Fork Steerer Failure - Recent Crash
Вставка
- Опубліковано 19 вер 2019
- This video came about after being asked about the recent crash in a race caused by complete steerer failure, here is a link
/ 1
Further discussion on the topic linked below, although as you can see there may have been a flaw in the steerer that contributed to the failure, not just a use problem.
road.cc/content/news/266662-s...
On this channel we show marketing free, real information about the bikes that you ride.
www.luescherteknik.com.au
www.insidecarbonbikes.com
#insidecarbonbikes - Спорт
Hi Raoul, I’ve been in denial about the state of my steerer for some time. I told myself it was okay, even though I was pretty sure that, owing to the fact I had not used a torque wrench, I had, and continued to over tighten the stem bolts, damaging the carbon.
Watching your video this morning was definitely a wake up call.
I took the fork out and checked it. There is a vertical 2 inch crack all the way through the laminate at the top of the steerer, and also horizontal damage. Crushing damage. I’ve been riding around like that for who knows how long. It was a death trap.
No matter how many times I’ve heard mechanics/technicians, including yourself, on countless videos telling me to use a torque wrench, and not to over tighten, I ignored it.
I’m clearly a moron, and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to make this video 👍🏼
New forks are on order. I will also buy a torque wrench.
Dan Golding - and use the friction compound.
Also watch Raoul's video on insert plugs and use a good one. I invested a lot of effort into picking one that should support the steerer properly against the clamping force of the stem. Won't say which one I picked, since I'm not entirely happy with it.
@@robertp7209 The general advice is to NOT use friction compound on the steerer as it contains particles which will degrade the laminate over time. If anyone can clarify this then that would be useful.
@@horrovac Cheers! Yes, I have a proper 2in expander plug/bung which functions perfectly. My issue has been caused due to over tightening, the system itself is sound.
Dan Golding - the frame of my bike and balance of components (stem, seat tube, bars) manufacturers written instructions in the assembly procedure call for it and where to be applied including seat tube and handlebars. And handlebars are alum to alum stem. A tube of the compound is provided by same manufacturer, as well as the max torque specs. Lastly, the steerer will not stay in place by torquing alone. I will not exceed those specs, don’t even want to approach them.
Welcome back Raoul.
Another brilliant video.
Thanks again. Your videos/comments compelled me to take a carbon steerer tube issue to the manufacturer which got them to promptly say "yeah that doesn't look good we better get that back right away" after the LBS I bought it from had said "that's fine". Never went to that LBS again.
Great to see you back with a new video here on youtube Raul.
One thing is people failing to use a torque wrench when tightening, but the manufacturing faults/lack of QC are simply disgraceful.
It puzzles me how even top brand expensive frames can have such catastrophic faults.
As you have shown plenty of times in the past, the bike industry needs to up their game and stop gamling with peoples lives.
a lot of bike mechanics don´t use a torque wrench. they claim to have a "feeling for it" yeah sure you nail 4-6 Nm max. all the time on these tiny screws.
These manufacturers are putting profit above QC, just watch Hambini’s video on Cervelo BB tolerances. Shameful!
Uff, that video is eyeopening
While I agree about the Hambini video, Cervelo is actually one of the manufacturers which do the fork steerer insert properly; it is glued in to the steerer with a sleeve, which is also long enough for the stem to clamp around it fully... Most manufacturers just do a compression plug or something similar which is not sufficient IMO.
@@rkan2 the cervelo sleeve isnt long enough, i lowered my stem to be slammed and the bike shop had to hammer the sleeve lower
@@mikes1984 It is long enough to support the full height of a stem. Whether it supports your your stem being lowered after first being glued in is another thing completely. It is recommended in the owner manual to glue the insert in the correct position...
rkan2 well i can’t verify that or not, but i have had two Cervelo’s and the finish is poor, the cable routing is also bad, so make sure you use electric shifting. for what you pay, there are poor quality for the money.
Thanks for weighing in on this incident. It's a great teaching moment. And, an opportunity to expose the myths about carbon fiber.
Thank you so much! You are an invaluable voice in biking!
Actually the brakes still worked. The guy had the rear wheel locked up even after ‘separation’. Heroic effort to save it. Thanks for the video.
Good to see you Raoul. I just repaired loose headset bearing seat play on my spare bike. Luckily nò damage from the ring. The top if the steerer us critical moreso than the bottom due to radial loading.
Very useful as was "Quicktips - Fork steerer compression plugs" Overtightened stems/compression plugs & slamming stems but not cutting steerers sounds a common thing? Keep up the great videos!
I've come back to watching you after watching Cam Nichols video in which you talk about some wheel failures. The more I watch you (and Hambini) the more scared I get about the lack of quality control on bikes. Currently riding an aluminium bike with the only carbon bits being the seatpost AND forks.
Welcome back, ride safe.
I will stick with my alu road bike which has a steel fork. It's a bit heavier (11.4 kg) but hassle-free. And it needs almost no maintenance or torque wrench. Carbon bikes are overvalued and overpriced.
you are never safe. dude died after alloy steerer failure cyclingtips.com/2016/12/after-the-death-of-a-canberra-cyclist-should-you-be-concerned-about-catastrophic-fork-failure/
correct, but even finding an aluminum or steel frame that is well done, is not easy to do either
Thank you for your video. I was about to buy a carbon fiber fork for my road bike but will go with aluminum. 250 grams is not worth the hassle
My headset made these terrible cracking noises. It wasn't the cables. It sounded and felt like serious damage. Like a piece of frame or steerer tube had broken off, and got caught inside. I took out the front fork and i was relieved to find it was undamaged. The headset was more mud and sand than anything else though. I cleaned it, and the cracking had gone. New headset is on order.
Because of this video, i'm going to remove the spacer above my stem, have the steerer cut. And check the fork regularly, even if everything seems fine.
Any recommendation for non carbon fork replacement? My fixed gear came with carbon fork but I want to remove it since I suspect a small crack by the bottom headset bearing
How many good forks have you scanned?
great question...
Thanks for the video. So what’s the answer? Every time you buy a bike, have it scanned and do the QC the manufacturer should have done before they shipped the bike for sale? And then have scans again every certain number of riding hours? Seems an odd state of affairs. Hard to think of another industry where end user safety is in issue, where adequate QC is not undertaken by the manufacturer. Are bike manufacturers not concerned or currently taking steps to address the legal exposure they have in this area? How can we find out which manufacturers are undertaking the required QC on frames and forks pre sale? As others have noted, buying a new carbon bike over the past 10 years does seem to have a “roulette” aspect to it.
S Ward it is because the bike industry is not regulated like car motorcycle industry, UCI is the only requirements plus reflectors etc. for sale rules in your country.
So they get away with a lot.
Yup, I've said this many times in bike forums and FB cycling groups but have always been shouted down by the CF bike zealots. CF bikes are not meant for the average joe but bike companies are marketing these expensive light weight bikes to consumers because the average joe wants to ride what their favourite pro rider rides (so that they can ride from cafe to cafe showing off their ride). There is a certain amount of constant care and maintenance that is required for CF bikes and this is usually ignored by these amateurs. The pros get new bikes each season, the average joe rides their bikes for years. On top of that, the CF sheets are hand laid by workers in developing countries sometimes unregulated conditions. Even Canyon, that boasts that they x-ray each bike they build has faults in their fork - see video. Why risk life and limb so that you can show off to your buddies that you ride what the pros do?
@@triode1212 I don't really think that is the point here, "who they are for" if a product is sold as a consumer product, I.e. off the self product, it should be fit for purpose. At these prices the quality control should be industry best, but it isn't! I do believe that is the point being made here. Who decides to buy and ride them is irrelevant to quality standards
@@waynosfotos I accept you point but even with the best quality control, mishandling by inexperienced mechanics and owners, plus the inevitable collisions/falls. will cause micro fractures which can lead to eventual failure of CF fork, frame. And I don't think it would be cost effective to test each and every frame of the thousands that the manufacturer builds - it would add considerable cost to the cost of each frame. Also a lot of the manufacture is farmed out to subcontractors (esp when the company needs to fill a large order) . Do these smaller shops/subcontractors have the same quality standards? Can they even afford the testing machines. CF is a great material but it has it's limitations and it is not for the average joe who will be keeping it for years.
It seems odd. This guy seems a bit odd. He makes money when people come in to get their equipment inspected. I mean is he trying to inspect every bike in the world? Is there some sort of carbon scanning community across the world for people to get their steerers scanned? I mean what is going on here?
Canyon's X-ray system will probably show all the voids, but many get ignored to keep cost down. Sure, they will discard totally broken parts that would fail in the warranty period, but have no reason to go further. I feel like these will never get resolved unless better carbon construction is mandated by law, like it is in the aerospace industry.
correct. And watch how they raise the cost even more so. The cartel is strong.
I do have a question that is somehow related to cutting CF steerers... can I do it using a dremel rotary tool? Would that be a way to speed it up and ? I would use A foam spray to keep the carbon dust down .. but I doubt the foam would stay in place with a dremel...
A do have the Carbon specific blade from unior and Park tool too.. but it takes time if I do it repeatedly multiple time per days .
Is a longer bung expander preventive in steerer being ripped of?
Some years ago when I heard of steerfailures on carbon forks, I reinforced mine - at least I think. Made round inserts of wood, carefully adapted them - in full length - to the inner of the steers and glued them in with some epoxy glue (Araldit). Good or bad idea - or just waste of time? Like your videos - always good to hear people talk about things, they know about!
Bad idea. It changes the location of peak forces and it’s likely not designed/tested to have the set of forces you’re creating.
Carbon wood fibre 😂
On the fork where there was a crack down the back and crack horizontally near the top of the fork, how do you think that horizontal crack formed? My fork has a crack like that. I might have been over tightened on from when I crashed a couple months ago.
What are your thoughts on carbon forks with an aluminum steerer tube? Something like a Ritchey Comp fork for example. Is that a more durable setup?
Yes, an aluminum steerer doesn't share the danger like carbon.
Please do the Chinarello cut up, can't wait !!!!
Do you do any carbon mtb parts/frames and do you find similarities in terms of faults..
When you say about the ring barking is that a dangerous fault a lot of bikes seem to have the same thing? Mine is exactly the same should I completely change it?
Raul I think I remember you saying full carbon forks are better if made and serviced right,. This is looking like a high rate of failure or possible failure depending on where you draw the line. Do you recommend semi- annual scan or "life of" replacement on frame set? I think I like my odds better with alloy steer and crown.
Can one use carbon bonding to add support for the steerer tube and possibly to extend the length of the tube. Ignoring the excess weight from epoxy resin and additional carbon material will using standard industry bonding techniques add strength to the steerer tube so one does not need to find someone to x-ray it.
Which ultrasound equipment do you use to scan carbon forks? What frequencies and mode do you use?
Looks like we’re screwed what ever manufacturer we choose. Which is the best out of a bad lot?
So glad I found your video, thank you! Just spotted a crack at the back of my carbon steerer about and inch long, also visible inside the steerer! Hells bells 😳
Glad you spotted it before it failed.
I am curious to know if there is more of this happening in the European bikes vs North America. In the USA and Canada we have some terrible roads beaten by long winters. These bumpy pot hole roads will transfer the shocks up the carbon frame and the fork, which with severe shock will stress the carbon layers and cause a failure. I know Southern European roads are less beaten by winter and don't have 6 months of Winter contracting it. Just wondering if the roads are dooming some of these frames and forks. I always do a coin tap check on my Sava Carbon bike before I ride it. It's a standard sound check that is very useful and could save you from a bad crash just down the road. The Sava is T800 but much heavier than other carbon frames, as the feel of the frame is solid.
I appreciate you are a busy guy and putting out videos is probably a tertiary priority. After having watched several of your videos and videos you have appeared in from other UA-camrs, is there anything going on to bring manufacturers into line. Have you reported your findings to some form of trading standards or eqivelent in your country? The status quo cannot be tolerated when these parts are potentially life threatening.
What do you think of carbon forks with alloy steerer ?
It's clear that these carbon steerer tubes need a bonded aluminum insert/sleeve all the way through for safety purposes, even if it sacrifices a little weight savings. Clearly there are manufacturing problems/processes that cannot be resolved. Looking at this right now, and I'm in the middle of building my first full carbon bike. Not a good feeling. I'm using the recommended specialized expansion plug in the streerer as recommended by this channel (thanks for that), and using a good torque wrench.
Is there any substance to the low void claim for Trek’s OCLV carbon?
I had my steerer fail while pulling away from a stop light - fortunately I was at barely above walking speed when the handlebars separated & was able to pull over & get out of traffic safely. It was an aluminum steerer that I used a torque wrench with. Fuji refused to warranty it, saying that it was user error but I never overtightened it having always used a torque wrench. My theory is that I ran about 30-35 mm of spacers on top of the stem (slammed) the entire 2 years I rode the bike and is it possible that the stresses of having that much spacers above the stem contributed to cracking & the failure of the steerer? I now will cut steerers when I get my position dialed on any future bike so that I only have 10mm of steerer above.
Sounds like you were lucky!
Great video. Clearly the current method used for carbon bike manufacturing is too unreliable to make them a viable purchase for the majority of people. Without each component passing a ultrasound inspection with certified results you could be spending £10k on a dud. Likewise if the bike is assembled before purchase and the torque wrench used is out of calibration you've again got a possible dud. Poorly designed fork steerer inserts etc etc. Appalling design, quality control and total disregard for the customer.
Perhaps someone will come up with a pourable material to turn the stem solid. Very common materials in boat building use can be applied. I would use polyester resins with glass fibers and silica. Low cost too. 5 minute job, fully cures in 2 days. Can add a threaded female insert for the bolt into the pour. Good luck trying to crush it then, or sheer it off. That expander plug design is useless as a reinforcement, seems intended only for taking up the bearing play.
While not foolproof, i still try and avoid a carbon steerer. Sadly my tcr has a carbon post which i dont like (esp bulging a di2 battery holder into as well). Had an easton post on prev bike crack 80% around. I almost went on a recovery ride but i had to pick bike up over something in the house and the seat moved. Thats when i found it. I had just done a TT then road race back to back days. Full failure on any of those ride couldve equalled my end. I do not run carbon stems after i had an easton fail on ride #1 thus a crash when the bars dropped. It hurt the bar too much for my comfort so i tend to avoid carbon bars as well. Previous bike had ‘carbon bars and stem’ but they were carbon skinned alu that served just fine. Skittish times. -U10
Do you work on other materials besides carbon?
Lots of audio breakup seeming to be from two different recording devices. One of them needs a bit of work.
I just bought a Cannondale with a carbon steer tube. I wonder if I should get rid of the bike. And the bike shop never uses a torque wrench for anything. Still, there are millions of them out there.
It would be interesting to see the analysis of a fork that actually catastrophically failed in use, and the root cause. Like the one you referred to. I’m sure the manufacturer’s engineers to cover the design will say a safety margin is applied by means of overbuild and is more than adequate to cover the lost strength with limited voids spread out not concentrated, and is a more cost effective way to manufacture it. A good defense will be it was over torqued or overloaded (?). The forensic analysis will be the bottom line. I wonder how many dirt cheap bikes including ones from Walmart sustain totally failed forks from other than plowing into a wall, I bet none.
It was off a Trek frame and a bonded fork that failed. Involved in prior crash and not replaced. The alloy fatigued and failed. Another case was the rider using a fork that had spacers above the stem and NOT a long enough steerer plug to go beyond the bottom stem bolt which resulted in a crushed carbon steerer and eventually a fail.
@@DurianriderCyclingTips you are making things up.. where are the sources of the information you are stating? all of the sudden you are an expert on the subject.. have you ever worked in the industry??? i don't think so...
If there is nobody in my area to do a scan is there anything an average consumer can do?
Worry
DaaaveO1971 thanks for the tip
Pick a good compression plug and meticulously tighten the stem to proper torque. If it's 5Nm, first tighten the bolts so they loosely clamp, then tighten to 4Nm, then to 4.5Nm, then to 5, always alternating between the bolts (even after one bolt has tripped the wrench, after you tighten the other bolt, this one will move a little bit). Listen for cracks, if you hear anything like a stick of wood cracking, that's bad. Otherwise, don't worry too much, it's probably fine.
After you've installed it, pick a safe spot where you can fall safely, and sprint out of the saddle as hard as you can, making sure you put as much force into the handlebar as it is ever likely to experience. Carbon does not fatigue, so if it does not fail then, it will probably be O.K. later - unless you overtighten it, bump it while crashing or overload it in some other way.
Any life expectancies of forks and steerer tubes? Mine is 16 years old
My bike doesn’t have a traditional steer tube, instead has a hinge type design. (Cervelo S5) Does this completely remove this potential issue?
Ryon Beachner He has a video on exactly that S5 issue. In short the pivot create some serious problems as well
Well, if I understand you, fork failures are an every day occurrence. They result from voids and overtightening. What I'm not sure is what actions one should take to avoid a fork failure. While I was aware that they failed, and I assumed a failure would be pretty dangerous, even potentially lethal, I need a specific action plan. Should the steerer be removed and examined by a professional? If so, how often is the procedure recommended?
All the voids seem to be on the outer edge of the carbon. Why do you think that is the case?
I wanted to ride my bicycle in an hour, now I'm really scared to ride... The fact, that I often ride in access of 85 km/h downhill and having a llight Rose X-Lite Team frame isnt't really helping me either.
I've ridden past a fatality due to a steerer failure. I've stuck to cro-mo since then. It's not worth saving a few grams. Plastic is for toys, I want tensile strength when my life depends on it.
Ive seen steel forks snap from fatigue. Carbon wont. People don't run deep enough steerer plugs and then blame the carbon when it fails from being crushed..
@@DurianriderCyclingTips stfu a-hole, all of the sudden you, the Phil Gaimon-wanna be, is a bicycle manufacturing authority? just keep on making your crap videos with your ladyboy GF LOL
Durianrider Cycling Tips - nope doesn’t happen to carbon steel, it will bend and bend plenty, if the design is adequate. Think of a paper clip. Remember quill steerers? Do you realize the kind of force it’s under from the wedge binder on the inside. Tighten it all you want the bolt will snap first. A casting can crack but that’s a defect in manufacturing. Once again the forensic analysis will determine the cause, analysis is relatively straightforward for metals. Not really a challenge or specialty, any engineering lab can do it.
@@robertp7209 There is no point in explainig basic science to an illiterate chimp like durianrider, i doubt he even even graduated from HS.. you are wasting your time.
GG DD - he’s probably shilling for one or more of the carbon bike or component vendors.
Landed here after some research on which carbon fork I should put on my track bike. Is there even one brand that can be trusted? Is it because most if not all manufacturers just outsource CF work in Asia?
I wanted to save a little weight. Now I think I'll live with the extra half pound from my aluminium fork!
It looks like there are critical manufacturing mistakes within the entire bicycle manufacturer industry. Wouldn't it be a safer bet to use a fork with aluminium steerer tube for the price of slightly more weight?
Forks with aluminium steerers are even worse, since the bonding between aluminium and carbon is a weak spot and practically impossible to do right. Even if everything is fine, differential thermal expansion will make it a risky proposition, as it creates a stress point unless the fork is always kept in the proper temperature range. And finally: aluminium fails too - perhaps even worse, as it is subject to material fatigue.
use a steel fork
@@methylmercurypoisoning Ive seen more steel forks fail than anything. CARBON WONT FAIL if you use a long steerer plug AND use a torque wrench AND don't run into the back of car at 60kph.
@@horrovac Thanks for regurgitating this video. ua-cam.com/video/rYOP-r2dA5I/v-deo.html. Carbon fiber can develop hairline fractures which you can't see with a naked eye, not to mention the voids in material which are "practically impossible" to eliminate during the manufacturing process. I guess nothing is safe, maybe ride a unicycle or just walk slowly to live a long life.
@@methylmercurypoisoning Use any fork you want from a reputable manufacturer. All materials are safe when used properly and all have pluses and minuses.
it seems that there needs to be a national or international inspection system/standard for these items.
C arbor forks should include aluminum insert enforcement sleeves like my Ouzo Q fork.The weight penalty is low and it reinforces the steerer tube.
I'm curious whether there are any symptoms from these defects like any creaking or squeaking noises prior to failure?
Sometimes, but mostly not.
CF steerer are a problem. I've known a lot of rider for many years and steerer failure is quite common and incredibly dangerous. I would say that on a bike 3 parts can easily be letal when failing :
Brakes (usually strong but a badly mounted brake cable can fail, not really the bike manufacturer fault).
Handlebar (can fail close to accessory mounting point, stem clamp, sensitive part, often bashed hard in crash, multiple failure to rider around me, can be bery bad)
CF steerer as shown here.
Honestly other parts often fail without dramatic consequences.
Eff that carpet fiber. Had a composite steerer and quickly exchanged it for what's real - steel.
Ive seen more steel fail than any material. Carbon can't fail. All these crushed steerers are from noobs running shallow steerer plugs with spacers on top of their stems! 1. STEERER PLUG NEEDS TO GO BELOW THE BOTTOM STEM BOLT!! 2. DONT RUN A SPLIT RING THAT HAS A GROVE IN ITS VERTICAL FACE! 3. USE A TORQUE WRENCH. 4 DROP YOUR FORK OUT EVERY FEW THOUSAND KM AND CHECK ALL IS WELL. :)
"Hope I haven't put you off" erm, yes, yes you have, mucho!
On my C'dale Supersix Himod I've use Deda long expander 70 mm instead C'dale light construction, Hopefully I can avoid carbon steer tube breaking under load.
I have accumulated many samples of 10-50mm rings from cutting the head tube. High-quality carbon fiber has thin walls and can withstand enormous compressive loads. Chinese brands and even middle-end line Canyon have thick walls. Despite this, they break very easily. I don't have an accurate frame to test for fracture load, but cheap carbon is dangerous to ride.
is it okay to have a scartch on carbon steerer?
hi sir good evening i am new to your channel.,i have to ask about my bike., i got crush last 2 weeks.,and my roadbike if i ride now will going to fall down if my hands off to the drop bar
Hello Raoul!
Have you compared the cheap chinese carbon forks with brand?
Also please tell about difference between used and new carbon forks.
Is it a good idea to change carbon fork in few years in case that you don't have a ultrasound scanner or x-ray?
If you go back in his catalogue there are some examples he goes over, a look clone if I recall.
It's not a good idea to replace carbon forks after a couple of years. Carbon does not fatigue, so if it was ok once, it's probably ok practically forever. Replacing it would mean replacing a known good part for an unknown one.
@@horrovac You are incorrect.. as Raoul has proven here, most carbon forks are full of voids and inperfections that will eventually cause failure in most of them. most carbon forks, unless ultra-sound scanned, should be replaced with real metal...
@@ggdd1299 I'm afraid you're the one who's wrong. Raoul did not, nor did he attempt to, prove that carbon forks are full of voids and imperfections, least of all most of them. His sample are the components that failed or had something wrong with them, which is not representative. He does not mention nor claim to know the percentage of components which have faults and imperfection. He is merely showing a couple of faults he has encountered and thinks worthy of note, and it is YOU who goes on to conclude that this is representative for ALL components - on no basis whatsoever. It is not. If it were, they would be failing all over the place. They do not. In fact Raoul himself states that most fork damage he sees are cracks caused by overtightening the stems, without anything being wrong with the fork itself.
For your education, a void is not a fatal flaw in itself. Depending on where it is located, it may be fine. If it is in an area that is clamped by the stem, that's bad. If it is lower down where there are no clamping forces, and the void isn't caused by a wrinkle, it may be ok. I'm a former aerospace quality inspector, and we were allowed to OK voids depending on the size or location, and even larger ones were sometimes approved after consultation with the engineering department. EVERYTHING that humans produce has "flaws and imperfections", and it's not the technology that makes it unreliable or dangerous, it's the engineering that provides - or does not provide - a sufficient margin of error.
Metal fails too, you know. So far I have broken several aluminium or steel components - most notably a badly engineered MTB frame - but as of yet no carbon ones.
Horovac - Don’t waste your time with GG the board stooge. GG’s gig is talking trash online, and pretending it knows everything, while remaining both gutless and clueless. Above in this same thread GG the designated board clown tried to claim the purpose of carbon paste was to make bike parts “fit” with each other. Of course, that is not its purpose and never has been. But the board chimp GG said so, therefore it must be true. LOL
I prefer steel forks. Heavy crown construction with a steel steerer. Full carbon if the lightest bike is the object, but when is that ever important? Unless you are trying to win the lightest bicycle world champs?
Ive seen more steel forks fail than carbon. Ive never seen a carbon fork fail actually. What we see is people running short plugs in their steers. Carbon doesnt fatigue. Steel does. Steel aint real when it fails from lots of miles.
@@durianriders This guy makes money when people bring their carbon forks in to get scanned. He has incentive to scare people into bringing their equipment in. He never mentions what brands have the least amount of defects. If he wanted to help at all he would cut up some hongfu dengfu cheap Chinese bikes and let the people know which ones are the best.
@@davidwinters9461 No brand chinese carbon has a huge variance.. he would have to cheack a lot of forks.. and you would only learn that yes, there is a big variance.
@@aitorbleda8267 It seems that all the manufacturers have a huge variance. I'm talking about frames. The quality build of the frame. If Hongfu frames have the same quality as all these expensive brands then that's a wrap.
@@durianriders @durianrider stfu a-hole, all of the sudden you, the Phil Gaimon-wanna be, is a bicycle manufacturing authority? just keep on making your crap videos with your ladyboy GF and keep on breaking Strava KOMs using a motorcycle, you phony wanker LOL
The audio track keeps breaking up around 4:-5minutes.....
In between the layup of T1000 CARBON FIBER there needs to be sufficient resin applied to adhere to the outer layer of more compliant T800 FABRIC. The grain and the texture are different but will adhere together if the mold is tightened sufficiently. The inner layer of T1000 or now T1100 is super stiff, and if it cracks then the t800 flexes and you get layer separation. The resin itself HAS WEIGHT, and obviously not enough has been applied. Now if the bike is T1100 based then there is no flex on the headset and stuff has to give way separating the layers that dont have enough resin applied. There is also a curing process that must be adhered to in Aerospace application. Most manufacturers are worried their customers will complain if its overweight.
That's not how it's done. No resin is applied. It's already in the prepreg in the correct amount.
@@billlieu9116 Connecting layers requires resin. Its on torays website.
@@thiosemicarbizidebenzoylal2921 I don't think you understand how b-stage prepreg works.
T1100 q or g prepeg layered against t800 q or g needs a binder. I fully understand the process. That binder in the symmetric layering process needs glue or resin to cement those layers in a molecular bond. Even prepeg requires this material before the cooking process. What do i not understand? Please tell me.
@@billlieu9116 Do you think its made from single sheet layering? Do you understand its more than a single sheet used in bike manufacturing? Or aerospace?
When you hear the sound of the forks when he puts them on the table you realy feel we are riding shit 😭
Raul, is there a useful takeway for us average joes? You say carbon bikes are fine, but what? Only if we bring them to you for a scan ?
just adds to the cost everytime you buy a buike or accidently drop it.
where to find a scanner in europe ? non existant
what i need to do.,,change the fork or it will be re align ,cus i think when i crush the fork would bend
Holy hell! Does it make sense to bring in a brand new steerer for inspection?
TheCrossroads09 The next question which is interesting is whether a LBS/ manufacturer will take seriously or accept the results of a private entity undertaking a scan on a frame, and a finding of voids. Would be good to hear Raoul’s experiences in this area. You could imagine drawn out arguments over the validity of the results and extent to which a part is actually compromised. And even if they do agree with an adverse finding, how long will the process take, and how long would you be without your potentially just purchased brand new bike. Especially if there was a waiting list for the model you bought anyway. That’s one thing that has kept me from getting a scan on my newly purchased carbon bike. Bottom line: manufacturers need to certify their frames void/defect free.
@@sward5106 unlike the aero space industry there is no oversight from a governing body in relation to bicycle manufacturing.
Personally have been so paranoid about carbon and their painted surfaces that I could only buy titanium from now on but I still have the carbon fork.
@@TheCrossroads09 Almost all of the voids are in the parts new from the factory... Here most of the originating flaws were from over tightening the stem. Remember to buy forks with proper sleeves, like the ones on cervelos.
I had the problem inside is a star in the fork, that cracked
Carbon is the best material, if it's ... and if it's ... and if it's ...
Unfortunately it's not.
The only way to get the industry to change would be a class action lawsuit against the entire industry
Hi Raoul... Is there anyone in the US that you could recommend to do a scan?
If he doesn’t respond, locate your nearest engineering university and call them, you want to speak to the Dean or head of the mechanical engineering dept., or metallurgy group. As a private individual, it may cost you nothing or a nominal charge. Even the whole frame too. Engineering or materials laboratories can do it for hire, at a cost.
The two that i know in the US are: Ruckus Composites
and Calfee-Design, i am sure there may be more..
@@ggdd1299 Okay, thanks. I just contacted both companies.
@@shibaburn7725 i am glad i could help.
@@ggdd1299 "We do not perform any x-rays or ultrasonic inspections on frames or bicycle components. The only service we offer for forks is a symmetry test, this would mainly indicate any signs of speed wobble.
Regards,
Claudia Saldana
Carbon Repair Manager
Calfee Design"
Damn i got so lucky my for failed in same way but I was almost standing when it happened so didn't even fall on ground
The question I have is... how the hell brands should improve manufacturing processes to perfect it and make more secure parts?
Easy: Check every part, and discard/redo/fix for even small issues. Yes, that would mean serious cost increases.
Perhaps doubling the price will do it. People are so hard up for carbon, not likely to go back to cro moly steerers and crowns.
Any idea what percentage of forks are bad. I can't imagine out of 10s thousands bikes sold there are lots of these.
This guy will not give us the full picture. He has an odd way of keeping the data to himself. Very suspect!
@@davidwinters9461 Your intelligence is "Very Suspect"
Only the manufacturers will know these percentages, and they will never reveal this to the public.
@@MrWesman43 He knows the number of bikes he has inspected and the number of bikes that pass. This is enough to make a percentage. This information for each brand would be nice.
David Winters Luescher Teknik is a carbon repair business. People bring crashed and damaged / suspected damaged bikes to Raoul for repair. You are asking for , what percentage of crashed/damaged bikes have faulty forks or steerer tubes? This value has no relevance in the real world. The issue here is lack of regulation in the manufacturing process, specifically with regards to quality control and/or testing regulations.
The World is an unsafe place. Ride on.
Are there any fork manufacturers who do QC properly? The voids and porosity are clearly manufacturing issues, and should be caught before the fork leaves the factory, especially because the issue is not detectable by the consumer. Damage from overtightening is a different matter, of course.
Perhaps it’s time to go back to cro moly steel steerers and crown. My Kestrel EMS fork from 1996 went thru 20k miles before retiring the bike recently, and it provided a great ride exactly why carbon was purposed for in forks. Carbon doesn’t provide any warning it seems, just lets go, unlike steel or aluminum. If one finds the stem getting loose at some point in time, watch out.
Who can do scans like that in Germany? Bitte melden!
schließe mich an.
Have you ever had any EC90forks pop-up with voids or problems ?
ALL brands have voids. Voids are not the issue here. That bianchi fork snapped because of a short steerer plug and the noob was running SPACERS on top of his stem...
@@durianriders how do you know this was the cause of the failure? are you an expert? from what i can tell you are just another wanker making shait videos on YT
@@ggdd1299 Look at the photos you fool. You are just another anon troll talking crap about me because you are jealous of my gf and lifestyle. Talk facts vs personal agenda bro. You spread slander about Cannondale that isnt true. I hope they sue your ass!
@@DurianriderCyclingTips LOL.. jealous of a nobody illiterate YT troll who can't even read and do simple research?? LOL Learn how to read: The MIAMI HERALD wrote "Cannondale bikes recalled after BROKEN FORKS result in serious injuries and one death" did you even complete high school? Tell your ladyboy to give you some reading and comprehension lessons, because you are looking like a total idiot here, LOL
the more pictures i see of these failed carbon products,the more
uncomfortable i feel about my 2 carbon forks.....
Riding on carbon since 84 when i got the vitus k 9, and in my experience
the fork/stem connection is the most sensible part,and it is most dangerous when
it fails!
That’s why the only carbon thing on my titanium frame is the rim of the back wheel.
I‘m about 82 kg/191cm, so it’s only 300 gr of weight added to a much more stable
aluminum fork.Don‘t risc your life folks 🤙 🚴🏽💦
So what do you do, forget carbon and go for titanium?
Why bother going with titanium? Your tire could still fail and kill you. Bike riding is inherently dangerous like flying on an airplane, driving in a car, riding a ski tram, taking an elevator, etc. All these vehicles are imperfect, but the experts have determined it's good enough. Carbon fiber bicycles will always have imperfections if you look hard and long enough, but are they good enough with most imperfections? The experts and the manufacturers decided they are.
Any old metal bike is better than a chinese-slave made carbon crap bike.
I’m scared of carbon bikes. I know carbon is a great material, but if the manufacturers are not doing their proper inspections on the product they sell, how am I supposed to not be scared of it?! I don’t have scanning equipment at home and even if I did I wouldn’t know how to use it.
To do proper inspections would lead to higher costs that they will then pass on to the consumer - so unless they are forced by some international regulatory board (non-exists) - they won't invest money into doing these inspections. Buy a Titanium, steel or Aluminium bike, their mode of failure is not catastrophic like CF is, so you will know before they fail.
Triode 12 I do own a Seven titanium bike and it is my #1 bike. I lost faith on carbon bikes not because is not a great material but because of the problems we see on videos like this. I agree with you that if they did better checks they would pass those charges to us. But carbon bikes are expensive already and I can’t accept this kind of mediocre manufacturing as if “this is just the norm”.
Isnt the bianchi one down to assembly error and not manufacturing?
Who's to say if the steerer wasn't poorly made at the point of contact for the stem?
JasonInMelbourne - a root cause analysis of the failure, by an expert, a plaintiff hires. The manufacturer will defend his product with their experts or 3rd party experts, as usual.
@@JasonInMelbournewhile that js certainly possible, and we wont know unless leuscher scans or cuts the fork up and we know the installation history, some things stand out for me:
Leuscher indicated there was wear on the compression ring (plug?) Area. This indicates that a part that is not supposed to move is moving, and that indicates improper installation. Once you have improper installation of the fork, all bets are off. In fact, an improperly installed compression plug is the most common cause of fork failure by stem overtightening.
Next, leuscher himself says the stem was over tightened. If you look at the crack formation, it looks to be directly in line with the 'pinch line' on your stem. That would also indicate that overtightening was the primary cause of the failure.
Finally, this is a relatively commin failure seen in bike shops. Based on this i'm betting on user error
@@davidngqkalone88 It definitely looks like typical stem overtightening, but I was just throwing another possible reason for the failure.
I learnt something...only use Cro-Mo forks......and Cro_MO Frames....😁😁😁😁😁
If the steerer is the most critical failure ( as no time to react and stop) why don’t we all add a few grams and use aluminium steerer tubes. 🚴🏽🏴
they fail more than carbon. Best is just run a long plug and don't use a spilt ring that has a vertical grove in it.
durianrider would that only eliminate the crushing risk. Any voids etc would still be present? I guess we never know what we’re getting mate👎
Alu fatigues relatively quickly if thin.. so better tonstick with carbon.
The bonding point between an aluminium steerer and the carbon blades is a weak point. It's going to be fine in most cases but full carbon is probably safer.
@durianrider stfu a-hole, all of the sudden you, the Phil Gaimon-wanna be, is a bicycle manufacturing authority? just keep on making your shit videos with your ladyboy GF and keep on breaking Strava KOMs using a motorcycle, you phony wanker LOL
Raoul, do you know anyone in the US that does work like yours? A company or an individual that people can send components to and have them tested?
The two that i know in the US are: Ruckus Composites
and Calfee-Design, i am sure there may be more..
@@ggdd1299 Calfee said not them: "We do not perform any x-rays or ultrasonic inspections on frames or bicycle components. The only service we offer for forks is a symmetry test, this would mainly indicate any signs of speed wobble.
Regards,
Claudia Saldana
Carbon Repair Manager
Calfee Design"
@@shibaburn7725 so they are basically useless,, i can do a symmetry test a home with some calipers, LOL.. i will take them off my list.. Thanks
@@ggdd1299 Ruckus Composites' reply: "A fork ultrasound scan is $75 and we'll be able to determine if anything is wrong with it. Should be only a few days for the turn. We do not repair forks, however."
@@shibaburn7725 For $80+ i can buy a NEW 700c Aluminum fork on Ebay that will outlast any carbon fork... everyone should stop wasting their time buying carbon fiber garbage frames and components
What is peracity ?
Porosity - Air bubbles trapped in the resin.
how the f... we will be if sure?
So the real question is. It’s worthwhile spend all that money on a “big manufacturer” imagine $10,000 on a venge, madone etc and your fork 💀.
Maybe they will get it right for another $10K ?
Holy smokes! And I've been considering a bike with a carbon fork! I weigh too much for it (142kg), guess I'll have to stick to steel...
Definitely.
@@johnthompson9602 Steel is Real (heavy) but its steel real!
hmmmmm glad i have an alloy steerer.
lol they fail more than carbon mate. Carbon CAN'T fail from miles but alloy does.
@@durianriders SHIT
The bonding between an alloy steerer and carbon blades is a potential weak point, there are cases of forks separating there. I don't think this is to say alloy steerers aren't safe, this is still very rare, but I would think a full carbon fork is probably safer, if installed correctly (compression plug supporting the stem, torqued correctly)
@@blorg8206 it can but the force is non lateral so if the carbon tube became unbonded youd probably see it befire it would come apart as it sleeved.
GG = the little internet coward, who talks loads of trash online while refusing to post under its name.
GG = gutless guppy
Nice job you gutless little coward. LOL 😃
I'm going back to my Genesis with steel forks. The plastic bike's going on ebay.
Maybe ultrasonic scanners should be included with every carbon bike.
This is terrifying.
You ever seen a carbon bike or fork just fail from miles? IMPOSSIBLE! What fails is steerers when noobs run a steerer plug that doesnt go BEYOND the lowest stem bolt. Or they use a split ring that has a single grove in its vertical face.
@@durianriders So you're saying that the professional cyclist and his presumably professional team mechanic cited in this video are noobs?
@@junkandcrapamen there is no point in arguiing with ladyboy-loving, chinese-paid trolls..
@@durianriders Impossible, RIGHT.. telll that to the person who was riding his Cannondale CAADX and was killed because his carbon fork FAILED.. and then cannondale was forced to recall 11000, eleven-thousand bikes / forks in june 2019 . sure.. impossible.. the MIAMI HERALD WROTE an article about it..
"Cannondale bikes recalled after BROKEN FORKS result in serious injuries and one death"
So, how does one KNOW they are riding safe?! Buy steel instead?
As good as steel is it still can have problems, rust protection is important.
Hincapie, Paris-Roubaix, cobbles
Do remember - it was exactly this episode that caused me to reinforce my forksteers (see up above)
6:26 - eh?
good ‘ol steel for me thanks. Riding for the average bloke is primarily enjoyment, only steel buys me peace of mind to surrender to the enjoyment of riding, screw plastic
You know that steel can have manufacturing defects as well? Bad alloys, bad welds or simply corrosion can cause spontaneous failure in steel.