Counterpoint: The Honda NSX didn't fail to outsell Ferrari because it was soft or boring. In the 80s/90s, homologation cars like Porsche RS models that Jason and Derek fetishize struggled to sell, because people wanted fast beautiful GTs, not hardcore, stripped out cars with fantastic handling (most owners never got even remotely close to the limits of handling anyways, and track days were far less popular back then). The reason the OG NSX and most other super car challengers from non-super car brands have struggled to sell is because people literally grew up with Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini posters on their walls and equate those brands with success. They are simply what (stupid) dreams are made of, and it doesn't matter if another car is better, most successful 50 year olds who are looking to celebrate their success with a super car want a recognizable exotic car from the brands everyone knows, not the objectively superior car from a more pedestrian brand. This is also why Mclaren and other niche super car brands face an uphill struggle - even if you beat Ferrari's offering, Ferrari just has the advantage of car guys having masturbated over the brand for half their life.
100% agree "Honda/Acura" doesn't fit the mantra of what the buyers who are buying supercars wanted, they circle jerk Ferrari and Porsche and Lamborghini no matter their short comings due to a brand image and sheer ridiculousness of those cars. The NSX didn't fit that and was the grade A student that did everything well but didn't excel or wow in any area. Personally I'd much rather have an NSX NA1 and hopefully will buy one within 5 years but I do agree it was the right car but aimed at the wrong buyers I believe.
If we take your point as truth, the irony is that Honda could have sold a new NSX in crazy numbers because lots of people did grow up with NSXes on posters in their bedrooms, despite the poor sales. Unfortunately, they completely changed the car and alienated fans of the NSX nameplate in the process.
@@Talynen the problem with the new NSX is it isn't a new NSX it's an American designed want to be super car, I look at the prior nsx as Pinnacle of "sports cars" not super car echelon. They tried to go way to upscale with the new one and it absolutely failed. Let alone the styling on the new NSX is horrid imo, they should have never let an American design it they didn't even harken back to the old model in the slightest and it won't age well.
It's unfortunate that most consumers are this retarded, because you are absolutely right. Marketing is the key to success, not having the best product.
NSX sales were also hurt by the increase value of the Yen, which resulted in significant price increases for the car ($62K in 1991, $69K in 1993, $77k in 1994, ~$85k in 1995).
Also Hector is going to be running 3 Honda Civics with spoon engines. And on top of that, he just went into Harry's, and he ordered 3 T66 turbos, with NOS. And a Motec exhaust
Man, Derek's philosophical speech around the 42 min mark was powerful and I feel spot on. The way he words some philosophical ideas at times is truly way older wisdom than he seems like he should have at his age. I have definitely never been a Honda fan boy or real fan at all but this was a great episode still as I was in high school around these "classic" times so to look back on them now when all I was into was Camaro/Mustang is very cool.
It’s because the Type R is sold worldwide and the Japanese and other countries have restrictions and/or cultural aversion to loud exhausts. If you watch SavageGeese’s video they explain all of that with Honda’s engineers.
Props for mentioning that Civic and Integra are too big for the "hot hatch" category. Aside from the style of the trunk lid opening, they have nothing in common with hatchbacks of the olden days. Originally, hatchbacks were primarily small cars, that happened to have the "hatch" style trunk opening as a RESULT of car being small. Nowadays, most "hatchbacks" are just sedans with a fancy "liftback" trunk opening and a few inches of body cut off at the rear.
@@JCDenton95 No, I don't need to be grateful -- I hate effing hatchbacks. The point here is that Civic Type R and Acura Integra are NOT hatchbacks. Watch Savagegeese video on Integra -- one of the people from Acura said it's a "liftback". Period.
As someone who has owned, street driven, tracked, and autocrossed the same 2001 Honda S2000 for 14 years and over 100k miles now, your criticisms are completely valid. IMHO the biggest barrier to enjoyment in the S2000 is that it needs to be driven hard to be truly enjoyed, but it is tricky to drive hard (especially in stock form but even with mods). Mine has been everything from bone stock, to its current form which has aftermarket lower seats (game changing for driving position) poly bushings everywhere, Ohlins coilovers, bolt ons, tune, etc... The car is extremely alignment sensitive and needs a bit of toe-in in the rear to handle right, it also has a lot of lift throttle oversteer much like a mid or rear engined car. Thus, what gets people in trouble is when you try to trail brake too much (which is barely enough in other cars) or lift mid corner the tail comes out. When you get good with the car you can anticipate it and catch it, but it catches people off guard and happens quick. It took a few seasons of doing a LOT of autocross to get really good at managing it. The workaround on the street is to brake a bit early and do most of your cornering while accelerating which settles the car way down. As for the engine sound and character, an exhaust and intake (since I know you like induction noise) really make a world of difference. Having also owned an RSX Type S, stock the K20 sounds better, with an intake they are pretty equal, but the F20/F22 sound better than the K with a well designed aftermarket exhaust.
Jason's complaint about the S2000 driving position is user-specific. I owned one for 10 years and found the driving position was fine for me. Regarding the chassis, that is more of an AP1 problem (2000-2003 model years). Honda put a lot of roll stiffness in the rear of the car and it tended to break away too readily. They learned a lesson and the AP2 had stiffer springs in the front and softer ones in the rear. There were also issues with the Bridgestone tires Honda specced for the car. Both generations came with OEM tires with issues in the rain. I'd love to drive one with Michelin PS4S tires on it - I bet they would really help the handling. The gearbox in that car was sublime - best I have ever used with the only other one being close was an early 240Z.
Interesting what Jason was saying about city driving and the VTEC crossover point on the S2000 being too high. Interesting because people tune the ones that are drive-by-wire (06+) to have a lower VTEC engagement, and it's a fairly straightforward software change.
I've heard that male-to-male cable for hooking up a generator referred to as a "suicide cable" because of the obvious safety risks. Often it's done through an electric dryer outlet, since that can handle both phases in a single cable. The proper way to do is is with a hardwired transfer switch, and you select some circuits to be driven through that all the time. The switch lets you power those circuits from either grid power or generator power, and that way only one can be connected at a time so there's no potential issue of backfeeding the grid.
Great episode. I really enjoy listening to you two discuss impressions of the same cars driven on the same day and at the same location (+ previous experience).
Most enthusiast's would revel in the experience of a 6-speed NSX, but 99% of us don't have the acumen you two do to properly critique one. I drove one on Turo for, about 40 miles on some SoCal country roads, and I adored it! Now that I look back, I realize my appreciation was for its usability, its compliance... and the fact my wife liked it 😅. It felt like a grown up version on my AW11 MR2. However, I did notice after getting in my slower, less refined MR2 with balled tires and zero drivers aids is just more fun on public roads!
Wish you'd had time to talk about the 3-cylinder hybrid in the original Honda Insight. Over three years mine (stick shift) consistently delivered 60-70mpg on the highway. The car was highly specialized -- a two-person highway commuter -- and it did what it was designed to do, and did it very smoothly.
The Italian six cylinder bike Derek references at the beginning, the Benelli Sei, is actually Honda based. Benelli effectively added two cylinders to a Honda CB500 engine to create their inline-six. They did relocate the alternator to keep the width under control, but otherwise the Benelli six-cylinder engine is very similar to the Honda fours of the period.
Well... I can argue both sides of the who-copied-who debate on this one. The Benelli was first to market, by 2-3 years as I recall. Their copying of Honda's basic engine design is something I did not know, so thanks for that tidbit. Furthering that side of the debate is the fact that Honda built and successfully raced six-cylinder bikes in the 1960s, so they were the inline six-cylinder motorcycle engine pioneers. But, in addition to breaking new ground, the Honda motorcycle division also has a long and strong history of doing their own version of a competitor's unique/interesting technical configuration. Beside the Benelli, other examples include the Moto Guzzi-style transverse V-twin engine in the CX 500, the BMW-like 'flat' Goldwing engine, and the Ducati-like Super Hawk v-twin sport bike.
With the S2000 I had an AP2 and proper tires made a huge difference. Once I replaced the Bridgestones I bought the car with to Yokahama AD07 (widest size I could fit on stock wheels and not rolling the fenders) I was able to hold a 2nd gear drift countersteering at full steering lock take my hands off the wheel and wave both hands while holding it there modulating the throttle.
14:50 Maybe i missed it, but i didn't hear where you put the generator. Just please make sure it's outside, well venitlated and won't blow exhaust gasses into your home. As dumb as that sounds, but i attended the funeral of a friend 2021 who repaired his generator and tested it out while it being in his garage. The garage is lower than surface level. He was an aircraft mechanic for 30 years for big airlines all over the world and far from stupid. But it seems he underestimated the effects of the little generator...
On the Honda mower subject, I've had one for almost 10 years, totally abuse it, rarely do maintenance, and leave it sitting with Ethanol gas in the winter. With rare exception (and that's still 2-3 pulls), it starts with 1 pull.
My dad bought a Honda mower in 1990, the only reason he got rid of it in 2018 was because it snapped an axle, and it was going to be half the cost of a new one to fix. I have dibs on the new one when he doesn't need it anymore. Those things are bulletproof. First start of the season my dad and I take bets on 2 or 3 pulls to start. After that it's always one.
57:30 To answer hyphan’s Type R ground clearance question: It is fine. The only times I worry about scraping is on a steep exit from a parking lot. Taking one of those at an angle you will just about never touch. Lower the car or put an after-market splitter on it and I am sure you will scrape easily.
I don’t understand Jason’s complaint about the gearing in the S2K. In an AP2, 1st tops out around 38mph, 2nd is around 58mph. That’s identical or within 1-2 mph of Miatas. And to me at least, is generally pretty short. The dead epas is completely understandable though. Too bad he’s never pushed one to 9/10s cause that’s where they really shine
He has got to be the only person in the world with that pov . No other ap2 owner I've ever been in contact with has said ya know these gears are too long for a street car.
As for the Senna and the nsx. Senna gave some suggestions to the mechanics after testing an early prototype but as far as I'm concerned the bulk of the testing was done by Satoru Nakajima.
Yep, people act like the NSX wouldn’t have existed without Senna and that he worked tirelessly trying to tune it to perfection…..please, I’m surprised the guy even had time to take it out for a hot lap with his busy racing schedule
@@jameswillard1 Well he would try it anyways. He had an excellent relationship with Honda and all of their mechanics during the lotus Honda / McLaren Honda partnership.
It's so frustrating this myth! Sennas involvement was so negligent that it doesn't change anything. But what a great promotion that worked on people (and still does) like a charm.
I think you guys shared some great info on the s2k. Its really unfortunate that it is so hard to trust and the f22 lacks character because it really only is enjoyable near the limit. My modified Sti’s made me giggle constantly, whereas my s2k feels like an accord 90% of the time i drive it. I think thats why im always so confused by the general lack of love you guys have for turbos. Im thankful i got to try it out on grattan and confirm that im just using the car completely incorrectly.
Another frustrating point is that even if you put blizzaks on it and slide it around it still seems so difficult to do the most basic slides that doing in any other longer wheelbase car would not even break a sweat. Even after an entire michigan winter i can offer literally no insight as to why they loop so easily.
The limit being where the fun is , is in fact the character of the car. If you had an h22 powered accord it would feel eerily similar to the f22c. The s shouldn't be driven like a v6 accord because it isn't one
@@unearthednsx116. i know thats why i added the ending, im very lucky to have been able to daily drive it for about 35,000 miles in just over a year since i picked it up. I will certainly get another when it can be a track only toy, but my local roads are mostly curveless
@@puddud4 im sure they could find a nice dialed one if they are interested. Seems their love for vw checks most of those boxes sufficiently. I see dozens of them every week in MI so i dont feel they are necessarily undiscovered gems. EJs will always have a place in my heart
16:32 Honda mowers are amazing. My dad bought one around 1990. It was still going when he stopped cutting his own grass in the mid-2010s. I gave it to their neighbor who had the same model as a parts mower.
LOL, my Honda gen does the exact same...needs a little choke or it'll surge/drop/surge/drop - forget eco mode. nice and quiet though ! There's an idle jet you need to clean, not the main one... black plastic screw on the carb you take out (and count turns), pop the plastic jet under that - clean, reassemble. No surge.
Is the difference between the Integra and the Civic the fact the Integra is North America only and the Civic is an international model? Can't do pops and bangs for europe anymore I think.
Same here, owned a 2000 that I wanted so bad that I paid $5k over MSRP. Ended up liking some things about it but overall found the car slightly disappointing. Then decided a few years later to revisit one and decided to buy a Spa Yellow example because there were some improvements to the car such as a glass rear window etc and had the same reaction to it as the first. To this day anytime someone finds out that I didn’t love the S2K experience they seem to be so intent on telling me I was wrong and want to change my opinion but for me the car was just meh. Other cars I owned in that period prior to and after the S2K, that I found far superior were the 1993 Toyota MR2 Turbo, 1995 Mazda RX7, 1998 BMW M3, 2001 Boxster S, 2004 Mazda RX8 etc
The CBX is not based on the Benelli 750 Sei it's based on the CB750 with development input from honda racing. The Benelli 750 Sei is based on the CB500 and is SOHC 2 valve where as the CBX is DOHC 4 valve.
Counterpoint: The main reason Nsx didn't outsell the Ferrari despite being faster, cheaper and easier to live with is because it was still expensive at 60k back in the 90s, it's like 100k in today's money. No one with that kind of money was even going to look at a Honda/acura dealership
Just need to clean the carb on you generator....I had the same surging issue.....you could also try some seafoam to see if it clears the carb. They have a very tiny idle circuit that will slightly clog very easily.
The NSX is like the Pixies: Not commercially successful, but hugely influential on what came after. I remember a story going around in the ‘90s about Honda’s engineering philosophy. If Toyota were engineering something that was determined to require a 12mm bolt for strength, they’d spec a 21mm bolt in the standard grade of steel. Nissan would spec a 17mm bolt in that same place. And Honda would spec a 12mm bolt, but in a higher quality material. I don’t know how much truth there is to that story as far as the specifics go. I always assumed it was more illustrative than literal. But yeah, my Integra had better quality hardware than my W123 did.
@@verdict1163 they really don’t get much better than the W123. That’s the thing: The W123 had excellent hardware. But the Honda’s was a little bit better.
I agree the EPS is numb, but properly set up (for SCCA ST classing) S2000s and ND2s are some of the best driving experiences to be found. Seating position is more like a spec racer than upright VWs Jason's used to, but fair point that Honda should have added tilt/telescoping wheel to accommodate wider range of body geometries. Hoping Derek & Jason get more seat time in various mildly-sorted S2000s and ND2s so they can compare against the '86 twins and E30 M3 and an early Elan in a proper ICONS episode covering spicy 4-cylinder, RWD sports cars with approachable limits. As for your pearl-clutching "snap oversteer" hyperbole on '00-'03 (AP1) S2000s (and early '91-'92 MKII MR2 Turbos before they changed their geometry), a bit of rear toe-in tames that. Proper alignment + revised springs/dampers, + a tune that boost midrange by engaging VTEC at 4K, not 6) + a high-flow cat, + 255 RE-71R setup F/R = SUBLIME experience from chassis, powertrain, ergonomics, styling. Perfect for early morning sorties through the twisties, and still easy on the wallet in the grand scheme of things.
So basically all you have to do to make it a great driving experience is make a host of changes that modify basically every every system on the car well beyond OEM, and then it becomes ideal. Got it.
Your aversion to proven, thoughtful enhancements of a given platform may mean you drive cars like the GT4RS, Z06, T.50… that aren’t compromised in stock form. The rest of us peasants who tweak our nineties-designed S2Ks, NDs and 86 hoopties are trying to unleash their potential (vs. what the platforms’ cost cutters nixed in dev). Depending on the car, a few tweaks can balance the handling, improve powerband / throttle response, and transform it from "meh" (my AP2 when it was stock) to grin-inducing "wow. (coin-flip on whether I choose it vs. our 987.2 CS). SCCA National results (and PAX index, IYKYK) show the minimally modified classes (aka “Street”) for S2K/ND/86 cars run slower times than versions prepped for Street Touring, Street Prepared, and Prepared (increasing levels of modification / decreasing level of survivability on rough pavement). The ST class prep allows no truly invasive surgery (changing internal engine parts, revising camber curves, changing suspension pickup points, etc.) that you allude to ("modify basically every system of the car well beyond OEM"), so the core elements are there, just enhanced like Derek mentioned in his preference of the NSX Type R's calibration vs. regular NSX. YMMV.
These guys evaluate cars on their factory setups because that’s the only standard to judge. Of course you can correct for deficiencies but at that point you are talking about a different car.
I owned an Ap1 s2k for about 13 months and was using it as a track car, averaging twice a month, the chassis is so twitchie and the steering not only has zero feel but is incredibly sensitive. Honestly it was stressful to drive I never really felt like I could push it past 7/10s. I ended up binning it into a wall at Sonoma raceway trying to rotate the car on throttle. I was pissed at myself and the car but I was also relieved I would never have to drive it again. This was one of the most disappointing experiences of my life because the s2k was my hero car, on paper it was everything someone could want in a fun car, I just don't think it was executed correctly. I also have had a chance to drive the ITR and NSX and I wasn't in love with the NSX either, similar to the s2k I would never feel comfortable driving it at speeds and also like the s2k on the street it was rather boring to drive because I wouldn't feel comfortable pushing either of them. The ITR on the other hand is such a joy to drive, sure it may not be as fast but man I wish I could afford one now but at their current prices for a relatively decent example I just can't justify/afford one. I have been looking at FL5 CTRs for a while now but the dealer markups are terrible, 20k markup should be illegal, I believe the NSX had the same problem when it came out in the 90s, massive markup kills enthusiast cars. As for the new NSX I think people were expecting a raw experience, basically a cheaper version of a GT3 and what we got was technological gimmick car that was as expensive. I am sure if the New NSX was far cheaper it would have had more buyers even not being the raw car people were expecting.
Love listening to you you guys talk cars and it was great meeting Derek at Radwood last week. I wish I could have found Jason during the AMA because I'd ask him to pick my next rad era car. Only issue is I'm all over the place...mk2 VW 16V? 4th Gen LS F body? Porsche Boxter? 944? AHHHHH too many choices!!!!
Those choices are nothing alike, I think you need to figure out what driving you’re doing. Do you have lots of tight roads? Then go VW MK2. Big highways? Get some power.
Thank you for bringing up that quintessential Honda - white with red badges and seats - is something cool in its own right. I love the nsx when I think about it as a jdm tuner type car now that it's older, and it can be thought of as sitting at a pinnacle of a particular branch of that tree.
I got a short drive in a B18C5 Integra Type-R when I went to Australia many years ago, so it was still pretty fresh (~50k miles) and had Spoon headers and full exhaust. Cam change is at 5700 I'm pretty sure and the engine personality and sound change is nuts. Geared short so gave the sensation of speed though it actually wasn't that fast, but really composed chassis and accurate steering, though I found the feel wooly. Also a real tin can of a car lol, not a highway cruiser! No experience with the F20 but I find the K20s to be really shrill and dentist drilley to the ear near the 8k redline, otherwise great motors though.
100% Agree on the Honda product planning snafu... They made some dumb decisions. I'd take the Civic, delete the wing, add the tune, exhaust, and suspensions settings from the Integra and you've got a winner. Maybe the sound system from the Integra too based on the description by Jason.
The real trick with generators is to get one that runs on propane. Don’t have to worry about gas getting stale. Don’t have to worry about cleaning carburetors. makes a little less power than it does on gas, but a reasonable compromise, in my opinion.
@44:27 the dead steering feel was because Honda intentionally designed to have 0 kingpin offset as they have no power steering so it's easier to park. Yeah another rational decision to rule out the fun for the sake of usability...
I love the snubbing of “non-automotive” motorcycles but complete conjecture on electrical power distribution methods. If such snobbery was removed, you could have added the RC211V 5 cylinder bike to the mix. If missed that discussion my bad! I needed some background noise today.
Omg... I had a chance to buy a 2024 Integra Type-s manual today. White and red interior.. Drove it! and loved it! Made me want to trade my STI 2021 for it.. But for 20K markup. I'd rather pay off the little debt i had... Ughh..
Im deciding between acura ITS or CTR..going ITS .. just can't do the Honda wing.. and think acura looks better ,audio, suspension for daily etc... on a track I'd rather have the ctr... but I don't get to track as much as I did when j was younger
Off topic but should I consider a W124 260E for a daily driver? I'm new to any Mercedes, but like the look of this era of Mercs. I'd love your opinions @TheCarmudgeonShow :)
Two thoughts on the NSX: first, using the foreign motoring press as evidence the NSX was average is somewhat laughable, they are famously euro-centric. Of course they are going to say a Porsche/Ferrari is better, because they always dismiss anything that isn’t European. I don’t think this is indicative of anything other than their own bias. And when you have two more people who grew up on Euro cars… Second, the design brief on the NSX was never to beat Ferrari at its own game, it was to be a Ferrari you could drive daily. Jason views cars like the NSX on how well they do on a one hour Sunday blast. It’s not going to win there. But the NSX’s premise was “what if I trade 10% of the passion away for 90% more daily usability?” If you use an NSX only for Sunday morning fun runs, you’re missing the point; the point was to use the NSX every day and have fun with it every day rather than driving your boring sedan 6 days a week and your Italian on Sundays. A little less fun, way more often.
This might be a weird thing to ask, but could it be possible to turn down the bass in Jasons voice? I often listen to the podcast in my car, and with all the low frequency road noise Jasons voice just disappears. And then I crank the radio up until the speakers rattle just to hear him and then Dereks voice is too loud :D. Adjusting the bass myself just then ruins Dereks voice and in general isnt very pleasant to listen to. (please dont hate me for this)
On the Civic/Integra, it's about what you value the most. I don't value the Civic seats as very important versus I very highly value the sound system, sound deadening, better exhaust sound, and softer suspension settings in the Integra while I hate the Civic wing.
The irony about the NSX and Ohio is that I see more supercars here than anywhere else I have been except California. I've seen everything from an EB110 3 weeks ago to a Koenigsegg Agera and tons of McLarens and Ferraris. McLarens seem to be just as popular as R8s near me though.
Weird other motors are a nice sideline conversation. Not every episode, but once in a while a talk about ghetto rigging snowmobiles, or generators or what have you is welcome.
Now I understand why you dislike the S2K. You haven’t driven it at limit and its limit behavior is what makes it magic. Handling is trial by fire. You have to like oversteery knife edge cars to like it. But so good when you get it right. Would love for you guys to drive mine if so inclined. I’m local.
You can swich out the Civic Type R damper module for the Integra Type S and have the Integra ride quality. No need to program it or something like VW or Ford cars have to do. Its a steaight forward parts change plug & play. Honda simplicity.
I've heard honda civic type R is a global car. Apparently some countries have exhaust sound regulations. While Type S is a US market only, which they're free to do whatever they want with the exhaust.
I know you guys are not fans of V8 era Ferraris but fact is, I saw a couple of shots of the 355 in the NSX video and I couldn't stop drooling. Let alone the noise. The 355 is a terrible car yet (in concept) it's the essence of what a supercar should be as an experience. Clarkson did liken this to the mistress anecdote (article is called "Clarkson on: His Other Half" where his XJR that he dailied was towed away again and he had to use the Ferrari and he imagined what life would be like if he did try that. Quentin Wilson (an old Top Gear presenter) wanted him to sell it because it lost about 20k pounds in 4 years of ownership. Bonkers rationally but to me it's the essence of what I think supercar buyers of that era were chasing; lightning in a bottle. That's what the 355 promised, anyway. "And I especially don't want to sell it after last night. Coming back from Hampshire up the A34, I lumbered up the Ridgeway behind a truck at 40mph, cursing our need to have fresh fruit in the supermarkets every morning. But then, he pulled over and as I crested the brow, all of England was laid before me, a patchwork of yellow and green turned orange by the setting sun. Best of all, though, I could see the road snaking off into the distance and there wasn't a thing on it. Nothing. So I'm sorry, but I whacked it into second, floored it and just kept right on going until I was flat-out in sixth. At this kind of speed, the Ferrari 355 becomes so much more than a collection of parts made by the lowest bidder. It becomes alive." I personally don't see how a NSX could possibly compare but actually bang on, now retrospectively the NSX was to a generation of people who lusted after it the same situation the F355 was.
My experience with the S2000 was... underwhelming. I drove an AP2 S2000 CR and loved everything but the power band. It only pulls between like 6500-8500 rpm. It's also undrivable on SoCal roads. It was nice at about 7/10ths in the twisties, but at the limit it just felt like any pebble or crunchy leaf was going to upset the car. It felt over sprung.
Bring your Honda to Action Sport & Power Equipment in Santa Rosa. They've worked on my Honda generators (2) and Honda mowers for over 20 years. They *will* fix your generator. They are the real deal.
We all are watching these episodes to witness Hyphen's growing prowess of clapping.
He may have reached the summit of that mountain.
One step forward two steps back. We'll get there
I knew I kept coming back for a reason
Counterpoint: The Honda NSX didn't fail to outsell Ferrari because it was soft or boring. In the 80s/90s, homologation cars like Porsche RS models that Jason and Derek fetishize struggled to sell, because people wanted fast beautiful GTs, not hardcore, stripped out cars with fantastic handling (most owners never got even remotely close to the limits of handling anyways, and track days were far less popular back then). The reason the OG NSX and most other super car challengers from non-super car brands have struggled to sell is because people literally grew up with Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini posters on their walls and equate those brands with success. They are simply what (stupid) dreams are made of, and it doesn't matter if another car is better, most successful 50 year olds who are looking to celebrate their success with a super car want a recognizable exotic car from the brands everyone knows, not the objectively superior car from a more pedestrian brand. This is also why Mclaren and other niche super car brands face an uphill struggle - even if you beat Ferrari's offering, Ferrari just has the advantage of car guys having masturbated over the brand for half their life.
100% agree "Honda/Acura" doesn't fit the mantra of what the buyers who are buying supercars wanted, they circle jerk Ferrari and Porsche and Lamborghini no matter their short comings due to a brand image and sheer ridiculousness of those cars. The NSX didn't fit that and was the grade A student that did everything well but didn't excel or wow in any area. Personally I'd much rather have an NSX NA1 and hopefully will buy one within 5 years but I do agree it was the right car but aimed at the wrong buyers I believe.
If we take your point as truth, the irony is that Honda could have sold a new NSX in crazy numbers because lots of people did grow up with NSXes on posters in their bedrooms, despite the poor sales. Unfortunately, they completely changed the car and alienated fans of the NSX nameplate in the process.
@@Talynen the problem with the new NSX is it isn't a new NSX it's an American designed want to be super car, I look at the prior nsx as Pinnacle of "sports cars" not super car echelon. They tried to go way to upscale with the new one and it absolutely failed. Let alone the styling on the new NSX is horrid imo, they should have never let an American design it they didn't even harken back to the old model in the slightest and it won't age well.
This man gets it
It's unfortunate that most consumers are this retarded, because you are absolutely right. Marketing is the key to success, not having the best product.
NSX sales were also hurt by the increase value of the Yen, which resulted in significant price increases for the car ($62K in 1991, $69K in 1993, $77k in 1994, ~$85k in 1995).
People forget about economics, geopolitics, the plaza accord, tariffs and also automotive racism.
Also Hector is going to be running 3 Honda Civics with spoon engines. And on top of that, he just went into Harry's, and he ordered 3 T66 turbos, with NOS. And a Motec exhaust
During the NSX discussion about character, I was remembering the video Derek made with a Type R where he was giggling as he drove the car.
Man, Derek's philosophical speech around the 42 min mark was powerful and I feel spot on. The way he words some philosophical ideas at times is truly way older wisdom than he seems like he should have at his age. I have definitely never been a Honda fan boy or real fan at all but this was a great episode still as I was in high school around these "classic" times so to look back on them now when all I was into was Camaro/Mustang is very cool.
I think he’s definitely gained some wisdom on his way to his current ripe age of 90.
It’s because the Type R is sold worldwide and the Japanese and other countries have restrictions and/or cultural aversion to loud exhausts. If you watch SavageGeese’s video they explain all of that with Honda’s engineers.
You can do a pedal/button dance in the Acura to defeat the VSC.
Props for mentioning that Civic and Integra are too big for the "hot hatch" category. Aside from the style of the trunk lid opening, they have nothing in common with hatchbacks of the olden days. Originally, hatchbacks were primarily small cars, that happened to have the "hatch" style trunk opening as a RESULT of car being small. Nowadays, most "hatchbacks" are just sedans with a fancy "liftback" trunk opening and a few inches of body cut off at the rear.
At least we have some approximation of the hatchback, instead of it completely disappearing. Be grateful.
@@JCDenton95instead of being grateful, I'd rather have you and those like you stop buying suvs. 😉
They are pretty huge but relatively light. Sadly 3200-3300 lbs is what is considered light these days.
@@JCDenton95 No, I don't need to be grateful -- I hate effing hatchbacks. The point here is that Civic Type R and Acura Integra are NOT hatchbacks. Watch Savagegeese video on Integra -- one of the people from Acura said it's a "liftback". Period.
I felt sad until my mate got a golf R a few years back. Hot hatches are still here and still awesome
As someone who has owned, street driven, tracked, and autocrossed the same 2001 Honda S2000 for 14 years and over 100k miles now, your criticisms are completely valid. IMHO the biggest barrier to enjoyment in the S2000 is that it needs to be driven hard to be truly enjoyed, but it is tricky to drive hard (especially in stock form but even with mods). Mine has been everything from bone stock, to its current form which has aftermarket lower seats (game changing for driving position) poly bushings everywhere, Ohlins coilovers, bolt ons, tune, etc... The car is extremely alignment sensitive and needs a bit of toe-in in the rear to handle right, it also has a lot of lift throttle oversteer much like a mid or rear engined car. Thus, what gets people in trouble is when you try to trail brake too much (which is barely enough in other cars) or lift mid corner the tail comes out. When you get good with the car you can anticipate it and catch it, but it catches people off guard and happens quick. It took a few seasons of doing a LOT of autocross to get really good at managing it. The workaround on the street is to brake a bit early and do most of your cornering while accelerating which settles the car way down. As for the engine sound and character, an exhaust and intake (since I know you like induction noise) really make a world of difference. Having also owned an RSX Type S, stock the K20 sounds better, with an intake they are pretty equal, but the F20/F22 sound better than the K with a well designed aftermarket exhaust.
52:00 Since the Acura is USDM only, it doesn't need to meet the same regulations as the CTR
Jason's complaint about the S2000 driving position is user-specific. I owned one for 10 years and found the driving position was fine for me.
Regarding the chassis, that is more of an AP1 problem (2000-2003 model years). Honda put a lot of roll stiffness in the rear of the car and it tended to break away too readily. They learned a lesson and the AP2 had stiffer springs in the front and softer ones in the rear. There were also issues with the Bridgestone tires Honda specced for the car. Both generations came with OEM tires with issues in the rain. I'd love to drive one with Michelin PS4S tires on it - I bet they would really help the handling.
The gearbox in that car was sublime - best I have ever used with the only other one being close was an early 240Z.
I think the Miata shifter is better than the S2000. It’s not that amazing
Just purchased a 2023 Civic Hatchback EX-L in Smoky Mauve Pearl. It's brilliant.
11th gen gang! :)
@@colbyentzminger217 hell yeah! Thank you :)
Listing to this after I spun my AP1 into the tires on the track was phone
Picked up an FL5 Type R a week before Christmas. 17,000 miles so far on it. I may be biased, but I love it.
Damn son
Traded in FK8 for FL5. No regrets
Interesting what Jason was saying about city driving and the VTEC crossover point on the S2000 being too high. Interesting because people tune the ones that are drive-by-wire (06+) to have a lower VTEC engagement, and it's a fairly straightforward software change.
I've heard that male-to-male cable for hooking up a generator referred to as a "suicide cable" because of the obvious safety risks. Often it's done through an electric dryer outlet, since that can handle both phases in a single cable. The proper way to do is is with a hardwired transfer switch, and you select some circuits to be driven through that all the time. The switch lets you power those circuits from either grid power or generator power, and that way only one can be connected at a time so there's no potential issue of backfeeding the grid.
Isn't that what he said?
I loved the "Hyphen" shout-out from the NSHyphenX video Jason did
Great episode. I really enjoy listening to you two discuss impressions of the same cars driven on the same day and at the same location (+ previous experience).
Most enthusiast's would revel in the experience of a 6-speed NSX, but 99% of us don't have the acumen you two do to properly critique one. I drove one on Turo for, about 40 miles on some SoCal country roads, and I adored it! Now that I look back, I realize my appreciation was for its usability, its compliance... and the fact my wife liked it 😅. It felt like a grown up version on my AW11 MR2. However, I did notice after getting in my slower, less refined MR2 with balled tires and zero drivers aids is just more fun on public roads!
Wait is there a new Ultimate Lap Battle coming out with the GR86? Super curious to see what Randy can do with one of those
0:01 Ladies and Gentlemen its Derek Clapton 👏
Wish you'd had time to talk about the 3-cylinder hybrid in the original Honda Insight. Over three years mine (stick shift) consistently delivered 60-70mpg on the highway. The car was highly specialized -- a two-person highway commuter -- and it did what it was designed to do, and did it very smoothly.
The Italian six cylinder bike Derek references at the beginning, the Benelli Sei, is actually Honda based.
Benelli effectively added two cylinders to a Honda CB500 engine to create their inline-six.
They did relocate the alternator to keep the width under control, but otherwise the Benelli six-cylinder engine is very similar to the Honda fours of the period.
Well... I can argue both sides of the who-copied-who debate on this one.
The Benelli was first to market, by 2-3 years as I recall. Their copying of Honda's basic engine design is something I did not know, so thanks for that tidbit. Furthering that side of the debate is the fact that Honda built and successfully raced six-cylinder bikes in the 1960s, so they were the inline six-cylinder motorcycle engine pioneers.
But, in addition to breaking new ground, the Honda motorcycle division also has a long and strong history of doing their own version of a competitor's unique/interesting technical configuration. Beside the Benelli, other examples include the Moto Guzzi-style transverse V-twin engine in the CX 500, the BMW-like 'flat' Goldwing engine, and the Ducati-like Super Hawk v-twin sport bike.
With the S2000 I had an AP2 and proper tires made a huge difference. Once I replaced the Bridgestones I bought the car with to Yokahama AD07 (widest size I could fit on stock wheels and not rolling the fenders) I was able to hold a 2nd gear drift countersteering at full steering lock take my hands off the wheel and wave both hands while holding it there modulating the throttle.
14:50 Maybe i missed it, but i didn't hear where you put the generator. Just please make sure it's outside, well venitlated and won't blow exhaust gasses into your home.
As dumb as that sounds, but i attended the funeral of a friend 2021 who repaired his generator and tested it out while it being in his garage. The garage is lower than surface level.
He was an aircraft mechanic for 30 years for big airlines all over the world and far from stupid. But it seems he underestimated the effects of the little generator...
16:05 never drain or treat gas in my honda mower. Starts every season with one pull. Love that thing!
On the Honda mower subject, I've had one for almost 10 years, totally abuse it, rarely do maintenance, and leave it sitting with Ethanol gas in the winter. With rare exception (and that's still 2-3 pulls), it starts with 1 pull.
My dad bought a Honda mower in 1990, the only reason he got rid of it in 2018 was because it snapped an axle, and it was going to be half the cost of a new one to fix. I have dibs on the new one when he doesn't need it anymore.
Those things are bulletproof. First start of the season my dad and I take bets on 2 or 3 pulls to start. After that it's always one.
57:30 To answer hyphan’s Type R ground clearance question: It is fine. The only times I worry about scraping is on a steep exit from a parking lot. Taking one of those at an angle you will just about never touch. Lower the car or put an after-market splitter on it and I am sure you will scrape easily.
I don’t understand Jason’s complaint about the gearing in the S2K. In an AP2, 1st tops out around 38mph, 2nd is around 58mph. That’s identical or within 1-2 mph of Miatas. And to me at least, is generally pretty short.
The dead epas is completely understandable though. Too bad he’s never pushed one to 9/10s cause that’s where they really shine
He has got to be the only person in the world with that pov . No other ap2 owner I've ever been in contact with has said ya know these gears are too long for a street car.
No Honda V5 discussion?
Having an aggressive vtech change over in a mid-engine car can upset the chassis mid corner. I'm surprised Jason or Derek didn't mention this.
Is vTech pronounced enough to induce a spin?
If you're going fast enough that vtec affects your cornering stability, you're already in Vtec.
Jason likes cars that try to kill you
As for the Senna and the nsx. Senna gave some suggestions to the mechanics after testing an early prototype but as far as I'm concerned the bulk of the testing was done by Satoru Nakajima.
Yep, people act like the NSX wouldn’t have existed without Senna and that he worked tirelessly trying to tune it to perfection…..please, I’m surprised the guy even had time to take it out for a hot lap with his busy racing schedule
@@jameswillard1 Well he would try it anyways. He had an excellent relationship with Honda and all of their mechanics during the lotus Honda / McLaren Honda partnership.
It's so frustrating this myth! Sennas involvement was so negligent that it doesn't change anything. But what a great promotion that worked on people (and still does) like a charm.
Really? I thought it was Gansan as he was stationed at Nordschleife at that time.
I think you guys shared some great info on the s2k. Its really unfortunate that it is so hard to trust and the f22 lacks character because it really only is enjoyable near the limit. My modified Sti’s made me giggle constantly, whereas my s2k feels like an accord 90% of the time i drive it. I think thats why im always so confused by the general lack of love you guys have for turbos. Im thankful i got to try it out on grattan and confirm that im just using the car completely incorrectly.
Another frustrating point is that even if you put blizzaks on it and slide it around it still seems so difficult to do the most basic slides that doing in any other longer wheelbase car would not even break a sweat. Even after an entire michigan winter i can offer literally no insight as to why they loop so easily.
The limit being where the fun is , is in fact the character of the car. If you had an h22 powered accord it would feel eerily similar to the f22c. The s shouldn't be driven like a v6 accord because it isn't one
They should talk about the STI more. That car has held its value like no other. You'd think they'd have noticed by now
@@unearthednsx116. i know thats why i added the ending, im very lucky to have been able to daily drive it for about 35,000 miles in just over a year since i picked it up. I will certainly get another when it can be a track only toy, but my local roads are mostly curveless
@@puddud4 im sure they could find a nice dialed one if they are interested. Seems their love for vw checks most of those boxes sufficiently. I see dozens of them every week in MI so i dont feel they are necessarily undiscovered gems. EJs will always have a place in my heart
16:32 Honda mowers are amazing. My dad bought one around 1990. It was still going when he stopped cutting his own grass in the mid-2010s. I gave it to their neighbor who had the same model as a parts mower.
Not everybody has the same taste and preference. That's why I always see car reviews as entertainment.
LOL, my Honda gen does the exact same...needs a little choke or it'll surge/drop/surge/drop - forget eco mode. nice and quiet though ! There's an idle jet you need to clean, not the main one... black plastic screw on the carb you take out (and count turns), pop the plastic jet under that - clean, reassemble. No surge.
Is the difference between the Integra and the Civic the fact the Integra is North America only and the Civic is an international model? Can't do pops and bangs for europe anymore I think.
10 people just died from Jason's electrical advice :D
I thought I was the only one where the s2000 didn't quite make me swoon like it did everyone. Now I found out there's a couple of us!
Same here, owned a 2000 that I wanted so bad that I paid $5k over MSRP. Ended up liking some things about it but overall found the car slightly disappointing. Then decided a few years later to revisit one and decided to buy a Spa Yellow example because there were some improvements to the car such as a glass rear window etc and had the same reaction to it as the first. To this day anytime someone finds out that I didn’t love the S2K experience they seem to be so intent on telling me I was wrong and want to change my opinion but for me the car was just meh. Other cars I owned in that period prior to and after the S2K, that I found far superior were the 1993 Toyota MR2 Turbo, 1995 Mazda RX7, 1998 BMW M3, 2001 Boxster S, 2004 Mazda RX8 etc
It's just so beautiful it almost doesn't matter how it drives.
I test drove one and kept my Miata.
39:18 "people want to give a middle finger to the nun" I first heard this out of sequence, audio only. LOL
Jason on the S2000: "You can't even move the steering wheel!"
Jason on the NSX: "Who cares about a tilt and telescope steering wheel?!?"
The CBX is not based on the Benelli 750 Sei it's based on the CB750 with development input from honda racing. The Benelli 750 Sei is based on the CB500 and is SOHC 2 valve where as the CBX is DOHC 4 valve.
Great podcast!
Counterpoint: The main reason Nsx didn't outsell the Ferrari despite being faster, cheaper and easier to live with is because it was still expensive at 60k back in the 90s, it's like 100k in today's money. No one with that kind of money was even going to look at a Honda/acura dealership
Just need to clean the carb on you generator....I had the same surging issue.....you could also try some seafoam to see if it clears the carb. They have a very tiny idle circuit that will slightly clog very easily.
Nice to finally put a face to Derek!
Guessing you have the EU2000 generator? We have four and when they get hard to start the valves need to be adjusted typically.
I think the nun wearing suspenders and black lipstick from hitman would beg to differ my dear jason...😂
The NSX is like the Pixies: Not commercially successful, but hugely influential on what came after.
I remember a story going around in the ‘90s about Honda’s engineering philosophy. If Toyota were engineering something that was determined to require a 12mm bolt for strength, they’d spec a 21mm bolt in the standard grade of steel. Nissan would spec a 17mm bolt in that same place. And Honda would spec a 12mm bolt, but in a higher quality material.
I don’t know how much truth there is to that story as far as the specifics go. I always assumed it was more illustrative than literal. But yeah, my Integra had better quality hardware than my W123 did.
Interesting story. Surprised about the W123 hardware though, I would have thought such things didn't get much better than a W123.
@@verdict1163 they really don’t get much better than the W123. That’s the thing: The W123 had excellent hardware. But the Honda’s was a little bit better.
I agree the EPS is numb, but properly set up (for SCCA ST classing) S2000s and ND2s are some of the best driving experiences to be found. Seating position is more like a spec racer than upright VWs Jason's used to, but fair point that Honda should have added tilt/telescoping wheel to accommodate wider range of body geometries. Hoping Derek & Jason get more seat time in various mildly-sorted S2000s and ND2s so they can compare against the '86 twins and E30 M3 and an early Elan in a proper ICONS episode covering spicy 4-cylinder, RWD sports cars with approachable limits.
As for your pearl-clutching "snap oversteer" hyperbole on '00-'03 (AP1) S2000s (and early '91-'92 MKII MR2 Turbos before they changed their geometry), a bit of rear toe-in tames that. Proper alignment + revised springs/dampers, + a tune that boost midrange by engaging VTEC at 4K, not 6) + a high-flow cat, + 255 RE-71R setup F/R = SUBLIME experience from chassis, powertrain, ergonomics, styling. Perfect for early morning sorties through the twisties, and still easy on the wallet in the grand scheme of things.
So basically all you have to do to make it a great driving experience is make a host of changes that modify basically every every system on the car well beyond OEM, and then it becomes ideal. Got it.
Your aversion to proven, thoughtful enhancements of a given platform may mean you drive cars like the GT4RS, Z06, T.50… that aren’t compromised in stock form. The rest of us peasants who tweak our nineties-designed S2Ks, NDs and 86 hoopties are trying to unleash their potential (vs. what the platforms’ cost cutters nixed in dev). Depending on the car, a few tweaks can balance the handling, improve powerband / throttle response, and transform it from "meh" (my AP2 when it was stock) to grin-inducing "wow. (coin-flip on whether I choose it vs. our 987.2 CS). SCCA National results (and PAX index, IYKYK) show the minimally modified classes (aka “Street”) for S2K/ND/86 cars run slower times than versions prepped for Street Touring, Street Prepared, and Prepared (increasing levels of modification / decreasing level of survivability on rough pavement). The ST class prep allows no truly invasive surgery (changing internal engine parts, revising camber curves, changing suspension pickup points, etc.) that you allude to ("modify basically every system of the car well beyond OEM"), so the core elements are there, just enhanced like Derek mentioned in his preference of the NSX Type R's calibration vs. regular NSX. YMMV.
These guys evaluate cars on their factory setups because that’s the only standard to judge. Of course you can correct for deficiencies but at that point you are talking about a different car.
I owned an Ap1 s2k for about 13 months and was using it as a track car, averaging twice a month, the chassis is so twitchie and the steering not only has zero feel but is incredibly sensitive. Honestly it was stressful to drive I never really felt like I could push it past 7/10s. I ended up binning it into a wall at Sonoma raceway trying to rotate the car on throttle. I was pissed at myself and the car but I was also relieved I would never have to drive it again. This was one of the most disappointing experiences of my life because the s2k was my hero car, on paper it was everything someone could want in a fun car, I just don't think it was executed correctly. I also have had a chance to drive the ITR and NSX and I wasn't in love with the NSX either, similar to the s2k I would never feel comfortable driving it at speeds and also like the s2k on the street it was rather boring to drive because I wouldn't feel comfortable pushing either of them. The ITR on the other hand is such a joy to drive, sure it may not be as fast but man I wish I could afford one now but at their current prices for a relatively decent example I just can't justify/afford one. I have been looking at FL5 CTRs for a while now but the dealer markups are terrible, 20k markup should be illegal, I believe the NSX had the same problem when it came out in the 90s, massive markup kills enthusiast cars. As for the new NSX I think people were expecting a raw experience, basically a cheaper version of a GT3 and what we got was technological gimmick car that was as expensive. I am sure if the New NSX was far cheaper it would have had more buyers even not being the raw car people were expecting.
Fix in GTI is dogbone mount and caster kit for the front
starts at 50:22 (with a brief mention at 17:45)
Where's the link to the Citroën race???
ua-cam.com/video/fumF1qDiIWg/v-deo.html&
Apparently you can switch out the integra damper control module into the civic to fix the ride
Love listening to you you guys talk cars and it was great meeting Derek at Radwood last week. I wish I could have found Jason during the AMA because I'd ask him to pick my next rad era car. Only issue is I'm all over the place...mk2 VW 16V? 4th Gen LS F body? Porsche Boxter? 944? AHHHHH too many choices!!!!
Those choices are nothing alike, I think you need to figure out what driving you’re doing. Do you have lots of tight roads? Then go VW MK2. Big highways? Get some power.
Thank you for bringing up that quintessential Honda - white with red badges and seats - is something cool in its own right. I love the nsx when I think about it as a jdm tuner type car now that it's older, and it can be thought of as sitting at a pinnacle of a particular branch of that tree.
I got a short drive in a B18C5 Integra Type-R when I went to Australia many years ago, so it was still pretty fresh (~50k miles) and had Spoon headers and full exhaust. Cam change is at 5700 I'm pretty sure and the engine personality and sound change is nuts. Geared short so gave the sensation of speed though it actually wasn't that fast, but really composed chassis and accurate steering, though I found the feel wooly. Also a real tin can of a car lol, not a highway cruiser! No experience with the F20 but I find the K20s to be really shrill and dentist drilley to the ear near the 8k redline, otherwise great motors though.
100% Agree on the Honda product planning snafu... They made some dumb decisions. I'd take the Civic, delete the wing, add the tune, exhaust, and suspensions settings from the Integra and you've got a winner. Maybe the sound system from the Integra too based on the description by Jason.
I’m glad Jason has finally accepted the true best sounding straight six from the cbx.
Video starts at 17:48.
You’re welcome.
Thanks
Clap for the sychronization!
For heaven's sake, get Derek in a GR86/BRZ first. That's (potentially) an episode right there.
There is a sequence to disable the traction and stability on the Type S, it’s just a pain.
The real trick with generators is to get one that runs on propane. Don’t have to worry about gas getting stale. Don’t have to worry about cleaning carburetors. makes a little less power than it does on gas, but a reasonable compromise, in my opinion.
I believe someone makes a kit to convert your Honda generator to run on propane, Mr. budget Sandler.
@44:27 the dead steering feel was because Honda intentionally designed to have 0 kingpin offset as they have no power steering so it's easier to park.
Yeah another rational decision to rule out the fun for the sake of usability...
Senna had a NSX here in Portugal, there's photos of it.
I hate my 2001 civic. Hate is a strong word but I mean it!
I love the snubbing of “non-automotive” motorcycles but complete conjecture on electrical power distribution methods. If such snobbery was removed, you could have added the RC211V 5 cylinder bike to the mix. If missed that discussion my bad! I needed some background noise today.
You guys should have Streten on the podcast!
Go up a size on the #Main Jet in the Carb on your Generator
Omg... I had a chance to buy a 2024 Integra Type-s manual today. White and red interior.. Drove it! and loved it! Made me want to trade my STI 2021 for it.. But for 20K markup. I'd rather pay off the little debt i had... Ughh..
Im deciding between acura ITS or CTR..going ITS .. just can't do the Honda wing.. and think acura looks better ,audio, suspension for daily etc... on a track I'd rather have the ctr... but I don't get to track as much as I did when j was younger
love the pod, your politics is leyland, you have to do the japanese jump, you know how it is
I was disappointed that you guys never got around to talking about the CR-V. Maybe a Revelations episode?
Off topic but should I consider a W124 260E for a daily driver? I'm new to any Mercedes, but like the look of this era of Mercs. I'd love your opinions @TheCarmudgeonShow :)
Honda's v-twins are my favorite Honda engine, just happens to be on their bikes lol
Two thoughts on the NSX: first, using the foreign motoring press as evidence the NSX was average is somewhat laughable, they are famously euro-centric. Of course they are going to say a Porsche/Ferrari is better, because they always dismiss anything that isn’t European. I don’t think this is indicative of anything other than their own bias. And when you have two more people who grew up on Euro cars…
Second, the design brief on the NSX was never to beat Ferrari at its own game, it was to be a Ferrari you could drive daily. Jason views cars like the NSX on how well they do on a one hour Sunday blast. It’s not going to win there. But the NSX’s premise was “what if I trade 10% of the passion away for 90% more daily usability?” If you use an NSX only for Sunday morning fun runs, you’re missing the point; the point was to use the NSX every day and have fun with it every day rather than driving your boring sedan 6 days a week and your Italian on Sundays. A little less fun, way more often.
This might be a weird thing to ask, but could it be possible to turn down the bass in Jasons voice? I often listen to the podcast in my car, and with all the low frequency road noise Jasons voice just disappears. And then I crank the radio up until the speakers rattle just to hear him and then Dereks voice is too loud :D. Adjusting the bass myself just then ruins Dereks voice and in general isnt very pleasant to listen to. (please dont hate me for this)
I agree, compression on the audio please!
I’ve been meaning to say something similar for months. Audio needs more compression and roll off the lows.
Is this show actually subsidized by Hagerty?
On the Civic/Integra, it's about what you value the most. I don't value the Civic seats as very important versus I very highly value the sound system, sound deadening, better exhaust sound, and softer suspension settings in the Integra while I hate the Civic wing.
The irony about the NSX and Ohio is that I see more supercars here than anywhere else I have been except California. I've seen everything from an EB110 3 weeks ago to a Koenigsegg Agera and tons of McLarens and Ferraris. McLarens seem to be just as popular as R8s near me though.
Weird other motors are a nice sideline conversation. Not every episode, but once in a while a talk about ghetto rigging snowmobiles, or generators or what have you is welcome.
Now I understand why you dislike the S2K. You haven’t driven it at limit and its limit behavior is what makes it magic. Handling is trial by fire. You have to like oversteery knife edge cars to like it. But so good when you get it right. Would love for you guys to drive mine if so inclined. I’m local.
Yes the Type R is dreamy, but it's 68000 € in Europe. That is ridiculous.
I think the NSX is the most distilled-looking supercar, ever. If that’s boring… oh wait, I knew I was boring already 😅
You can swich out the Civic Type R damper module for the Integra Type S and have the Integra ride quality. No need to program it or something like VW or Ford cars have to do. Its a steaight forward parts change plug & play. Honda simplicity.
“It’s okay to be a whore”
-Jason Cammisa
Addendum to never meet your heroes: never listen to Jason and Derek talk about your heroes.
I've heard honda civic type R is a global car. Apparently some countries have exhaust sound regulations. While Type S is a US market only, which they're free to do whatever they want with the exhaust.
I know you guys are not fans of V8 era Ferraris but fact is, I saw a couple of shots of the 355 in the NSX video and I couldn't stop drooling.
Let alone the noise. The 355 is a terrible car yet (in concept) it's the essence of what a supercar should be as an experience.
Clarkson did liken this to the mistress anecdote (article is called "Clarkson on: His Other Half" where his XJR that he dailied was towed away again and he had to use the Ferrari and he imagined what life would be like if he did try that. Quentin Wilson (an old Top Gear presenter) wanted him to sell it because it lost about 20k pounds in 4 years of ownership. Bonkers rationally but to me it's the essence of what I think supercar buyers of that era were chasing; lightning in a bottle.
That's what the 355 promised, anyway.
"And I especially don't want to sell it after last night. Coming back from Hampshire up the A34, I lumbered up the Ridgeway behind a truck at 40mph, cursing our need to have fresh fruit in the supermarkets every morning. But then, he pulled over and as I crested the brow, all of England was laid before me, a patchwork of yellow and green turned orange by the setting sun.
Best of all, though, I could see the road snaking off into the distance and there wasn't a thing on it. Nothing.
So I'm sorry, but I whacked it into second, floored it and just kept right on going until I was flat-out in sixth.
At this kind of speed, the Ferrari 355 becomes so much more than a collection of parts made by the lowest bidder. It becomes alive."
I personally don't see how a NSX could possibly compare but actually bang on, now retrospectively the NSX was to a generation of people who lusted after it the same situation the F355 was.
On the Civic having the muffled exhaust etc I think it is because it is designed for the Japanese market noise regs.
Love my FL5 Type R but the new Integra Type S is equally great and the better dd. To me they are both compelling choices.
What did worse - the old NSX or the new NSX? (relative to sales expectations)
Surely the new one, like they said it was abysmal
@@carsaregood911 I was slow to get through the full episode. They did go over it. It's a shame because it could have been better or sooner.
16° C and raining in my bit of the UK. So not everywhere on fire.
1:02:31 Come out to Ohio and I’ll let you borrow my car for the weekend. Not that coming to Ohio is worth that.
My experience with the S2000 was... underwhelming. I drove an AP2 S2000 CR and loved everything but the power band. It only pulls between like 6500-8500 rpm. It's also undrivable on SoCal roads. It was nice at about 7/10ths in the twisties, but at the limit it just felt like any pebble or crunchy leaf was going to upset the car. It felt over sprung.
Bring your Honda to Action Sport & Power Equipment in Santa Rosa. They've worked on my Honda generators (2) and Honda mowers for over 20 years. They *will* fix your generator. They are the real deal.
After watching this, I am rebadging my lawnmower with Acura logo & VTEC DOHC. Honda Fanboy of the 90s here...
Exactly what said, civic type r looks more mature and sleek. Type s is great but too busy and looks very domestic like Cadillac.
I would still take the FL5 feels way more special looks nicer my opinion.