I love this video! Never knew any of the nuances of her life, and why she was probably ignored in adaptations for a long time. Even though she came first, it seems like during the initial run she was never his true love... with the story or fans. What I would love to see, if you're interested, is a retrospective on Mary Jane. It feels like MJ got Gwen Stacy syndrome in that some writers or adaptations only focus on MJ as a doting love interest who waits at home for Peter instead of being herself.
Your coverage of old Lois Lane comics makes MJ’s popularity make more sense. A woman who isn’t pinning to marry the hero? Who is out partying? Who cares about her career? What madness!
Additionally, MJ being her own character made her and Spidey's love story both more believable and more compelling because it meant you never felt the writer's 'invisible hand' at work to ship them, or at least not as much. Obvously writers did move them together but Gwen and other characters came out the gate with 'future GF' imprinted on them.
Although, I do question if it was possible for Peter to have caught the eye of MJ, who was pretty much a 10/10. Yes, he's Spider-Man. And yes, they grew up knowing each other, as they were next door neighbors. But in terms of realistic, would MJ have been able to be in a relationship with someone who was an average Joe but not entirely the confident guy that girls like to date? I've always wondered about that.
@@uranuslad9855 I'm just saying that MJ being the absolute 10/10 beauty she was, plus being a party girl, written in the 70s when sexual freedom was all the rage, there is no way Peter would have been able to catch her eye.
this is one of the best explainers for Gwen Stacy's ACTUAL comic history I've seen. I hate when Gwen is idealized as this perfect romance with Peter when in reality she was just kinda boring
The way I always see it is that Gwen wasn't interesting until she died. I personally really fell in love with her character from watching spectacular Spider-man because she was actually interesting and her own character there (similar to how I fell in love with Felicia from TAS where she was relationship goals, a powerful hero in her own right, and not a toxic cat thief). Really loving both spider verse movies and the general Spider-Gwen movie for how they play with the character and make her a lot more interesting and not centered around being Peter Parker's girlfriend (though I wish her intelligence was also played up more).
The original Gwen started out like Bonnie Rockwaller (the egotistical cheerleader from Kim Possible) and slowly morphed into Princess Charlotte (the naive weepy princess from Berserk). The character we call Gwen Stacy nowadays might as well be a brand new character since she is nothing like how she was initially presented before she was killed.
I do love how Gwen Stacy is one of the few characters in comics that has remained dead (not counting clones or alternative versions) as it's profound, it developed Peter as a character and it serves as a reminder of how a loved one of a superhero has a higher risk of being killed by a supervillain. That's part of a reason on why I wanted Jason Todd to remain dead... but thats a discussion for another day
Totally agreed! It was bad and tiresome when someone "died" on the cover, and then it was all fake. Gwen's death was sad and brutal, but it had a meaning; nowadays it's gotten so ridiculous, it's a sure sign for a retcon...
@@thomasraines1396, I didn't know Stan was unaware they killed her for real. But it still has at least one purpose: it adds contrast and context to Spider-Gwen. And it was a good move, frankly; it was a boost for Peter and Spidey. I liked Gwen, but her death made me adore her! "Marvels" is huge in part thanks to that!
The microcosm of how MJ and Gwen were characterized back then is this. The most memorable Mary Jane quote was (ostensibly) her first line of dialogue. The most memorable Gwen Stacy quote was the sound effect of her neck snapping.
I SO appreciate you exploring this radically different iteration Gwen was when she was first created! I only just found out about it some time ago. I, like most fans born after her death, only knew about Gwen the way Marvel likes to portray her post-death, as the perfect girl-next-door who must’ve been Peter’s great (tragic) love from the start! Your retrospective has filled in a LOT of blanks I had when I had stumbled across some images of an “eviler” (for a lack of better words) Gwen who was slighted by Peter’s ignoring her. I distinctly remember the strategically-placed hair clips that for some resembled horns. This retrospective was SUCH a joy! As a Spidey and Gwen stan, thank you!
@@OlafLesniak Yeah she was not a perfect girl. I've read ASM #1 - #175 through twice. The second time documenting and taking notes. She did bully Peter at first and later constantly called him a coward for his frequent disappearances. Then randomly she would be a nice and good which didn't make much sense. I don't think the right word is "good" more like "boring" compared to MJ at the time who seemed more consistently fun and devilishly entertaining.
I wonder if MJ being relaxed when Peter breaks a date has some tie to a later revelation that she knew Peter was Spider-Man since she lives next door and saw him heading out in costume one night? She just figures Peter had to go fight crime that night. It would also play into why some of us MJ supporters like her, because under a good writer she can handle both sides of his life, which most of his girlfriends can't.
I read the comics. MJ being relaxed rubbed Peter the wrong way. It made Peter think that MJ didn't care and that she was flighty. She was very outgoing, liberal, social, free-spirited and independent. Stan Lee referred to her as hip and fiery when talking about her to audiences.
The fact that Gwen knew that E.S.U. had awarded a science scholarship & connecting the dots to deduce Peter must be the winner could be seen as earlier evidence of her interest in science. Not that it is her major but at least of interest.
It's not just Gwen and Peter but *everyone* gets a personality change after Ditko's last issue (ASM #38) and Romita's first (ASM #39). Everyone is apologizing to everyone else about how they've been acting. Peter and Harry's friendship starts, Flash starts to think that Peter may be a good guy, and Gwen starts her "If only Peter would be friends with our group, then I would be the happiest girl around" thought balloons.
I'm gonna just say it... Gwen is basically Peter's Lana Lang, the first big romantic lead, but never truly "The One". I've read her 60's and 70's issues (My God, in those early years, she was a total bitc-I mean "rude lady with attack eyebrows"), and adore her Spectacular Spider-Man version, and TASM Gwen was good too, but... She's no Mary Jane and her death, and being Ghost-Spider made her more interesting. Ever since Spider-Gwen, she's been the defacto base model for her, because from the start, she starts off with more personality, also, less Norman Osborn creepy face and adult twin baggage.
Odd bit of trivia; in the first movie trilogy, they reversed Gwen & M.J. as if they were inter-changeable. Actual redhead Alica Witt was dumped. Kirsten Dunst (a blonde) played the redhead. Bryce Dallace-Howard (redhead) played platinum-blonde, appearing second string in the 3rd movie. Nobody died, ‘cos Sony/Marvel wanted to sell tickets. Amazing Spider-Man corrected all this with Emma Stone (another redhead playing blonde). She died, and, while not the only or main reason, franchise cancelled. The deleted scene where this Gwen meets an M.J. Played by actual redhead wouldn’t have helped. Go figure. I agree with your point, as something similar happened with Lana Lang in Superman III. Been a bit of a mess ever since.
I really, really appreciate this frank breakdown and analysis of Gwen Stacy's character. I think a lot of people tend to flanderize and treat Gwen as a patron saint or martyr and that's continued to be regularly reiterated thanks to later writers buying into and retconning Gwen. Good to see you are firmly in support of the facts.
@@blacklash2258 that's another, though I'm probably a liiiitle too young and likely grew up around the wrong demographic regardless to have heard that in person lol
Personally I feel a deep fondness for characters that are treated poorly by the narrative, be it because they're killed off in a way their death ends being what defines them, or because they're simply underdeveloped or written to be very one-note. Anytime I encounter them I low-key want to write a fic in which they're the main character and explore them further, so needless to say I find the reconstruction Gwen's character went through very interesting!! While I knew she was seen as bland before her death, I didn't know she started out as mean and self centered, and part of me kinda wishes these traits had carried over to the newest interpretations, I think these aspects of her original personality could be interesting to play with. Nevertheless, it was fun to learn about the character's journey and overall I'm happy with the interpretation we ended with.
More like once MJ was promoted to Gwen's role as leading lady, someone needed to fill MJ's previous position as the love interest for Harry. So they brought Liz back.
I remember when Gwen first started liking Peter. I was young and forgiving, and I liked her. I thought Mary Jane was hot, but very shallow, much as she was presented. I also remember that tearful Mary Jane closes the door scene, you may not understand how risque that was at that time. It was the signal that Marvel was going to give Spidey a more serious relationship. The summer before that I had began to feel more about the girls I knew than that they were just funny shaped boys that didn't want to play football with us anymore. In a sense Spidey's romantic relationships and I grew up together. Well, it actually took me longer to really grow up. and although I never actually killed any young lady I liked, I had a lot left to learn, most of it the hard way. Ah youth! Great video, thank-you.
My favorite Gwen Stacy story is still Spider-Man: Blue. It's such a beautiful tribute to her character and does a good job contextualizing how Peter never really stopped loving her.
but Peter had already moved on and ended up with Mary Jane as his wife it's not like Peter was constantly pining for Gwen.. He fell in love with Mary Jane and married her
Gwen and MJ shows the difference between writing a character as a love interest and writing one as a person. Unfortunately an especially common issue with female characters. That said I do love 616 Gwen, I really wish the traits she did have like her early haughtyness, her sharp tounge, being an uptown girl and her temper (like her turning on Aunt May and those protesters) where remembered more often instead of treating her like a total blank slate. I think the tenency amongst writers to idealise her post death is well recorded but there's also a trend to push her "role-model" traits as pushback against some of the sexist thinking around her death. However as we saw with MJ, flaws are a major part of making a memorable character.
I haven’t read the comics because there’s just SO SO many. But I came here to see how Gwen’s character is different to Emma Stone’s versions and omg there is an astronomical difference. It makes more sense why ppl liked Mary Jane better now.
I have what I call the 'Five Stages of Gwen': Stage 1 Ditko Gwen: Interesting character who simply had little place or function within the narrative. Stage 2 Early Romita Gwen: A likable character you could believe Peter might fall for, but kinda dull, derivative of some traits of MJ and ultimately outshone by her. Stage 3 Latter Silver Age Gwen: A typical Silver Age Stan Lee girlfriend. I.e. there is a lot of crying and her function is to make the male hero's life more difficult. Not a great character and you get why many fans would want her removed. Stage 4 Martyr Gwen: Essentially the Gwen from Spider-Man: Blue, Marvels, basically every story that framed her retroactively as an idealized saintly borderline Disney princess who was too sweet and innocent for this cruel, cruel world. Designed to make the tragedy of her death yet more tragic. Stage 5 Modern Gwen: Spider-Gwen, Emma Stone, Gage's take on her. Basically versions of Gwen that bear at best superficial resemblance to the character but who are pushed as both the bee's knees and 'proof' of how unjust her 'murder' was in the 1970s. The irony is Gerry Conway kind of lampooned the rabid 'bring back gwen Stacy' crowd even in the 1970s via the character of the Jackal, who was obsessed with her and tried to in effect resurrect her via cloning, the process driving him to become a twisted monster. In contrast, Peter (who loved Gwen after all), did the healthy thing and let her go, moving on. He was still sad about her death but he didn't constantly pine for her or try to bring her back.
@@EnerKaizer Except Harry was Peter and Gwen's age and his father looked like he was 40-50. Although that was likely done because he was planned to be the Green Goblin, and they already had one senior citizen villain (the Vulture).
@@SG-js2qn It's funny to think that as old as Jonah is, May marries his father, making Peter and Jonah step-cousins (kind of step-brothers, considering that May is practically Peter's mother).
This is the best, most accurate examination of the Gwen Stacy character I've ever seen. Fantastic work! You're clearly too young to have lived through her era, but you captured it brilliantly and I'd even say flawlessly. Thank you so much for this.
actually gwen's not alone in the 'premature death but hard to let go syndrome' xmen did the same with Thunderbird similar situations and feelings felt for both
truth is characters are killed off for dramatic value (not to mention various other reasons.. problem solving being the uppermost ) the original captain marvel is another but here's a case of 'what's past is prologue' as new generations of writers (and artists) take up the mantle they see the potential in these past legends and want to explore these characters and if I can utilise one more adage.. 'make that which is old new' again ...for dramatic value ..and so turns the wheel of life lol business is business it's all about selling comics at the end of the day harsh for the reader but a necessity to the industry
I used to buy Marvel Essential Spider-Man books that had several of Spidey’s comics in one book when I was in high school. I got as far as to the Death of Gwen Stacy and my only experience with the character at the time was in Spider-Man 3 so I had nothing to judge her on (Spectacular Spider-Man hadn’t come out yet). Personally I didn’t have any strong feelings for or against her attraction toward Peter because he snubbed her or her bullying him at first before she became the girlfriend and her character revolving around Peter. I honestly don’t really think she was as bad as Conway made her out to be. Maybe my memory is bad, but I felt a lot of the characters felt basic during that time period and were only starting to branch off and develop more into the iconic three dimensional characters people remember them as. On one hand I can understand how Gwen could seem as boring and not having a whole lot to her and Peter’s relationship, but I feel like they could apply Mary Jane. If I’m remembering things right we didn’t really get to see M.J. and Peter really bond and her developing until after Gwen died. Before that the comic kind of treated her as the party girl. Spider-Man was still edging out into getting stronger characterization and development I felt and characters were just gaining more depth. A lot of Gwen’s faults that made her deemed boring also applied to Peter’s first girlfriend Betty Brant. It felt like writers were still not sure how to make the love interest her own character and the love interest. It is hard for me to fully fault Gwen being kind of basic. Modern re-tellings might make Gwen bigger than life and changed her character more than what she was when she was alive, but I think it shows what Gwen could have been more than she was back in her day. Modern retelling of Spider-Man overhauling Gwen Stacy or giving her a more solid characterization IMO is no different than how we saw Lois Lane change from Superman obsessed in the Silver Age into the more modern characterization we see in Superman the Animated Series or Smallville show. The Spectacular Spider-Man animated series did a good job latching on to small detail of Gwen being a science major and using it to revamp her character and add more to her and give her and Peter something to bond over. Emma Stone version even reused that bit. Mary Jane is great and she probably could have won out over Gwen to maintain her place as the love of Peter’s life, but it feels wrong to feel Gwen boring when we know other characters got revamped and evolved to be less boring or static. Imagine if M.J. died before she evolved and just stayed the party girl. People would say she never could have been a serious option for Peter because beyond being fun and chill there was nothing else to the character. Gwen Stacy felt like the product of her time that never got the chance to be more to me than a truly boring character.
I don't know,for me MJ was more interesting than Gwen also in the early years of her introduction.She was a totally different female character,a big "desecration" in comics.I believe that Conway's had this feeling at the time,for this he chose to continue with her instead of Gwen,MJ was always been able to offer more
I never thought Gwen got a fair shake in the 616 era and fans just say she was boring cause Gerry Conway wanted his personal waifu to win so he killed Gwen. She had a lot going for her as a character but the limited category of "love interest who must not ever find out the secret identity" thing left her side of the equation in the romance less emphasized because she could never really know all about Peter's dual identity because status quo. Gwen had a lot of things that could have been explored, her love of science, her upbringing as the police chief's daughter, and her high school years where she was part of Harry's high school. She would obviously have strong feelings about making a difference and helping people because her father is who she admires and maybe we could have learned why she loves science. Aside from that we see how she valued and cared for her friends when Harry and Peter needed help and when Flash was drafted. Her dad dying also leaves a lot that could be done to explore HER adjustment to losing the only remaining parent in her life. Before Gwen's death Mary Jane was exclusively a conceited and materialistic party girl who would use catty mean girl tactics to make Gwen and Harry feel insecure. I still have trouble buying that 616!Mary Jane would ever have fallen in love with Peter if he never was bitten by the spider and became Spider-Man (especially with the "I've ALWAYS known you are Spider-Man" retcon), where as with Gwen you get the impression that she loved him for the man he was and for mutual compatibility and his wit and intellect.
@@Nightman221k I agree that there is a lot to mine for the character. That is why I really feel like it is unfair to just label her as a boring character. That implies her character even upon inception was boring and nothing could be done to make her more interesting and we know that is not true. Even Sasha's videos she pointed out how other female characters were written to be basic or just be the love interest that in the hands of different writers became far more iconic. Sue Storm/Richards or Jean Grey for example weren't really written to be the interesting and complex characters their fans know today. I truly feel like it is unfair to label Gwen as boring who only became a good character because future writers changed a lot about the original when that mentality is what allowed a lot of characters to become more memorable and thrive in comics/television/movies. The Spectacular Spider-Man animated series rebooted/re-modernized Gwen the same way a large comic reboot might have done if Marvel had done it like DC does with their universe. That series found a way to have both Gwen and MJ as independent characters, with very distinct characterization, their own interests in Peter, and things outside of him going on. I think they even managed to capture MJ's early party girl characterization and streamlined it better with her more modern characterization in a way the movies failed to do. Mary Jane and Gwen can both be interesting characters in the hands of the right writers. MJ was definitely written differently at the time of her inception, so I totally get why people fell for her. Gwen still doesn't feel any worse than say Betty Brant or May were written back in the same era. Evolution and updates for more modern audiences are bond to happen.
well, we could look at betty brant, spider-man's first love interest. She was quite important to the early spider-man mythos, being the damsle in distress in the first sinister six comic, actaully having a kinda interesting back story and a place in that world, with her brother being a doc ock henchman. I am not sure why the writers got sick of her, but they pretty effectively wrote her out of that role by making peter's spider-man life get in the way, and by having her marry a random daily bugle writer in ned leeds.
People always forget about Betty and say that Gwen was his first love. But Peter and Betty were a couple, had many dates, and often said that they loved the other. It wasn't Peter's fault that Betty was nuts.
This shows that Superheroes grow with different creators. People down the line do things that the original creator would never think to do. Usually that's for the better, like in this case.
Ah classic Gwen Stacy. My favorite Gwen. I always found it odd that Gwen was based on Joan Lee. From the footage I seen of her, Joan has always seen to me to be more Mary Jane than Gwen.
Thanks. When I started reading comics Gwen was recently dead and already starting to be deified as the lost true love. MJ was kind of the interloper, or that is how I saw it. Thanks for illustrating how it was more complicated. Ironically I have also resented the "resurrected" Gwen as "not real" because the "real Gwen", the love of Peter's life, was dead. I need to make room for Gwen and MJ. Great post.
Hmm... It would be nice to see Sasha making a video on different versions of Gwen Stacy: • Pre death Gwen • Post death Gwen • Clone Gwen Stacy • Ultimate Gwen • Spider Gwen There are some other minor versions: • Carnage Gwen • Goblin Gwen • Gwenverine: Gwen with power of wolverine • Gwen Gordon (Amalgam Universe) • Spider-woman- Bonded with Venom and formed Council of Spider-woman (Earth-617) • Multiple what ifs
This is amazing. I only really got introduced to Gwen Stacy through Spectacular Spider-man (with other adaptions being forgettable) and now it's clear they made a LOT of charges to her character and captain Stacy. From there it was Spider-Gwen and into/across the Spiderverse. It's amazing how much the character has changed from such a Rocky start. I'm also now realizing why comic fans like MJ and Peter with her so much. Dabbling more in comics myself and having really grown up and been tied to the animated adaptions, I've always liked how other characters were portrayed for Peter's love interests. Felicia -stole my heart- was my OTP with how she was written as Black Cat and Felicia in TAS and then it was Gwen Stacy in Spectacular. MJ just never really seemed interesting, but now I see more it's because she had such an impact on the role of comic book superhero civilian love interests and was so iconic at the time compared to similar characters. Now it's generally expected people know she's great and there's much less effort (especially in adaptions that want to move away from her and be different). There's also the problem when she's done there's a lot of fatigue with the character so writers feel the need to change it up in ways that alienate some fans and don't always come across well. Ironically MJ has the opposite problem of Gwen in a lot of cases. Edit: I also didn't realize how much friction her character and eventual death caused even the writers and how much controversy there was thereafter. That said she certainly doesn't seem boring leading up to her death. Her character seemed incredibly problematic with a lot of inconsistencies and missed opportunities, but she was far from just a pretty fact that was just around. At the very least pretty faces that are just around don't punch protesters for insulting the people they care about.
Yeah, Spectacular's Gwen was fantastic. I really liked MJ in that series too though...or at least what little we got of her in that series. I would say Spectacular had one of the two really good adaptations of MJ outside of the comics. The other good adaptation being Insomniac's Spider-Man game series, which took more inspiration from the Ultimate Spider-Man comics to make their version of MJ. Sadly, Spectacular wasn't around long enough for their MJ to truly become the character she was meant to be. Apparently, they planned for the story to end at Peter and MJ's marriage, so she would have come into her own eventually, and with how Spectacular handled literally everything else, I would have loved to see how they were gonna make us root for MJ and Peter after giving us literally the best version of the Gwen Stacy character. (I'm not counting Spider-Gwen because, while she is a great character, she's also so different from the original Gwen that she really only shares the name)
I'm fascinated by how characters evolve under different writers. Steve Ditko in particular had a hand in creating some of my favorite characters (namely Squirrel Girl and the second Blue Beetle) but most of the things about them I like didn't happen under his pen.
It would be nice to see Sasha making a video on different version of Gwen Stacy: • Pre death Gwen • Post death Gwen • Clone Gwen Stacy • Ultimate Gwen • Spider Gwen There are some other minor versions: • Carnage Gwen • Goblin Gwen • Gwenverine: Gwen with power of wolverine • Gwen Gordon (Amalgam Universe) • Spider-woman- Bonded with Venom and formed Council of Spider-woman (Earth-617) • Multiple what ifs
OMG, I felt SO attacked in Conway’s quote at 19:45 when he said it didn’t make sense for Peter and Gwen to be together and that “it was basically Stan fulfilling Stan’s own fantasy”. Me in 2020 SOMEHOW THOUGHT he was directly attacking ME as a Gwen stan, until I realized stan meant Stan Lee! It’s early and I may have recently woken up... 🤣
Honestly, Gerry Conway isn't even one to talk. Mary Jane had so little characterization before Gerry killed Gwen. He did it mainly because he wanted his waifu to take center stage and wrote Gwen as disposable because he didn't want to work on making her a character with more to do.
@@Nightman221k Sorry,but MJ was waaay more interesting than Gwen before she was killed.MJ was a completely different type of girl and that created interest for her in readers and writers
I remember reading issues #121-122 in my mid-teens and was totally shocked at the image at 16:35. Needless to say, as a long time reader of the comic I spent weeks trying to determine if the fall killed her or if her being caught by the webbing had. This was a radical change to the status quo and initially hard to accept- things of that nature simply didn't happen (at least, not back then). Excellent analysis Sasha- really enjoyable. Not related to this but I'd love to hear your reaction to the old E.C horror comics and how they helped bring about the age of the Comics Code Authority. Little known fact: the EC stood for Entertaining Comics (which they certainly were :)).
To be fair to Gwen, she and Peter probably wouldn't have worked out in the end anyway. She went from selfishly vying for his attention to dotting over him, to unknowingly hating his alter ego. They would have broken up or divorced in time. And to be fair to the Green Goblin, I doubt that he would give Peter the chance to actually succeed in saving Gwen. A true villain would rig the encounter from the beginning. And Both Norman and Goblin like to play mind games, so you would never know what really happened from an in-universe perspective.
Gwen Stacy and Barry Allen are characters who benefited from their deaths because they got mythologized. Before they died, they were milktoast and that they're back, I'm kinda over them especially Barry.
I actually never knew much of how her personality was when she was first introduced! This was a surprising (and amazing as usual) video and also, it's really ironic and a little funny how Mary Jane was turning into a much better character than Gwen by accident! And Stan Lee's bad memory was sadly, technically her downfall that day.. But a nice character overall. What a history
On Peter and Gwen's first date that you showed, the man with them was their chaperone on that date, none other than their science professor, Miles Warren, who would later be revealed as the Jackal. Awkward!
I've read nearly EVERY spider-man comic starting from the very beginning over the last few years and it's very fun for me to see you talking about stuff like this :)
This was a nice look at the "real" Gwen Stacy. I have to wonder if she would have enjoyed the prominence she does today if not for Marvels. Of course, throughout the whole video I found myself wondering one question. Had Lois Lane ever married Gwen Stacy? What if, true believers, what if..........
The moment Ditko walked out, Gwen's chance of being an interesting character died... And I would KILL to see you tackle the many, MANY 'Deaths' of Aunt May
We'll have to agree to disagree then, my friend. I think once Gwen was 'prettified' into a typical Romita girl (no shade on JRSR intended), the elements Ditko apparently introduced went out to the window for the idealization that Sasha examined in the video. That's cool, though. If we all didn't have differences of opinion, the world would be a much more boring place.
@@thomasdeja523 well what you are saying is true because Gwen Stacy has gone to become really interesting character whether it is in the animated series, as spidergwen or in the films whereas we cannot say the same for Mary Jane Watson at all(except spectacular spider man animated series). The main reason is actually I think Gwen Stacy had a bad character development was because John romita wanted Mary Jane (the character he introduced )to be the best as he introduced that character. He said that it was introduced to kill some characters that were close to peter. But we never go on to see aunt may die after so many years. No offense but even though he had been part of the great issues but he was the first person to stop spiderman to grow into an adult. As Peter graduated out of school in just 3years after he was introduced but I think it took more than 12 years for him to graduate college. And now he has not even crossed 30 even after these many years. PS: the things that I said about Gwen Stacy having poor character development and then later dying because of John romita was purely based on the opinion that I I have after reading an interview that was done in 2015.
@@sashikalachoudhury1803 But Spider-Gwen is a different Gwen Stacy,not like the original.In movies she has an incredibile verve cause of the better writing than Raimi's MJ(and obviously Emma Stone),but nothing more.In comics ,also in the beginning at her introduction,MjJ was more interesting.John and Stan made her like that to introduce some drama in the story but after they see MJ's potential.Conway's went on this way and decided to kill off Gwen for many reasons.I think he made the best choice.MJ is perfect for Peter and the impact of Gwen's death on his psiche has helped to make Spider-man the brilliant character he is.
Ditko's supporting characters were two dimensional and uninteresting. The comic stagnated. It wasn't going anywhere. Under Romita the supporting characters blossomed and turned three dimensional. The book turned into a soap opera, and thank goodness for that. Romita was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man at the time. In was the middle of the swinging sixties. Not the anachronistic 1940s feel of Ditko.
By far the best analysis I've seen over a supporting character. Fantastic job! By the way, never give too much credit to Stan Lee's memory, he was the first one to point out that he was terrible remembering details, even major ones. About Gwen's death in particular, I think he's given at least five completely contradictory answers.
Awesome, awesome, awesome! Well done! I was interested in the Gwen Stacy character because all I knew about was the... Snappening. Anyhoo, keep on keeping on.
Honestly, I'm just ready to forget about Gwen. Marvel simping over her just makes it feel like she's overshadowing MJ, who is a much better character. Every modern reinterpretation of her is just a boring attempt to reinvigorate a character who's defining feature was her death.
Goodness, I never before realized how closely the ESU crew of the late 60's Spider-Man comics matches the Archies! Peter, Harry, Gwen, M.J. and Flash could stand in for Archie, Jughead, Veronica, Betty, and Reggie! -- or is Flash Thompson more like Moose? Did those Spider-Man comics have the equivalent of Pop's Malt Shop and does that make J. Jonah Jameson the Spidey version of Mr. Weatherbee?
Thank you! This was a really insightful vid. Gwen is so mythologized in the modern era it's difficult to get a clear view of who she really was back then. if she hadn't died I'm sure she would have gotten a personality overhaul at some point. Most characters that have been around since the silver age have gotten one. But would that have been a change into the Gwen we recognize today? Probably not.
Hmmm, I've looked at old reprints and scans of Silver Age Spidey books, and it's hard not to think of Gwen as a new, college-era replacement for Liz Allen, Flash's old bit of arm candy who had started seeing "Puny" Parker in a new light, only to disappear after they graduated from high school. Harry, meanwhile, was just an amalgamation of all the various nameless goons and hangers-on of Flash, albeit with the additional element of being a major super-villain's son.
@@Lopez03Eduardo. It's not really good news. Now it's an even bigger convoluted mess. Retcons aren't the solution. Editors doing their job in the first place is.
A nice retrospective and interesting view of the post-death retcons. I think something similar could be done for Barry Allen, a character whose popularity had slid to the point where his title was canceled and they had no problem killing him in Crisis, who then retroactively became a saint-like figure after his death. I had a discussion with a friend who, after Barry had returned in Final Crisis & Flash: Rebirth, said he was glad to have "his Flash" back; and I pointed out that the Barry Allen who was presented in those newer comics was not the same Barry Allen that my friend had been reading as a child. (For one, Barry's parents were alive and well and still going strong at the time his book was cancelled; none of this "my dad went to jail for killing my mom" stuff).
Y’know the mention of how deaths never stick in comics (and the part about Aunt May out living all of us) made me think of the recent death of Alfred and how that’s not even the first time he’s been killed off. There was of course that time Alfred died and came back wrong as The Outsider who sought to kill Batman and Robin I think that would be a pretty interesting topic for a video. Especially how Grant Morrison used that as a plot point in his Batman run as well as how Geoff Johns reinvented the concept in New 52.
I was introduced by this in a fanfic where Alfred was using that plotline to build a connection with Red Hood Jason. Like, it's okay, Grandson, I've been where you are... lol
Just found your channel and subscribed, your content is great! Just wanted to comment on your Gwen Stay retrospective--I was a little kid in the 70's reading Spider-Man, and Gwen Stacy was my ultimate dream girl. She seemed so classy and charming. As an adult I read the reprints of the back issues from the 60's and putting it all together, there really wasn't much to the character. But there were other, better ways Gerry Conway could have gotten rid of her (since he seems to have been determined to get rid of her) than killing her. And all of those ways could have resulted in better stories and a deepening of both her and Peter's characters. A better storyline could have been: Peter saves her, tells her who he is, she believes him about her father, but then simply leaves him, as it's all too much to deal with and she needs time to think. Conway could have written her out for awhile, sent her off to London again. And Peter could have decided that it was too risky to ever let himself get that close to a girl again. Oh, well--and to think, Conway could have gotten rid of that albatross Aunt May! We live in a bad universe. And Spider-Gwen sure isn't Gwen.
You gotta admit that though Gwen had a boring personality, she did at least have an amazing sense of style in her outfit choices. The outfits she wore at 9:28 and 14:23 along with the outfit she wore when she died are some of my personal favorites.
There wasn't much to Gwen other than love interest. Some writers treating her like a saint after her death was pretty stupid too. Alternate universe versions of Gwen have more to their characters than main universe Gwen did.
Gwen Stacy was an underdeveloped character but I loved her any way. Her death gave her meaning more so than how she was used in her early existence. I love the contemporary SpiderGwen stuff. I hated the stuff where she slept with Norman blechh..
Ok I am an old fart, so lets get that out of the way! I bought Spiderman issue 121 off the shelves when it originally came out. I was 12 year old. I had to read the book twice to make sure they really killed her off. Marvel had never killed off a major beloved character like that. I was devastated. When they did that the comic world exploded. To the point Marvel had to put out a press statement that this was not a gimmick Gwen was dead dead. People were PISSED, you can not under estimate how Pissed. I was not pissed, but blown away might be a better way to describe it, but I know WHY they did it because I too, was in love with Mary Jane. As I said I was 12 years old and I was starting to notice girls and I wanted to find a Mary Jane. Writing a dialog between Peter and Mary Jane vrs Peter and Gwen was far more interesting than Gwen.
This seems to be a rule that strikes a chord for audiences and creatives alike that I didn't even think about until now.... Death makes your characters interesting, or at least forces a hand to make them more than what they were. Gwen Stacy and Jason Todd are examples of an effective retrospective re-imagining. But then you have characters like Spawn and Eric Draven are both characters introduced to us after their respective murders. The Death of Superman is a major event in comics history that shook the foundations of the industry and in hindsight made people appreciate him more. Deadpool's defining shtick that made him break out of his Deathstroke mimic mold is his relationship with death and the constant teetering towards it in spite of his inability to finally get what he wants most. When he can, something gets in d'wey (couldn't resist, I'm a child), and either his judgement is reneged, his attention refocus towards his revenge, or his psychosis and suicidal tendencies revoked as they're tied to his abilities and return only as he regenerates. Anyway, my point is that it seems that making a great character can be done in three ways. Make them suffer, kill'em, or both. lol
I was reading these comics back when they came out, though my timeline was loopy because it was impossible to get each issue sequentially, as stores just didn't carry them that way. So I'd buy a current issue when it appeared, read a slightly older issue when the reprint showed up, and read a few others, like Gwen in London and Cpt. Stacy's death, when I happened to spend an afternoon with a friend who happened to have those comics. I'm totally unfamiliar with what has been done with Gwen after the clone story. (Which was in the Spider-Buggy era, right?) Anyway, to me the relationship with Gwen was always complicated, always hot and cold, and as it went on, clearly it was going to fail. The pressure was building. MJ's entrance was cool, in part, because she was Mrs. Watson's daughter that Aunt May was trying to hook Peter up with, and he was dodging it, fearing the worst. Which was what made the reveal so special for readers, because it was a funny turn. Especially when she said he hit the jackpot, which was loaded with irony, because that was in total contrast to his ultra-complicated situation with Gwen ... to whom he was bound with sticky spiderwebs of fate. I figured Peter and Gwen would split up, probably because she blamed Spider-Man for her father's death, and would either go away or resume dating Flash. It wasn't clear Peter would hook up with MJ, though, as she was kind of flighty. And she was in and out of his life for years. Anyway, when I read the scene where Gwen dies, I immediately thought, as Stan did, what did Marvel have against the Stacy family? Sure, Cpt. Stacy was a ripoff of Commissioner Gordon that had played out, but supporting characters at this time didn't die. Only characters who were brought in for one issue died. So when Gwen died I was still feeling the passing of Cpt. Stacy, and his death was still a plot point. It felt too soon and heightened the tragedy. And Spider-Man failed them both. So no ... Gwen never felt like "endgame." She was the impossible relationship that was always heating up or blowing up. We knew it was going to end, but it ended in the worst way. Which was actually good storytelling. Bringing in the clone a bit later initially felt like a cheap move till they killed the clone off, but in the end it became a way of paying respect to the original character. A memorial. So that was good. I don't really have much interest in a more modern Gwen character. It feels like they can't make anything new, they have to dredge up the old and then destroy it. Let Gwen rest in peace, and just make a different character, because you know it's going to be a different character in the end.
It's episodes like this that I love this channel all the details and the review the go into an episode. There was alot I learned actually thanks. To me MJ always be better character but I feel I have better grasp on Gwen now. Thank you again 👍👍
Okay so I need to contextualise a few things before I say anything else. I'm a MEGA Spider-Man fan and often write or respond to folks who aren't working with the full facts because I care about that. The collective misremembering/revisionist history surrounding Gwen Stacy is a particular pet peeve of mine. With all that said I am incredibly grateful towards Sasha for this vid for so succinctly and more importantly ACCURATELY representing the topic and the characters.* BRAVO! Gonna be linking this vid from now on rather than explain all the info myself. *Was particularly impressed by the reference to Aunt May's potential death, that's often overlooked.
Wow you are very knowledgeable on the comic book industry yes the death of Gwen Stacy is the only time I ever cried reading a comic book.That was the most devastating moment in the industry and Stan lee did not know anything about it until he came home from France with his wife
10:51 George Stacy fell victim to the old Death By Secret Identity trope where either a minor character or a villain finds out a hero's identity and dies shortly after in a villain's case whether they're killed by another villain, kill themselves or die fighting the hero.
Now I want to explore how common it is for authors of serial fiction to have a character they don't personally like only become more popular with every attempt to eliminate them or make them unlikable.
Gwen was a high school crush type of thing.... I believe that Mary Jane (Watson) Parker got more development over time, and actually became more of a fan favorite during the McFarline years. (Oh baby,, yeah...)
Peter and Gwen met in college. Mary Jane was always a fan favorite which led to great trouble for Stan Lee trying to make Gwen into Peter's great love.
Third? Idk but anyway, I really appreciate your videos Sasha, I find them really informative as someone who does not really know where to start with comics
I'm old school so for me when Gwen died she was dead. I don't go in much for the retroactive changes. That said I've often felt that as significant as her death was, and it blew my teen age mind, Daredevil dropping Bullseye, even though Bullseye didn't die, was always so much more of a mindf*** to me. You see, Spidey's was an accident, whereas Daredevil deliberately, and on purpose, dropped Bullseye. DD broke The Code - a Marvel superhero always saves, and here he goes and drops a dude, puts him in the hospital. Coulda killed him. But just the sight of him dropping dude, rattled my cage. It'd be great if you could do an episode on it, Pleeeease. Great stuff you do on this channel. Love your work.
A lot of people always wanted Peter and MJ, but I always thought Gwen was the love of his life. When they killed Gwen I kept reading the book even through the Spidermobile and the clone saga. But it was never the same after Gwen and I continued buying it until 200. Because 1 to 200 seemed like a nice place to stop,, in a sense I never forgave them for killing Gwen.
I think the idea of Peter having a girl he would have married if she wasnt killed by one of his greatest enemies when she didnt even know he was spiderman is more intresting then a querky girlfreind who plays the "will they/wont they" relationship game. Arguably post her death she is more intresting then mary jane but he had to die to be that interesting.
Thanks so much for another great video! I had no idea what “original” Gwen was like, and was excited to learn. I’d love to see your video on Stan Lee and Steve Ditko’s falling out! I read a book on the history of fanzines recently, and from those accounts Ditko took his Objectivism seriously... Of all the partnerships with Stan Lee that ended bitterly, I can see this one being a saga.
Check out What If Gwen Stacy Had Lived!
ua-cam.com/video/_6SxspG-hrI/v-deo.html
didn't she become spiderwoman herself? in another issue...
I love this video! Never knew any of the nuances of her life, and why she was probably ignored in adaptations for a long time. Even though she came first, it seems like during the initial run she was never his true love... with the story or fans.
What I would love to see, if you're interested, is a retrospective on Mary Jane. It feels like MJ got Gwen Stacy syndrome in that some writers or adaptations only focus on MJ as a doting love interest who waits at home for Peter instead of being herself.
Isn't that just Mexican Spider-Man? Of is that more "What if Gwen Stacy Had Lived and also had a giant booty?"
I would love to get my hands on the Mexican Spider-Man issues where Gwen Lives.
@CasuallyComics
Can you do a Retrospective on Mary Jane Watson?
Your coverage of old Lois Lane comics makes MJ’s popularity make more sense. A woman who isn’t pinning to marry the hero? Who is out partying? Who cares about her career? What madness!
Additionally, MJ being her own character made her and Spidey's love story both more believable and more compelling because it meant you never felt the writer's 'invisible hand' at work to ship them, or at least not as much. Obvously writers did move them together but Gwen and other characters came out the gate with 'future GF' imprinted on them.
Although, I do question if it was possible for Peter to have caught the eye of MJ, who was pretty much a 10/10. Yes, he's Spider-Man. And yes, they grew up knowing each other, as they were next door neighbors. But in terms of realistic, would MJ have been able to be in a relationship with someone who was an average Joe but not entirely the confident guy that girls like to date? I've always wondered about that.
@@tjjordan4207 Nunca fez sentido a relação deles
@@tjjordan4207 She dated Harry. She wasn't that selective.
@@uranuslad9855 I'm just saying that MJ being the absolute 10/10 beauty she was, plus being a party girl, written in the 70s when sexual freedom was all the rage, there is no way Peter would have been able to catch her eye.
Casually comics is like a box of chocolates… You never know what you’re going to get next, and that’s why I love it
True never a bad episode
I know Lois Lane is still out there getting merried
You should check out Thier old channel
Shippers guide to the galaxy it's even more out Thier (in a good way)
this is one of the best explainers for Gwen Stacy's ACTUAL comic history I've seen. I hate when Gwen is idealized as this perfect romance with Peter when in reality she was just kinda boring
same here....especially when they trash Mary Jane in the process
The way I always see it is that Gwen wasn't interesting until she died. I personally really fell in love with her character from watching spectacular Spider-man because she was actually interesting and her own character there (similar to how I fell in love with Felicia from TAS where she was relationship goals, a powerful hero in her own right, and not a toxic cat thief).
Really loving both spider verse movies and the general Spider-Gwen movie for how they play with the character and make her a lot more interesting and not centered around being Peter Parker's girlfriend (though I wish her intelligence was also played up more).
It was really the movies that did Gwen justice.
The original Gwen started out like Bonnie Rockwaller (the egotistical cheerleader from Kim Possible) and slowly morphed into Princess Charlotte (the naive weepy princess from Berserk). The character we call Gwen Stacy nowadays might as well be a brand new character since she is nothing like how she was initially presented before she was killed.
Agreed.
That seems appropriate.
Nah. The Joker would NEVER have Jameson's haircut. He has some sense of style... It's warped AF but it's there.
Jameson has Reed Richards hair. 'Nuff said.
An besides, wouldn’t we have to call him Mistah J.J.J..? Yoikes!
Anyone who has Reed Richards hairstyle is sus for me, i'm sorry Stephen Strange.
@@galio7741 Stephen Strange has had many different hair styles, his facial hair is more consistent although he is clean shaven for some periods too.
@@seandarbe2521 I'm glad.
I do love how Gwen Stacy is one of the few characters in comics that has remained dead (not counting clones or alternative versions) as it's profound, it developed Peter as a character and it serves as a reminder of how a loved one of a superhero has a higher risk of being killed by a supervillain. That's part of a reason on why I wanted Jason Todd to remain dead... but thats a discussion for another day
Totally agreed! It was bad and tiresome when someone "died" on the cover, and then it was all fake. Gwen's death was sad and brutal, but it had a meaning; nowadays it's gotten so ridiculous, it's a sure sign for a retcon...
@@BlackJackLopez I’m surprised she hasn’t been brought back, not some alternative reality version of her or a clone the original Gwen Stacey.
@@thomasraines1396, I didn't know Stan was unaware they killed her for real. But it still has at least one purpose: it adds contrast and context to Spider-Gwen. And it was a good move, frankly; it was a boost for Peter and Spidey. I liked Gwen, but her death made me adore her! "Marvels" is huge in part thanks to that!
Just like Alfred.
@@GabePuratekutait’s insane Alfred still hasn’t gotten brought back. It’s been over 5 years
"It will never be Aunt May, she'll outlive us all." WELP
The microcosm of how MJ and Gwen were characterized back then is this.
The most memorable Mary Jane quote was (ostensibly) her first line of dialogue.
The most memorable Gwen Stacy quote was the sound effect of her neck snapping.
Brutal.
🌉
A existência da gwen já e por si só memorável
To you.
To me the most memorable Gwen Stacy quote was "hush your tongue, impetuous one! we night people **thrive** on moonburns!"
😤
😭naww..
"just a battle over their OTP"
Yeah that's what this is sounding like lol. Just a case of waifu wars but on the official level
The only difference between a writer's room and a fanfiction forum is that one group is getting paid lol
Even a phone call to London in the early 1970's would have cost a small fortune. Peter likely didn't have money even for that.
He might not have even had the money to send a postcard...
I mean he probably could have but he would have had to shake down JJ with photos of Spider-Man pelvic thrusting near old ladies or something.
Wait...you have videos where Lois Lane isn't marrying random men?
We now need a comic with Lois Lane marrying Peter Parker. With Gwen, Mary and Clark losing their minds.
Nope. Secretly Lois is marrying J Jonah Jameson until she realizes that hair is for real. You just gotta read through the lines.
I can see silver aged covers for Lois Lane marrying Peter Parker and another where see is Marrying J. Jonah Jamerson.
Little do you know, this is actually about that time Lois Lane married Gwen Stacy!
Every time you bring up the Normon Osborne/Gwen Stacey babies, I die a little inside.
Good news, it’s no longer canonical
I SO appreciate you exploring this radically different iteration Gwen was when she was first created!
I only just found out about it some time ago. I, like most fans born after her death, only knew about Gwen the way Marvel likes to portray her post-death, as the perfect girl-next-door who must’ve been Peter’s great (tragic) love from the start!
Your retrospective has filled in a LOT of blanks I had when I had stumbled across some images of an “eviler” (for a lack of better words) Gwen who was slighted by Peter’s ignoring her. I distinctly remember the strategically-placed hair clips that for some resembled horns.
This retrospective was SUCH a joy! As a Spidey and Gwen stan, thank you!
@@OlafLesniak Um... this video JUST showed you how she bullied Peter at first. That’s not perfect.
@@OlafLesniak Yeah she was not a perfect girl. I've read ASM #1 - #175 through twice. The second time documenting and taking notes. She did bully Peter at first and later constantly called him a coward for his frequent disappearances. Then randomly she would be a nice and good which didn't make much sense. I don't think the right word is "good" more like "boring" compared to MJ at the time who seemed more consistently fun and devilishly entertaining.
I wonder if MJ being relaxed when Peter breaks a date has some tie to a later revelation that she knew Peter was Spider-Man since she lives next door and saw him heading out in costume one night? She just figures Peter had to go fight crime that night. It would also play into why some of us MJ supporters like her, because under a good writer she can handle both sides of his life, which most of his girlfriends can't.
I read the comics. MJ being relaxed rubbed Peter the wrong way. It made Peter think that MJ didn't care and that she was flighty. She was very outgoing, liberal, social, free-spirited and independent. Stan Lee referred to her as hip and fiery when talking about her to audiences.
Gwen Stacy: death by being boring, i can respect that.
@@OlafLesniak Not at that time. 😂
Fair
The fact that Gwen knew that E.S.U. had awarded a science scholarship & connecting the dots to deduce Peter must be the winner could be seen as earlier evidence of her interest in science. Not that it is her major but at least of interest.
It's not just Gwen and Peter but *everyone* gets a personality change after Ditko's last issue (ASM #38) and Romita's first (ASM #39). Everyone is apologizing to everyone else about how they've been acting. Peter and Harry's friendship starts, Flash starts to think that Peter may be a good guy, and Gwen starts her "If only Peter would be friends with our group, then I would be the happiest girl around" thought balloons.
great point! thanks, thats how i felt about it too...
I'm gonna just say it... Gwen is basically Peter's Lana Lang, the first big romantic lead, but never truly "The One". I've read her 60's and 70's issues (My God, in those early years, she was a total bitc-I mean "rude lady with attack eyebrows"), and adore her Spectacular Spider-Man version, and TASM Gwen was good too, but... She's no Mary Jane and her death, and being Ghost-Spider made her more interesting. Ever since Spider-Gwen, she's been the defacto base model for her, because from the start, she starts off with more personality, also, less Norman Osborn creepy face and adult twin baggage.
Odd bit of trivia; in the first movie trilogy, they reversed Gwen & M.J. as if they were inter-changeable. Actual redhead Alica Witt was dumped. Kirsten Dunst (a blonde) played the redhead. Bryce Dallace-Howard (redhead) played platinum-blonde, appearing second string in the 3rd movie. Nobody died, ‘cos Sony/Marvel wanted to sell tickets. Amazing Spider-Man corrected all this with Emma Stone (another redhead playing blonde). She died, and, while not the only or main reason, franchise cancelled. The deleted scene where this Gwen meets an M.J. Played by actual redhead wouldn’t have helped. Go figure.
I agree with your point, as something similar happened with Lana Lang in Superman III. Been a bit of a mess ever since.
And Gwen wasn't even his first girlfriend...
@@jpboursaw4469 just a small note, but Emma Stone is naturally a blonde. It's just that she got famous as a redhead.
@@galio7741 That's why I said first big romantic lead.
@@galio7741 Gwen failed for the same reason Betty Brant did.
I really, really appreciate this frank breakdown and analysis of Gwen Stacy's character. I think a lot of people tend to flanderize and treat Gwen as a patron saint or martyr and that's continued to be regularly reiterated thanks to later writers buying into and retconning Gwen. Good to see you are firmly in support of the facts.
Damn Gwen, eyebrows on fleek.
No one says that anymore do they?
I'm a bit surprised anyone did.
That is so Fetch!
@@blacklash2258 that's another, though I'm probably a liiiitle too young and likely grew up around the wrong demographic regardless to have heard that in person lol
They were super schway
@@HovektheArtist Terry, you're getting another call from Mr. Wayne.
Personally I feel a deep fondness for characters that are treated poorly by the narrative, be it because they're killed off in a way their death ends being what defines them, or because they're simply underdeveloped or written to be very one-note. Anytime I encounter them I low-key want to write a fic in which they're the main character and explore them further, so needless to say I find the reconstruction Gwen's character went through very interesting!! While I knew she was seen as bland before her death, I didn't know she started out as mean and self centered, and part of me kinda wishes these traits had carried over to the newest interpretations, I think these aspects of her original personality could be interesting to play with. Nevertheless, it was fun to learn about the character's journey and overall I'm happy with the interpretation we ended with.
To think, they reintroduced Liz Allen right after killing Gwen, who first appeared after Allen's initial disappearance. Was there a one-blond limit?
More like once MJ was promoted to Gwen's role as leading lady, someone needed to fill MJ's previous position as the love interest for Harry. So they brought Liz back.
Too many blondes, gotta take one out. *writes death for the character*
The pull of MJ TOO STROOONNNGGG!!! Also thanks for teaching me some more about shipping lingo
I've cried reading spider-man blue, even though Mary Jane would forever be the one. Gwen has a special place in my heart
I really need to read the marvel color one shots. Last I heard it was spiderman, daredevil and Captain america, right?
@@doro626 hulk too. They're all great
I remember when Gwen first started liking Peter. I was young and forgiving, and I liked her. I thought Mary Jane was hot, but very shallow, much as she was presented. I also remember that tearful Mary Jane closes the door scene, you may not understand how risque that was at that time. It was the signal that Marvel was going to give Spidey a more serious relationship. The summer before that I had began to feel more about the girls I knew than that they were just funny shaped boys that didn't want to play football with us anymore. In a sense Spidey's romantic relationships and I grew up together. Well, it actually took me longer to really grow up. and although I never actually killed any young lady I liked, I had a lot left to learn, most of it the hard way. Ah youth! Great video, thank-you.
I liked Gwen too and felt that MJ was a lot more cliche and boring.
My favorite Gwen Stacy story is still Spider-Man: Blue. It's such a beautiful tribute to her character and does a good job contextualizing how Peter never really stopped loving her.
but Peter had already moved on and ended up with Mary Jane as his wife
it's not like Peter was constantly pining for Gwen..
He fell in love with Mary Jane and married her
@@fomalhauto Yeah, but maybe it's just that he hasn't forgotten about her.
He never will stop loving her. His first love. You never forget your first.
My tears go down, reading that comic
Gwen and MJ shows the difference between writing a character as a love interest and writing one as a person. Unfortunately an especially common issue with female characters.
That said I do love 616 Gwen, I really wish the traits she did have like her early haughtyness, her sharp tounge, being an uptown girl and her temper (like her turning on Aunt May and those protesters) where remembered more often instead of treating her like a total blank slate. I think the tenency amongst writers to idealise her post death is well recorded but there's also a trend to push her "role-model" traits as pushback against some of the sexist thinking around her death. However as we saw with MJ, flaws are a major part of making a memorable character.
I saw this, and got ready for the Stan Lee receipts about not authorizing the death of Gwen
I haven’t read the comics because there’s just SO SO many. But I came here to see how Gwen’s character is different to Emma Stone’s versions and omg there is an astronomical difference. It makes more sense why ppl liked Mary Jane better now.
I have what I call the 'Five Stages of Gwen':
Stage 1 Ditko Gwen: Interesting character who simply had little place or function within the narrative.
Stage 2 Early Romita Gwen: A likable character you could believe Peter might fall for, but kinda dull, derivative of some traits of MJ and ultimately outshone by her.
Stage 3 Latter Silver Age Gwen: A typical Silver Age Stan Lee girlfriend. I.e. there is a lot of crying and her function is to make the male hero's life more difficult. Not a great character and you get why many fans would want her removed.
Stage 4 Martyr Gwen: Essentially the Gwen from Spider-Man: Blue, Marvels, basically every story that framed her retroactively as an idealized saintly borderline Disney princess who was too sweet and innocent for this cruel, cruel world. Designed to make the tragedy of her death yet more tragic.
Stage 5 Modern Gwen: Spider-Gwen, Emma Stone, Gage's take on her. Basically versions of Gwen that bear at best superficial resemblance to the character but who are pushed as both the bee's knees and 'proof' of how unjust her 'murder' was in the 1970s.
The irony is Gerry Conway kind of lampooned the rabid 'bring back gwen Stacy' crowd even in the 1970s via the character of the Jackal, who was obsessed with her and tried to in effect resurrect her via cloning, the process driving him to become a twisted monster. In contrast, Peter (who loved Gwen after all), did the healthy thing and let her go, moving on. He was still sad about her death but he didn't constantly pine for her or try to bring her back.
I never realized captain Stacy looked like he was 160 years old.
Different times. It was normal around the time those comics were published that people got children way later in their live then they do now.
He was drawn to be the same age as Aunt May.
I remember when he was only a hundred.
@@EnerKaizer Except Harry was Peter and Gwen's age and his father looked like he was 40-50. Although that was likely done because he was planned to be the Green Goblin, and they already had one senior citizen villain (the Vulture).
@@SG-js2qn It's funny to think that as old as Jonah is, May marries his father, making Peter and Jonah step-cousins (kind of step-brothers, considering that May is practically Peter's mother).
What a treat. You rarely see a picture of super young Stan Lee the master. 😇
"and gave death a profound meaning for a time, one that has since long been forgotten"
(Krakoa's The Five has left the chat)
Tfw you realize Gwen is a Proto-Tsundere, predating Sayaka Yumi and Lum Invader by a solid decade.
❤"It's not like I like you or anything, baka Peter!" Gwen-kun
This is the best, most accurate examination of the Gwen Stacy character I've ever seen. Fantastic work! You're clearly too young to have lived through her era, but you captured it brilliantly and I'd even say flawlessly. Thank you so much for this.
She's like Jason Todd, then. Became way more interesting when she came back from the dead.
but she never came back from the dead. only clones and spider-gwen
@@adiilie121 Back from the dead as in being in the comics again.
Gwen Stacy is the one spiderman character Marvel refuse to bring back from the dead, while at the same time they refuse to let her stay dead.
actually gwen's not alone in the 'premature death but hard to let go syndrome' xmen did the same with Thunderbird similar situations and feelings felt for both
truth is characters are killed off for dramatic value (not to mention various other reasons.. problem solving being the uppermost ) the original captain marvel is another but here's a case of 'what's past is prologue' as new generations of writers (and artists) take up the mantle they see the potential in these past legends and want to explore these characters and if I can utilise one more adage.. 'make that which is old new' again ...for dramatic value ..and so turns the wheel of life lol
business is business it's all about selling comics at the end of the day harsh for the reader but a necessity to the industry
I used to buy Marvel Essential Spider-Man books that had several of Spidey’s comics in one book when I was in high school. I got as far as to the Death of Gwen Stacy and my only experience with the character at the time was in Spider-Man 3 so I had nothing to judge her on (Spectacular Spider-Man hadn’t come out yet). Personally I didn’t have any strong feelings for or against her attraction toward Peter because he snubbed her or her bullying him at first before she became the girlfriend and her character revolving around Peter.
I honestly don’t really think she was as bad as Conway made her out to be. Maybe my memory is bad, but I felt a lot of the characters felt basic during that time period and were only starting to branch off and develop more into the iconic three dimensional characters people remember them as. On one hand I can understand how Gwen could seem as boring and not having a whole lot to her and Peter’s relationship, but I feel like they could apply Mary Jane. If I’m remembering things right we didn’t really get to see M.J. and Peter really bond and her developing until after Gwen died. Before that the comic kind of treated her as the party girl. Spider-Man was still edging out into getting stronger characterization and development I felt and characters were just gaining more depth. A lot of Gwen’s faults that made her deemed boring also applied to Peter’s first girlfriend Betty Brant. It felt like writers were still not sure how to make the love interest her own character and the love interest. It is hard for me to fully fault Gwen being kind of basic.
Modern re-tellings might make Gwen bigger than life and changed her character more than what she was when she was alive, but I think it shows what Gwen could have been more than she was back in her day. Modern retelling of Spider-Man overhauling Gwen Stacy or giving her a more solid characterization IMO is no different than how we saw Lois Lane change from Superman obsessed in the Silver Age into the more modern characterization we see in Superman the Animated Series or Smallville show.
The Spectacular Spider-Man animated series did a good job latching on to small detail of Gwen being a science major and using it to revamp her character and add more to her and give her and Peter something to bond over. Emma Stone version even reused that bit. Mary Jane is great and she probably could have won out over Gwen to maintain her place as the love of Peter’s life, but it feels wrong to feel Gwen boring when we know other characters got revamped and evolved to be less boring or static. Imagine if M.J. died before she evolved and just stayed the party girl. People would say she never could have been a serious option for Peter because beyond being fun and chill there was nothing else to the character. Gwen Stacy felt like the product of her time that never got the chance to be more to me than a truly boring character.
I can agree with all that
I don't know,for me MJ was more interesting than Gwen also in the early years of her introduction.She was a totally different female character,a big "desecration" in comics.I believe that Conway's had this feeling at the time,for this he chose to continue with her instead of Gwen,MJ was always been able to offer more
I never thought Gwen got a fair shake in the 616 era and fans just say she was boring cause Gerry Conway wanted his personal waifu to win so he killed Gwen. She had a lot going for her as a character but the limited category of "love interest who must not ever find out the secret identity" thing left her side of the equation in the romance less emphasized because she could never really know all about Peter's dual identity because status quo. Gwen had a lot of things that could have been explored, her love of science, her upbringing as the police chief's daughter, and her high school years where she was part of Harry's high school. She would obviously have strong feelings about making a difference and helping people because her father is who she admires and maybe we could have learned why she loves science. Aside from that we see how she valued and cared for her friends when Harry and Peter needed help and when Flash was drafted. Her dad dying also leaves a lot that could be done to explore HER adjustment to losing the only remaining parent in her life.
Before Gwen's death Mary Jane was exclusively a conceited and materialistic party girl who would use catty mean girl tactics to make Gwen and Harry feel insecure. I still have trouble buying that 616!Mary Jane would ever have fallen in love with Peter if he never was bitten by the spider and became Spider-Man (especially with the "I've ALWAYS known you are Spider-Man" retcon), where as with Gwen you get the impression that she loved him for the man he was and for mutual compatibility and his wit and intellect.
@@Nightman221k I agree that there is a lot to mine for the character. That is why I really feel like it is unfair to just label her as a boring character. That implies her character even upon inception was boring and nothing could be done to make her more interesting and we know that is not true. Even Sasha's videos she pointed out how other female characters were written to be basic or just be the love interest that in the hands of different writers became far more iconic. Sue Storm/Richards or Jean Grey for example weren't really written to be the interesting and complex characters their fans know today.
I truly feel like it is unfair to label Gwen as boring who only became a good character because future writers changed a lot about the original when that mentality is what allowed a lot of characters to become more memorable and thrive in comics/television/movies. The Spectacular Spider-Man animated series rebooted/re-modernized Gwen the same way a large comic reboot might have done if Marvel had done it like DC does with their universe. That series found a way to have both Gwen and MJ as independent characters, with very distinct characterization, their own interests in Peter, and things outside of him going on. I think they even managed to capture MJ's early party girl characterization and streamlined it better with her more modern characterization in a way the movies failed to do.
Mary Jane and Gwen can both be interesting characters in the hands of the right writers. MJ was definitely written differently at the time of her inception, so I totally get why people fell for her. Gwen still doesn't feel any worse than say Betty Brant or May were written back in the same era. Evolution and updates for more modern audiences are bond to happen.
well, we could look at betty brant, spider-man's first love interest. She was quite important to the early spider-man mythos, being the damsle in distress in the first sinister six comic, actaully having a kinda interesting back story and a place in that world, with her brother being a doc ock henchman. I am not sure why the writers got sick of her, but they pretty effectively wrote her out of that role by making peter's spider-man life get in the way, and by having her marry a random daily bugle writer in ned leeds.
People always forget about Betty and say that Gwen was his first love. But Peter and Betty were a couple, had many dates, and often said that they loved the other. It wasn't Peter's fault that Betty was nuts.
This shows that Superheroes grow with different creators. People down the line do things that the original creator would never think to do. Usually that's for the better, like in this case.
Ah classic Gwen Stacy. My favorite Gwen.
I always found it odd that Gwen was based on Joan Lee. From the footage I seen of her, Joan has always seen to me to be more Mary Jane than Gwen.
extra kudos for mentioning our old friend EL Hombre Arana !!!
Thanks. When I started reading comics Gwen was recently dead and already starting to be deified as the lost true love. MJ was kind of the interloper, or that is how I saw it.
Thanks for illustrating how it was more complicated. Ironically I have also resented the "resurrected" Gwen as "not real" because the "real Gwen", the love of Peter's life, was dead.
I need to make room for Gwen and MJ. Great post.
The best thing that happened to Gwen was the Ultimate Universe.
Would love to see Sasha making a video on Ultimate Gwen.
Eh that Gwen kinda was edge as hell but to each there own my dude
I would have read 50 issues of just her an Aunt May hanging out
Hmm... It would be nice to see Sasha making a video on different versions of Gwen Stacy:
• Pre death Gwen
• Post death Gwen
• Clone Gwen Stacy
• Ultimate Gwen
• Spider Gwen
There are some other minor versions:
• Carnage Gwen
• Goblin Gwen
• Gwenverine: Gwen with power of wolverine
• Gwen Gordon (Amalgam Universe)
• Spider-woman- Bonded with Venom and formed Council of Spider-woman (Earth-617)
• Multiple what ifs
Just here To Stay yeah the edgy of the ealier 2000s alway dated the comic for me looking back at it
This is amazing. I only really got introduced to Gwen Stacy through Spectacular Spider-man (with other adaptions being forgettable) and now it's clear they made a LOT of charges to her character and captain Stacy. From there it was Spider-Gwen and into/across the Spiderverse. It's amazing how much the character has changed from such a Rocky start.
I'm also now realizing why comic fans like MJ and Peter with her so much. Dabbling more in comics myself and having really grown up and been tied to the animated adaptions, I've always liked how other characters were portrayed for Peter's love interests. Felicia -stole my heart- was my OTP with how she was written as Black Cat and Felicia in TAS and then it was Gwen Stacy in Spectacular. MJ just never really seemed interesting, but now I see more it's because she had such an impact on the role of comic book superhero civilian love interests and was so iconic at the time compared to similar characters. Now it's generally expected people know she's great and there's much less effort (especially in adaptions that want to move away from her and be different). There's also the problem when she's done there's a lot of fatigue with the character so writers feel the need to change it up in ways that alienate some fans and don't always come across well. Ironically MJ has the opposite problem of Gwen in a lot of cases.
Edit: I also didn't realize how much friction her character and eventual death caused even the writers and how much controversy there was thereafter. That said she certainly doesn't seem boring leading up to her death. Her character seemed incredibly problematic with a lot of inconsistencies and missed opportunities, but she was far from just a pretty fact that was just around. At the very least pretty faces that are just around don't punch protesters for insulting the people they care about.
Yeah, Spectacular's Gwen was fantastic. I really liked MJ in that series too though...or at least what little we got of her in that series. I would say Spectacular had one of the two really good adaptations of MJ outside of the comics. The other good adaptation being Insomniac's Spider-Man game series, which took more inspiration from the Ultimate Spider-Man comics to make their version of MJ. Sadly, Spectacular wasn't around long enough for their MJ to truly become the character she was meant to be. Apparently, they planned for the story to end at Peter and MJ's marriage, so she would have come into her own eventually, and with how Spectacular handled literally everything else, I would have loved to see how they were gonna make us root for MJ and Peter after giving us literally the best version of the Gwen Stacy character. (I'm not counting Spider-Gwen because, while she is a great character, she's also so different from the original Gwen that she really only shares the name)
I'm fascinated by how characters evolve under different writers. Steve Ditko in particular had a hand in creating some of my favorite characters (namely Squirrel Girl and the second Blue Beetle) but most of the things about them I like didn't happen under his pen.
It would be nice to see Sasha making a video on different version of Gwen Stacy:
• Pre death Gwen
• Post death Gwen
• Clone Gwen Stacy
• Ultimate Gwen
• Spider Gwen
There are some other minor versions:
• Carnage Gwen
• Goblin Gwen
• Gwenverine: Gwen with power of wolverine
• Gwen Gordon (Amalgam Universe)
• Spider-woman- Bonded with Venom and formed Council of Spider-woman (Earth-617)
• Multiple what ifs
Gwen Stacy in the Spectacular Spider-Man Cartoon was Great!
"Someone is so getting 'the look'."
She was yes.
OMG, I felt SO attacked in Conway’s quote at 19:45 when he said it didn’t make sense for Peter and Gwen to be together and that “it was basically Stan fulfilling Stan’s own fantasy”.
Me in 2020 SOMEHOW THOUGHT he was directly attacking ME as a Gwen stan, until I realized stan meant Stan Lee! It’s early and I may have recently woken up... 🤣
Well Gwen is based on Stan's wife Joan Lee , so he wanted her to be with Peter .
Honestly, Gerry Conway isn't even one to talk. Mary Jane had so little characterization before Gerry killed Gwen. He did it mainly because he wanted his waifu to take center stage and wrote Gwen as disposable because he didn't want to work on making her a character with more to do.
@@Nightman221k Sorry,but MJ was waaay more interesting than Gwen before she was killed.MJ was a completely different type of girl and that created interest for her in readers and writers
I remember reading issues #121-122 in my mid-teens and was totally shocked at the image at 16:35. Needless to say, as a long time reader of the comic I spent weeks trying to determine if the fall killed her or if her being caught by the webbing had. This was a radical change to the status quo and initially hard to accept- things of that nature simply didn't happen (at least, not back then). Excellent analysis Sasha- really enjoyable. Not related to this but I'd love to hear your reaction to the old E.C horror comics and how they helped bring about the age of the Comics Code Authority. Little known fact: the EC stood for Entertaining Comics (which they certainly were :)).
Yes, I MUST know about the wedge that formed between Lee and Ditko! I cannot rest until that story is revealed!
To be fair to Gwen, she and Peter probably wouldn't have worked out in the end anyway. She went from selfishly vying for his attention to dotting over him, to unknowingly hating his alter ego. They would have broken up or divorced in time. And to be fair to the Green Goblin, I doubt that he would give Peter the chance to actually succeed in saving Gwen. A true villain would rig the encounter from the beginning. And Both Norman and Goblin like to play mind games, so you would never know what really happened from an in-universe perspective.
Gwen Stacy and Barry Allen are characters who benefited from their deaths because they got mythologized. Before they died, they were milktoast and that they're back, I'm kinda over them especially Barry.
Spider-Gwen I don't mind so much, as she's her own character only distantly tied to the one from 616.
Honestly I wouldn’t mind more Gwen Stacy, not spider Gwen she’s pretty lame. Mary Jane just feels tired after this time.
I actually never knew much of how her personality was when she was first introduced! This was a surprising (and amazing as usual) video and also, it's really ironic and a little funny how Mary Jane was turning into a much better character than Gwen by accident! And Stan Lee's bad memory was sadly, technically her downfall that day..
But a nice character overall. What a history
I taped quicker than Gwen's neck snapping
This is a wild ass comment
Too soon!
That's interesting, but what did you tape?
Damn. That was cold.
SNAP!
On Peter and Gwen's first date that you showed, the man with them was their chaperone on that date, none other than their science professor, Miles Warren, who would later be revealed as the Jackal. Awkward!
I've read nearly EVERY spider-man comic starting from the very beginning over the last few years and it's very fun for me to see you talking about stuff like this :)
This was a nice look at the "real" Gwen Stacy. I have to wonder if she would have enjoyed the prominence she does today if not for Marvels. Of course, throughout the whole video I found myself wondering one question. Had Lois Lane ever married Gwen Stacy? What if, true believers, what if..........
Gwen's idealization predated Marvels, that was just the most visible example of it. It'd been happening in the comics before that.
The moment Ditko walked out, Gwen's chance of being an interesting character died...
And I would KILL to see you tackle the many, MANY 'Deaths' of Aunt May
We'll have to agree to disagree then, my friend. I think once Gwen was 'prettified' into a typical Romita girl (no shade on JRSR intended), the elements Ditko apparently introduced went out to the window for the idealization that Sasha examined in the video.
That's cool, though. If we all didn't have differences of opinion, the world would be a much more boring place.
@@thomasdeja523 well what you are saying is true because Gwen Stacy has gone to become really interesting character whether it is in the animated series, as spidergwen or in the films whereas we cannot say the same for Mary Jane Watson at all(except spectacular spider man animated series). The main reason is actually I think Gwen Stacy had a bad character development was because John romita wanted Mary Jane (the character he introduced )to be the best as he introduced that character. He said that it was introduced to kill some characters that were close to peter. But we never go on to see aunt may die after so many years. No offense but even though he had been part of the great issues but he was the first person to stop spiderman to grow into an adult. As Peter graduated out of school in just 3years after he was introduced but I think it took more than 12 years for him to graduate college. And now he has not even crossed 30 even after these many years.
PS: the things that I said about Gwen Stacy having poor character development and then later dying because of John romita was purely based on the opinion that I I have after reading an interview that was done in 2015.
@@sashikalachoudhury1803 But Spider-Gwen is a different Gwen Stacy,not like the original.In movies she has an incredibile verve cause of the better writing than Raimi's MJ(and obviously Emma Stone),but nothing more.In comics ,also in the beginning at her introduction,MjJ was more interesting.John and Stan made her like that to introduce some drama in the story but after they see MJ's potential.Conway's went on this way and decided to kill off Gwen for many reasons.I think he made the best choice.MJ is perfect for Peter and the impact of Gwen's death on his psiche has helped to make Spider-man the brilliant character he is.
Ditko's supporting characters were two dimensional and uninteresting. The comic stagnated. It wasn't going anywhere.
Under Romita the supporting characters blossomed and turned three dimensional. The book turned into a soap opera, and thank goodness for that.
Romita was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man at the time. In was the middle of the swinging sixties. Not the anachronistic 1940s feel of Ditko.
19:50 The quote "Only a damaged person would end up with a damaged guy like Peter Parker" doesn't sit right with me
By far the best analysis I've seen over a supporting character. Fantastic job!
By the way, never give too much credit to Stan Lee's memory, he was the first one to point out that he was terrible remembering details, even major ones.
About Gwen's death in particular, I think he's given at least five completely contradictory answers.
Death is the ultimate Mandela effect. When you lose someone, you tend to forget all the flaws they had when they were alive.
Awesome, awesome, awesome! Well done! I was interested in the Gwen Stacy character because all I knew about was the... Snappening.
Anyhoo, keep on keeping on.
Honestly, I'm just ready to forget about Gwen. Marvel simping over her just makes it feel like she's overshadowing MJ, who is a much better character. Every modern reinterpretation of her is just a boring attempt to reinvigorate a character who's defining feature was her death.
OMG PLEASE finish the vid about the Ditko/Lee drama. I'd LOVE to get your take on it
Goodness, I never before realized how closely the ESU crew of the late 60's Spider-Man comics matches the Archies! Peter, Harry, Gwen, M.J. and Flash could stand in for Archie, Jughead, Veronica, Betty, and Reggie! -- or is Flash Thompson more like Moose?
Did those Spider-Man comics have the equivalent of Pop's Malt Shop and does that make J. Jonah Jameson the Spidey version of Mr. Weatherbee?
SUCH A GOOD VID. reading collecting since 1972. Very impressed. Long time viewer first time caller. Excellent job! Thx!
Thank you! This was a really insightful vid. Gwen is so mythologized in the modern era it's difficult to get a clear view of who she really was back then.
if she hadn't died I'm sure she would have gotten a personality overhaul at some point. Most characters that have been around since the silver age have gotten one. But would that have been a change into the Gwen we recognize today? Probably not.
Hmmm, I've looked at old reprints and scans of Silver Age Spidey books, and it's hard not to think of Gwen as a new, college-era replacement for Liz Allen, Flash's old bit of arm candy who had started seeing "Puny" Parker in a new light, only to disappear after they graduated from high school. Harry, meanwhile, was just an amalgamation of all the various nameless goons and hangers-on of Flash, albeit with the additional element of being a major super-villain's son.
I don't see how Gwen constantly putting down Peter is no different than Lois putting down Clark.
Gwen hasn't tried to marry the entire cast, his rogues gallery, and some made up suitors.
@@AesculapiusPiranha 😆😆😆
Sin's Past taught me that it's best to leave Gwen's history in the past.
Good news it's no longer canon
@@Lopez03Eduardo. It's not really good news. Now it's an even bigger convoluted mess. Retcons aren't the solution. Editors doing their job in the first place is.
4:22 I seriously thought Peter was flipping her off. 🤣
A nice retrospective and interesting view of the post-death retcons. I think something similar could be done for Barry Allen, a character whose popularity had slid to the point where his title was canceled and they had no problem killing him in Crisis, who then retroactively became a saint-like figure after his death. I had a discussion with a friend who, after Barry had returned in Final Crisis & Flash: Rebirth, said he was glad to have "his Flash" back; and I pointed out that the Barry Allen who was presented in those newer comics was not the same Barry Allen that my friend had been reading as a child. (For one, Barry's parents were alive and well and still going strong at the time his book was cancelled; none of this "my dad went to jail for killing my mom" stuff).
So in summary the original Gwen Stacy was a pain in the neck.
Y’know the mention of how deaths never stick in comics (and the part about Aunt May out living all of us) made me think of the recent death of Alfred and how that’s not even the first time he’s been killed off.
There was of course that time Alfred died and came back wrong as The Outsider who sought to kill Batman and Robin I think that would be a pretty interesting topic for a video.
Especially how Grant Morrison used that as a plot point in his Batman run as well as how Geoff Johns reinvented the concept in New 52.
I was introduced by this in a fanfic where Alfred was using that plotline to build a connection with Red Hood Jason. Like, it's okay, Grandson, I've been where you are... lol
Well I'm glad to say 5 years later Alfred is still dead
Just found your channel and subscribed, your content is great! Just wanted to comment on your Gwen Stay retrospective--I was a little kid in the 70's reading Spider-Man, and Gwen Stacy was my ultimate dream girl. She seemed so classy and charming. As an adult I read the reprints of the back issues from the 60's and putting it all together, there really wasn't much to the character. But there were other, better ways Gerry Conway could have gotten rid of her (since he seems to have been determined to get rid of her) than killing her. And all of those ways could have resulted in better stories and a deepening of both her and Peter's characters. A better storyline could have been: Peter saves her, tells her who he is, she believes him about her father, but then simply leaves him, as it's all too much to deal with and she needs time to think. Conway could have written her out for awhile, sent her off to London again. And Peter could have decided that it was too risky to ever let himself get that close to a girl again. Oh, well--and to think, Conway could have gotten rid of that albatross Aunt May! We live in a bad universe. And Spider-Gwen sure isn't Gwen.
You gotta admit that though Gwen had a boring personality, she did at least have an amazing sense of style in her outfit choices. The outfits she wore at 9:28 and 14:23 along with the outfit she wore when she died are some of my personal favorites.
Sasha, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your passion, and research.
“We have multiple plots where Gwen takes care of a sick Peter.” I thought this channel was family friendly 😉
There wasn't much to Gwen other than love interest. Some writers treating her like a saint after her death was pretty stupid too. Alternate universe versions of Gwen have more to their characters than main universe Gwen did.
Gwen Stacy was an underdeveloped character but I loved her any way. Her death gave her meaning more so than how she was used in her early existence. I love the contemporary SpiderGwen stuff. I hated the stuff where she slept with Norman blechh..
Got here as fast as I could! Notifications OP
Ok I am an old fart, so lets get that out of the way! I bought Spiderman issue 121 off the shelves when it originally came out. I was 12 year old. I had to read the book twice to make sure they really killed her off. Marvel had never killed off a major beloved character like that. I was devastated. When they did that the comic world exploded. To the point Marvel had to put out a press statement that this was not a gimmick Gwen was dead dead. People were PISSED, you can not under estimate how Pissed. I was not pissed, but blown away might be a better way to describe it, but I know WHY they did it because I too, was in love with Mary Jane. As I said I was 12 years old and I was starting to notice girls and I wanted to find a Mary Jane. Writing a dialog between Peter and Mary Jane vrs Peter and Gwen was far more interesting than Gwen.
After the Gwen death issue, it took the wind out of my sails so much I drifted away from buying the comic!
This seems to be a rule that strikes a chord for audiences and creatives alike that I didn't even think about until now.... Death makes your characters interesting, or at least forces a hand to make them more than what they were. Gwen Stacy and Jason Todd are examples of an effective retrospective re-imagining. But then you have characters like Spawn and Eric Draven are both characters introduced to us after their respective murders. The Death of Superman is a major event in comics history that shook the foundations of the industry and in hindsight made people appreciate him more. Deadpool's defining shtick that made him break out of his Deathstroke mimic mold is his relationship with death and the constant teetering towards it in spite of his inability to finally get what he wants most. When he can, something gets in d'wey (couldn't resist, I'm a child), and either his judgement is reneged, his attention refocus towards his revenge, or his psychosis and suicidal tendencies revoked as they're tied to his abilities and return only as he regenerates. Anyway, my point is that it seems that making a great character can be done in three ways. Make them suffer, kill'em, or both. lol
I was reading these comics back when they came out, though my timeline was loopy because it was impossible to get each issue sequentially, as stores just didn't carry them that way. So I'd buy a current issue when it appeared, read a slightly older issue when the reprint showed up, and read a few others, like Gwen in London and Cpt. Stacy's death, when I happened to spend an afternoon with a friend who happened to have those comics.
I'm totally unfamiliar with what has been done with Gwen after the clone story. (Which was in the Spider-Buggy era, right?)
Anyway, to me the relationship with Gwen was always complicated, always hot and cold, and as it went on, clearly it was going to fail. The pressure was building.
MJ's entrance was cool, in part, because she was Mrs. Watson's daughter that Aunt May was trying to hook Peter up with, and he was dodging it, fearing the worst. Which was what made the reveal so special for readers, because it was a funny turn. Especially when she said he hit the jackpot, which was loaded with irony, because that was in total contrast to his ultra-complicated situation with Gwen ... to whom he was bound with sticky spiderwebs of fate.
I figured Peter and Gwen would split up, probably because she blamed Spider-Man for her father's death, and would either go away or resume dating Flash. It wasn't clear Peter would hook up with MJ, though, as she was kind of flighty. And she was in and out of his life for years.
Anyway, when I read the scene where Gwen dies, I immediately thought, as Stan did, what did Marvel have against the Stacy family? Sure, Cpt. Stacy was a ripoff of Commissioner Gordon that had played out, but supporting characters at this time didn't die. Only characters who were brought in for one issue died. So when Gwen died I was still feeling the passing of Cpt. Stacy, and his death was still a plot point. It felt too soon and heightened the tragedy. And Spider-Man failed them both.
So no ... Gwen never felt like "endgame." She was the impossible relationship that was always heating up or blowing up. We knew it was going to end, but it ended in the worst way. Which was actually good storytelling.
Bringing in the clone a bit later initially felt like a cheap move till they killed the clone off, but in the end it became a way of paying respect to the original character. A memorial. So that was good.
I don't really have much interest in a more modern Gwen character. It feels like they can't make anything new, they have to dredge up the old and then destroy it. Let Gwen rest in peace, and just make a different character, because you know it's going to be a different character in the end.
It's episodes like this that I love this channel all the details and the review the go into an episode. There was alot I learned actually thanks. To me MJ always be better character but I feel I have better grasp on Gwen now. Thank you again 👍👍
Okay so I need to contextualise a few things before I say anything else. I'm a MEGA Spider-Man fan and often write or respond to folks who aren't working with the full facts because I care about that. The collective misremembering/revisionist history surrounding Gwen Stacy is a particular pet peeve of mine. With all that said I am incredibly grateful towards Sasha for this vid for so succinctly and more importantly ACCURATELY representing the topic and the characters.*
BRAVO! Gonna be linking this vid from now on rather than explain all the info myself.
*Was particularly impressed by the reference to Aunt May's potential death, that's often overlooked.
Wow you are very knowledgeable on the comic book industry yes the death of Gwen Stacy is the only time I ever cried reading a comic book.That was the most devastating moment in the industry and Stan lee did not know anything about it until he came home from France with his wife
10:51 George Stacy fell victim to the old Death By Secret Identity trope where either a minor character or a villain finds out a hero's identity and dies shortly after in a villain's case whether they're killed by another villain, kill themselves or die fighting the hero.
Now I want to explore how common it is for authors of serial fiction to have a character they don't personally like only become more popular with every attempt to eliminate them or make them unlikable.
I’m more curious about Mexico rejecting canon tbh. Time to go deep dive on that
Gwen was a high school crush type of thing.... I believe that Mary Jane (Watson) Parker got more development over time, and actually became more of a fan favorite during the McFarline years. (Oh baby,, yeah...)
Peter and Gwen met in college.
Mary Jane was always a fan favorite which led to great trouble for Stan Lee trying to make Gwen into Peter's great love.
Third? Idk but anyway, I really appreciate your videos Sasha, I find them really informative as someone who does not really know where to start with comics
Spider gwen has to be the coolest version of Gwen Stacey yet
"It will never be Aunt May..." except in Marvel's Spider-Man on PS4
Sony in a single game did what Marvel has never had the courage to do for decades.
I'm old school so for me when Gwen died she was dead. I don't go in much for the retroactive changes. That said I've often felt that as significant as her death was, and it blew my teen age mind, Daredevil dropping Bullseye, even though Bullseye didn't die, was always so much more of a mindf*** to me. You see, Spidey's was an accident, whereas Daredevil deliberately, and on purpose, dropped Bullseye. DD broke The Code - a Marvel superhero always saves, and here he goes and drops a dude, puts him in the hospital. Coulda killed him. But just the sight of him dropping dude, rattled my cage. It'd be great if you could do an episode on it, Pleeeease. Great stuff you do on this channel. Love your work.
A lot of people always wanted Peter and MJ, but I always thought Gwen was the love of his life. When they killed Gwen I kept reading the book even through the Spidermobile and the clone saga. But it was never the same after Gwen and I continued buying it until 200. Because 1 to 200 seemed like a nice place to stop,, in a sense I never forgave them for killing Gwen.
I think the idea of Peter having a girl he would have married if she wasnt killed by one of his greatest enemies when she didnt even know he was spiderman is more intresting then a querky girlfreind who plays the "will they/wont they" relationship game. Arguably post her death she is more intresting then mary jane but he had to die to be that interesting.
Thanks so much for another great video! I had no idea what “original” Gwen was like, and was excited to learn. I’d love to see your video on Stan Lee and Steve Ditko’s falling out!
I read a book on the history of fanzines recently, and from those accounts Ditko took his Objectivism seriously... Of all the partnerships with Stan Lee that ended bitterly, I can see this one being a saga.