I think they could make this game at least 5x more fun, if they changed all heat smashes to be negative on block. Losing because your opponent mashed a safe on block, tracking, super move that garauntees a free 50/50 on BLOCK is not fun.
And if that did not do it, you still have to deal with random rage arts after that, that are better compared to tekken 7 , cause -15 always and neutral jabs are way more beaten by rage art.
To be fair Strive made most of the cast more defensive and slow by slowing air-dashing, making mixups punishable, and making safe project oki less common and rarely looping back into its self. I just wish that developers stopped trying to homogenize the fighting game genre into the same moderate blend of aggression and defense. Not every fighting game needs to be a midrange fighting game like Streetfighter.
@@sofaking9404imagine being so elitist you can't have a decent conversation without being condescending when someone is willing to engage with you in discussion, so you put down their argument all bc you didn't specify which guilty gear game(s) you were referring to. If you don't read this to the end, then you implicitly admit that it's a fact that you have such a low reading and comprehension level you can't process more than one scentence at a time
I only recently got back into Tekken at the start of 2023 with Tekken 7. Jumping into Tekken 8, I find myself getting way more irritated when playing in ranked. The top characters feel so overtuned it drives me up the wall. The reason I went back to Tekken was to get away from Guilty Gear Strive's overtuned characters only to run into that design philosophy again.
@@awesomereviews1561Kof 15 is dead. 10 minutes to find a match and when you find it will be 150+ ms against a dude who's been playing kof since 98 and he'll destroy you
@@junior1388666naw you trippin, at master if you aren't a dlc character that no one understands yet....the base roster at master is Deejay, Juri, Ken, Zangeif(he's bad at neutral but his punish damage Is broken enough for people to risk it), chun li(takes extreme amount of effort to use and i know because her and ryu were my mains), Luke and cammy. If you aren't one of those, then good luck.
LOL man gave an OPINION, and everyone went ballistic like that episode on SpongeBob of everyone running around in a fire 😂😂😂. Topic wise? Why tf is this even a hot topic/ hot take? Like legitimately LMFAO. The game has to be the most aggressive fighting game in the world currently, not even Guilty Gear is this gd aggressive, and the game was conceptualized and conceived on having a highly difficult fighting game. Just saying, not a hot take
@@RealMikeHollow LOL yea ig so, people really gotta stop putting blinders on tho. What he said was very basic and just a fact. Arguing Tekken 8 ISNT the most aggressive fighting game, is to legit just lie lol.
@@hartfantom I mean it's _not_ the most aggressive fighting game. It is the most aggressive Tekken yes but fighting game? No definitely not lol. You do still have a lot more defensive and evasive options than you do in many other games.
The devs basically punishing players for defending and having a good read on their opponent. They were like "Oh you think you can block? Here's a safe 50-50 for you and also chip damage in case you guess correctly!"
How tf game punished you for a good read on 50/50? Low parry, reversal, hyrer armour, moves that reduce your hitbox, jumps and sidesteps. Block is the safest option and should have some downsides.
I had a lot of fun with Tekken 8 until red ranks and I realized spamming with high tier characters got me into purple ranks faster than playing proper with my main. The game is just mind numbingly aggressive.
I think Tekken didn't need to increase aggressiveness, but rather reduce passivity. They are two waaay different things. By increasing aggressiveness too much, you send tactics and maneuvers to waste. For example Law is based on feints, but you can't feint if you have the opponent spamming attacks over you 100% of the time. They just broke the game. That's why the game is unbalanced right now, but I believe it still can be fixed.
@@johnmacoI wouldn’t even call it aggressiveness. Just straight cheese. How is it that a move that should be negative on block still allows my opponent to get the same whole ass combo off before I can even get my punish off. I’ve found myself saying “how the hell did they get that off” or “how the hell did they hit me” way more times than previous games.
This is a common thing. Once a series pivots into an easier game style to bring in casual/new players the veteran of the series find that they are out of place. Veteran point out legitimate issue but are quickly rebuffed by those casual/new players since they can finally compete with the higher skill players of the past. Then as those casual/new player continue to play the game and evolve into veteran players they start to mirror the same complaints of the veterans of the past. Then the next game will come out and the cycle will continue.
@euomu are u serious. Sf has Been around almost 40 years tekken 30 years marvel nearly 30 years. Sf2 one generation 3s another sf4 another... haha this has to be a joke. Mvc2 alone has had several resurgence each with its on generation of players. In fact Justin Wong is part of the second generation of mvc2 players lol.
@@sugoi9680So your argument is only one set of people ever played tekken in the entire existence of the franchise? Over the course of those 30 years You have at least 3 generations of people in general. But to you they only count as one set of people. If this is your point or understanding then there is no point in having any further discussion. Please think about this though. Each iteration of a game will have both new and old players. That is already two generations. Arlsan is considered a vet but he started playing tekken with tekken 6. That's 5 iterations before he even started, and by tekken 8 he is considered a veteran from the old generation of the game....
Played Tekken for 27 yrs, uninstalled T8 two weeks ago, not looking back. This is the first time ive ever done that to a Tekken game, it is the first time in 27 years that i dont WANT to play Tekken. Thats enough points proven about Tekken 8 for me. Shame tho, love the franchise.
you haven't played for 27 years nonstop, that statement means nothing, Maybe your brain has just decided to find a stubborn corner and refuses to move beacuse ''I'm right'' yet people will keep playing beyond your time on the game, to be THAT mad over it instead of having fun where you can seems to me like you've just become jaded and it's not just the game. All the older games ahd annoying things about them as well
@@Redcloudsrocks intesive playing from T2 - T5, other than that casual.. soo yea, thats that.. Also, its supose to get better over time, not the other way around, but have fun with what you have. Im just getteng the f out of the Tekken franschise. Say what you want, what im experiencing is only up to me, and if i decide it is trash, it is. If you like it, then good on ya.
@@TheSmongo I predicted It the moment i Saw the "we're gonna encourage agressiveness over defense" bs explanation for the devs...im just surprised the didnt made ragearts + on block...
Both the "Git Gud" players and the" I'm going to enjoy the game anyway I don't care what you say" players are the most annoying thing about this entire conversation honestly
The classic "this game is good for a month before I start losing" players are always the most annoying by default with every fighting game to be released
@@aledantih6524 So once people had time with the game and see the flaws and are past the honeymoon stage of new game/ new experiences, that's when people want to complain, when they actually have had time with the game and are able to look at it with a more critical eye, that's what you're annoyed about, or are you annoyed that people weren't complaining when it was new so they are a bunch of hypocrites, either way that's a very wrong mentality, that ignores time put into the game, patch updates, burnout, or the game not having much to it
Greedy doesn't equal wanting to stay afloat. The industry right now has very little room for expensive, super niche titles and even with the more accessible nature of T8 it's still already pretty niche. Gatekeeping kills games and genres.
@@aledantih6524and tekken held out on not doing that for the longest. Probably longer than any fighter. Need to cut em some slack frfr. Whole lotta tears over this brand new game. The veterans had thier time to understand the game and its mechanics. Hiding combos and frame data for the people that actually learned n wanted thier secrets of thier playing styles kept. But them secrets are washed up now. Tekken is more transparent and less gate keepy. And I honestly just think people are just mad about that subconsciously more than anything.
@@aledantih6524 gatekeeping retains the identity and soul of these games and genres. Ever notice how when anything go mainstream, it goes to sht? Notice how all modern fg does not have the soul of any of the old ones. In style, in identity, in community, in difficulty. Just easy popcorn entertainment. Pretty lights without substance. This is the sacrifice made for accessibility. It goes deep. Accessibility dilutes everything. Its like watching fast and furious. You literally just said the money matters in the end without saying it outright. Which is exactly what these companies want.
@@lostvayne9146 I don't notice that because it's not there, it's just something nostalgia addicts and doomers have tricked themselves into believing. These games still have plenty of heart, soul and yes, substance. Also fighting games are way less mainstream even now than they were before.
Tekken 7 never made me feel mentally exhausted. I used to love death matching people endlessly and i felt like i could really tell the difference between a good player and a bad one, but in T8, i feel like its mash or get mashed on. I loved learning frame data, match-ups, interactions. I'm back to blue rank like i was in T7, but i feel like I'm in the equivalent of T7 red ranks even though im in like the 3-5% of the playerbase. I was expecting to pour another couple thousand hours in T8, but I'm already playing other shit instead. Just waiting on patches to bring me back.
I mean that's because T7 has no mechanics besides rage art and people can block all day, maybe you're just jaded are looking too hard for ''skill or bad/good players''
When Arslan said it people got mad and called him washed. Now Knee is saying it and people agree. These Pakistani players are at least 3 month ahead of schedule lol.
I think the idea of chip damage is fine, but in Tekken 8 it's more like chunk damage. 2-3 hits from some "chip" damage moves can take a quarter of your health. Being punished _that_ much for being defensive is crazy.
It just feels like a title where if you block you lose. Defense is so inconsistent and you don’t even really get rewarded for it with like, low parry combos or what have you.
SF4 era was the Renaissance era, sfv/tekken 7 was the comeback mechanic/blockstun & wait era... and now we're in the power fantasy era, Capcom/Namco doing anything to get as many people playing as possible. Full circle, fighters fell into obscurity later into the 3D era, we didn't realize how important 2D style fighting was. Not until SF4/MK9.
I agree with him, defense isn't an option anymore. If you play against a character like Dragonov or Azucena, and get frame trapped. Either you get out or you die, and while they have powerful systems that teach you how to punish, through the replay feature. Currently any slow character that gets trapped easily, becomes dead in the water. From what i have seen it isn't about momentum anymore, the opponent can just say nope, you aren't allowed to play. It isn't that heat is bad, that chip is bad, or anything like that. You can shut down your opponent with frame traps, and Reading what they are going to do doesn't matter. When they have get out of jail free cards that take 50-80% of your hp for free. Oh you punished, but it wasn't a launcher and i just so happen to not be in a combo. Heat smash into 50/50 launcher either way guess right or die. Isn't very fun.
@@maxlopez7671tekken 7 played closer to traditional tekken . 8 on the other hand has traded movement and defense for endless mashing I can tell you never played tekken prior to 7😂
Kind of off topic, but bringing up Tekken 4, I really... REALLY hope they increase the volume of Tekken 4's music in T8. T7 had the same issue, so if you put a T4 track on a stage, you can barely hear it. And that is a damn shame considering T4's soundtrack is 10/10
This is what happens when you make Tekken full-blown scrub friendly, rather than focus on a fleshed tutorial system that offers rewards in motion. Ie you receive items whenever you do technical stuff. Ie you sidestep punish an opponent 5 times, you receive neyo from the matrix outfit etc.
The problem with chip damage is it forces people to pressure with the same moves (especially when heat is activated) and the same flowcharts get used without further experimentation. This benefits some characters way more than others because they have large chip damage tied to key pressure moves and others don't.
This is what happens when you try to please everyone and pick profits instead of playtesting and creating a quality game. Tekken 8 is an absolute mess and people lying abs stating its good game are only doing it to save face.
totally agree...and also when they try so hard to imitate a mechanic from 2d fighting games. This heat system is just a rip off of SFV's V System without a defensive option. lol.
Tekken 8 devs fail to understand why people would do things like play smash bros with items and finishers OFF on a stage with no obstacles (final destination). Rage and Heat feel like items added to Tekken that noone really wanted.
people say that tekken 8 has good sales, so it must be good. I dont think so, we have learnt in this franchise that the sequel rides the hype of the previous game. Which was tekken 7, the best-selling tekken game. My point is that just because tekken 8 sold great doesnt mean its a good/balanced game
@Disconnect350 stop talking nonsense you were just a bad player in Tekken 7 and probably the other games before it too no one needs someone like you in the community or in the game to make it better just go away and play your mk1 get in your ass
@Disconnect350 That's a straight fucking lie lmfao. Tekken 8 is bad. It's for scrub players. Everyone is given a handicapped. The difference between 8 and 7 is it feels like theres training wheels on the game for Tekken 8 and for Tekken 7 I had free side step capabilities in 7. The side step is ass in 8, and I play Xaioyu. I destroy most people I fight. But when I get beaten by people I know I shouldn't get beat by I start getting pissed. Telling me that I need to get good in tekken 8 is like telling me to get good in happy wheels. The game favors scrubs, which means if you like playing it, you favor instant gratification, when skill set is better for long term gratification. Society is already on a heavy increase of ADHD retards. I hate people defending the population on why they're so dumb and incapable. The only reason I find myself playing it is to see if I can figure out how to have fun in it. Out of the... 325 hours I've put into tekken 8 and the... 500+ I put into tekken 7, I should be beating 90% of the people I face when I hop on. My win rate is 60% in ranked. It should be 90%
I guess I can understand how the veteran Tekken players feel seeing as I had to go through the same feeling with DOA 6. Change is cool and all but sometimes they go a little overboard in One direction and it just leaves it bad Aftertaste
As a mediocre Claudio player, I depend a lot on defense. But some characters just rush me down, i can sidestep, block, duck, etc.., and there is nothing i can do. I feel like they are just pressing buttons nonstop and there is nothing I can do about it. the chip damage is wild. Some matchups feel nearly impossible.
I literally called it when this game first came out. Idk if any of you have played For Honor, but the exact same thing happened over there. They changed the entire combat system to focus aggression and 50/50s over and over and over. Its literally just a guessing game. Theres not much skill expression beyond learning a character's moves.
So true man. When For Honor came out I could see clear skill progression as I continued to play. Everyone in the early seasons playing at higher levels would be untouchable against someone that was new to the game. Defense was vital and parrying and feinting was the way to skill check people. The game used to award defense more than offense. Some people might have called a long match where no one gets hit boring but I actually find it far more satisfying to have an evenly matched clanging of swords with a variety of mixups to try and break their defense rather than the same 3 abusable moves spammed over and over in random order by both players till one of them gets the win.
I played for honor and I disagree If your referring to the CCU. they sped up everything but if you were good, you still bodied people. The things I hated was when they started adding dumb properties to moves like bps light light heavy, where his top heavy would literally track through a vertical plane. Which doesnt make sense. But all the newer heros are braindead and lazy. To help the casuals.
@spooky4223 Bro I used to be a Master's Valkerie. Literally played the game since the beta full no life 😂 the game was very defensive before and had some lame tactics which made PC a snooze fest at high level. Instead of slowly balancing the game to fix these issues AT HIGH LEVEL, they sped it up HEAVILY to the point where a formerly unreactable PK zone is now an average light attack, gave everyone dodge attacks, gave everyone unblockables, and no character has a real identity now because everyone can just mash. It's a guessing game. Older FH had way more skill expression. I haven't touched the game in about a year by now and I guarantee I could hop on, pick Orochi, and free up some people lol
@thehorse5307 THANK YOU!!!!! EXACTLY!!! We think the exact same man. It's a long fight with extreme mind games of feinting. I remember back when Kensei had to feint 3 times to get in a light then start his mixups 😂😂 it was slow but it was sooooo much more interesting to watch because winning felt EARNED
Tekken has been more aggressive since 5 and has only shot up from there, I think there are some things that can be balanced to make just normal blocking more viable but compared to MK1 it’s miles ahead in terms of defense
What I dont like about this is how devs are using 50/50's as the go to method to mitigate fundamental play and even the odds when facing superior opponents. Instead of motivating players to better their gameplay, now everyone gets free 50/50s that will land half of the time no matter how good you are. I went from being amazef at my opponents good plays to being annoyed at bs
I almost think it might be a better idea to get rid of the heat system entirely besides the heat dash. That's actually a useful mechanic in terms of extending combos.
I wonder how much things would change if they just removed chip damage from plus frame attacks… or at least remove all chip damage unless the heat mode is on. Because then chip damage exists only in a specific window of the round.
And this is why I don't play new fighting games anymore. I don't have respect for people no-lifing for a BRAND on the internet like they owe it their lives or something.
I havent even gotten the game but this was my exact worry when i heard T8 was going more aggressive. As someone who has been playing since T1 and i find the more patient and tactile combat feels the best and most authentic
I honestly agree with everything he has said. The game is to aggressive and I swear the fun gets drained when coming across characters that are heavy rushdown and you are forced to block the entire match to where I sometimes put the remote down cuz of the mindless aggression. I wish heat was a defensive option. I’m a defensive player but that’s a fault in this game because you have to be up your opponents face and even when you feel like you are doing more aggression than your opponent you get hit with something that does more damage to you. I really don’t find much fun in the game anymore I’m close to being a flame ruler but I just don’t care anymore when I’m getting forced in to a corner not being able to do anything and utilize my skills while my opponent spams the same move that is 0
Daigo has stated on the FGC Translated Alpha channel: "In my opinion, SF6 is way better than SFV. It's not even comparable." He goes into detail how strong offence and defence is but does think turtling/defence is stronger. And finds the game fun. However this was back when SF6 launched 9 months ago and I don't know what he thinks of the game now since SF6 has evolved quite a bit. But I recommend checking out "How Daigo Feels about Street Fighter 6 So Far" it's a good viewing.
And just to add an important context: for the ones who aren't aware, the truth is that Daigo isn't a big fan of the defense attributes of SF3 and SF4.... he already said that in old translated clips. He prefers more offensive games. His ability to play well those games of strong defense attributes doesn't mean he loves them or at least find that playstyle the best one.
Daigo and Tokido have that similar philosophy to the game, Broski did an interview with Tokido at Red Bull Kumite and he similarly said the game was above SF5. A lot of the Japanese pros love SF6 for it's playstyle, the western pros hate it because they fail to adapt and are used to autopiloting to get results.
I cannot take seriously anyone who suggests that Knee and Arslan are unable to adapt to the game. My very attention to anything they may say disappears. Also because Tekken 8 competitively hasn't even started, what were they supposed to win? Come on
Tekken 8 is more rage inducing than fun, the neutral game is gutted and heat basically killed sidestepping mostly since heat smashes are plus on block and on hit, track on both sides and put you in stance forcing you to guess again even if you play good defense, the chip dmg is absurd
@user-or4ct5ow6b if you didn't like it that's you, but bro is speaking facts right now. A lot of fighting games don't have as much single player content as Tekken 8 does. Tekken force with RPG elements sounds hard asf
I'm part of the "loyal Tekken fanbase" that's left T8 almost 2 months ago. I wasn't losing, rank wasn't hard, but I wasn't having fun. I did not like how I had to play the game. I've been playing fighting games for 20 yrs, and T8 feels like MKX. P.S. RIP is a Namco cheerleader, t's his job, don't take his opinions as genuine.
Bamco is too greedy, creating new game mechanic that is too focused on casual players, i think its because Bamco is too concerned with profits and money. They forget that casual players won't last long, while what makes this game alive are the hardcore players and its community. This method will make the game's lifespan not last as long as the previous 7th series. And i think this is the time for other developers to make fighting games that have a system like the old Tekken game. I am sure it will be successful because it is proven that there is a market that likes it.
@@DrSwazz Warner Archive (not a game company and is a division of Warner Bros) has the exact same problem with the Looney Tunes and other classic films, as hardcore fans are not many enough to sustain the sales alone so they will have to brance out the release and play it save with those releases, while hard core film fans might want all the controversial stuff.
it makes sense honestly considering his play style. i can see where he's coming from. it feels like the guy defending is at so much disadvantage compared to the guy being aggressive because of shit like chip,homing throws.heat ,amount of the moves that forces 50/50 , nerfed backdash . i think chip damage should only be a thing when someone uses heat
Is that not how heat works? From my understanding and playing, I thought chip damage was only awarded when your in heat. Also leading to where you can't die from chip
@@PervySage723 Interesting, do they do chip when you try entering into heat (where sometimes you just don't enter it because it failed) or is it because it has the property of an heat engager that it does chip automatically? If it's the latter it has to be a bug then since they probably applied it assuming you would go into heat anyway.
@@PervySage723 There's also the rare ki charge, which is where the chip damage concept originated in the series back in Tekken 3. However, it's a non-factor especially in comparison to Tekken 8's chip damage options. And while every hit is a counter hit, you can't block in ki charge mode.
I think there’s a great opportunity here to create an Capcom vs SNK style system where you choose your play-style and get buffs nerfs depending on your choices. You want to play old school? You can turn off the new mechanics and get a defense and life buff (or something else) that balances the two play-styles so that they can compete. This would retain new players and casuals while also allowing legacy pros to play real tekken and still get rewarded for it. It would also enhance the game’s meta, making it so all sorts of different ways of fighting would come to the table, making tournaments very exciting to watch.
I came into Tekken as an anime fighter (Guilty Gear Accent Core/Blazeblue) so my playstyle is very rushdown 50/50. But even in those anime fighters there's very strong defense options for that.
Yeah I wish I knew why but trying to block in tekken 8 just feels so mushy. I liked it in tekken 7 where it felt like getting attacked was purely your fault for not blocking where to here I just have no idea why blocking isn't working half the time.
We need that burst mechanic or drive reversal to say GTFO me cause if sidestepping dont work, backdash and low parry are nerfed, you take chip damage from blocking then you might as well just lube up and bend over at the wall instead of trying to defend
it isnt fun. Cause everything has been made liberal. 1 button heat. 1 button rage. Everyone hits like a truck. Im stuck at bushin ranks because of how points are awarded and taken away. Sometimes i win 3 ranks above me and get only 300 points. Sometimes i lose, i lose 500-1000 points for no reason. Wtf is this shit?
I've been playing since Tekken 5. Tekken 8 is not fun. Fast attacks that hit so far. So many 50:50s. Strong power-crushes. Heat. Tracking throws. This doesn't feel like Tekken anymore.
I'm a complete noob in fighting games and i can tell you that the problem is casuals, casuals are ruining videogames, especially fighting games, developers can only see the dollar signs that casuals bring so they will strip the identity of a game away and replace it with anything that appeals to the casual audience, while completely disregarding the dedicated players who supported the franchise for decades. No casuals, you don't get to talk don't on veteran players, you don't have to kiss their boots but you don't get to talk down on them, their opinion is way better than a casual's opinion.
Regardless, it's an absolutely undeniable reality that the modern strategy (actually since the late PS3 and PS4 gen) worked in commercial terms. It's true that the franchises were sustained by the passionate community in the beginning, but it's also true that all franchises became harder to sustain under that old model of management. SF literally died and was buried for almost 10 years with Third Strike. All other franchises like Darkstalkers and MvC died. SNK games died (and the company too), then returned but struggling hardly, and KOF 13 (the best looking 2d fg ever) underperformed and almost killed the company a 2nd time. Tekken struggled around the time of late T6 and Tag2, and SC only deteriorated in popularity since SC3 and struggled very hard particularly in the SC5 time. And DOA also deteriorated after the late 00s, and VF in practical terms died, because it didn't get a true new game since the mid 00s (not very different from new versions of SF2 that continued being made after the 90s). So all active franchises had a struggling phase... And there's also a lot of old franchises that stay dead and buried. So what can we expect from the companies when the games started doing so much better the moment they change the management strategy? Literally all of them sold better than in the past. Worse: the newest versions of each franchise, that opened up even more to the casual public, are doing extremely well. It shows the old school community alone isn't enough to sustain these games. Like it or not, this genre as whole truly cannot afford to continue functioning like in the 90s-00s. There's no way to solve this problem.
@@carlosaugusto9821 i think that the answer is to keep a balance between the casuals and the hard core if (IF) you care about the "soul" of the game, the problem is that we are living in a post mobile gaming world and mobile games are extremely successful, and what kind of players play mobile games? Casuals, so it is natural that companies saw that and immediately started watering at their mouths and changing games to attract casual audiences. So what we are left with is a very destructive trend that will continue to make games worse because the only thing that really matters is money, and I'm sorry but that's not how we got the best games ever made, most had very humble beginnings and were made with passion, money wasn't as much the main objective as it is today. Look at the "yellow paint" in modern games, is that necessary? No, even toddlers can figure out how to play a game, but it's all about laziness. do you know that a lot of successful mobile games are autoplay? like they play themselves... This is the gift of the casual player, and this is what we are witnessing in games, in SF6 we get modern controls, in granblue FVR we get easy inputs, it's because they know people don't like to make an effort to play a game anymore, and it will continue to turn games into worse versions of themselves. Casuals don't care about the essence of a game, the consume and then jump to another game, just like locusts consume and jump to another crop, yes they are many but not for long. This is what happens when you have suits controlling a gaming company instead of a developer with a vision and passion, all the money in the planet is never enough for them. Look at fromsoftware, they don't care about appealing to casuals, at least they don't ruin their vision for that... For now.
Yeah, Majority of games are being made casual/simplified these days, not just fighting games. Games in the 90s and 2000s, there were not many "hand-holding" features, but now theres so many. Games these days are made for everyone, rather than a focused niche
that is just the meta now, its sad. We got devs that i swear probably dont even play video games dumbing down games to appeal to casuals. Happens with all games not just fighting games.
And people wondered why Soul Calibur died, it just catered to the casuals way too much. SC3-6 might as well have been single player games. It just became a make your own anime girl simulator. Like litterally they added rock paper scissors as a mechanic in SC6. It's embarrassing.
I prefer playing tekken old series rather than playing tekken 8, they have changed character movelist, animation and everything which makes tekken to tekken
No, even as a casual player the aggressive playstyle is annoying. It's probably more to be flashy and nice to watch. It's basically made for streamers.
You want to hear something ironic? The developers said that heat was supposedly going to make the game more fast paced and intense. However, how i see it, all heat does is completely slow down the pace of the game. Whenever you or your opponent activates heat in a match, everybody freezes. Both of you are just slowly tiptoeing across the stage just hoping and praying that you don't get sucker punched by an attack that does a ton of damage, track to both sides, and is very advantageous on block. Just look at someone like Devil Jin, Jun, or King for example. When they have heat activated, you literally have to stop dead in your tracks because one wrong move and you will lose 25-50% of your health (or more if there is a wall/floor break/blast). Did I already mention that you cannot sidestep it? By the way, I'm just talking about heat smashes. I haven't even gotten to the other options. You have to be afraid of heat smashes that do all of the things I just mentioned, heat dashes that can either launch for a full combo on hit or be super plus on block and guarantee a mix up, and heat bursts. There's also heat engagers which some are just braindead to theow out. Watch a Mishima match (Kazuya, Jin, Devil Jin, and Reina) and take a shot (or just count (if you're underage)) every time you see someone go for a FF2. I promise you you will be feeling dizzy when the match is over. And dont even get me started on armored heat engagers that are safe. The point is, what was supposed to be a mechanic that would increase and intensify the pace of a fight is instead a mechanic that just slams on the breaks and slow down the pace of a fight to a screeching halt because you or your opponent are afraid of so many things that can literally kill you very easily and has very little to no counterplay. Ironic, isn't it?
As a new player who got addicted to SF6 because of the aggression mechanics, I realize that those mechanics were meant to get me engaged. But I found that quickly in the upper ranks I would be punished much more severely for being monkey brained. Is it not like this in Tekken 8? I’m diamond 3 in sf6 deejay player.
Get rid of Rage Arts. All Heat smashes negative on block. Chip damage only applicable when engaged in heat mode. Side-steps and other defence mechanics need to be buffed considerably. At least 50% of the cast have something about them that is borderline broken, which means they would have to apply so many nerfs it would almost be like designing the game from the ground up. Imo, the game won't ever bein a playable state because the design faults are too central to the game. I'm shocked to say this, but even Mortal Kombat 1 (another bad fighting game) is more balanced! Tekken 8 is the worst game in the franchise, I'd even place Tekken 4 above it.
In bringing up the topic of dumbing a game down to appeal to the casuals and all, I rather they maintain the barrier of entry rather than water it down. In the end, fighting games won't be for everyone, so why dumb the game down for the sake of short term gain at the expense of fun?
In an analogy, this is what I’m hearing: The NBA lowered the net from 10 feet to 8 feet. The tall and skillful players that can do crazy dunks are complaining like: “Basketball is not fun anymore because everyone can dunk now. Even the 5 foot players are driving in and dunking aggressively. It’s so frustrating!” Please add to this analogy if there’s something I don’t understand.
uhhh? im not sure. Its more like this really simple gameplan is being exploited very easily and the game encourages aggression over defense. both are the yin yang of fighting games if that makes sense
@@InTheKitchenWristStirFryhe isn’t wrong though that’s what people are complaining about and Tekken has been easier since 5, also MK1 is a lot worse where defense is non existent, in Tekken it always took more than just blocking to have good defense, you have to learn to side step, parry, duck, learn to read characters and their patterns, and you do have to learn frame data because certain moves will completely shut someone down The real problems I see are surrounding RA and HS and certain moves from characters
@@InTheKitchenWristStirFry You’re saying there’s more “Yang” offense, than “Yin” defense. I think the game now “forces” you to learn the matchups to be good at defense, while casuals can come in and play good offense.
All fighting games aren’t fun anymore… they became too competitive… back when I was young in 2004 I remember having fun fights with friends, bros and friends of friends, and back then we had fun no matter win or lose. But right now people ready to kill you in real life just to get a W… rats, cheese, insults,exploits, cheats, DNFs are going rampant in fighting games… also the gameplay usually favours one or two particular styles out of like 6-8 and that’s why originality vanishes, and everyone is using couple of same fighters and spams same moves, combos…
Tekken 4 is my absolute favorite in single player mode. Two player mode is incredibly janky and sluggish competitively. Unplayable imo. Tekken 3,4,5, forever here
The mechanics of the game are just overwhelming and stressful, losing in this game unlocks another level of salt whereas I was very humble in loss in previous Tekken titles not including Tag 2.
Tag 2 was one of the only ones where I truly believed it was my fault and haven't felt that way in any other Tekken game sense. Tag 2, you can get so good that you could annihilate someone in a matter of 30secs for the full fight.
@@sky-oq5mr I don't understand the reasoning, Tekken 6 and 7 had a neutral game, knowledge check defensive style gameplay loop. Tag 2 was built on the mechanics of 6, the major problem with Tag 2 was the damage which is also a big problem with 8.
@@RationalMinded it was brought up during Tekken 7 as well. We didn't know what we had until those shitty as sequal came out. I use to be mad af playing ttt2 but it was at myself not the game.
@@Matt123Chez tag 2 damage was rewarding, the damage was never the problem. Everyone had high damage and characters paired with other characters allowed some wonderful things. Tekken tag 2 and prior all had massive damage. Literally T5 you could kill a dude in 8 hit combos that consisted of majority jabs. Same shit in Tekken 3 and 4. Tekken 2 you could be one shot by grabs, normal grabs. Tekken 8 damage is very very low, with how aggressive people are as well as healing, it's awful. Tekken was never a game strictly about neutral like ever. It was used to open people up for a chance to punish heavily. You make a mistake you die, like a real fight. You didn't get many chances and it separated the bums from the greatest. Tekken 7 and 8 doesn't do that. It gives all these easy mode options to avoid punishment or avoid having to play Tekken at all. It's very sad
I’m surprised actually niggas been glazing this game and the signs of scrub shit been in the game since launch .i instantly noticed the change in gameplay .
I did lol.. It's common, first it's a GREAT game (Lots Of Clicks), content views even out, Then it's BROKEN no good (Lots of clicks), when people stop clicking these headlines it goes to Tekken 8 COMEBACK/FIXED (lots of clicks), vicious redundant cycle of BS.
I completely agree with the whole thing about the game being too full of 50/50s and that a lot of times it's all a guessing game but I feel like the game at its core is great and most issues could be fixed with balancing patches and maybe some moveset changes not holding my breath though considering Bandai's track record with recent patches...
He's right unfortunately.. very simple: choose a r...ed plus frame booosted fast mix up god character like: reina, feng, jin, drag and even if you're a total moron get carried to high ranks.... press as many panic buttons on top as well.
And consider some of these lemmings play on easy control mode... This game is so overtopped for noobs to feel like they are actually learning when they are getting carried by dev auto combo design
Some of the stuff in the game is just too ridiculous. Heat should not be able to be activated from the get go, let people earn it. Your opponent hits you with his heat move, you block it and he still can end you if you guess wrong. Chip damage…no, just no.
Yeah then characters at beginning should be far away from each other so that people don’t use lag switch or frame traps which they will hit you at beginning before you have a chance to get away or block 🤷♂️
Imo I agree. My problem with T8 is just how hard it is fight back when getting pressured sometimes. All the moves that push back and have armor are a problem…full stop. Like dude, recovery from is too much. And the characters oppressing get too much freedom. It rewards spam. Which imo should never be what the game WANTS you to do. It’s like the whole “when in doubt…” situation. When in doubt mash it out. When in doubt use a armored move to get out. That whole thing.
Both Knee and Arslan Ash didn't like the tekken8 because its really not fun its just crap compared to old Tekkens. My personal opinion playing since Tekken 2
Frankly, I am amazed that people are not seeing the parallels between T8 and DOA6, especially when the DOA designer and producer is WORING ON T8. Counter hit throws with more damage? Meter? Plus on block gimmick moves based on meter usage? Bounce off walls and floors that look exactly like DOA? Unbreakable grabs? This game is pretty much DOA7 at this point. I am rather amazed no one is pointing any of this out. I feel like I'm the only sane person in the asylum.
I think people tend to really get it twisted when they say stuff like "X mechanic is for bringing in and keeping new players" Because to be honest the recent boom in fighting game popularity has nothing to do with all these games having mechanics "For casuals" it's all to do with netcode. I am one of these recent players, I for years and years wanted to get into fighting games but never did. Why? Cause I live in the midwest with no locals and with terrible internet, playing the games were fundamentally a waste of time because of how bad the lag was. Sure I could have technically pulled through but that's a lot to ask a new player. Why am I playing Tekken 8 more than I did 7? Because I get matches faster, and my online experience is better. It's the same reason I finally DID get into fighting games with Strive, I hate that game mechanically but when it came out I could load it up, play good quality online matches quickly. These mechanics have nothing to do with the recent new player retention in the genre- And while I know most players don't get that, I also don't think devs totally get that- which is a worrying prospect.
Love and respect the time you put in to breakdown a variety of perspectives on top of giving your own. I've been playing hardcore since Tekken 1 and my passion for this franchise is off the charts. As a Tekken enthusiast, martial arts instructor, and content creator myself, I truly commend and appreciate your work. Blessings to you. You're doing an amazing job 🙏🏿💯👏🏿
The problem with competitive T8 is that it's just a lot of guessing that leaves little room for skill expression at the absolute highest levels. There's still a huge learning curve, but it tops out around intermediate skill and then becomes an advanced guessing game. I think it's because Tekken has never been a game about 50/50's. Tekken is a game where you can sidestep, sidewalk, duck, jump, backdash, parry, and armor through moves. Depending on who you are fighting, each defensive option beats different moves, meaning defense was extremely character-specific. A situation that locks you out of sidestepping or backdashing limits the possibilities tremendously because every other option is high/mid/low dependent. Personally I think backdashes and sidesteps/sidewalk could be more responsive to get you out of danger more quickly, and certain moves can have their tracking reduced. Edit: I realized my comment sounds very negative, but I'm having a lot of fun with the game. I just recognize that at a high level, the game is not that complicated compared to previous Tekken games. Games do not need to be complicated to be fun, but it does give the game more longevity when it takes a while to "figure out."
maybe making one of the most agressive fighting games in existance even MORE agressive wasn't such a good idea. at what point does having difficult defense and high knowledge checks just become unga? also, MVC3 has a pushblock that leaves you at full screen and the fastest movement ever.
My humble opinion is this: 50/50 mechanic is not the issue as it has pretty much always been accompanied by the punishment mechanic. Yes, you have the option of either a low or a mid attack, but if I guess right, I get to punish you. If you take away 50/50 and all I need to do is learn your strings then there is literary no counter-play once I learn them. This is the reason why 10-hit combos quickly became useless after Tekken 4. The real problem with Tekken 8 (as highlighted but not stressed), are moves that are excessively plus-frame on hit (anything more than 2+ is excessive). The fact that you are punished for correctly guessing and blocking has always been something that I felt was just inherently unfair. At first, these moves had high start-up frames, but now, literary everyone has a plus-frame move that is unavoidable. At the very least, you should always give up your natural turn after an attack. If you decide to carry on, then you should always run the risk of being countered. Taking away heat-smash plus frames but leaving the pressure tools of Dragunov, Feng, Hworang and other characters does not make sense. The "Pressure" character archetype should not exist in Tekken as it literary goes against the very fundamentals of the game. Scrap these plus-frame moves from everyone, they are the real cancer of Tekken.
In my personal opinion, Tekken 8 is fine. I find more enjoyment with the absolute abundance of combo creativity that this game has to offer (though that's being depleted with that stupid patch). And despite having really broken shit, this game is actually well balanced. You can't look at one character no matter how poor their stats are and say "There's no way to win that match up". I do hope balancing comes in because while I'm an aggressive player, it gets overwhelming to keep up with 50 50s and make one mistake to death. That being said, I don't want people to only use safe strings and backdash indefinitely with a life lead.
Geat video! I don't use Twitter or anything so I really appreciate the breakdown of the tweet and the conversation around it. I like that you add your own personal thoughts as well and that your tone isn't either "Tekken is ruined forever" or "this is the game now, play it the way it's meant to be played or don't play" You made a comment about the tweet that said something like "new players will never learn by playing this game because they're just mash or use unsafe things" I mention it because I think that same thing a lot but with T8, but it's an interesting observation that, if this is Tekken now and into the future, they actually are learning the game and us legacy players are being held back by our idea of what Tekken is and how it's played based on older games. Personally I'm with you on (at least really hoping) the game will be toned down when the casuals inevitably move on. I lean towards the "if I want to play and do well at a game, it's my "job" to adapt to it" opinion but... I've always played very defensively and am least drawn to rushdown characters in fighting games. Logically I can think "this is the new game" and deal with it but I can't pretend I'm personally having a fantastic time with the aggressive shift. Anyway, here's hoping BN tunes the game in a way that makes it more enjoyable for me personally (and sounds like for a lot of legacy players) Thanks again for the video!
I'm a former Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag 2 tournament player(and winner) and I agree with him. That being said casuals love anything Tekken or Japanese so it will continue to avoid scrutiny until more big players come out and tell the truth.
The biggest problem that i actually have with tekken 8 during defensive play, is strictly its blocking mechanic and how it reacts with character move sets. What i have found that is very apparent as a lars player compared to other mains, is that on block, my launches or critical can be repelled. I have one one chance to make contact, or be repelled and punished. most other characters have the ability to continue a string that cantinues momentum with zero opening and ends in plus frames. If lars has an obvious weakness as a whole game mechanic, the rest of the games should follow the same rules. Blocking any low, should repel on block to create an opening for mashers. Why reward a lazy play style? Just sayin man, equality
I've played a lot of Tekken 8 and a lot of Tekken 7 Tekken 8 *feels* really good to play. The graphics are nice, there's really nice feedback to landing hits, crunchy sounds With friends it can be a lot of fun to just mess around and spar, but actually trying to win and do well is nigh impossible the HEAT system is... kinda whack, they made wakeup kicks punishable, generalised all rage arts to -15 mids with super armour. I remember how stoked I was when one of my coaches told me that you can just duck under Alisa's rage art or Jin's and pulling off that perfect punish. Ironically in Tekken 8, a game where if you block you're usually punished for it, if you're not blocking you just die. There's no way to interrupt it until you do enough damage to kill. You can't call them out on it and reverse it in any way with like, a low or anything. In low ranks they throw them out like clockwork so I block and punish, rinse and repeat. In higher ranks they'll throw them out at random and it just hits me because I'm not expecting it. Having your 10f jab punished with a whole-ass rage art will never be fun. The game forces you into so many situations where if you don't guess right you just lose. The top characters are INSANELY busted to the point of it almost feeling pointless to play anyone else. Why play Asuka when you can just play Jun and spam the same flowchart that even Tekken Kings fall for? (and a move that heals on block) Chip damage... battle pass... taking out features just to sell them to us later... need I go on? if the mechanics of the game were just slightly tuned in the other direction it would be a lot of fun, but these days I don't even feel like playing it because I know I'm just gonna get frustrated and pissed off. The mere thought of fighting other people gives me insane anxiety and this is from someone that has played several *multi-hour* deathmatches in Tekken 7 and Soul Calibur VI I played it basically nonstop for like, a month or something when I first got it, but it was taking such a toll on my mental health that I had to step away.
I think devs are legit confused at this point. On one end, ppl like me and many others say many fighters are too campy and non-interactive and encourage degenerate playstyles that isn't fun to look at. We enjoy volatile games that reward players for going in and making the first move rather than waiting. On the other hand, you have patient players who hate the "ungabunga" which I get, as I believe aggression should be rewarded when its tactile rather than reckless. This leaves the devs confused because they try to cater to one side and piss the other off. If they reward aggressive play, the game feels braindead. If they reward patience, the game's pace suffers and it becomes hard to watch. So where do we draw the line? Its a very hard balance to strike, but devs have to make it that aggressive play is either tied to difficult characters or characters that have significant weakness. You can't make it too accessible, but aggressive play does need to be viable for the game to live. After all, it IS a fighting game, right? We're trying to beat eachother's ass, not sit in a corner and wait for others. For that we play cod lol
@@servalkorion686 it boils down to people wanting to play tekken 7 in a tekken 8 game... this isnt tekken 7. mechanics have changed. meta has changed. playstyle has changed. sure, right now, gameplay is super agressive. But lets consider a super defensive gameplay for a moment...is this ideal? No coz its super boring to watch a classic defensive boring no risk, just backdash, superior defensive, and waiting out opponent making a mistake, gameplay style. We had this gameplay for 7 years now. Its time for new meta.
@@JaceWD all i heard was "a game isn't good at all, unless it's being drasitcally different all the fucking time". Look dude, nothing has ever stopped a player from being aggressive in older tekkens. That's the whole point of having a playstyle. Playing how you want. Wanna turtle? Do it. Wanna go head first at someone? Do it. There's no "meta" at all. A meta shouldn't even exist in a fighting game. The whole point of any fighting game is one guy goes after the other, and the other FINDS A WAY around it. Tekken 8 sounds lopsided as fuck with people complaining about being locked in 50/50 guesses.
@@EvilIceCream333 nobody cares what u think. Adapt or play monkey island escape on the wii. lmao @nobody stopped u from playing agressive... Everyone can say the same to you. Aint nobody stopping u from playing defensive in tekken 8. Learn how to block!! I seen people learning KBD before Tekken8 came out. bragging about it. Tough luck, you snooze u lose. U bet on wrong horse. Fk those KBD. Aint nobody wanting to see that shat in tourneys. Its BORING to watch, even more annoying to play against. Learn how to block in tekken 8 or go play monkey escape island or whatever its called. This isnt tekken 7. Its tekken 8.
It’s funny how many mechanical changes are made to these games to allegedly appeal to casuals, yet they often refuse to add the content they used to that *actually* would (team battle, tekken force, survival/endless modes, and/or options to toggle mechanics like that one tweet said). As a casual myself I played Tag 2 for MONTHS grinding for character endings, character customization items (LUCKY BOX is one hell of a drug), and just messing around with the giant roster. Meanwhile I haven’t played 8 in a while because all of those things are either lacking or entirely absent. It’s just not as fun to pick up and play (7 was the same tbh, but at least this game has Tekken Ball I guess).
If they wanted to appeal to casuals they should've just simplified mechanics of the game. Remove korean backdashes, increase the frame window for electric fists, simplify crouch canceling. Make it so there is no hidden advantageous mechanic that requires you to google it and spend countless hours practicing.
They already tried that in Tekken 4, and people HATED it. Damn near put the franchise on its death bed despite being the coolest game in the series aesthetic wise.
It’s crazy how they going crazy with micro transactions and street fighter is still the most egregious out of all them. Modern gaming practices are something else man
It’s so annoying when any criticism about a new game is disregarded as either “you just don’t like it cause you’re bad” or nostalgia, as if an older game couldn’t possibly be better
I am one of those people that absolutely LOVES chip damage. Allow me to explain: I really like that certain moves build up chip damage and that juggling combos do as well, because usually when it's my turn, heat engagers healing is very satisfying. It really does feel like a strong comeback mechanic. I dislike the fact that all attacks do chip damage in heat though. I believe this shouldn't be the case. If heat chip damage is deleted, all of a sudden chip damage becomes an advantage for the defender rather than that of the attacker. I believe this change will make people like it, especially if heat engage healing is buffed. What I really would love to see is that the attacks that usually do chip damage become healing attacks during heat instead. I want more healing in the game for a few reasons, but the biggest reason is that in a game heavy in 50\50s you really do need more time with the opponent in order to download their patterns. Healing helps with exactly that by prolonging the round. Edit: I want to add an idea I just got. Imagine what happens when all attacks that deal chip damage become unsafe. If it deals a ton of chip damage - launch punishable. If it deals just a bit of chip damage - a standard punish would suffice. This would be a really good indicator for what to punish and how. And it will promote high risk high reward gameplay for the attacker while allowing the defender to gain that health back by punishing.
230% agree, this game is frustrating to play; that's why i dove deep into the fundamentals. Because of that, I'm having more fun and actually winning more. Whether it be scrubs or skilled players. I went from green to orange in a little over an hour.
Me too Yen!! I love how Geese and Akuma feels like they were straight from their games and the Customization is awesome Plus Kunimitsu and Negan have those 2,2,2,2,2, strings....lol!
I think they could make this game at least 5x more fun, if they changed all heat smashes to be negative on block. Losing because your opponent mashed a safe on block, tracking, super move that garauntees a free 50/50 on BLOCK is not fun.
And if that did not do it, you still have to deal with random rage arts after that, that are better compared to tekken 7 , cause -15 always and neutral jabs are way more beaten by rage art.
Yes 100% can I kiss you for that?
☠️☠️☠️☠️
@@finnt4937rage arts arent random ong
True
When guilty gear has more neutral than your game you know you fucked up
To be fair Strive made most of the cast more defensive and slow by slowing air-dashing, making mixups punishable, and making safe project oki less common and rarely looping back into its self. I just wish that developers stopped trying to homogenize the fighting game genre into the same moderate blend of aggression and defense. Not every fighting game needs to be a midrange fighting game like Streetfighter.
@@giantdinoboy8264 I read strive and stopped reading right there, I said guilty gear
@@sofaking9404Strive is the most popular version and the game with the most neutral so I thought that Strive was the game being discussed.
@@sofaking9404imagine being so elitist you can't have a decent conversation without being condescending when someone is willing to engage with you in discussion, so you put down their argument all bc you didn't specify which guilty gear game(s) you were referring to. If you don't read this to the end, then you implicitly admit that it's a fact that you have such a low reading and comprehension level you can't process more than one scentence at a time
@@sofaking9404so you’re talking about the first guilty gear specifically?
I only recently got back into Tekken at the start of 2023 with Tekken 7.
Jumping into Tekken 8, I find myself getting way more irritated when playing in ranked. The top characters feel so overtuned it drives me up the wall.
The reason I went back to Tekken was to get away from Guilty Gear Strive's overtuned characters only to run into that design philosophy again.
Play SNK games, far better balancing than ArcSys ( they always messed it up) and Namco.
@@awesomereviews1561Kof 15 is dead. 10 minutes to find a match and when you find it will be 150+ ms against a dude who's been playing kof since 98 and he'll destroy you
What about SF6? How balanced is it?
@@ourada46 pretty balanced imo. There's like 5 bad character but you can still win with them if ur good
@@junior1388666naw you trippin, at master if you aren't a dlc character that no one understands yet....the base roster at master is Deejay, Juri, Ken, Zangeif(he's bad at neutral but his punish damage Is broken enough for people to risk it), chun li(takes extreme amount of effort to use and i know because her and ryu were my mains), Luke and cammy. If you aren't one of those, then good luck.
LOL man gave an OPINION, and everyone went ballistic like that episode on SpongeBob of everyone running around in a fire 😂😂😂. Topic wise? Why tf is this even a hot topic/ hot take? Like legitimately LMFAO. The game has to be the most aggressive fighting game in the world currently, not even Guilty Gear is this gd aggressive, and the game was conceptualized and conceived on having a highly difficult fighting game. Just saying, not a hot take
I was surprised that it was over 1 million views 😂 but I guess people have a lot of respect for Knee and his opinions.
@@RealMikeHollow LOL yea ig so, people really gotta stop putting blinders on tho. What he said was very basic and just a fact. Arguing Tekken 8 ISNT the most aggressive fighting game, is to legit just lie lol.
@@hartfantom I mean it's _not_ the most aggressive fighting game. It is the most aggressive Tekken yes but fighting game? No definitely not lol. You do still have a lot more defensive and evasive options than you do in many other games.
Except it's a fact that it's not truly fun.
@@mee091000you can tell the people who only play Tekken when they say Tekken 8 is the most aggressive fighter
The devs basically punishing players for defending and having a good read on their opponent. They were like "Oh you think you can block? Here's a safe 50-50 for you and also chip damage in case you guess correctly!"
🤣🤣
So true.
How tf game punished you for a good read on 50/50? Low parry, reversal, hyrer armour, moves that reduce your hitbox, jumps and sidesteps. Block is the safest option and should have some downsides.
I had a lot of fun with Tekken 8 until red ranks and I realized spamming with high tier characters got me into purple ranks faster than playing proper with my main. The game is just mind numbingly aggressive.
Same
Fr picked up eddy and my first time in ranked I hit red ranks when stopped, it honestly felt mindless
@@aweto5199 okay I will admit Eddy is a whole ass problem lol
I think Tekken didn't need to increase aggressiveness, but rather reduce passivity. They are two waaay different things.
By increasing aggressiveness too much, you send tactics and maneuvers to waste. For example Law is based on feints, but you can't feint if you have the opponent spamming attacks over you 100% of the time. They just broke the game. That's why the game is unbalanced right now, but I believe it still can be fixed.
@@johnmacoI wouldn’t even call it aggressiveness. Just straight cheese. How is it that a move that should be negative on block still allows my opponent to get the same whole ass combo off before I can even get my punish off. I’ve found myself saying “how the hell did they get that off” or “how the hell did they hit me” way more times than previous games.
This is a common thing. Once a series pivots into an easier game style to bring in casual/new players the veteran of the series find that they are out of place. Veteran point out legitimate issue but are quickly rebuffed by those casual/new players since they can finally compete with the higher skill players of the past. Then as those casual/new player continue to play the game and evolve into veteran players they start to mirror the same complaints of the veterans of the past. Then the next game will come out and the cycle will continue.
no game has been around long enough to have multiple generations of veterans 😂😂 tf u talking about
@euomu are u serious. Sf has Been around almost 40 years tekken 30 years marvel nearly 30 years. Sf2 one generation 3s another sf4 another... haha this has to be a joke. Mvc2 alone has had several resurgence each with its on generation of players. In fact Justin Wong is part of the second generation of mvc2 players lol.
@@euomu the confidence to be this wrong is something that I wish I had
@@jaya6329 Tekken out for 30 years is one set of Veterans lol. Street Fighter you could argue 2 but most people adapted to 3s
@@sugoi9680So your argument is only one set of people ever played tekken in the entire existence of the franchise? Over the course of those 30 years You have at least 3 generations of people in general. But to you they only count as one set of people. If this is your point or understanding then there is no point in having any further discussion. Please think about this though. Each iteration of a game will have both new and old players. That is already two generations. Arlsan is considered a vet but he started playing tekken with tekken 6. That's 5 iterations before he even started, and by tekken 8 he is considered a veteran from the old generation of the game....
Played Tekken for 27 yrs, uninstalled T8 two weeks ago, not looking back. This is the first time ive ever done that to a Tekken game, it is the first time in 27 years that i dont WANT to play Tekken. Thats enough points proven about Tekken 8 for me. Shame tho, love the franchise.
I'm to that point as well. Been playing since t2
Its a bitter truth, no matter how hard we want to deny it... Game jus isn't the same anymore.
you haven't played for 27 years nonstop, that statement means nothing, Maybe your brain has just decided to find a stubborn corner and refuses to move beacuse ''I'm right''
yet people will keep playing beyond your time on the game, to be THAT mad over it instead of having fun where you can seems to me like you've just become jaded and it's not just the game. All the older games ahd annoying things about them as well
@@Redcloudsrocks intesive playing from T2 - T5, other than that casual.. soo yea, thats that..
Also, its supose to get better over time, not the other way around, but have fun with what you have. Im just getteng the f out of the Tekken franschise. Say what you want, what im experiencing is only up to me, and if i decide it is trash, it is. If you like it, then good on ya.
@@TheSmongo I predicted It the moment i Saw the "we're gonna encourage agressiveness over defense" bs explanation for the devs...im just surprised the didnt made ragearts + on block...
Both the "Git Gud" players and the" I'm going to enjoy the game anyway I don't care what you say" players are the most annoying thing about this entire conversation honestly
They ruin every conversation on anything.
fr
knee should just git gud BROO 🙄
The classic "this game is good for a month before I start losing" players are always the most annoying by default with every fighting game to be released
@@aledantih6524 So once people had time with the game and see the flaws and are past the honeymoon stage of new game/ new experiences, that's when people want to complain, when they actually have had time with the game and are able to look at it with a more critical eye, that's what you're annoyed about, or are you annoyed that people weren't complaining when it was new so they are a bunch of hypocrites, either way that's a very wrong mentality, that ignores time put into the game, patch updates, burnout, or the game not having much to it
make the game easier for casuals -> bigger player base -> stonks
Just greedy business ruining a great game for even more profit. Not unusual.
Greedy doesn't equal wanting to stay afloat. The industry right now has very little room for expensive, super niche titles and even with the more accessible nature of T8 it's still already pretty niche. Gatekeeping kills games and genres.
@@aledantih6524and tekken held out on not doing that for the longest. Probably longer than any fighter. Need to cut em some slack frfr. Whole lotta tears over this brand new game. The veterans had thier time to understand the game and its mechanics. Hiding combos and frame data for the people that actually learned n wanted thier secrets of thier playing styles kept. But them secrets are washed up now. Tekken is more transparent and less gate keepy. And I honestly just think people are just mad about that subconsciously more than anything.
@@georgecastanza6712 it's just the nature of the FGC. They'd honestly prefer if they released the same game over and over
@@aledantih6524 gatekeeping retains the identity and soul of these games and genres. Ever notice how when anything go mainstream, it goes to sht? Notice how all modern fg does not have the soul of any of the old ones. In style, in identity, in community, in difficulty. Just easy popcorn entertainment. Pretty lights without substance.
This is the sacrifice made for accessibility. It goes deep.
Accessibility dilutes everything. Its like watching fast and furious. You literally just said the money matters in the end without saying it outright. Which is exactly what these companies want.
@@lostvayne9146 I don't notice that because it's not there, it's just something nostalgia addicts and doomers have tricked themselves into believing. These games still have plenty of heart, soul and yes, substance. Also fighting games are way less mainstream even now than they were before.
Tekken 7 never made me feel mentally exhausted. I used to love death matching people endlessly and i felt like i could really tell the difference between a good player and a bad one, but in T8, i feel like its mash or get mashed on. I loved learning frame data, match-ups, interactions. I'm back to blue rank like i was in T7, but i feel like I'm in the equivalent of T7 red ranks even though im in like the 3-5% of the playerbase. I was expecting to pour another couple thousand hours in T8, but I'm already playing other shit instead. Just waiting on patches to bring me back.
100% agree
I mean that's because T7 has no mechanics besides rage art and people can block all day, maybe you're just jaded are looking too hard for ''skill or bad/good players''
When Arslan said it people got mad and called him washed. Now Knee is saying it and people agree. These Pakistani players are at least 3 month ahead of schedule lol.
Facts!
Funnier still is arslan is winning tournaments so his word should be taken more seriously.
Chip damage should not be in Tekken what were they cooking with that
Now i just imagine Kazuya throwing potato chips at Jun sleeping on the couch.
@@AmiriHipHop bro really said he waited years for this moment 😭
In a game where dudes are doing flykicks at you it makes sense.
Plus, in a game backdash/ss block. You need some way to call out incessant blocking
Chip damage is nowhere near the worst thing in t8
I think the idea of chip damage is fine, but in Tekken 8 it's more like chunk damage. 2-3 hits from some "chip" damage moves can take a quarter of your health. Being punished _that_ much for being defensive is crazy.
many of my rounds last 10-11 seconds when I win. Lost one yesterday that lasted 7 seconds. I miss neutral
It’s not even satisfying to win that way either, it’s just this empty feeling. It’s a real problem man, kinda sad to see what the game has become
this is my first tekken and i hate all the heat chip damage plus frames bs its not jus old heads
Only glazers act like it’s just old heads .
It just feels like a title where if you block you lose. Defense is so inconsistent and you don’t even really get rewarded for it with like, low parry combos or what have you.
SF4 era was the Renaissance era, sfv/tekken 7 was the comeback mechanic/blockstun & wait era... and now we're in the power fantasy era, Capcom/Namco doing anything to get as many people playing as possible. Full circle, fighters fell into obscurity later into the 3D era, we didn't realize how important 2D style fighting was. Not until SF4/MK9.
Tekken 8 doing nothing to get as many people playing as possible. There is nothing to do for new player in Tekken 8 to stay.
Tekken 7/Mk11 was the "made for casuals" era.
@@Disconnect350 Tekken 7 made for casuals? game barely had any content and the content it had was dogshit at release
@@The300Player 1000% Tekken 7 was a disgrace.
the new Garou looks sooooo freakin uglyyyyy
I agree with him, defense isn't an option anymore.
If you play against a character like Dragonov or Azucena, and get frame trapped. Either you get out or you die, and while they have powerful systems that teach you how to punish, through the replay feature. Currently any slow character that gets trapped easily, becomes dead in the water.
From what i have seen it isn't about momentum anymore, the opponent can just say nope, you aren't allowed to play. It isn't that heat is bad, that chip is bad, or anything like that. You can shut down your opponent with frame traps, and Reading what they are going to do doesn't matter. When they have get out of jail free cards that take 50-80% of your hp for free.
Oh you punished, but it wasn't a launcher and i just so happen to not be in a combo. Heat smash into 50/50 launcher either way guess right or die.
Isn't very fun.
When ever I plays Kuma if I face a azucena I literally have to nothing to answer besides power crushes
Quit with that issue of backing knee this is the same person thought Tekken 7 was best game literally was rigged sluggish mechanic developed game
@@maxlopez7671tekken 7 played closer to traditional tekken . 8 on the other hand has traded movement and defense for endless mashing I can tell you never played tekken prior to 7😂
Kind of off topic, but bringing up Tekken 4, I really... REALLY hope they increase the volume of Tekken 4's music in T8. T7 had the same issue, so if you put a T4 track on a stage, you can barely hear it. And that is a damn shame considering T4's soundtrack is 10/10
Bandi namco higher ups barely care about pluggers what you think they hire a team dev to add those features
This is what happens when you make Tekken full-blown scrub friendly, rather than focus on a fleshed tutorial system that offers rewards in motion. Ie you receive items whenever you do technical stuff. Ie you sidestep punish an opponent 5 times, you receive neyo from the matrix outfit etc.
The problem with chip damage is it forces people to pressure with the same moves (especially when heat is activated) and the same flowcharts get used without further experimentation. This benefits some characters way more than others because they have large chip damage tied to key pressure moves and others don't.
Haha hell yes! Look at Nina, she is a nightmare in heat and will delete your healthbar while you sit there blocking in seconds.
This is what happens when you try to please everyone and pick profits instead of playtesting and creating a quality game. Tekken 8 is an absolute mess and people lying abs stating its good game are only doing it to save face.
totally agree...and also when they try so hard to imitate a mechanic from 2d fighting games. This heat system is just a rip off of SFV's V System without a defensive option. lol.
Tekken 8 devs fail to understand why people would do things like play smash bros with items and finishers OFF on a stage with no obstacles (final destination). Rage and Heat feel like items added to Tekken that noone really wanted.
The amount of pressure on block with forced 50/50s is what gets me. I might aswell go buy a lottery ticket.
people say that tekken 8 has good sales, so it must be good. I dont think so, we have learnt in this franchise that the sequel rides the hype of the previous game. Which was tekken 7, the best-selling tekken game. My point is that just because tekken 8 sold great doesnt mean its a good/balanced game
Fair point fair point. I do agree, but it can only ride them for so long before word gets around and it starts to slow the sales down.
no? Tekken5/DR selling more
Tekken 7 was trash, 8 is better but still a soulless modern fighting game.
@Disconnect350
stop talking nonsense you were just a bad player in Tekken 7 and probably the other games before it too no one needs someone like you in the community or in the game to make it better just go away and play your mk1 get in your ass
@Disconnect350 That's a straight fucking lie lmfao. Tekken 8 is bad. It's for scrub players. Everyone is given a handicapped. The difference between 8 and 7 is it feels like theres training wheels on the game for Tekken 8 and for Tekken 7 I had free side step capabilities in 7. The side step is ass in 8, and I play Xaioyu. I destroy most people I fight. But when I get beaten by people I know I shouldn't get beat by I start getting pissed. Telling me that I need to get good in tekken 8 is like telling me to get good in happy wheels. The game favors scrubs, which means if you like playing it, you favor instant gratification, when skill set is better for long term gratification. Society is already on a heavy increase of ADHD retards. I hate people defending the population on why they're so dumb and incapable. The only reason I find myself playing it is to see if I can figure out how to have fun in it. Out of the... 325 hours I've put into tekken 8 and the... 500+ I put into tekken 7, I should be beating 90% of the people I face when I hop on. My win rate is 60% in ranked. It should be 90%
I guess I can understand how the veteran Tekken players feel seeing as I had to go through the same feeling with DOA 6.
Change is cool and all but sometimes they go a little overboard in One direction and it just leaves it bad Aftertaste
As a mediocre Claudio player, I depend a lot on defense.
But some characters just rush me down, i can sidestep, block, duck, etc.., and there is nothing i can do. I feel like they are just pressing buttons nonstop and there is nothing I can do about it. the chip damage is wild.
Some matchups feel nearly impossible.
I feel u bro. I’m a mediocre Steve player and fuck trying to bait for counter hits, the strings just don’t end…
As a Lili Player, I felt that. Not fun at all.
Yeah dude, you can completely outplay someone too and they still win because they're a dragunov or feng. Complete bs
Like raven for example
Claudio’s a biyash, too. Shooting arrows all day and spamming that make-you-ballerina-spin attack.
Just kidding! ^_^
I literally called it when this game first came out. Idk if any of you have played For Honor, but the exact same thing happened over there. They changed the entire combat system to focus aggression and 50/50s over and over and over. Its literally just a guessing game. Theres not much skill expression beyond learning a character's moves.
I used to love For Honor but they really messed it up ☠️
So true man. When For Honor came out I could see clear skill progression as I continued to play. Everyone in the early seasons playing at higher levels would be untouchable against someone that was new to the game. Defense was vital and parrying and feinting was the way to skill check people. The game used to award defense more than offense. Some people might have called a long match where no one gets hit boring but I actually find it far more satisfying to have an evenly matched clanging of swords with a variety of mixups to try and break their defense rather than the same 3 abusable moves spammed over and over in random order by both players till one of them gets the win.
I played for honor and I disagree If your referring to the CCU. they sped up everything but if you were good, you still bodied people.
The things I hated was when they started adding dumb properties to moves like bps light light heavy, where his top heavy would literally track through a vertical plane. Which doesnt make sense.
But all the newer heros are braindead and lazy. To help the casuals.
@spooky4223 Bro I used to be a Master's Valkerie. Literally played the game since the beta full no life 😂 the game was very defensive before and had some lame tactics which made PC a snooze fest at high level. Instead of slowly balancing the game to fix these issues AT HIGH LEVEL, they sped it up HEAVILY to the point where a formerly unreactable PK zone is now an average light attack, gave everyone dodge attacks, gave everyone unblockables, and no character has a real identity now because everyone can just mash. It's a guessing game. Older FH had way more skill expression. I haven't touched the game in about a year by now and I guarantee I could hop on, pick Orochi, and free up some people lol
@thehorse5307 THANK YOU!!!!! EXACTLY!!! We think the exact same man. It's a long fight with extreme mind games of feinting. I remember back when Kensei had to feint 3 times to get in a light then start his mixups 😂😂 it was slow but it was sooooo much more interesting to watch because winning felt EARNED
tekken 8 is going through the street fighter 5 problem where it encourage aggressive play & poor defensive option
this is a sf6 problem as well not just limited to 5. All the mechanics are overtuned save reversal which ironically is not very good.
I remember winning a ranked match with balrog dashing in the corner and mashing triangle completely auto pilot
Tekken has been more aggressive since 5 and has only shot up from there, I think there are some things that can be balanced to make just normal blocking more viable but compared to MK1 it’s miles ahead in terms of defense
@@DrippleDragon everything things is miles ahead of mk in general
What I dont like about this is how devs are using 50/50's as the go to method to mitigate fundamental play and even the odds when facing superior opponents.
Instead of motivating players to better their gameplay, now everyone gets free 50/50s that will land half of the time no matter how good you are.
I went from being amazef at my opponents good plays to being annoyed at bs
I almost think it might be a better idea to get rid of the heat system entirely besides the heat dash. That's actually a useful mechanic in terms of extending combos.
That’s making Tekken more like SF6 by solely keeping the drive rush mechanic
I wonder how much things would change if they just removed chip damage from plus frame attacks… or at least remove all chip damage unless the heat mode is on. Because then chip damage exists only in a specific window of the round.
And this is why I don't play new fighting games anymore. I don't have respect for people no-lifing for a BRAND on the internet like they owe it their lives or something.
Tbh in tekken 8 seeing chip has always made me uncomfortable
All you do is block like a, forgive me, weak bich. WHY don't you press some buttons and ACTUALLY FIGHT. It's a fighting game
I havent even gotten the game but this was my exact worry when i heard T8 was going more aggressive. As someone who has been playing since T1 and i find the more patient and tactile combat feels the best and most authentic
I honestly agree with everything he has said. The game is to aggressive and I swear the fun gets drained when coming across characters that are heavy rushdown and you are forced to block the entire match to where I sometimes put the remote down cuz of the mindless aggression. I wish heat was a defensive option. I’m a defensive player but that’s a fault in this game because you have to be up your opponents face and even when you feel like you are doing more aggression than your opponent you get hit with something that does more damage to you. I really don’t find much fun in the game anymore I’m close to being a flame ruler but I just don’t care anymore when I’m getting forced in to a corner not being able to do anything and utilize my skills while my opponent spams the same move that is 0
Daigo has stated on the FGC Translated Alpha channel: "In my opinion, SF6 is way better than SFV. It's not even comparable." He goes into detail how strong offence and defence is but does think turtling/defence is stronger. And finds the game fun. However this was back when SF6 launched 9 months ago and I don't know what he thinks of the game now since SF6 has evolved quite a bit. But I recommend checking out "How Daigo Feels about Street Fighter 6 So Far" it's a good viewing.
And just to add an important context: for the ones who aren't aware, the truth is that Daigo isn't a big fan of the defense attributes of SF3 and SF4.... he already said that in old translated clips. He prefers more offensive games. His ability to play well those games of strong defense attributes doesn't mean he loves them or at least find that playstyle the best one.
Daigo and Tokido have that similar philosophy to the game, Broski did an interview with Tokido at Red Bull Kumite and he similarly said the game was above SF5. A lot of the Japanese pros love SF6 for it's playstyle, the western pros hate it because they fail to adapt and are used to autopiloting to get results.
I cannot take seriously anyone who suggests that Knee and Arslan are unable to adapt to the game.
My very attention to anything they may say disappears.
Also because Tekken 8 competitively hasn't even started, what were they supposed to win?
Come on
Games bad. You're probably new, Tekken was good the way it was. All it needed was new moves added.
Tekken 8 is more rage inducing than fun, the neutral game is gutted and heat basically killed sidestepping mostly since heat smashes are plus on block and on hit, track on both sides and put you in stance forcing you to guess again even if you play good defense, the chip dmg is absurd
Honestly a tekken force mode with raid boss mechanics would be the casual player magnet, the story mode one is so good but man
That actually seems like a good idea
u even game bro?
storymode "good"? lol
@user-or4ct5ow6b if you didn't like it that's you, but bro is speaking facts right now. A lot of fighting games don't have as much single player content as Tekken 8 does. Tekken force with RPG elements sounds hard asf
I don’t even like to watch Tekken 8. Nothing makes any sense. The power crush becomes a joke.
I'm part of the "loyal Tekken fanbase" that's left T8 almost 2 months ago. I wasn't losing, rank wasn't hard, but I wasn't having fun. I did not like how I had to play the game. I've been playing fighting games for 20 yrs, and T8 feels like MKX.
P.S. RIP is a Namco cheerleader, t's his job, don't take his opinions as genuine.
We can say that this tweet was SHAMBOLIC
Rambunctious use of the word, good sir *tips hat*
Bamco is too greedy, creating new game mechanic that is too focused on casual players, i think its because Bamco is too concerned with profits and money. They forget that casual players won't last long, while what makes this game alive are the hardcore players and its community.
This method will make the game's lifespan not last as long as the previous 7th series.
And i think this is the time for other developers to make fighting games that have a system like the old Tekken game.
I am sure it will be successful because it is proven that there is a market that likes it.
If Bamco and Capcom could sustain their fighting games off hardcore players alone there’d be no need to branch to a casual audience.
@@DrSwazz Warner Archive (not a game company and is a division of Warner Bros) has the exact same problem with the Looney Tunes and other classic films, as hardcore fans are not many enough to sustain the sales alone so they will have to brance out the release and play it save with those releases, while hard core film fans might want all the controversial stuff.
@@kristjanbirnirivansson528 Exactly. You gotta pick a camp of players that will keep your franchise going in the long term.
it makes sense honestly considering his play style. i can see where he's coming from. it feels like the guy defending is at so much disadvantage compared to the guy being aggressive because of shit like chip,homing throws.heat ,amount of the moves that forces 50/50 , nerfed backdash . i think chip damage should only be a thing when someone uses heat
Is that not how heat works? From my understanding and playing, I thought chip damage was only awarded when your in heat. Also leading to where you can't die from chip
@@NrettGtheres also certain moves that have chip. I think its heat engagers that do chip but i dont fully know
@@PervySage723 Interesting, do they do chip when you try entering into heat (where sometimes you just don't enter it because it failed) or is it because it has the property of an heat engager that it does chip automatically?
If it's the latter it has to be a bug then since they probably applied it assuming you would go into heat anyway.
@@NrettG yah idk. I know kazuyas ff2 demonpaw does ship and its a heat engager
@@PervySage723 There's also the rare ki charge, which is where the chip damage concept originated in the series back in Tekken 3. However, it's a non-factor especially in comparison to Tekken 8's chip damage options. And while every hit is a counter hit, you can't block in ki charge mode.
I think there’s a great opportunity here to create an Capcom vs SNK style system where you choose your play-style and get buffs nerfs depending on your choices. You want to play old school? You can turn off the new mechanics and get a defense and life buff (or something else) that balances the two play-styles so that they can compete.
This would retain new players and casuals while also allowing legacy pros to play real tekken and still get rewarded for it.
It would also enhance the game’s meta, making it so all sorts of different ways of fighting would come to the table, making tournaments very exciting to watch.
I came into Tekken as an anime fighter (Guilty Gear Accent Core/Blazeblue) so my playstyle is very rushdown 50/50. But even in those anime fighters there's very strong defense options for that.
Yeah I wish I knew why but trying to block in tekken 8 just feels so mushy. I liked it in tekken 7 where it felt like getting attacked was purely your fault for not blocking where to here I just have no idea why blocking isn't working half the time.
This is why i prefer D0A 5LR counter system. So you can't just spam highs and lows or grabs without getting countered. So you have to mix it up.
We need that burst mechanic or drive reversal to say GTFO me cause if sidestepping dont work, backdash and low parry are nerfed, you take chip damage from blocking then you might as well just lube up and bend over at the wall instead of trying to defend
Remove chip damage, heat mechanics, mtx.
Bring back 3d movement and offline modes.
also remove rage arts
It isnt. Most people ive played with or talked to in discord literally seem to be more upset, than they seem to be enjoying it.
it isnt fun. Cause everything has been made liberal. 1 button heat. 1 button rage. Everyone hits like a truck. Im stuck at bushin ranks because of how points are awarded and taken away. Sometimes i win 3 ranks above me and get only 300 points. Sometimes i lose, i lose 500-1000 points for no reason. Wtf is this shit?
I've been playing since Tekken 5. Tekken 8 is not fun. Fast attacks that hit so far. So many 50:50s. Strong power-crushes. Heat. Tracking throws. This doesn't feel like Tekken anymore.
I'm a complete noob in fighting games and i can tell you that the problem is casuals, casuals are ruining videogames, especially fighting games, developers can only see the dollar signs that casuals bring so they will strip the identity of a game away and replace it with anything that appeals to the casual audience, while completely disregarding the dedicated players who supported the franchise for decades.
No casuals, you don't get to talk don't on veteran players, you don't have to kiss their boots but you don't get to talk down on them, their opinion is way better than a casual's opinion.
Regardless, it's an absolutely undeniable reality that the modern strategy (actually since the late PS3 and PS4 gen) worked in commercial terms. It's true that the franchises were sustained by the passionate community in the beginning, but it's also true that all franchises became harder to sustain under that old model of management.
SF literally died and was buried for almost 10 years with Third Strike. All other franchises like Darkstalkers and MvC died. SNK games died (and the company too), then returned but struggling hardly, and KOF 13 (the best looking 2d fg ever) underperformed and almost killed the company a 2nd time. Tekken struggled around the time of late T6 and Tag2, and SC only deteriorated in popularity since SC3 and struggled very hard particularly in the SC5 time. And DOA also deteriorated after the late 00s, and VF in practical terms died, because it didn't get a true new game since the mid 00s (not very different from new versions of SF2 that continued being made after the 90s). So all active franchises had a struggling phase... And there's also a lot of old franchises that stay dead and buried.
So what can we expect from the companies when the games started doing so much better the moment they change the management strategy? Literally all of them sold better than in the past. Worse: the newest versions of each franchise, that opened up even more to the casual public, are doing extremely well. It shows the old school community alone isn't enough to sustain these games. Like it or not, this genre as whole truly cannot afford to continue functioning like in the 90s-00s. There's no way to solve this problem.
@@carlosaugusto9821 i think that the answer is to keep a balance between the casuals and the hard core if (IF) you care about the "soul" of the game, the problem is that we are living in a post mobile gaming world and mobile games are extremely successful, and what kind of players play mobile games? Casuals, so it is natural that companies saw that and immediately started watering at their mouths and changing games to attract casual audiences. So what we are left with is a very destructive trend that will continue to make games worse because the only thing that really matters is money, and I'm sorry but that's not how we got the best games ever made, most had very humble beginnings and were made with passion, money wasn't as much the main objective as it is today.
Look at the "yellow paint" in modern games, is that necessary? No, even toddlers can figure out how to play a game, but it's all about laziness. do you know that a lot of successful mobile games are autoplay? like they play themselves... This is the gift of the casual player, and this is what we are witnessing in games, in SF6 we get modern controls, in granblue FVR we get easy inputs, it's because they know people don't like to make an effort to play a game anymore, and it will continue to turn games into worse versions of themselves.
Casuals don't care about the essence of a game, the consume and then jump to another game, just like locusts consume and jump to another crop, yes they are many but not for long.
This is what happens when you have suits controlling a gaming company instead of a developer with a vision and passion, all the money in the planet is never enough for them.
Look at fromsoftware, they don't care about appealing to casuals, at least they don't ruin their vision for that... For now.
Yeah, Majority of games are being made casual/simplified these days, not just fighting games. Games in the 90s and 2000s, there were not many "hand-holding" features, but now theres so many. Games these days are made for everyone, rather than a focused niche
that is just the meta now, its sad. We got devs that i swear probably dont even play video games dumbing down games to appeal to casuals. Happens with all games not just fighting games.
And people wondered why Soul Calibur died, it just catered to the casuals way too much. SC3-6 might as well have been single player games. It just became a make your own anime girl simulator. Like litterally they added rock paper scissors as a mechanic in SC6. It's embarrassing.
Kinda wish that if we can’t have death matches, the sets would be mandatory for ranked.
I prefer playing tekken old series rather than playing tekken 8, they have changed character movelist, animation and everything which makes tekken to tekken
The casual audience do NOT care about learning or getting better. They just pick it up to have fun. That is the thing you guys are missing.
No, even as a casual player the aggressive playstyle is annoying. It's probably more to be flashy and nice to watch. It's basically made for streamers.
You want to hear something ironic? The developers said that heat was supposedly going to make the game more fast paced and intense. However, how i see it, all heat does is completely slow down the pace of the game. Whenever you or your opponent activates heat in a match, everybody freezes. Both of you are just slowly tiptoeing across the stage just hoping and praying that you don't get sucker punched by an attack that does a ton of damage, track to both sides, and is very advantageous on block. Just look at someone like Devil Jin, Jun, or King for example. When they have heat activated, you literally have to stop dead in your tracks because one wrong move and you will lose 25-50% of your health (or more if there is a wall/floor break/blast). Did I already mention that you cannot sidestep it?
By the way, I'm just talking about heat smashes. I haven't even gotten to the other options. You have to be afraid of heat smashes that do all of the things I just mentioned, heat dashes that can either launch for a full combo on hit or be super plus on block and guarantee a mix up, and heat bursts. There's also heat engagers which some are just braindead to theow out. Watch a Mishima match (Kazuya, Jin, Devil Jin, and Reina) and take a shot (or just count (if you're underage)) every time you see someone go for a FF2. I promise you you will be feeling dizzy when the match is over. And dont even get me started on armored heat engagers that are safe.
The point is, what was supposed to be a mechanic that would increase and intensify the pace of a fight is instead a mechanic that just slams on the breaks and slow down the pace of a fight to a screeching halt because you or your opponent are afraid of so many things that can literally kill you very easily and has very little to no counterplay.
Ironic, isn't it?
As a new player who got addicted to SF6 because of the aggression mechanics, I realize that those mechanics were meant to get me engaged. But I found that quickly in the upper ranks I would be punished much more severely for being monkey brained. Is it not like this in Tekken 8? I’m diamond 3 in sf6 deejay player.
Get rid of Rage Arts.
All Heat smashes negative on block. Chip damage only applicable when engaged in heat mode. Side-steps and other defence mechanics need to be buffed considerably.
At least 50% of the cast have something about them that is borderline broken, which means they would have to apply so many nerfs it would almost be like designing the game from the ground up. Imo, the game won't ever bein a playable state because the design faults are too central to the game. I'm shocked to say this, but even Mortal Kombat 1 (another bad fighting game) is more balanced! Tekken 8 is the worst game in the franchise, I'd even place Tekken 4 above it.
Tekken 8 is a BEAUTIFUL game, but after seeing breakdown after breakdown it’s just a Pretty aesthetic mess of a fighting game :// so sad to see
In bringing up the topic of dumbing a game down to appeal to the casuals and all, I rather they maintain the barrier of entry rather than water it down. In the end, fighting games won't be for everyone, so why dumb the game down for the sake of short term gain at the expense of fun?
yea good question!
In an analogy, this is what I’m hearing: The NBA lowered the net from 10 feet to 8 feet. The tall and skillful players that can do crazy dunks are complaining like: “Basketball is not fun anymore because everyone can dunk now. Even the 5 foot players are driving in and dunking aggressively. It’s so frustrating!”
Please add to this analogy if there’s something I don’t understand.
uhhh? im not sure. Its more like this really simple gameplan is being exploited very easily and the game encourages aggression over defense. both are the yin yang of fighting games if that makes sense
@@InTheKitchenWristStirFryhe isn’t wrong though that’s what people are complaining about and Tekken has been easier since 5, also MK1 is a lot worse where defense is non existent, in Tekken it always took more than just blocking to have good defense, you have to learn to side step, parry, duck, learn to read characters and their patterns, and you do have to learn frame data because certain moves will completely shut someone down
The real problems I see are surrounding RA and HS and certain moves from characters
@@DrippleDragon idk ig i just thought the dunking analogy was weird, maybe im a tard
@@InTheKitchenWristStirFry You’re saying there’s more “Yang” offense, than “Yin” defense. I think the game now “forces” you to learn the matchups to be good at defense, while casuals can come in and play good offense.
@@InTheKitchenWristStirFry You’re no tard. I’m a weird thinker.
All fighting games aren’t fun anymore… they became too competitive… back when I was young in 2004 I remember having fun fights with friends, bros and friends of friends, and back then we had fun no matter win or lose. But right now people ready to kill you in real life just to get a W… rats, cheese, insults,exploits, cheats, DNFs are going rampant in fighting games… also the gameplay usually favours one or two particular styles out of like 6-8 and that’s why originality vanishes, and everyone is using couple of same fighters and spams same moves, combos…
You mean they became too accessible (easy). They'd watered down Tekken for you casuals.
Tekken 4 is my absolute favorite in single player mode. Two player mode is incredibly janky and sluggish competitively. Unplayable imo. Tekken 3,4,5, forever here
The mechanics of the game are just overwhelming and stressful, losing in this game unlocks another level of salt whereas I was very humble in loss in previous Tekken titles not including Tag 2.
Tag 2 was one of the only ones where I truly believed it was my fault and haven't felt that way in any other Tekken game sense. Tag 2, you can get so good that you could annihilate someone in a matter of 30secs for the full fight.
@@sky-oq5mr I don't understand the reasoning, Tekken 6 and 7 had a neutral game, knowledge check defensive style gameplay loop. Tag 2 was built on the mechanics of 6, the major problem with Tag 2 was the damage which is also a big problem with 8.
TTT2 is now only brought up to talk about how chaotic Tekken 8 is. Rightfully so.
@@RationalMinded it was brought up during Tekken 7 as well. We didn't know what we had until those shitty as sequal came out. I use to be mad af playing ttt2 but it was at myself not the game.
@@Matt123Chez tag 2 damage was rewarding, the damage was never the problem. Everyone had high damage and characters paired with other characters allowed some wonderful things. Tekken tag 2 and prior all had massive damage. Literally T5 you could kill a dude in 8 hit combos that consisted of majority jabs. Same shit in Tekken 3 and 4. Tekken 2 you could be one shot by grabs, normal grabs. Tekken 8 damage is very very low, with how aggressive people are as well as healing, it's awful. Tekken was never a game strictly about neutral like ever. It was used to open people up for a chance to punish heavily. You make a mistake you die, like a real fight. You didn't get many chances and it separated the bums from the greatest. Tekken 7 and 8 doesn't do that. It gives all these easy mode options to avoid punishment or avoid having to play Tekken at all. It's very sad
I didn't expect people too turn on tekken 8 so fast. 😂
it’s ass 7 is sm more fun
The fighting game community in a nutshell
old game good new game bad 2024 edition
I’m surprised actually niggas been glazing this game and the signs of scrub shit been in the game since launch .i instantly noticed the change in gameplay .
I did lol.. It's common, first it's a GREAT game (Lots Of Clicks), content views even out, Then it's BROKEN no good (Lots of clicks), when people stop clicking these headlines it goes to Tekken 8 COMEBACK/FIXED (lots of clicks), vicious redundant cycle of BS.
I completely agree with the whole thing about the game being too full of 50/50s and that a lot of times it's all a guessing game but I feel like the game at its core is great and most issues could be fixed with balancing patches and maybe some moveset changes
not holding my breath though considering Bandai's track record with recent patches...
Exactly
Yes the skill sceeling has dropped alot it seems, sad
He's right unfortunately.. very simple: choose a r...ed plus frame booosted fast mix up god character like: reina, feng, jin, drag and even if you're a total moron get carried to high ranks.... press as many panic buttons on top as well.
Don't forget cheats and auto throw break and auto duck scripts too..
And consider some of these lemmings play on easy control mode...
This game is so overtopped for noobs to feel like they are actually learning when they are getting carried by dev auto combo design
I thought at first tekken 8 is masterpiece. In the long run when you play a lot you will notice the unbalance of the game. Just like knee said
Some of the stuff in the game is just too ridiculous. Heat should not be able to be activated from the get go, let people earn it. Your opponent hits you with his heat move, you block it and he still can end you if you guess wrong. Chip damage…no, just no.
Yeah then characters at beginning should be far away from each other so that people don’t use lag switch or frame traps which they will hit you at beginning before you have a chance to get away or block 🤷♂️
Turning off mechanics would be awesome.
Imo I agree. My problem with T8 is just how hard it is fight back when getting pressured sometimes. All the moves that push back and have armor are a problem…full stop. Like dude, recovery from is too much. And the characters oppressing get too much freedom. It rewards spam. Which imo should never be what the game WANTS you to do.
It’s like the whole “when in doubt…” situation. When in doubt mash it out. When in doubt use a armored move to get out. That whole thing.
Both Knee and Arslan Ash didn't like the tekken8 because its really not fun its just crap compared to old Tekkens. My personal opinion playing since Tekken 2
Frankly, I am amazed that people are not seeing the parallels between T8 and DOA6, especially when the DOA designer and producer is WORING ON T8. Counter hit throws with more damage? Meter? Plus on block gimmick moves based on meter usage? Bounce off walls and floors that look exactly like DOA? Unbreakable grabs?
This game is pretty much DOA7 at this point. I am rather amazed no one is pointing any of this out. I feel like I'm the only sane person in the asylum.
I think people tend to really get it twisted when they say stuff like "X mechanic is for bringing in and keeping new players" Because to be honest the recent boom in fighting game popularity has nothing to do with all these games having mechanics "For casuals" it's all to do with netcode.
I am one of these recent players, I for years and years wanted to get into fighting games but never did. Why? Cause I live in the midwest with no locals and with terrible internet, playing the games were fundamentally a waste of time because of how bad the lag was. Sure I could have technically pulled through but that's a lot to ask a new player. Why am I playing Tekken 8 more than I did 7? Because I get matches faster, and my online experience is better. It's the same reason I finally DID get into fighting games with Strive, I hate that game mechanically but when it came out I could load it up, play good quality online matches quickly.
These mechanics have nothing to do with the recent new player retention in the genre- And while I know most players don't get that, I also don't think devs totally get that- which is a worrying prospect.
Love and respect the time you put in to breakdown a variety of perspectives on top of giving your own.
I've been playing hardcore since Tekken 1 and my passion for this franchise is off the charts. As a Tekken enthusiast, martial arts instructor, and content creator myself, I truly commend and appreciate your work.
Blessings to you. You're doing an amazing job 🙏🏿💯👏🏿
Thank you, Sir. Appreciate your support and kind words ☝🏾
The problem with competitive T8 is that it's just a lot of guessing that leaves little room for skill expression at the absolute highest levels. There's still a huge learning curve, but it tops out around intermediate skill and then becomes an advanced guessing game. I think it's because Tekken has never been a game about 50/50's. Tekken is a game where you can sidestep, sidewalk, duck, jump, backdash, parry, and armor through moves. Depending on who you are fighting, each defensive option beats different moves, meaning defense was extremely character-specific. A situation that locks you out of sidestepping or backdashing limits the possibilities tremendously because every other option is high/mid/low dependent. Personally I think backdashes and sidesteps/sidewalk could be more responsive to get you out of danger more quickly, and certain moves can have their tracking reduced.
Edit: I realized my comment sounds very negative, but I'm having a lot of fun with the game. I just recognize that at a high level, the game is not that complicated compared to previous Tekken games. Games do not need to be complicated to be fun, but it does give the game more longevity when it takes a while to "figure out."
maybe making one of the most agressive fighting games in existance even MORE agressive wasn't such a good idea.
at what point does having difficult defense and high knowledge checks just become unga?
also, MVC3 has a pushblock that leaves you at full screen and the fastest movement ever.
My humble opinion is this: 50/50 mechanic is not the issue as it has pretty much always been accompanied by the punishment mechanic. Yes, you have the option of either a low or a mid attack, but if I guess right, I get to punish you. If you take away 50/50 and all I need to do is learn your strings then there is literary no counter-play once I learn them. This is the reason why 10-hit combos quickly became useless after Tekken 4.
The real problem with Tekken 8 (as highlighted but not stressed), are moves that are excessively plus-frame on hit (anything more than 2+ is excessive). The fact that you are punished for correctly guessing and blocking has always been something that I felt was just inherently unfair. At first, these moves had high start-up frames, but now, literary everyone has a plus-frame move that is unavoidable. At the very least, you should always give up your natural turn after an attack. If you decide to carry on, then you should always run the risk of being countered. Taking away heat-smash plus frames but leaving the pressure tools of Dragunov, Feng, Hworang and other characters does not make sense. The "Pressure" character archetype should not exist in Tekken as it literary goes against the very fundamentals of the game. Scrap these plus-frame moves from everyone, they are the real cancer of Tekken.
In my personal opinion, Tekken 8 is fine. I find more enjoyment with the absolute abundance of combo creativity that this game has to offer (though that's being depleted with that stupid patch). And despite having really broken shit, this game is actually well balanced. You can't look at one character no matter how poor their stats are and say "There's no way to win that match up".
I do hope balancing comes in because while I'm an aggressive player, it gets overwhelming to keep up with 50 50s and make one mistake to death. That being said, I don't want people to only use safe strings and backdash indefinitely with a life lead.
Geat video! I don't use Twitter or anything so I really appreciate the breakdown of the tweet and the conversation around it.
I like that you add your own personal thoughts as well and that your tone isn't either "Tekken is ruined forever" or "this is the game now, play it the way it's meant to be played or don't play"
You made a comment about the tweet that said something like "new players will never learn by playing this game because they're just mash or use unsafe things"
I mention it because I think that same thing a lot but with T8, but it's an interesting observation that, if this is Tekken now and into the future, they actually are learning the game and us legacy players are being held back by our idea of what Tekken is and how it's played based on older games.
Personally I'm with you on (at least really hoping) the game will be toned down when the casuals inevitably move on.
I lean towards the "if I want to play and do well at a game, it's my "job" to adapt to it" opinion but... I've always played very defensively and am least drawn to rushdown characters in fighting games. Logically I can think "this is the new game" and deal with it but I can't pretend I'm personally having a fantastic time with the aggressive shift.
Anyway, here's hoping BN tunes the game in a way that makes it more enjoyable for me personally (and sounds like for a lot of legacy players)
Thanks again for the video!
I'm a former Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag 2 tournament player(and winner) and I agree with him. That being said casuals love anything Tekken or Japanese so it will continue to avoid scrutiny until more big players come out and tell the truth.
The biggest problem that i actually have with tekken 8 during defensive play, is strictly its blocking mechanic and how it reacts with character move sets. What i have found that is very apparent as a lars player compared to other mains, is that on block, my launches or critical can be repelled. I have one one chance to make contact, or be repelled and punished. most other characters have the ability to continue a string that cantinues momentum with zero opening and ends in plus frames. If lars has an obvious weakness as a whole game mechanic, the rest of the games should follow the same rules. Blocking any low, should repel on block to create an opening for mashers. Why reward a lazy play style? Just sayin man, equality
Harada is out of ideas and needs to go imo
W Take. He's a tard.
This game ended my gaming life. So much money for such a frustrating experience. I will never buy a new game.
Same here.
I've played a lot of Tekken 8 and a lot of Tekken 7
Tekken 8 *feels* really good to play. The graphics are nice, there's really nice feedback to landing hits, crunchy sounds
With friends it can be a lot of fun to just mess around and spar, but actually trying to win and do well is nigh impossible
the HEAT system is... kinda whack, they made wakeup kicks punishable, generalised all rage arts to -15 mids with super armour. I remember how stoked I was when one of my coaches told me that you can just duck under Alisa's rage art or Jin's and pulling off that perfect punish. Ironically in Tekken 8, a game where if you block you're usually punished for it, if you're not blocking you just die. There's no way to interrupt it until you do enough damage to kill. You can't call them out on it and reverse it in any way with like, a low or anything.
In low ranks they throw them out like clockwork so I block and punish, rinse and repeat. In higher ranks they'll throw them out at random and it just hits me because I'm not expecting it. Having your 10f jab punished with a whole-ass rage art will never be fun.
The game forces you into so many situations where if you don't guess right you just lose. The top characters are INSANELY busted to the point of it almost feeling pointless to play anyone else. Why play Asuka when you can just play Jun and spam the same flowchart that even Tekken Kings fall for? (and a move that heals on block)
Chip damage... battle pass... taking out features just to sell them to us later...
need I go on?
if the mechanics of the game were just slightly tuned in the other direction it would be a lot of fun, but these days I don't even feel like playing it because I know I'm just gonna get frustrated and pissed off. The mere thought of fighting other people gives me insane anxiety and this is from someone that has played several *multi-hour* deathmatches in Tekken 7 and Soul Calibur VI
I played it basically nonstop for like, a month or something when I first got it, but it was taking such a toll on my mental health that I had to step away.
Isn't it easy to fix such thing? Make Mode with new futures turn off. Solved.
I think devs are legit confused at this point.
On one end, ppl like me and many others say many fighters are too campy and non-interactive and encourage degenerate playstyles that isn't fun to look at. We enjoy volatile games that reward players for going in and making the first move rather than waiting.
On the other hand, you have patient players who hate the "ungabunga" which I get, as I believe aggression should be rewarded when its tactile rather than reckless.
This leaves the devs confused because they try to cater to one side and piss the other off. If they reward aggressive play, the game feels braindead. If they reward patience, the game's pace suffers and it becomes hard to watch. So where do we draw the line? Its a very hard balance to strike, but devs have to make it that aggressive play is either tied to difficult characters or characters that have significant weakness. You can't make it too accessible, but aggressive play does need to be viable for the game to live. After all, it IS a fighting game, right? We're trying to beat eachother's ass, not sit in a corner and wait for others. For that we play cod lol
I DIDN'T PAY $80 TO BLOCK.
"So, I took that personally" - Knee
You missed the whole point
@@servalkorion686nah bruh. U did
@@servalkorion686 it boils down to people wanting to play tekken 7 in a tekken 8 game...
this isnt tekken 7. mechanics have changed. meta has changed. playstyle has changed.
sure, right now, gameplay is super agressive.
But lets consider a super defensive gameplay for a moment...is this ideal? No coz its super boring to watch a classic defensive boring no risk, just backdash, superior defensive, and waiting out opponent making a mistake, gameplay style.
We had this gameplay for 7 years now. Its time for new meta.
@@JaceWD all i heard was "a game isn't good at all, unless it's being drasitcally different all the fucking time".
Look dude, nothing has ever stopped a player from being aggressive in older tekkens. That's the whole point of having a playstyle. Playing how you want. Wanna turtle? Do it. Wanna go head first at someone? Do it. There's no "meta" at all. A meta shouldn't even exist in a fighting game.
The whole point of any fighting game is one guy goes after the other, and the other FINDS A WAY around it.
Tekken 8 sounds lopsided as fuck with people complaining about being locked in 50/50 guesses.
@@EvilIceCream333 nobody cares what u think. Adapt or play monkey island escape on the wii.
lmao @nobody stopped u from playing agressive...
Everyone can say the same to you. Aint nobody stopping u from playing defensive in tekken 8.
Learn how to block!!
I seen people learning KBD before Tekken8 came out. bragging about it.
Tough luck, you snooze u lose. U bet on wrong horse.
Fk those KBD.
Aint nobody wanting to see that shat in tourneys. Its BORING to watch, even more annoying to play against.
Learn how to block in tekken 8 or go play monkey escape island or whatever its called. This isnt tekken 7. Its tekken 8.
It’s funny how many mechanical changes are made to these games to allegedly appeal to casuals, yet they often refuse to add the content they used to that *actually* would (team battle, tekken force, survival/endless modes, and/or options to toggle mechanics like that one tweet said).
As a casual myself I played Tag 2 for MONTHS grinding for character endings, character customization items (LUCKY BOX is one hell of a drug), and just messing around with the giant roster. Meanwhile I haven’t played 8 in a while because all of those things are either lacking or entirely absent. It’s just not as fun to pick up and play (7 was the same tbh, but at least this game has Tekken Ball I guess).
If they wanted to appeal to casuals they should've just simplified mechanics of the game. Remove korean backdashes, increase the frame window for electric fists, simplify crouch canceling. Make it so there is no hidden advantageous mechanic that requires you to google it and spend countless hours practicing.
They already tried that in Tekken 4, and people HATED it. Damn near put the franchise on its death bed despite being the coolest game in the series aesthetic wise.
@@irishpizza2823 shouldve happen here too. T8 must kill the game forever.
Ironic all the comments are screaming “stop dumbing down the game!” And now that’s literally what you are advocating for
Bruh what I don't like with Tekken 8 is blocking only works when it wants you to block and enemies do too much damage
MK1, Tekken 8, SF6 has taken micro transaction to the stratosphere $4 for each Avatar skin WOWZERS.
It’s crazy how they going crazy with micro transactions and street fighter is still the most egregious out of all them. Modern gaming practices are something else man
$4. Fuck avatar skins tho
@@M_CFV I will never forget them expensive ass tmnt skins that was hysterical
Don't leave SF out of this. The trio is united to rip off their respective playerbase.
@carlosaugusto9821 you are 100% right. Tekken 8 will win the award for worse micro transaction of all time because they are just getting started.
I think I agree with Knee on chip damage. Tekken, of all games, having chip damage is just really wild AF. ☠️
No akuma + unstable netcode + heat mechanic = I’ll stay on T7 thx
It’s so annoying when any criticism about a new game is disregarded as either “you just don’t like it cause you’re bad” or nostalgia, as if an older game couldn’t possibly be better
The talking point of those lacking in brain cells, brother.
I am one of those people that absolutely LOVES chip damage. Allow me to explain:
I really like that certain moves build up chip damage and that juggling combos do as well, because usually when it's my turn, heat engagers healing is very satisfying. It really does feel like a strong comeback mechanic.
I dislike the fact that all attacks do chip damage in heat though. I believe this shouldn't be the case.
If heat chip damage is deleted, all of a sudden chip damage becomes an advantage for the defender rather than that of the attacker. I believe this change will make people like it, especially if heat engage healing is buffed.
What I really would love to see is that the attacks that usually do chip damage become healing attacks during heat instead.
I want more healing in the game for a few reasons, but the biggest reason is that in a game heavy in 50\50s you really do need more time with the opponent in order to download their patterns. Healing helps with exactly that by prolonging the round.
Edit: I want to add an idea I just got. Imagine what happens when all attacks that deal chip damage become unsafe. If it deals a ton of chip damage - launch punishable. If it deals just a bit of chip damage - a standard punish would suffice. This would be a really good indicator for what to punish and how. And it will promote high risk high reward gameplay for the attacker while allowing the defender to gain that health back by punishing.
230% agree, this game is frustrating to play; that's why i dove deep into the fundamentals. Because of that, I'm having more fun and actually winning more. Whether it be scrubs or skilled players. I went from green to orange in a little over an hour.
I went back and play TK7 and I actually quite enjoyed it.
Me too Yen!!
I love how Geese and Akuma feels like they were straight from their games and the Customization is awesome
Plus Kunimitsu and Negan have those 2,2,2,2,2, strings....lol!
first person i see that makes neutral, logic and common sense analysis and thinks the way i do
subbed, u have my 10/10
Thank you, sir ☝🏾