Thoughts on THE PREMIUM Edit and Move List Tiers in general? Let me know here! I tried to cut out as much fluff as possible, leaving mainly chat comments relevant to the list or jokes, but with 165 moves to get through it's still uh...quite a doozy.
Your commentary is great with and without chat. I really look forward to all of your tier lists! One suggestion I have is to make another tier for moves between staples and filler/outclassed for niche moves that can be even better than a staple counterpart in the right scenarios, such as pin missile on Mega Heracross or quick attack on aerilate Pinsir
Negative priority on teleport is actually exactly what you want. You can always switch out with positive priority so there'd be no point in the move if it did that. Switching with negative priority means you can choose to use that to take the hit on the pokemon you're switching out rather than the one you're switching in.
1:35:27 The main reason might be that fighting moves are portrayed as being more skillful than normal moves. Snorlax throwing out a Mega Punch may be powerful, but it is much less skillful and perfected than, say, a Machamp using Dynamic Punch.
I gotta say, for future videos of this type, I think Filler should be at the bottom, as someone sort of mentioned in the VOD. Like, I don't think filler moves should be considered bad, but I feel like having it in the middle results in weird situations, like a move in Niche will be debated being 2 tiers higher, and just in general I feel like Filler doesn't conduce itself well to be tiered. I think it makes more sense as an Untiered or sorts where you put the moves that are used because there aren't better options at the time but are also generally pretty bad (especially considering we are taking competitive into account where filler moves never get used). At minimum I feel like switching Niche with Filler in position is a good idea.
Cheese - you have the best voice. I just put some of these videos on in the background while I'm working, there's something really calming and great about your delivery.
Pay day can technically be a niche move. Specifically in colosseum you can use pay day + amulet coin in the deep colosseum (gets you like 30,000 a battle), but that doesn’t matter in comp
Also in Gen 1, Pay Day was the only unlimited means to generate money before the Elite 4, since no other trainers could be rematched, and there existed no replenishable item sources.
If you're playing a ROM hack where money is extremely difficult to earn and everything, including healing at the Pokemon Center, costs a lot of money and losing battles costs your Pokemons... Pay Day is actually God tier! ... Yes, that's extremely specific and not even official :c
I actually like that it's called "Sky Attack"; has that flavor of something powerful with an unassuming name, which I think is always kinda cool. You know, like how the planet-devastating magic in Final Fantasy VII is just plainly called "Meteor"? Just one simple, minimally descriptive word, nothing fancy? Leaves an impression.
Should note that Bug is super affective against poison in gen 1 so Jolteon uses Pin missile to delete the Grass Types. In competitive it deletes Exeggutor which is very strong in Gen 1 so that's also a thing.
There is exactly ONE niche for Mega Kick in competitive play; in GSC OU, on belly drum snorlax teams that pass it Agility, Snorlax will very very occasionally use Megakick for Double edge power without the recoil killing itself from half health and max attack. And that's an incredibly niche pick on a niche team style on a somewhat niche Snorlax set.
I would like to say that while at first glance, Steel resisting Psychic doesn't make a lot of sense, you have to realize that it was originally done to nerf the Psychic type because it was WAY overpowered in Gen 1. It was only resisted by itself, and it was only weak to the worst type in the game at that point. And because it was accidentally immune to Ghost and super effective against poison, it could just obliterate Gengar. Steel was also meant to balance out the Normal type, which was also overpowered in Gen 1. Also instead of the spoon type of way, you could see Steel in this case as like a tinfoil hat. The metal prevents the mind powers from doing as much damage. Steel is definitely overpowered though. I think that Steel should be weak to Water, since water causes oxidation and rust, and maybe make more types resistant to it? Steel is due for a nerf.
if steel gets a water weakness then water should get a poison weakness, water is also a pretty overpowered typing at the moment and poison is still one of the worst attacking types even with the buff it got from fairy.
@@spectralwiitch7544 only weak to electric and grass, and grass isn't that important cause it's a meh attacking type, while being offensively powerful at the same time. Plus there's a lot of really good water pokemon out there since it's such a common type.
@@spectralwiitch7544 bruh is that really a damn question they only have 2 damn weaknesses?? Not too mention Water has the biggest roster in the entire lore.. water has always been one of the most powerful types since gen 1
You mentioned how Gust went from normal/physical to flying/physical to flying/special but no mention for bite that was normal/physical then dark/special and then dark/physical
What’s even funnier is that literally every attacking Dark move from Gen 2 and 3 becomes physical in Gen 4. So why did Game Freak ever make Dark a special type to begin with 😂
@@BlueGamingRage yea that does make sense. And also they added Steel type at the same time, which was physical. So they were trying to find a balance between the amount of physical and special types.
I feel like the Niche tier should be above the Filler/Outclassed tier, not below. Niche means that you're using it because you actually have a strategy for it, it gives you a desirable effect you can't get from something else. You wouldn't replace Haze with Flamethrower if you wanted a way to get rid of opponent stat buffs. You would replace Ember though, because Ember is outclassed, and literally the only reason you might be using Ember over Flamethrower is because Flamethrower isn't available to you. So I would swap those 2 tiers around and maybe move a few moves that have a legitimate niche use like Dig and Bonemarang into Niche.
gen 6 and 7 mega latias uses reflect type iirc, combined with recover and the fact most types resist themselves it makes it a incredible defensive move, though sadly no other uses i know of.
The one time I actually bred a competitive wifi team, I used Z-Conversion Porygon-Z with Blizzard and Ninetales-Alola. It wasn't very good, but it was a lot of fun
I honestly love the Leech Life buff. It's a fantastic coverage move on Pokemon with enough bulk, defensive typing, or boosting moves to take a couple hits, particularly in single-player, where it'll save you a nice chunk of money or backtracking time on long routes. When I saw the new power in Gen 7, I did a quadruple-take, then looked it up on Bulbapedia. I suspect that, when designing Gen I, they figured that damage dealt + healing increased your "net HP advantage" by the same amount as a move with 1.5 times its power, which is why draining moves are so weak (and, it's a fair reason to keep them relatively weak).
Disable is sometimes competitively used on some pokemon, especially when paired up with Substitute. Most mons absolutely need a key move to function, and being deprived of it makes them useless, so they have to switch out and lose momentum. It can break stall by preventing recovery moves, or make sweepers unable to set up.
@@ImportedCheese You were able to recognize your mistake and learn from it. I’m willing to let that transgression slide. Unfortunately, I’m not involved with the other ones, so that’s the extent of my authority.
Salazzle with disable is a menace in competitive mons. Substitute + disable is very niche but very effective especially on such a fast monster that can toxic anything it wants
Another great and interesting video man, especially interesting hearing about translation differences and changes in recent generation I wasn't aware of (there's so many moves these days its hard to keep track. A few minor comments: - Surely metronome should at worst be at the top of useless as chances are you're going to be pulling out a move better than the rest of the moves in tha ttier - I'm a bit confused about why you've put solar beam so much higher than sky attack, I know solar beam has sun synergy but you explained why this is often pretty niche and sky attack has higher crit rate, flinching and a better typing - Not really expecting this to affect the tiering of many/any moves as its only a couple of spin offs but probably worth mentioning that as you mention collosseum and XD during Surf, in that game a lot of the usability of these moves is switched on its head, especially non-damaging moves (light screen/reflect, status moves) as often the best strategy is to null the threat of one of your opponents' mon and focus on the other - Don't know if this was mentioned by the chat during the stream but in Spanish "Slam" is translated as "Portazo" which specifically means slamming a door - In UK English it is vice
Finally fully watched it (At 2× speed)! I quite agree with your ranking. Only things that could be changed according to me are that Confuse Ray and Hyper Beam are better while Sweet Kiss, Hypnosis, and Sing are worse.
Growl in gen I is one of the best moves. It allows you to get an instant level 100 pokemon. When you use the Mew glitch, you normally find the pokemon at level 7. For any change to the attack stat during the previous fight, the level of the pokemon changes, so if you use 6 growls on the slowpoke, you encounter Mew at lvl 1 and then you can take it straight to 100. For me this justifies Growl having its own tier above Meta-Defining.
You're forgetting the best aspect of Bonemerang: you can teach Earthquake to someone else instead lol Really really liking this edit btw. Really well done!
34:15 Disable is actually a lot more useful than you'd think , its used by mons which have very few counters like calyrex shadow disabling knock off from yveltal after it gets a sub hence not being contered , some mons would run disable to counter choiced mons they would otherwise die to and in doubles disable is used sometimes so stop mons like mega mence , xerneas , talonflame[gen 6 stuff] lunala and among some other things which I think gives it a solid niche
I'm Italian, and I always thought the "counter" that counts things made sense, since counter gives double damage, it's like the pokémon counts the damage it's taking to then give back the double.
Sorry, Cheese. Watching the rest of the non edited version, as I enjoy more when things are unaltered and raw. . . Was that a vine boom sound effect?? I have to watch both versions now! Also, its funny how both videos have more differences than Pokémon versions lol.
@@ImportedCheese I suppose I may have come off as sarcastic, but I was being genuine. There's a ton of moves and you're looking at them on a pretty broad scale. Cutting a 7 hour stream down to 3 hours is a major feat. And I've only watched about 26 minutes so far, but the editing is done quite well.
Moves like Acid/Acid Spray remind me of Yu-Gi-Oh retrains. Like, they print a card years after an old card that invalidates said old card. As you said: 40 BP + 10% SpD drop -1 into 40 BP + 100% SpD drop -2. Yep, Acid Spray is the Meteor Black Comet Dragon of the Pokémon world.
About Explosion/Self-Destruct, fainting completely ended the turnin older generations, so if your opponent survives the move and would go second, it doesn't let them move until the next turn. What this essentially means is that they can't set up Spikes if you boom
Fly should be meta defining, or at least higher in staples, for its out-of-battle usage. You’ll pretty much always have a flier in a playthrough for that reason.
The nice thing about haze is that it does good on stall mons that don’t get clear smog. Stall mons get bodied when someone starts spamming swords dance or nasty plot. So haze lets you stall and not get swept.
i don't quite underdtand why niche is below outclassed. niche are sometimes used due to having niche usage, filler should never be used due to better options. still, loved the video!
I remembered reading that having Mist up prevented your stats from being reset by Haze (at the time I was really into Balanced Hackmons on Showdown, where prankster haze is very common), so I tried using it. It was a lie, and I immediately got rid it after the battle where I tried it
Weird italian translations for gen 1 moves don't stop at Counter, so many are weird and a bunch of them are straight up wrong. Here's some of them off the top of my mind: - tackle > azione (name for "a tackle" in football) - take down > riduttore (literally something that "reduces") - double edge = sdoppiatore (literally sometimes that "doubles... sometimes else?") - pound > libbra (translation for "pound" as in the measurement unit) (later fixed in gen3) - glare > bagliore (as in glaring, dazzling) (later fixed)
For Hyper beam and Hyper Beam's variants: -Hyper beam is meant to be severely offensive, no defense. I'm not quite sure what it should do, but it needs to be something that heavily reduces defensive options when used. -Hyper Beam like attacks on the other hand, are pretty simple: The attack will cost you your next turn, unless you strike an opponent's weakness. The attack will not connect and you lose a turn if it is resisted.
Confusion; while not that good on its own, CAN be comboed well with Paralysis with either Static, Thunder Wave, or Body Slam. Sure it’s essentially waisting 2 turns to ensure that the opponent can’t do anything for a few turns, but not only is it very reliable that they can’t do anything, they also be slower meaning that KOs become MUCH easier. You could even use it to set up with boosting moves like Dragon Dance and co. In some games it’s even easy to find: in B2W2 you can early on get Ampharos which has both Confuse Ray and Thunder Wave to directly inflict Para-Fusion, but it also has several indirect ways of doing it to like Static, Signal Beam, and a good chunk of its electric attacks. Ampharos if you’re lucky enough can inflict both in the same turn and is probably the best use of Para-Fusion in game.
In gen 5 what people usually did, and I think that was even more broken with Mega Gengar in Smogon formats, is using Substitute + Disable to get rid of key moves that can stop your Pokemon's set up. I can't see it in mostly useless. It was used most often with Gengar back when it had levitate because despite how frail it was it was almost immun to everything. And only a handful of moves could hurt him making it a great Disable user
my favorite gen 1 move jank is counter being able to counter damage taken on the previous turn if the opponent switches out the turn you use it. this includes damage taken by a different pokemon that fainted the previous turn. sometimes gengar runs counter because of this despite not being able to take damage from normal and fighting moves.
Heard him say "recently" when talking about pin missle getting buffed with heracross skill link and remembered that X and Y with Megas came out 10 years ago. My back hurts from hearing this
Their is a fun glitch in red/blue/yellow/green, if you give your gengar in gen one, and they knock out your Pokémon and bring gengar out and use counter, it does damage equal to what happen to your last Pokémon.
Toxic/Leech Seed was significant in my defeat of Lance because his mons would spam Agility against my three weak-to-Psychic Pokémon while they got healed. In fact, Razor Leaf did next to nothing against his dragons, allowing him to repeatedly potion while I lost pp, while the combo took a mon out in a few turns. For the record, those three mons were Machamp, Gengar, and Venusaur. Machamp was necessary to beat Lorelei, Venusaur to beat Lance (and the Champion, due to…), and Gengar absolutely carried with its 1 pp up Thunder (HUGE weakness among the Elite Four), Psychic (obviously), Seismic Toss (for attrition), and Mega Drain, which saw niche use but was ultimately influential in OHKOing Bruno’s Onixes and the Champion’s Rhydon AND healing him up to near full.
Psywave actually had a use in competitive. It was an alternative Seismic Toss for Chanseys who wanted to hit Gengars thinking they could just scare it away. ... It came at the cost of requiring to use the hidden ability Healer which is 100% useless, and of course unstable damage. Some people still found it to be an acceptable trade anyway.
@@ImportedCheeseOh it can also desync games on cartridge and force a draw. Level 3 Jigglypuff I think? Since that is the lowest level mon you can catch that has psywave, there is a chance for it to do one damage for one player's POV and 0 for the other, which leads to the match being unplayable. It's something to do with the game and gow selecting moves works... So, kinda useless and it's patched out on PS but hypothetically you could do that to come back from losing a round 2 in a best of 3 by forcing a draw. PlagueVonKarma made a video on it that explains it better i love gen 1
@@ImportedCheese pin missile is really nice too for exeggutor and alakazam but thunderwave kinda handles alakazam anyway and i usually send jolteon in against eggy just to eat a sleep powder anyway. ive tried running both double kick and pin missile but giving up rest is a tough choice for so much coverage i don't end up using 90% of the time.
@@ImportedCheese Upon further research, I realized I am an idiot and it was Pika Cup, where some Trainers carry Dragon Rage. A cup where things are Lv. 15-20, so even a perfect Chansey dies to 4 of these, and many things are 2 shot by it.
Since the live video is now unlisted and so is my other comment - Acid and Sludge deserve better! Poison is a bad type, but there are Pokemon that rely on these moves through their level 10s-20s and can actually be competent. I'm talking Tentacool, Bellsprout, Gulpin - especially Gulpin. Move Acid and Sludge up to Filler tier with Bubblebeam! #justiceForAcid
No Recharge Hyper Beam could never be in another game ever, especially with 200 Base Power. It would be completely abused by Aerilate (and the other types variants) Pokémon. Imagine Alolan Golem's Explosion, but instead of being a last resort it is it's main attacking option. I remember that, in Almost Any Ability, Noivern was banned because of Aerilate Boomburst. Imagine that, but with double the strength and in a metagame where Pokémon are actually balanced. No thanks
I can actually think of a time when Focus Energy is good in Gen 1, as niche as it may be! It's something you'd mostly see in challenge playthroughs like Nuzlockes or one-mon runs, but Gen 1's crit mechanics can actually make your moves weaker if your stats have been boosted, since they ignore both positive and negative stat alterations. If you were to set up with a Pokémon (particularly a fast one since they have higher crit rates) to where they're dealing more than twice the damage they would without boosts, using Focus Energy might actually be the play, since if you can prevent crits, you can prevent yourself from losing that extra damage! Very much a niche situation, but one worth considering when it comes to weird Gen 1 mechanics :p
@@ImportedCheese Lmao yeah, that's the biggest thing with that strat. Good for Pokémon who have high speed and not a lot of moves to use! Less so for uh, most other things :p Fun little niche there for challenge runs though, if you can figure out a place to slot it in! I follow some folks who do solo runs, trying to get the best time on various Pokémon at the lowest levels and least number of resets they can, and considering how sometimes their runs get trashed by goodbad crit rolls after they've set up with either normal Attack/Special boosts of the badge boost glitch, using Focus Energy to negate some of the rng there immediately came to mind, especially for Pokémon that only really need one or two moves per battle, since a lot of the time you can change up their movesets between, say, the Elite Four members once you've taken out a given trainer and no longer need a particular move. Not something you'd wanna use in a regular playthrough my any means, but it's got potential in the right context!
I still think being able to take out Psychic and Dark types using one move is good, but maybe that's just because both Johto and Unova E4 teams use those types extensively.
I feel like you should have a tier between staple and filler. like the..... "reliable" tier. Moves you wouldn't like as your primary STAB move, but coverage or a decent fallback if another pokemon just needed that Quake, Flamethrower, Icebeam etc TM more I don't mean to get too technical but I feel like the bar in Pokemon for that kinda thing is around 60 base power because of the way Stab and attack modifiers are calculated so if your attacking off Stab,or a weakness you are still hitting around that nice gold standard 100 base damage reliably. and 60 is about the damage you want because if you go lower than you start running into "Hey STAB will get more damage than a x2 weakness" more often This is usually the bar for how tolerable a move is to take into the end game too. Like I would not be thrilled with an end game powder snow, but id basically be ok with an end game Aurora Beam. BUT I'm overthinking it because its Pokemon, you can just press A to win usually
Maybe, the tiers certainly are subject to change, but I think "filler/outclassed" is enough of a catch-all, especially since no generation introduced as many moves as Gen 1
1:43:05 Somebody probably already commented this but in Gen 1, both Night Shade and Seismic Toss ignore the respective damage immunities! There are still niche differences between them like, seismic toss can be hit by counter but has more pp iirc? Ofc that only matters in Gen 1, but Gen 1 competitive is the only one that matters, right? (i'm joking but also not i love gen 1)
People always go nuts for Gen 3 Surf until they realize the mechanics are different for G3 doubles, namely that spread moves that don't hit your ally have their power cut in half instead of 75% (and those that do hit them like EQ stay at 100% power). I honestly think that system should've stayed in place, or at least the 100% power to ally included moves, because it just made certain moves (like surf) objectively worse for no reason even if it did make those 100% power moves very powerful through team composition/synergy. This mechanic in gen 3 also makes Waterfall somewhat decent even without the PSS and flinch chance just for being a solid non-spread water move dealing 80 power instead of 47.5 to a specific target (most of the time what you'd want which is why Surf is so underwhelming, even in story mode). Also pre-fairy Togekiss with Tri Attack is pretty cool (Togetic from XD:GoD gets it). Solid damage + 60% status lottery is always a good time.
In my playthrough of the Rutile Ruby / Star Sapphire hack of ORAS, I really grew to love Galvantula - and Galvantula is what made me finally appreciate Thunder. Set up dem sticky icky spidery webs, then THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER xD
In gen 1 pvp, bind and wrap have a bonus effect called "lose whatever few friends you have" Hyperbeam was pretty decent on Slaking in gen 3 at least. Shouldn't change it's ranking, but you don't get the move specific downside... since you have the Slaking debuff 😹 But only gen 3, anything after absolutely not. But you brought it up in your video so, yeah. I dunno, I would never use it anyway. I think Slaking is cool but I have used it once and it is tedious.
@@ImportedCheese maybe I should make a long comment using random made up math to start an argument to defend Slaking for no reason. Then you can make video called "King" as a sequel to "Dun"
Thoughts on THE PREMIUM Edit and Move List Tiers in general?
Let me know here!
I tried to cut out as much fluff as possible, leaving mainly chat comments relevant to the list or jokes, but with 165 moves to get through it's still uh...quite a doozy.
Your commentary is great with and without chat. I really look forward to all of your tier lists!
One suggestion I have is to make another tier for moves between staples and filler/outclassed for niche moves that can be even better than a staple counterpart in the right scenarios, such as pin missile on Mega Heracross or quick attack on aerilate Pinsir
It's a good edit for sure !
I’m sad that I missed this stream :(
How do you have Sleep but not Sleep Powder? 🤔😡🤦
2 years later and this is still one of my comfort videos for insomnia nights
Cut costs 32 BPs in BDSP, you can get a bottle cap with 25, you can get the choice items for 25...
Being robbed a third time with that move smfh
Nothing in BDSP is logical.
If only you could use Cut TMs on the opponent mid battle
BDSP is unintentionally the funniest Pokemon game, everything I learn about it is just bonkers lmao
That’s bullshit 🤣 makes me wish HMs were back again
Negative priority on teleport is actually exactly what you want. You can always switch out with positive priority so there'd be no point in the move if it did that. Switching with negative priority means you can choose to use that to take the hit on the pokemon you're switching out rather than the one you're switching in.
Teleport Clefable was a mistake
@@ImportedCheese Clefable was a mistake
@@ImportedCheese You say that as if Gamefreak cares at all about singles
@@tdawgmaster1729 you say that as if gamefreak cares about the game at all
1:35:27 The main reason might be that fighting moves are portrayed as being more skillful than normal moves. Snorlax throwing out a Mega Punch may be powerful, but it is much less skillful and perfected than, say, a Machamp using Dynamic Punch.
Noooooo stop defending GameFreak's choices!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@ImportedCheese Game Freak always knows what they're doing, they would never not make sense
@@ImportedCheese I always viewed the Fighting type as mons that use chi/ki to boost up there strength.
I gotta say, for future videos of this type, I think Filler should be at the bottom, as someone sort of mentioned in the VOD. Like, I don't think filler moves should be considered bad, but I feel like having it in the middle results in weird situations, like a move in Niche will be debated being 2 tiers higher, and just in general I feel like Filler doesn't conduce itself well to be tiered. I think it makes more sense as an Untiered or sorts where you put the moves that are used because there aren't better options at the time but are also generally pretty bad (especially considering we are taking competitive into account where filler moves never get used). At minimum I feel like switching Niche with Filler in position is a good idea.
We could try that for the next one!
Watched the livestream on and off. The 7hr stream was journey, but worth it for this 3hr premium edit! Can't wait for Gen 2! Gen 5 Outrage goes brrr!
Let's! 2-3 turns of damage!
Cheese - you have the best voice. I just put some of these videos on in the background while I'm working, there's something really calming and great about your delivery.
Eyyy thank you! The tier lists are definitely more for background noise than actual viewing, they are L O N G
Pay day can technically be a niche move. Specifically in colosseum you can use pay day + amulet coin in the deep colosseum (gets you like 30,000 a battle), but that doesn’t matter in comp
Also in Gen 1, Pay Day was the only unlimited means to generate money before the Elite 4, since no other trainers could be rematched, and there existed no replenishable item sources.
If you're playing a ROM hack where money is extremely difficult to earn and everything, including healing at the Pokemon Center, costs a lot of money and losing battles costs your Pokemons... Pay Day is actually God tier!
... Yes, that's extremely specific and not even official :c
I actually like that it's called "Sky Attack"; has that flavor of something powerful with an unassuming name, which I think is always kinda cool. You know, like how the planet-devastating magic in Final Fantasy VII is just plainly called "Meteor"? Just one simple, minimally descriptive word, nothing fancy? Leaves an impression.
I like godbird better
@@ImportedCheese I do suppose "Godbird" is significantly more... _shounen anime_ in flavor. xD
Should note that Bug is super affective against poison in gen 1 so Jolteon uses Pin missile to delete the Grass Types. In competitive it deletes Exeggutor which is very strong in Gen 1 so that's also a thing.
Poison is also super effective against bug in gen 1
There is exactly ONE niche for Mega Kick in competitive play; in GSC OU, on belly drum snorlax teams that pass it Agility, Snorlax will very very occasionally use Megakick for Double edge power without the recoil killing itself from half health and max attack. And that's an incredibly niche pick on a niche team style on a somewhat niche Snorlax set.
But you could just run Rest and keep that accuracy
I would like to say that while at first glance, Steel resisting Psychic doesn't make a lot of sense, you have to realize that it was originally done to nerf the Psychic type because it was WAY overpowered in Gen 1. It was only resisted by itself, and it was only weak to the worst type in the game at that point. And because it was accidentally immune to Ghost and super effective against poison, it could just obliterate Gengar. Steel was also meant to balance out the Normal type, which was also overpowered in Gen 1.
Also instead of the spoon type of way, you could see Steel in this case as like a tinfoil hat. The metal prevents the mind powers from doing as much damage. Steel is definitely overpowered though. I think that Steel should be weak to Water, since water causes oxidation and rust, and maybe make more types resistant to it? Steel is due for a nerf.
if steel gets a water weakness then water should get a poison weakness, water is also a pretty overpowered typing at the moment and poison is still one of the worst attacking types even with the buff it got from fairy.
@@Dudebox64 How is the Water type overpowered?
@@spectralwiitch7544 only weak to electric and grass, and grass isn't that important cause it's a meh attacking type, while being offensively powerful at the same time. Plus there's a lot of really good water pokemon out there since it's such a common type.
@@Dudebox64 what a stupid decision
@@spectralwiitch7544 bruh is that really a damn question they only have 2 damn weaknesses?? Not too mention Water has the biggest roster in the entire lore.. water has always been one of the most powerful types since gen 1
You mentioned how Gust went from normal/physical to flying/physical to flying/special but no mention for bite that was normal/physical then dark/special and then dark/physical
What’s even funnier is that literally every attacking Dark move from Gen 2 and 3 becomes physical in Gen 4. So why did Game Freak ever make Dark a special type to begin with 😂
no dentists in chat
@@Begeru Umbreon
@@BlueGamingRage yea that does make sense. And also they added Steel type at the same time, which was physical. So they were trying to find a balance between the amount of physical and special types.
I feel like the Niche tier should be above the Filler/Outclassed tier, not below. Niche means that you're using it because you actually have a strategy for it, it gives you a desirable effect you can't get from something else. You wouldn't replace Haze with Flamethrower if you wanted a way to get rid of opponent stat buffs. You would replace Ember though, because Ember is outclassed, and literally the only reason you might be using Ember over Flamethrower is because Flamethrower isn't available to you. So I would swap those 2 tiers around and maybe move a few moves that have a legitimate niche use like Dig and Bonemarang into Niche.
very thorough, and great commentary as always. the translated attack names are interesting to hear explained.
Thanks for watching! Let's! Localizing!
27:30 gen 1 conversion did become a new move later on: reflect-type. It makes you your opponent's type.
Lotta effort to make a new move that no one will use
@@ImportedCheese At least they discontinued Bide to make room for it.
gen 6 and 7 mega latias uses reflect type iirc, combined with recover and the fact most types resist themselves it makes it a incredible defensive move, though sadly no other uses i know of.
@@zander2758 In Gen 5 some extremely defensive Starmie would use it to lessen damage from Pursuit from scarf Tar/Scizor switching in.
Agility in gen 1 can also make your Dragonite really fast, and then it can use wrap until the opponent dies and can't move. Gen 1 only.
I think I mentioned that in the full livestream, but it got cut here
Aaaand this strat is now banned lol
The one time I actually bred a competitive wifi team, I used Z-Conversion Porygon-Z with Blizzard and Ninetales-Alola. It wasn't very good, but it was a lot of fun
I honestly love the Leech Life buff. It's a fantastic coverage move on Pokemon with enough bulk, defensive typing, or boosting moves to take a couple hits, particularly in single-player, where it'll save you a nice chunk of money or backtracking time on long routes. When I saw the new power in Gen 7, I did a quadruple-take, then looked it up on Bulbapedia.
I suspect that, when designing Gen I, they figured that damage dealt + healing increased your "net HP advantage" by the same amount as a move with 1.5 times its power, which is why draining moves are so weak (and, it's a fair reason to keep them relatively weak).
I think they can get away with the insane numbers/effect on buffed Leech Life because bug type uh...really sucks
I disagree with Glare no longer affecting Electric types because a snake should always be able to paralyze a mouse with fear.
Disable is sometimes competitively used on some pokemon, especially when paired up with Substitute. Most mons absolutely need a key move to function, and being deprived of it makes them useless, so they have to switch out and lose momentum. It can break stall by preventing recovery moves, or make sweepers unable to set up.
Sub/Disable gengar is the only one I know
53:01 I’m so glad you left this revelation in-it was worth every cent.
The first time I had to delete my channel
@@ImportedCheese You were able to recognize your mistake and learn from it. I’m willing to let that transgression slide.
Unfortunately, I’m not involved with the other ones, so that’s the extent of my authority.
The editing is better on this one than the last tier list, I think. Getting better.
I cut out more stuff, but the livestream itself was also longer so it's still...really long
Salazzle with disable is a menace in competitive mons. Substitute + disable is very niche but very effective especially on such a fast monster that can toxic anything it wants
Or you could just run Taunt instead
Another great and interesting video man, especially interesting hearing about translation differences and changes in recent generation I wasn't aware of (there's so many moves these days its hard to keep track. A few minor comments:
- Surely metronome should at worst be at the top of useless as chances are you're going to be pulling out a move better than the rest of the moves in tha ttier
- I'm a bit confused about why you've put solar beam so much higher than sky attack, I know solar beam has sun synergy but you explained why this is often pretty niche and sky attack has higher crit rate, flinching and a better typing
- Not really expecting this to affect the tiering of many/any moves as its only a couple of spin offs but probably worth mentioning that as you mention collosseum and XD during Surf, in that game a lot of the usability of these moves is switched on its head, especially non-damaging moves (light screen/reflect, status moves) as often the best strategy is to null the threat of one of your opponents' mon and focus on the other
- Don't know if this was mentioned by the chat during the stream but in Spanish "Slam" is translated as "Portazo" which specifically means slamming a door
- In UK English it is vice
Finally fully watched it (At 2× speed)! I quite agree with your ranking. Only things that could be changed according to me are that Confuse Ray and Hyper Beam are better while Sweet Kiss, Hypnosis, and Sing are worse.
Justice for hyper beam
@@ImportedCheese and yeah sludge and poison sting must interchange their places
Growl in gen I is one of the best moves. It allows you to get an instant level 100 pokemon. When you use the Mew glitch, you normally find the pokemon at level 7. For any change to the attack stat during the previous fight, the level of the pokemon changes, so if you use 6 growls on the slowpoke, you encounter Mew at lvl 1 and then you can take it straight to 100. For me this justifies Growl having its own tier above Meta-Defining.
Ironclad logic...and steel is a good type!
You're forgetting the best aspect of Bonemerang: you can teach Earthquake to someone else instead lol
Really really liking this edit btw. Really well done!
Lmaooo Bonemerang to staple for letting someone else start S H A K I N
34:15 Disable is actually a lot more useful than you'd think , its used by mons which have very few counters like calyrex shadow disabling knock off from yveltal after it gets a sub hence not being contered , some mons would run disable to counter choiced mons they would otherwise die to and in doubles disable is used sometimes so stop mons like mega mence , xerneas , talonflame[gen 6 stuff] lunala and among some other things which I think gives it a solid niche
a solid but small niche*
Back in gen 1, disable was random, not the last move and also only 55% accurate
mega slowbro used amnesia + iron defense, since it couldnt get critted, it was basically invincible
I'm Italian, and I always thought the "counter" that counts things made sense, since counter gives double damage, it's like the pokémon counts the damage it's taking to then give back the double.
I'm German and as a child I always thought, the German translation of pound (as the unit of weight) made sense.
@@naphackDT same here, they made the same mistake in Italian lol
It's not imported cheese without an immediate Onix joke. Totally approve
Don't tell everyone that Onix doesn't learn constrict
Sorry, Cheese.
Watching the rest of the non edited version, as I enjoy more when things are unaltered and raw.
.
.
Was that a vine boom sound effect?? I have to watch both versions now!
Also, its funny how both videos have more differences than Pokémon versions lol.
Lmaooo more effort than GameFreak confirmed
Ah yes, I've been waiting for this. Glad to see you were able to get it down to a fairly reasonable 3 hours.
I uh..actually think 3 hours is unironically kinda reasonable lol
@@ImportedCheese compared to the almost 7 hours it originally was this is ABSOLUTELY reasonable
@@ImportedCheese I suppose I may have come off as sarcastic, but I was being genuine. There's a ton of moves and you're looking at them on a pretty broad scale.
Cutting a 7 hour stream down to 3 hours is a major feat. And I've only watched about 26 minutes so far, but the editing is done quite well.
@@TheWrathAbove Thank you!! I hope you enjoy!
Acid armour and agility are also used in Body Press and/or Stored Power sets respectively.
Hidden techniques
Moves like Acid/Acid Spray remind me of Yu-Gi-Oh retrains. Like, they print a card years after an old card that invalidates said old card.
As you said:
40 BP + 10% SpD drop -1
into
40 BP + 100% SpD drop -2.
Yep, Acid Spray is the Meteor Black Comet Dragon of the Pokémon world.
Pokemon power creep?!
About Explosion/Self-Destruct, fainting completely ended the turnin older generations, so if your opponent survives the move and would go second, it doesn't let them move until the next turn. What this essentially means is that they can't set up Spikes if you boom
Also can't get secondary effect stat boosts if the opponent dies!
54:45 can't believe you missed the move cut, that's a meta defying broken move, trees are just deleted when using it
Grass is bad tho, I'm not impressed
@@ImportedCheese so true
31:47 Whitney: are you sure about that?
R O L L I N G
Low Kick is relatively important in Gen 1. Its users really don't like the recoil of submission
the base power tho...
@@ImportedCheese Your other option is Submission at base 85 and you really hate its recoil. Both have merits
28:00 this move might be the reason why the ability Adaptability is named like this, because of Porygon Z
I think we mention that when we talk about Adaptability in the gen 4 abilities video!
@@ImportedCheese worthy of a rewatch to check!
Fly should be meta defining, or at least higher in staples, for its out-of-battle usage. You’ll pretty much always have a flier in a playthrough for that reason.
I didn't consider that at all, I don't think it counts
I died at the captain falcon part where it goes ooh! ooh! ooowooooh! Ty for these great videos
Captain Falcon sound clips are so versatile!!
god so many moves were put in the game to just be mostly to completely totally useless, mostly to put on enemy npc teams so they are easier to beat.
I think I came to this realization in the Gen 4 moves list
Unfun fact: In the german translations, "razor wind" is named "Klingensturm (blade storm) which makes it a waste of an even cooler name
at least Bladestorm is cool in warcraft
The nice thing about haze is that it does good on stall mons that don’t get clear smog.
Stall mons get bodied when someone starts spamming swords dance or nasty plot. So haze lets you stall and not get swept.
You can also Haze steel types!
i don't quite underdtand why niche is below outclassed. niche are sometimes used due to having niche usage, filler should never be used due to better options. still, loved the video!
Technician single-handedly making filler moves somewhat usable 🤯
I remembered reading that having Mist up prevented your stats from being reset by Haze (at the time I was really into Balanced Hackmons on Showdown, where prankster haze is very common), so I tried using it. It was a lie, and I immediately got rid it after the battle where I tried it
Mist stay losing
Weird italian translations for gen 1 moves don't stop at Counter, so many are weird and a bunch of them are straight up wrong. Here's some of them off the top of my mind:
- tackle > azione (name for "a tackle" in football)
- take down > riduttore (literally something that "reduces")
- double edge = sdoppiatore (literally sometimes that "doubles... sometimes else?")
- pound > libbra (translation for "pound" as in the measurement unit) (later fixed in gen3)
- glare > bagliore (as in glaring, dazzling) (later fixed)
I heard about the pound one
Amnesia can be used with "crit me not" sweepers in single battles due to crit nerfs
I hate that they localized lightning to thunder because thunder is just the sound of a lightning strike.
you may or may not love this but i named my personal haunter billyxmays
HI BILLY MAYS HERE
10:06
Amnesia lets my boy Registeel tank Overheats behind a Sub on Gen 4 Battle Tower TrickScarf teams
it’s been a while by now but being part of this livestream was really fun ehe. kale chips is proud
I'm glad you enjoyed! Have you been able to follow the new livestreams on the alternate FRESH channel?
@@ImportedCheese i havent D: !! ty for lmk, ive been outta the loop lol
For Hyper beam and Hyper Beam's variants:
-Hyper beam is meant to be severely offensive, no defense. I'm not quite sure what it should do, but it needs to be something that heavily reduces defensive options when used.
-Hyper Beam like attacks on the other hand, are pretty simple: The attack will cost you your next turn, unless you strike an opponent's weakness. The attack will not connect and you lose a turn if it is resisted.
Hyper beam should go back to not needing to recharge if it knocks out the opponent
Cool they also turned Leech Life from a mosquito bite to a vampire bite in both appearance and power
Confusion; while not that good on its own, CAN be comboed well with Paralysis with either Static, Thunder Wave, or Body Slam. Sure it’s essentially waisting 2 turns to ensure that the opponent can’t do anything for a few turns, but not only is it very reliable that they can’t do anything, they also be slower meaning that KOs become MUCH easier. You could even use it to set up with boosting moves like Dragon Dance and co. In some games it’s even easy to find: in B2W2 you can early on get Ampharos which has both Confuse Ray and Thunder Wave to directly inflict Para-Fusion, but it also has several indirect ways of doing it to like Static, Signal Beam, and a good chunk of its electric attacks. Ampharos if you’re lucky enough can inflict both in the same turn and is probably the best use of Para-Fusion in game.
New nerfed confusion tho
In gen 5 what people usually did, and I think that was even more broken with Mega Gengar in Smogon formats, is using Substitute + Disable to get rid of key moves that can stop your Pokemon's set up. I can't see it in mostly useless. It was used most often with Gengar back when it had levitate because despite how frail it was it was almost immun to everything. And only a handful of moves could hurt him making it a great Disable user
I've tried it before on Gengar but it's like...a hyper gimmick lol
Coming from finishing the stream to that intro was perfection
PREMIUM edits only! :SmolOnix:
i was here for the beginning of the stream, but had to leave fairly quickly since i was busy doing chores, but im here for the supercut
It took like...two days to edit. It's PREMIUM!
God damn it took me a while but managed to see it all. What a blast! Rock blast? Rock? Oh oh.... ONIIIXXXX
Rock blast is good with skill link!!!
my favorite gen 1 move jank is counter being able to counter damage taken on the previous turn if the opponent switches out the turn you use it. this includes damage taken by a different pokemon that fainted the previous turn. sometimes gengar runs counter because of this despite not being able to take damage from normal and fighting moves.
wonderfully programed game
i am playing catch up my dude, i love these videos, great background video when grinding in games.
Thank you! Hope to see you in the upcoming Gen 4 Moves PREMIUM!
Heard him say "recently" when talking about pin missle getting buffed with heracross skill link and remembered that X and Y with Megas came out 10 years ago. My back hurts from hearing this
Their is a fun glitch in red/blue/yellow/green, if you give your gengar in gen one, and they knock out your Pokémon and bring gengar out and use counter, it does damage equal to what happen to your last Pokémon.
It’s just not gengar, it’s anything that’s faster than the opponent
Toxic/Leech Seed was significant in my defeat of Lance because his mons would spam Agility against my three weak-to-Psychic Pokémon while they got healed. In fact, Razor Leaf did next to nothing against his dragons, allowing him to repeatedly potion while I lost pp, while the combo took a mon out in a few turns.
For the record, those three mons were Machamp, Gengar, and Venusaur. Machamp was necessary to beat Lorelei, Venusaur to beat Lance (and the Champion, due to…), and Gengar absolutely carried with its 1 pp up Thunder (HUGE weakness among the Elite Four), Psychic (obviously), Seismic Toss (for attrition), and Mega Drain, which saw niche use but was ultimately influential in OHKOing Bruno’s Onixes and the Champion’s Rhydon AND healing him up to near full.
I talk about the battle with Lance in the GrASS video!
Psywave actually had a use in competitive. It was an alternative Seismic Toss for Chanseys who wanted to hit Gengars thinking they could just scare it away.
... It came at the cost of requiring to use the hidden ability Healer which is 100% useless, and of course unstable damage. Some people still found it to be an acceptable trade anyway.
That's uh...uh....something
@@ImportedCheeseOh it can also desync games on cartridge and force a draw.
Level 3 Jigglypuff I think? Since that is the lowest level mon you can catch that has psywave, there is a chance for it to do one damage for one player's POV and 0 for the other, which leads to the match being unplayable. It's something to do with the game and gow selecting moves works... So, kinda useless and it's patched out on PS but hypothetically you could do that to come back from losing a round 2 in a best of 3 by forcing a draw.
PlagueVonKarma made a video on it that explains it better
i love gen 1
38:02 double kick is common on jolteon in gen 1 because it prevents chansey from walling it.
what about PIN MISSILE :CynthiChad:
@@ImportedCheese pin missile is really nice too for exeggutor and alakazam but thunderwave kinda handles alakazam anyway and i usually send jolteon in against eggy just to eat a sleep powder anyway. ive tried running both double kick and pin missile but giving up rest is a tough choice for so much coverage i don't end up using 90% of the time.
I said that fly is the SECOND best hm move beside surf. But also black/white 2 tier list when?
Uh probably not for a while
Love the Octopath background music
Surely it will be in other videos
You have a great radio voice bro. Keep going
Thank you!
1:47:23 This aged well, with Legends Z-A announced a little while back.
Of course!! Psychic was great in Gen 1!
For anyone wondering, Solar Beam is the 69th best move according to this list, so is it really as bad as Cheese says?
Ya got me, time to delete my channel again
"I think [Dragon Rage] is banned in Little Cup"
that one Trainer in Stadium's Little Cup: I'll pretend I did not hear that.
Stadium and cheating?! I don(t believe it!
@@ImportedCheese Upon further research, I realized I am an idiot and it was Pika Cup, where some Trainers carry Dragon Rage.
A cup where things are Lv. 15-20, so even a perfect Chansey dies to 4 of these, and many things are 2 shot by it.
Since the live video is now unlisted and so is my other comment - Acid and Sludge deserve better! Poison is a bad type, but there are Pokemon that rely on these moves through their level 10s-20s and can actually be competent. I'm talking Tentacool, Bellsprout, Gulpin - especially Gulpin.
Move Acid and Sludge up to Filler tier with Bubblebeam! #justiceForAcid
...Maybe. 30% chance to reduce my defense / change my mind
No Recharge Hyper Beam could never be in another game ever, especially with 200 Base Power. It would be completely abused by Aerilate (and the other types variants) Pokémon. Imagine Alolan Golem's Explosion, but instead of being a last resort it is it's main attacking option.
I remember that, in Almost Any Ability, Noivern was banned because of Aerilate Boomburst. Imagine that, but with double the strength and in a metagame where Pokémon are actually balanced. No thanks
I think it would be fine at 150 bp and no recharge on KO, let's high risk high reward?!
26:39 you legit made me cry laughing🤣🤣 your exemples were on point
Constrict's main use is being mocked in tier lists
I can actually think of a time when Focus Energy is good in Gen 1, as niche as it may be! It's something you'd mostly see in challenge playthroughs like Nuzlockes or one-mon runs, but Gen 1's crit mechanics can actually make your moves weaker if your stats have been boosted, since they ignore both positive and negative stat alterations. If you were to set up with a Pokémon (particularly a fast one since they have higher crit rates) to where they're dealing more than twice the damage they would without boosts, using Focus Energy might actually be the play, since if you can prevent crits, you can prevent yourself from losing that extra damage! Very much a niche situation, but one worth considering when it comes to weird Gen 1 mechanics :p
Gotta use a moveslot tho
But very creative!
@@ImportedCheese Lmao yeah, that's the biggest thing with that strat. Good for Pokémon who have high speed and not a lot of moves to use! Less so for uh, most other things :p Fun little niche there for challenge runs though, if you can figure out a place to slot it in! I follow some folks who do solo runs, trying to get the best time on various Pokémon at the lowest levels and least number of resets they can, and considering how sometimes their runs get trashed by goodbad crit rolls after they've set up with either normal Attack/Special boosts of the badge boost glitch, using Focus Energy to negate some of the rng there immediately came to mind, especially for Pokémon that only really need one or two moves per battle, since a lot of the time you can change up their movesets between, say, the Elite Four members once you've taken out a given trainer and no longer need a particular move. Not something you'd wanna use in a regular playthrough my any means, but it's got potential in the right context!
I still think being able to take out Psychic and Dark types using one move is good, but maybe that's just because both Johto and Unova E4 teams use those types extensively.
I basically treat this like a work podcast
God tier content
“Please don’t fall asleep on my streams” I was seconds away from passing out when I heard that whoops
No snorlaxes allowed
Oh my god, a Tellius chad? Instant sub.
I feel like you should have a tier between staple and filler. like the..... "reliable" tier. Moves you wouldn't like as your primary STAB move, but coverage or a decent fallback if another pokemon just needed that Quake, Flamethrower, Icebeam etc TM more
I don't mean to get too technical but I feel like the bar in Pokemon for that kinda thing is around 60 base power because of the way Stab and attack modifiers are calculated so if your attacking off Stab,or a weakness you are still hitting around that nice gold standard 100 base damage reliably. and 60 is about the damage you want because if you go lower than you start running into "Hey STAB will get more damage than a x2 weakness" more often
This is usually the bar for how tolerable a move is to take into the end game too. Like I would not be thrilled with an end game powder snow, but id basically be ok with an end game Aurora Beam.
BUT I'm overthinking it because its Pokemon, you can just press A to win usually
Maybe, the tiers certainly are subject to change, but I think "filler/outclassed" is enough of a catch-all, especially since no generation introduced as many moves as Gen 1
One note on Disable is Prankster Disable would definitely be niche. Kind of like Prankster Encore which I know Liepard likes to abuse.
That seems so much worse than Prankster Encore...they can just switch moves
Acid armor is good with body press
1:43:05 Somebody probably already commented this but in Gen 1, both Night Shade and Seismic Toss ignore the respective damage immunities! There are still niche differences between them like, seismic toss can be hit by counter but has more pp iirc?
Ofc that only matters in Gen 1, but Gen 1 competitive is the only one that matters, right? (i'm joking but also not i love gen 1)
Earl taught me in Stadium 2 about the immunities
Pay day belongs in a tier below constrict simply called "I forgor"
There's like...three moves there
People always go nuts for Gen 3 Surf until they realize the mechanics are different for G3 doubles, namely that spread moves that don't hit your ally have their power cut in half instead of 75% (and those that do hit them like EQ stay at 100% power). I honestly think that system should've stayed in place, or at least the 100% power to ally included moves, because it just made certain moves (like surf) objectively worse for no reason even if it did make those 100% power moves very powerful through team composition/synergy. This mechanic in gen 3 also makes Waterfall somewhat decent even without the PSS and flinch chance just for being a solid non-spread water move dealing 80 power instead of 47.5 to a specific target (most of the time what you'd want which is why Surf is so underwhelming, even in story mode).
Also pre-fairy Togekiss with Tri Attack is pretty cool (Togetic from XD:GoD gets it). Solid damage + 60% status lottery is always a good time.
M U D D Y W A T E R finally viable?!
You kinda look like Sean Schemmel so the Focus Enrrgy bit was very fitting
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
In my playthrough of the Rutile Ruby / Star Sapphire hack of ORAS, I really grew to love Galvantula - and Galvantula is what made me finally appreciate Thunder. Set up dem sticky icky spidery webs, then THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER xD
Sadly not 100% accurate even with Compoundeyes
@@ImportedCheese Yeeeah, but what, 97.something? Good enough for me!
@@AniGaAG it’s 91
Pin missile was the only way for jolteon to deal with exeggcutor in gen 1, reason enough for it to be on its set.
Well...what else are you gonna run right
"All of these multi-hit moves are just RNG fiestas" -- that was poetic
The only way to beat RNG is with Skill! Skill Link, that is!
Sad I missed this one. Sweet video
THE PREMIUM is here for you!
I'd like to see a Gen 1 only version of this
hyper beam would be a lot better....
1:18:04 After finding Ice Beam, I'll never use another Ice Beam again
But it's so good!!
2:14:18 Thanks for not cutting that out lol
Pay2Win stream
"Low Kick does not care about your weight at all"
Well, that's very considerate of Low Kick. Thank you, Low Kick.
Modern low kick not as considerate
@@ImportedCheese Maybe it went through some rough experiences.
2:42:55
I guess you don't play summoner after they reworked the dots out of it. Bard is pretty much the only real DoT job left
I haven't played since they made Summoners actually summon
if bad HM moves didn't require move deleter to remove them in earlier gens do you think they'd be slightly better or nah?
They'd still be bad HM moves
@@ImportedCheese big fair
In gen 1 pvp, bind and wrap have a bonus effect called "lose whatever few friends you have"
Hyperbeam was pretty decent on Slaking in gen 3 at least. Shouldn't change it's ranking, but you don't get the move specific downside... since you have the Slaking debuff 😹 But only gen 3, anything after absolutely not. But you brought it up in your video so, yeah. I dunno, I would never use it anyway. I think Slaking is cool but I have used it once and it is tedious.
Slaking has been a disaster for casual strategies
@@ImportedCheese maybe I should make a long comment using random made up math to start an argument to defend Slaking for no reason. Then you can make video called "King" as a sequel to "Dun"