The World's Only Dogleg Manual Wagon!? - The Carmudgeon Show w Jason Cammisa & Derek Hyphen - Ep 99
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- In this episode of the Curmudgeon Show, Derek Tam-Scott buys the world's only factory dogleg manual-transmission station wagon!
This episode is all about the dogleg: the transmission layout that automatically makes any car cool.
The discussion starts with the simplest question: What is a dogleg? Why does it exist - and why did it come about in the first place?
The reason is, of course, racing - where the gears of the H pattern are used all the time, but first gear is only used once (to get moving.)
The discussion then continues with every car ever produced with a dogleg manual - 3-speeds, 5-speeds, and 7-speeds.
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The Curmudgeon Show is part of the Hagerty Podcast Network
This episode starts by Derek saying “I have the clap” and Jason not catching it. The universe is up to something
I'm so used to him bragging about venereal disease that I don't even notice it anymore.
@@JasonCammisa I’d brag too
@@Petrol_fix threw me off too lol
Maybe Jason already has the clap?
@@JasonCammisa 😆
If we don’t get the Piechisode next week WE RIOT
And it better be at least 100 hours long!
I'm with you boys! Piechisode next week or bust!
We will ruin those idiots lives
They'll probably be like Carmugeon is cancelled so we starting a new show.
Did you riot?
Now it's time for the Piech episode 👏👏
I am unironically hyped
A proper way to celebrate the 100th ep
so sad to be so obsessed.
PIECHISODE*
@@eugenux it's not an obsession, I'm not one who's asking for it everytime. I just remember an old episode in which it was said that they'll do it for the 100th episode. I don't mind them sharing everything he has done, i just want them to conversate about him and what a legend he was in the automotive industry. It would be a really interesting episode
Derek saying “I’ve got the clap” and then “I’m entering my plutocratic era” just made my day within the first minute and a half of this podcast! Too funny 😂
Here's a dog leg BMW that wasn't mentioned: The E23 745i South Africa with the M88 had the dog leg manual transmission as an option!
Also the BMW 333i, E30, I think
ooo man I love that that thing exists
Everytime you mentioned dogleg I never understood why it was called that. Always meant to research the history, but now I don't need to. The use in racing and resulting less crossplane movement makes total sense.
Thanks Tam "Hyphen" Scott!
i think that the gear selector linkage is shaped like a dogs leg
DT-S: "I associate the word luxury with w*nker"
Also DT-S: "I want SOFT CLOSE DOORS"
😁😘
OMFG that cliffhanger about the Piechisode. I want it so badly. Not only because it sounds like a lot of interesting stuff but mostly because you've been teasing us about it litterally forever !! :D
"Automatic transmission take power and.... deliver disappointment" - Nice. Spat all over my keyboard !
Congrats on getting a lift for the warehouse! A lift is really a big step for turning those projects that are daydreams into actual wrenching
I am hereby petitioning that the Piech episode be longer than 1 hour
I'm hereby petitioning that the Piechpisode be at least 2 hours long.
they can split it into two or more episodes, like a Piech series 😄
The hype for episode 100 is real!
1:20 I am with Derek, the w140 was a dream of mine and bought a 1996 S320 Lang in 2019 and still love it to this day
OMFG THAT GOEDEMORGEN WAS SO GOOD, would almost think you were Dutch
Dank je wel!
Always the highlight of Mondays! I will drown in sorrow if we don't get a Piechisode next week after all the talk about it though...
I do that same thing with the blips in order to go easy on my clutch (which seems to be on its way out). Works great!
This is not the distraction I need during finals week but I have no self control so imma enjoy this episode.
Olds did indeed offer a dogleg 5-speed on Cutlass sedans and coupes for a couple years, but the THM350 auto was standard on wagons. Datsun probably built more dogleg 5-speed wagons than anyone else.
One of my professors in college had a biturbo. When I found out, I asked him if it worked and he said yes. I was shocked but then he told me it had an sr20 in it to make it more reliable hahaha
My 1976 Pontiac Sunbird (which I race in the 24 hours of lemons with Kyle Kinard) has a 5-speed dogleg. I think they made a 2-door wagon version. That's a VERY unlikely dogleg. Most of the M/T cars came with a 4-speed manual, but there was a 5-speed option for V6 cars, a T-50 (there are multiple T50 trans, but this is the one that's in old British roadsters, not Toyotas) sent power to the rear, but I don't think it could handle the torque of the V8 cars even though it was 1976 and the poor engines were choking on emissions equipment.
The V6 had enough torque to kill the transmission as well mind you; despite being totally gutless. It wasn't a great trans. But it DID have a dogleg first gear!!
I sincerely hope the next episode is about Piech, followed by more Piech content by both Dereck and Jason on their respective UA-cam channels.
My Monday just got better 🙌🏽
Just want to mention that the Bronco sorta has a 7 speed dog leg with it's crawl gear
That popped into my head too! I think it might have a lockout, but it definitely deserves an honorable mention as the newest weirdest manual available.
The Citroen CX and GS/A were available in wagon form with the C-matic semi-manual with a dogleg pattern.
Yay! Another episode! This one on time, congrats
Something to note, the majority of vacuum brake boosters have a check valve that when they go bad, they exhibit the same issues as either a bad booster or a bad master cylinder. Some are serviceable, some are only available with a "new" brake booster (most are remanufactured these days). When the check valve goes bad, in some cases it can lead to oil being dumped in the diaphragm of the booster, which destroys it internally. The reason this happens is because most vacuum brake booster have a vacuum line hooked up to the rest of the vacuum lines, along with the crankcase breather hose, which is hooked to the PCV valve mounted on top of the valve cover to help vent the crankcase (Not every vehicle have this). When there's an anormal amount of gasses circulating in these line, it can sometimes cause oil to end in the vacuum lines, which can end in either in your air box or in your vacuum brake booster. This is why it's always recommended to change your PCV valve (If your vehicle has a serviceable PCV valve) during spark plugs replacement. The more you know.
On the subject of dogleg transmissions, would you count the manual option for the new Ford Bronco? While it’s technically a 6speed with a “crawl gear” the layout is technically a dogleg just not with racing in mind.
Yeah that's true. I'd call it a dogleg!
Why not do the Piech episodes in parts to make it easier on you guys time wise.
I love the Milwaukee mechanic stuff. The 12v die grinder, their ratchets, and any of their impacts have totally replaced my pneumatic equivalents. I wanna see some sort of air hammer replacement. I love my Snap On stuff but when it comes to the power tools it doesn’t really make senses when the Milwaukee stuff is so good.
914s also had the 901
Piechisode or bust! Please 90+ min episode.
I can only make a guess, but I think the shift pattern of the 2cv is basically what someone gets when they take the layout of a 3 speed gearbox's shifter (as said in this episode, 3 speed manuals often had a dogleg pattern), and they add a 4th gear to it without rethinking the whole thing.
Strangely enough, you could get a brand new Ford F150 with a three speed manual column shift into the '80s. I'm pretty sure my college roommate's f150 was a 1980 model with three on the tree and a 300 cubic inch straight six. When he let me drive it for the first time, I was like "WTF? Is this 1955?".
Who needs gears when you've got all that displacement. Just chuck it in third and go!
Always loved watching Derek's BTS videos because you see clearly see how he does that open palm shift into every gear. It's so slick.
I taught my self to drive manual the Derek way, because I never got the hang of the blip method. Didn't help that when I was learning, I always kept my foot on the brake until I began engaging the clutch.
Vintage Mercs?! No way.
Hyphen @0:57 "I got the clap". Oh boy.
Great idea for an episode: Dictator cars!
So just cars Derek likes? He’s a Dic, after all
8:46 boosters have a chamber where a diaphragm bisects it right down the middle. That diaphragm is connected to the brake pedal. The booster takes vacuum from the engine intake and that vacuum applies a force to the diaphragm. That force is what provides the braking power. Without it, the brake pedal will be extremely stiff. As for automatic transmissions, the torque converter is where all the magic happens. Think of it like a standard clutch that just happens to make a connection when the revs climb. Instead of synchros and shift forks and dogs, the gears are engaged with clutch packs that receive fluid pressure through solenoids, controlled by a module. The fluid pressure is generated via a pump connected to the torque converter at 1:1 engine speed at all times. That’s why flat towing an automatic car is tricky because if the engine isn’t running, you have no fluid movement, which can cause damage to the transmission. They make kits for this that can cycle fluid when the engine is off.
It immediately reminds me of the Top Gear episode where James May drove the 190E Cosworth. Even the ADAC guy got the gearbox wrong. 😂
Great episode as always and I look forward to episode 100
I recall my friend’s dodge aspen wagon with a floor shift, but do not remember the pattern - likely not similar, but a great ride AND it had faux wood siding
Yay....back on schedule....TFG
Back to Mondays !
😎 especially enjoyed the part about shifting at the end. My first car was a 4 speed W123 300D wagon (without turbo so 88hp) and shifting it required some force.
But mostly the left-right movement of the gear lever was what needed force. It was already old and heavily used when i got it. At one point, my dad organized and sponsored the maintenance let it have a change of the transmission fluid (a surprising number of people i know, think that's not a thing with manual gearboxes) and it was like night and day. Shifting suddenly was so easy you could do it with 1 finger on top of the lever (except for revers of course... you can't lift the lever this way😉)
And the 3 finger shifting is something i still do most of the time. Although sometimes, mostly when moving the lever forward, i use "no finger" but just the palm of the hand. That's a result of my lorry/truck in driving school. (driving school is mandatory for a drivers license where i live, and i wanted to get every license i can afford so after saving all the money i could for 18 years, i got the license for motorcycles, cars, big trucks, tractors, and "self driving work vehicles" which means things like heavy loaders excavators... Only things i couldn't get were the heavy trailers and busses. I didn't have the money for the heavy trailers and busses you could only get after being a professional driver for 5 years and being 26 years of age back then. Now it's different.)
The truck had a 8 speed double H pattern gearbox with "split". Meaning you hand 1-4 in an H pattern on the left, then an "air cushion" and 5-8 on another H pattern. And a little dingus on the front of the gear lever which you could flip into 2 settings with L an H (low and high). This was to "fine adjust" the rpms you were going to always stay in the best band.
Revers was unsynchronized, all other gears were synchronized and the split was a preselect. So you could flip the switch and whenever you wanted to do this shift you only pressed the clutch and released it again. Voila.
But the "air cushion" is the reason for my palm shifting. If you wold wrestle the gearlever like the people you described, you wouldn't get it into the gear you wanted.
So from 4th to 5th people would end up in 8th (really bad if your truck is loaded fully.) Or from 5th to 4th you would end up in 2nd.
The best way was either "pushing it out of 4th, giving it a slap to the right (to break through the air cushion) and then give it a push forward. So 3 seperate movements, which could be made pretty fast and effectively. (the "safe way") Or by using your palm and getting a feel you could shift "normally". But you had to be sensitive and not grip hard and that in my case meant my usual 3 fingers for rearward movements and gently with the palm for forward.
To explain the "air cushion": i have no clue how that thing is really called, but imagine that you feel resistance when you want to move the gearlever to the side in neutral and after overcomming the reistance with a little force you hear a "pffft" from air escaping a valve and you are now on the other side of the resistance.
I unironically love driving old Mercedes (non turbo) diesels with a 4-speed. They are slow enough that you can go 10/10ths on public roads without breaking the speed limit. Yes, it would be fun to go faster, but going absolutely as fast as you possibly can is always fun even if it's slow.
If there is no Episode 100 Piech Special, I am the button for swearing at Discount Sandler and Hyphen.
Thank you for offering your services 🫡
Having taught a few people to drive my manual car (BMW E90), I mostly agree with DTS. Keeping the revs low keeps students from cheating footwork nuance with revs. My car, however, is the most smooth when engaging 1st from a stop at a slightly higher range (1200rpm or so). It really comes down the learning the engine/transmission interplay, which is going to be different for every car.
Piech episode 100! make it a 2 or three episode edition. Give us 3 hours on him and enjoy a well deserved vacation for a couple weeks, deal?
Agree with DTS, roll car in manual as close to idle as possible in first gear. Just in case I get the opportunity to drive a CGT, I don't blow the CF clutch. Also max prolong the clutch.
Fuck!
You came to Portugal and I trust there are a bunch of people here that would like to arrange a meeting!!
Next time feel free to do it!
Cut a slit down the hockey puck and the pinch weld goes through the puck and then you can jack the car up.
Today I learned I drive like an old man like Jason with the throttle blimp
Great podcast episode 👍🏻 I own a German wagon with a manual transmission, but it is not with a dogleg
I was thinking of you guys this morning as I drove on Ferdinand Piech Way, during a visit to the VW factory complex in Chattanooga, Tennessee 🚗
Dog leg is really about lining up 2nd and 3rd for quicker shifting
One more till the piechisode!!!!
Ahhhh, keep the E65 hate rolling😂. I drove one recently and thought it was genuinely good to drive in almost all conditions. The steering is old BMW good, with proper weighting and feedback. Very rare to find one with a non-smoking N62, but that’s because the previous owners were doing 10-20k mile oil change intervals. I know 2 German guys that put over 200k miles on their N62s, and never butchered the valve stem seals because they did proper oil change intervals (5-7k miles).
Here’s some other great things about N62. It doesn’t have the chain guide issues of M62TU, and it doesn’t have the turbochargers, direct injection, HPFP, chain guides, and rod bearing issues of early N63 in F01. Plus, oil dipstick and mechanical water pump on N62, which those are gone on the N63.
Keep the hate coming, because that’s how they’ll stay super cheap😂
Anyway, great episode! E65/E66 is my guilty pleasure because of how cheap they are and how great of a value it is :)
I admire your courage. Truly, I do.
Anytime recently that I hear of brakes mysteriously sticking on, I suspect the brake fluid first. Anecdotally, it seems that the DOT4 stuff especially expands more than it should, and once you drive for a short distance, heating up the brakes & fluid , it adds its' own pressure to the system. You can compensate by adjusting the booster to master cylinder rod or, if unadjustable, add a VERY thin shim between them. The tell-tale is that if your (especially rear) brakes are binding up and you crack open any brake bleeder screw and they unlock, I would suspect the fluid & its' properties. So if you recently changed/flushed/topped up brake fluid and this happens, it could be the problem.
Very late comment, but the early Volvo 265 with the prv engine was offered with a dogleg 5 speed non overdrive getrag transmission.
There is another dogleg manual wagon. Sort of. The VW Vanagon is legally considered a wagon. The Vanagon was available with a dogleg 5 speed in Europe. My dad has a 1986 VW Vanagon "Weekender Edition" (a Westfalia without the kitchen) with a 2.5 litre Subaru motor and a European dogleg 5-speed with an LSD . Which if nothing else has, to be the dogleg 5 speed with the longest shift linkage. 😅
Food poisoning sucks so fucking much. I once ate some bad pizza in NYC and I was out of commission for like 15 days. Also: NEVER get caught speeding in Switzerland... the cost of the ticket will make you wish you had food poisoning instead.
Yes to three fingers👏
Datsun 210 wagon also had a dogleg transmission.
the irony of JC being an advocate for EVs and then saying, "These battery ecosystems are dangerous" 😂 😂 😂
@34:52 : IIRC Chrysler kept the 3 speed auto in the Wrangler into the late 90s/early 2000s.
Yes indeed. My 2002 Wrangler is a 3 spd auto.
I think the 4runner still has a 5 speed auto, maybe the last one?
Can confirm. I own a 2017. The 5th generation 4runner can be bought brand new with a 5 speed auto.
Shift patterns between my fun cars is always interesting. I'd been driving my mr2 spyder for a while and swapped back to my e85 z4 with the 5 speed and was trying to go to 4th gear when attempting to reverse after getting so used to the very tight H pattern and all the way right and down reverse in the mr2. Going between my nd1 and the mr2, I'm also always paranoid that one day I'll try to money shift the mr2 into reverse when trying to go for the non-existent 6th gear in the mr2.
Ugh. My track car has a dogleg and every street car i've ever owned has had a normal 5 or 6-speed manual. It confuses me EVERY TIME i get in the track car. Just gotta plow through the adjustment period each time I get in it.
I share this fear, dailying a 6spd 996 and getting into my 5spd Alfa spider on the weekends…Yeesh that’d be rough.
@@felixl.l.2060 Do you ever accidentally take off in 2nd gear or do you usually catch yourself before you get that far?
@@beatmasterbiggs Glad I'm not the only crazy with rotating out cars and this fear/paranoia. And I bet the Alfa is like the mr2 in the fact that it is revving higher at highway speeds and there is a subconscious want to get the revs lower with that very expensive 6th gear.
@@johnct2012 For me, it's not about taking off in the wrong gear, it's more just grabbing for the shifter and coming up with air. I'll be on the track thinking "Last time i shifted it was a 3-4 shift, so i'm in 4th...and 4th gear should be...here!" then i grab where 4th gear would be on my street car.
Ford used a Top-Loader 3 speed well into the 70's. My 66 Mustang had a dog leg 3 speed top loader.
The early 924 in the first few years had a 4 speed I owned one of those I believe after 1980 they went to all five speed
Another fun and informative episode. Appreciate that you keep doing them. I'd link to my sources for fact-checking, but not of those comments get approved. Does anyone else have this problem?
Lamborghini used parts from others, the Miura cogs/syncros are same as Porsche, but laid the same as the front engined V12 as it is a road car. As is the Countach, the brakes, rotors and pads are the same as Porsche/BMW of the time. Like Fiat, Alfa parts sourcing this also allows you to avoid scene tax.
Not really a dogleg but my grandpa's tractor has a vertically mirrored 4-speed pattern:
2 4 R
|---|--'
1 3
You have to push down in order to select reverse
58:01 Gotta blip the throttle in my 2015 Tacoma… 😂
Is there an episode y’all have done about good manual transmission etiquette. I’d like to hear what y’all have to say, since my family’s definition of good is a pretty low bar.
Jason, is your Ryobi a low or mid-torque? Their high torques are pretty stout. Also, the Toyota 4 Runner is a 5 speed auto!
The funny thing is that TTI owns both Ryobi and Milwaukee (and Ridgid) power tools.
A short while after introduction on the Strayan market, the Datsun Stanza (late 70s rehash of the legendary 510/1600) was given a 5spd. Bizarrely, all Nissan had available, was a dog-leg box - a pain for its role as a basic commuter
Toyota still uses the 5 speed auto in the 4runner
With regards to the mention of shifting with fingertips instead of fists to avoid money shifting: I have a 2011 Outback 6mt with 180k miles, and second gear is weird. When the trans is cold, you HAVE to double clutch to downshift from 3rd to 2nd in a neighborhood, but when it's warm, I can shift from 6th to 2nd at 80mph (2nd tops out at 57) with 2 fingers and it feels like 4th until you start to let out the clutch. Dunno what's up with that, but I've just learned better how to execute 6th to 4th and I warn people before they drive my car on the freeway.
I don't think the 510 wagon ever had a 5-speed (at least not in the US). The 4-door hatchback 510 did indeed have a dogleg 5-speed. I think the only Datsun wagon with the dogleg 5-speeds would have been the early 210s. The only cars I can remember my dad having with dogleg patterns were the aforementioned 1980 510 hatchback and a 1979 928. I only got to drive the 928. I never had much trouble with it. I did mistakenly start in 3rd one time, but it just took off a bit slower...
I had a 78 (I think) 210 hatchback with a 5 speed dogleg.
I did a 15,000 km road trip around the states in a 10 year old Saab with no problems, maybe your choice of cars needs thinking 😅😅😅. Highly mod car, 275 hp
You could still get the current V8 Vantage with the 7spd dog leg until 2021 in Australia, not sure if it is still available elsewhere but that’s the most recent that comes to mind
Note: Charlie is one of 3 people shopping for Astons in Australia's inflation crisis 🤭
@@Nightmaretyrant yessir
@@Nightmaretyrant why do people complain about inflation but also complain when the cash rate goes up? Am I missing something?
The cheapest route to soft close doors is most certainly an S430 as all W220s have them. Not that you would want any other part of an S430 (coming from an S55 owner no less).
I hope the Pietsch episode is not about Ferdinand. Troll us talking about the rest of the family.
For the first year or two, the _Australian_ Chrysler Valiant Charger, had 2 different manual gearshifts, for one box. Most had a column shift for the 3-speed Borg-Warner 'box. Those who opted for the manual 'box with a floorshift, still only had 3 forward ratios.
They got to move the stick from the dog-leg 1st, back left.
Chrysler Australia was dragged up to a racy, early 60s standard of transmissions, by belatedly offering a 4-speed with floorshift, from about mid '72. 🙄
Toyota's 4Runner still has the 5-speed automatic they've been using for ages...
Why use a dog leg 1st in a 7-speed? There is never a race situation where 7th speed is needed. So design it as a 6 speed and add 7th as a dog leg. On finessing shifts I was selling (giving away) a T5 swapped XR4Ti on which the junkyard gearbox had no sychros on second. On the test drive the buyer was hamfisting the shifts while I cringed in the passenger seat and could not get it into second. Told him to stop the car. We switched seats and I proceeded to teach him how to up and downshift into second (rev matching and finesse for upshifting and double clutching with quick rev match for downshifts).
Wasn't the Maserati bora trans a citroen sm trans? Same as the early lotus esprit? Which is a ds trans with a fifth in it's own housing on the end.
So almost all semi-trucks use dog-leg 5 speeds, does this make them performance vehicles?
Honda Civic Wagon AWD with the crawler gear
Lexus LS430 - soft close doors and reliable 🤷
A dogleg is 1st gear to the left and down. And that's it. That's the only definition of a dogleg box. Cammisa is making shit up as usual! :D
I'm partial to DTSs garage, but he seems to have a high turnover rate. Sold the R129. Beautiful car.
lots of cars to experience and life is only so long - got to have turnover
I love quickjacks. So much safer. Only car mine don’t fit oddly enough, G80 M3…. Jack pads on that car are 6 inches from each tire.
I had 3 on tree on a 69 rambler american :)
another week of asking for tasteful carmudgeon i could wear out and about without looking like a tool
Once you go soft close, you can never go back
Global Suzuki models sold in India used a 4-speed auto till 2022.
I drove my 79 Skyhawk today, although sadly, it's an automatic.
Sorry, did I hear that Hyphen wanted soft close doors?
But did you replace the pedal itself haha
Nissan Versa is still standard with a 5-speed manual.
Now explain what the hell double clutching is
Had ONE dogleg (68 912) at a time I had 5 other H pattern cars.. too much of a mindfuck to be "cool" and instinctive. Sold it partially because of that.
I'm 47 y/o life long car enthusiast that has some knowledge and experience.....until I turn on this two....and then I know....I know NOTHING.