I know this is a joke but Peter was pretty sick during this issue of the comics so he genuinely wasn’t at full mental or physical capacity at the time.
I'll do you one better!! *headcanon time* this peter parker pulled a no way home and went to dr strange to make it that green goblin never revealed his identity, strange cast a similar spell to mcu strange's which sends peter back in time to the day before his wedding but now the timeline is changed green goblin never got the idea to send the envelope to jonah, so peter marries gwen happier than ever due to still retaining his memory of the previous timeline and knowing that timeline will never ever happen THE END ;)
In the Green Goblin's first appearance, his plan is to fool Spidey into coming to Hollywood and make a movie. When Spidey arrives, he gets on a bus with the Goblin and the Enforcers (whom Spidey thinks are just actors) and they drive into the desert. Now imagine what all of them are talking about on that bus ride. I think Norman may even be driving that bus.
@@thomasraines1396 He's the type that has that laser stare at the back of the head of the person in front of him. The other person can feel it, but when they turn around to say something, they just turn back around and look everywhere else. The most intense waiting in line ever! - - - But he does have exact change.
"What If" was kind of a wish-fulfillment horror story. They were fun. They'd begin on a up note, the fan's wish fulfilled, then turn to end on a sour note. The typical comic book story is the reverse: starting with a setback and then the turn is overcoming it.
Another unbelievable moment in this story - Aunt May being happy about Peter marrying Gwen. Before MJ first appeared in the book, May spent 20 issues trying to set Peter up with her, and damaging any romantic plans he could have had with Betty Brant and Liz Allan. MJ was always May's plan for Peter, so Peter telling her that he was marrying Gwen here would have been secretly devastating to her.
@@DSan-kl2yc Well into the Peter/Gwen relationship in ASM, May was always chatting with MJ, often when MJ was visiting Aunt Anna (who lived next door to May) so they'd see each other all the time. And she was always saying that she wanted her and Peter to get together. May and Gwen rarely had any interactions. The only one I can think of is one time when May was going about how Peter was so frail and helpless, and Gwen just lashes out at her, telling her that she's wrong and to stop babying Peter. It's a rare good moment for Gwen where she stands up for Peter, and tells May what someone should have told her years ago. May is so shocked and traumatized that she literally runs away - I think she leaves New York and goes to stay with Aunt Anna for a few months, who is in Florida at the time. But there are few, if any, scenes of May saying that she likes Gwen and wants Peter to get together with her instead of MJ. She is very much team-MJ. Even when the Gwen clone returns, MJ is moping because she and Peter had been getting closer, but now that "Gwen" has returned she is thinking that is over, and May literally gives her a pep talk, saying that she has to go and "fight for her man".
@@jhornacek and that was the reason why hated the comics from 140 to 150 when the original clone saga took place. It was like everybody wanted Peter and mj to be together instead of Peter moving on from gwen's death. Also the reaction that the characters had when the Gwen clone came back was so irritating for me. They were like we did all the hardwork to bring mj and Peter together but this idiot Gwen comes back from the dead to ruin our efforts. I knew that Gwen never had a proper character development when she was alive, but after reading the original clone saga, I hated everyone in that series, especially Peter,mj and aunt may. Mj was so jealous when she saw Gwen return and instead of being happy that her dead friend came back, she asked peter to choose between her and Gwen. I hated aunt may ever since Peter started living with Harry, like it was okay to see her overprotection towards Peter when he was in high school, but that still continued after that making her very irritating .At the same time, she thinks spiderman is bad and doc ock is good and was about to marry him without even informing Peter. The saddest thing for me was when Peter felt that it was better when Gwen Stacy was dead and him literally saying this words broke my heart. He didn't even ask Gwen to stay at his place and Gwen had to live with ned and Brant. Right now, I am the biggest fan of Gwen Stacy, despite her bad character development, atleast she was a good human being like her father. I am also happy of the fact that Peter and mj have an on and off relationship where they are mentally tortured because they deserve to be. Also, if I had a chance to the comic universe and kill someone with my bare hands then it would be aunt may for asking mj to somehow not let Gwen come in between mj and Peter. She is the worst aunt may.ever. Also, she was not living with Anna at Florida. She was living with doc ock.
@@sashikalachoudhury1803 They were not happy for Gwen's return 'cause she was DEAD AND SEE HER ALIVE AGAIN WAS A SHOCK FOR THEM ALL. MJ's way only worried about her relationship because she and Peter started a relationship only ONE ISSUE BEFORE, but this doesn't mean she didn't understand the pain and the confusion Peter felt in that moment. When MJ says to Peter to choose between her and Gwen she was only insecure about their future like a couple,it's understandable
@@sofialogozzo2718 they weren't even a couple at that moment. They had just kissed at the airport once. And they had not taken after that because Peter went somewhere with Joe Robertson. And upon returning, he saw Gwen at his house. I wanted to say thing is that the first thing that comes to Peter's mind is that mj is jealous when he looked at her. Whereas he should have been happy that Gwen was always alive, confused about how she was alive and scared to death because if Gwen could come back then the green Goblin could come back as well. And apparently in future issues, Norman did come back.
You know, this turned out better than expected, like, I just assumed Gwen was gonna die again, like the fates are out to get her. The ending seemed like a, jumping off point for another story, it's not like this was... entirely fixable, for this universe anyway. Maybe it was just not to be, or Mephisto is reading his daily planner and seeing his marriage deal with Peter got moved up a few years.
It's like one tragedy traded for another. Main timeline: Gwen Dies What if timeline: Gwen lives, Peter's life is ruined Makes me wonder how he moved forward in that what if.
@@Gsmooth84 I'm not shure but I had heared that this "What If" Story was actually not really finished becouse for the planed end the writer and artist have back to that time a strong disagree meant with Marvel and leave Marvel.
This kind of what ifs remind me of that episode of Smallville in which Clark is given the opportunity to re-live the day Lana died, changes things and saves her but his dad dies instead. There's always a price to pay
There is no way that, in the 616 universe, Jameson would have done what he did here. He genuinely likes and respects Peter. Apart from his hatred of Spiderman, JJJ is at heart a decent person and will do right for those he cares about.
I don't think we actually see the photos that Norman sent Jameson, but they are likely damning enough that they prove Peter is Spidey, even if someone else (Daredevil, the Prowler) shows up in Spidey's costume.
I was thinking something like that, like maybe Pete goes to Avengers Mansion for sanctuary. If they'd really done this, there are ways the situation could be rectified.
@@NightHawke I mean, in this reality, Peter could go to the Avengers for sanctuary. This is long before he joins the Avengers and his actions have been sparse. I think his only (?) interaction with them is annual #3 where they asked him to join the team but he turned them down. So it's not like they would accept him with open arms. Plus, remember that at this time, Spidey was still wanted by the cops for Captain Stacey's death. The Avengers may not be that eager to let a suspected murderer hide at their mansion. And even if they did, would Peter live there forever? Plus the Avengers wouldn't be able to do much about the murder charge. And even if he was able to resolve the police charges, his identity is now publicly known. As we've seen over the years, when Spidey's villains know his identity, they go after his friends/family - we saw this in Civil War. Any hope that this Peter had of living a normal life are gone.
@@jhornacek what could they be in other than Pete changing costumes or the goblin dragging him. I doubt they're that damning. But Pete ruined it by jumping super high through a window.
@@DSan-kl2yc LIke I said, we never see the pictures, but they are from the Goblin so we have to assume they are damning, and convincing enough to make Jameson believe them enough to call the police to arrest Peter. Likely pictures of Spider-Man changing into Peter Parker (or vice versa). As far as Peter "ruining it", Jameson just showed up and publicly revealed his identity, the cops were trying to arrest him, and his Aunt May collapsed. It was a pretty complicated situation so of course he reacted using his spider-strength to get to May, since he thought she was dying - thereby confirming to everyone that he was in fact Spider-Man. After that he had no choice but to jump through a window to leave - otherwise he would have to fight the police, putting everyone (including his new wife) in danger.
My biggest problem with the What If comics is that, every one that I've ever read - *every one* - has a sad ending. That being said, I do have a favorite issue, if you're interested in visiting it: What If Doctor Doom was a Hero?
I think I had that issue. If I remember correctly, that was where Doom actually listed to Reed Richards about the error in Doom's calculations and didn't end up scarring his face. Yeah, that was a good one. The only What If that I recall that had a sort of "happy" ending is the one where Spider-Man kept his six arms. Yeah, the What If stories were usually going to end badly for our heroes.
Peter wants to change his name to Ben Reily, and flee to another city with Gwen, but he's conflicted by the guilt over his promise to Captain Stacy so he turns himself in. Thus, "The Spectacular Trial of Peter Parker"
I'd like to believe that while waiting outside across the street from his apartment, Iceman came across his. Bobby offers him a refuge and he joins the X-Men, bringing Mrs. Parker
Sasha it’s worth mentioning that while this story ramps the tragedy to make Gwen living seem worse. It’s not even close to how mean spirited and vitriolic “What If MJ was shot instead of Aunt May” was, where a grief stricken Peter yells (Because MJ straight up died) “I wish I had never married that woman!” as Iron Man and the cops drag him away for murdering Kingpin. Because Quesada was and probably is just that insecure that people rightfully think One More Day was bad.
Ultimately, the What If stories are always going to try to make the status quo look like the "right" way it should have gone but it's often really transparent that they go at it from that angle. Making Peter so horrible just to make OMD look like the "right choice" is irritating cause OMD already has him literally making deals with the actual fucking devil. You can't exactly bounce back from essentially being in a contract with goddamn Beelzebub.
To this day, Quesada still thinks that Spider-Man being married was something that was broken and needed fixing, and that One More Day (and One Moment In Time) were great stories that did their job.
@@arpitpatel2781 It's a pretty grimdark story, personally I'd love to see Sasha tackle the What-if where Conan The Barbarian gets transported to the Dark Phoenix saga, where he then proceeds to beat up the X-Men while under the impression Jean is Red Sonja. The same Red Sonja who looks the same as MJ (Due to her two team-ups with Spider-Man). Which says to me that all Marvel Red Heads look the exact same.
Instead of JJ bursting in to interrupt the wedding I half expected it to be some convoluted plot to make Peter Parker marry Lois Lane instead. Good video, I'm learning more about Gwen!
Here is my take on it: Everything in the what if can will have a branching off point. 1.) Everything in the what if is the same up to the wedding. Parker takes the bullets and shows the world that he is not Spiderman. He survives it and brings up the fake photo angle and parker sells the story of being shot on his wedding day with no proof of the photo being Authentic. He sells that story to the Daily Bugle's enemies and they destroy the place, along with law suits ruins Jameson. Parker is wins the lawsuit and builds a perfect family and still continues to be Spiderman, now being the least likely person for people to believe to be Spiderman. Also Aunt May did get medical treatment and as the story developed with people nearly dying from the cops shooting him under Jameson's orders, fully supports Peter again and doesn't believe in anything Jameson used to sell her news on Spiderman. 2.) Wedding is planned out by Gwenn and at another location than what Aunt May would have picked. When the cops try to arrest Peter and fire on him, a bunch of the crowds faces change into the various super heroes who are friends with Spiderman. They stop the bullets and explain that Gwen had been saved by Spiderman and he thought that the Green Goblin would try to sell or get other villains to crash the wedding to kill Parker thinking he was Spiderman. Spiderman didn't want to his favorite photographer hurt or killed so he pulled a few favors to make sure no villain would harm anyone here. Because even the thought of someone being a hero and at a wedding can be a tragedy. The police get word over thier coms that Spiderman was seen stopping crime on the other side of town (He got a friend to impersonate him for around the time of the wedding so the sighting can take place establishing the two are not the same.) From here this version splits into two again: A.) The cops dismiss this whole thing and leave escorting Jameson out of the building and also eventually gets sued by Peter and loved ones for undue stress and public Disturbance, being a menace etc... Eventrually the photo is thrown out when it comes to light that the photos were sent by the Green Goblin therefore invalidating as evidence to even have in a court case. They take thier winnings and buy the Daily Bugle and have Robbie run it for them while they get Gwen and Peter get thier marriage under way the right way... (That and getting Spiderman back onto the field.) B.) Peter goes with them now with super hero protection and the super heroes help with the court case evidence of the photos and they get switched out, with fake ones that make it look like they were photo shopped or disprove the them in another way. Peter gets She Hulk and Matt Murlock (Dare Devil) to defend him, they win. The rest happens the same as in version A.). 3.) The wedding happens with no issues and Peter is called into work and Jameson decides to tell Peter to meet him at another location. At that location a garage or apartment area and there he has a tape recorder and decides to grill Peter about the photos and record this entire thing as a "Interview". This leads to them hashing out everything about why he wears a mask and why he does what he does. insert - www.cbr.com/spider-man-identity-revealed/ event unfolds. Jameson helps Spiderman from here out as a confidant and friend to Peter. He also lets go of the Spiderman is a menace thing. 4.) When the police go to arrest Spiderman and Jameson announcing he is Spiderman, before anyone can do anything. Robbie then says if he is Spiderman then he needs to thank him for saving his life multiple times and this give him the opportunity to thank him officially. Split timelines from here: A.) And then others among them start to line up to thank him and the crowd doesn't let the cops take Peter. Cops back off because it it would be a bad publicity to arrest him before the wedding concluded and the public opinion would destroy the rep of the Police, not to mention just how many of the officers themselves have been saved by Spiderman so they also don't want to arrest Peter. As even the possibility sparks people to hold campaigns to promote this news as a good thing. Surprising everyone is how many people come out to support this news as a positive. Peter gets help from the Avengers and the Fantastic Four about ways to protect his family and friends. B.) Everyone goes to prevent Peter from being taken but he has them back off as he doesn't want them hurt, goes with the officers and public opinion sees that he is, let go quickly as support for Spiderman reaches a all time high. The super hero community takes action to insure that his loves ones are safe from harm. Peter becomes a success in the world now that he has been unmasked, Peter moves on to become more of the super hero support role for the next generation and sometimes back up for everyone, while being somewhat retired with his wife Gwen. 5.) (Comical Route) The photos are fake, switched out by Shield who was monitoring, what The Green Goblin was doing with that document. Police dismissed this as evidence of any kind. Shield lets Spiderman know that he owes them one.
On one hand I can see where the detractors are coming from on What if... but I also read a story were the Silver Surfer got the Infinity Gauntlet and ultimately used the power to make himself happy with his girlfriend and make the stones go away. I think What if... was ultimately a vehicle to explore different concepts.
I love Marvel’s what ifs but they do often end up being the typical “You didn’t like what happened in canon? Well if that bad thing hadn’t happened AND EVEN WORSE THING WOULD HAVE”. Which I feel it’s unnecessary, this are not main stories that are meant to run indefinitely, they are more often than not one shots and self contain, most likely the last we’re gonna see of that world. So if it makes sense in the story just give it a happy ending, don’t just pull conflict out of nowhere to validate decisions made in canon.
I should have made this comment on the last video, but the really big insult of Gwen's death was that just the issue before, Peter saved someone who was falling. Yet he didn't use that method to save Gwen.
this really is how quite a few of the What If? stories feel like, they have this twist of "oh, someone didn't like the canon version of the story? well fuck those readers for having opinions, now we're going to have Punisher kill their favourite heroes. again and again and again"
@@jhornacek That explains Onslaught and most of the X events... The reason for a forth version of Counter Earth, with that version of Bucky becoming the 616 Nomad.... Maybe the What If series is at least an ending to something.
I have always loved the "What If" series. I always enjoy seeing different takes on stories and the "What If" series aloud for stories that broke the mold of comics never truly changing. There is a fundamental flaw in these comics though. It is actually alluded to by the Watcher. He states that there are an infinite of possible outcomes to these stories. So that would also mean that there is a world where Peter and Gwen got married and everything went perfectly, but there is another where Gwen turned Peter into the cops for being Spider-man. This "rabbit hole" can go on forever. Basically what I am saying is even if you did not like the story then there is nothing stopping anyone from writing their own version of events and in another reality that is what happens.
@@Vegadra That's why we don't acknowledge THAT story. Not even Marvel Comics likes to say they wrote it. Gwen and Norman (two characters who barely interacted before their death 2-part story) had babies who CONVENIENTLY look fully adult despite being pre-school age and Mary Jane knew all about the secret for years but didn't tell Peter (yeah, right, she'd keep it from Peter AFTER Norman Osborn came back from the dead in the 90s and stole Peter and Mary Jane's own baby in the clone saga). It's such dumb soap opera trash.
In the original story, the Goblin tells Spidey that even if he hadn't caught Gwen, the fall from such a height would have killed her. So hitting the river from the top of that bridge would have killed her.
@@Nightman221k Peter was supposed to be the father of the Stacey twins, but Marvel said no, so JMS had to make Norman the father. Their rapid growth is explained by them being the children of Norman and the Goblin formula having affected his blood. As for MJ not telling Peter about it, she explains that Gwen asked her never to tell Peter, and then after Gwen died, why would she tell Peter then? It would only hurt him and his memory of Gwen. As for Norman stealing Peter and Gwen's baby, that's what most readers like to think happened, but the comics have confirmed that Baby May died during birth and that the "May" that Norman was holding was in fact Aunt May. As for acknowledging that story, it's never been retconned. Marvel has acknowledged it multiple times, including an ASM issue a couple of months ago where Norman meets Spider-Gwen for the first time. It's hilarious and creepy all at the same time.
I feel like it bears repeating that the storyline introduced Gwen and Norman's pre-school aged offspring as fully grown adults so that the DRAMA of the situation would be increased because one looked like Gwen and the other resembled Peter (because the story was reworked from a only-marginally-less-terrible-but-still-stupid idea of the twins being Peter and Gwen's adult pre-schoolers). And Gwen and Norman barely even had a conversation the Sins Past retcon making their one-night-stand look even more forced. I legitimately stopped reading all Spidey books after that terrible story came out because it was levels of bad that I would think even a bad soap opera would reject. In my mind if that's the quality of story Marvel gives the face of their brand, they've lost all quality.
JMS' original plan was that his run was going to end with Sin's Past being retconned - Spidey's history was supposed to be retconned back many years, to Gwen's death I think. But Marvel vetoed that. JMS said he never would have done SP if he had known at the time that he wouldn't be able to retcon it and wipe the Stacey twins out of existence.
@@treynevs4888 Norman's first meeting with Spider-Gwen in a recent ASM issue makes Sin's Past almost worth it. It's creepy and hilarious all at the same time.
I've been following this channel for a while but I have literally *JUST* realized that the poster in the background is the joker and not the picture of a Van Gogh painting. Everything I thought I knew was a lie.
drove me crazy. I knew it was a poster using that starry night style, but could never make out the picture. thankfully she moved the camera ( maybe so we can see the deadpool poster?) and can see that one in it's full glory.
The Goblin twins were because Norman was their father. If Peter and Gwen had gotten married and had children, their kids would be like Mayday or Annie - normal aging, with eventual Spider-powers.
I'd like to see a follow-up to this "What If", see Spider-Man still try to save people while everyone knows who he really is and see if those who support him can convince the law to leave him be.
I've been watching your videos for about a year now, and I only just figured out what the painting is behind you. Love the starry night version of Joker!
Spiderman dives faster than her to get below her shoots webbing between the two bridge suport beams and catches her and lands into his webbing. No water and no death. Just by shooting past her to web the area below her.
“Motivation and engagement pep.” Amazing. Also the Spidey-signal is like the Spidey-mobile: both are absurd but are oddly nice. “There are no time narration boxes, they’re never around when you need them. Always when you don’t.” that sounds like a problem Frank Miller’s All-Star Batman and Robin had.
There are plenty of Lee/Ditko issues where the Spidey-SIgnal is used effectively to distract enemies, light Spidey's way, and draw attention to things. It is much more useful than the Spider-Mobile.
@@thomasraines1396 I can't remember, I'd have to pull out issues and look through them. Like I said, its usage is situational - it has to be at night, or in a dark place. Not much use for it in the daylight.
Some of your best work here. That "motivated by engagement" line was I'm guessing a UA-cam thing? Very sly. Very sharp. As for the comic, yeah this is one of my favourite What-Ifs. Jameson is a real demon in it. He's only slightly better in canon but slightly is all it takes. I think the debate is that even with Pete's speed and strength he wouldn't have reached Gwen in time without using his webbing, so she was well and truly fucked from the get go.
And I don't think Peter had his web-shooters. He says at the end that his costume is at home - he wouldn't have worn under his tuxedo it to his wedding.
As far as Jameson goes this was exactly the same reaction he had when Peter revealed his identity in the Civil War... But since he was on the good side of the law there Jameson sued him. I'm a bit fond of the bit in the Sam Raimi movies where Jameson shows he regrets how he treated Spider-man for a moment before going back on it instantly.
As someone who read this comic for myself, I can safely say that this was a very interesting read. In all honesty, this felt like a pilot to entirely new series given the questions this comic raises. Like, how will Gwen save Peter now that he's a fugitive? Will Noman try to help his former arch foe now that he's been redeemed thanks to his son's actions? Will he tell the Truth to Harry, Gwen, and Merry Jane about what happened? What role will Spider-Man's villains play now that Peter's secret identity is outed? There's just so much potential here that I wish was explored.
Jonah's villainous turn here against Peter is in character for him. During Civil War, when Peter reveals that he's Spidey to the world, Jonah is incensed and sues Peter. They actually end up in a boxing ring where Peter lets Jonah hit him over and over to get it out of his system.
Yes, I did get that. The WHAT IF... stories almost always showed us that the original story was the best possible outcome. Wanting something different from the story would give you a harsher reality. Great video.
What if..what if didn't end in tragic irony every time 'ARRGH!' Either the multiverse or the watcher has a maliciously mischievous nature existing most what if stories do not end 'happily ever after' theres almost an inevitable fatalism at work here
There were certainly a lot of people who wished this HAD been canon. I remember reading back then how a lot of people felt killing Gwen off was a cop-out: Marvel didn't want Gwen around because MJ had become a far more interesting character. BUT, it's not a total loss at the end. In fact, there could be a greater development in this version than the "return to status quo, focus on MJ now" ending of the original. Yes, Peter is exposed, and May suffers a heart attack. But this was almost certainly the shock of the situation, and hopefully the heart attack would be minor and May would recover. And Peter now has allies that might help turn things around. Robbie quits the Bugle, and will be around to help Peter and Gwen. His influence almost certainly will help turn public opinion towards newly married Peter and what he has suffered through alone for so many years. Then, there's Flash, Spider-Man's most fervent supporter in those days. There's Gwen, whom I have no doubt will find a way to get Spidey's equipment to him, with or without help. There's Aunt May; once she recovers, she almost certainly will take Peter's side once she recognizes that Spider-Man IS Peter and not what the Daily Bugle has been hammering into her brain ever since Spidey's debut. Gwen would be essential here. And, perhaps most importantly, he now has the Osborn family on his side. If Osborn is now cured, he almost certainly will come to Peter's aid. As a very wealthy man, his own influence would certainly help turn things around for Peter. In the end, Peter has more factors in his favor NOW than he had in the original continuity, where no one knows Peter is Spider-Man and everyone will quickly believe the Daily Bugle version of events: Spider-Man is responsible for the murder of one prominent figure (George Stacy), his daughter (Gwen), and one of the city's great philanthropists (Norman Osborn). Following the What If issue, most of these obstructions would have been cleared up quickly. Peter almost certainly would be better off in the long run with his identity out in the open than he would have been before. And the Fantastic Four will prove to Peter that he can get by without the baggage of his secret identity. And then there's Jonah, who would be completely overpowered by the force of public opinion. He would be the lone man in the wilderness spewing conspiracy theories no one is willing to listen to any longer. Something I wish would happen to a certain propaganda fester that shall go nameless. Although Jonah COULD sue Peter for selling photos of himself to make money, but that's another story.
The ending of that comic has a lot of storytelling potential and isn't anywhere near as horrible as One More Day, and really shows everyone in Peter's life rallying around him. It does kind of invalidate the choice because it shows real story progression that never really came in hindsight. It would have been just as much of a milestone if Peter's honesty with his family was a turning point rather than Gwen Stacy's death. When Spidey is typically all about shouldering burdens and trying to do the right thing, it would have been a good change of pace. At the same time, this story probably never would have existed like this if they had kept her alive, but like many Spidey alternate stories I find this more interesting than the mainline one.
Imagine a world that spun off of this "What If." Gwen and Aunt May and the rest of the supporting characters could get more depth from the event since they'd either support or denounce Peter. And Robbie would be more than just a guy to say "Calm down, JJ." since he didn't hesitate to tell Gwen he'd help support Peter because he knew Peter and Spider-man were good. And Aunt May being confronted by the idea that Peter and Spider-man were one in the same would have her obviously want to re-evaluate her thoughts and see both in a new light. And even the idea that the Daily Bugle would get dragged through the mud by the other newspapers for having SPIDER-MAN selling photos of himself. Not only that but people would resent JJ for outing him after slandering him for years. It's a really interesting What If.
@@Nightman221k JJ is another thing. He wound up showing less humanity than the Green Goblin in this one. This whole thing wound up being really beneficial to most of the supporting cast... including Norman! And yeah, bravo to Robbie. That in itself is an interesting turning point too! Yeah, this would be a really interesting Spider-Story.
As you mentioned, Harry was heavily into drugs (LSD, pills, etc) at this time. The reason Norman remembers that he's the Goblin in the original story (ASM #121) is because he's so upset about Harry's condition. So there's no way Harry would have been lucid enough to have the conversation he has here with his father (and later with Spidey).
AWESOME ! I love your channel ! Having joined the military in 1978 I never knew this existed ! Great story and yes the writers always paint themselves into a corner where the choice comes down to being a hero or not but still a great story. I'm with the "Glasses on" crew . Fabulous content, Awesome presentation Keep it comin !
The idea what Marvel demanded that What If stories *had* to have an unhappy (or worse) ending than the original stories to prove to the reader that the original stories were (a) better, and (b) how those stories always should have ended, just doesn't make sense. There are plenty of What If stories that have happy endings, some even better that the original continuity. The reason why so many of them end with characters (or everyone) dying is because these are things they can't do in normal continuity. What If stories are basically Marvel's version of The Twilight Zone. There are some TZ episodes with happy endings, but those aren't the memorable, or fun, ones. We want the ones where everything goes to hell and aliens invade and nothing will be the same again.
I think all what ifs are fun. Their really the only place a non "never ending battle" story can take place. All the reoccurring gags and plot points used for drama and angst that leave some things the perpetual status quo like a heroes love life, or newspaper critics or villains lack of reform or evil plan success....can just be explored to its conclusion in a what if world. A world untouched by Amnesia, time travel resets, memory wipes and canon resetting deals with mephisto and multiverse events. And yeah I'm fine with fine tuning and updating a character like Gwen to give us the best idealized version of her in the what if that they never kept her around long enough to fine tune her into before in the comics.
Most of the "What-Ifs" I read always had the world destroyed by the end. It is good to see one less "world-shattering" at the end. I thought if he saved her, EVERYONE would have died; in this no one died.
I think they could have worked this storyline out. I mean, have you seen One More Day? Or Dr. Strange could have done the dead. besides, Robbie said that he was going to fix Peters image.
Ms Shasha, I must pause your very interesting video to say, as a big Marvel fan, since the 1970s. I love your version of the voices of spidy and everyone else. As a granpa now, when I read to my grandaughter she asks me to read to her in my funny voice. To make the stories interesting to her.... Some day, when I'm gone, she'll get all of my collection, which is older than her mom, my daughter. Great job. Nico from Trinidad and Tobago
The amazing spiderman 2: the night that gwen stacy died Spiderman no way home: what if spiderman had rescue gwen Spiderman (2002): green goblin last stand
What-If Elektra lived -- actually written and drawn by Frank Miller -- had a happy ending, but that was one exception. Lots of the stories didn't have happy endings. The original series was, IMHO, the best because it revisited many classic stories. The more recent series that covered new events didn't have the gravitas of the older What-Ifs.
While Gwen's death was done by Marvel to get rid of the character, it was also done to show how dangerous it was for a villain to know Spidey's secret identity. I think at that time, the Goblin was the only (?) villain who knew Spidey was Peter Parker. This knowledge cost him Gwen.
That's also storytelling. But mostly like someone else said, it was done because they didn't want Pete to marry. And they had determined that Pete and Gwen were just that good for each or something. They didn't want to write a break up for whatever reason.
@@DSan-kl2yc I think you are right. Because I believe there would have been no way they would have been separated. Their love for each other was too strong that only death could have separated them
Oh, my gosh! I keep cracking up at your whiny voice for Peter. That is pretty much exactly how I thought Ultimate Spider-Man sounded! I think you nailed it when you said that the What If...? staff typically had the other future be sad or hopeless so the fans would be happy with what they got. It was almost as if they became one of those horror stories that Stan and the gang created back in the 50's where everything seems good and then a twist happens that ruins everything. That is how most What If's...? go. Everything gets good and then goes really bad. There were a few with happy endings. But not many. They should do a What If...? where Peter finds out that Gwen cheated on him with Norman Osborn BEFORE she dies! Peter sees that note saying Goblin kidnapped her and then goes to bed to sleep off that flu. And then Goblin and Gwen can have a huge argument on the bridge until the cops or some other hero comes to put the smack down on him.
I, for one, found it amusing how you were talking about some fans feeling like Marvel uses What If? to defend the choices they did make while, at the same time, showing the cover to What If Spider-Man never married MJ
There are plenty of What If stories with happy endings* so the idea that What If's deliberately have worse endings to make readers think the original stories were better is kind of silly. * Why is everybody laughing?
i always look forward to your posts. each of your posts are well done, Sasha. i dig your voices and animated descriptions and reviews. you are the best.
Even in an issue of “What If?”, Gwen Stacy is still more of a plot device than an actual character. The same thing happened in Spider-Man 3 and both ASM flicks. It’s never about who she is or what she wants. It’s always about the events resulting from her being in harm’s way. By comparison, Karen Page was way more fleshed out and complex, yet no one cries for her.
The problem with the movies is that they have even restricted the character development of Gwen because they know Gwen shall be killed. Spiderman 3 was supposed to have Gwen in the final battle instead of mj but Sony changed it. The cancelled spiderman 4 wanted to introduce black cat and also it was said that both captain Stacy and Gwen shall die in spiderman 4. It was like Gwen was not really important in Sam raimi's films thanks to sony. Whereas the tasm 1 had shown the clock tower and captain Stacy saying Peter to stay away from Gwen indicated that Gwen shall die. Also tasm 2 was entirely about Peter staying away from Gwen because of seeing hallucinations of the captain whereas Gwen to help Peter. Nobody saw her as a character. Everyone wanted her to be used as a plot device who would actually be killed for mj to come forward. Had Gwen been the main love interest in tasm series than she would have been definitely been a really good character because she was the one who made the original Gwen Stacy interesting.
The thing with What if is that they can never address how things would have really went. They cannot tell how successive writers would have played with things.
"He thinks about using his webshooters but decides against it."
Should be titled "What if Peter had his Coffee That Morning"
What if Spiderman ate his Wheaties?
I know this is a joke but Peter was pretty sick during this issue of the comics so he genuinely wasn’t at full mental or physical capacity at the time.
Or a Mentos.
Now cue Mephisto offering to fix everything in exchange for taking away the wedding.
I'll do you one better!!
*headcanon time* this peter parker pulled a no way home and went to dr strange to make it that green goblin never revealed his identity, strange cast a similar spell to mcu strange's which sends peter back in time to the day before his wedding but now the timeline is changed green goblin never got the idea to send the envelope to jonah, so peter marries gwen happier than ever due to still retaining his memory of the previous timeline and knowing that timeline will never ever happen
THE END ;)
Green goblin using the mail always makes me laugh uncontrollably. Imagine seeing him walking down your street
He walks into the post office in full costume.
In the Green Goblin's first appearance, his plan is to fool Spidey into coming to Hollywood and make a movie. When Spidey arrives, he gets on a bus with the Goblin and the Enforcers (whom Spidey thinks are just actors) and they drive into the desert.
Now imagine what all of them are talking about on that bus ride. I think Norman may even be driving that bus.
@@thomasraines1396 He has to wait in line because he doesn't have stamps and it's before postage vending machines.
@@Skeezer66 does hum a song while he waits? Try to start a casual conversation? Or just stand in complete silence?
@@thomasraines1396 He's the type that has that laser stare at the back of the head of the person in front of him. The other person can feel it, but when they turn around to say something, they just turn back around and look everywhere else. The most intense waiting in line ever! - - - But he does have exact change.
Gwen: *gets her neck snapped*
Also Gwen: Tis but a scratch
"What If" was kind of a wish-fulfillment horror story. They were fun. They'd begin on a up note, the fan's wish fulfilled, then turn to end on a sour note. The typical comic book story is the reverse: starting with a setback and then the turn is overcoming it.
What an interesting take
Proof positive that it's bad luck for the bride and groom to see each other before the ceremony.
This post needs to be pinned!!!!
Save Gwen Stacy : _Happiness_ +10
Parker Luck : *Permanent ailing*
5:44 Gwen predating the overly attached girlfriend face for a solid 40 years or so
Another unbelievable moment in this story - Aunt May being happy about Peter marrying Gwen. Before MJ first appeared in the book, May spent 20 issues trying to set Peter up with her, and damaging any romantic plans he could have had with Betty Brant and Liz Allan. MJ was always May's plan for Peter, so Peter telling her that he was marrying Gwen here would have been secretly devastating to her.
I read these comics but don't remember. But I doubt it. She would have had lots of time to see Pete and Gwen and get over it longer before this.
@@DSan-kl2yc Well into the Peter/Gwen relationship in ASM, May was always chatting with MJ, often when MJ was visiting Aunt Anna (who lived next door to May) so they'd see each other all the time. And she was always saying that she wanted her and Peter to get together.
May and Gwen rarely had any interactions. The only one I can think of is one time when May was going about how Peter was so frail and helpless, and Gwen just lashes out at her, telling her that she's wrong and to stop babying Peter. It's a rare good moment for Gwen where she stands up for Peter, and tells May what someone should have told her years ago. May is so shocked and traumatized that she literally runs away - I think she leaves New York and goes to stay with Aunt Anna for a few months, who is in Florida at the time.
But there are few, if any, scenes of May saying that she likes Gwen and wants Peter to get together with her instead of MJ. She is very much team-MJ. Even when the Gwen clone returns, MJ is moping because she and Peter had been getting closer, but now that "Gwen" has returned she is thinking that is over, and May literally gives her a pep talk, saying that she has to go and "fight for her man".
@@jhornacek and that was the reason why hated the comics from 140 to 150 when the original clone saga took place. It was like everybody wanted Peter and mj to be together instead of Peter moving on from gwen's death. Also the reaction that the characters had when the Gwen clone came back was so irritating for me. They were like we did all the hardwork to bring mj and Peter together but this idiot Gwen comes back from the dead to ruin our efforts. I knew that Gwen never had a proper character development when she was alive, but after reading the original clone saga, I hated everyone in that series, especially Peter,mj and aunt may. Mj was so jealous when she saw Gwen return and instead of being happy that her dead friend came back, she asked peter to choose between her and Gwen. I hated aunt may ever since Peter started living with Harry, like it was okay to see her overprotection towards Peter when he was in high school, but that still continued after that making her very irritating .At the same time, she thinks spiderman is bad and doc ock is good and was about to marry him without even informing Peter. The saddest thing for me was when Peter felt that it was better when Gwen Stacy was dead and him literally saying this words broke my heart. He didn't even ask Gwen to stay at his place and Gwen had to live with ned and Brant. Right now, I am the biggest fan of Gwen Stacy, despite her bad character development, atleast she was a good human being like her father. I am also happy of the fact that Peter and mj have an on and off relationship where they are mentally tortured because they deserve to be. Also, if I had a chance to the comic universe and kill someone with my bare hands then it would be aunt may for asking mj to somehow not let Gwen come in between mj and Peter. She is the worst aunt may.ever.
Also, she was not living with Anna at Florida. She was living with doc ock.
@@sashikalachoudhury1803 They were not happy for Gwen's return 'cause she was DEAD AND SEE HER ALIVE AGAIN WAS A SHOCK FOR THEM ALL. MJ's way only worried about her relationship because she and Peter started a relationship only ONE ISSUE BEFORE, but this doesn't mean she didn't understand the pain and the confusion Peter felt in that moment. When MJ says to Peter to choose between her and Gwen she was only insecure about their future like a couple,it's understandable
@@sofialogozzo2718 they weren't even a couple at that moment. They had just kissed at the airport once. And they had not taken after that because Peter went somewhere with Joe Robertson. And upon returning, he saw Gwen at his house. I wanted to say thing is that the first thing that comes to Peter's mind is that mj is jealous when he looked at her. Whereas he should have been happy that Gwen was always alive, confused about how she was alive and scared to death because if Gwen could come back then the green Goblin could come back as well. And apparently in future issues, Norman did come back.
You know, this turned out better than expected, like, I just assumed Gwen was gonna die again, like the fates are out to get her. The ending seemed like a, jumping off point for another story, it's not like this was... entirely fixable, for this universe anyway.
Maybe it was just not to be, or Mephisto is reading his daily planner and seeing his marriage deal with Peter got moved up a few years.
It's like one tragedy traded for another.
Main timeline: Gwen Dies
What if timeline: Gwen lives, Peter's life is ruined
Makes me wonder how he moved forward in that what if.
@@Gsmooth84 I'm not shure but I had heared that this "What If" Story was actually not really finished becouse for the planed end the writer and artist have back to that time a strong disagree meant with Marvel and leave Marvel.
Your actually right, this story is not really finshed becouseof strong disagreement between the Artist and writer with Marvel.
3:29 Peter Parker sounds like one of those aliens who tried to marry Lois Lane!
This kind of what ifs remind me of that episode of Smallville in which Clark is given the opportunity to re-live the day Lana died, changes things and saves her but his dad dies instead. There's always a price to pay
There is no way that, in the 616 universe, Jameson would have done what he did here. He genuinely likes and respects Peter. Apart from his hatred of Spiderman, JJJ is at heart a decent person and will do right for those he cares about.
And then Daredevil showed up in a Spidey costume and suddenly all the heat is off of Peter. Problem solved.
I don't think we actually see the photos that Norman sent Jameson, but they are likely damning enough that they prove Peter is Spidey, even if someone else (Daredevil, the Prowler) shows up in Spidey's costume.
I was thinking something like that, like maybe Pete goes to Avengers Mansion for sanctuary. If they'd really done this, there are ways the situation could be rectified.
@@NightHawke I mean, in this reality, Peter could go to the Avengers for sanctuary. This is long before he joins the Avengers and his actions have been sparse. I think his only (?) interaction with them is annual #3 where they asked him to join the team but he turned them down. So it's not like they would accept him with open arms.
Plus, remember that at this time, Spidey was still wanted by the cops for Captain Stacey's death. The Avengers may not be that eager to let a suspected murderer hide at their mansion. And even if they did, would Peter live there forever? Plus the Avengers wouldn't be able to do much about the murder charge.
And even if he was able to resolve the police charges, his identity is now publicly known. As we've seen over the years, when Spidey's villains know his identity, they go after his friends/family - we saw this in Civil War. Any hope that this Peter had of living a normal life are gone.
@@jhornacek what could they be in other than Pete changing costumes or the goblin dragging him. I doubt they're that damning. But Pete ruined it by jumping super high through a window.
@@DSan-kl2yc LIke I said, we never see the pictures, but they are from the Goblin so we have to assume they are damning, and convincing enough to make Jameson believe them enough to call the police to arrest Peter. Likely pictures of Spider-Man changing into Peter Parker (or vice versa).
As far as Peter "ruining it", Jameson just showed up and publicly revealed his identity, the cops were trying to arrest him, and his Aunt May collapsed. It was a pretty complicated situation so of course he reacted using his spider-strength to get to May, since he thought she was dying - thereby confirming to everyone that he was in fact Spider-Man. After that he had no choice but to jump through a window to leave - otherwise he would have to fight the police, putting everyone (including his new wife) in danger.
90% of Spider-Man What Ifs are ridiculously hilarious. It usually ends with Peter either getting arrested or murdered.
My biggest problem with the What If comics is that, every one that I've ever read - *every one* - has a sad ending.
That being said, I do have a favorite issue, if you're interested in visiting it: What If Doctor Doom was a Hero?
Yes,it’s called the Infamous Ironman.😊
I think I had that issue. If I remember correctly, that was where Doom actually listed to Reed Richards about the error in Doom's calculations and didn't end up scarring his face. Yeah, that was a good one. The only What If that I recall that had a sort of "happy" ending is the one where Spider-Man kept his six arms. Yeah, the What If stories were usually going to end badly for our heroes.
@@bgood8299 Especially later in the second series got super dark.
What about the one in which Aunt May becomes Galactus' herald?
Good issue..
Peter wants to change his name to Ben Reily, and flee to another city with Gwen, but he's conflicted by the guilt over his promise to Captain Stacy so he turns himself in. Thus, "The Spectacular Trial of Peter Parker"
I'd like to believe that while waiting outside across the street from his apartment, Iceman came across his. Bobby offers him a refuge and he joins the X-Men, bringing Mrs. Parker
Sasha it’s worth mentioning that while this story ramps the tragedy to make Gwen living seem worse. It’s not even close to how mean spirited and vitriolic “What If MJ was shot instead of Aunt May” was, where a grief stricken Peter yells (Because MJ straight up died) “I wish I had never married that woman!” as Iron Man and the cops drag him away for murdering Kingpin.
Because Quesada was and probably is just that insecure that people rightfully think One More Day was bad.
Ultimately, the What If stories are always going to try to make the status quo look like the "right" way it should have gone but it's often really transparent that they go at it from that angle. Making Peter so horrible just to make OMD look like the "right choice" is irritating cause OMD already has him literally making deals with the actual fucking devil. You can't exactly bounce back from essentially being in a contract with goddamn Beelzebub.
I want Sasha to make video on this What if!
To this day, Quesada still thinks that Spider-Man being married was something that was broken and needed fixing, and that One More Day (and One Moment In Time) were great stories that did their job.
@@arpitpatel2781 It's a pretty grimdark story, personally I'd love to see Sasha tackle the What-if where Conan The Barbarian gets transported to the Dark Phoenix saga, where he then proceeds to beat up the X-Men while under the impression Jean is Red Sonja. The same Red Sonja who looks the same as MJ (Due to her two team-ups with Spider-Man). Which says to me that all Marvel Red Heads look the exact same.
Instead of JJ bursting in to interrupt the wedding I half expected it to be some convoluted plot to make Peter Parker marry Lois Lane instead.
Good video, I'm learning more about Gwen!
Here is my take on it:
Everything in the what if can will have a branching off point.
1.) Everything in the what if is the same up to the wedding. Parker takes the bullets and shows the world that he is not Spiderman. He survives it and brings up the fake photo angle and parker sells the story of being shot on his wedding day with no proof of the photo being Authentic. He sells that story to the Daily Bugle's enemies and they destroy the place, along with law suits ruins Jameson.
Parker is wins the lawsuit and builds a perfect family and still continues to be Spiderman, now being the least likely person for people to believe to be Spiderman. Also Aunt May did get medical treatment and as the story developed with people nearly dying from the cops shooting him under Jameson's orders, fully supports Peter again and doesn't believe in anything Jameson used to sell her news on Spiderman.
2.) Wedding is planned out by Gwenn and at another location than what Aunt May would have picked. When the cops try to arrest Peter and fire on him, a bunch of the crowds faces change into the various super heroes who are friends with Spiderman. They stop the bullets and explain that Gwen had been saved by Spiderman and he thought that the Green Goblin would try to sell or get other villains to crash the wedding to kill Parker thinking he was Spiderman. Spiderman didn't want to his favorite photographer hurt or killed so he pulled a few favors to make sure no villain would harm anyone here. Because even the thought of someone being a hero and at a wedding can be a tragedy. The police get word over thier coms that Spiderman was seen stopping crime on the other side of town (He got a friend to impersonate him for around the time of the wedding so the sighting can take place establishing the two are not the same.)
From here this version splits into two again: A.) The cops dismiss this whole thing and leave escorting Jameson out of the building and also eventually gets sued by Peter and loved ones for undue stress and public Disturbance, being a menace etc... Eventrually the photo is thrown out when it comes to light that the photos were sent by the Green Goblin therefore invalidating as evidence to even have in a court case. They take thier winnings and buy the Daily Bugle and have Robbie run it for them while they get Gwen and Peter get thier marriage under way the right way... (That and getting Spiderman back onto the field.) B.) Peter goes with them now with super hero protection and the super heroes help with the court case evidence of the photos and they get switched out, with fake ones that make it look like they were photo shopped or disprove the them in another way. Peter gets She Hulk and Matt Murlock (Dare Devil) to defend him, they win. The rest happens the same as in version A.).
3.) The wedding happens with no issues and Peter is called into work and Jameson decides to tell Peter to meet him at another location. At that location a garage or apartment area and there he has a tape recorder and decides to grill Peter about the photos and record this entire thing as a "Interview". This leads to them hashing out everything about why he wears a mask and why he does what he does. insert - www.cbr.com/spider-man-identity-revealed/ event unfolds. Jameson helps Spiderman from here out as a confidant and friend to Peter. He also lets go of the Spiderman is a menace thing.
4.) When the police go to arrest Spiderman and Jameson announcing he is Spiderman, before anyone can do anything. Robbie then says if he is Spiderman then he needs to thank him for saving his life multiple times and this give him the opportunity to thank him officially. Split timelines from here: A.) And then others among them start to line up to thank him and the crowd doesn't let the cops take Peter. Cops back off because it it would be a bad publicity to arrest him before the wedding concluded and the public opinion would destroy the rep of the Police, not to mention just how many of the officers themselves have been saved by Spiderman so they also don't want to arrest Peter. As even the possibility sparks people to hold campaigns to promote this news as a good thing. Surprising everyone is how many people come out to support this news as a positive. Peter gets help from the Avengers and the Fantastic Four about ways to protect his family and friends. B.) Everyone goes to prevent Peter from being taken but he has them back off as he doesn't want them hurt, goes with the officers and public opinion sees that he is, let go quickly as support for Spiderman reaches a all time high. The super hero community takes action to insure that his loves ones are safe from harm. Peter becomes a success in the world now that he has been unmasked, Peter moves on to become more of the super hero support role for the next generation and sometimes back up for everyone, while being somewhat retired with his wife Gwen.
5.) (Comical Route) The photos are fake, switched out by Shield who was monitoring, what The Green Goblin was doing with that document. Police dismissed this as evidence of any kind. Shield lets Spiderman know that he owes them one.
Finally someone talking about a comic that I actually own and have read.
It's super simple, but I love how the page at 5:05 has the speech bubble stay average size but with tiny text. It's a clever design choice!
*MJ left the chat*
On one hand I can see where the detractors are coming from on What if... but I also read a story were the Silver Surfer got the Infinity Gauntlet and ultimately used the power to make himself happy with his girlfriend and make the stones go away. I think What if... was ultimately a vehicle to explore different concepts.
It’s still a tragic story in the end but Peter is “filled with motivation & engagement pep.” 😂You are talented gurl.
I love all the stories. Main canon and what if’s. I enjoy them all like different wines. Lol.
I love Marvel’s what ifs but they do often end up being the typical “You didn’t like what happened in canon? Well if that bad thing hadn’t happened AND EVEN WORSE THING WOULD HAVE”.
Which I feel it’s unnecessary, this are not main stories that are meant to run indefinitely, they are more often than not one shots and self contain, most likely the last we’re gonna see of that world.
So if it makes sense in the story just give it a happy ending, don’t just pull conflict out of nowhere to validate decisions made in canon.
I should have made this comment on the last video, but the really big insult of Gwen's death was that just the issue before, Peter saved someone who was falling. Yet he didn't use that method to save Gwen.
Oh man I don't have the issues anymore. But when I read it I didn't even remember that. That would totally be a sucky plothole.
Marvel What If: The Monkey's Paw of comics. (aka, SEE the way we actually did it was better, yes? yes???)
this really is how quite a few of the What If? stories feel like, they have this twist of "oh, someone didn't like the canon version of the story? well fuck those readers for having opinions, now we're going to have Punisher kill their favourite heroes. again and again and again"
There are very few What If's where the ending is better than what actually happened in normal continuity.
@@jhornacek That explains Onslaught and most of the X events...
The reason for a forth version of Counter Earth, with that version
of Bucky becoming the 616 Nomad....
Maybe the What If series is at least an ending to something.
Honestly love Gwen Stacy look and how much she changed
I have always loved the "What If" series. I always enjoy seeing different takes on stories and the "What If" series aloud for stories that broke the mold of comics never truly changing. There is a fundamental flaw in these comics though. It is actually alluded to by the Watcher. He states that there are an infinite of possible outcomes to these stories. So that would also mean that there is a world where Peter and Gwen got married and everything went perfectly, but there is another where Gwen turned Peter into the cops for being Spider-man. This "rabbit hole" can go on forever. Basically what I am saying is even if you did not like the story then there is nothing stopping anyone from writing their own version of events and in another reality that is what happens.
Exactly.
Ever read the spider man entertwined destinies that’s another take on what if gwen stay lived she even becomes spider Gwen in that reality.
What if The Amazing Spider-Man had NOT Married Mary Jane?
Joe Quesada has entered the chat. (cue incoherent screaming from every Spider-Man fan).
Just know that somewhere in the multiverse now where Gwen didn’t die by whiplash web or saved but instead now drowned... Lol
And there's one in which a distraught, lonely, and emotional Gwen had sex with Norman Osborn.
@@Vegadra That's why we don't acknowledge THAT story. Not even Marvel Comics likes to say they wrote it. Gwen and Norman (two characters who barely interacted before their death 2-part story) had babies who CONVENIENTLY look fully adult despite being pre-school age and Mary Jane knew all about the secret for years but didn't tell Peter (yeah, right, she'd keep it from Peter AFTER Norman Osborn came back from the dead in the 90s and stole Peter and Mary Jane's own baby in the clone saga). It's such dumb soap opera trash.
In the original story, the Goblin tells Spidey that even if he hadn't caught Gwen, the fall from such a height would have killed her. So hitting the river from the top of that bridge would have killed her.
@@Vegadra We call that Earth 616 aka the normal Marvel comics continuity. Sin's Past happened, referenced in a recent ASM issue.
@@Nightman221k Peter was supposed to be the father of the Stacey twins, but Marvel said no, so JMS had to make Norman the father. Their rapid growth is explained by them being the children of Norman and the Goblin formula having affected his blood.
As for MJ not telling Peter about it, she explains that Gwen asked her never to tell Peter, and then after Gwen died, why would she tell Peter then? It would only hurt him and his memory of Gwen.
As for Norman stealing Peter and Gwen's baby, that's what most readers like to think happened, but the comics have confirmed that Baby May died during birth and that the "May" that Norman was holding was in fact Aunt May.
As for acknowledging that story, it's never been retconned. Marvel has acknowledged it multiple times, including an ASM issue a couple of months ago where Norman meets Spider-Gwen for the first time. It's hilarious and creepy all at the same time.
Can you imagine the conversation they’d have about her secret children if she HADN’T died?
Tbh, I really wish Marvel would retcon that storyline.
I'm hoping to write for Marvel someday. If I have the chance, it's one of the first things I'll do. I have a plan lol...
I feel like it bears repeating that the storyline introduced Gwen and Norman's pre-school aged offspring as fully grown adults so that the DRAMA of the situation would be increased because one looked like Gwen and the other resembled Peter (because the story was reworked from a only-marginally-less-terrible-but-still-stupid idea of the twins being Peter and Gwen's adult pre-schoolers). And Gwen and Norman barely even had a conversation the Sins Past retcon making their one-night-stand look even more forced. I legitimately stopped reading all Spidey books after that terrible story came out because it was levels of bad that I would think even a bad soap opera would reject. In my mind if that's the quality of story Marvel gives the face of their brand, they've lost all quality.
But they won’t because drama.
JMS' original plan was that his run was going to end with Sin's Past being retconned - Spidey's history was supposed to be retconned back many years, to Gwen's death I think. But Marvel vetoed that. JMS said he never would have done SP if he had known at the time that he wouldn't be able to retcon it and wipe the Stacey twins out of existence.
@@treynevs4888 Norman's first meeting with Spider-Gwen in a recent ASM issue makes Sin's Past almost worth it. It's creepy and hilarious all at the same time.
In truth, none of what happened in the "What if...?" was Gwen's fault, and certainly not because she lived.
I'm glad that both writers and fans are giving Gwen Stacy more thought as time has gone on.
Gwen Stacy in her wedding gown...such ample illustration...
I've been following this channel for a while but I have literally *JUST* realized that the poster in the background is the joker and not the picture of a Van Gogh painting.
Everything I thought I knew was a lie.
drove me crazy. I knew it was a poster using that starry night style, but could never make out the picture. thankfully she moved the camera ( maybe so we can see the deadpool poster?) and can see that one in it's full glory.
So Gwen sues Jamieson for the wedding interruption, and gets set for life, right?
That's a good call
But now everyone knows Peter is Spider-Man. Gonna be a hard life to live.
Could SHIELD have possibly taken him in & given Peter & Gwen new identies- you know, the Nick Fury special witness protection program?
The marriage would’ve failed when Gwen gave birth to goblin twins
I have no idea what you are talking about (willful ignorance)
That monstrosity never happened.
@@thomasraines1396
Search your feelings
You know it to be true
@@ultimate_lance thats not true, that’s impossible!
The Goblin twins were because Norman was their father. If Peter and Gwen had gotten married and had children, their kids would be like Mayday or Annie - normal aging, with eventual Spider-powers.
Ah yes, always have to remember me Green Arrow being a jerk to Roy while he was suffering from drug addiction...
OMG Sasha's Parker voice.......
I love it! LOL!!!
I'd like to see a follow-up to this "What If", see Spider-Man still try to save people while everyone knows who he really is and see if those who support him can convince the law to leave him be.
So…. the first act of No Way Home, then, hahahahaha.
@@theobuniel9643 that could work hahaha
I've been watching your videos for about a year now, and I only just figured out what the painting is behind you. Love the starry night version of Joker!
Spiderman dives faster than her to get below her shoots webbing between the two bridge suport beams and catches her and lands into his webbing. No water and no death. Just by shooting past her to web the area below her.
“Motivation and engagement pep.” Amazing. Also the Spidey-signal is like the Spidey-mobile: both are absurd but are oddly nice. “There are no time narration boxes, they’re never around when you need them. Always when you don’t.” that sounds like a problem Frank Miller’s All-Star Batman and Robin had.
There are plenty of Lee/Ditko issues where the Spidey-SIgnal is used effectively to distract enemies, light Spidey's way, and draw attention to things. It is much more useful than the Spider-Mobile.
@@jhornacek does he still have it?
@@thomasraines1396 Yes. Not sure the last time we've seen it used, but he has still has it. It's situational, so he doesn't use it every issue.
@@jhornacek has he used it in modern times?
@@thomasraines1396 I can't remember, I'd have to pull out issues and look through them. Like I said, its usage is situational - it has to be at night, or in a dark place. Not much use for it in the daylight.
Love that your Peter’s voice sounds like Mandark from Dexter. Hahaha
I love that Sasha's Peter Parker voice is also her X-Plam voice from when Lois Lane almost married a not!Alien from the future.
We can’t have nice things... Gwen ansd Peter can’t get married
Sasha please tell me you have wigs stashed all over your place and just randomly switch them. 🤣
Some of your best work here. That "motivated by engagement" line was I'm guessing a UA-cam thing? Very sly. Very sharp.
As for the comic, yeah this is one of my favourite What-Ifs. Jameson is a real demon in it. He's only slightly better in canon but slightly is all it takes.
I think the debate is that even with Pete's speed and strength he wouldn't have reached Gwen in time without using his webbing, so she was well and truly fucked from the get go.
And I don't think Peter had his web-shooters. He says at the end that his costume is at home - he wouldn't have worn under his tuxedo it to his wedding.
"MJ has left the chat"! :D
I’ve gotta say I love this really nasal voice you’ve given Peter
Your Peter/Spidey voice cracks me up.
Her eyes when she says yes... they scare me.
I'm not surprised that a What If Spider-Man story has a tragic ending... Peter's character trait is to be constantly filled with angst and guilt.
As far as Jameson goes this was exactly the same reaction he had when Peter revealed his identity in the Civil War... But since he was on the good side of the law there Jameson sued him.
I'm a bit fond of the bit in the Sam Raimi movies where Jameson shows he regrets how he treated Spider-man for a moment before going back on it instantly.
How awesome of a season finale would this story be for a Spider-Man show?
Real good
As someone who read this comic for myself, I can safely say that this was a very interesting read. In all honesty, this felt like a pilot to entirely new series given the questions this comic raises. Like, how will Gwen save Peter now that he's a fugitive? Will Noman try to help his former arch foe now that he's been redeemed thanks to his son's actions? Will he tell the Truth to Harry, Gwen, and Merry Jane about what happened? What role will Spider-Man's villains play now that Peter's secret identity is outed? There's just so much potential here that I wish was explored.
3:17 Ok I know Peter Parker is nerdy but you don't have to rub it in with that voice.
Jonah's villainous turn here against Peter is in character for him. During Civil War, when Peter reveals that he's Spidey to the world, Jonah is incensed and sues Peter. They actually end up in a boxing ring where Peter lets Jonah hit him over and over to get it out of his system.
Yes, I did get that. The WHAT IF... stories almost always showed us that the original story was the best possible outcome. Wanting something different from the story would give you a harsher reality. Great video.
"Madness - this is the daily bugle!" ~ JJ Jameson probably
Thoughtful, thought-provoking, well-reasoned and fun. You rock, Sasha!
What if..what if didn't end in tragic irony every time 'ARRGH!' Either the multiverse or the watcher has a maliciously mischievous nature existing most what if stories do not end 'happily ever after' theres almost an inevitable fatalism at work here
There were certainly a lot of people who wished this HAD been canon. I remember reading back then how a lot of people felt killing Gwen off was a cop-out: Marvel didn't want Gwen around because MJ had become a far more interesting character.
BUT, it's not a total loss at the end. In fact, there could be a greater development in this version than the "return to status quo, focus on MJ now" ending of the original. Yes, Peter is exposed, and May suffers a heart attack. But this was almost certainly the shock of the situation, and hopefully the heart attack would be minor and May would recover.
And Peter now has allies that might help turn things around. Robbie quits the Bugle, and will be around to help Peter and Gwen. His influence almost certainly will help turn public opinion towards newly married Peter and what he has suffered through alone for so many years. Then, there's Flash, Spider-Man's most fervent supporter in those days. There's Gwen, whom I have no doubt will find a way to get Spidey's equipment to him, with or without help. There's Aunt May; once she recovers, she almost certainly will take Peter's side once she recognizes that Spider-Man IS Peter and not what the Daily Bugle has been hammering into her brain ever since Spidey's debut. Gwen would be essential here.
And, perhaps most importantly, he now has the Osborn family on his side. If Osborn is now cured, he almost certainly will come to Peter's aid. As a very wealthy man, his own influence would certainly help turn things around for Peter.
In the end, Peter has more factors in his favor NOW than he had in the original continuity, where no one knows Peter is Spider-Man and everyone will quickly believe the Daily Bugle version of events: Spider-Man is responsible for the murder of one prominent figure (George Stacy), his daughter (Gwen), and one of the city's great philanthropists (Norman Osborn). Following the What If issue, most of these obstructions would have been cleared up quickly. Peter almost certainly would be better off in the long run with his identity out in the open than he would have been before. And the Fantastic Four will prove to Peter that he can get by without the baggage of his secret identity.
And then there's Jonah, who would be completely overpowered by the force of public opinion. He would be the lone man in the wilderness spewing conspiracy theories no one is willing to listen to any longer. Something I wish would happen to a certain propaganda fester that shall go nameless.
Although Jonah COULD sue Peter for selling photos of himself to make money, but that's another story.
The ending of that comic has a lot of storytelling potential and isn't anywhere near as horrible as One More Day, and really shows everyone in Peter's life rallying around him. It does kind of invalidate the choice because it shows real story progression that never really came in hindsight. It would have been just as much of a milestone if Peter's honesty with his family was a turning point rather than Gwen Stacy's death. When Spidey is typically all about shouldering burdens and trying to do the right thing, it would have been a good change of pace. At the same time, this story probably never would have existed like this if they had kept her alive, but like many Spidey alternate stories I find this more interesting than the mainline one.
Imagine a world that spun off of this "What If." Gwen and Aunt May and the rest of the supporting characters could get more depth from the event since they'd either support or denounce Peter. And Robbie would be more than just a guy to say "Calm down, JJ." since he didn't hesitate to tell Gwen he'd help support Peter because he knew Peter and Spider-man were good. And Aunt May being confronted by the idea that Peter and Spider-man were one in the same would have her obviously want to re-evaluate her thoughts and see both in a new light. And even the idea that the Daily Bugle would get dragged through the mud by the other newspapers for having SPIDER-MAN selling photos of himself. Not only that but people would resent JJ for outing him after slandering him for years. It's a really interesting What If.
@@Nightman221k JJ is another thing. He wound up showing less humanity than the Green Goblin in this one. This whole thing wound up being really beneficial to most of the supporting cast... including Norman!
And yeah, bravo to Robbie. That in itself is an interesting turning point too!
Yeah, this would be a really interesting Spider-Story.
616 gwen is my favorite comic character ever. thank you so much for talkin about her!
As you mentioned, Harry was heavily into drugs (LSD, pills, etc) at this time. The reason Norman remembers that he's the Goblin in the original story (ASM #121) is because he's so upset about Harry's condition.
So there's no way Harry would have been lucid enough to have the conversation he has here with his father (and later with Spidey).
He was lucid enough because comics
AWESOME ! I love your channel ! Having joined the military in 1978 I never knew this existed ! Great story and yes the writers always paint themselves into a corner where the choice comes down to being a hero or not but still a great story.
I'm with the "Glasses on" crew . Fabulous content, Awesome presentation Keep it comin !
that Spider-Man voice over ... * chefs kiss *
The idea what Marvel demanded that What If stories *had* to have an unhappy (or worse) ending than the original stories to prove to the reader that the original stories were (a) better, and (b) how those stories always should have ended, just doesn't make sense. There are plenty of What If stories that have happy endings, some even better that the original continuity.
The reason why so many of them end with characters (or everyone) dying is because these are things they can't do in normal continuity.
What If stories are basically Marvel's version of The Twilight Zone. There are some TZ episodes with happy endings, but those aren't the memorable, or fun, ones. We want the ones where everything goes to hell and aliens invade and nothing will be the same again.
Whenever Peter Parker wins Spidey loses and vice versa. I think thats what they were going for with the ending
I met Chris Claremont at a signing in the early 90s and he was asked what the writers thought of What If?
“What if? Who cares?” he said.
Wow. A What-if where Spider-Man didn't die. (He's had more What-If deaths than Jean Grey has had actual deaths lol)
Aunt May's fainting dialogue puts Mercutio to shame
I think all what ifs are fun. Their really the only place a non "never ending battle" story can take place. All the reoccurring gags and plot points used for drama and angst that leave some things the perpetual status quo like a heroes love life, or newspaper critics or villains lack of reform or evil plan success....can just be explored to its conclusion in a what if world. A world untouched by Amnesia, time travel resets, memory wipes and canon resetting deals with mephisto and multiverse events.
And yeah I'm fine with fine tuning and updating a character like Gwen to give us the best idealized version of her in the what if that they never kept her around long enough to fine tune her into before in the comics.
Most of the "What-Ifs" I read always had the world destroyed by the end. It is good to see one less "world-shattering" at the end. I thought if he saved her, EVERYONE would have died; in this no one died.
It would be fun to see you do What If Spider-Man joined the Fantastic Four. The ending to that story is both hilarious and sad.
I agree
The Peter Parker voice is hilarious.
I think they could have worked this storyline out. I mean, have you seen One More Day? Or Dr. Strange could have done the dead. besides, Robbie said that he was going to fix Peters image.
Ms Shasha, I must pause your very interesting video to say, as a big Marvel fan, since the 1970s. I love your version of the voices of spidy and everyone else. As a granpa now, when I read to my grandaughter she asks me to read to her in my funny voice. To make the stories interesting to her.... Some day, when I'm gone, she'll get all of my collection, which is older than her mom, my daughter. Great job.
Nico from Trinidad and Tobago
The amazing spiderman 2: the night that gwen stacy died
Spiderman no way home: what if spiderman had rescue gwen
Spiderman (2002): green goblin last stand
What-If Elektra lived -- actually written and drawn by Frank Miller -- had a happy ending, but that was one exception. Lots of the stories didn't have happy endings. The original series was, IMHO, the best because it revisited many classic stories. The more recent series that covered new events didn't have the gravitas of the older What-Ifs.
Gwen's death was tragic because it was not a tragic sacrifice, in fact it was done without any whatsoever except to ramp up Peter's angst.
While Gwen's death was done by Marvel to get rid of the character, it was also done to show how dangerous it was for a villain to know Spidey's secret identity. I think at that time, the Goblin was the only (?) villain who knew Spidey was Peter Parker. This knowledge cost him Gwen.
That's also storytelling. But mostly like someone else said, it was done because they didn't want Pete to marry. And they had determined that Pete and Gwen were just that good for each or something. They didn't want to write a break up for whatever reason.
@@DSan-kl2yc I think you are right. Because I believe there would have been no way they would have been separated. Their love for each other was too strong that only death could have separated them
I love stories that tell a different tale with the same characters parallel universe are great
Oh, my gosh! I keep cracking up at your whiny voice for Peter. That is pretty much exactly how I thought Ultimate Spider-Man sounded! I think you nailed it when you said that the What If...? staff typically had the other future be sad or hopeless so the fans would be happy with what they got. It was almost as if they became one of those horror stories that Stan and the gang created back in the 50's where everything seems good and then a twist happens that ruins everything. That is how most What If's...? go. Everything gets good and then goes really bad. There were a few with happy endings. But not many.
They should do a What If...? where Peter finds out that Gwen cheated on him with Norman Osborn BEFORE she dies! Peter sees that note saying Goblin kidnapped her and then goes to bed to sleep off that flu. And then Goblin and Gwen can have a huge argument on the bridge until the cops or some other hero comes to put the smack down on him.
Your Peter voice is crazy!!
Lmao MJ left the chat! Lmao
The perfect spiderman voice
Who would have guessed? Being dead can start you on a whole new character arch!
That's exactly what happened to Barry Allen lol
I wish Marvel would make What If an ongoing series again.
And pick up the storyline laid out here where it broke off.
Do what if spider man married black cat since you’ve been on the marriage spree ! Plus do
Some Xmen stuff !!
I want Sasha to make video on this What if!
I usually don't feel like I want more of the what if timelines because they are usually sealed in a nice capsule, but I want more of this story.
I, for one, found it amusing how you were talking about some fans feeling like Marvel uses What If? to defend the choices they did make while, at the same time, showing the cover to What If Spider-Man never married MJ
There are plenty of What If stories with happy endings* so the idea that What If's deliberately have worse endings to make readers think the original stories were better is kind of silly.
* Why is everybody laughing?
I have this "What If" volume in my stash
i always look forward to your posts. each of your posts are well done, Sasha. i dig your voices and animated descriptions and reviews. you are the best.
Loving the Gwen Stacy videos! There's not enough content on her earth 616 self.
Even in an issue of “What If?”, Gwen Stacy is still more of a plot device than an actual character. The same thing happened in Spider-Man 3 and both ASM flicks. It’s never about who she is or what she wants. It’s always about the events resulting from her being in harm’s way. By comparison, Karen Page was way more fleshed out and complex, yet no one cries for her.
The problem with the movies is that they have even restricted the character development of Gwen because they know Gwen shall be killed. Spiderman 3 was supposed to have Gwen in the final battle instead of mj but Sony changed it. The cancelled spiderman 4 wanted to introduce black cat and also it was said that both captain Stacy and Gwen shall die in spiderman 4. It was like Gwen was not really important in Sam raimi's films thanks to sony. Whereas the tasm 1 had shown the clock tower and captain Stacy saying Peter to stay away from Gwen indicated that Gwen shall die. Also tasm 2 was entirely about Peter staying away from Gwen because of seeing hallucinations of the captain whereas Gwen to help Peter. Nobody saw her as a character. Everyone wanted her to be used as a plot device who would actually be killed for mj to come forward. Had Gwen been the main love interest in tasm series than she would have been definitely been a really good character because she was the one who made the original Gwen Stacy interesting.
The only thing I can say is I can't take Peter seriously, your accent for him kills me everytime
The thing with What if is that they can never address how things would have really went. They cannot tell how successive writers would have played with things.