made the most sense to me - that essentially we're not comparing apples to apples and it doesn't have much to do with volume and much more to do with the technologies and materials being used in top of the line models vs. basic models.
Correction: apparently Trek do let you customise the stem length and bar width through project one.
Its still a major step in the wrong direction to do this though, you can buy a decent bike for the price of a Trek integrated bar. (full disclosure - I have a Trek)
To be fair, they have added a great deal more options in length/width with the latest integrated cockpit.... That said, I'm 100% with you on the two piece.
Would have been good for you to have also commented on Trek using the T47 bottom bracket (threaded + width). Also don't you think hydraulic cables are probably easier to internally route than wire cables - an advantage of hydraulic disc brakes (and electronic groupsets).
So getting a better fit is now an ordering system. You can't try it when you buy it, whereas if you want to go to a non-proprietary integrated solution on a regular bike later, there are lots of options.
@@thisandthatandotherthings having worked on bikes with both systems, cables are way easier to route internally through handlebars and frames. Hydraulic disc hoses are a lot stiffer. With cable bikes thread the cables first through the handlebar. Then thread the housing through the frame and into the bars from the other end. Remove the cables as you later cut the housing to the correct length,
With disc brakes you have to thread a magnet into the hose and try and manipulate that with a stronger magnet on the outside. Because the hydraulic hoses are wound up they often don;t behave despite the magnet. Royal pain in the arse
The one truly unsatisfying reality I learned as an economics student was that bikes are expensive because people are willing to pay for expensive bikes.
could you explain a little further?very curious what your studies revealed
@@MazzaJ its willingness to pay. Bikes and most consumer goods aren't just the cost of inputs plus a small markup. Thats what marketers are supposed to do. Find a market segment and create buzz and perceived value to their consumers to justify higher prices.
@@myheartbelong2oi interesting indeed! thanks for the information!
@@MazzaJ When Peloton, the exercise bike company, initially introduced their product at $1200, it did not sell well. But when they upped the price to over $2000, well, now everyone knows the name.
@@trekkeruss crazy! We humans are suckers for price tags
Former GCN viewer here - this is way better coverage of the new models!
Welcome Neo to the Matrix
GCN is owned by Disney, I suspect.
I find their content in the same fairytale realms as Aladdin and co.
Jakub Mačo i think its Discovery/Eurosport. Where they are going with it is confusing.
hi fellow former
@@PeakTorque That Disney analogy was just a joke, I really had no idea who owned them. :) Anyways, it's sad as I've liked the channel so much, but not anymore.
On the other hand, that "void" has been filled with a high-quality content, such as yours and Raoul's, etc. - I've learned so much here.
That said, thank you for your time, expertise and presenting qualities.
Your content is literally enlightening.
Well said. Breathe of fresh air on the bike trade and engineering practices, without the Hambini tourettes.
Hambini is winging it with his fake name and fake credentials
I doubt that, but he does need Haldol for the Tourette's!
david burgess he got outed on 4chan, his name is Sanjeev Varah and he doesn’t have a PhD
4chan? Isn't that a bit like a digital version of the National Enquirer tabloid? Anyway it's obvious that SRAM GXP has loads of slop between the spindle and the inner race on the non drive side. Peak Torque addressed that by making a steel tophat to fill the space. Both identified the defect that bb has. The approach Peak Torque has is much kinder to the English language but Hambini is entertaining and irreverent. Hambini "PT must be a marine engineer! PT "Hambini drives a fluid dynamics van so he must be a plumber!" Leucher Technic is another site that takes no prisoners when it comes to marketing BS and shoddy manufacture. That's your safety these guys are talking about. Crap products can kill you!
david burgess keep symping for that fraud if it makes you feel better, the others are legit
Finally an unbiased, well structured, smart overview. Well done, mate!
There is no such thing like unbiased. Good arguments maybe but still an opinion.
@@djjanbo Yup. Some points are the obvious benefits of streamlining their offerings, but kind of hating on Spesh. Venge is dead because these models were getting too close in design and performance.
except he only talks about the s-works, as if thats the only model of tarmac they make.
This is very insightful about the engineering behind modern bikes and the marketing hype around moving from threaded BB to pressfit, back to threaded. This is an indication of failure to do press fit well and not a flaw with the idea. I guess bike manufacturers are relying on cyclists having short memories and being lured by the exclusivity of a £12K bike. Thanks for not swearing as much as Hambini, one of the few other people on UA-cam who understands the engineering behind bike design.
I totally agree, very unbiased, really educational too. Thanks
As someone with an aerospace/mechanical engineering background, I was really impressed with the analysis. Good understanding of materials, manufacturing processes involved, and overall what is important in a bike. Pierces right through the marketing nonsense. Thanks for the video!
100 % agree, its sad that new high end bicycles are becoming less and less affordable for the average Joe. I will keep my good old rim bicycle and still love it
I feel ya one day when something like a cannondale system six level trickels down to lower price I may be able to afford it. but for now I will just keep riding on with my ole Caad 10 bike . all the aero bling is cool but only if I had extra money just to dump
@@Demon09-_- Why not dump "extra" money on charity instead of enriching a bunch of already wealthy cocksuckers who openly disrespect their own customers.
The average Joe has 0 business or even need of riding a high end bicycle.
@@82vitt the same thing can really be said about anything. Example people buy cars that get them point a to point b at the same time but cost them more. They had no need for it but they still buy them.but I my self will never just have the cash for a 5 figure bike. low 4 figure bikes is the sane purchase price for me. but as tech goes on one day the 12k dollar bike trickels down alot of its stuff to the 1-2k bikes for the normal user and thats when I would ever buy one
@@Demon09-_- What high tech do you need on your mid level price tag bike that isn't already on it? And cars aren't a good comparison. A bicycle, however expensive and high tech, is in the end still powered by yourself, and how fast it goes depends entirely on you. It's got to a point where there is nothing to be improved anymore because the manufacturers can't even properly translate those improvements into a properly made product, so they are going in circles and keep coming up with more and more empty sloganeering. I love those truth bombs by PT. So eye opening.
Great points, many people have forgotten about or didn't know about all the aluminium threaded shells that disbonded due to poor bonding or environmental exposure, it must be time for the new generation of marketers to bring it back!
I had one in the shop about a month ago. It had come totally unbounded from a specialized tarmac and cracked part of the frame in the process.
I wouldn't thrust Specialized with a threaded sweater.
@@reginaldscot165 how old was it?
Cheers Raoul. I definitely think its riskier doing AL bonding than spending more time in the factory to to get the press fit tol correct. Do away with 30mm axles and stick to pf86. Bearing shafts should be steel anyway.
@@PeakTorque Bingo!!
Thank you!! I recently retired from motorcycle racing and decided I'd do more cycling. WTF is up with the prices of these bikes?! I sold my last motorcycle for less then the msrp on a lot of these push bikes. With a better rider, it was still perfectly capable of winning races. The suspension alone was more complicated than anything on a pedal bike. It's honestly laughable. I ended up buying a leftover canyon ultimate for a bit over 3k. Love the bike but I still feel like I paid a ridiculous amount of money for something so simple. Then I started shopping for wheels.... WTF!!!
I've been looking for "Hambini but not so overloaded with his own hyperbolic banter you can't tell what's actually bullshit from the manufacturers" for a while. You're it! Incredible insights.
Cheers
a voice of reason without any marketing bs 👍
current bike prices is not capitalism its extortion.
Drug companies make a lot of money asking people, "What's your next breath worth?" Now that's extortion. At least I'm not going to die if I have to ride a heavier bike. BTW, the marketing guys know that a 12K bike makes a 7K bike look like a deal.
They’ve actually timed it well with the exodus of Golfers to cycling due to social distancing rules.
@@PeakTorque ...And the govt's own 'push' of cycling. But it's also a good point that @Robert Whyte makes - viz a £12K bike makes a £7K model look like a 'good deal'.
A bike dealer told me these days that the prices increased as the manufacturers offer (just like with cars) „attractive“ financing with bearable monthly rates which sort of disguises the real price the punter pays at the end of the day....
It just reflects the lack of integrity in the carbon bike manufacturing overall. Many people buy carbon frames thinking it’s the latest and greatest in bike evolution, but the reality is so much of it is produced with planned obsolescence or a throw away mentality.
I never knew what OCLV stood for, got a good laugh out of that one 🤣
it’s so refreshing to hear an educated view on bike releases. I don’t always agree with all of your points but your reviews are extremely interesting, especially with your obvious mechanical engineering and processes engineering expertise.
Being able to,watch you and Hambini (sorry) is so good compared to garbage coming out of the industry sponsored channels. Keep up the great content and you deserve the respect of the manufacturers who should give you stuff to advertise because despite what they would like to believe, a lot us of are educated in engineering or science to a very high degree and laugh at their pseudo science nonsense and appreciate they need to market their product but would also appreciate them having the balls to pass their products to guys like you for a more independent review.
Thanks. Means a lot to hear that.
By accepting things from the industry it would be seen as advertising their product. Giving negative reviews would bring in their "experts" to try and discredit you. Owners of defective equipment like GXP resent an engineering defect being plainly revealed by you and other engineers. I appreciate the heads up in those cases.
"busting marketing claims!" loved it, keep it coming, it's really important to expose this kind of stuff and make people see through the marketing layer and understand what's really new tech and what's just bullshitting to sell more.
Or that change in direction like with the BB, or the push for disc brakes as if rim brakes were garbage..
Worth watching every second! More vids like this one please...
Il try!
Really appreciate this channel, THANK YOU for this type of coverage!! Informed, well thought out, backed by data and most importantly, pragmatic.
That was excellent. 10/12K on a pushbike is just absolute madness. Also like the honest appraisal of disc brakes. Discs are fantastic on MTB/cross/gravel bikes but not necessary on a road bike.
Disks are just better... who has ever moaned about better brakes?
Even more noticeable how good they are in the wet
And i have won national championships, ridden road, mtb, and cross, so im not just a cafe racer...
@@karl8805 I don't think anyone disputes that they are better brakes, but they do have convenience issues compared to rim brakes, especially since a bad disk brake is embarrassing to ride compared to a bad rim brake which you can survive with dignity intact. For heavy e-bikes, especially the utility or cargo variety, hydraulic disks are a must.
Good video. Love the comment about the integrated cockpit / aero position. Bang on - your body is the vast majority % of all aero considerations!
Best Bike video I've watched in ages. Very informative. You've helped save me some money!
Great great great video, I can only applaud and press like. I hope many people see this and remember it next time they buy a bike
Stumbled upon your vid and I simply loved it. So rare to have a blunt and honest opinion. I don't think you are winning any of these companies over but I do think there could be room for you as a consultant to help them develop products that actually matters for the people enabling them to make profit at the end of the day (if we ignore the chinese manufacturing and reducing the number of different frames etc....). Can't wait for the next one. Keep it up :)
Gael Chouchelamane thanks for the comments. Welcome to the channel
Great look at the new bike releases.
Like that even as a disc bike rider you acknowledge rim bikes have a place on the road.
Of course. Absolutely love the rim brakes still for 80 percent of the riding they’re beautiful in simplicity.
@@PeakTorque so in the year 2021 living in a flat state I shouldn’t feel bad about buying a 2013(I think?) used cannondale super six evo duraace that has rim brakes? I just really wanted to do a “build” as I enjoy building bikes but couldn’t afford a new frame when I could get a super nice used frame with impeccable duraace group set that looked hardly riden for the same price as a new frame alone. I put 55mm light bicycle clincher carbons on it and was told by many “that was a mistake! You bought clincher carbons from China!?” “You’re asking for trouble”. I’ve spent years dreaming about carbon rims and could t fathom spending several thousands on a set and I just wanted a cool looking bike to give me the placebo of riding harder because I was on a “cool” looking bike. But these manufacture make it so hard bleeding us of money on these obviously well over priced bikes.
Thanks a LOT for this very detailed insight into the bottom bracket topic! Best analysis i have heard yet.🙏🙏🙏
I currently own TCR Advanced 1 Disc 2021 and I have to say that it was an incredible value for the money I've spent on it last year. Not to mention the moment when I had to switch to my winter aluminium bike - difference between night and day. Can't wait for spring to finally ride this beast again!
As a motorcyclist, I’ve been comparing the two for many years. I bought a 600cc sport bike for under $8000 about 15 years ago. Probably around $10k now. Bicycle prices are ridiculous. In bicycling, I think that your best option, as a general weekend warrior, is to buy something that’s at least 3 or 4 years old. Basically a generation behind in frame design. Because chasing the latest design and tech is unreachable for most people. Maybe they should offer a lease program for those that want the latest and greatest. Kind of like the automobile business model. Seems to work like a charm for them.
Same for motorbikes. If you wanted the latest and greatest tech you would be spending hundreds of thousands, if not millions, on the development and manufacturing of custom pieces and prototypes that usually only the pros get.
Somehow having the latest and greatest has become the norm in cycling, so thats why you see those crazy prices being normalized.
Obi-Wan Kenobi Many cyclists, including myself, are vein individuals. And the manufacturers know it. That’s why they market their bikes like a fashion house. Look at Specialized’s wild paint schemes on their Allez. They know that they need to revamp every couple years so that we’re always left wanting. Ever ask your wife why she can’t be seen in public with the same Chanel bag that you bought her last season?
BTW, do you watch MotoGP? I’m wondering if that mad lad Marc Marquez is going to race this weekend and if he does, is he going to wipe the floor after that broken arm just two weeks ago.
Not sure a lease program is required, they know their demographic and they appear to have very large, very stretchy, very deep pockets. I look on with mild interest, while riding a 13-year old Ti bike that once cost somewhere around £3k. I can't imagine replacing it any time soon, especially as I personally wouldn't be noticeably faster on the latest and greatest aero wonder. Think that's the big difference to me - maybe comparing a superbike isn't right (personally don't think motogp fits either as I can still easily see where that £3m goes ahead of a regular bikes) - but even with superbikes or lower it's easy to see what an additional £5-10k gets you in the motorbike world. Personally think the shift to £10k+ road bikes is driven by nothing other than profit margin, rather than a reflection of cutting-edge innovation.
I don’t know, I ride motorcycles myself and it really bugs me when folks compare the price of entry level motorcycle to a top end bicycle. When you look at a fully race prepped 600cc sport bike for the super stock class you’re looking at about $30,000 USD or roughly 3x what it would cost you to buy a road bicycle that the pros race on. I would say a bone stock Yamaha R6 is more comparable to a $3,000 road bicycle. In that both are nearly as fast as their race prepared counter parts, but both will need a huge amount of cash dumped onto them to close that last little bit of performance gap.
Even if a small engineering firm made just one top end end bicycle each year I still don't think it would be worth near £10K. And if you just compare the amount of engineering involved in the construction of a motorcycle (bearing in mind that you can buy a pretty high performance machine for £10K) with all the hundreds of individual components and the abundance of tolerances required in the engine and gearboxes etc, then either motorcycles are incredibly good value or top end cycles are ridiculously overpriced. I love both types of machinery from an engineering perspective but I really struggle to see how some cycles can be those huge prices.
There have been £8000 bikes around for the best part of a decade, I remember some of the high end Supersix’s. They had real bling components made by boutique manufacturers though. They were stunning. I’m thinking 2010-2014.
Bike shop exclusives?
@@Grunge_Cycling No, the superix’s, full Enve finishing kits before they were big and more. USE Alien seatposts etc.
Love your comment at the end about your concerns regarding pricing. Well put together video! Great job.
This was quality. First time I’ve stumbled across your channel (now a subscriber), and it answered SO many of the questions I had as a browser on the new bike market. Also very happy I don’t need to sell my carbon rim brake wheels 😅
Well young man.. best piece of straight talking I've heard in a very long time. Well done 👍
cheers pal
So much sense, backed up with engineering knowledge. 👍🏻
Superb analysis and delivery, as ever PT. Thanks for the time and effort you dedicate to your channel and the videos you put out - you are collecting an avid and growing following no doubt due to the honesty and integrity you bring to the table.
Cheers, A Fellow Engineer
Cheers pal!
Great work. Awesome to hear this perspective.
My giant tcr advanced pro 1 2019 cost 1900 British pounds, mechanical rim brake, is really stiff, light at 7.2kg. just as fast as some bikes costing 5 times the price
I love Giant and colnago bikes 🚲 yep Brakes are only for the coffee shop ☕️ 🤟🎯🤟and Giants are well priced $
2021 GIANT ADV PRO DISC frameset £1349 as opposed to SL7 @ £3750 Comedy pricing from Spesh, absolute comedy.
My 2012 Giant TCR is lovely except the BB is creakier than a geriatric whores knee joint
.
Was that really worth it though? Do you win races a lot?
@@manupasquette4116 ay man I'm only 16 and got it in march just before lockdown so haven't had the chance to race it yet. Don't think anybody who isn't sponsored is making money back on winning races.
Thanks for the reasonable, informed, and professional perspective. Road cycling has largely lost its soul. The cyclist used to be the working class, tough, practical rider who cared more about the ride than the bike.
25yr experienced pro team mechanic here.
This guy knows his stuff. Excellent & very informative for all cyclists.
What consumers must bare in mind is that most brands & manufacturers of such, are totally market driven. There are always progressions, but also regressions within the industry & its for the end consumer (us customers) to use common sense & not get drawn into the blurb of the latest trends.
A trend is exactly that, a trend. For better, worse or no different.
As for the brand GIANT. They're quite possibly the most honest, true & best value brand out there. Not only that, but also of the highest quality & second to none. I ride a GIANT TCR Advanced, bought with my own money.
A last note, read my comment on Chris Froome's recent disc brake UA-cam video. Disc brakes on road bikes are more trouble than they're worth.
Fantastic analysis. Glad to have come across your channel.
i have a 2018 reacto 5000 with the flex seat tube insert and you don't feel the saddle moving on bumps at all, it's just comfy even more than my 2013 leader fox carbtec was (incidentally with threaded BB where the aluminium tube separated from the carbon frame), so no ... there is no such feeling as low radius flex and as you were concerned ... my dad has a giant tcr with 105, i have the reacto 5000 with ultegra now, both for reasonable price and good quality
Agreed, I've got a 2018 Reacto 6000 Disc, 100% with you on the seat post
"Now the old threaded bottom bracket... in my opinion, a well manufactured press fit is far superior. ...you have to remember that the threaded cup that you are threading into your frame has got the bearing pressed into it so why are you replicating that? The only reason you are replicating that is because you are admitting that you can’t make that (press fit) interface to the required accuracy and repeatability. By going back to a threaded bottom bracket, you are basically saying that we don’t have the ability to manufacture this part at this accuracy and repeatability and still maximize our profit... there is no technical reason why it is better.”
Luescher Teknik
ua-cam.com/video/aQ5aNlfRBr4/v-deo.html
Absolutely loved this one! Always good, this one is brilliant. 🙌
UA-cam recommended me this video and was not disappointed. You definitely seem toknow what you're talking about! And good on you for doing research toback up your claim and owning up to it. Takes a strong character to do that.
Thank you
My BMC Roadmachine uses a PF86 BB and, touch wood, it spins almost as well as those hambini spin tests with a standard Shimano press fit bb. Sad that something working as it should be feels like an exception.
Mine is perfect as well
Yeah it’s a lot of hoopla over making 2 concentric round holes. This is the kind of engineering we trust railing down a mountain at 50+mph
3 word to sum the problems you listed..
MAR KE TING...
And I like it...
This was a really really good video, thoroughly enjoyed both the content and presenting style.
Peak Truth and the nice Giant recommendations still hold. Well done! 👏🏼
This dude knows so much about bikes that I know in my life about pretty much everything else
I think the TCR is the best of the new bunch
By a long way as well
Absolutely! Ill take a $3500 before any $1,100 Trek or Specialized
Done my due diligence n ended up with a new TCR Adv Pro 0 in the beautiful blue colour to replace my '16 Defy. Wouldn't have anything else.
Very interesting overview of the bike industry. Keep these videos coming please! Well done.
The list price of the top of the range s works tarmac is $18000 AUD here in Australia. That is 1000cc superbike territory. Totally agree about the necessity of disk brakes and would love to be able to buy a new giant TCR with rim brakes. Unfortunately Giant Australia, in their wisdom, don't include a rim brake TCR in their lineup.
Perfectly said, this whole discs brake bikes only is totaly wrong. I am buying rim brake tcr for next year and thats it for me for a long time. This whole marketing in bike industry is nonsense. If UCI would lower the weight limit to 6kg than we would see no disc brake bikes in peloton. Now you have to spend 4000-5000€ on 8,0kg bike that is crazy. Hope manufacturers will see big decline in their sales of new disc brake bikes
I think there are things more important to amateurs than weight. I appreciate the innovation that the weight limit has allowed. If the weight limit were 6kg or less, bikes today would look a lot like bikes from 10 years ago, just lighter.
I am eagerly anticipating a new Venge, which will probably break UCI rules and be significantly heavier than 6.8kg even in top trim
@@404nobrakes venge just got binned
If anyone dares dislike this video you must acknowledge your vested interest in a) your ridiculously overpriced frame. B) your willingness to lap up marketing bs c) your privilege in being able to grossly overspend on your hobby. Signed a pinarello f10 rim brake owner 😝😝😝
I own a very expensive bike as well. I love it but am more than willing to admit prices have become absolutely stupid.
The bike on the wall is reasonably expensive and i do feel like a tit riding it. But, i paid bottom dollar/discount for the parts and most of them are old parts!
Peak Torque and it’s possibly the cheapest high end frame going! I would love one also but that isp and oversized steerer are immediate barriers
Overspending on a hobby is an opportunity earned, not privilege. Most wealth is self made:)
barebare needn’t I remind you that we are not in an equal world where everybody is given the same opportunity - you are born of a class and you are most likely to continue in it. The working class do not have the same access to education or contacts that will improve their chances of being successful and the doors open to them are significantly fewer in number. The upper class has the access to education and contacts that ease their pathway into higher paying careers. I’m the first to go to university in my family, I did not have my mother or father’s expertise in becoming a medic, a lawyer and so on to think that I could apply myself to those avenues or do so off my own back. It’s not impossible but my argument and anecdotal evidence is attempting to explain why it is not truly earned as you say, and it is not true that most wealth is self made. I’d be interested to understand your definition of self made - working classes are significantly less likely to or be able to invest in financial products or property and so on, given the ceiling for profitable entry. This wealth that is often found amongst middle and upper classes is made not on the toiling time of a worker but rather the money making more money in itself. Finally I must add that whereas skilled labour such as a surgeon is of course highly paid for their expertise and handiwork, it is a slippery slope to say that retail staff (of which I am along my studies) a janitor, or waste collectors do not work as hard as a surgeon - given that a spend 8 or more hours 5 or more days a week doing their profession. Many higher paid jobs require less physical labour but more mental strain. Who values the expense of ones time? Of course, lawyers in firms are to work long hours in their training contracts and the sheer volume of hours spent under pressure is paid for handsomely by their employers. Irrespective of this I would be at odds to say they work 3-4x as hard with their time as any of my previous examples do and thus should earn 3-4x as much, or significantly more like in the United States (10x, 20x as much). I hope I have offered significant insight into why overspending on a hobby is not an opportunity earned but rather enshrined in privilege even if their is a hard working aspect entailed.
How refreshing to hear a non BS presentation on bike design these days. I am glad I got out of the industry 15 years ago, as I don’t think my (IMO) common sense pragmatism would allow me compete with all the marketing hype these days.
And I was only crafting custom made steel road frames for individual clients. Also, big 👍👍 for giving rim brakes a shout out. Thank you.
Excellent! Thanks for the engineering analysis, and to confort me with my rim brake TCR !
I've not watched it yet... but I'm a firm believer in Betteridge's law of headlines...
Betteridge's law of headlines did not disappoint! (For those who don't know, it basically says any headline that contains a question, the answer will be 'no'.)
@@ChinaCycling And you can tell without reading. It won't answer the question is usually the case. (Otherwise it wouldn't be formed as one.)
I had to look that one up Joe. Not as cultured as you 😅
awesome love the unbiased opinion!
You are an asset to the increasingly advertiser-lead world of YT (and SM in general). You did a great job of making me see sense through all the SL7 hype that had got me very precariously perched on the edge of my credit card (for which my wife sends you her thanks!). But you ARE right: if you have that money to spend, don't spend it on a top end push bike... but something that's actually 'worth' the money. Your reasoning behind your critiques is very down to earth, and helps us not run away with the enthusiasm that gets whipped up by the manufacturers' PR machines (aka YT channels) that regurgitate what they've been told to. Thank you, and keep up with the truthful, extremely interesting content that you deliver us on your YT channel. 👏👍
Thank you Nigel, means a lot!
Fantastic content! Thanks, PT.
Bikes are expensive because rich people ride them, they’re like watches, golf clubs & other luxurious things!
Not necessarily rich people. The everyday person can afford a $7000 Tarmac SL7 pro (Ultegra Di2) if they feel they enjoy the hobby enough and ride enough to make it worth while. You could easily spent that much if you were into sailing, hunting, fishing, golfing, off-roading, motocross, etc. Saying that only rich people ride expensive bike is totally oblivious to serious riders who put their time and devotion into the sport/hobby.
You never see them out riding , i ride my bike every day it's tatty ,but used
Boss 302 I said that bikes are expensive because there is a market for them, I didn’t say only rich people ride expensive bikes. 7K to splash on a bike is expensive. Take into consideration shoes, kit & other accessories as well as the continual up keep, and that 7K stretches into nearly 5 digits. So yes, bikes are bought by people who have a lot of disposable income & people with a lot of disposable income, aka, rich people, like to ride bikes. So yes, bikes are expensive because people keep paying too much for them. 18K for an S-Works & 16K for an Emonda SLR 9 is ridiculous. If you buy one & you don’t have a lot of money, I’d call you stupid because no matter how keen you are that’s not a smart investment. In the end, people like me get burnt because 7K for a Ultegra spec’d bike is ridiculous in its own right.
AG Coarseman only if you can afford it, how’s an avid cyclist on a middle to low income going to afford a mid-ranges bike at around 7k to continue riding & racing? Bike are becoming stupidly expensive.
@@an_rc_guy8256 i disagree. you can justify the price but if you're on a low income job it does not matter whether you love road racing or not. You MUST have a decent income to spend 7k$+ on a bike.
Good news is: you dont need to. even as cat2-cat1 racer you can do well riding a second hand built or a hong fu for a fraction of the money.
No bike is worth that much money regardless of brand. You gotta be a pro rider, or a professional making 6 figures without common sense.
So what bike would you recommend that is light, fast and also built to last?
@@solefreak2 just buy used ones, you can find amazing deals on road bikes that are only a few years old for a fraction of their original price
Prob something like parlee or 51 cycles
@@solefreak2 used bikes my man. High end bikes devalue like new BMWs rolling off the lot.
@@Einhander49 What would make a good used purchase, I like the look of the Specialized Tarmac SL6 but they still expensive used.
Appreciated info, unbiased, we need more explanations like this. I'm tired of the false marketing.
Subscribed, very educational videos and so nice to hear about bikes and tech from someone without an agenda. No marketing BS, it's refreshing. I totally agree, if you've got 10k to spend on a road push bike, don't spend it, spend the money on something worth 10k. The bike industry is making perfectly good technology obsolete and ramping up the prices when it's just greed. I've got a 2008 Specialized Tarmac SL with rim brakes and mechanical groupset and it's perfect for me, I'd never change it because I'm not a great cyclist so anything more than that would be a waste and spending 10k on a push bike is insane.
Shit compaction loads of voids - love it! 😂
SCLV 1000™️
Saurabh Kulkarni get down the copyright office now!
SCLV 1000 is made of Cheese Whizz with carbon flakes sprinkled over polyester resin!
I still can't forgive Trek for buying up Klein in the mid '90s and slowly killing off the brand name. Klein were probably the first MTB company to make aluminium frames that didn't just snap at random due to fatigue issues, in no small part thanks to Gary Klein's stint at MIT. Trek were gluing their aluminium frames into lugs (badly) with 'aerospace' adhesive before they bought Klein. Sadly Trek's welded frames were still unreliable even afterwards, so they probably didn't have anyone who understood what Klein told them about how to make good frames when the IP was being transferred.
The good thing with Trek is that, apart from one bike shop owner who literally denied that fatigue failures existed at all after being presented with an absolutely textbook version of this failure type, where the headtube of my frame detached completely from the rest of it, once I got around him, claiming warranties for snapped frames from Trek themselves was and is pretty straightforward. Every single Trek I and my friends rode in the late '90s and early 2000s snapped (We stopped buying them after that - Giant were massively more reliable and cheaper).
seems like were gonna go back to threaded BBs and then in a few years go to press fit again and have it called new tech and have all the marketing about how it beats threaded again
Of course. Marketing will hype every change to the max because there is so little to differentiate bikes.
Next up in a few years: "NEW 26" Mountain Bike Wheel Technology!"
Wait for it...
I'd say that all of the points that you have said in this video are spot on 👌. Especially with the rim brake vs disc brake topic and threaded vs PF topic. I also think that the bike industry is going in circles in terms of engineering. Keep up the great videos man!
An awesome review thanks iv got a Trek Madone 5.9 with rim brakes and its amazing.
Threaded BB means average Joe can maintain, repair etc the BB. For most this is probably way more important than the gains from press fit.
True but a pf86 BB in a well made frame lasts for ages, and hardly ever needs replacing!
@@PeakTorque It is still one step more to fail than threads in metal. Holds true even if it is welded steel to steel insert.
all the folks I know with the top bikes hardly know how to put the chain back on if they drop it, never mind wrenching for themselves.
How difficult is it to install a pf bb with a press (or hammer and block of wood if you’re a mountainbiker)?
Do you see other manufacturers following Specialized in merging their leightweight and aero top end race bikes (ex: SuperSix and SystemSix or Ultimate and Aeroad)? The pricing on some of the bikes in indeed crazy. Here in the UK if looking to spend £1500-2500 it just seems crazy to buy anything else than a Giant or a Canyon.
Build your own the way you like it. Buy a cheap unbranded Chinese frame and build it. It will be 3 times cheaper, custom built by/for you and will perform much better. It's just a bike not an airplane....
Lots of knowledge! Great job, mate!
Great unbiased review, well presented, subscribed!
Please someone give me the strength not to cry when Merida gets absorbed by one of those goon corps that are ruining the bike itself for a slight bump in profit...
We almost lost Time this year already, hope the new management won't fuck it up (or if they do that it doesn't go too bad), same goes with Mavic which has just been saved from the hands of crooks who legally pocketed millions in the process, those bastards, and has a ton of work to do to get back to building quality stuff and stop themselves from ever reverting to baffling scams such as those carbon wheels marketed as the aero shizz with freakin holes the size of a presta cap around every spoke.... Worried about Look as well...
What happened with the Mavic deal?!
@@PeakTorque It was bought back from an obscure hedge funds (you know, one of those not shady at all ones that just so happened to have its address in Delaware...) It was so bad than even people working for the Amer group (Salomon) its previous main shareholder could not be certain to who exactly Mavic had been sold to anymore. Crazy shit.
But skies have cleared, Mavic is now owned by the Bourrelier Group a family held fund that was mostly known for the creation & former ownership of a brand of home improvement stores (Bricorama) in France with entities in Spain, Blegium & the Netherlands as well. They've managed to keep over half of the previous employees and are set to refocus the brand around the production of everything wheel related (so no more clothing, shoes etc I guess). They also claim they want to refresh and boost the R&D office and update the tooling & production facilities as soon as possible. They seem solid, but let's not get our hopes up too high.
Merida absorbed? - are you sure. They own 49% of Specialized.
@@NeilXDavis I wasn't providing any info here, was just joking. The bike industry is a very lucrative market and the pandemic has made it top of the hype. Even Ducati is building bikes now (ugly ones but still ^^). Merida & Giant are the two solid corps out of Taïwan, doesn't make them safe from greedy investors forever though... And Specialized...don't know how much of an influence that Merida shareholding has on their decision making, there are things they do that one can only love and/or admire and other stuff gosh...what a bunch of pricks they can turn into, they once sued a small bike shop for the use of the word Roubaix (for which they didn't even have the trademark rights in the first place...)
I've got a TCR advanced sl with t800 carbon from 2011! It's not new at all!
Fantastic vid, agree with absolutely everything you say so succintly. Happy to show you around Mallorca if you're ever here....!
Hello! Sorry for late reply. Im normally in Pollença every Jan. First year not there in ages. Shocker. Hope you're well.
That was fantastic to watch! Thank you for making this video!
I have found it baffling how bike prices have gone up so high, and how much top-tier groupsets and frames are pushed by bicycle outlets and manufacturers nowadays. I have not known about bicycling for ages as I only got into bicycling seriously about a year and a half ago as an enthusiast (no racing), but it still made me amazed by how hard things are marketed, and how expensive they can get.
I bought a Trek Domane AL 3 (aluminum with carbon fork, and Sora groupset (minus the brakes)) with rim brakes, and I have been immensely happy with it. I was thinking what I would buy should I buy a new bike and I thought that a carbon bike with a 105 or an Ultegra groupset at most would be enough, and that went from about $1,300 CAD for the Domane, to about $3,500 CAD for an Emonda-like bike. I have considered the volumes and prices of other products - including motorcycles, as I have been interested in them for years - and to see something with precision tolerances with electronics; spinning, complex masses; and special alloys used to create incredible machines capable of propelling a person very quickly for similar prices to medium- and high-end bicycles perplexed me. I also found the idea of trouble making bottom bracket fittings nuts, too! (I am no engineer, by the way, but it certainly made sense with my rudimentary knowledge.)
Anyhow, thanks again! Educational videos like these are some of the best things out there for making informed decisions about things, and for learning about how things work on a fundamental, but technical level (as opposed to talking about how disc brakes work, or which derailleur someone should choose for their chosen gearset), and I really appreciate what it taught me! These videos are truly invaluable, and I hope to see more videos like these in the future - from you, or someone else (no pressure).
i was asking myself the same thing. even if i had $12k burning a hole in my pocket, i wouldn't give it to these bike brands. in my opinion, no bike is worth half that cost. it's a BICYCLE - the technology is so marginally indifferent that the normal joe couldn't tell you the difference in bikes 10 years apart.
When you’ve bought a couple of Ducati’s, hondas and a KTM all new for less than £9k it’s never going to compute to buy a bicycle for more than a couple of grand. I understand the volume / cost issue but when you look at the manufacturing quality and detail of the motorcycles it’s insane to expect to pay so much for bicycles.
@@yeknommonkey exactly...it's motogp technology at it's highest level being passed down to the chain to consumers and these bicycle manufactures are on the same level with their pricing lol - it's a joke.
Even cycling is fast becoming a rich person's hobby!
Depends on the type of cycling you do. Competitive cycling has been expensive since the dawn of time. As for out of shape amateurs, the cheaper the bike, the better the workout.
Tbh a top end bike from the '80 was expensive, but not insane like today's.
@@Bugumir this is objectively false, a watt is a watt on an sl7 or an old fixie. for the same speed it's more work on the old bike for sure, but you're not going as fast as an sl7 on a cheaper bike.
@@petersagan3158 outside of actual racing, speed is only a byproduct. For anything outside of that, be it fun, weight loss or training, an SL7 is an exorbitant waste of money, in my opinion.
Just found it and absolutely brilliant analysis! Subscribed...
I have a 10 year old Scott team bike, cost me about 1400$, original shimano 105. Any lack of performance is still not the bikes fault. This was a great vid.
Giant, every time.
Agree. When theyre in stock. And they wont take orders at all (Australia) to gurantee stock or ensure manufacturing continuity.
Dylan Newton I work at a giant shop, none of the giant dealers can order bikes at the moment, they’re being allocated to the different shops. Giant have the best value for money but the prices are still rising
Marcel R. It’s a poor business model not being able to guarantee customer satisfaction. I had cash to put down a deposit to ensure a product yet was told first in best dressed once stock arrives. Utterly ridiculous.
Dylan Newton No rim brake models brought into Aus either (other than SL)
Dylan Newton that would be the shops fault not giants fault, giant shops are not connected they are all independent bike dealers, at my shop we only take deposits once we have the bike and if the bike is out of stock we have a waiting list and call the people in order. We can’t order in bikes at the moment due to the corona virus causing everything to be out of stock
I had my eye on a canyon aeroad a few years back. I wanted etap and hydraulics, so I waited because at that point it didn’t exist. 12 months later, it arrived....
I bought a brand new motorcycle instead.
All they do is pour money into R&D and only get minute gains from it, but want you to reimburse their fucking waste of money. Nope!
Excellent video. Great analysis of the engineering, economics of manufacture, and market failures leading to highly exagerated costs.
Thank you
Thank you for sharing your expertise on the subject. I really enjoy your videos. I especially like how forthright you are on engineering inadequacies in the industry. Specific to this video, I completely agree with you regarding Press Fit Bottom Brackets being superior. I have a Giant with a PF BB86 BB, and it works really well.
They all coming out of the same OEM factories in China...
You sometimes i think the same. The companies say some bikes are manufactured i Taiwan not all the bikes. I don't think so. By the way, sometimes i watch your vídeos.
As per usual you are right Harley. Problem is people believe the marketing and they all want to have the bikes the pro riders use, the brand name is everything!. Marketing teams know Muppets will pay the cost lol!.
True .snap on and mac and Draper tools etc all made in the same factory just named different and priced pathetically. Same with bikes .vape products. Its a scam
That doesn't mean every bike coming out of those factories is built exactly the same. The OEMs build the frame to spec and budget that the customer defines, and a top tier s-works will be built to a different spec and budget than an entry level carbon frame from a small manufacturer.
They're being back doored on the night shift i reckon you see a run of 'fakes' on certain Asian sites for a limited run.
Instantly subscribed after seeing one of your videos
99% of us its passion and vanity that decides what you buy. Good review again
Great video. Good to see you and Hambini have a similar contempt for bike industry engineers and both believe in companies who vertically integrate.
OCLV was stickered on the frame back in the USP days of Armstrong. Excellent review.
Thank you for this excellent, well considered and unbiased assessment of the high end of the bike industry. The bottom line is great news for those who want a good bike to race or just train on. The disappointing part is that as in the past, many of the questionable bike design decisions that you identified are clearly dictated by marketing departments. Some things never change.
Awesome content. New subscriber after first 5 mins of this video.
always interesting to hear your thoughts on new bikes, added with your industry insights and with giving a broader perspective. great, thanks, more please 😃👍. ...I absolutely agree with your recommendation, I like the TCR, and rimbrakes are just fine for many of us. unfortunately the TCR’s geometry is not for me ( I am not flexible enough, and I don‘t like 4+ cm spacer towers on the headtube). anyways. cheers✌️
Very nice summation, thanks. It should be interesting to see what happens in 2021. There are a lot of factors that are drying up people's slush funds for top end bikes.
Well presented, technically accurate and intelligent - refreshing - I've subscribed!
Great channel, just found it. On the bike vs. motorcycle question, the best explanation for the ridiculous prices I've heard (and I can't find it or I'd give some credit but I believe it was on another UA-cam channel and was talking mountain bikes vs. dirt bikes, but same principles apply) is that we're comparing the top end bicycle models to the basic consumer motorcycles/dirt bikes. The top end bicycles are going to have a lot of tech and composite materials in them because weight, stiffness, compliance, etc. are all delicately balanced using a lot of engineering and 'cutting edge' technology which is going to be more expensive. Meanwhile, the typical motorcycle and/or dirt bike might have some of that, but doesn't have the same weight concerns, etc. because it's got a motor and just needs to be good enough, so they can get more stiffness just using cast aluminum or whatever reasonably basic/affordable methods needed without much engineering. However, if you compared top of the line racing motorcycles with the top of the line bicycles, the motorcycle's probably going to be much more expensive because it now is using all the same types of materials/technologies to get a slight advantage that the top of the line bikes are using.
I'm sure that's not the entire explanation (and I'm sure the companies are ridiculously up charging us where the market will allow because all of the friggin dentists who don't care about costs will buy it anyways), but like I said, this made the most sense to me - that essentially we're not comparing apples to apples and it doesn't have much to do with volume and much more to do with the technologies and materials being used in top of the line models vs. basic models.
Very insightful and useful video - highly recommended. I will definitely check out more of his videos.
@peak torque, interesting content and well presented, as always. Please keep it coming and we'll be watching.
Nice! Glad I got my TCR Advanced! Im lookign forward to upgrading the wheels though. Thinking of going the same as you have there!
100% , couldn't agree more. Keep up the great work 👍🍻
I'll hang onto my inferior rim braked 6.3kg steed until death do us part 😂
Subscribed, very informative channel!
Good content, friend, and plenty of interesting points made.
Fantastic. Glad i found your channel
Just stumbled upon your chanel, great content!!
I subscribed because you make all sense. Keep it up!