Absolutely, glad you guys are actually speaking about this. It’s somewhat common sense but I’m amazed how many times I see this from “professional” hunters. The rifle clamped down will not behave the same in the field. Point of impact will dramatically change from barrel harmonics and barrel lift factors.
It's because most gun owners are not shooters, but just see it as a means to an end, not an end in it's self. This is why nearly all gun owners have never mastered the fundamentals of marksmanship.
This was a great discussion. It comes down to barrel harmonics as far as the accuracy goes. I learned this the hard way with a Lead Sled and a 7mm rem mag that would not group in the sled even without the front strap. I've even seen differences in a zero going from one guy's shoulder to a different guy's shoulder.
I love my 257 Roberts. I have Sako L579 custom chambered in 257 Roberts that my Uncle had made in Winchester,Va. He used it for ground hog hunting. It is super accurate. I never heard of it before I saw my Uncle’s gun but I fell in love with it and some years later after seeing it, out of the blue he shipped it to me. I still hunt with it and will never get rid of it. Great gun to have.
With a sled your never supposed to weigh it down to the point the sled and gun don't move when fire. Your just supposed to reduce or dissipate some of the energy in friction when shooting.
Thanks for this, I shot briefly on a led sled for all the reasons you guys suggested and got all the uneven results and frustration you also proposed. I’m glad I only put about a box through my gun and watched this before I caused it any further damage. I now shoot off a bipod, shooting stick or freehand I don’t believe after learning this info that I’ll ever shoot off a vice again. I definitely agree with the “false zero” theory.
After sighting in off of either sand bags and/or bipod allowing the rifle to recoil, I always switch to practice shooting from field positions to confirm zero and do any minor sight adjustments to correct the changes in POI. Then I'll note the changes in POI as I shoot from at least in two other field positions. If I zero for standing position, I'll note the changes in zero for sitting and prone. If I zero for prone, I'll note the changes in zero for sitting and off hand. The changes in POI are even more exaggerated when one is using a shooting sling.
Never used a lead sled but I am big fan of muzzle breaks on big calibers or fast to maintain a clean sight line and to make a quick accurate follow up shot
Wow, really great discussion. I have always wanted a lead sled as I figured that would be the best way to take my lack of skill out of the equation. Was able to scratch this off my wish list. Saved me money now and frustration later. Thanks!
Another awesome vid as a follow-up to Jim's 3 minute short. Perfectly understandable. In fact,the only reason I could see for clamping a rifle is you are adjusting scope zero by moving the dials until the cross hairs are one the actual POI. There is another fast and easy way with no calculation and no gun vise if you are zeroing at 100 yards. Zoom until you MOA markings are the same as the target at 100 yards. count the number of hash marks over and hash marks up or down. Adjust that. Or, you could do math. The squares are 1 inch by 1 inch. At 100 yards, it is okay to treat 1 inch equals 1 MOA. We know it is actual 1.045 inches per 1 MOA but that is not going to make a difference. If you are 3 squares up, that is 3 inches, that is 3 MOA. So, you will want to twist the elevation turret in the "down" direction 3 MOA, which is 12 clicks on any Vortex MOA scope I know of. If you have a Rev Stop, you should not have that installed while zeroing. Wait until you are getting a good group around POA. And it you are 3 squares right of the center line, that is 3 inches, which is 3 MOA. You want to move the windage turret in the "left" direction 3 MOA, which are the big numbers. Or, you can count 12 clicks. I just recently got a TC Compass II rifle to be my drag through the brush and trees on public land hunting rifle. I have built my others to be heavier and they do great on a table at the range. This one, I am trying to keep light. Unloaded and bare it is 7 pounds. I tried my Crossfire II 3-9/ 40 mm Dead Hold BDC and that is a great scope but I have grown so comfortable with the EBR-2C and the EBR-7C reticle, that is pretty much what I want to see. So, I put on my Diamondback Tactical 6-24 / 50 mm FFP that I had bought before for a rifle that I recently upgraded to a Venom (in fact, I have three Venoms, now.) So, that scope is 24.6 ounces. I have a SilencerCo ASR 3 port muzzle brake on there (the kind you can thread on later an ear-saving device if you want to,) a Falcon Strike hydraulic recoil pad. Goda Grip cheek riser pad, ammo pad, and finger grips. A full magazine of Hornady .308 Win SST 165 grain in the 5 round rotary magazine. Nothing on the ammo grip. No bipod. I have a kitchen scale that goes to 50 lbs. 10 pounds 8.8 ounces. My goal was to stay under 11 pounds and I have done it. I have not had time to go to the range and test fire. When I do, it will be with sand bags, I had already determined that. My other rifles have bipods and they just get in the way while hunting and they add weight. Given a chance to roost in a spot, I shoot with my Bog Pod tripod (bought it on clearance at a local Academy, last one on the shelf.) Or, I will borrow a tree branch or fallen log. I read the "Art of the Rifle" by Jeff Cooper, famed instructor to Marines and the inspiration for the scout rifle with the forward mounted scope. Always shoot supported. Real marksmen always find a support, even just the side of a tree to brace the off hand and steady the fore grip. One should never really on the free standing off hand. But I will still try some of those for the last resort situation where I don't have time. But generally, you have time and you need to be quiet more than you need to be quick. Dry fire is great because it teaches you to be still and wait until you are settled to take the shot. And that is what you want. The recoil is going to surprise you anyway, as it should. That is why I believe in recoil management, especially for range days. So, now, I have the hydraulic pad, a muzzle brake. A significant chunk of the felt recoil will be gone. That does not get rid of the recoil but it changes direction in the case of the brake and slows it down on speed to a shove with the hydraulics. The rifle will still move and the human shock absorber will still transmit to the ground. Sir Isaac Newton and his Principia Mechanica strike, again. Especially when it comes to zeroing, you need to do it the way that you do when hunting. For example, my cheek height is perfect for tripod or other supported structure. I do not fire prone and where I hunt, getting prone just gets you too look at some tall brambles. No one is going hunting with a wide bench and bolted down and weighted vice. Zeroing is about this one rifle and this scope and this one particular round and how it reacts to your body specifically. A rifle doesn't have a general zero, it is to the specific person.
WOW!!!!! Well I learned something tonight listening to this. I've been shooting a gun vise for years BUT listening to this It just makes sense! Thank you guys for addressing this issue. AND, I won't be using that shooting rest any more. Just makes sense!
Anyone that’s spent some time shooting and gotten good with a Springer Air Rifle has a good concept of what you guys are talking about…. Nice video guys,, 🍻
I completely agree and know that what your discussing is true and accurate. I've witnessed it. Similar issues happen with airguns and optics because of the change in recoil direction and harmonics. A point that was not made and an issue that I feel wasn't addressed is the fact that the entire shooting industry is very aware of all the different shooting conditions a rifle and optic will be subjected too, yet this very common practice of shooting from a vise setup hasn't been addressed in the shock mitigation technology of your optics. I've seen other companies use equipment that literally pounds the scope nearly to pieces to make sure they maintain zero and optical integrity in every situation, including a fall from a helicopter. Usage in the sled is minor compared to some of the rigorous testing I've seen other companies employ in their scopes, testing you can Google or UA-cam and watch. Rifle companies also address this and test the firearms extensively, taking all common shooting rests, styles and conditions possible into consideration. Maybe I'm missing something but if I buy a good higher end optic it better perform for a high round count in every common, conceivable shooting position.
Extensive testing is always done on any optics, whether they are higher end or more entry level, to ensure they can withstand recoil and to ensure durability. However, shooting from a weighted gun vise is much harder on the optic (and your firearm) than just simply falling off of a bench or down a tree. It essentially would be like putting the stock of the firearm against a brick wall and pulling the trigger. It prevents the firearm from recoiling properly and sends all of the force through the optic. It's a practice that is best avoided.
I know a few people who had these devices. They could not take recoil. They were only shooting .308's and 30)06's. They would never shoot a 3 shot group under 2.5". I told them to shoot off sandbags and just fold a towel up and put on shoulder. They would either miss deer completely or hit them poorly. Most shots were 150 yds. or more. It was pitiful. There solution was to shoot .243's and .223's at deer, loaded with Barnes X bullets. I asked them if they all wear pink panties now too. They restrict there shots to 100 yds or less and hunt fields mainly. Much to my surprise, they hardly ever cripple a deer. Most fall on the spot or run less than 50 yds.
I bought a CVA handi rifle for the kids. Great company BTW. Gun shot terrible. I called them. The 1st thing they said is are you using a sled? I'm like nope. Why? They said they aren't to great for the guns n stuff. They ended up replacing my rifle with a 3/4" gun. Super good times.
I only use sandbags or a bipod….and most times after the initial sighting in I then shoot a few from standing or a position I may find myself in during hunting season. I do follow a guy who shoots from a weight sled…but the gun isnt secured to the rig…so it jumps a bit when fired. Im thinking thats still kind of iffy as the buttstock still hits a solid object….thoughts?
Sandbags, bipod, or a combination of the two is the best way to go. Even though there isn't weight or it isn't secured it can still have the same effects. Think about running the stock of your gun up against a brick wall and pulling the trigger. Not good!
Hey guys love the podcasts! I recently have been looking into building a 6mm rifle but I cant decide between Dasher, BR, ARC, GT, Creedmoor etc etc… I would love the input maybe even a 10 minute talk?
Just finished my arc build.....and for being a newbie (2 ND time) at long range it put down some nice groups 1.2moa (for me) at 1k yards... With factory ammo........highly recommend...
The biggest problem is people who think they know everything. I had a former boss that I told pretty much what you guys are talking about. I've always been a better shot offhand. If you shoot alot,you learn to "ride the wobble". He would see my muzzle moving, and couldn't fathom that it's the same idea as following through with a shotgun. After the first time we went shooting together, I started missing the target-in the same exact place,and he still thinks I cant shoot worth a damn!🤣 great video btw! Subscribed!
@Vortex Nation Podcast for #10minutetalk have you looked at future cartridges? I recently heard some initial details on polymer casing (for military etc.). It involved being able to control case capacity and bullet placement through the molded plastic design. Any short or long form podcasts from VNP?
Question. You are sighting in a rifle using the two shot method. Without a sled rest how do you accomplish keeping the rifle still and having two hands free to make the adjustments?
For the physics geeks in the audience, the reflection of the shockwave back into the firearm is a harmonic. And, unlike in music, harmonics in physics can be detrimental to components within a system. Consider how harmonics affected the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. It was catastrophic in the extreme.
The impact force “requires” that the rifle is allowed to move backwards. Newton’s 3rd law - action and reaction are equal an opposite. With 1/2 x mass x velocity^2 which is the energy response from the bullet leaving the barrel with the opposing energy, the backward velocity requires distance to travel. Removing distance you have no velocity, therefore the energy has to transfer elsewhere in the system and most times into deformation of screws, stock, etc. The Vice removes the movement, robs you from allowing the energy to dissipate over a few inches and into a shoulder, bag, etc. As for the burnout analogy, there are quite a few flaws in that one... remember the brake pedal is used when you let go of the clutch to light up the tires just enough to control the vehicle while the initial impact to the tires take place, cos if you got good grabby rubber, you will find yourself in a ditch or a wall 🤣🤣🤣 a little drag racing time might be required for you shooters at Vortex 😃😃
I've only used a lead sled a couple times with a couple rifles but they shot worse then when I shoot them off bags or a bipod. I know a few people who swear by them but I've never been a fan...
Never used a weighted gun vise, but I surely wouldn't being using one after seeing this video. Great advice. I completely understand the why and it makes perfect sense. Thank you so much for sharing.
My brothers rifle will not group well ever, using a bipod on a concrete shooting table. However just put some thick cardboard or a shirt under the bipod, and it works perfect on the concrete table
I only a vise on break in for the higher magnum/recoil lighter hunting guns. After that it goes back to its shelf. Sight in I just use my bags, much more consistent 0
I have an off topic question that I’m hoping you guys can answer for me. I just bought a Tikka T3X Lite 7mm Rem Mag and want to mount a viper 4-16x50 on it with the Vortex precision rings. I saw a video a while back that had Ryan in it and he said best way to go is to mount a picatinny rail to it then the rings. Can you clarify why you’d rather add that piece instead of mounting the rings directly to the little pinch rail that Tikka has? Thank you very much! Love all your guys videos!
Sir you must not know too much about Vortex to be making comments about their quality just because of where they're assembled. I'm a Leupold guy myself, but I know that Vortex makes some quality stuff and I wouldn't hesitate to put any of their optics on my rigs
No, don’t use a gun Vice it you enjoy not breaking your rifle in various places, as well as the scope no matter who makes it. Impact force is no joke on equipment, from China or anywhere else. While it can be fun to throw the foreign manufacturing under the bus, common sense should be hailed to be the first step to enlightenment on this subject. 😃
Last year was my girlfriends first year deer hunting. I decided to have her shoot my .22-250 and she was nervous about recoil and asking to shoot it out of my dads lead sled. Instead of letting her use the lead sled I demonstrated it didn’t have any recoil by putting the but pad against my you know what’s and pulling the trigger.
I do use it to bore sight and to hold my firearms in place when I make initial sight in adjustments. Cuz it works very well for that. But then it's back to rest and a squeeze bag. But yes... agreed
@@scottalex5239 care to engage in an actual conversation? There are COUNTLESS PRS shooters for example that would laugh at your comment. I cant think of a SINGLE manufacturer of optics that has not failed. It is a mechanical device and as such it will fail be it Nightforce, S&B, etc.
People who use these items know nothing about shooting ! They are shooting more rifle than they can handle. I consider them a wuss. I am a former US Army sniper and thats my thoughts on the subject.
Your understanding of the subject was rather lacking on this conversation. The theory behind firearms is a controlled explosion contained in a barrel between two weights. First weight is the combined weight of the firearm and shooter weighting thousands of times the second weight the bullet. The reason why the bullet leaves the barrel with roughly 95% of the generated energy, and only around 5% of the energy is felt as recoil. Is the bullet is the direct path of least resistance with dramatically less mass/inertia to accelerate. Using a fixed mount does two things. The 5% of wasted energy felt as recoil is mostly transfered into bullet velocity and higher pressure gas at the muzzle. The energy transfer from the action to the mount is much faster meaning at a higher amplitude, but is actually less efficient in energy transfer as more energy is lost as vibration. It would be more accurate to say it is damaging because of poor design choices common in internally adjusted optics. Than to claim more energy is being transferred. Cheers
Absolutely, glad you guys are actually speaking about this. It’s somewhat common sense but I’m amazed how many times I see this from “professional” hunters. The rifle clamped down will not behave the same in the field. Point of impact will dramatically change from barrel harmonics and barrel lift factors.
You are 100% correct, my friend!
It's because most gun owners are not shooters, but just see it as a means to an end, not an end in it's self. This is why nearly all gun owners have never mastered the fundamentals of marksmanship.
This was a great discussion. It comes down to barrel harmonics as far as the accuracy goes. I learned this the hard way with a Lead Sled and a 7mm rem mag that would not group in the sled even without the front strap. I've even seen differences in a zero going from one guy's shoulder to a different guy's shoulder.
I love my 257 Roberts. I have Sako L579 custom chambered in 257 Roberts that my Uncle had made in Winchester,Va. He used it for ground hog hunting. It is super accurate. I never heard of it before I saw my Uncle’s gun but I fell in love with it and some years later after seeing it, out of the blue he shipped it to me. I still hunt with it and will never get rid of it. Great gun to have.
With a sled your never supposed to weigh it down to the point the sled and gun don't move when fire. Your just supposed to reduce or dissipate some of the energy in friction when shooting.
Exactly
Thanks for this, I shot briefly on a led sled for all the reasons you guys suggested and got all the uneven results and frustration you also proposed.
I’m glad I only put about a box through my gun and watched this before I caused it any further damage.
I now shoot off a bipod, shooting stick or freehand I don’t believe after learning this info that I’ll ever shoot off a vice again.
I definitely agree with the “false zero” theory.
After sighting in off of either sand bags and/or bipod allowing the rifle to recoil, I always switch to practice shooting from field positions to confirm zero and do any minor sight adjustments to correct the changes in POI. Then I'll note the changes in POI as I shoot from at least in two other field positions. If I zero for standing position, I'll note the changes in zero for sitting and prone. If I zero for prone, I'll note the changes in zero for sitting and off hand. The changes in POI are even more exaggerated when one is using a shooting sling.
I agree. You have to zero how you normally shoot.
Super smart of you. Zeroing in how you'll be shooting in the field is always important.
Never used a lead sled but I am big fan of muzzle breaks on big calibers or fast to maintain a clean sight line and to make a quick accurate follow up shot
Wow, really great discussion. I have always wanted a lead sled as I figured that would be the best way to take my lack of skill out of the equation. Was able to scratch this off my wish list. Saved me money now and frustration later. Thanks!
Another awesome vid as a follow-up to Jim's 3 minute short. Perfectly understandable. In fact,the only reason I could see for clamping a rifle is you are adjusting scope zero by moving the dials until the cross hairs are one the actual POI. There is another fast and easy way with no calculation and no gun vise if you are zeroing at 100 yards. Zoom until you MOA markings are the same as the target at 100 yards. count the number of hash marks over and hash marks up or down. Adjust that. Or, you could do math. The squares are 1 inch by 1 inch. At 100 yards, it is okay to treat 1 inch equals 1 MOA.
We know it is actual 1.045 inches per 1 MOA but that is not going to make a difference. If you are 3 squares up, that is 3 inches, that is 3 MOA. So, you will want to twist the elevation turret in the "down" direction 3 MOA, which is 12 clicks on any Vortex MOA scope I know of. If you have a Rev Stop, you should not have that installed while zeroing. Wait until you are getting a good group around POA. And it you are 3 squares right of the center line, that is 3 inches, which is 3 MOA. You want to move the windage turret in the "left" direction 3 MOA, which are the big numbers. Or, you can count 12 clicks.
I just recently got a TC Compass II rifle to be my drag through the brush and trees on public land hunting rifle. I have built my others to be heavier and they do great on a table at the range. This one, I am trying to keep light. Unloaded and bare it is 7 pounds. I tried my Crossfire II 3-9/ 40 mm Dead Hold BDC and that is a great scope but I have grown so comfortable with the EBR-2C and the EBR-7C reticle, that is pretty much what I want to see. So, I put on my Diamondback Tactical 6-24 / 50 mm FFP that I had bought before for a rifle that I recently upgraded to a Venom (in fact, I have three Venoms, now.) So, that scope is 24.6 ounces. I have a SilencerCo ASR 3 port muzzle brake on there (the kind you can thread on later an ear-saving device if you want to,) a Falcon Strike hydraulic recoil pad. Goda Grip cheek riser pad, ammo pad, and finger grips. A full magazine of Hornady .308 Win SST 165 grain in the 5 round rotary magazine. Nothing on the ammo grip. No bipod. I have a kitchen scale that goes to 50 lbs. 10 pounds 8.8 ounces. My goal was to stay under 11 pounds and I have done it.
I have not had time to go to the range and test fire. When I do, it will be with sand bags, I had already determined that. My other rifles have bipods and they just get in the way while hunting and they add weight. Given a chance to roost in a spot, I shoot with my Bog Pod tripod (bought it on clearance at a local Academy, last one on the shelf.) Or, I will borrow a tree branch or fallen log. I read the "Art of the Rifle" by Jeff Cooper, famed instructor to Marines and the inspiration for the scout rifle with the forward mounted scope. Always shoot supported. Real marksmen always find a support, even just the side of a tree to brace the off hand and steady the fore grip. One should never really on the free standing off hand. But I will still try some of those for the last resort situation where I don't have time. But generally, you have time and you need to be quiet more than you need to be quick. Dry fire is great because it teaches you to be still and wait until you are settled to take the shot. And that is what you want. The recoil is going to surprise you anyway, as it should. That is why I believe in recoil management, especially for range days. So, now, I have the hydraulic pad, a muzzle brake. A significant chunk of the felt recoil will be gone. That does not get rid of the recoil but it changes direction in the case of the brake and slows it down on speed to a shove with the hydraulics. The rifle will still move and the human shock absorber will still transmit to the ground. Sir Isaac Newton and his Principia Mechanica strike, again.
Especially when it comes to zeroing, you need to do it the way that you do when hunting. For example, my cheek height is perfect for tripod or other supported structure. I do not fire prone and where I hunt, getting prone just gets you too look at some tall brambles. No one is going hunting with a wide bench and bolted down and weighted vice. Zeroing is about this one rifle and this scope and this one particular round and how it reacts to your body specifically. A rifle doesn't have a general zero, it is to the specific person.
WOW!!!!! Well I learned something tonight listening to this. I've been shooting a gun vise for years BUT listening to this It just makes sense! Thank you guys for addressing this issue. AND, I won't be using that shooting rest any more. Just makes sense!
Absolutely! Thanks for tuning in!🤜🤛
Anyone that’s spent some time shooting and gotten good with a Springer Air Rifle has a good concept of what you guys are talking about…. Nice video guys,, 🍻
Thanks for tuning in, John!
I completely agree and know that what your discussing is true and accurate. I've witnessed it. Similar issues happen with airguns and optics because of the change in recoil direction and harmonics. A point that was not made and an issue that I feel wasn't addressed is the fact that the entire shooting industry is very aware of all the different shooting conditions a rifle and optic will be subjected too, yet this very common practice of shooting from a vise setup hasn't been addressed in the shock mitigation technology of your optics. I've seen other companies use equipment that literally pounds the scope nearly to pieces to make sure they maintain zero and optical integrity in every situation, including a fall from a helicopter. Usage in the sled is minor compared to some of the rigorous testing I've seen other companies employ in their scopes, testing you can Google or UA-cam and watch. Rifle companies also address this and test the firearms extensively, taking all common shooting rests, styles and conditions possible into consideration. Maybe I'm missing something but if I buy a good higher end optic it better perform for a high round count in every common, conceivable shooting position.
Extensive testing is always done on any optics, whether they are higher end or more entry level, to ensure they can withstand recoil and to ensure durability. However, shooting from a weighted gun vise is much harder on the optic (and your firearm) than just simply falling off of a bench or down a tree. It essentially would be like putting the stock of the firearm against a brick wall and pulling the trigger. It prevents the firearm from recoiling properly and sends all of the force through the optic. It's a practice that is best avoided.
I know a few people who had these devices. They could not take recoil. They were only shooting .308's and 30)06's. They would never shoot a 3 shot group under 2.5". I told them to shoot off sandbags and just fold a towel up and put on shoulder. They would either miss deer completely or hit them poorly. Most shots were 150 yds. or more. It was pitiful. There solution was to shoot .243's and .223's at deer, loaded with Barnes X bullets. I asked them if they all wear pink panties now too. They restrict there shots to 100 yds or less and hunt fields mainly. Much to my surprise, they hardly ever cripple a deer. Most fall on the spot or run less than 50 yds.
I bought a CVA handi rifle for the kids. Great company BTW. Gun shot terrible. I called them. The 1st thing they said is are you using a sled? I'm like nope. Why? They said they aren't to great for the guns n stuff. They ended up replacing my rifle with a 3/4" gun. Super good times.
You guys are killing me ! I keep betting the “under” in Vegas on whether your videos will be 10 minutes!
😂😂😂
That's okay. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.
@@ronws2007 😂😂😂
I'm surprised more people don't feel this way
People seem to get good groups with their vises and I don't see how
450 Bushmaster /350 Legend Straight Wall Extravaganza, Please.
the 350 should be called the 350 Joke
@@swiftusmaximus5651 really? It's pretty much on par with 35 rem which by all accounts is a fairly decent critter getter inside of 150-200 ish yards
@@urmominabox87 Then call it the 35 Legend then
A cartridge I'd like to hear you talk about is 350 legend. For those of us in straight walled cartridge deer hunting regions
I only use sandbags or a bipod….and most times after the initial sighting in I then shoot a few from standing or a position I may find myself in during hunting season. I do follow a guy who shoots from a weight sled…but the gun isnt secured to the rig…so it jumps a bit when fired. Im thinking thats still kind of iffy as the buttstock still hits a solid object….thoughts?
Sandbags, bipod, or a combination of the two is the best way to go. Even though there isn't weight or it isn't secured it can still have the same effects. Think about running the stock of your gun up against a brick wall and pulling the trigger. Not good!
Hey guys love the podcasts! I recently have been looking into building a 6mm rifle but I cant decide between Dasher, BR, ARC, GT, Creedmoor etc etc… I would love the input maybe even a 10 minute talk?
Just finished my arc build.....and for being a newbie (2 ND time) at long range it put down some nice groups 1.2moa (for me) at 1k yards...
With factory ammo........highly recommend...
The biggest problem is people who think they know everything. I had a former boss that I told pretty much what you guys are talking about. I've always been a better shot offhand. If you shoot alot,you learn to "ride the wobble". He would see my muzzle moving, and couldn't fathom that it's the same idea as following through with a shotgun. After the first time we went shooting together, I started missing the target-in the same exact place,and he still thinks I cant shoot worth a damn!🤣 great video btw! Subscribed!
Too funny! We appreciate the support, Richard!👊
@Vortex Nation Podcast for #10minutetalk have you looked at future cartridges? I recently heard some initial details on polymer casing (for military etc.). It involved being able to control case capacity and bullet placement through the molded plastic design. Any short or long form podcasts from VNP?
That sounds very interesting! We haven't explored that topic just yet, but we'll add it to the idea board. We appreciate it!
Question. You are sighting in a rifle using the two shot method. Without a sled rest how do you accomplish keeping the rifle still and having two hands free to make the adjustments?
Rail guns or F Class, Benchrest set ups and free recoil. Much better than gun vise.
For the physics geeks in the audience, the reflection of the shockwave back into the firearm is a harmonic. And, unlike in music, harmonics in physics can be detrimental to components within a system. Consider how harmonics affected the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. It was catastrophic in the extreme.
Bingo. And it can affect accuracy. This why we free float. And it sounds like they are going to talk about recoil soon.
Aeolian Harp was a real thing.......
The impact force “requires” that the rifle is allowed to move backwards. Newton’s 3rd law - action and reaction are equal an opposite. With 1/2 x mass x velocity^2 which is the energy response from the bullet leaving the barrel with the opposing energy, the backward velocity requires distance to travel. Removing distance you have no velocity, therefore the energy has to transfer elsewhere in the system and most times into deformation of screws, stock, etc. The Vice removes the movement, robs you from allowing the energy to dissipate over a few inches and into a shoulder, bag, etc. As for the burnout analogy, there are quite a few flaws in that one... remember the brake pedal is used when you let go of the clutch to light up the tires just enough to control the vehicle while the initial impact to the tires take place, cos if you got good grabby rubber, you will find yourself in a ditch or a wall 🤣🤣🤣 a little drag racing time might be required for you shooters at Vortex 😃😃
My weighted vise has a heavy spring to soften/absorb the recoil…. Supposedly. (Caldwell lead sled SI).
I use the exact same model with no issues that I’m aware of.
Hey what about a lead sled without any weight in the sled?
Same factors apply, just not quite to the same extent.
I've only used a lead sled a couple times with a couple rifles but they shot worse then when I shoot them off bags or a bipod. I know a few people who swear by them but I've never been a fan...
For sure! They can certainly cause a number of problems.
True dat ese.
Can you guys do a 10 min Talk about the 9.3x62mm Mauser?
It's a super underrated cartridge.
We will certainly add that to the list of suggestions and see what we can do!
Oh boi I bet the fudds love this one
Hey man, I got my lead sled bolted to hood of my truck. Kill the wabbit.
What about a lead sled there is no vise and its cushioned
Louder for the people in the back!
Never used a weighted gun vise, but I surely wouldn't being using one after seeing this video. Great advice. I completely understand the why and it makes perfect sense. Thank you so much for sharing.
Boys can you finally do a talk on the 6.5x47 Lapua muchhhhhh appreciatedddddd
My brothers rifle will not group well ever, using a bipod on a concrete shooting table.
However just put some thick cardboard or a shirt under the bipod, and it works perfect on the concrete table
My experience also with bypods on them cement tables. A nice rest with a good back bag is my faves now.
Front rest rear bag.
Do the 308 NORMA MAG
Cracked stocks from recoil lug/other mounting hardware. Shoot off sand bags. Just like the advice I got in college: just bag it bro :)
Perfect
I like using a bag of feed to shoot off of
Honestly. I should have taken his advice for the day.
Newton's Third Law is not just a good idea......it is the LAW
When’s the next cartridge talk
I only a vise on break in for the higher magnum/recoil lighter hunting guns. After that it goes back to its shelf. Sight in I just use my bags, much more consistent 0
I have an off topic question that I’m hoping you guys can answer for me. I just bought a Tikka T3X Lite 7mm Rem Mag and want to mount a viper 4-16x50 on it with the Vortex precision rings. I saw a video a while back that had Ryan in it and he said best way to go is to mount a picatinny rail to it then the rings. Can you clarify why you’d rather add that piece instead of mounting the rings directly to the little pinch rail that Tikka has? Thank you very much! Love all your guys videos!
But my led sled is so 🔥! 😭
😐
That was a joke.
@@kriswarren6202 ahhh...yes...we knew that.😂
Good way to break a wood stock with a heavy caliber rifle.
So dont use a Gun Vise if you have a Vortex (Chinese)Scope?
Sir you must not know too much about Vortex to be making comments about their quality just because of where they're assembled. I'm a Leupold guy myself, but I know that Vortex makes some quality stuff and I wouldn't hesitate to put any of their optics on my rigs
@@noahhorinek Im asking a question. But yeah Leupold for me too. If its any consolation ,I think theyre Bino's are OK
No, don’t use a gun Vice it you enjoy not breaking your rifle in various places, as well as the scope no matter who makes it. Impact force is no joke on equipment, from China or anywhere else. While it can be fun to throw the foreign manufacturing under the bus, common sense should be hailed to be the first step to enlightenment on this subject. 😃
@Jeremy Chapman And Milwaukee is TTI which is made in China too, along with Ryobi and Ridgid.
@Jeremy Chapman I was agreeing with you actually. I use ridgid myself.
Real men shoot free hand...#KeepAdjustingYourBag
Last year was my girlfriends first year deer hunting. I decided to have her shoot my .22-250 and she was nervous about recoil and asking to shoot it out of my dads lead sled. Instead of letting her use the lead sled I demonstrated it didn’t have any recoil by putting the but pad against my you know what’s and pulling the trigger.
Well...that's one way to do it😂
I once put a 5.56 to my nose and fired to demonstrate the lack of recoil. I will admit your method takes a little more panache
You should ONLY use the vice to roughly sight in on your .375 H&H and higher and then get off the vice and get ON THE STICKS!!!!!
I do use it to bore sight and to hold my firearms in place when I make initial sight in adjustments. Cuz it works very well for that. But then it's back to rest and a squeeze bag. But yes... agreed
Buy quality, buy American, buy Leupold
Build a better scope
When you find a way to absorb an impact force, let us know :)
Trolls are going to troll
@@hughtanner208 and vortex "fan boys " will be vortex "fan boys"
@@scottalex5239 care to engage in an actual conversation? There are COUNTLESS PRS shooters for example that would laugh at your comment. I cant think of a SINGLE manufacturer of optics that has not failed. It is a mechanical device and as such it will fail be it Nightforce, S&B, etc.
People who use these items know nothing about shooting ! They are shooting more rifle than they can handle. I consider them a wuss. I am a former US Army sniper and thats my thoughts on the subject.
Your understanding of the subject was rather lacking on this conversation. The theory behind firearms is a controlled explosion contained in a barrel between two weights. First weight is the combined weight of the firearm and shooter weighting thousands of times the second weight the bullet. The reason why the bullet leaves the barrel with roughly 95% of the generated energy, and only around 5% of the energy is felt as recoil. Is the bullet is the direct path of least resistance with dramatically less mass/inertia to accelerate. Using a fixed mount does two things. The 5% of wasted energy felt as recoil is mostly transfered into bullet velocity and higher pressure gas at the muzzle. The energy transfer from the action to the mount is much faster meaning at a higher amplitude, but is actually less efficient in energy transfer as more energy is lost as vibration. It would be more accurate to say it is damaging because of poor design choices common in internally adjusted optics. Than to claim more energy is being transferred. Cheers