I'd disagree. Being put on hiatus at that time preserved its legacy for the future. Could you imagine how bad 90s who would have been with Uncle Vernon as the Doctor? That would have been the final nail in the coffin.
@@purefoldnz3070 I agree with your point, but at the time, there was so much that appeared ahead and possible as the McCoy and Aldred team had gelled. I had bought back into the show, really for the first time since Peter had left… I think it was an age thing… and I really loved McCoy and Ace. The Dalek episodes were landmarks. So, yeah. I see what you’re saying. The break of those years with only the single eighth Doctor movie popping up certainly set the stage for 9’s return with a vengeance
The 7th Doctor was a terrific Doctor, and Ace is the best companion in the whole series. Ace should have been the first female Doctor. She should have been trained to become a Timelord, and slowly developed into the Doctor's successor. Instead, the show got canceled, and rebooted into something that was great early on, and then proceeded to make many of the same mistakes that drove the original series into the ground. Bad casting, shoehorned, badly written nutjob political commentary, schizophrenic direction, bad villain of the week stories, etc etc. Chibnall learned nothing from the mistakes of his predecessors.
The McCoy era reintroduced the mystery of The Doctor. Some great scripts and very fine acting added to the delightfully dark atmosphere. It's a shame we couldn't have had a couple more seasons of this.
@@Georgie_R I totally reject the Chibnall attempt to change the established continuity in favour of his own chaotic mess. The idea of the Fugitive Doctor is a muddled horrible concept, and the Timeless Children thing, while it COULD be worked into the established continuity, raises too many questions and quagmires to make it viable. My hope is that RTD will "explain away" the whole Chibnall era. I really do.
@@Georgie_R I can pretty much agree with that analysis. I too kind of liked The Timeless Child thing, but I just feel it rather confuses things....but then, look at The War Doctor, which completely messed up the numbering system (still LOVED John Hurt though). Jo Martin was great as a possible past Doctor, but I just can never accept anyone as the FIRST Doctor other than Hartnell (and David Bradley). I absolutely adore Bill's era and his characterization of The Doctor. And to be honest, I really loved the TV movie (Enemy Within) and The Timeless child does mess that up a bit (The Doctor couldn't have had a human mother if he was also the mysterious regenerating child).
The last two McCoy seasons were so awesome, so dark & creative. The companion dynamic of Ace & Doctor was so fun , and intriguing. It's a shame , they gave up on the show , cause it was at a creative height relative to the John Pertwee years.
Absolute rubbish. The Sylvester McCoy era was a joke. Not even a funny joke. No wonder it was cancelled, I still can't watch it. Bonnie Langford? That was enough for me. How she still gets work is a bigger mystery than Dr.Who....
I agree! I grew up on the McCoy era and thoroughly enjoyed it. I can also see how many older fans didn't enjoy it as it was much darker than Doctors past. Doctor Who should be challenging. I think the new Who is far too light hearted and is trying to please the majority of its fan base, rather than challenging its audience.
McCoy is my favorite Doctor personally. It's always such a bummer when I get to the end of the last season on revisits to the old episodes. I even went and read the Virgin New Adventures of Doctor Who books that continue on with his incarnation of the Doctor. Some of them aren't great, but there are a bunch of really amazing ones too. Some of them were even used as a basis for nuWho episodes.
The McCoy era is very underrated. The pairing of the 7th Doctor and Ace was one of the best Doctor and companion combinations(up there with the 3rd Doctor and Jo - and the 4th Doctor and Leela) - they had such good chemistry, as well as the storylines going into why Ace wanted out of Perivale. Ghost Light is probably my favourite story from that era. It's a shame it got messed about by the BBC - they had lost faith in the show. I actually think McCoy could of done two more seasons(although he was only contracted to do one more), as the strength of the storylines was so good.
You COMPLETELY missed the most important scene of the Cartmel Masterplan. In The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, the advertisement beacon that materialises on the Tardis begins to taunt Ace about her being scared to go to the psychic circus while The Doctor smiles in the background. At first you would think The Doctor was smiling because he knows Ace will rise to the challenge of going to circus. BUT YOU WOULD BE WRONG. The Doctor is smiling because he knows Ace is being watched & manipulated by someone or thing, he had seen all the signs since Ice World but now it is confirmed for him : Ace is being manipulated by FENRIC & The Doctor has essentially won the battle from here on because he now has the advantage over Fenric. Watch how McCoy plays the scene, he is excellent. At first you think he is smiling because the beacon is challenging Ace, but when you realise he is smiling because the battle will soon be won & it shows The 7th Doctor is the most dangerous of all incarnations. McCoy plays it superbly.
And most fans overlook that the 2nd Doctor predate the little man manipulator. Besides introducing Comedy, Jelly Babies and Sonic Screwdriver. The 2nd Doctor was both cunning and ruthless!!!
The opening line to this video contains so much of the magic that was lost in the most recent few seasons of doctor who... Referencing other worlds where the sky is burning, the sea is dreaming, and cities made of song. I miss old doctor who.
I miss it too. I have developed an intense dislike of the revived version. It's so unoriginal; merely mining the original series for ideas. I can't watch it.
Survival was for sure one of the most appropriate names of an episode to date and this very last story of the classic series really felt in tone like it was never coming back and if it did would be far off in the future under completely new leadership and direction. That was what I overwhelmingly felt watching this serial way back in 1989 and here we are with the show back on screen and still on the air albeit on very shaky ground currently. It sure would have been most interesting to see what it would have been like if allowed to run into the 90's with the masterplan as I feel that there could have been some great episodes under this direction of a darker Doctor and more serious and dark serials.
The BBC wanted Richard Griffiths as the 8th Doctor and wanted a Regeneration by the end of Season 27 however the show runners and crew while open to a Regeneration wouldn't mind keeping Sylvester on a little longer and wouldn't of minded who they got, Richard Griffiths ofcourse there as a go to option all while Paul Mcgann really wanted to play the role which on Film he did and they wanted to keep an eye on him to play the Role Richard E Grant also wanted to play the role and they had an even closer eye on him
Yes it was cancelled at the wrong time, the last two seasons were some of the best seasons the show every made and the plans they were implementing were really interesting. When just one more season would have been great.
Exactly. The show had dissolved into irrelevance with poor storylines, weak acting and bargain basement visuals. Pulling the plug a few years earlier would have at least preserved its legacy a bit better.
I loved the idea of the 7th Doctor as a mystery man. I love the Arthur legend and how it was used in the 7th Doctor story Battlefield. The 7th Doctor and Ace were a brilliant combination.
Ghost light alongside Caves of Androzani (and Resurrection for me) were the best Dr Who stories of the 80's. Ghost Light was something from the Tom Baker heyday era, so atmospheric.
7 and Ace were great in the last two season and had so much potential but in many of the episodes you can tell the budget is so low. If only they had a larger budget, those seasons could have been amazing.
It was a real shame, as the later two seasons of McCoy's era, had really found their stride with a good relationship between the Doctor and Ace, McCoy really coming into his own as the Doctor and some decent storylines. I think McCoy could of done another two seasons. Alas, I think sci fi wasn't popular on TV at the time(although Star Trek : TNG had started in the USA) and that didn't help; also Dr. Who's scheduling in the mid week rather than a traditional Saturday night teatime TV slot.
Ghost Light was among best episodes of McCoy era. There were hints about creation of the Universe, origins of prehistoric man, elements of Light and Darkness even Anthropy, which represent as a Woman in strange hood. And fact that this same house that Ace had burned down as Child nearly 100 years later.
Doctor who should have not been cancelled in 1989 it should have continued on because series 26 and series 25 show that if doctor who continued it would have been more popular
They cancelled it at the worst time. Especially when Star Trek TNG’s third season would come along and the eventual explosion of popularity science fiction television would experience in the 90’s.
There was also an alternate ending to "Survival" in which, after the Doctor rescued himself and the Master, the Master would have confronted him and accused him of not being a Time Lord. The Doctor would counter that he wasn't "just" a Time Lord, describing himself as multi-talented before the Master made his escape. It's never been clear to me whether they actually filmed this or it was cut from the script during production.
9:51 I believe the reason why The Doctor brought Ace to 1800s Perivale and World War II Northumberland and Present Day Perivale was so Ace could face and conquer her demons and I suspect that maybe the reason why Ace hated her mother Audrey is that Audrey may have abused Ace.
You are bang on-ace was going to become an time lady ( the doctor was grooming her for a life on gallifrey) and that is when the fall out between the doctor and ace occurred: ace being fed up of the doctor's manipulations.
Then, Sarah Jane Adventures goes and mentions Ace running a company. The exact same company Big Finish says she runs, after graduating the Time Lord Academy, and helping Romana right up until the Time War with the Daleks breaks out, so Ace gets sent back to Earth, and her memory is erased, so she no longer remembers being a Time Lady. The Time Lords then remove Romana as Lady President and go get the Master to put him in charge. Whom flees half way through, so the Time Lords have to put Rassilon in charge.
From what l gathered Ace was expelled from the Time Lord academy and returned to Earth where she used certain technology to create A Charitable Earth ( as mentioned in the SJA adventures) She did what Sarah Jane did although on a more global scale and was due to meet with Sarah Jane had not Lis Sladen passed away in 2011.
Ace was not actually expelled. She graduated as a full fledged Time Lady, according to Big Finish. She was sent back to Earth, because the war with the Daleks had broken out. During her time on Gallifrey, she worked with the CIA, saved the Earth at least once, and helped Romana in her Presidency, right up until that war.
Great video, the McCoy-Aldred axis was a fantastic one, right up there with the best of previous Doctor-Companion duos. Season 24 quality aside, the fresh impetus of seasons 24-26 and McCoy's portrayal really do stand the test of time.
Great run through. I was 7 when it was cancelled but Sylvester McCoy’s Doctor and Aldred’s Ace were compelling viewing, and I was gutted when it was cancelled. I remember being very excited when they announced they were bringing it back for a TV movie in 1996, but was underwhelmed by McGann. (Largely because he wasn’t given a whole series) Sometimes I forget how much Doctor Who got me into Sci-Fi from a very young age.
Happiness Patrol was strange take upon Urban planning going terrifying wrong. And Greatest Show in the Galaxy with pychic circuse, pretty wild concepts
I liked both these stories. I was around 11 yrs old when they were originally broadcast. I remember them having a profound impact on me at the time. They were both very atmospheric and created a sense of worlds existing beyond my mundane childhood. For me, they were very successful.
As a Classic Who fan. I’m delighted to see this addressed! The OG fans getting jobs at BBC at that point would’ve been more than well suited to continue. But then again we may never have gotten Paul Mcgann. Who is my personal second favorite Doctor under Tom. If only Mcgann had topped Tom’s run in the 90s with the Time War happening in 2000! Imagine that
All these McCoy stories are key touchstones in my childhood. It developed my imagination and repaired some of the trauma from the harshness of Colin's Baker's character (great but problematic for a young child). A more light hearted on the surface but scheming Doctor was very much needed! Christopher Ecclestone carried this character trait on and the close relationship with his companion Rose in similarity to Ace!
I say the way classic Dr Who ended, was a shame in billions of ways and also the year series 26 was shown I was 20 and also I got my first real job since I quit school 4 year earlier aged 16 and also 1989 was not a great year for me and I would not return to it given half a chance.
Great summary! I loved Sylvester McCoy's Doctor and he perfectly prepared me for the mystery and uncertainty of the wider world since even the trusted Doctor can be manipulative and hide the truth at times!
The Sylvester McCoy era was when I started watching Doctor Who. I was 13. I enjoyed his comic book appearance where he meets and tricks the robotic bounty hunter Death's Head from the UK Transformers comic book. I'm still a huge Transformers fan. I liked the 96 US movie as well.
Fascinating vid! This era was my childhood introduction to the show and I loved it! I love McCoy's catchphrase "We're too nice!" (0:02) ;) I never noticed before that there weren't many TARDIS scenes, but now you mention it, that's a shame. I remember a really good one at the start of Greatest Show In The Galaxy, an episode which scared the bejeezers out of me! Oh there's a small editing error at 19:22 which you may wish to remove?
Haha. I go through the final cut at least half a dozen times before completing and have since watched it back on UA-cam a few times since and this is the first time I've heard it. I haven't got a clue how I missed it. I'm only human I suppose.
I have a policy of trying to get things "finished" weeks before their release, so I can check them over many times. It's amazing what a difference a little time makes in being able to spot errors! :-)
Yeah, it was a shame they ended it when it did, in the last 2 years the show started to really come back from the steady decline it had fallen into from Tom Bakers last year onwards. Suddenly, it was exciting to watch Dr Who again instead of just habit. Then it abruptly ended, although that final few lines from Sylvester McCoy's Doctor at the end were a beautiful send off.
Looked it up its an actor called Damon Jeffrey. He also played a Russian Commando in The Curse Of Fenric and was the body double for the Cheetah Person called Karra was Ace got friendly with. But I see were you're coming from.
Too soon in the sense of the storyline being curtailed. But with the lack of support from the BBC, I’m glad it didn’t trundle on with poor budgets (even in comparison to Red Dwarf), and abysmal scheduling. My mother was a die hard Corrie fan, and had watched Who from the 60’s, but chose Corrie over Who. It was amazing what they achieved in the late 80’s with that lack of support. But a break did the show some good in the long run.
I watched and loved classic Who here in the USA through the 80s and 90s on PBS. I was a kid at that time and not discerning on quality yet the show’s least favorite last few seasons were just as fun to me. When the 1996 movie came out I was among the very few outside of my household familiar with the show. Very interesting glimpse into what if for Doctor Who seasons 27 and beyond. Solid video!
Let's Face Facts it boils down to Once the Thatcher administration had Grasped they were being made the Villains in Doctor Who stories the time of Doctor Who staying on the air became a foregone conclusion!!!🤠👍
A Very well done piece this - you did a superb job explaining while delivering a balanced assessment on the final three seasons of original 'Doctor Who'. I don't think it gets fully appreciated today just *how* hostile the climate at the BBC became by 1985. Previous to this the series was still valued and there were no clouds at all in the sky - the 20th anniversary was such a successful landmark that when the first cancellation came in 1985 it was like a bolt from the clear blue sky - no one saw it coming. No one. And you can see, and feel, just how devastating this was on the Production team from the disintegration of the series (and office) come the next two seasons after - the confidence come Trial of a Timelord had almost dropped through the floor, and season 24 gave us a series that was still in shock from that Assassination attempt from the BBC 6th floor.... 1985. This is where the beginning of the end came. With a new upper managment at the corporation who were completely opposed to (British) science fiction, and actively looked down on it. Doctor Who had never had this sheer hostility from its upper managmeent before. Or since... and that says something profound about how poisonous Grade and Powell were at the BBC. But another consideration was the deathslot against Coronation Street. The Street was an absolute Juggernaut a this time, the absolute 'Eiger' of the television landscape. And the late 1980s were a particularly successful period for it. In 1987 for example Sylvester McCoy's first season was being run against the departure of the iconic Hilda Ogden. with 1988 and 89 came the legendary Alan Bradley/Rita Fairclough abuse plot, and this is the unnassailable opposition that a recovering 'Doctor Who' simply had no chance whatsoever of surviving against as virtually everybody was watching the Street by this time, all the talk was over the Alan Bradley/Rita Fairclough plot playing out on screens, and Doctor Who may as well have been playing on BBC2 at 2am in the morning.... it didn't matter HOW good the series was by this point, because outside of the fans no one was there to notice. _Or_ care...
I remember this time soo well. The whole bit with Trial of a Timelord went on way way too long. Granted the payoff was good but some of the machinations were just awful (what way for Peri to go out). McCoy was actually a breath of fresh air. Yes his first season was just downright awful. When that changed it got way more interesting. The introduction that he had other Timelord tech hidden was great and that other people recognized him from other times (Merlin). I still think that the Doctor as we know him is just another disguise. There's a story about how Rassilon and Omega created the Timelord society with their discovery of Time Travel. In that story it's mentioned they had help from another who never shows up again. Supposedly they threw themselves into the Gallifreyan Looms. What if that's what they wanted people to think. This would put the Doctor on an equal plain with both Rassilon and Omega. Neither would remember him since he's regenerated from what they remember him as. It would have been a darn sight better than the travesty that Chinballs and Jodie gave us. Unless Davies retcons this as some manipulation by the Galactic Toymaker. It will be fun for a few weeks then the people will leave with Tennant.
I don't think whether it was "the wrong time" mattered. Whether the show was turning around didn't matter. The ratings ultimately didn't matter. The BBC had wanted to cancel the show for years, only for their previous attempt to fail due to public outrage. The BBC's response was to effectively engineer a scenario that would both dampen interest and justify killing the show. Even if Season 27 had improved in both quality and ratings, the show would still have been running on borrowed time, because people in power didn't *want* it.
I'm forever greatful they bought Anthony Ainley back as the Master for the final story. His performance in this story was absolutely brilliant. I think all subsequent incarnations of the Master, with the exception of Derek Jacobi, have been terrible. But, I suppose Michelle Gomez wasn't too bad.
Interesting just how many ideas from this period resurfaced in new DW. It's also interesting that Turner, easily one of the worst DW showrunners until Chibnall, seemed to be truly dedicated to the show. In my mind, I'd assumed Turner was feckless and unconcerned about the show itself, turning it into a comical farce. It's something of a revelation to learn that he worked hard for the show.
While what I did like how they made the Doctor far more devious and introduced an aura of mystery . Ultimately the Cartmal Masterplan would have completely destroyed Doctor Who. There is a point where if you explain too much about the Doctor, make the past too dark, twisted or alien, you will put off the audience. There is something more appealing about a benevolent alien who went rouge to fight for good of the universe, then an alien who is fighting to avenger wrongs that were done to them. Sydney Newman understood that better than anyone, he killed any efforts to make the past Doctors definitive. They and Susan from earths future, nixed. That Doctor was actually a villain on the run, thrown out. Ultimately the best way to make the Doctor more interesting is to just introduce hints to their past…and not identify anything in stone.
I was always told that classic who got worse and worse untill it was finally put out of its misery, but watching series 25 and 26 it's genuinely shocking it was cancelled in retrospect. They are such strong series (which is probably a bit easier given how short they are) I do tend to think it was simply lingering dislike of the show from bbc higher ups that caused the cancellation.
It was a relief when it was cancelled. It had gone down the pan. A few of these stories stood out but Bonnie Langford and McCoy and the low budget sets really made watching this cringeworthy- for die hard fans it really was a relief to kill it off. Rot set in with Colin Baker.
McCoy was good in Battlefield I thought. Havent seen the other serials he was in. But 80s Who was weaker than 70s Who. Think the show benefitted from the strong popularity of the restart in 2000s but seems to be on a downslide in popularity and quality again. Hopefully it will avoid a repeat of the 80s fate.
It had promise but the writers were abysmal. The cast proved capable of making the most of horrible scripts, but there was no will in the BBC to support Dr Who, in fact the head of light entertainment had hus knife out, and just wanted to get rid. In the short time of Ace and the Doctor (forgetting the disastrous Mel before Ace) they proved more than adequate to resurect the show. But without the benefit of writers that understood the show or executives willing to support it, it was impossible to continue. It went out on a high with: • Remembrance of the Daleks • Silver Nemisis • Battlefield • Ghostlight • The Curse of Fenric Not there weren't some real bad ones: • Happiness Patrol • Greatest Show in the Galaxy
Given how they treated Tegan in Power of The Doctor I assume that Ace chose to leave for one reason or another, so having Ace mad at The Doctor despite choosing to leave of her own accord would match
I'm going to go against the flow and say, the series was canceled at the right time. The team behind it wasn't ever going to pull it out of the funk it was in especially when against Coronation Street. It needed a rest plus the masterplan I feel goes against the doctor. He's a outcast, a loser so pitiful that Gallifrey would laugh at him but Runcible existed. However he grew from a tiny Timelord to a titan on his own merits and from the influence of his companions. The events of Lungbarrow would remove that connection younger people have with the Doctor
i find it interesting the show got canceled the first time for the reasons it did compared today where the show has gone so off the rails and yet its still going strong(maybe) i mean there are so many conflicting reports about every show right now like season 3 of picard being the one of highest rated shows on paramount+ or season 3 of picard being one of the lower rated shows on paramount+ i have heard both reports.
Season 24 is one of the worst seasons of Doctor Who, but Season 25 is one of the best seasons, up there with my favourite Tom Baker seasons. Sylvester McCoy and Sophie Aldred really were one of the best duos the series had ever seen. They really needed one more season. It's a shame. I feel like the budget and perhaps years of extended title fatigue presented too large of an uphill battle for the show.
I liked Sylvester McCoy very much. He was the first Docter since Tom Baker that I really enjoyed watching. And Sophie Aldred was on her way to being a great actress.
I suppose in theory if Ace had become Lord President of Gallifrey, The Time War may have been averted, perhaps even won by The Timelords, The dalek Empire would be scattered and sparse but slowly over time they would consolidate their gains and try again, which would be in the NuWho.
Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt. S25&26 showed that Classic Who was capable of finding it’s steady footing again. It was unfortunately a victim of the new administration who has no love or respect for the series because it was from the old guard and the creators of Red Dwarf had to do a lot of convincing just to even get them to consider getting their series made with apathetic the BBC was about science fiction television during that time. In a world where Michael Punchface wasn’t the BBC Controller, Doctor Who could have enjoyed the success Star Trek TNG and Babylon 5 were enjoying in the 1990’s when science fiction shows strength to strength were enjoying a great deal of success not seen since the 1960’s had it continued past Season 26. Even space operas like Star Wars were going through a renewal of their own with the Expanded Universe initiative. On the other hand, Doctor Who’s expanded universe might either not exist as we know it or none at all including the entirety of Doctor Who Big Finish since that all came about after the original series was cancelled.
It was on the up again. It should have continued and allowed to come to an end gracefully with some epic story for the final episode with the final incarnation.
At the point of the Seventh Doctor, I’d moved on from Doctor Who to punk and metal music. But I came back when the Eighth Doctor movie came out. I started reading the New and Past Adventures and was amazed by what I missed. This was a great video that really sums up the era of the Seventh Doctor.
To be fair season 24 and that are really good so is Sylvester McCoy as the doctor and that and doctor who the movie is pretty good aswell. Doctor who should never have been cancelled and should never ever be cancelled again
I think Dr Who needed to go away for a bit but not for like 15 years. It needed maybe 3-4 years to get a new set of writers, directors, producers etc and a right budget for the show. I know Remembrance was brilliant but the show did look tired, cheap and needing a rest.
I do not rate the "Cartmel Masterplan" highly at all. It is obvious that the various script editors, producers and scriptwriters before Andrew Cartmel and JN-T had cared very little about continunity, and after a while any attempt to retroactively create a backstory for the Doctor was always going to end up looking clunky, amateurish and contrived, like trying to mash together several different jigsaws showing different Doctors from different angles. The execution was clumsy too. Without any explanation onscreen the Doctor was suddenly this different character from episode one of Season 25, and the whole endeavour seemed to revolve around things that kept happening off-screen - the Hand of Omega, the Nemesis Statue, Ace setting fire to Gabriel Chase, Fenric etc, none of which had ever been hinted at in previous stories because no one had come up with them yet. Furthermore, the actual origin story they kludged together - bleh. The only good thing about that was that JN-T wouldn't let it be televised. It might have got sci-fi and comic fans excited but it would have done nothing to attract a wider audience, that really just wanted more of what they'd been getting for 25 years, just a bit better written and produced.
Yes I have to agree Doctor Who was cancelling at precisely the wrong time. (Maybe the BBC did this intentionally too??) I liked Sylvester's and Sophie's dynamic in the show overtime and would have obviously been great to have seen Series 27.
While part of me wishes we could have seen more of Cartmel's vision realized on-screen, ultimately I feel it all worked out for the best in the long-run.
Tom -nightmare i know - should of been enticed back for a few years early 90's. Imagine..just imagine what we missed. I suppose an alternative timeline this has happened and glorious it was.
The McCoy era wasn’t just effected as a Dear John letter to fans with its cancellation but unlike most Who season. It was short with only 4 stories whereas most were 7 stories per season. The Cartmel team was so innovative with their ideas that it needed more. The proposed Season 27 would have been fun but the pace killer is McCoy would have opt out of the show and would have needed to cast a 8th Doctor on a Show that is questionable in longevity for the 90s forward pre 1996. The WILDERNESS YEARS did help with fans ,creativity and hope. The 7th and Ace would have a great mystique of the continuity alone. What Cartmel delivered in the return of the Mystery. Chibnall Destroyed the Who legacy with the Timeless Child(there were rumors that during his tenure as executive, Steven Moffat was going to reveal the Doctor by his actual real name?!?!) It is a great dilemma here of what could have been. I think it is good that in 1989 it ended with the 80s alone and the closing speech in Survival matches.
The Cartmel Masterplan was actually carried out in the New Adventure Novel series, culminating in Lungbarrow. So if you want to read how it would play out, you can just buy the books and recoil in horror Lungbarrow basically was the payoff and was so fuckng reviled that everyone sighed in relief when RTD said he wasn't going to acknowledge it as canon in the revival.
@@jessebaker2769 Reviled? I think the Lungbarrow was more controversial because of what it details and what it discloses about the Doctor’s past. Plus RTD isn’t in any place to decide Lungbarrow’s canonicity when his own tenure saw Love & Monsters and 42 happen.
@Ray Venkman You obviously were not online in the late 90s/early 00s before the revival of the show under RTD. Lungbarrow was THAT fucking reviled and pretty much ensured the Cartmel Masterplan was looked at as a massive bullet that the show/franchise dodged while it was on the air. Along with why the New Adventures novel series fell from grace in fandom eyes, since the chief selling point of the whole thing was "We are going to do the Cartmel Masterplan!" and the payoff being a disaster of epic proportions. To the point of Lungbarrow being the novel tie-in equivalent of Twin Dilemma in terms of "absolute nadir of the franchise".
In the end, it was just another beginning... Thank you for this video and thank you to Sylvester McCoy and Sophie Aldred for the Seventh Doctor and Ace (Dorothy Gale/McShane/?)...
Looking back the sets, costumes and effects have aged terribly. Shows like Star Trek TNG were (pardon the pun) light years ahead of 80's Dr Who (although to be fair TNG S1 was probably just as bad in terms of writing and storylines as season 24 of Dr Who)
McCoy's final series was improving with darker stories and a meaner Doctor. He proved that he was up amongst the best though his early stories were pure pantomime.
The shows tineslot was moved to counxide wirh Coronation Street on purpose because the bastard Michael Grade hated anything to do with science fiction and did everything he could to kill it, because he knew that nobody would miss Corrie for Docror Who Even now, he acts very proud of himself over what he did
A decision that cost the BBC a lot of profits they could have of earned when the 1990’s rolled in but given where Micheal Grade is at today, some things never change.
It would not have survived even if it was pitted against songs of praise , it was just not popular anymore , I loved doctor who , 3 , 4 , 5 and most of 6 , I had tuned out by 7 and so had everyone else
Good, well balanced overview that concurs with my experience of Dr Who. The BBC is far too much a tool of the establishment to really understand what they created is more than just another children's TV show to be discarded in favour of saving money for more worthwhile products.
I agree that it was cancelled too soon. Sylvester McCoy was an underrated Doctor, and a number of fans agree that he and Ace were the prototypes for the modern Doctor and female companions.
Absolutely! Season 25 and 26 are some of the finest seasons of Doctor Who and I think some really interesting things were being set up but alas, the BBC clearly didn't feel the same way and had active contempt for the show so sadly it was inevitable they were going to axe it no matter what which sucks. I'm glad the BBC of today view Doctor Who as the valuable and important property it is, it helps that the people in charge today grew up as fans of the show themselves so they have much more love for it than the suits did in the 80s.
Even if the first serial was not the best, I'd argue that the rest of season 24 was pretty good. Mel was an underrated companion stuff like Delta and the Bannermen and Paradise Towers were really good.
My take is that the best place for the classic show to have ended is on The Five Doctors. It works as a rest-point, it's enough of a point of intrigue to hang things on, whilst sparing us the worst of what came immediately after. I appreciate what Cartmel was doing to attempt a repair job on the show, but if I were to take a sober judgment, I'd have to say McCoy's era overall feels rather scattershot and messy, and occasionally its left field moments of melodrama and political hectoring just stick in the throat. Remembrance of the Daleks is the only one I can think of as a bone fide success. Greatest Show in the Galaxy's a lot of fun but feels like it belongs to a different show entirely. I guess I can say it left the show on a better note than Trial of a Time Lord had, and I am glad I got Remembrance out of the deal. I just can't help feel it's a tad overrated as an era.
While I am a fan of McCoy's era, I have to admit that I find myself agreeing that The Five Doctors seemed to the the show's last hurrah, since not long after came Warriors of the Deep, which looking back seems to have been the point where the show entered an irreversible decline (and gave Michael Grave the scene he used to peddle around to champion cancelling the show), and even the high points of McCoy's run under Cartmel, with as much goodwill as they have, were not enough.
@@colemacgrath2005 I have some issues with it. The Ace melodrama stuff never really worked for me, and the more glorified portrayal of the Soviet soldiers in it rather irked me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought season 24 was childish. Especially Paradise Towers. Urgh. Even The Happiness Patrol was dire. But the rest were an improvement.
Like this? Take a look at my video on the end of the 4th Doctor era- ua-cam.com/video/kueQhXQ50AY/v-deo.html
did you drink before making this video? Sheesh
There's the argument, of course, that it should never have been cancelled.
Ergo, any time would have been "the wrong time", right?
I'd agree that it was cancelled too soon as Season's 25 and 26 showed vast improvement from the previous season's
I'd disagree. Being put on hiatus at that time preserved its legacy for the future. Could you imagine how bad 90s who would have been with Uncle Vernon as the Doctor? That would have been the final nail in the coffin.
25 was a slight improvement but 26 was a car crash - poorly-structured stories written by inexperienced script-writers.
@@purefoldnz3070 I agree with your point, but at the time, there was so much that appeared ahead and possible as the McCoy and Aldred team had gelled. I had bought back into the show, really for the first time since Peter had left… I think it was an age thing… and I really loved McCoy and Ace. The Dalek episodes were landmarks.
So, yeah. I see what you’re saying. The break of those years with only the single eighth Doctor movie popping up certainly set the stage for 9’s return with a vengeance
@@papadopp3870 yeah exactly, otherwise the show would have burned itself out and when it did return it would have been a complete reboot.
The 7th Doctor was a terrific Doctor, and Ace is the best companion in the whole series.
Ace should have been the first female Doctor. She should have been trained to become a Timelord, and slowly developed into the Doctor's successor.
Instead, the show got canceled, and rebooted into something that was great early on, and then proceeded to make many of the same mistakes that drove the original series into the ground.
Bad casting, shoehorned, badly written nutjob political commentary, schizophrenic direction, bad villain of the week stories, etc etc. Chibnall learned nothing from the mistakes of his predecessors.
The McCoy era reintroduced the mystery of The Doctor. Some great scripts and very fine acting added to the delightfully dark atmosphere. It's a shame we couldn't have had a couple more seasons of this.
@@Georgie_R I totally reject the Chibnall attempt to change the established continuity in favour of his own chaotic mess. The idea of the Fugitive Doctor is a muddled horrible concept, and the Timeless Children thing, while it COULD be worked into the established continuity, raises too many questions and quagmires to make it viable. My hope is that RTD will "explain away" the whole Chibnall era. I really do.
@@Georgie_R I can pretty much agree with that analysis. I too kind of liked The Timeless Child thing, but I just feel it rather confuses things....but then, look at The War Doctor, which completely messed up the numbering system (still LOVED John Hurt though). Jo Martin was great as a possible past Doctor, but I just can never accept anyone as the FIRST Doctor other than Hartnell (and David Bradley). I absolutely adore Bill's era and his characterization of The Doctor. And to be honest, I really loved the TV movie (Enemy Within) and The Timeless child does mess that up a bit (The Doctor couldn't have had a human mother if he was also the mysterious regenerating child).
@@Georgie_R That's true. The first Doctor wouldn't remember the Jo Martin Doctor. Hadn't thought of that. And do NOT get me started on UNIT dating!
@@Dalekzilla Well.. RTD kinda did that for TTC. I do like that he's tackling the emotional side of it.
The last two McCoy seasons were so awesome, so dark & creative. The companion dynamic of Ace & Doctor was so fun , and intriguing.
It's a shame , they gave up on the show , cause it was at a creative height relative to the John Pertwee years.
Absolute rubbish. The Sylvester McCoy era was a joke. Not even a funny joke. No wonder it was cancelled, I still can't watch it. Bonnie Langford? That was enough for me. How she still gets work is a bigger mystery than Dr.Who....
@@bendream544 *gasp*! An opinion! That I don't agree with!?
What *Rubbish*!
I agree! I grew up on the McCoy era and thoroughly enjoyed it. I can also see how many older fans didn't enjoy it as it was much darker than Doctors past. Doctor Who should be challenging. I think the new Who is far too light hearted and is trying to please the majority of its fan base, rather than challenging its audience.
McCoy is my favorite Doctor personally. It's always such a bummer when I get to the end of the last season on revisits to the old episodes. I even went and read the Virgin New Adventures of Doctor Who books that continue on with his incarnation of the Doctor. Some of them aren't great, but there are a bunch of really amazing ones too. Some of them were even used as a basis for nuWho episodes.
The McCoy era is very underrated. The pairing of the 7th Doctor and Ace was one of the best Doctor and companion combinations(up there with the 3rd Doctor and Jo - and the 4th Doctor and Leela) - they had such good chemistry, as well as the storylines going into why Ace wanted out of Perivale. Ghost Light is probably my favourite story from that era.
It's a shame it got messed about by the BBC - they had lost faith in the show. I actually think McCoy could of done two more seasons(although he was only contracted to do one more), as the strength of the storylines was so good.
You COMPLETELY missed the most important scene of the Cartmel Masterplan. In The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, the advertisement beacon that materialises on the Tardis begins to taunt Ace about her being scared to go to the psychic circus while The Doctor smiles in the background. At first you would think The Doctor was smiling because he knows Ace will rise to the challenge of going to circus. BUT YOU WOULD BE WRONG. The Doctor is smiling because he knows Ace is being watched & manipulated by someone or thing, he had seen all the signs since Ice World but now it is confirmed for him : Ace is being manipulated by FENRIC & The Doctor has essentially won the battle from here on because he now has the advantage over Fenric. Watch how McCoy plays the scene, he is excellent. At first you think he is smiling because the beacon is challenging Ace, but when you realise he is smiling because the battle will soon be won & it shows The 7th Doctor is the most dangerous of all incarnations. McCoy plays it superbly.
Interesting, if hugely fanciful, interpretation of things that were never intended on screen.
@@CardiffOneOne no it was intended, I heard both McCoy & Cartmel discuss that particular scene at a convention
And most fans overlook that the 2nd Doctor predate the little man manipulator. Besides introducing Comedy, Jelly Babies and Sonic Screwdriver. The 2nd Doctor was both cunning and ruthless!!!
The opening line to this video contains so much of the magic that was lost in the most recent few seasons of doctor who... Referencing other worlds where the sky is burning, the sea is dreaming, and cities made of song. I miss old doctor who.
I miss it too.
I have developed an intense dislike of the revived version. It's so unoriginal; merely mining the original series for ideas. I can't watch it.
@@anthony-kelly I just rewatched Human Nature/Family of Blood. It stands up to anything in the entire series.
Survival was for sure one of the most appropriate names of an episode to date and this very last story of the classic series really felt in tone like it was never coming back and if it did would be far off in the future under completely new leadership and direction. That was what I overwhelmingly felt watching this serial way back in 1989 and here we are with the show back on screen and still on the air albeit on very shaky ground currently. It sure would have been most interesting to see what it would have been like if allowed to run into the 90's with the masterplan as I feel that there could have been some great episodes under this direction of a darker Doctor and more serious and dark serials.
The BBC wanted Richard Griffiths as the 8th Doctor and wanted a Regeneration by the end of Season 27 however the show runners and crew while open to a Regeneration wouldn't mind keeping Sylvester on a little longer and wouldn't of minded who they got, Richard Griffiths ofcourse there as a go to option
all while Paul Mcgann really wanted to play the role which on Film he did and they wanted to keep an eye on him to play the Role Richard E Grant also wanted to play the role and they had an even closer eye on him
Yes it was cancelled at the wrong time, the last two seasons were some of the best seasons the show every made and the plans they were implementing were really interesting.
When just one more season would have been great.
Unfortunately no one cared back then I'm old enough to remember
Exactly. The show had dissolved into irrelevance with poor storylines, weak acting and bargain basement visuals. Pulling the plug a few years earlier would have at least preserved its legacy a bit better.
I loved the idea of the 7th Doctor as a mystery man. I love the Arthur legend and how it was used in the 7th Doctor story Battlefield. The 7th Doctor and Ace were a brilliant combination.
Ghost light alongside Caves of Androzani (and Resurrection for me) were the best Dr Who stories of the 80's. Ghost Light was something from the Tom Baker heyday era, so atmospheric.
Absolutely Agree as could easily fit a Tom Baker era storyline.
As much as I dislike most of Chris Chibnall‘s work, power of the doctor was a pretty nice love letter to 80s who
The scenes with 7th and Ace and 5th and Tegan were brilliant and touching.
Which is funny because there is footage of him attacking it on the bbc as a young man in the 80s.
Yeah love that Chris and Russel teamed up for that one.
@@OMARA.OFFICIALRussell T Davies didn’t write The Power of the Doctor.
Chibnall destroyed what remaining interest I had in the revived series. What he did to the show was simply appalling.
7 and Ace were great in the last two season and had so much potential but in many of the episodes you can tell the budget is so low. If only they had a larger budget, those seasons could have been amazing.
It was a real shame, as the later two seasons of McCoy's era, had really found their stride with a good relationship between the Doctor and Ace, McCoy really coming into his own as the Doctor and some decent storylines. I think McCoy could of done another two seasons. Alas, I think sci fi wasn't popular on TV at the time(although Star Trek : TNG had started in the USA) and that didn't help; also Dr. Who's scheduling in the mid week rather than a traditional Saturday night teatime TV slot.
Fenric and Ghost Light are the best 2 Doc stories ever made. The plots are genius. The scripts beautiful.
Nonsense
Genesis of the Daleks is my personal best ever Doctor Who story ever made.
Ghost Light was among best episodes of McCoy era. There were hints about creation of the Universe, origins of prehistoric man, elements of Light and Darkness even Anthropy, which represent as a Woman in strange hood. And fact that this same house that Ace had burned down as Child nearly 100 years later.
@@CardiffOneOneWhy?
Doctor who should have not been cancelled in 1989 it should have continued on because series 26 and series 25 show that if doctor who continued it would have been more popular
They cancelled it at the worst time. Especially when Star Trek TNG’s third season would come along and the eventual explosion of popularity science fiction television would experience in the 90’s.
There was also an alternate ending to "Survival" in which, after the Doctor rescued himself and the Master, the Master would have confronted him and accused him of not being a Time Lord. The Doctor would counter that he wasn't "just" a Time Lord, describing himself as multi-talented before the Master made his escape. It's never been clear to me whether they actually filmed this or it was cut from the script during production.
I get the impression it wasn't filmed or else it would have more than likely shown up as a DVD extra.
9:51 I believe the reason why The Doctor brought Ace to 1800s Perivale and World War II Northumberland and Present Day Perivale was so Ace could face and conquer her demons and I suspect that maybe the reason why Ace hated her mother Audrey is that Audrey may have abused Ace.
What nonsense. Stick to what's on screen...if you have to imagine stuff like this then the scripts clearly haven't done their job.
@@CardiffOneOne Think about it.
You are bang on-ace was going to become an time lady ( the doctor was grooming her for a life on gallifrey) and that is when the fall out between the doctor and ace occurred: ace being fed up of the doctor's manipulations.
Then, Sarah Jane Adventures goes and mentions Ace running a company.
The exact same company Big Finish says she runs, after graduating the Time Lord Academy, and helping Romana right up until the Time War with the Daleks breaks out, so Ace gets sent back to Earth, and her memory is erased, so she no longer remembers being a Time Lady.
The Time Lords then remove Romana as Lady President and go get the Master to put him in charge.
Whom flees half way through, so the Time Lords have to put Rassilon in charge.
I don't like that idea, because then it kinda defeats the point of them being aliens if humans can just become time lords?
@@Mitch93 Time Lord is a rank, not a species. Gallifreyans are still aliens.
From what l gathered Ace was expelled from the Time Lord academy and returned to Earth where she used certain technology to create A Charitable Earth ( as mentioned in the SJA adventures)
She did what Sarah Jane did although on a more global scale and was due to meet with Sarah Jane had not Lis Sladen passed away in 2011.
Ace was not actually expelled. She graduated as a full fledged Time Lady, according to Big Finish.
She was sent back to Earth, because the war with the Daleks had broken out.
During her time on Gallifrey, she worked with the CIA, saved the Earth at least once, and helped Romana in her Presidency, right up until that war.
Great video, the McCoy-Aldred axis was a fantastic one, right up there with the best of previous Doctor-Companion duos. Season 24 quality aside, the fresh impetus of seasons 24-26 and McCoy's portrayal really do stand the test of time.
Great run through. I was 7 when it was cancelled but Sylvester McCoy’s Doctor and Aldred’s Ace were compelling viewing, and I was gutted when it was cancelled. I remember being very excited when they announced they were bringing it back for a TV movie in 1996, but was underwhelmed by McGann. (Largely because he wasn’t given a whole series) Sometimes I forget how much Doctor Who got me into Sci-Fi from a very young age.
Happiness Patrol was strange take upon Urban planning going terrifying wrong. And Greatest Show in the Galaxy with pychic circuse, pretty wild concepts
I liked both these stories.
I was around 11 yrs old when they were originally broadcast. I remember them having a profound impact on me at the time. They were both very atmospheric and created a sense of worlds existing beyond my mundane childhood. For me, they were very successful.
As a Classic Who fan. I’m delighted to see this addressed! The OG fans getting jobs at BBC at that point would’ve been more than well suited to continue. But then again we may never have gotten Paul Mcgann. Who is my personal second favorite Doctor under Tom. If only Mcgann had topped Tom’s run in the 90s with the Time War happening in 2000! Imagine that
All these McCoy stories are key touchstones in my childhood. It developed my imagination and repaired some of the trauma from the harshness of Colin's Baker's character (great but problematic for a young child). A more light hearted on the surface but scheming Doctor was very much needed! Christopher Ecclestone carried this character trait on and the close relationship with his companion Rose in similarity to Ace!
I say the way classic Dr Who ended, was a shame in billions of ways and also the year series 26 was shown I was 20 and also I got my first real job since I quit school 4 year earlier aged 16 and also 1989 was not a great year for me and I would not return to it given half a chance.
Great summary! I loved Sylvester McCoy's Doctor and he perfectly prepared me for the mystery and uncertainty of the wider world since even the trusted Doctor can be manipulative and hide the truth at times!
The Sylvester McCoy era was when I started watching Doctor Who. I was 13. I enjoyed his comic book appearance where he meets and tricks the robotic bounty hunter Death's Head from the UK Transformers comic book. I'm still a huge Transformers fan.
I liked the 96 US movie as well.
Fascinating vid! This era was my childhood introduction to the show and I loved it! I love McCoy's catchphrase "We're too nice!" (0:02) ;) I never noticed before that there weren't many TARDIS scenes, but now you mention it, that's a shame. I remember a really good one at the start of Greatest Show In The Galaxy, an episode which scared the bejeezers out of me! Oh there's a small editing error at 19:22 which you may wish to remove?
Haha. I go through the final cut at least half a dozen times before completing and have since watched it back on UA-cam a few times since and this is the first time I've heard it. I haven't got a clue how I missed it. I'm only human I suppose.
@@TheWatcherOnWho Yeah this happens, I'm just the same! :-)
I have a policy of trying to get things "finished" weeks before their release, so I can check them over many times. It's amazing what a difference a little time makes in being able to spot errors! :-)
Yeah, it was a shame they ended it when it did, in the last 2 years the show started to really come back from the steady decline it had fallen into from Tom Bakers last year onwards. Suddenly, it was exciting to watch Dr Who again instead of just habit. Then it abruptly ended, although that final few lines from Sylvester McCoy's Doctor at the end were a beautiful send off.
That guy washing his car- l swear to God that's Thomas Dolby!!!
Looked it up its an actor called Damon Jeffrey. He also played a Russian Commando in The Curse Of Fenric and was the body double for the Cheetah Person called Karra was Ace got friendly with. But I see were you're coming from.
Too soon in the sense of the storyline being curtailed. But with the lack of support from the BBC, I’m glad it didn’t trundle on with poor budgets (even in comparison to Red Dwarf), and abysmal scheduling. My mother was a die hard Corrie fan, and had watched Who from the 60’s, but chose Corrie over Who. It was amazing what they achieved in the late 80’s with that lack of support. But a break did the show some good in the long run.
I watched and loved classic Who here in the USA through the 80s and 90s on PBS. I was a kid at that time and not discerning on quality yet the show’s least favorite last few seasons were just as fun to me. When the 1996 movie came out I was among the very few outside of my household familiar with the show. Very interesting glimpse into what if for Doctor Who seasons 27 and beyond. Solid video!
Let's Face Facts it boils down to Once the Thatcher administration had Grasped they were being made the Villains in Doctor Who stories the time of Doctor Who staying on the air became a foregone conclusion!!!🤠👍
A Very well done piece this - you did a superb job explaining while delivering a balanced assessment on the final three seasons of original 'Doctor Who'.
I don't think it gets fully appreciated today just *how* hostile the climate at the BBC became by 1985. Previous to this the series was still valued and there were no clouds at all in the sky - the 20th anniversary was such a successful landmark that when the first cancellation came in 1985 it was like a bolt from the clear blue sky - no one saw it coming. No one. And you can see, and feel, just how devastating this was on the Production team from the disintegration of the series (and office) come the next two seasons after - the confidence come Trial of a Timelord had almost dropped through the floor, and season 24 gave us a series that was still in shock from that Assassination attempt from the BBC 6th floor....
1985. This is where the beginning of the end came. With a new upper managment at the corporation who were completely opposed to (British) science fiction, and actively looked down on it. Doctor Who had never had this sheer hostility from its upper managmeent before. Or since... and that says something profound about how poisonous Grade and Powell were at the BBC.
But another consideration was the deathslot against Coronation Street. The Street was an absolute Juggernaut a this time, the absolute 'Eiger' of the television landscape. And the late 1980s were a particularly successful period for it. In 1987 for example Sylvester McCoy's first season was being run against the departure of the iconic Hilda Ogden. with 1988 and 89 came the legendary Alan Bradley/Rita Fairclough abuse plot, and this is the unnassailable opposition that a recovering 'Doctor Who' simply had no chance whatsoever of surviving against as virtually everybody was watching the Street by this time, all the talk was over the Alan Bradley/Rita Fairclough plot playing out on screens, and Doctor Who may as well have been playing on BBC2 at 2am in the morning.... it didn't matter HOW good the series was by this point, because outside of the fans no one was there to notice. _Or_ care...
I remember this time soo well. The whole bit with Trial of a Timelord went on way way too long. Granted the payoff was good but some of the machinations were just awful (what way for Peri to go out). McCoy was actually a breath of fresh air. Yes his first season was just downright awful. When that changed it got way more interesting. The introduction that he had other Timelord tech hidden was great and that other people recognized him from other times (Merlin).
I still think that the Doctor as we know him is just another disguise. There's a story about how Rassilon and Omega created the Timelord society with their discovery of Time Travel. In that story it's mentioned they had help from another who never shows up again. Supposedly they threw themselves into the Gallifreyan Looms. What if that's what they wanted people to think. This would put the Doctor on an equal plain with both Rassilon and Omega. Neither would remember him since he's regenerated from what they remember him as.
It would have been a darn sight better than the travesty that Chinballs and Jodie gave us. Unless Davies retcons this as some manipulation by the Galactic Toymaker. It will be fun for a few weeks then the people will leave with Tennant.
I think what Chibnal has done has put the show cannon in a position that it cant be undone. To contrived to undo as it were.
I don't think whether it was "the wrong time" mattered. Whether the show was turning around didn't matter. The ratings ultimately didn't matter. The BBC had wanted to cancel the show for years, only for their previous attempt to fail due to public outrage. The BBC's response was to effectively engineer a scenario that would both dampen interest and justify killing the show. Even if Season 27 had improved in both quality and ratings, the show would still have been running on borrowed time, because people in power didn't *want* it.
I'm forever greatful they bought Anthony Ainley back as the Master for the final story.
His performance in this story was absolutely brilliant.
I think all subsequent incarnations of the Master, with the exception of Derek Jacobi, have been terrible. But, I suppose Michelle Gomez wasn't too bad.
Interesting just how many ideas from this period resurfaced in new DW.
It's also interesting that Turner, easily one of the worst DW showrunners until Chibnall, seemed to be truly dedicated to the show.
In my mind, I'd assumed Turner was feckless and unconcerned about the show itself, turning it into a comical farce. It's something of a revelation to learn that he worked hard for the show.
While what I did like how they made the Doctor far more devious and introduced an aura of mystery . Ultimately the Cartmal Masterplan would have completely destroyed Doctor Who.
There is a point where if you explain too much about the Doctor, make the past too dark, twisted or alien, you will put off the audience. There is something more appealing about a benevolent alien who went rouge to fight for good of the universe, then an alien who is fighting to avenger wrongs that were done to them.
Sydney Newman understood that better than anyone, he killed any efforts to make the past Doctors definitive. They and Susan from earths future, nixed. That Doctor was actually a villain on the run, thrown out.
Ultimately the best way to make the Doctor more interesting is to just introduce hints to their past…and not identify anything in stone.
I think Cartmel was trying to do that, but again, how much of it would have survived the planning process we don't know.
Cartmel was always planning to leave it all unresolved for future writers to deal with.
I was always told that classic who got worse and worse untill it was finally put out of its misery, but watching series 25 and 26 it's genuinely shocking it was cancelled in retrospect. They are such strong series (which is probably a bit easier given how short they are) I do tend to think it was simply lingering dislike of the show from bbc higher ups that caused the cancellation.
It was a relief when it was cancelled. It had gone down the pan. A few of these stories stood out but Bonnie Langford and McCoy and the low budget sets really made watching this cringeworthy- for die hard fans it really was a relief to kill it off. Rot set in with Colin Baker.
@@Cantrip1957 Preach
McCoy was good in Battlefield I thought. Havent seen the other serials he was in. But 80s Who was weaker than 70s Who. Think the show benefitted from the strong popularity of the restart in 2000s but seems to be on a downslide in popularity and quality again. Hopefully it will avoid a repeat of the 80s fate.
Is Nicholas Briggs related to Ian Briggs?
Don't think they are. Would be amazing if they were.
No, and Georgia Moffat isn't related to Steven Moffat either.
Excellent! Always look forward to your analysis videos 👍
Thanks
It had promise but the writers were abysmal. The cast proved capable of making the most of horrible scripts, but there was no will in the BBC to support Dr Who, in fact the head of light entertainment had hus knife out, and just wanted to get rid.
In the short time of Ace and the Doctor (forgetting the disastrous Mel before Ace) they proved more than adequate to resurect the show. But without the benefit of writers that understood the show or executives willing to support it, it was impossible to continue.
It went out on a high with:
• Remembrance of the Daleks
• Silver Nemisis
• Battlefield
• Ghostlight
• The Curse of Fenric
Not there weren't some real bad ones:
• Happiness Patrol
• Greatest Show in the Galaxy
Given how they treated Tegan in Power of The Doctor I assume that Ace chose to leave for one reason or another, so having Ace mad at The Doctor despite choosing to leave of her own accord would match
I'm going to go against the flow and say, the series was canceled at the right time.
The team behind it wasn't ever going to pull it out of the funk it was in especially when against Coronation Street.
It needed a rest plus the masterplan I feel goes against the doctor.
He's a outcast, a loser so pitiful that Gallifrey would laugh at him but Runcible existed.
However he grew from a tiny Timelord to a titan on his own merits and from the influence of his companions.
The events of Lungbarrow would remove that connection younger people have with the Doctor
Never against the flow. More expressing your opinion which everyone is free to do here.
i find it interesting the show got canceled the first time for the reasons it did compared today where the show has gone so off the rails and yet its still going strong(maybe) i mean there are so many conflicting reports about every show right now like season 3 of picard being the one of highest rated shows on paramount+ or season 3 of picard being one of the lower rated shows on paramount+ i have heard both reports.
Ask the then DG Michael Grade, he hated Dr Who. Considering the money making potential it was a very bad decision.
Thank you, for your analysis, and dedication to this era of Who!
You're welcome
Had they not cancelled the show I think McCoy could’ve been the doctor for 4/5 years or possibly more
Assuming he wanted to. He was contemplating season 26 or 27 had they been made would have been his last.
It literally didn't dawn on me until I watched this video that the 7th doctor wore a darker coat for his final season
Season 24 is one of the worst seasons of Doctor Who, but Season 25 is one of the best seasons, up there with my favourite Tom Baker seasons.
Sylvester McCoy and Sophie Aldred really were one of the best duos the series had ever seen. They really needed one more season. It's a shame. I feel like the budget and perhaps years of extended title fatigue presented too large of an uphill battle for the show.
Its a shame they only made four stories a season
I liked Sylvester McCoy very much. He was the first Docter since Tom Baker that I really enjoyed watching. And Sophie Aldred was on her way to being a great actress.
Very good video! Unrelated but I'm your 1000th subscriber so congrats on 1K : )
You're welcome and thank you very much to becoming subscriber number 1000.
I suppose in theory if Ace had become Lord President of Gallifrey, The Time War may have been averted, perhaps even won by The Timelords, The dalek Empire would be scattered and sparse but slowly over time they would consolidate their gains and try again, which would be in the NuWho.
Aliens(except for leela & Nyssa)were forbidden to live or visit gallifrey, so the ace on gallifrey thing wouldn't have been capable.
Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt.
S25&26 showed that Classic Who was capable of finding it’s steady footing again. It was unfortunately a victim of the new administration who has no love or respect for the series because it was from the old guard and the creators of Red Dwarf had to do a lot of convincing just to even get them to consider getting their series made with apathetic the BBC was about science fiction television during that time.
In a world where Michael Punchface wasn’t the BBC Controller, Doctor Who could have enjoyed the success Star Trek TNG and Babylon 5 were enjoying in the 1990’s when science fiction shows strength to strength were enjoying a great deal of success not seen since the 1960’s had it continued past Season 26. Even space operas like Star Wars were going through a renewal of their own with the Expanded Universe initiative.
On the other hand, Doctor Who’s expanded universe might either not exist as we know it or none at all including the entirety of Doctor Who Big Finish since that all came about after the original series was cancelled.
Actually it wasn't Michael Grade who cancelled the show in 1989, in fact he'd left the BBC by then. It was actually a guy called Peter Creegan
It was on the up again. It should have continued and allowed to come to an end gracefully with some epic story for the final episode with the final incarnation.
At the point of the Seventh Doctor, I’d moved on from Doctor Who to punk and metal music. But I came back when the Eighth Doctor movie came out. I started reading the New and Past Adventures and was amazed by what I missed. This was a great video that really sums up the era of the Seventh Doctor.
thanks
To be fair season 24 and that are really good so is Sylvester McCoy as the doctor and that and doctor who the movie is pretty good aswell. Doctor who should never have been cancelled and should never ever be cancelled again
I still can't get over the fact that Ace made a return to the show.
I remember at the time Doctor Who really was at the back of people's minds no one cared back then
McCoy was so bad, that even I stopped watching.
The final straw was when the baddie became Bertie Bassett, of liquorice allsorts fame.
@@tooleyheadbang4239 The 7th is often regarded as the best incarnation.
@@purefoldnz3070 Bassett would have been a better Who...
I think Dr Who needed to go away for a bit but not for like 15 years. It needed maybe 3-4 years to get a new set of writers, directors, producers etc and a right budget for the show. I know Remembrance was brilliant but the show did look tired, cheap and needing a rest.
It was ENDED according to the parlance of the time or put on hiatus. Cancelled was a daft way of putting it back then.
I do not rate the "Cartmel Masterplan" highly at all. It is obvious that the various script editors, producers and scriptwriters before Andrew Cartmel and JN-T had cared very little about continunity, and after a while any attempt to retroactively create a backstory for the Doctor was always going to end up looking clunky, amateurish and contrived, like trying to mash together several different jigsaws showing different Doctors from different angles.
The execution was clumsy too. Without any explanation onscreen the Doctor was suddenly this different character from episode one of Season 25, and the whole endeavour seemed to revolve around things that kept happening off-screen - the Hand of Omega, the Nemesis Statue, Ace setting fire to Gabriel Chase, Fenric etc, none of which had ever been hinted at in previous stories because no one had come up with them yet.
Furthermore, the actual origin story they kludged together - bleh. The only good thing about that was that JN-T wouldn't let it be televised. It might have got sci-fi and comic fans excited but it would have done nothing to attract a wider audience, that really just wanted more of what they'd been getting for 25 years, just a bit better written and produced.
Yes I have to agree Doctor Who was cancelling at precisely the wrong time. (Maybe the BBC did this intentionally too??) I liked Sylvester's and Sophie's dynamic in the show overtime and would have obviously been great to have seen Series 27.
While part of me wishes we could have seen more of Cartmel's vision realized on-screen, ultimately I feel it all worked out for the best in the long-run.
Tom -nightmare i know - should of been enticed back for a few years early 90's. Imagine..just imagine what we missed. I suppose an alternative timeline this has happened and glorious it was.
The McCoy era wasn’t just effected as a Dear John letter to fans with its cancellation but unlike most Who season. It was short with only 4 stories whereas most were 7 stories per season.
The Cartmel team was so innovative with their ideas that it needed more.
The proposed Season 27 would have been fun but the pace killer is McCoy would have opt out of the show and would have needed to cast a 8th Doctor on a Show that is questionable in longevity for the 90s forward pre 1996.
The WILDERNESS YEARS did help with fans ,creativity and hope. The 7th and Ace would have a great mystique of the continuity alone.
What Cartmel delivered in the return of the Mystery.
Chibnall Destroyed the Who legacy with the Timeless Child(there were rumors that during his tenure as executive, Steven Moffat was going to reveal the Doctor by his actual real name?!?!)
It is a great dilemma here of what could have been. I think it is good that in 1989 it ended with the 80s alone and the closing speech in Survival matches.
So why can't big finish do it as audio box ser of the masterplan
Some of the proposed stories for what would have been season 27 have been made for audio.
The Cartmel Masterplan was actually carried out in the New Adventure Novel series, culminating in Lungbarrow.
So if you want to read how it would play out, you can just buy the books and recoil in horror Lungbarrow basically was the payoff and was so fuckng reviled that everyone sighed in relief when RTD said he wasn't going to acknowledge it as canon in the revival.
@@jessebaker2769 Reviled? I think the Lungbarrow was more controversial because of what it details and what it discloses about the Doctor’s past.
Plus RTD isn’t in any place to decide Lungbarrow’s canonicity when his own tenure saw Love & Monsters and 42 happen.
@Ray Venkman You obviously were not online in the late 90s/early 00s before the revival of the show under RTD.
Lungbarrow was THAT fucking reviled and pretty much ensured the Cartmel Masterplan was looked at as a massive bullet that the show/franchise dodged while it was on the air. Along with why the New Adventures novel series fell from grace in fandom eyes, since the chief selling point of the whole thing was "We are going to do the Cartmel Masterplan!" and the payoff being a disaster of epic proportions. To the point of Lungbarrow being the novel tie-in equivalent of Twin Dilemma in terms of "absolute nadir of the franchise".
No. Because Lungbarrow and the whole Loom thing was awful. It’s as bad as the Timeless Child.
Great retrospective so detailed
Ace was ace.
In the end, it was just another beginning...
Thank you for this video and thank you to Sylvester McCoy and Sophie Aldred for the Seventh Doctor and Ace (Dorothy Gale/McShane/?)...
You're welcome.
I miss Sylvester's Doctor and Ace. I'll have to dig out the New Adventures and do some rereading ...thanks for this.
Looking back the sets, costumes and effects have aged terribly. Shows like Star Trek TNG were (pardon the pun) light years ahead of 80's Dr Who (although to be fair TNG S1 was probably just as bad in terms of writing and storylines as season 24 of Dr Who)
McCoy's final series was improving with darker stories and a meaner Doctor. He proved that he was up amongst the best though his early stories were pure pantomime.
Another great video.
Thanks
Realistically it should've been cancelled earlier. But McCoy's second and third seasons were much better, so it would've been nice to see it continue.
The shows tineslot was moved to counxide wirh Coronation Street on purpose because the bastard Michael Grade hated anything to do with science fiction and did everything he could to kill it, because he knew that nobody would miss Corrie for Docror Who
Even now, he acts very proud of himself over what he did
A decision that cost the BBC a lot of profits they could have of earned when the 1990’s rolled in but given where Micheal Grade is at today, some things never change.
It would not have survived even if it was pitted against songs of praise , it was just not popular anymore , I loved doctor who , 3 , 4 , 5 and most of 6 , I had tuned out by 7 and so had everyone else
Without watching this the answer is yes - I’ll comment after also
Good, well balanced overview that concurs with my experience of Dr Who. The BBC is far too much a tool of the establishment to really understand what they created is more than just another children's TV show to be discarded in favour of saving money for more worthwhile products.
I agree that it was cancelled too soon. Sylvester McCoy was an underrated Doctor, and a number of fans agree that he and Ace were the prototypes for the modern Doctor and female companions.
Season 26 is one of my favourites. Can only dream of what Season 27 would have been like.
Absolutely! Season 25 and 26 are some of the finest seasons of Doctor Who and I think some really interesting things were being set up but alas, the BBC clearly didn't feel the same way and had active contempt for the show so sadly it was inevitable they were going to axe it no matter what which sucks. I'm glad the BBC of today view Doctor Who as the valuable and important property it is, it helps that the people in charge today grew up as fans of the show themselves so they have much more love for it than the suits did in the 80s.
Ironically the BBC saw it as valuable during the 90's but purely on a merchandise and video basis which is why they never sold it off.
Andrew Cartmel would have made DW great again if he'd had the chance.
Any time is the wrong time to cancel Doctor Who.
where can you watch them?
Watch what?
@@TheWatcherOnWho the old seasons
@vasyear Depends on what country you live in. The majority of the classic stories are on DVD bar some of the ones with lost episodes.
Yes, it was cancelled at the wrong time as well as for the wrong reasons.
Note how the show had a massive upswing in quality after Eric Saward left.
Classic Who was killed with Season S23 Trial of A Timelord and S24 wasn't new and cheap but in the last two seasons were some of the best of the show.
Even if the first serial was not the best, I'd argue that the rest of season 24 was pretty good. Mel was an underrated companion stuff like Delta and the Bannermen and Paradise Towers were really good.
@@jessebaker2769 sorry I disagree other than dragonfire I think S24 is a really bad season that contributed to the shows death.
The BBC wanted Dr Who cancelled, that is why they killed it off by casting Mc Coy, who was so awful . I remember it well. I was there at the time
My take is that the best place for the classic show to have ended is on The Five Doctors. It works as a rest-point, it's enough of a point of intrigue to hang things on, whilst sparing us the worst of what came immediately after.
I appreciate what Cartmel was doing to attempt a repair job on the show, but if I were to take a sober judgment, I'd have to say McCoy's era overall feels rather scattershot and messy, and occasionally its left field moments of melodrama and political hectoring just stick in the throat. Remembrance of the Daleks is the only one I can think of as a bone fide success. Greatest Show in the Galaxy's a lot of fun but feels like it belongs to a different show entirely.
I guess I can say it left the show on a better note than Trial of a Time Lord had, and I am glad I got Remembrance out of the deal. I just can't help feel it's a tad overrated as an era.
Don’t you like Curse of Fenric?
While I am a fan of McCoy's era, I have to admit that I find myself agreeing that The Five Doctors seemed to the the show's last hurrah, since not long after came Warriors of the Deep, which looking back seems to have been the point where the show entered an irreversible decline (and gave Michael Grave the scene he used to peddle around to champion cancelling the show), and even the high points of McCoy's run under Cartmel, with as much goodwill as they have, were not enough.
@@MrGared22 Indeed.
@@colemacgrath2005 I have some issues with it. The Ace melodrama stuff never really worked for me, and the more glorified portrayal of the Soviet soldiers in it rather irked me.
@sadako24 Nothing wrong with Ace's ark, but you can definitely see the seeds of the insufferable leftism creeping in.
I blame Michael Grade controller of the BBC Who cancelled season 27 of Doctor Who as he hated the programme.
I think the final nail in the coffin was casting a way too old Sophie Aldred as Ace, it was embarrassing to watch.
Short answer: ye. Long answer: yes, it was.
Meanwhile, Thatcher was the opposite of totalitarian. It's those who opposed her who were totalitarians.
True, but she was not a dyed in the wool libertarian either. She did kill our right to bear arms after Dunblane.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought season 24 was childish. Especially Paradise Towers. Urgh.
Even The Happiness Patrol was dire. But the rest were an improvement.
This era of the show had the theme tune, the title card, the Tardis, Daleks and Cybermen, but I could never ID it as the show formerly known as Dr Who
Absolutely the show could have gone up to 1995 then a 10 year break.