My frustration with Tekken 8 Devil Jin, explained.
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- We are 2 months into Tekken 8 now and my opinion on Devil Jin has drastically changed. I explain in the video what changed and what especially upsets me about this character currently!
Catch me on Twitch / momodvj
Also posting content on twitter: / momo_dawg
Hey people, by no means is this video supposed to be downplaying Devil Jin to the point of no return. The message I'm trying to convey here is more about questionable balancing choices (which result in the "just hellsweep lol" meta that I despise) than Devil Jin being "weak" (which he never will be so long as he has an electric and a launching sweep). I just personally think Devil Jin is not the "boss character" everyone is making him out to be, doesn't mean he's not right outside of the top 5 for me and has the potential to cause a lot of damage, albeit not very consistently in tournaments.
My proposal to balancing him would've been this assuming we revert all current nerfs:
-MC1 chip damage reduced to 6, blockstun shortened so walking it becomes possible after uf1 oB. Speed and damage untouched to keep MC oki intact
-CD4,1+2 heat only (makes the sweep more predictable due to being on a timer and thus more interesting to play the heat situation out rather than "just hold b")
-heatsmash tracking nerfed to become susceptible to SWL
-Reimplement his T7 jab and df1,2
This way cd4,4 becomes very viable and one of the strongest lows again while not making it too obnoxious to eat due to the sweep not launching outside of heat. I have no clue how strong or weak Devil Jin would become with these changes, but at the very least he'd become more consistent and "just hellsweep" won't be your only gameplan. Keep in mind that the current top 5 is bound to get nerfed, so Devil Jin would become stronger relatively just because of other characters getting nerfed.
Thanks for reading!
Saddest video on UA-cam 😢
STFU momo, he still top tier in most tier list, You talking about panic move? have you seen kazuya? and you complain
you also complaining range? does kazuya has range? even his ff2 feels it doesnt have enough range to hit most of the time. How about you try playing kazuya.
People get so mad that mishimas exist, but they don't seem to realize that if they're getting bopped by a mishima player its likely because the mishima player has played hundreds of hours to become that skilled with a Mishima. Reddit and twitch especially seem to be really tilted by the existence of good mishima players. I beat a twitch streamer with 110 viewers yesterday while playing Devil Jin. The streamer apparently has a lot of bushin characters, but she was just playing unga bunga Reina. She was never not pushing attack buttons . . .so I started countering her unga bunga with DJs back 3 and ended up winning the match. Of course the comments were saying things like "that's the type of Devil Jin to come in and ruin your day." "ape devil jin." "The Devil Jin keeps spamming that kick move because he has no defense" - when in reality the Reina player was just an over-aggressive player and paid the price for playing that way. This game clearly rewards people for playing like shit so you kind of have to embrace it to some degree yourself. Its annoying that you can't mention that you play "a mishima" becuase people get their panties in a wad, but will happily defend king, alisa, azucena, lars, dragonuv, etc.
When I play DJ against my friends Lars I can't do any hellsweeps. He reacts to 99% of them no matter how random. The range nerf makes this far worse as throwing out a FAST hellsweep is extremely high risk because they whiff so easily. I can play 40 matches in a row with him, never using a hellsweep then throw out a completely random one hellsweep at a time in which I would have done something else and he will block it for a free followup. It just isn't worth it 90% of the time. Compound this with the fact that in blue+ ranks my hellsweeps get blocked more than 50% of the time even if random . . .it becomes pretty difficult to do much with DJ. The best option seems to be to trick them out and mix them up with CD1 UF, but occasionally you'll get players that react. . . on top of that DJs mids are . . .mid in most situations. People like to talk about demon paw, but that move is pretty risky against any player with a tiny bit of knowledge even if you keep trying to spam it into the heat engager.
Why do you think MC1 needs to be nerfed in this way? Was there some nerf to MC1 prior that I forgot about? Right now it gets jabbed out or sidestepped reliably, but obviously MC2,2 will beat these options.
I think the heatsmash tracking nerf idea is a good start for his heatsmash, but I almost wish they would just nerf the range or something. Are there other characters that have easily sidesteppable heat smash moves? Its nice to have the tool, but the fact that the game basically STOPS when heat is active for DJ is really crappy. I almost feel like they need to remove it from the game and completely re-create a new one.
Do you mind elaborating on the T7 jab and df1,2? I didn't play 7, but his jab and df1,2 feel like they did in T6 for me. . . it has been 10+ years since I played t6.
@@derekr3895 MC1 was nerfed on speed by a frame, damage reduced from 25 to 20 and chip damage reduced from 10 to 6
T7 jab had more range and df1 was -3/+8 and tracked to his left reliably, df1,2 was a safe mid,mid NCC string that was only -5
I told people
I’ve played mishimas for over ten years and devil Jin was my main throughout tekken 7
I can’t have a -6 df1 and his df2 is nerfed
His neutral tools and pokes aren’t there
Without heat he would be a low tier character
It's frustrating seeing the comments of people saying "devil jin is so busted, why does he need mcr" They don't ever explain why he's busted or what he does that is busted apart from psycho crusher. It's like they are only repeating what they see others say because it's a popular opinion without questioning/researching it themselves.
This is exactly how I feel.
you hit it right on the nail. they are just a bunch of sheep
His effective range and safe moves are annoying, he’s definitely annoying to fight, the rush down style of tekken 8 makes this style very effective
He’s definitely better then kazuya probably still top tier
I find him annoying overall and people really more on gimmicks rather than skill, I’d rather fight him then hoawrang and lili right now
Or they go with “he has launching hellsweep and electric” which equals broken some how
Idiots who cannot play Devil Jin always have this idea of DJ being busted. He is far from it LMAO. He is very strong not busted.
(Low level comment)
Blue rank dvj here, I stopped doing the launching hellsweep (unless I secured a kill or floor/wallbreak) because getting hit by 1 heat engager or heat state chip pressure just recovered all that grey health. Super annoying to throw all that work and risk out the window. I’ve bad better success with cd44 but my opp’s respect me way less, not sure if others are the same but yea…
Hoping in the april balance patch we get a little something even if it means trading the heat smash for it
I would absolutely trade the heat smash for better fundamental tool for sure good point
yes, i do not care if they nerf the distance and tracking of the heatsmash, i just want his poking game to “exist”, or at least be as potent as it was in T7. from my T7 and T8 (albeit am just shinryu) experience, it gets super tough super quickly to survive close-up pressure in T8 compared to T7
I was always confused for people saying devil jin top tier , devil jin gameplay didn't changed that much , its mostly same as kazuya , always go for 50/50 makes him very predectible , I still think jin and now reina are much more stronger than devil jin bcs their mixeups and pokes are much more safe and give a lot of pressure
Because those are mostly scrubs but even pro players like king Jae say devil Jin is OP because of heat. It seems heat has made everyone ignore that DVj lacks a lot outside of a mechanic that lasts for 10 seconds
i always thought the same too, i always found jin to be overall stronger
@@hands-ongaming7180 calling jae a pro player is a gross overstatement
@@hands-ongaming7180 King Jae is not a pro lmao.
@@RazorIsEpic well he’s using his platform to crap on DVJ regardless
Man thank you momo dog! People always look at me sideways when i say devil jins not as braindead op as they think he is 😅
I'm betting on Devil Jin only getting nerf after nerf in the near future so it's not gonna get any better. And the complaining will probably not stop before he is nerfed into the ground.
I just want his T7 fundamenal tools back so we can play a poke based playstyle again.
His poking shit was too good
Df1,2ff. Etc etc
@@doomdesire3460 And now most of it is completely gone or nerfed so hard into the ground that either it is not used at all or it is only used because you have no other choice.
I'm not saying we should give him S tier poking but he could at least have more than he got now. I also want them to nerf his heat smash tracking and maybe tune down some of his other stuff to compensate.
@FlokiTech what did you expect. After his overperfomance it's only natural he will eventually get worse. Being top tier for 4 games straight called for it.
You should be thankfull he haven't go leroy treatment. Or t5 jin
@@dronnovik95 devil Jin op at the end of t7? Nani?!
@@FlokiTech heat smash I fckin hate it
Too annoying
So in a nutshell. In the highest level of play, when Devil Jin's gimmicks become close to useless, he is left with only very few tools in neutral to use. Interesting take, Momo!
Bro! He's a pro player, so obviously he's gonna give a take that represents his level of play. Also MoMo never been a downplayer, even in T7 When dvj was gutted... MoMo was the only one who said nope! Dvj is still viable and here's how. So please.
@@Yokoso-kj7ij So he has massive credibility. And these are valid points - if a character is that bad in high level play, it needs sorting as inherently people improve at the game overtime naturally he will becomes worser and worser due to him having weaker neutral options as people counter his mcr and play aorund his heat gimmicks. Just because it's only happening at high level doesn't mean it doesn't exist lol, it shows you that there is an issue that will bleed into normal play as people become more familiar and we can nip it in the bud before it becomes an issue.
Not even highest level, the guys I play around Tekken King and high blue ranks don't fall for any shit. I basically have to play without knowledge checks.
@LeiZehn-zs5xn Hold on there detective, I'm not a dvj main. I'm just being fair. And I know it went over your head, but Momo is a pro player, and he's talking from his perspective. We're not talking about you getting rolled by DVJ.
@@LeiZehn-zs5xn Also no need to be disrespectful. Also why is it always an attack on Mishima/DVJ like were some kind of toxic race of players. We here are actually trying to be objective as best we can, I don't know who's offended you that mains DVJ but don't take it out on all of us. I personally want all characters to be viable and be top, and the same goes for my main. Attacking people when they're just trying to give their opinion is not the way bro. Were human beings just like you with likes and dislikes. Don't need to take it out on everyone who mains DVJ because you disagree with some things. Make some fair criticism with valid evidence/points to support it, like the video above, not just how you feel.
Feel like dvj can’t chip hard in heat which helps a lot in intermediate
Thanks for making this video cause it's exactly how I'm feeling about the character. He has 0 poking, his counter hits are very bad compared to others and really no scary mids to actually 50/50 an opponent in the neutral. Heat smash IS op but once that gets nerfed (and it will for sure) I don't see devil Jin even being in A tier honestly. If some day my electric isn't 100% on point or my mix up guesses are bad i straight up lose every game. Thanks again for the video cause honestly I'm kinda tired of getting ki charged for using an actually not that strong character
@@TheUnique69able yeah but still is a mid, homing, full screen attack, so it's undeniably powerful. That's what i meant
@@TheUnique69able Its extremely OP. Blocking is the ONLY option. Its so easy to catch people with this move. The amount of people who will activate heat when devil jin has his is pretty high even around bushin/tekken king. They can't block immediately after a heat activation with the cancel so DJs heat move is pretty much guaranteed in this situation.
I thought everyone was saying S tier top 3 top 5. Is the honeymoon phase over ?
Everyone is still saying that.
@@FlokiTech everyone but DJ mains lol
@@callanharvey6264 MainManSwe has Devil Jin as his second main and he is the biggest Tekken youtuber and he spends a lot of time talking about how op braindead he thinks Devil Jin is.
@@FlokiTechDidnt MM just lower his perception of DJ?
@@FlokiTech well yeh if anything he overrates DJ a little, but he just has strong opinions in general. Obviously not every DJ main downplays him, it's just a bit of a stereotype.
Devil Jins very linear and stiff. He lacks fast and effective pokes. Lows aren't the best and quite risky.
So people shouldn't be complaining , I say this as a DJ player since T5
having kazuya above feng as a heat character is crazy
I've been saying this multiple times, we are quite literally still playing a Tekken 5 character in an aggressive "mashy" game. DJ STILL didn't get any set of string mixups, only stuck with his 50/50s while you have the other mishimas having not only 50/50s but strings as well that will also lead to stances. I finally subscribed to you because i finally saw someone go DJ in a tournament while EVERY one was saying "oh dj is top 5/10" yet no one had picked him for a tourney at all until you came up. Knee obviously went dj against you since it's basically just a mirror match, if you hadn't he would've gone someone else 100%. Those pro players love to ignore that he's also a risky af character to play in high ranks.
I felt this. He lacks good mid launchers. And his wr2 launcher is NOT easy or consistent for us mere mortals at low/mid level
Kazuya:First time?
Um, you do not want every characters to have every tools. Having iWS2 is good enough.
I feel that CD iWS is a bit easier now. I seem to get it so much more consistently in T8
@@redthalos exactly this players are spoiled brat. Look at fucking kazuya. No hopekick, no panick moves. What does he has basic tekken
Yeah but still ws2 is -12 while every other character basically has a safe mid launcher
I said it since the beginning, they gave him useless gimmicks and removed his poking. I really miss DF2, DF1 and UF4 with knockdown . Jin on the other hand is OP.
14:55 I've been noticing so many things like this lately. There are some situations where a character is stronger not only during heat like the devs want, but also POST heat. Hit animations rob you of potential damage. Kazuya gets robbed of wallsplats with ff2 during heat since he is forced into the animation. Deliberately having to use a worse move to avoid going into heat is also giving me headaches mid match. It all feels very counter intuitive. Heat engagers as they are now feel like something that will be heavily reworked. The most simple solution would be having to hold your heat button during the move to go into heat, or hold forward. Just something to give players more choice. I knew this first year of tekken 8 would be chaotic, but things like this should have been caught during the CNT and CBT.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, MomoDog!
I always had so much trouble fighting Devil Jin in T7, but so far I am not convinced of the craze about him in T8 -- same with Jun. Coincidentally, the grievances are the Heat Smash for both.
After watching the video, despite not maiming Devil Jin myself, I agree that they took away stuff that made him interesting and that there were other ways they couple have nerfed him.
They should give DVJ a hellsweep cancel or a charged hellsweep to mess with timing and make it more threatening. I'm blocking tf outta most DVJs hellsweep I play now coz I realised he is nothing without hellsweep and they get frustrated vs turtles
That just means the dvj players u playin against are ass.
since d1 i thought that his hell sweap is worse then it was in t7 just becouse of combo route, t7 hs was good only becouse you could get an wallsplat or gr8 oki with wall carry
T7 hellsweep was way more broken
Still better than the hellsweep 1+2 uf3 vortex at wall
I think devil jin's biggest strength is mostly rarity, he's kinda rare on the red ranks which is the most populated rank, and differently than other rare characters like shaheen he hits very hard, but at the same time, devil jin doesn't have that many combos especially when almost all his launchers are kinda meh, very slow, none are safe on block except electric, and electric is a high, hellsweep was a good launcher, too bad everyone got too used to it plus nerf, I often have to rely on short combos and single moves that deal high damage to win.
Momo. Your voice is important. If there isn’t a voice to counter the haters, then DVJ is destined to be nerfed and/or forgotten. You have to be vocal since your opinion is valuable in t8
Coz 90% of the players are noobs
@@TheUnique69able tmm doesnt even think devil jin is that strong anymore either
He with the fishes on the ground now
Yeah all the new moves dont fit in this game at all. If anything they shouldve made him more similar to reina and gave him actual pressure. His lack of strings makes him really unfun
As a Kazuya main i do not agree on " strongest heat" argument because legit kazuya's heat is strong on paper, but goes on so fast, most of the time you either hellsweep once, maybe you get the correct 50/50 and your heat is gone afterward.
I agree that db1,2 with heat dash becomes a really strong tool, but we also have to consider he still has a shit heat smash which in this game is VERY important cause they break armor and keep your momentum.
Also he doesn't have a complete throwgame which in this game, again, is really strong.
Personally i would say that if Kaz had a middle heat smash instead of that low he would probably be stronger than DJ
Dj right now might not have the strongest mids, but he still has a better neutral overall, mourning crow has counterplay but is still relevant, and laser scraper is still a thing
DJ has the same problem though. If you don't just wait the heat out EVERY heat move DJ has is extremely slow and pretty much impossible to hit with with the exception of MC heat grab. Heat grab, CD1+2,1+2, and UF1+2,1+2 all take 100% of his heat gauge. . .the only benefit the non-grab attacks get is the fact that they're now safe for DJ if the opponent blocks - WHICH THEY WILL. Other characters and enter heat then use their heat moves 3-4 times if they don't heatsmash.
Kazuya is better than devil jin. Imo
@@forgive.them. I've seen a lot of people say that after this video, however
Everyone can have their own opinion of course, i just don't think it is, and i explained why in my comment.
Of course you can still think Kaz is stronger
He doesnt have safe mid launch guys
There's cd3. But it's kinda ass.
Most characters don't. Having a Safe Mid-hitting Launcher is uncommon and is for a very privileged few. And the Generic Tekken Down Forward 2 doesn't catch Moves that Whiff and Recover in Crouch. It's balanced like that for a reason.
@@kylefields3951 claudio and kazuya , jin have the best safe mid launchers
Keep up the great work Momo!
'High combo damage is a blessing and a curse' - fucking what? It's unambiguously good.
The loss of his original df1 just neuters the character
Qudans in Evo Japan was kinda aged bad, he was struggling a lot with DVJ and didn't get too far with him. The top 5 characters did kinda just dumpster the character. Drag having a better 50/50 than DVJ as well as xiaoyu existing and feng being the character he still is after the new patch is a little rediculous.
I find the matchup of Xiaoyu to be the hardest against xiaoyu. Her evsaive stances duck underneath db1+2 which is an insanely crucial move to dvj's setups that make him strong right now. I wish she didn't have insane evasiveness like this.
Super strong up to orange ranks, red above is when I started noticing his many weaknesses:
-trash mids
- using mourning crow to pressure when opponent has rage = instantly lose the round
- weak pokes
- pressure game not as scary compared to other characters, opponents in red ranks above will block most of your stuff bcos they know ur mid is nothing so they almost always can anticipate your hellsweep coming
- very weak to side step and jabs
- very punishable panic moves
Im forced to play turtle 80% of the time at higher ranks
Not saying he’s not strong, but this character requires high work and knowledge to play effectively. Picked up king and kazuya after reaching purple rank with dvj and the amount of stress i received while playing them in higher ranks is so much lesser than playing with dvj lol
I would trade removing mourning crow entirely, cd1+2, b1+2 and bring back the old uf4 knockdown property and we’re good
i think most would agree there is minimal or no change in skill level from orange to red LMAO
Here are my proposed balance changes for DVJ. I don’t play at the highest levels of play so I’m curious about your thoughts:
1. WS 4, 4 being made -13 instead of instant death -16 like HS.
2. CD 1+2 5 frames faster
3. The 2 from DF 1,2 being given armor and CH launch status (maybe not CH status but definitely armor). Would give people a reason to duck after being hit by DF 1 and lead to mixup. Alternatively he could instead be given the option to go into MC from DF 1 (not sure how plus DF1 is on hit but it would need to be adjusted I’m sure).
4. DF 2 being given its T5 properties where it can lead to a CD mixup by holding DF. MC would come out from holding F. Frames (namely CH frames) adjusted in accordance with how strong the move would have become. Otherwise it might be a bit too much.
5. Having his MC3 being turned into a low but being launch punishable. It would solve the problem of his MC1 because given how MC 3 retracts they need to guess between 1 and 3 now. If they want to keep the same level of risk/reward then they can make MC 2, 2 launch punishable (though I would personally like if MC 2 was made -11 or at the most -12).
6. Being able to block after starting up MC. People say it is possible but I can’t do it. Either it’s a me problem (might be) or it’s just not there. But being able to block even a RA as long as you are neutral or plus while doing the move. Alternatively, introducing a grab from stance which mirrors his vanilla Tekken 7 RA. Would be a nice callback and a welcomed addition to the stance and check people that mash 1 when going into stance with plus frames. Obviously at negative frames you will get beaten out. A grab could replace the aforementioned change of MC 3 being made into a low. It would also get really scary in heat as now he has both a breakable and non-breakable grab in heat. Would be nice.
7. 1+2 cancels into MC by holding F.
Nerf his heat smash’s tracking and distance traveled (the only thing people are really complaining about), the cost of his heat moves (something I don’t see people talking about), add some of the changes above, and I think he would be fine.
IMO:
1. WS4,4 - the first hit is 11 frames and safe on block. It sucks you can't really hit confirm to the second hit, but the fact that its 11 frames makes it a good move IMO. Even if it were reduced to 13 like DF4 it would probably still be OK given the scenarios in which you should be using it. It can also come out of crouch dash if your joystick is neutral - the same cannot be said about CD1 or CD2. You need to crouch dash cancel in order to get WS2 from a crouch dash, which is punishable on block and extremely difficult to execute.
2. What would this accomplish? CD1+2 is somewhat useless - its range is poor. Its mostly good for the wakeup/hellsweep mixup.
3. I don't think you can duck either of the moves in DF 1,2? They're both mids aren't they?
4. Are you saying this to help encourage people to fish for the counterhit with DF2?
5. DJ already gets a ton of mixup opportunity from MC as it is. I'm not sure if there is a re-actable tell between MC1 and MC3, but this seems OP IMO.
6. Lars can block instantly out of his stances so why can't DJ?
7. Super cool idea.
Delete his heat smash and restart
😂
@@derekr3895 1. The mixup from what I understand is mixing WS 4, 4 combined with HS out of WD. But dying from the mid version being blocked is a bit much since you can’t hit confirm it. -13 and reduced damage sure (maybe add some gray health like Kazuya), but not -16 lol.
2. CD 1+2 is useful at the wall to bound your opponent if they try to step. Making it faster would make it viable in neutral (here’s hoping). FF 4 has bad tracking and poor combo utility so I think it would be a welcome change.
3. DF 1, 2 is mid high
4. Yes for that reason and to have the move’s original use returned to it. It has the same animation but is missing the original, intended utility.
5. MC3 can be reacted to and blocked leaving you at -9. It might as well be useless because it can be jabbed out of like MC1. Sure you can do MC 2, 2 but both hits are risky (the second 2 leaving you open to launch). It already looks like a low move to begin with, they may as well go all the way with it.
6. Yes Lars can do that but I haven’t been able to block after going into MC. Even if I’m on plus and holding b I still get hit. So it might just be me (someone can confirm I am wrong, which is good) or I think it should be possible to block in the stance moving forward.
7. No, keep Heat Smash. It just needs nerfs to distance traveled and tracking. If they do this combined with buffing his MC then it will be a nice change of balance imo.
@@The_Splendidsafe You don't mix HS with ws4,4, ws4,4 is a punish and a damn good one. It's now +4 on hit, previously it was -4 (Kazuya functionally has the same move but his is still -4 on hit). You mix it with the obnoxious ff2 if you want to stay safe, or ws2 which is a mid launcher and only -12 iirc.
@@LegendaryPlank Yes you do mix it with HS at the wall. If the opponent eats two of them waiting for a HS that’s almost 70 damage of non recoverable life. Add that with a well placed FF2 or FF4 and you’re easily netting around 130-140 damage. It’s like what Momo said, they want DVJ to be more HS centric. This is why he was essentially given a WS hellsweep. Amazing as a punish and amazing as a mixup, just...a bit too risky imo. -13 since it doesn’t lead to combo.
@@The_Splendidsafe Why would you mix with ws44 at the wall and risk being launched when you could just use ff2 which wallsplats and is safe? Honestly, I've never seen a DJ use ws44 as mixup.
I never thought he was top 5 just cause hes still too fundamentals based/honest (outside of heat) but yea I have him as the least reliable sort of S-tier character so like near the end of the top 10
the insane cheesy shit that you HAVE to respect on top of superior tekken fundamentals characters like Xiaoyu/Feng/Jun/Drag/King have is just very noticeable
They never know if they never hands on to use dvj, this is old things imo since tekken 7
I’ve made it to purple ranks with Devil Jin and I gotta say the only three things I use that have been effective always is 112, hellsweep, and the heat smash. I wouldn’t mind nerfing cd1+2 at the wall if it was faster maybe at 18 frames. 2f fuzzy at least makes it a lot harder to do so
Doing nothing when DJ is in heat is frustrating for both players. It would make everyone happy to shift that power out.
I said it from THE BEGINING !!! DJ is not that good ! He lacks a good mid to threaten (like uf4 KD for example), has no close range tools whatsoever (1 and df1 are garbage) and is quite linear.
The smash is very good but that's it. With MCr you mix more yourself than the opponent
He asks A TON of execution with iws2 which is punishable
On your comment about DVJ's advantage over Kazuya being range.... some tidbit: Kazuya FF+2 and Hellsweep has longer reach than DVJ
ff2 yes , hellsweep no, ff2 also slower and more steppable kinda.
not true
@@alexj4573yes true. Kaz ff2 hits from about range 4.1 where as DJ hits from 4.0. Jin actually hits from 4.5 lol.
@@user-wg1gd5gg7s golly, gee, my oh my. i guess dj really IS worse than kazuya
@@alexj4573 Nope lol. That's called a strawman. OP spoke about ff2 and HS range specifically (which =/= Kaz being a better overall char) and you said not true. I correct you on at least the ff2 which I've done research on, but I'd imagine the same is true for HS after the nerf on DJ range.
Once again, ff2 and HS being slightly better in range =/= Kaz is a better character. In fact, Kaz's ff2 is i16f start up as opposed to DJ's i15f. Jin is i14f of course lol. Jin is the best mishima in T8 IMO and Kaz is the weakest.
Dvj is not top tier in high level tekken, he is really hard to use and heat is trash.
see momo got beaten up badly in korea back to tekken emperor or lower
other than his heat smash he's pretty okay I guess, felt that way since day one
and its a shame they removed mourning crow oki, seemed pretty cool
Interesting video Momo, what do you think about uf4 and ws2 ? You didn't speak about those or i missed it
I don't see a reason to use uf4 over ff2 unless I really need the lowcrush, ws2 remains strong as usual
@@Momo-Dog Doesn't cd uf4 make his hellsweep 50/50 unfuzziable, compared to cd 1+2 1+2? 18f hell sweep and 18f uf4, and you can heat dash to convert off uf4 launch.
@@Momo-Dogws2 doesnt track ssl anymore, its linear now
Yeah I started this game with devil jin but stopped having fun shortly after.
His heat smash is insane in lower ranks because people whiff all over the place but the higher you get the less that matters.
Also felt like CD1+2 hitting was so rare, feels like it's too easily fuzzy guarded/slow.
Devil Jin outside of heat and mc mixups is just not impressive. -6 df1 mid check forcing u to use df4,4 potentially to be even more minus losing your turn. Laser scaper losing its pseudo tracking, and ws1,2 punishment forcing you into mc stance is just meh. Not to mention the universal d4 nerf being -15. Devil Jin is overrated only because of his heat. When tekken 8 came out, heat was everyones priority because it was the new mechanic. But once people started realizing such mechanics, glaring weaknesses of certain characters began to show. Devil jin is only strong because of his heat smash and heat state mixups. Remove it and hes forced to ungga bungga hellsweep just to win. They need to make his mid moves more reliable such df1 to -3 or -4 instead.
ws1,2 into MC is so god damned annoying. I seem to recall people always saying DJ was overpowered, but I never felt that way. I agree completely that his mids are MID, but hasn't that pretty much always been his schtick?
@@derekr3895 yes it has but he at least had his old uf4 and df1,2 to compensate for it. Not to mention, dvj couldve been given new strings or options to check his opponents but hes practically the same if not worse compared to s4 dvj in t7.
His heat smash and mode is just what bothers me the most,aside from that he's not that bad to go against. A little character/matchup knowledge goes a long way
Edit: Problem in this game that heat turns these characters absolutely fucking nuts. Without it,some of em are are just basically average Joe's with nothing really really offer
Also I like cd 4 4, but for some reason I have a hard time getting ppl to respect it on hit, even tho its +4 and they are in crouched I'm confused
df1 or laser scraper after usually locks people down. I dont have this issue
People mash even more in this game, if you got plus frames, just go for a mid frame trap until they start respecting, then go for your fun stuff
Df12 will 100% stop them eventually
Just subscribed. Thank you for the content!
Devil Jin had me heated at first but 30 mins in training mode made me realize he is the fairest of the top tiers.
An aside but I was wondering if you knew a bit about locals in Korea. The place I've gone to in Seoul barely had people show up.
its to late now to take it back now sadly
Starting to see that everyone has 1 or 2 low launchers for decent damage CH or not(good lows otherwise). DJ has only 1 and that got nerfed lol
Two days ago you was playing against a player name Mashen8 with kazuya when beat him with a wall comho i think i heard some familiar words from you * Insha Allah* just wanted to confirm are you also a Muslim?
Yeah, your first take on the nerfs was massive copium😅.
I want that HS damage and range back ! We depend on it more than anyone else.
This
100% agree, ive been going against more people that know the matchup well, and ive been needing to be a little more creative with my setups lol still a cool ass character, wont stop me from maining him
You know, itd be cool if they gave back old twin lancer, rising 14, or just buff his fundy tools then he wouldnt need these new moves+oki, but thatd be kinda anti tekken 8 to make a char play closer to an older self
How do we get that outfit?
momodog how do you cancel db1+2 into mourning crow ?
let go of directional input (db) while still holding 1+2 then hold forward
Like everything you say makes sense, but you are talking at the highest level of play.
For the average player a good DJ is a nightmare to play against. So yeah we probably won't see him in tournaments as much as we first thought but it won't stop him being insane on ladder.
That's true!
Have to understand when you see problems at top level play this is like an indicator to what will happen in normal play as people get better.
People will inevitably improve as time goes on on this just as pros do. So I think it's bad practice to just leave something that makes someone weak because "well people are too dumb to deal with it yet so don't worry about it, it's still good".
Which is why characters that are top tier have a poke game to fall back on when they can't gimmick you anymore.
@@Zeridium what makes you think that they didn't design the character with these weaknesses in mind in the first place? They are not leaving it, if that was their intent for countering DJ all along?
Also while I agree that as the game ages and players experience more matches the standard of play improves and counterplay as a result, but that is totally subjective to the match-up and move in question.
I don't see, in six months time, every red rank and above side stepping and ducking Azucenas WR 3, 2 and demoting her to B tier anytime soon for example 😜
@@jamiebuyers I mean they did design it that way. And the point that's been made my momo dog and I'm starting to believe myself , is it's a design that's not the most interesting for both the opponent and the player - relying on how many hellsweeps can you hit to win the game.
We'd rather it be a utility option not his major win condition. I'd personally like to be able to poke more with DJ and have his launching hellsweep tied to only be available (the laser follow up) in heat and then return his normal hellsweep to 37-38. And you can make it burn some heat if he decides to commit to the launch.
So without heat, you can't hellsweeps launch (make it use a third of the bar so you have to choose between his power mid heat or power hellsweeps launch and then end maybe if you have enough left with a heat smash or perhaps you burn it all and then you're back to normal DJ no hellsweeps launch and playing a poke/cd mix up character with some MCR gimmicks.
Wouldn't you find that better not being launched by hellsweeps at all times?
@@Zeridium I think he is perfectly fine as he is, I don't play DJ so I'm not in a position to comment on how to improve him but I have faced plenty of them so I think he will remain just as strong on the ladder. The point I'm making is yes this is now a weakness with the character but is the sky falling and is he suddenly B Tier for the average player and should you drop him because of that? Absolutely not!
For someone like momo yes this is significant but he's one of the best in the world competing at tournament level. That's a whole different dimension because you have to think about what will be the tournament meta not ladder. Even with this DJ will be just fine for climbing to GoD as most characters are because on ladder it comes down to who is piloting and how good they are as a player not these niche weaknesses.
Except people who play Dragunov and Xiaoyu of course, but fuck those guys!! 🤣
I understand this, Momo
This is modern Tekken for you, DJ gameplan will probably stay like this they want DJ to be a "live and die by the mix"
and its strong but highly toxic for you and more for your opponent
This is why I dislike launching hellsweep design cause you can't balance shit around it
DJ was busted in T5, T7 due to him having pokes and mixups AND range control with electric, FF2
which made it really hard to keep him out or to get close to him making him excellent at all ranges
in T6 they tried to balance him by making his HS a bt CH launcher only and the higher reward option was the mid WS2
it gave him full combo in that game
these changes balanced him to a good extent but still he was very well rounded without huge flaws
Right now if T8 is going to continue with toxic and overbuffed designs then
DJ CD1+2 should become faster and make the HS 1+2 follow-up heat only like you said with dmg back to pre nerf
this should make DJ a 50/50 and range control monster but his poking should remain on the weak side
if you want actual balancing then get rid of HS 1+2 follow-up entirely and buff poking a little bit (of course nerfing stuff like U1 into MC 22 being natural on normal hit or FF4 being a CH launcher in exchange for that)
and maybe buff some mid options like BF23 giving wall splat
obvious nerf to heat smash and maybe some combos nerf and we'll have to see how it turns out to be
I'm trying to think what does Devil Jin have that Kazuya doesn't. And I can't make up that many things even though everyone says Kazuya is way weaker.
for starters dj backdash is a lot better.
Imo devil jin is only better than kazuya because has better 14-16 frame punishments, launching hellsweep, and a slightly better tracking electric (negligible really). Kazuya has better poking tools, safe mid mid string, 13 frame ws punish, and tracking moves. Kazuya’s main drawback is his heat utility being not as effective as devil jins. Overrall, Kazuya is the better character. Kazuya has better poking tools but devil jin is only slightly better because of his heat smash and heat utility.
I vs a blue rank while I was in shinryu, The defence this dude had was 99 I couldn’t do anything I got destroyed
My opinion Devil Jin was better in T7
yea i feel from the start the hellsweep is the only way and makes me sad.
But if it forces your opponent to do nothing, doesn't that mean it's insanely strong??
Doesn't that mean it's still extremely useful?
Press a button=opponent stops playing
strong and uninteractive, hence why the changes I proposed in my pinned comment
yes and after they stop playing what do you do? apply your mix which you were probably going to do anyway it always boils down to mix and if you guess wrong (on offense) get blown up the risk reward for the obvious hellsweeps isnt skewed in your favor. its not like we have kazuyas ff3 on our mixups so the damage if they just crouch isnt winning games. anytime devil jin wins its by making the correct plays in the neutral consistently and you are expected to heavily outplay your opponent especially with electrics. Devil jin relies on his electric in his gameplan more than the other mishimas which also makes things more difficult.
@@Jayden-zq6fj What are you even arguing? Go watch ANY DJ players in T8. Not many are using electrics in a consistent fashion. Many players know how to react to electrics . . .they are very situational and can easily be punished if you're too egregious with them.
How did we even get to electrics from DJs heat smash? There's no way you're even a half decent DJ player for how hard you're complaining about a nerf IDEA - something that doesn't even exist. The fact that DJs heat smash needs a nerf is 100% objective. Its broken, it breaks the game, it gives DJ a huge advantage that nearly no other character in the cast has. You basically throw your controller on the ground, let DJ fondle your balls and asshole while spitting in your mouth, then after he has his way you can start playing again. This isn't normal.
I might go back to Jin ngl
Neva switching up on my bro
I've seen this from the start way before the nerf
And i play with controller
I love playing with him but god is he suffering to play with
Having to position and hit electrics and doing difficult combos that other characters can do in 3 buttons
DJ is strong, but I think we have been ranking him too high. I don't think he deserves any nerfs, maybe even buffs to certain moves like u4 cause it can't mixup.
He has a weaker 50/50 compared to Kaz, has less oki, d1+2 of Kaz and Jin d2 are better than DJ db2, and his heat is good; but after watching TMM Kaz is definitely better in heat.
I think he might be the worst Mishima, but still a great character with clearer weaknesses and limitations than the others.
Nah man him flying around is bs and feels so non standard
Fgc and online community are a small amount of people compared to rest of world
The entitlement is honestly a little insane.
The fact that we’re not getting a +8 situation consistently after a 25 dmg knockdown 10f hitconfirmable poke, shouldn’t not be lamented like this.
High combo damage being a blessing and a curse is one of the wildest statements. Even when contrasting it with his standing damage (which is not like he’s not getting any).
Mentioning electric like it’s an afterthought of a move in neutral is also twisted.
Taking everything Koreans say as gospel has prevented players time and time again from discovering alternative playstyles. You already know in 6 months there will be a Pakistani dvj player popping up out of nowhere, dominating in different ways.
Yeah he's very biased.
That situation was not consistent, it was a rock paper scissors that carried little risk for neither the opponent nor the attacker, making it a fun tool to have. Why change 112 KND to perfectly function with MC when you're gonna remove the oki entirely anyway? Just reminded me of how they removed all spike combos/jumpover tech universally instead of just fixing the problem at hand (see: Akuma tech catch in T7, Jun/Jack etc. spike combos in T8)
I added a pinned comment so people can get behind what I'm trying to say here more.
Kazuya in heat is ro ridiculous.
you and perfect god fist need to run some sets and chat on this topic. its funny because both of you think your chars arent good anymore. thats just normal man. people are going to adapt as they get more experience. you are wayyyy better than me (im fujin with dvj used to main steve) so your opinion is at the very high levels. I think for more of the population DVJ is considered BROKEN. Perfect god fist is pissed at kaz in this game. he still does nasty damage off of ch df2 but he feels that kaz is underwhelming as well and has to work his ass off compared to the cast.
I 2nd to what u said. He's not all that like people glazed him bout
Hey man I don't know if you read random comments but I just wanted to say that I really like how optimized you are with your character even tho I am not a devil jin player I still like to watch.
I hope you stick to playing shaheen since I picked him as my main in this game and do some cool videos on him like you do for devil jin. :)
Shaheen time?
For the level I play at, it doesn't really matter how good DVJ really is, though I can say that I've been hearing since forever that he's OP but never seen people picking him at a tournament when they're in a pickle. Even back in 7: "Ah, bugger, my Kunimitsu didn't work. I guess I better pull out my Devil Jin. That will show them". Never happened. And it doesn't happen here either.
There are more accessible picks, whether they're stronger or not not being that relevant.
Even with that said, at levels outside high, DVJ is quite the pest. So for my experience, I'm ok with how he is and I'm glad with the fact that, given how the rest of the game is, I'm not bothering with competition.
Thanks for the video.
I'm tired of having to work hard for a win and getting talked down to for it. I'm also tired of getting easy wins against unga-bunga players and getting talked down to for it. When you play mishimas you can't win - people automatically assume they're just broken characters, but ignore king, azucena, dragonuv, alisa, etc . . . until its convenient for them.
lmao becareful he might get nerfed like what THE MAIN MAN did to kazuya now, where's kazuya again? YES LOW TIER
Play BRYAN FURY and tell me how good it feels,there is no unseable LOW that u will get launched for!,u wanna steal a round?,just do 9 hatchet kicks...,there is no PANIC MOVE you would get launched for,you have no move from range 4.5 that you feel bad/risky using,better yet the heat smash is so useless u dont have to worry about it!,you gonna love it considering the way u feel bout devil jin.
I been on the fence about playing that dude more, this post sold me with 100% facts. built in taunts mid-combo is very much my shit, finna spam 1+2 and TUT TUT TUT TUT 😂
bryan is only launchable if he whiffs,its liberating for me,they even made his qcf1 only -14 in t8@@danknstein6504
lol orbital is a very real panic move
Brian has a godlike safe panic move wtf you mean
You are right, now people know DJ's counter and it is really not that fun, hell sweep reliability is so so much if the opponent is playing defensively, he doesn't even have fast counter hit launcher and the ones that he has (the meaningful) is hella punishable on block. No other low than hellsweep. Momo's analysis is on point
Are you German ?
Wry true. His heat smash does low damage
Come on, you are downplaying... D Jin is S tier, most players agree. Psycho-whatever needs to be removed. Same with launching hell sweep, we don't need that anymore
I wish people would just read the pinned comment before commenting first
Generic anti-DJ comment. We have heard this 1400 times and clearly you cannot read. 100% guaranted you do not play DJ at any considerable level to be considered relevant to any degree.
One of the characters that got hit the hardest? 😂
“This character is ass!” Yeah well, playing against the best players in the world will make you feel that way, momo.
That was not my sentiment after having played against the Koreans. My opinion was more formed by talking about the character with the best players in the world, not me playing against them.
yes but also if you analyze the gameplay after the matches and theorize the problems still remain in his gameplan
Complaining 1,1,2 not giving oki is crazy.
You didn't understand my message. MC oki is what differentiated Devil Jin from Kazuya"s "walk up and mix" oki, it was different and thus fun to use. Now it's pretty much exactly like Kazuya's, run up and mix. MC oki made Devil Jin's 112 unique while not making it busted.
1,1,2 gives oki it always has.
@@Momo-Dog Dodging low reversal kick is strong. I don't think it was meant to be like this.
I feel like DJ has a better identity as "Mishima Jin" then just "Flying Angel with random bs"
I think it should always be closer to T3 Jin.
I don’t get the yapping
Dvj’s heat COMPLETELY shuts down neutral
It straight up deletes it from match. And that is on top of all of his other tools
This crying is pointless
The thing you complaining despite dj being S tier, We kazuya mains live with it even tho we didn't we adjusted.
I can't believe this dude is complaining when DJ is top tier or S tier in most of top players tier list.
DVJ is S tier. DVJ mains are just spoiled with having him be Top 1 - Top 3 every game
This the one
Law in t8 is as much dumb if not more, not even dss needed lol
Just press f, enjoy ws4 f +7 loops with 0 execution
Df44 -14 instead of 15
B3 from -19 to -13
B2 1 new move so you cant even low parry as os.
111 10 f heat engager
Slide with bs oki and in heat nuchakus are 16/17f mid nh launchers safe
Please
@@thelegion4799 B3 is just a side kick that sends the opponent flying far to the ground. It's not a launcher, why would it be -19 in the first place? -13 is reasonable. It will be punished a similar move by all the players have in their movelist.
1,1,1 is not 10 frames it's a minus 12 frame heat engager. Also very punishable on Block. And if you look at high level play it's not even the main move used to access heat because most the time it gets blocked and punished. It's an unsafe string
The slide is very punishable into a full juggle launch on both block and low parry. It's nothing compared to Devil Jin's low sweep. It does a small amount of damage and doesnt convert to a juggle. It's a decent risk to reward oki tool and low pressure tool. That's it, but getting hit by it doesn't end the match like getting hit by a lot of DVJ moves. Overall Law
Back 2,1 is a mid, mid. And it's -14. It's not even a low so I don't know why you mention low parry.
You either don't even know the movelist that you're complaining about or are just making stuff up. Everything you've said is just wrong.
Law is a decent character overall. That's it. But you have to take major risk and catch your opponent off guard with a lot of high risk high reward moves to get real success with him. Which is pretty fair overall.
@@thelegion4799B3 is just a side kick that sends the opponent flying far to the ground. It's not a launcher, why would it be -19 in the first place? -13 is reasonable. It will be punished a similar move by all the players have in their movelist.
1,1,1 is not 10 frames it's a minus 12 frame heat engager. Also very punishable on Block. And if you look at high level play it's not even the main move used to access heat because most the time it gets blocked and punished. It's an unsafe string
B2,1 is not a low. It's a mid, mid that's minus -14. Launch punishable by a lot of players, so I don't know why you mention low parry when it doesn't even apply to this move. You either don't know the movelist that you are complaining about, or you are just making stuff up
His slide is a risky unsafe move that is launch punishable on both low parry and block. And it does small damage. It's a good oki tool but that's it. It doesn't compare to DVJs low sweep that is quick and hard to react to and gives a full juggle for big damage.
Law is a decent character. He has a lot of risk to reward moves, and overall you have to catch your opponent off guard with the variety of his moveset to have any success. Overall he's a decent character overall. That's it
ok why is he s tier?
This is cope of the highest level, yes hes very hard in t8 but hes def top 10 for 99.9% of all matches played. I do believe you when you say top eastern player cans counter play him, regardless hell be nerfed with the rest of the top tiers for the overall health of the game.
nerfs are inevitable
I wouldn't say it's cope he is just playing a different game than most of us. When you don't know everything about the characters and how to play against them and what to look for to punish ALL the characters in the game feel strong af. It's not until you learn from people who play the character that you start to see the holes because you know what their struggles are.
Nerfs are to help the MASS audience deal with things not to help the toppest of the top players in a majority of cases.
get good?
He is top 1 devil Jin on ranked and was in Korea learning from the best, I don't think you can get a more qualified opinion
I've been saying that for over a month, and a lot of people even known ones are ptsd from DvJ from T7 before season 4, or just deluded to accept fact that currently DvJ is weakest Mishima, either him or Kazuya, whoever made Tier list and puts Devil Jin above Jin who has everhthing except Range on some moves, And Reina are just delusional. Top 5- easily Xiao Dragunov Feng Azucena, then as "backup" or top 10 you got Lars, King, Nina and Reina and ofc Jun and Jin.
In addition Devil Jin even in heat is only strong as Knowledge/Mashing check, but if you play the game on high level this character is literal garbage compared to Reina and Jin.
Translation: you got owned by the Koreans and now you FEEL Devil Jin is not top-tier.
Kazuya is bottom 10. You lost all credibility after saying he’s better than Devil Jin who is absolutely top-tier. Get a hold of your emotions dude.
Read the pinned comment, have a nice day!
Damn momo you fell off
these downplay vids get old quickly
Cant believe Deviljin main are complaining about a broken character that got minor nerfs... now you have to think during matches
Did you even watch the video ?
Watch MainMans latest stream, he put DJ in a tier below Kazuya now and says Kazuya is weaker than Kazuya in every way besides his heat smash.
The gaslighting honeymoon phase is finally over and bad players can't get away with these bad excuses anymore calling DJ broken when in reality they just have terrible anti mishima.
And it's not just mms, look at Anakin and other pros also coming out with this opinion.
@@FlokiTech that says a lot since mainmanSWE has been a DVj hater since t7
Come on, this is a rich people's problem. DJ still does half bar out of hellsweep and the oki is a HEAT pressure. Don't get me wrong, what you say is obviously right (sweep should start on heat only, give him back his T7 df12, and Heat Smash should be very weak to SWL), but the way tghings are he is still top 3 *relative* to other chars
Not even close to half a bar. Tekken players really do be coping huh? Lars has some fast lows into guarantee followups that are harder to block that do just as much if not more damage. It isn't a DJ exclusive issue, but DJs can be far greater risk compared to some of the rest of the cast.
Skill issue. Of course things will be hard going against the best players in the world.
ok but theorize how your character can win situations post game with unlimited time and the problems are still there in his gameplan.
No way I am hearing this dude downplay devil jin. And goes to an extent to compare with kazuya.
Once a Noctis main, always a Noctis main. Just be yourself and switch to Victor.
Weirdo take when I spent 3 years upplaying Noctis when noone else believe in him just for him to turn out to be top 10 which I had been saying long before he was picked up by CBM
@@Momo-Dog doesn't change the fact that you are downplaying a literal raid boss.
All you did was get to a higher rank while the game is new and is struggling to keep up now. Know your place.
@@maxrider747 Read the pinned comment, have a nice day. Don't ever tell me to "know my place" ever again✌
@@Momo-Dog know your place.
@@maxrider747 cult behavior
what a pointless video
thanks for the click :]
As someone who never uses electric, you don’t have the right to talk about what moves are good vs what moves are bad
He’s the number 1 devil Jin in Europe 😂😂😂🤦🏽
@@hands-ongaming7180 and? He doesn’t use a key move. His rank says more about the character than it does about the player
@@Tx3JorgeX it really doesn’t but keep thinking that.
@@Tx3JorgeXthe audacity lol, also ewgf has its own specific uses instead of throwing it randomly in the neutral and hope the opponent runs through it and get launched, especially at the level of competitiveness Momo is playing on. People constantly fish for ewgf and HS against the dvj matchup so u have to be extremely unpredictable to play such a character in an optimal way.
@@aephyn_ nobody said it should be used in the way you’re saying. It definitely has uses and momo doesn’t use it even to whiff punish.
There is ntg interesting left to do when he is in heat🫠