More people need to understand this. I have met so many other guys who put down my interests and just say "cause it's bad". Sir, you can't even give a reason.
i hate that people think just because an artist can not blow the roof vocally like whitney or mariah then they can't sing. janet jackson's low register is so unmatched but yet people say she can't sing when she also is the queen of vocals stacking with mariah, brandy and beyoncé
Skill is not subjective. Skill is observable and largely measurable. The truth is that many artists who are artists who are currently mainstream aren’t very skilled in a technical sense, but that doesn’t mean that their work isn’t enjoyable or fun. We can and often do enjoy things that are not highly technical and masterful.
I Agree with this fully. I personally listen to some music that’s probably not the epitome of musical excellence, and I know that. Some music is just fun and you can’t tell people what to like and what not to like. But skill is kill at the end of the day. & like you said that can be measurable.
Masterful ≠ always technical tho. A good singer is not always an excellent technical vocalist, but they could master things such as as bringing a lot of emotion to their voice or maybe they were born with an extremely unique tone and master how to let that show through the most. Those aren’t technical skills. But having excellent 10/10 pitch control or being consistent almost 100% of the time? That’s technical. Don’t get me wrong, everyone SHOULD be the best at the technical side of their job that they can possibly be. U could actually injure ur voice if ur not on top of it and I’m pretty sure that happened to Adele at one point. But artist are ARTist and not engineers lol. At the end of the day I (and many) would rather listen to a unique and emotive beautiful voice that might not be technically perfect than one that is technically perfect but still bland af. Why the hell would I wanna listen to someone who sounds like 100 other ppl, just bc u can hit a high note ? And I think most ppl would agree w this bc if every great technical vocalist was appealing to the masses, we would have more famous singers lolll. The only aspect that I think u could judge objectively tho are the very basics of songwriting - bc that’s literally just a form literature, so a lyrically good song should make sense or have a point at the very least.
@@Dannalasapa yeah there’s always that voice that I love but I just CANNOT vibe with their actual music. Then there’s music that I love but know it’s technically speaking rudimentary. There’s even artists whos voice I love but can’t stand them as a person. It’s life
@@vikkidonn exactly! One comparison I always use Is Rihanna vs. Beyonce. Both blew up around the same era of music. Rihanna is not the best singer technically- she's a bit inconsistent. Beyonce is extremely technically skilled. And yet, I would rather listen to Rihanna sing over a catchy pop song over Beyonce any day. Her voice has an extremely unique and catty/fun personality, and it creates ambiance. You could not mistake her for anyone else. Beyonce on the other hand I have honestly mistook for other singers before. It really comes to show you how subjective art and voices truly are. Both women deserve their success, but for completely different reasons
The way Mariah Carey COMPLETELY fits into every single category u mentioned. Her vocals, songwriting, and musicality are ALL IMPECCABLE it’s insane how she’s SO talented!! She also composes and co-produces her music🫶🏽🔥
I love Mariah. Her vocals are undeniable. When it comes to songwriting, and this goes for Taylor swift as well, is popularity the metric we use for songwriting ability? Mariah’s and Taylor’s songs are definitely catchy, but not always very deep. Not their whole catalogs, but I’d say there are much better songwriters who don’t focus on catchy songs. I do think they are good songwriters, but I just think their songwriting abilities are overblown because of the popularity of their music
@@dramz1972 lol tbh I feel like it’s just a matter of u not having listened to a lot of Mariah songs, and this is just me totally assuming so PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong. But Mariah does like writing catchy songs, and she’s great at it, however she has lots of songs where she delves into her lyricism and poetry, I can give u a few examples so u check them out if u haven’t already to see what I’m talking about. -Close my eyes (talks abt how she had to go thru childhood the rough way and didn’t get to rlly cherish being a child) -The roof (talks abt an intimate risky experience with a lover) -Babydoll (talks on sensual intimate desires) -Outside (talks abt racism she experienced while being a biracial child) -Underneath the stars (paints a picture on an unforgettable romantic experience) -Melt Away (paints a picture on what love feels like) -Looking in (reflects on who she is and her hardships) -I am Free (talks abt someone who makes her feel liberated) ..and this is only a FRACTION of her amazing lyricism in her discography, all these songs are literally from only 2 albums😭. U don’t even have to listen to them just google them and skim thru the lyrics, most of these sound like straight up poems by LEGIT talented poets.
@@BaddieRiah yesss lamb! Mariah’s introspect tracks are so deep, the general public just don’t know!😩 My personal favorite is her song Petals because it is so poetic and tragic.🥀
@@AJLovesMC12 omg yea I was thinking of putting that one at the end of my comment too but I didn’t end up doing it only cuz 1. It would’ve been too much and I didn’t wanna make my comment too long and 2. I was only mentioning songs from Daydream and Butterfly but I was seriously debating whether still adding that song or not😩
@@CamrynSuzanne I mean... when you really start to think hard about it... it may get a bit deeper. But that's on the hearer, I doubt the writers had an existential enquiry on what are the state of the matter's conditions for goodness to arise as a feeling in mind, and came to the conclusion that a greatful spirit would assing such a name to the absense of negativity in the self. I hope you laughed with this one because that was hard to come up with 😂.
As a singer, this makes me happy, a lot of ppl think that some singers can't sing because they simply don't like their voice. Which isn't fair, you don't have to like it but don't downplay the vocal talent and technique.
stan culture ruined criticism in music. every time someone makes a fair criticism they see it as an attack on their favs and instantly go on the defense, it's crazy
No. Social Media and the internet ruined MUSIC. It’s caused some kind of syndrome to outdo others - in the news, for a minute- not with ‘talent’. The rush is not about creativity but constant MONEY grabs. Also artists’ agents AND their record companies PAY to push few ‘artists’ through heavy rotation on TV and RADIO. The stupid tabloids are ‘propping up’ the same ol’ people as well. That VIRAL internet has ruined music….. and so has that spoiled brat wannabe Taylor Swift with her limited ‘talent’.
Literally, like for example, Beyonce's new country album. I'm not a country fan, but I know this is NOT country lol it's very much a Beyonce album cosplaying with country beats / instruments but say that out load on social media and watch people start calling your job 🙈 Lmao
There’s an objective point you gotta reach before it’s subjective. It is what it is like obviously a song can be objectively out of tune or objectively overly sibilant no way around that
As a swiftie, I'm so happy you mention Taylor Swift. Subjectively, I prefer her music over beyonce, BUT I would never ever say Taylor is a better vocalist or dancer, because objectively she isn't. That doesn't mean though she is an bad vocalist or dancer, those aren't her best strenghts, but I just get so tired of people saying she is a bed musician, because she hasn't the rage some artist as beyonce have. Btw, I love your videos!!❤
@@Ichijou_Matsomoku308 agreed, when it comes to Taylor Swift and the overhype there is surrounding her… it becomes annoying. What makes someone a real musical artist is someone who was born with the gift to sing. Today people have forgotten that and anyone can become famous with no talent. Singing and vocalizing is what makes someone an artist. Not becoming popular after releasing a few songs (Ice Spice) or through social media (Olivia Rodrigo, etc). For example, the only talent Taylor Swift has is her ability to write her own songs, aside from that she can’t be called a real artist when there are actual current singers (Ariana, Mariah, Christina Aguilera, Kelly Clarkson).
@@hellomario.3875 your ass didn’t watch the video. It’s an opinion and Taylor obviously has to be a semi decent singer for it to be her career for more then 16 years. It’s people who don’t listen to her music that say she can’t sing.
Thank you for acknowledging Kehlani's voice. She is hands down one of my favorites and you can hear the Brandy inspiration in a lot of her vocal stacking and runs
Im always shook when people talk about Beyoncé or Ariana can’t sing. Like out of everyone that can’t sing good now you’re gonna choose some of the best vocalists of our generation💀
@@thatgirlkells5505 that’s simply not true. Ariana has performances that shock me to my core (never more than Mariah) but it’s up there. I guess it just depends. Mariah has a bigger range but Ariana sounds better to me imo. It’s preference. But they are both insanely talented ofc Mariah is the queen and ppl get mad over comparisons but Ariana can’t control her voice.
@@thatgirlkells5505 also singing isn’t only about power… the fact that Ariana can make high notes sound normal and effortless is actually extremely impressive.. and again I’m in no way saying she’s as good or better than them but out of everyone to compare them to she is a good candidate considering she has one of the biggest ranges of the popular singers today, can sing in whistle registry (mind u 28 seconds in her song my hair), and is going to be starring in wicked singing opera. It’s disrespectful to say she has no power or that she can’t sing when that’s factually not true.
@@Turtlelover8888 Never said she can't sing. Just said compared to the power house voices of Whitney and Mariah,she does not compare. I realize she will always be compared to those ladies due to her singing style. She just doesn't measure up to them.
Great analysis on Christina Aguilera! She is probably my favorite vocalist. Her skill level is incredible. She’s a prodigy. See her singing Aretha at 13 on Mickey Mouse club. It’s incredible I do hear people say they don’t like her voice. I honestly don’t get that, but I guess that’s the subjective part
@@thatgirlkells5505well that’s a SUBJECTIVE statement. If you want it to be OBJECTIVE, you need to NARROW down and bring out SPECIFIC examples and back them up with FACTS What singer (maybe excluding Mariah or Whitney) always uses their instrument well? NO ONE. All singers have different ways of singing improperly. But even the word “improper “ varies from singer to singer cus everyone’s vocal cords are DIFFERENT. For instance, Xtinas LIVE performance of “I love you Porgy”, you can’t say anything about. Same for “Lift me Up”. She has that vocal control. Now in other performances, she’ll have moments of not great control. But again, ALL singers have their moments
Mariah Carey is one of the best singers of all time. Glad to see some praise for her songwriting because a lot of people don’t know about it. One of the best singer songwriters ever!
Mariah is not a singer but a VOCALIST. Taylor, Lana, Billie, Madonna are singers but Mariah, Whitney, Céline, Ariana, Tori Kelly and Beyoncé are vocalists.
I feel like the subjectivity should not completely overweight objectivity and skill but its completely ok to like and listen to whatever you like subjectivily but if you listen to bad singers, don't pretend that they have as much skills and talent as the objectivily better ones
Yesss! THISSS is what i’m saying. You can’t tell people what they should’ve shouldn’t like, but my issue is when we’re talking about skill… don’t go lying😂
I think you’ll like this one because I do mention some older artist and newer artist and talk about the general scope of music! I appreciate you tuning in❤️❤️❤️
I’ve learned that pop isn’t really a genre like a lot of people try to make you believe, its more of a structure of music. Its the way the melody is, the way the lyrics are and how they’re placed and sang. it’s a sub genre if anything- I don’t really understand why people categorize a pop record as a pop record a lot of the time if I’m being completely honest. 1989 by Taylor is not just a pop record, it’s a synth pop record. Teenage dream by Katy isn’t just a pop record, it’s more of an electro pop dance record. I could go on but I won’t. The reason why I’m saying all this is because I find it damaging sometimes when people categorize pop as a genre. People often debate on whether or not Billie Eilish is a pop star, but it doesn’t matter how much she explores different genres, unless she blatantly changed the way her music works most of the time, she will always be a pop star. Also I doubt you dislike pop because of the structure, you probably just have bad experiences with genres surrounding pop music and prefer different types of music.
@@Ilovebrushingmyhorse I would say it’s mainly due to how people associate pop music and whether or not the stereotypes are good or bad I feel that it limits the amount of people that would say they consume it And concerning billie eilish I feel as tho she isn’t a pop star but is one at the same time since And I would like to ask ,since you say pop is a sub genre what is the genre that inspired it since from my perspective I can’t see any influence from any other genre besides country that could make me believe it’s a sub genre. I’m sorry if you don’t understand the points I’m trying to ask since English is not my mother tongue
Great video! This convo definitely needed to be had, because I’m tired of the rampant disregard of objective skill on these internet streets. TIED! My eye twitches every time I see someone claim [insert singer here] can’t sing simply because they don’t like their tone-as if pitch, placement, versatility, etc. are irrelevant. Quiet as it’s kept, many of the “whisper singers” are better technicians than some powerhouses. As for MJ vs Prince, as much as I loathe this debate because they’re completely different artistically, I’m more of a Mike Jack girl. Now, both are on my Mount Rushmore, but I find that many people try to discredit Michael because he wasn’t an instrumentalist and his music is soooo accessible. People forget that Mike was also a composer and songwriter. And he literally used his voice as an instrument. Plus, I find that people view pop music as mindless, fluffy, and easy to craft, and I think Michael’s art was (and is) a victim of that viewpoint. His stuff is wildly popular, yes, but it’s deceptively simple.
Yes yes yes🙌🏽 I think people lack the nuance and honestly education to critically look at music. Two things can be true. Maybe you don’t love this person’s music but if they’re genuinely talented you can give them their props. As for the prince and MJ debate. I am also a Michael Jackson girl and personally think he’s the greatest to do it. You said a word, though, with the fact that Michael uses voice as an instrument. A lot of the beats in the track he would lay on top of the beats were his voice. Genius.
About Christina... she can sing. Objectively. But she can sometimes "overdo" it., especially in her live performances. That is her preferred style. However, if you listen to her when she relaxes, she is very good and has great control. But I think that was also what she used to distinguish herself from other singers, especially Britney Spears who was her largest competitor.
Love this point. I think Christina's vocal ability is often overshadowed by the competition and media. They don't want to give her her flowers because of competition. She cannot win because the past, the rivalry, the overruns, etc etc
I think that subjectively for me, Michael was the better artist but objectively I think Prince had the technical skill,. I don't think a lot of his music landed for me personally. It could be a generational thing but then I also think about the days I used to hang out with my brother when he would be, hanging out with a few other audio engineers and they would often talk about like technicality and things like that with Michael and other musicians and I think that the best way I can describe it is some people would break it down between hard skills and soft skills. Prince had hard skills which made him be able to do a lot of things, but Michael had the soft skills that were applied in a way that just resonated with more people. I remember them having conversations about the complexities of Michael's music. They were able to identify techniques and instruments in the way that prince applied them, but when it came to Michael, they were a little bit more and awe of him mainly because while they could identify the technicalities and how simple his song were, he made them so unique (which in and of itself is complex). He may not have been able to play that many instruments, but he was able to understand them and also the sounds that he was looking for, and thinking about those conversations they were having there's a lot more complexities to Michael's music than people give credit for especially when they're comparing him to prince. I feel like comparing them is like comparing Beyoncé and Rihanna, which I know was crazy but while they were in the same vein and the same Eras, they're not really the same, technically and conceptually.
I personally hate the Michael and Prince comparison. I love both of them and think in their own right we’re very musically gifted. Prince on one hand played many instruments and managed to produce all on his own, while Michael built the entire song in his head and was overall very in control in the studio. (I know he could produce on his own and played instruments on some songs, but it wasn’t as common. He mostly co-produced.) People act like they’re one and the same when they both took very different approaches in their music, so the comparison just seems like a way for fans to fight by plotting two genius’s against each other.
What I hate abt what I call Stan Twitter arguments is when they compare two different artists who have built their careers on two separate things and say that one is “objectively better” than the other. For example ppl love to say that Ariana is “objectively a better artist than Taylor because Taylor can’t sing like Ariana” but the thing is Taylor has never marketed herself as a vocalist, she’s always sold herself as a songwriter. Vise versa, you can’t say that Taylor is a better artist bc Ariana can’t write because Ariana has never claimed to be a songwriter and has marketed herself as a vocalist
I agree. What I see a lot of times is ppl have their own idea of what skill is more important or impressive. Like ppl will compare Taylor to vocalists & claim that she’s not as good of an artist bc they deem vocal skills as more important than songwriting & musicality. But idk if it’s really fair to compare that way. U wouldn’t discredit Beyoncé for her lack of writing bc there’s various skills that an artist can bring to the table. I guess u could judge who brings more skill like Prince or Mike, but that’s as far as it goes. & even then, Prince may have more skill but personally, I prefer Mike.
As a writer I’ve noticed that songwriting is heavily discredited in the music industry as a whole (the writers strike is an example). I think it’s because songwriting isn’t able to be showcased like flashy and dramatic vocals or dance moves. The biggest artist of all time have all had ghostwriters, the songs needed to just be catchy so they could do their thing and sing/dance to it. The average person doesn’t care for the intricate plot lines and meanings of a song, they just want to jam or feel emotional (if the song is sad or something). Especially in a concert setting it’s hard to pull off storytelling when everyone is kinda of here to party. That’s why despite being a talent writer, most of Taylor Swift’s fans focus more on the entertaining drama and relationships behind her songs rather the techniques and language she uses to craft and structure her songs. I think Olivia Rodrigo figured this out and is now trying to focus on her vocals and performances and has kind of neglected her writing. Drivers License was very well written and narrative driven but her recent song Obsessed is more catchy and melodic and very danceable.
@@jackielaurens not only taylor swift fans but a lot of gp have that mentality. I think that's why folklore which she branded as a fictional album changed a lot of things regarding that. It was highly acclaimed by critics and gained her lots of new fans
12:50 haha Totally agree about the Mariah Carey vocab, I’ve noticed that before. I totally agree with you Camryn there is an objectivity to it that can’t be denied
Just because someone isn't objectively the best vocalist, rapper, dancer, or whatever doesn't mean you can't enjoy their stuff, but that doesn't mean you have to downplay objectively talented artist because it's not your taste. More people need to understand that. 😂😂
I usually like strong voices but fell in love with Bille's voice from the first moment I heard her sing. So much feeling uff! And yes Taylor is an amazing songwriter! Very good video!
your vids are always a delight!!! i feel like art shouldn't be completely absolved of critique due to subjectivity. sure, people should always have the freedom to enjoy whatever they like, but that doesn't mean music doesn't deserve constructive critique. there is a clear difference between good, meaningful, fun music and just super basic, fashion show ahh music, you know? critique is important in any social phenomena tbh.
Why thank you!! Yeah, I think both subjective and objective are complementary to one another but I just hate when people act like you can’t critically look at a piece of music. Because you definitely can.
people need to learn that you can like or dislike something without having to justify it sometimes you just dont like what the skilled and talented person does. thats okay. that doenst invalidate your opinion or their talent
She knows that but don't disrespect the person by calling them untalented when they are. Now I DREADDDD Barbara Streisand's music and I think it is extremely boring but I'm not going to sit here and say the woman can't sing or is untalented. That's nonsense and not true.
True. Otherwise opera and jazz would be the most popular music genres. I find that, for the most part, people prefer 'easy listening', no matter how technically imperfect. Predictable music in a speech range, which mere mortals can easily remember and sing along to.
@@COOKIEM260Have you listened to 'Stoney End', 'Space Captain', 'Down with love', 'Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?' or 'Minute Waltz'? I'm not that much of a fan of Barbra's post-80s stuff either, but her 60s and 70s were the bomb! Fresh, powerful, funny sometimes... Anything but boring.
As a student studying music at University, the subjectivity of music is relevant when you’re talking about PERSONAL TASTE, but skill expression, sophistication in the composition, the production, the instrumental and vocal performance, the songwriting, are all things that can be marked objectively. If music was more subjective than objective, there would be no point in a music university, there would be no purpose to a degree, because it means there are no skills and it’s just a Freeform art.
Thank you for confirming this as someone studying music! I studied dance in college and we collaborated with music students often and I saw firsthand the skill used for them to compose music, create beats, play their instrument and more. It should be respected much more
@@CamrynSuzanne this is going to sound snobby, but people who don’t understand art (all forms; dance, music, visual art, etc.) conflate personal taste and quality. I don’t like country, but is Beyoncé’s new single bad? Of course not. That doesn’t mean I have to listen to it. But I can respect it as a work of art.
I don't like to compare Michael Jackson and Prince because their music is not close enough to me to compare their artistry and objectively choose. I think objectively Michael Jackson and Prince are both pretty genius in the way they craft their music. Prince may have done it all alone when making his music but collaboration solely does not limit an artists' talent or music. When we watch behind the scenes / interviews with Michael and how he worked, it was very much Michael. He was involved in every process of the development of his sound. I think people also confuse being objective vs subjective when discussing different genres. I think Taylor Swift is an amazing Pop songwriter. I think Muni Long is an amazing R&B songwriter. The two genres need two different styles of writing. I don't think it can be objective to say one is better than the other because each genre needs it own style of writing. Some songwriters like Victoria Monet and SZA can do it all, IMO, but we can't compare apples to oranges. Overall, I think music is subjective but talent is not. A song may sound good and be good to you but we can break down the song into vocals, mixing, songwriting, etc. and be objective about those but even I have my guilty pleasure song that I don't think was created very well but I still love it. It's top down by Fifth Harmony. I think the songwriting is horrible IMO but I still bop to it.
the "i feel good cuz u i dont bad" 😭💀💀💀 btw i think that tierra whack is such an underrated songwriter, like can we talk about her last album?? btw omg i didnt know you received those horrible comments on the ice spice video, i'm speechless and i send u all my support, how could people even think to write those things ?? i truly loved the video
Jlo was crazy for that line and she probably had writers😂😭 yes Tierra Whack is a TALENT. Severely underrated. And it’s all good, I learned to tune out those comments, because there were a lot of people who respected my viewpoint and agreed. Thanks for your support always, you’re the best!
Something really irks me when someone says “that’s not my style” or whatever. Because it’s not just all about what style or genre something is, but the quality of the music. That’s why personally I defend pop so much, because there is so much TALENT that people just overlook because they don’t have an ear for it. They are so used to hearing pop that they misunderstand just how hard it actually is to make amazing pop music. And that amazing pop music isn’t actually a dime a dozen. It’s kind of rare for someone to be able to make a hit.
Maybe I’ve just been using it wrong but I’ve always interpreted “that’s not my style” to mean “it’s objectively good and I can see that but for whatever reason it doesn’t do anything for me” rather than being a dismissal
@@txwtw I can’t tell if you were asking me or OP, but if you’re asking me: absolutely! I think pop gets a lot of shit because it’s seen as basic and people like to feel cool and special. Also, because of its popularity, people do tend to be subjected to more mediocre pop than mediocre, say, metal, for example, and that can also fuel negativity towards the genre.
@@racheldare. true! Though often I find people are set in their ways about this kind of stuff and it prevents them from being able to give something a go. Which is absolutely not their prerogative I get it, but it irks me lol. Especially when it comes to pop because so many people just assume pop music requires very little talent or skill that they are so quick to dismiss it and sometimes use “it’s not for me” as a reason to not even give it a chance.
When subjectivity became personal, that's not the faulty on our side for helping them to explain, but it's on their Incapability to listen and comprehence the talking that was conveyancing. Basically, it's a "me problems"
My taste is the only criteria for me, if I like the artist, then they're the best for me, I won't demand other people to like my fave artist and I also will never hate on artists I don't like, I don't understand haters at all, but idc if someone tells me my fave artist is bad... like so what? what do you want me to do about it? I won't stop liking smth only bc you told me so
Yes, i think we also should be comfortable and what we like as well as not being so upset that other ppl don’t prefer their music. No need to defend your taste to the death of you😭
Mariah is virtuous, a heavy word which cannot be apllied to most. I love it in her, and I love the psychological effects she provokes, the jealously and pressing people's insecurities of mediocrity. And I LOVED the videos, been bindgewatching all of them. You have interesting and critical views. Regards from Brazil!
I love how mimi can be mentioned in pretty much every convo regarding musical greatness! Thank you so much for watching my vids!! So happy you’re enjoying 🫶🏽🫶🏽
omg thank u for pointing this out! people are really ignorant nowadays bc they don't know the objective truths like vocal techniques. they just personally don't like the song and call it trash without looking at the skill of the artist.
There’s so much nuance to this conversation and you nailed it. As a professional singer and a poet I’ve noticed this trend of people not having training and getting successful because of their social media presence. When they are critiques we get the “art is subjective” line. That’s not the point. I like some weird stuff that some people wouldn’t, but some art has thoughtfulness, training, and good quality behind it. Some doesn’t
Love you, you're necessary. Best videos about my favorite artists and music. Thanks for the important insight on all our behavior in this no man's land.
OMG Camryn 😂 this kind of conversation is why I watch your videos. I feel like the objectively measurable aspects of music are sooo overlooked and just totally disregarded in favour of “taste is subjective”. Like yeah it is, but there are other factors to measure something by and maybe people are just uncomfortable to say that something might not be objectively good even though they like it? I mean I certainly feel that way when I tell people I like ice spice 😂😂😂 even tho I will argue that ice sometimes has bars. SOME
Thank you for always commenting!! Yes the objectivity in music gets overlooked often especially now with stan wars. There is some music I like that I know objectively isn’t that strong BUT it’s a fun song. Imma never try to defend that song as a masterpiece & say it’s objectively good. I’m just gonna listen to my “bad song” in peace and go on about my day😂
@@CamrynSuzanne I love commenting on your videos because this is the kind of discussion I live for! I really appreciate that you put time and effort into making a space to facilitate this kind of conversation. Me too, there are some songs people just don’t need to know that I like 😂 I can like them in peace in my own little world
You can quantify things like the technology used behind the production or instrumentation,, and if the person is on time or on note, but you can’t quatify how it makes people feel.
@@CamrynSuzanne and this is coming from a person who is the hip-hop lyricist who is often overlooked, but I understand that you can’t fight what is visceral to people no matter how low quality it sounds to me.
Idk some people still argue that even vocal skill is subjective because there are people out there who think Taylor can outsing beyonce why I’ll never understand but yeah I think objectivity matters because you can dislike an artist with whatever reasoning you have and still acknowledge there talent and vise verse you can like there music and still acknowledge that they lack some skills 😭
anybody who says that I just can’t take them seriously that’s so crazy to me. And stuff like that is the reason why I made this video because that’s just disrespectful.😭
I think in the rise of social media, and the fact that a lot of these younger crops of artist are accessible, ultimately, I do think a lot of people tend to give certain artists a pass, because they like their personality, or just likes them as a person. Which, then makes them view their art in a different way. With assessability comes audience, identification, meaning, the audience is seeing a bit of themselves in this artist, making that want to support their music, even if the music is not good. I think people defend ice spice not because their music is good, but to them when you criticize her music, you’re criticizing her as a person because her music, they see as a reflection of herself. Or criticizing her music is criticizing what she represents that resonates with that.
Loved this! Art is so vast and the ways we can judge it are numerous, there's a whole subsect of philosophy asking 'what is art?' so of course there are infinite subjective ways to interpret music... but objectively, we can judge if the musician is technically skilled, naturally gifted, amateurish but showing promise, or has no skills and no talent at all. If it doesn't connect with us though, we fail to see it subjectively as art no matter how techincally excellent it is. I love the different lenses we can view people's creativity by!
Yes yes yes! That’s why I find this convo so interesting bc of course we could go on forever about subjectivity but we can’t act like there is no merit at all .
What people got to understand is when you dive into your craft, you become so much more when you really find your flow and stick with it. If a artist's music dont hit with me, I'm not trippin ill just say hey your music, not my taste but I vibe with you personally though. So insightful love it!!
Gurl…you said a lot and you definitely have people thinking! Everybody has a right to their own taste and opinions. Hopefully some people can learn to respect that and stop being so mean because someone doesn’t love who they love musically.
Gosh i love the evaluation u give to ur audience of how the industry and the state of music especially the way we view current artists who definitely can sing but just not singing to their potential. We have to be really honest at this point that music is definitely becoming more generic, with artistery going down. Yes the artists are not the main problem but many record labels probably are. Hypersexuality and mediocrity are resulting in artists not reaching their potential. We tired of the sexy sells narrative its so lame at this point. That being said,the new artist i kinda like Tyla is probably never going to reach her potential in the industry if the producers keep the focus more on her body then artistry. I miss older artists like Tina and Diana Ross. Their dedication and grace still gives me hope that artists can go back to. Ps u always put the facts out keep this work up we need someone to talk about this.❤❤
Another great video! I love your unbiased, but very educated thoughts on the different facets of the music industry and the artists. This really hit home for me because my music tastes have been criticized (largely by men, tbh), as being too pop/commercial and basic, lacking any real substance, skill, talent or uniqueness. Ive been told I "must just like anything that plays," (as in: I just listen to whatever with no standards), which is so ridiculously far from the truth! That said, the artists I listen to most are: Ariana, Mariah, Whitney, Beyoncé, Taylor, Jhene, Kehlani, Christina Aguilera, Tinashe, and a few others (but basically 3/4 of your list lol). Needless to say, each of those artists are immensly talented, whether it's their vocals, lyrics, instruments...denying they are truly gifted in whatever their specific artistic strengths are would be a literal lie. But because most of them are mainstream (and probably because they are also feminists), my music taste has been labeled shallow, etc. Meanwhile, look at the list again: my taste is awesome! And as you so poignantly explained, whether or not you like the actual beats, their voices or the lyrics is subjective!!! but their craft, their actual talent and artistry is not - that part is FACT!! I have had this discussion a few times over the years (mainly about Bey, AG and TS), but next time, I will just share the link to this video, save my breath lol! Nice work!
Girl, I loved your video! It’s the first video of yours that I see, and I really liked it. Your respectful language, your humor (LOVED those meme’s), your opinion about the topic and how you presented it. I really really enjoyed it. Totally understand and agree with your view! Thanks for making this good content ❤.
I feel as tho for something to be considered art, time and skill , someone has to put in time into something they love n the product of that is their artwork which is what makes a piece of art beautiful , it has human and passion in it.
This make me think about Neil Youngs voice cracking in "Mellow my Mind", Lou Reed recording some of his albums with a binaural recording device or Judy Garlands voice crack in the live at Carnegie hall recording during "come rain or shine". Sometimes the authentic singing is more powerful than technical skill but it still takes a different kind of high skill to reach that comfort level with your voice, delivery and aesthetic choice. authentic delivery is what its all about no matter the skill level. Great video.
diva this is my first video and i am already obsessed with the way you construct arguments and have a discussion about your pov!!! so happy to be heeeere
great video!!! 100% agree with everything you said, i actually laughed about eminem bc my mom LOVES him but as i've gotten older i really don't like his music but he's gotten praise from rap legends like he has his status for a reason. i don't think it's a bad thing to listen and like objectively bad music, some people do, but i think the internet has made it really easy for people to get sucked into fan wars when there's really no need. a lot of artists i may not like for subjective or objective reasons, i just don't bother! also you mentioned a lot of music legends, they all had to have made objectively good music in some way to become legends, i feel like with the oversaturation of music in this day in age, people think anyone can do it ps love your videos! you always have great commentary!
Thank you for watching!! Omg i was nervous i was gonna get clocked in the comments for the Eminem thing but a couple ppl are saying the same thing so maybe i’m not crazy😭
LOVED this video! I wish people would pay more attention to actually skill than just virality or the aesthetics people have that they like. People get *so* offended if you come for their artists from an objective, informed place with legit criticisms.
Good point BUT it’s tricky. There literally a saying “judge yourself before judging others” but that ONKY applies to the type of judgment that’s hateful or immoral instead of respectful…
It is self-evident as well as biblically supported that all things are subjective one's trash is another's treasure that's the freedom and beauty of choice and selection
I feel like additionally some people include their persona(or who the person likes or dislikes) as a part of saying what they can or cant do, which is apart of the subjective style someone prefers to listen to.
You do present good topic, to throw at us music enthusiasts. You mention some great singers, like Mariah Carey. She had the chance to train to become a Mezzo-Soprano / Classically Trained, but she quoted, that it requires years of training. I had a chat to ex-Nightwish singer Tarja Turunen who is Classically Trained. She told me when getting older, she can hit higher as well as lower notes. If I listen to a new artists release which I am not keen on, I will look for the positives and provide constructive criticism. A good example: I did go through the Ariana Grande’s new album. Objectively I saw Ariana present herself as a great singer, subjectively I felt the music element on the album was weak. Still the claws came out at me from a couple of people even though I constructive explained the reasons why, ignoring my positive quotes. The problem today, there is so much deception, to make you like an artist, because the way they look, how they present themselves and whether they follow a modern trend. Personally, I probably would not listen to any Taylor Swift, if it wasn’t for the music shoved in my face. Very good song writer, but not a strong singer. The biggest deception is vocal effects. There was a great show in Holland called: Beste Zangers, where there was a group of artists coming together, covering each other’s songs. Floor Jansen, (the present vocalist for Nightwish), gained a lot of popularity from being on that show. It was a good way to find Objectively how good the singer was. To conclude, I am not a Beyoncé fan. I worked at 5 of her events, even backstage at 2 of them, but even though I am not keen on her music, I would never say she cannot sing.
Yeah, this topic is completely a working matter, so there’s no conclusion . And I think that’s really fun to think about. As someone who is a really big Ariana fan, I personally think she’s uberly talented and I artistically enjoy her music. But if people have valid criticisms, I’m never going to attack them and sometimes I can see what they’re saying. It’s all about balance and nuance.
I think a lot of people when they find an artist they like become more connected to the person along with the music. If they like their personality and their style it makes them defend them more as a fan.
Hate that you got shit for speaking your mind (and also yes OBJECTIVE TRUTHS) but keep doing you girlie cause I love watching your videos and hearing your opinions and perspective
Right! People are soo crazy on the internet. I didn’t even say anything that outlandish 😭 yes, I’m a keep going and making videos because I know for the few people who don’t like what I have to say there’s so many more that want to hear what I have to say and appreciate it
I absolutely love this video! As a trained vocalist, i have literally been taught to distinguish artists based on their skills. But most people don't understand the nuance of all this. As you said, maybe it is to do with a lack of education. I feel it might have to do with being unaware of certain genres as well. Im from India and some of the most famous female musicians here are know for their extensive vocal range, particularly higher octaves. And since people weren't used to listening to lower octaves, you were often objectively seen as a bad singer if you couldn't hit those high notes. Thankfully, with more artists choosing to try out music from other countries as well as going back to traditional music, we see a lot of variety in voices today.
Also adding that immature stans should have a music lesson or two. Personally, not a fan of T Swift's singing skills. But I'd be straight up lying if I said she wasn't a fantastic lyricist. You can dislike an artist but you gotta give credit where credit is due. I agree music is an art but there are rules, there are skills. There's thing that go far behind what meets the eye. But yes, it is also subjective. There's a lot of trash music I adore simply because that's what I grew up with. Or I have fond memories of. But people need to learn to respect the craft. Anyway, love your vids, as usual ❤ Ciao!
Wow, thank you for putting your two cents in on this being a train vocalist! I feel like y’all don’t get enough respect and everything is just “subjective” but it takes a lot of hard work to be trained and skilled and something artistic and people always write it off as being easy and it’s not
@@CamrynSuzanne just a note: I am trained but I don't do music professionally. So my outlook might be limited in the practical world. But yes, so many phenomenally talented artists out there who deserve every ounce of respect because they've truly given it their all to be trained and skilled. Much love!
this is so true. you can dislike someone's personality or style without blatantly ignoring their talent
Exactly!!
Exactly. There’s a lot of good artists that happen to be total pricks
like kurt hummel said: “she may be difficult, but boy, can she sing!”
More people need to understand this. I have met so many other guys who put down my interests and just say "cause it's bad". Sir, you can't even give a reason.
Somebody needs to tell Beyoncé haters this
i hate that people think just because an artist can not blow the roof vocally like whitney or mariah then they can't sing. janet jackson's low register is so unmatched but yet people say she can't sing when she also is the queen of vocals stacking with mariah, brandy and beyoncé
Yess that is a major misconception and often summed up to “their not good” but that vocal tone can take a lot of skill and work
Agreed. Janet and Brandy have the best harmonies.
Janet just doesn't have a powerful voice. She can sing on key well and she is a great ad libber.
@@CamrynSuzanne exactly it’s a skill that can take years to master for sure
nah not beyoncé. mj instead.
Skill is not subjective. Skill is observable and largely measurable. The truth is that many artists who are artists who are currently mainstream aren’t very skilled in a technical sense, but that doesn’t mean that their work isn’t enjoyable or fun.
We can and often do enjoy things that are not highly technical and masterful.
Exactly.
I Agree with this fully. I personally listen to some music that’s probably not the epitome of musical excellence, and I know that. Some music is just fun and you can’t tell people what to like and what not to like. But skill is kill at the end of the day. & like you said that can be measurable.
Masterful ≠ always technical tho. A good singer is not always an excellent technical vocalist, but they could master things such as as bringing a lot of emotion to their voice or maybe they were born with an extremely unique tone and master how to let that show through the most. Those aren’t technical skills. But having excellent 10/10 pitch control or being consistent almost 100% of the time? That’s technical. Don’t get me wrong, everyone SHOULD be the best at the technical side of their job that they can possibly be. U could actually injure ur voice if ur not on top of it and I’m pretty sure that happened to Adele at one point. But artist are ARTist and not engineers lol. At the end of the day I (and many) would rather listen to a unique and emotive beautiful voice that might not be technically perfect than one that is technically perfect but still bland af. Why the hell would I wanna listen to someone who sounds like 100 other ppl, just bc u can hit a high note ? And I think most ppl would agree w this bc if every great technical vocalist was appealing to the masses, we would have more famous singers lolll.
The only aspect that I think u could judge objectively tho are the very basics of songwriting - bc that’s literally just a form literature, so a lyrically good song should make sense or have a point at the very least.
@@Dannalasapa yeah there’s always that voice that I love but I just CANNOT vibe with their actual music. Then there’s music that I love but know it’s technically speaking rudimentary. There’s even artists whos voice I love but can’t stand them as a person. It’s life
@@vikkidonn exactly! One comparison I always use Is Rihanna vs. Beyonce. Both blew up around the same era of music. Rihanna is not the best singer technically- she's a bit inconsistent. Beyonce is extremely technically skilled. And yet, I would rather listen to Rihanna sing over a catchy pop song over Beyonce any day. Her voice has an extremely unique and catty/fun personality, and it creates ambiance. You could not mistake her for anyone else. Beyonce on the other hand I have honestly mistook for other singers before. It really comes to show you how subjective art and voices truly are. Both women deserve their success, but for completely different reasons
The way Mariah Carey COMPLETELY fits into every single category u mentioned. Her vocals, songwriting, and musicality are ALL IMPECCABLE it’s insane how she’s SO talented!! She also composes and co-produces her music🫶🏽🔥
Forreal!! She really applies to every aspect of musical excellence and that says so much about her talent
I love Mariah. Her vocals are undeniable.
When it comes to songwriting, and this goes for Taylor swift as well, is popularity the metric we use for songwriting ability? Mariah’s and Taylor’s songs are definitely catchy, but not always very deep. Not their whole catalogs, but I’d say there are much better songwriters who don’t focus on catchy songs. I do think they are good songwriters, but I just think their songwriting abilities are overblown because of the popularity of their music
@@dramz1972 lol tbh I feel like it’s just a matter of u not having listened to a lot of Mariah songs, and this is just me totally assuming so PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong. But Mariah does like writing catchy songs, and she’s great at it, however she has lots of songs where she delves into her lyricism and poetry, I can give u a few examples so u check them out if u haven’t already to see what I’m talking about.
-Close my eyes (talks abt how she had to go thru childhood the rough way and didn’t get to rlly cherish being a child)
-The roof (talks abt an intimate risky experience with a lover)
-Babydoll (talks on sensual intimate desires)
-Outside (talks abt racism she experienced while being a biracial child)
-Underneath the stars (paints a picture on an unforgettable romantic experience)
-Melt Away (paints a picture on what love feels like)
-Looking in (reflects on who she is and her hardships)
-I am Free (talks abt someone who makes her feel liberated)
..and this is only a FRACTION of her amazing lyricism in her discography, all these songs are literally from only 2 albums😭. U don’t even have to listen to them just google them and skim thru the lyrics, most of these sound like straight up poems by LEGIT talented poets.
@@BaddieRiah yesss lamb! Mariah’s introspect tracks are so deep, the general public just don’t know!😩 My personal favorite is her song Petals because it is so poetic and tragic.🥀
@@AJLovesMC12 omg yea I was thinking of putting that one at the end of my comment too but I didn’t end up doing it only cuz 1. It would’ve been too much and I didn’t wanna make my comment too long and 2. I was only mentioning songs from Daydream and Butterfly but I was seriously debating whether still adding that song or not😩
"I feel good cause I dont feel bad" is a read on so many levels
I found this on the internet and i had to include it😭 it fit the topic so perfectly
@@CamrynSuzanne I mean... when you really start to think hard about it... it may get a bit deeper. But that's on the hearer, I doubt the writers had an existential enquiry on what are the state of the matter's conditions for goodness to arise as a feeling in mind, and came to the conclusion that a greatful spirit would assing such a name to the absense of negativity in the self. I hope you laughed with this one because that was hard to come up with 😂.
it kinda gives "she's indecisive, she can't decide" energy
As a singer, this makes me happy, a lot of ppl think that some singers can't sing because they simply don't like their voice. Which isn't fair, you don't have to like it but don't downplay the vocal talent and technique.
I had to outline that!! People just outright people’s talent in the name of “i don’t like it”. But that’s not fair to the craft
@@CamrynSuzanne thank you for that. They are way to many conceited ppl when it comes to singing
THANKYOU
Like not everyone likes riffs/runs but it DOES take talent
stan culture ruined criticism in music. every time someone makes a fair criticism they see it as an attack on their favs and instantly go on the defense, it's crazy
Like how dumbass Stan’s got mad at me for calling K-pop soulless or how about the time Stan’s got mad at me for calling bad bunny garbage
It really did , you can hardly say anything constructive without being attacked
No. Social Media and the internet ruined MUSIC. It’s caused some kind of syndrome to outdo others - in the news, for a minute- not with ‘talent’. The rush is not about creativity but constant MONEY grabs.
Also artists’ agents AND their record companies PAY to push few ‘artists’ through heavy rotation on TV and RADIO. The stupid tabloids are ‘propping up’ the same ol’ people as well.
That VIRAL internet has ruined music….. and so has that spoiled brat wannabe Taylor Swift with her limited ‘talent’.
I agree you can literally not say anything constructive or someone will find your IP address
Literally, like for example, Beyonce's new country album. I'm not a country fan, but I know this is NOT country lol it's very much a Beyonce album cosplaying with country beats / instruments but say that out load on social media and watch people start calling your job 🙈 Lmao
Feeling nervous bout this one because my heart says art should be subjective but my mind…
Let me know what ya thinkk🫣🫣
In my mind, art should be subjective but in my heart...😭 gotta curb
@@CamrynSuzanne video was so good and I definitely agree with ur points, ate as usual :)
I’ve been saying for years that music is more objective than people like to say it is, and people always get mad at me 🥴
There’s an objective point you gotta reach before it’s subjective. It is what it is like obviously a song can be objectively out of tune or objectively overly sibilant no way around that
As a swiftie, I'm so happy you mention Taylor Swift. Subjectively, I prefer her music over beyonce, BUT I would never ever say Taylor is a better vocalist or dancer, because objectively she isn't. That doesn't mean though she is an bad vocalist or dancer, those aren't her best strenghts, but I just get so tired of people saying she is a bed musician, because she hasn't the rage some artist as beyonce have.
Btw, I love your videos!!❤
Why her over Beyoncé? Ngl I hate the both of them but Beyoncé is objectively a better singer and actually made a thought provoking album(lemonade)
@@Ichijou_Matsomoku308 “subjectively” which is their opinion
@@Ichijou_Matsomoku308because it’s their opinion…
@@Ichijou_Matsomoku308 agreed, when it comes to Taylor Swift and the overhype there is surrounding her… it becomes annoying. What makes someone a real musical artist is someone who was born with the gift to sing. Today people have forgotten that and anyone can become famous with no talent. Singing and vocalizing is what makes someone an artist. Not becoming popular after releasing a few songs (Ice Spice) or through social media (Olivia Rodrigo, etc). For example, the only talent Taylor Swift has is her ability to write her own songs, aside from that she can’t be called a real artist when there are actual current singers (Ariana, Mariah, Christina Aguilera, Kelly Clarkson).
@@hellomario.3875 your ass didn’t watch the video. It’s an opinion and Taylor obviously has to be a semi decent singer for it to be her career for more then 16 years. It’s people who don’t listen to her music that say she can’t sing.
I say it all the time. I learned so many words from Mariah😂😂. She's so skilled! Building my lexicon and giving me a vibe at the same time!
No forreal! She really is a human dictionary
Miss TORI KELLY needs her flowers 😭bridge over troubled water is insannneeee
Im upset I didn’t mention her😭😭 she may be up there as the strongest vocalist period
Thank you for acknowledging Kehlani's voice. She is hands down one of my favorites and you can hear the Brandy inspiration in a lot of her vocal stacking and runs
Yess i love keh, sooo underrated! I also wish I mentioned brandy in here . They refer to her as thee vocal bible
"Lash tech music" they are BUGGIN LMAOOO.
RIGHT😭 like leave my girl alone
literally. i dont like ariana or her music but to say she cannot sing is .... something else
Im always shook when people talk about Beyoncé or Ariana can’t sing. Like out of everyone that can’t sing good now you’re gonna choose some of the best vocalists of our generation💀
I think people say that about Ariana because her name often comes up with the Whitney's and Mariah's. Compared to them she has no power in her voice.
@@thatgirlkells5505 that’s simply not true. Ariana has performances that shock me to my core (never more than Mariah) but it’s up there. I guess it just depends. Mariah has a bigger range but Ariana sounds better to me imo. It’s preference. But they are both insanely talented ofc Mariah is the queen and ppl get mad over comparisons but Ariana can’t control her voice.
@@thatgirlkells5505 also singing isn’t only about power… the fact that Ariana can make high notes sound normal and effortless is actually extremely impressive.. and again I’m in no way saying she’s as good or better than them but out of everyone to compare them to she is a good candidate considering she has one of the biggest ranges of the popular singers today, can sing in whistle registry (mind u 28 seconds in her song my hair), and is going to be starring in wicked singing opera. It’s disrespectful to say she has no power or that she can’t sing when that’s factually not true.
@@Turtlelover8888 Never said she can't sing. Just said compared to the power house voices of Whitney and Mariah,she does not compare. I realize she will always be compared to those ladies due to her singing style. She just doesn't measure up to them.
When you said people call Kehlani "lash tech music", I damn near spit my drink out because that is wild 😭💀
It’s sooo disrespectful 😭
@@CamrynSuzanne I wonder why on earth would they say that and who even came up with that? 🤣😭. What does it even mean
@@sunnni_ Right like why is the insult so specific? 😭😭😭
@@EricSmith-zm8do like what does it even mean? 🤣😭😭
im bout to whoop ass fr 😭
Great analysis on Christina Aguilera! She is probably my favorite vocalist. Her skill level is incredible. She’s a prodigy. See her singing Aretha at 13 on Mickey Mouse club. It’s incredible
I do hear people say they don’t like her voice. I honestly don’t get that, but I guess that’s the subjective part
Yesss that’s where I think ppl get mixed up! Like fineee if you don’t prefer her voice but to say she just can’t sing is crazy
@@CamrynSuzanneShe definitely doesn't use her instrument well.
@@thatgirlkells5505well that’s a SUBJECTIVE statement. If you want it to be OBJECTIVE, you need to NARROW down and bring out SPECIFIC examples and back them up with FACTS
What singer (maybe excluding Mariah or Whitney) always uses their instrument well? NO ONE. All singers have different ways of singing improperly. But even the word “improper “ varies from singer to singer cus everyone’s vocal cords are DIFFERENT. For instance, Xtinas LIVE performance of “I love you Porgy”, you can’t say anything about. Same for “Lift me Up”. She has that vocal control. Now in other performances, she’ll have moments of not great control. But again, ALL singers have their moments
Nice to see a fellow fighter here! Loved Xtina since 1999❤❤
Mariah Carey is one of the best singers of all time. Glad to see some praise for her songwriting because a lot of people don’t know about it. One of the best singer songwriters ever!
Yup!! Literally one if the greatest! I believe she wrote 18 of her 19 #1’s . Those are legendary stats
Mariah is not a singer but a VOCALIST. Taylor, Lana, Billie, Madonna are singers but Mariah, Whitney, Céline, Ariana, Tori Kelly and Beyoncé are vocalists.
That Alicia Keys “AAAHH” was the most relatable thing I think I’ve ever seen 😂😂😂 love it
I wasss shook😂😂😂
I've never seen that footage of Alicia Keys. Are those recent because all the old videos I found she sounded phenomenal.
I feel like the subjectivity should not completely overweight objectivity and skill but its completely ok to like and listen to whatever you like subjectivily but if you listen to bad singers, don't pretend that they have as much skills and talent as the objectivily better ones
Yesss! THISSS is what i’m saying. You can’t tell people what they should’ve shouldn’t like, but my issue is when we’re talking about skill… don’t go lying😂
Preach 👏🏼
Also there are some people who are industry plants and can we call it art? Or maybe a product
Exactly!
Like Ice Spice. I love her music to DEATH but don't try to tell me she's mastered stage presence or the pen game yet.
Personally I don’t like pop music but I love hearing another person’s perspective on music be it pop or anything.luv ❤❤❤
I think you’ll like this one because I do mention some older artist and newer artist and talk about the general scope of music! I appreciate you tuning in❤️❤️❤️
Same!!!! The only pop I listen to is alternative pop, I agree with you, and she is actually interesting!
I’ve learned that pop isn’t really a genre like a lot of people try to make you believe, its more of a structure of music. Its the way the melody is, the way the lyrics are and how they’re placed and sang. it’s a sub genre if anything- I don’t really understand why people categorize a pop record as a pop record a lot of the time if I’m being completely honest. 1989 by Taylor is not just a pop record, it’s a synth pop record. Teenage dream by Katy isn’t just a pop record, it’s more of an electro pop dance record. I could go on but I won’t.
The reason why I’m saying all this is because I find it damaging sometimes when people categorize pop as a genre. People often debate on whether or not Billie Eilish is a pop star, but it doesn’t matter how much she explores different genres, unless she blatantly changed the way her music works most of the time, she will always be a pop star.
Also I doubt you dislike pop because of the structure, you probably just have bad experiences with genres surrounding pop music and prefer different types of music.
@@Ilovebrushingmyhorse I would say it’s mainly due to how people associate pop music and whether or not the stereotypes are good or bad I feel that it limits the amount of people that would say they consume it
And concerning billie eilish I feel as tho she isn’t a pop star but is one at the same time since
And I would like to ask ,since you say pop is a sub genre what is the genre that inspired it since from my perspective I can’t see any influence from any other genre besides country that could make me believe it’s a sub genre.
I’m sorry if you don’t understand the points I’m trying to ask since English is not my mother tongue
I appreciate you showing love to the GOAT Whitney Houston. Celine Dion is another incredible gifted LIVE Vocalist ❤️
Yes yes!!🙌🏽
Great video! This convo definitely needed to be had, because I’m tired of the rampant disregard of objective skill on these internet streets. TIED! My eye twitches every time I see someone claim [insert singer here] can’t sing simply because they don’t like their tone-as if pitch, placement, versatility, etc. are irrelevant. Quiet as it’s kept, many of the “whisper singers” are better technicians than some powerhouses.
As for MJ vs Prince, as much as I loathe this debate because they’re completely different artistically, I’m more of a Mike Jack girl. Now, both are on my Mount Rushmore, but I find that many people try to discredit Michael because he wasn’t an instrumentalist and his music is soooo accessible. People forget that Mike was also a composer and songwriter. And he literally used his voice as an instrument. Plus, I find that people view pop music as mindless, fluffy, and easy to craft, and I think Michael’s art was (and is) a victim of that viewpoint. His stuff is wildly popular, yes, but it’s deceptively simple.
Yes yes yes🙌🏽 I think people lack the nuance and honestly education to critically look at music. Two things can be true. Maybe you don’t love this person’s music but if they’re genuinely talented you can give them their props. As for the prince and MJ debate. I am also a Michael Jackson girl and personally think he’s the greatest to do it. You said a word, though, with the fact that Michael uses voice as an instrument. A lot of the beats in the track he would lay on top of the beats were his voice. Genius.
About Christina... she can sing. Objectively. But she can sometimes "overdo" it., especially in her live performances. That is her preferred style. However, if you listen to her when she relaxes, she is very good and has great control. But I think that was also what she used to distinguish herself from other singers, especially Britney Spears who was her largest competitor.
Love this point.
I think Christina's vocal ability is often overshadowed by the competition and media. They don't want to give her her flowers because of competition. She cannot win because the past, the rivalry, the overruns, etc etc
Exactly. I really don't like when she oversings and I'm not a fan of her tone but i really love her songs "beautiful" and "fighter".
Her song "Ain't no other man" is one of her stand out songs because of the opening run she does.
@@pigizmo i feel like Christina is actually overrated. She’s not consistent and sounds pitchy a lot of the times she’s trying too hard.
Well said!
I think that subjectively for me, Michael was the better artist but objectively I think Prince had the technical skill,. I don't think a lot of his music landed for me personally. It could be a generational thing but then I also think about the days I used to hang out with my brother when he would be, hanging out with a few other audio engineers and they would often talk about like technicality and things like that with Michael and other musicians and I think that the best way I can describe it is some people would break it down between hard skills and soft skills. Prince had hard skills which made him be able to do a lot of things, but Michael had the soft skills that were applied in a way that just resonated with more people. I remember them having conversations about the complexities of Michael's music. They were able to identify techniques and instruments in the way that prince applied them, but when it came to Michael, they were a little bit more and awe of him mainly because while they could identify the technicalities and how simple his song were, he made them so unique (which in and of itself is complex). He may not have been able to play that many instruments, but he was able to understand them and also the sounds that he was looking for, and thinking about those conversations they were having there's a lot more complexities to Michael's music than people give credit for especially when they're comparing him to prince. I feel like comparing them is like comparing Beyoncé and Rihanna, which I know was crazy but while they were in the same vein and the same Eras, they're not really the same, technically and conceptually.
Eloquently said!
I personally hate the Michael and Prince comparison. I love both of them and think in their own right we’re very musically gifted. Prince on one hand played many instruments and managed to produce all on his own, while Michael built the entire song in his head and was overall very in control in the studio.
(I know he could produce on his own and played instruments on some songs, but it wasn’t as common. He mostly co-produced.)
People act like they’re one and the same when they both took very different approaches in their music, so the comparison just seems like a way for fans to fight by plotting two genius’s against each other.
Im so glad you said this About Xtina cause she's such an amazing singer ❤
She iss👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I LOVE her too! Legendary vocalist. Especially in her “Bound to You”;
What I hate abt what I call Stan Twitter arguments is when they compare two different artists who have built their careers on two separate things and say that one is “objectively better” than the other. For example ppl love to say that Ariana is “objectively a better artist than Taylor because Taylor can’t sing like Ariana” but the thing is Taylor has never marketed herself as a vocalist, she’s always sold herself as a songwriter. Vise versa, you can’t say that Taylor is a better artist bc Ariana can’t write because Ariana has never claimed to be a songwriter and has marketed herself as a vocalist
I agree. What I see a lot of times is ppl have their own idea of what skill is more important or impressive. Like ppl will compare Taylor to vocalists & claim that she’s not as good of an artist bc they deem vocal skills as more important than songwriting & musicality. But idk if it’s really fair to compare that way. U wouldn’t discredit Beyoncé for her lack of writing bc there’s various skills that an artist can bring to the table. I guess u could judge who brings more skill like Prince or Mike, but that’s as far as it goes. & even then, Prince may have more skill but personally, I prefer Mike.
As a writer I’ve noticed that songwriting is heavily discredited in the music industry as a whole (the writers strike is an example). I think it’s because songwriting isn’t able to be showcased like flashy and dramatic vocals or dance moves. The biggest artist of all time have all had ghostwriters, the songs needed to just be catchy so they could do their thing and sing/dance to it. The average person doesn’t care for the intricate plot lines and meanings of a song, they just want to jam or feel emotional (if the song is sad or something). Especially in a concert setting it’s hard to pull off storytelling when everyone is kinda of here to party.
That’s why despite being a talent writer, most of Taylor Swift’s fans focus more on the entertaining drama and relationships behind her songs rather the techniques and language she uses to craft and structure her songs. I think Olivia Rodrigo figured this out and is now trying to focus on her vocals and performances and has kind of neglected her writing. Drivers License was very well written and narrative driven but her recent song Obsessed is more catchy and melodic and very danceable.
I promise you, if Taylor swift fans were just there for the drama, they wouldn't be going to her concerts or buying her music.@@jackielaurens
@@jackielaurens not only taylor swift fans but a lot of gp have that mentality. I think that's why folklore which she branded as a fictional album changed a lot of things regarding that. It was highly acclaimed by critics and gained her lots of new fans
@@nupurmishra346 folklore wasn't actually well received by her old fans but she gained more insighting fans after.
12:50 haha
Totally agree about the Mariah Carey vocab, I’ve noticed that before. I totally agree with you Camryn there is an objectivity to it that can’t be denied
Like it’s TOO good🙌🏽
Just because someone isn't objectively the best vocalist, rapper, dancer, or whatever doesn't mean you can't enjoy their stuff, but that doesn't mean you have to downplay objectively talented artist because it's not your taste. More people need to understand that. 😂😂
yes yes yes, ive always said this.
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PPL IN THE BACK
You have a very good way of evaluating things. Very rational
Thank you! I really really try to be balanced
I usually like strong voices but fell in love with Bille's voice from the first moment I heard her sing. So much feeling uff! And yes Taylor is an amazing songwriter! Very good video!
your vids are always a delight!!! i feel like art shouldn't be completely absolved of critique due to subjectivity. sure, people should always have the freedom to enjoy whatever they like, but that doesn't mean music doesn't deserve constructive critique. there is a clear difference between good, meaningful, fun music and just super basic, fashion show ahh music, you know? critique is important in any social phenomena tbh.
Why thank you!! Yeah, I think both subjective and objective are complementary to one another but I just hate when people act like you can’t critically look at a piece of music. Because you definitely can.
people need to learn that you can like or dislike something without having to justify it
sometimes you just dont like what the skilled and talented person does. thats okay. that doenst invalidate your opinion or their talent
She knows that but don't disrespect the person by calling them untalented when they are. Now I DREADDDD Barbara Streisand's music and I think it is extremely boring but I'm not going to sit here and say the woman can't sing or is untalented. That's nonsense and not true.
Exactlyyy
@@COOKIEM260 oh! The "you" wasnt meamt toward her!
That just how i talk it was meant in lile a general way!!
True. Otherwise opera and jazz would be the most popular music genres. I find that, for the most part, people prefer 'easy listening', no matter how technically imperfect. Predictable music in a speech range, which mere mortals can easily remember and sing along to.
@@COOKIEM260Have you listened to 'Stoney End', 'Space Captain', 'Down with love', 'Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?' or 'Minute Waltz'? I'm not that much of a fan of Barbra's post-80s stuff either, but her 60s and 70s were the bomb! Fresh, powerful, funny sometimes... Anything but boring.
As a student studying music at University, the subjectivity of music is relevant when you’re talking about PERSONAL TASTE, but skill expression, sophistication in the composition, the production, the instrumental and vocal performance, the songwriting, are all things that can be marked objectively.
If music was more subjective than objective, there would be no point in a music university, there would be no purpose to a degree, because it means there are no skills and it’s just a Freeform art.
Thank you for confirming this as someone studying music! I studied dance in college and we collaborated with music students often and I saw firsthand the skill used for them to compose music, create beats, play their instrument and more. It should be respected much more
@@CamrynSuzanne this is going to sound snobby, but people who don’t understand art (all forms; dance, music, visual art, etc.) conflate personal taste and quality.
I don’t like country, but is Beyoncé’s new single bad? Of course not. That doesn’t mean I have to listen to it. But I can respect it as a work of art.
Well said
why am i being forced to study a hundred books on literature theory if there's no objective quality to art 😭
See that’s why I am a huge proponent for music having objective qualities bc there are people studying thisssss !!! They not studying for nothing
MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY.
Literature student here.
I don't like to compare Michael Jackson and Prince because their music is not close enough to me to compare their artistry and objectively choose. I think objectively Michael Jackson and Prince are both pretty genius in the way they craft their music. Prince may have done it all alone when making his music but collaboration solely does not limit an artists' talent or music. When we watch behind the scenes / interviews with Michael and how he worked, it was very much Michael. He was involved in every process of the development of his sound. I think people also confuse being objective vs subjective when discussing different genres. I think Taylor Swift is an amazing Pop songwriter. I think Muni Long is an amazing R&B songwriter. The two genres need two different styles of writing. I don't think it can be objective to say one is better than the other because each genre needs it own style of writing. Some songwriters like Victoria Monet and SZA can do it all, IMO, but we can't compare apples to oranges. Overall, I think music is subjective but talent is not. A song may sound good and be good to you but we can break down the song into vocals, mixing, songwriting, etc. and be objective about those but even I have my guilty pleasure song that I don't think was created very well but I still love it. It's top down by Fifth Harmony. I think the songwriting is horrible IMO but I still bop to it.
the "i feel good cuz u i dont bad" 😭💀💀💀
btw i think that tierra whack is such an underrated songwriter, like can we talk about her last album??
btw omg i didnt know you received those horrible comments on the ice spice video, i'm speechless and i send u all my support, how could people even think to write those things ??
i truly loved the video
Jlo was crazy for that line and she probably had writers😂😭 yes Tierra Whack is a TALENT. Severely underrated. And it’s all good, I learned to tune out those comments, because there were a lot of people who respected my viewpoint and agreed. Thanks for your support always, you’re the best!
Sure JLo is objectively not as good a vocalist as Mariah, but JLo is objectively a better performer
Something really irks me when someone says “that’s not my style” or whatever. Because it’s not just all about what style or genre something is, but the quality of the music. That’s why personally I defend pop so much, because there is so much TALENT that people just overlook because they don’t have an ear for it. They are so used to hearing pop that they misunderstand just how hard it actually is to make amazing pop music. And that amazing pop music isn’t actually a dime a dozen. It’s kind of rare for someone to be able to make a hit.
Maybe I’ve just been using it wrong but I’ve always interpreted “that’s not my style” to mean “it’s objectively good and I can see that but for whatever reason it doesn’t do anything for me” rather than being a dismissal
Do you think that pop is an overhated genre? I personally think so
@@txwtw I can’t tell if you were asking me or OP, but if you’re asking me: absolutely! I think pop gets a lot of shit because it’s seen as basic and people like to feel cool and special. Also, because of its popularity, people do tend to be subjected to more mediocre pop than mediocre, say, metal, for example, and that can also fuel negativity towards the genre.
@@racheldare. true! Though often I find people are set in their ways about this kind of stuff and it prevents them from being able to give something a go. Which is absolutely not their prerogative I get it, but it irks me lol. Especially when it comes to pop because so many people just assume pop music requires very little talent or skill that they are so quick to dismiss it and sometimes use “it’s not for me” as a reason to not even give it a chance.
Yeah, in the video that’s more so how I was using it but I also see his side of it
When subjectivity became personal, that's not the faulty on our side for helping them to explain, but it's on their Incapability to listen and comprehence the talking that was conveyancing.
Basically, it's a "me problems"
My taste is the only criteria for me, if I like the artist, then they're the best for me, I won't demand other people to like my fave artist and I also will never hate on artists I don't like, I don't understand haters at all, but idc if someone tells me my fave artist is bad... like so what? what do you want me to do about it? I won't stop liking smth only bc you told me so
Yes, i think we also should be comfortable and what we like as well as not being so upset that other ppl don’t prefer their music. No need to defend your taste to the death of you😭
Right??
Mariah is virtuous, a heavy word which cannot be apllied to most. I love it in her, and I love the psychological effects she provokes, the jealously and pressing people's insecurities of mediocrity.
And I LOVED the videos, been bindgewatching all of them. You have interesting and critical views.
Regards from Brazil!
I love how mimi can be mentioned in pretty much every convo regarding musical greatness! Thank you so much for watching my vids!! So happy you’re enjoying 🫶🏽🫶🏽
omg thank u for pointing this out! people are really ignorant nowadays bc they don't know the objective truths like vocal techniques. they just personally don't like the song and call it trash without looking at the skill of the artist.
There’s so much nuance to this conversation and you nailed it. As a professional singer and a poet I’ve noticed this trend of people not having training and getting successful because of their social media presence. When they are critiques we get the “art is subjective” line. That’s not the point. I like some weird stuff that some people wouldn’t, but some art has thoughtfulness, training, and good quality behind it. Some doesn’t
Ngl I’m more of a indie/alt, rock and metal guy but I like your channel
I appreciate you tuning in🙌🏽
Me too tbh
I love how well spoken you are!! And beautiful:))
Thank you!!
Love you, you're necessary. Best videos about my favorite artists and music. Thanks for the important insight on all our behavior in this no man's land.
Thank you 😊😊
When you said that’s a lie! I laughed! You are gooood & hilarious! That Alicia Keys note had me rolling
😭😂
OMG Camryn 😂 this kind of conversation is why I watch your videos. I feel like the objectively measurable aspects of music are sooo overlooked and just totally disregarded in favour of “taste is subjective”. Like yeah it is, but there are other factors to measure something by and maybe people are just uncomfortable to say that something might not be objectively good even though they like it? I mean I certainly feel that way when I tell people I like ice spice 😂😂😂 even tho I will argue that ice sometimes has bars. SOME
Thank you for always commenting!! Yes the objectivity in music gets overlooked often especially now with stan wars. There is some music I like that I know objectively isn’t that strong BUT it’s a fun song. Imma never try to defend that song as a masterpiece & say it’s objectively good. I’m just gonna listen to my “bad song” in peace and go on about my day😂
@@CamrynSuzanne I love commenting on your videos because this is the kind of discussion I live for! I really appreciate that you put time and effort into making a space to facilitate this kind of conversation.
Me too, there are some songs people just don’t need to know that I like 😂 I can like them in peace in my own little world
You can quantify things like the technology used behind the production or instrumentation,, and if the person is on time or on note, but you can’t quatify how it makes people feel.
Absolutely agree
@@CamrynSuzanne and this is coming from a person who is the hip-hop lyricist who is often overlooked, but I understand that you can’t fight what is visceral to people no matter how low quality it sounds to me.
@@CamrynSuzannelmfao but usually if I don’t like it,it’s really not that good
Idk some people still argue that even vocal skill is subjective because there are people out there who think Taylor can outsing beyonce why I’ll never understand but yeah I think objectivity matters because you can dislike an artist with whatever reasoning you have and still acknowledge there talent and vise verse you can like there music and still acknowledge that they lack some skills 😭
anybody who says that I just can’t take them seriously that’s so crazy to me. And stuff like that is the reason why I made this video because that’s just disrespectful.😭
WHAT?? i love taylors music but saying she can outsing beyonce??? naaa
Finally someone has said this I always think abt this
…and you’re a beautiful dancer too! Go sis!
😊 thank you
I think in the rise of social media, and the fact that a lot of these younger crops of artist are accessible, ultimately, I do think a lot of people tend to give certain artists a pass, because they like their personality, or just likes them as a person. Which, then makes them view their art in a different way. With assessability comes audience, identification, meaning, the audience is seeing a bit of themselves in this artist, making that want to support their music, even if the music is not good. I think people defend ice spice not because their music is good, but to them when you criticize her music, you’re criticizing her as a person because her music, they see as a reflection of herself. Or criticizing her music is criticizing what she represents that resonates with that.
Loved this! Art is so vast and the ways we can judge it are numerous, there's a whole subsect of philosophy asking 'what is art?' so of course there are infinite subjective ways to interpret music... but objectively, we can judge if the musician is technically skilled, naturally gifted, amateurish but showing promise, or has no skills and no talent at all.
If it doesn't connect with us though, we fail to see it subjectively as art no matter how techincally excellent it is. I love the different lenses we can view people's creativity by!
Yes yes yes! That’s why I find this convo so interesting bc of course we could go on forever about subjectivity but we can’t act like there is no merit at all .
Thanks for the Xtina praise. Love her
That alicia keys cracked voice shocked me in those streets
😂
Cackling
😂😂😂😂😂
I LOVE THIS VIDEO!!!! 😂😂"I feel good because I dont feel bad" 😂😂
❤
Had to add that😂😂
I already know I’m gonna like this one!
I hope you do!!
I love your way of speaking :)
Thank you!!
You absolutely nailed this video. I agree with every single word you said. Keep it up. I'm suprised you don't have over a 100k subscribers. ❤❤❤
I appreciate that! We will get there one day!
vividly emblazoned in my mind
I feel good cause I don't feel bad
instant subscribed. we love a shady queen
Omg😭😂 I had to do it it just explained my point so well
LMFAO at the Jlo shade
I found that on the internet and i just had to add it😭
U never seem to miss a beat! On how I feel about shit! ❤❤❤❤❤
Glad i can be the voice!!!
Absolutely love this video!
Thank you so much!!
What people got to understand is when you dive into your craft, you become so much more when you really find your flow and stick with it. If a artist's music dont hit with me, I'm not trippin ill just say hey your music, not my taste but I vibe with you personally though. So insightful love it!!
THIS IS THE BEST MUSIC COMMENTARY VIDEO OF ALL TIME & NO I'M NOT JOKING. FLAWLESS & WELL PUT IDEAS & THOUGHTS 👏
AHH THANK YOUU❤️❤️❤️
@@CamrynSuzanne NP 🫡
Gurl…you said a lot and you definitely have people thinking! Everybody has a right to their own taste and opinions. Hopefully some people can learn to respect that and stop being so mean because someone doesn’t love who they love musically.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
i was just on your channel earlier hoping we’d get another video soon. this is really one of my comfort channels
Omg🥺 so glad i could deliver!
@@CamrynSuzanne❤
Gosh i love the evaluation u give to ur audience of how the industry and the state of music especially the way we view current artists who definitely can sing but just not singing to their potential. We have to be really honest at this point that music is definitely becoming more generic, with artistery going down. Yes the artists are not the main problem but many record labels probably are. Hypersexuality and mediocrity are resulting in artists not reaching their potential. We tired of the sexy sells narrative its so lame at this point. That being said,the new artist i kinda like Tyla is probably never going to reach her potential in the industry if the producers keep the focus more on her body then artistry. I miss older artists like Tina and Diana Ross. Their dedication and grace still gives me hope that artists can go back to. Ps u always put the facts out keep this work up we need someone to talk about this.❤❤
Cam’s back with another video! 🔥
You already know!
Another great video! I love your unbiased, but very educated thoughts on the different facets of the music industry and the artists. This really hit home for me because my music tastes have been criticized (largely by men, tbh), as being too pop/commercial and basic, lacking any real substance, skill, talent or uniqueness. Ive been told I "must just like anything that plays," (as in: I just listen to whatever with no standards), which is so ridiculously far from the truth! That said, the artists I listen to most are: Ariana, Mariah, Whitney, Beyoncé, Taylor, Jhene, Kehlani, Christina Aguilera, Tinashe, and a few others (but basically 3/4 of your list lol). Needless to say, each of those artists are immensly talented, whether it's their vocals, lyrics, instruments...denying they are truly gifted in whatever their specific artistic strengths are would be a literal lie. But because most of them are mainstream (and probably because they are also feminists), my music taste has been labeled shallow, etc. Meanwhile, look at the list again: my taste is awesome! And as you so poignantly explained, whether or not you like the actual beats, their voices or the lyrics is subjective!!! but their craft, their actual talent and artistry is not - that part is FACT!! I have had this discussion a few times over the years (mainly about Bey, AG and TS), but next time, I will just share the link to this video, save my breath lol! Nice work!
started with a full cup of tea and its already finished by the end of the video 😃😃
Girl, I loved your video! It’s the first video of yours that I see, and I really liked it. Your respectful language, your humor (LOVED those meme’s), your opinion about the topic and how you presented it. I really really enjoyed it. Totally understand and agree with your view! Thanks for making this good content ❤.
❤
Wow thank youuu!!🥺 i am so happy you found this video.
I feel as tho for something to be considered art, time and skill , someone has to put in time into something they love n the product of that is their artwork which is what makes a piece of art beautiful , it has human and passion in it.
I like that, so do you think if someone doesn’t have those factors when making a piece of work is that not considered art?
An articulated eating of those without the ability to believe more than one thing at once. 👏🏽
This make me think about Neil Youngs voice cracking in "Mellow my Mind", Lou Reed recording some of his albums with a binaural recording device or Judy Garlands voice crack in the live at Carnegie hall recording during "come rain or shine". Sometimes the authentic singing is more powerful than technical skill but it still takes a different kind of high skill to reach that comfort level with your voice, delivery and aesthetic choice. authentic delivery is what its all about no matter the skill level. Great video.
diva this is my first video and i am already obsessed with the way you construct arguments and have a discussion about your pov!!! so happy to be heeeere
Thank you so much!!❤️❤️❤️
Fellow Detroit Native ❤️ Much love to you !! New Subscriber 🥂
Oh hey! Detroit does it best🥂
girlll you deserve WAYYY more subs 😭😭 my mouth OPENED when you said youre on the road to 30k BRO i thought ur like in millions
I’ve been at this for years😭 whats crazy is i started this year at 3.24k !! We goin up! I appreciate youu🩷
@@CamrynSuzanneim sure youll reach at least 100k by the end of this year!!
Country Taylor Swift is honestly my favorite era of her music, it makes me feel so nostalgic. (I was 8 when Love Story came out lol)
Agreed! She was in her bag with her country music
lol youre a baby. I was 17 when love story came out
great video!!! 100% agree with everything you said, i actually laughed about eminem bc my mom LOVES him but as i've gotten older i really don't like his music but he's gotten praise from rap legends like he has his status for a reason. i don't think it's a bad thing to listen and like objectively bad music, some people do, but i think the internet has made it really easy for people to get sucked into fan wars when there's really no need. a lot of artists i may not like for subjective or objective reasons, i just don't bother! also you mentioned a lot of music legends, they all had to have made objectively good music in some way to become legends, i feel like with the oversaturation of music in this day in age, people think anyone can do it ps love your videos! you always have great commentary!
Thank you for watching!! Omg i was nervous i was gonna get clocked in the comments for the Eminem thing but a couple ppl are saying the same thing so maybe i’m not crazy😭
you're literally just right lol. and yes, stans are crazy
LOVED this video! I wish people would pay more attention to actually skill than just virality or the aesthetics people have that they like. People get *so* offended if you come for their artists from an objective, informed place with legit criticisms.
Thank you thank you for watching!
I loveeeee this video!! Great topic❤
Thank you thank youu🙏🏽🙏🏽☺️
Great video! Love the editing. I will employ the lesson in this video & say this is an objectively well made video.
Awe thanks❤️ i see what you did there haha
👍🏼
Im ready to see the chaos unfold😭😭
It has begun 😂
@@CamrynSuzanne oh no😭
It's like when people say "don't judge," you're literally saying a person cannot have an opinion.
Exactly this
Good point BUT it’s tricky. There literally a saying “judge yourself before judging others” but that ONKY applies to the type of judgment that’s hateful or immoral instead of respectful…
Great analysis 🎯
Thank you!!
It is self-evident as well as biblically supported that all things are subjective one's trash is another's treasure that's the freedom and beauty of choice and selection
I feel like additionally some people include their persona(or who the person likes or dislikes) as a part of saying what they can or cant do, which is apart of the subjective style someone prefers to listen to.
This!!
You do present good topic, to throw at us music enthusiasts.
You mention some great singers, like Mariah Carey. She had the chance to train to become a Mezzo-Soprano / Classically Trained, but she quoted, that it requires years of training.
I had a chat to ex-Nightwish singer Tarja Turunen who is Classically Trained. She told me when getting older, she can hit higher as well as lower notes.
If I listen to a new artists release which I am not keen on, I will look for the positives and provide constructive criticism.
A good example: I did go through the Ariana Grande’s new album. Objectively I saw Ariana present herself as a great singer, subjectively I felt the music element on the album was weak. Still the claws came out at me from a couple of people even though I constructive explained the reasons why, ignoring my positive quotes.
The problem today, there is so much deception, to make you like an artist, because the way they look, how they present themselves and whether they follow a modern trend. Personally, I probably would not listen to any Taylor Swift, if it wasn’t for the music shoved in my face. Very good song writer, but not a strong singer. The biggest deception is vocal effects.
There was a great show in Holland called: Beste Zangers, where there was a group of artists coming together, covering each other’s songs. Floor Jansen, (the present vocalist for Nightwish), gained a lot of popularity from being on that show. It was a good way to find Objectively how good the singer was.
To conclude, I am not a Beyoncé fan. I worked at 5 of her events, even backstage at 2 of them, but even though I am not keen on her music, I would never say she cannot sing.
Yeah, this topic is completely a working matter, so there’s no conclusion . And I think that’s really fun to think about. As someone who is a really big Ariana fan, I personally think she’s uberly talented and I artistically enjoy her music. But if people have valid criticisms, I’m never going to attack them and sometimes I can see what they’re saying. It’s all about balance and nuance.
We gotta normalize metro-Detroit girlies not liking Eminem 😭
Please 😭😂
@@CamrynSuzanneyou gotta respect his song “Mockingbird tho”. It’s very heartfelt…
Off topic, but I’m glad my music taste is versed. I listen to oldies, rap, R&B, gospel, and even pop. Love that for me ✨.
Yesss, that’s the best way to be👏🏽
Great topic & something that I talk about often.
Hey girl! I’m a Michigander too! Live only 45 min from Detroit
I think a lot of people when they find an artist they like become more connected to the person along with the music. If they like their personality and their style it makes them defend them more as a fan.
110% and I think that can cause ppl to become jaded and a bit delusional when we discuss the talent solely
I just wanna say I appreciate the intelligence and almost academic quality you put into your commentary. You’re very smart and it shows.
I appreciate that! Thank you!!☺️
ARIANA IS A BETTER VOCALIST THAN MOST OF TODAY'S ARTISTS PERRRRRIOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!
Yep!!!
this is a fantastic video and topic!! subscribed ✅
Thank you! I appreciate it❤️
Hate that you got shit for speaking your mind (and also yes OBJECTIVE TRUTHS) but keep doing you girlie cause I love watching your videos and hearing your opinions and perspective
Right! People are soo crazy on the internet. I didn’t even say anything that outlandish 😭 yes, I’m a keep going and making videos because I know for the few people who don’t like what I have to say there’s so many more that want to hear what I have to say and appreciate it
I absolutely love this video! As a trained vocalist, i have literally been taught to distinguish artists based on their skills. But most people don't understand the nuance of all this. As you said, maybe it is to do with a lack of education. I feel it might have to do with being unaware of certain genres as well. Im from India and some of the most famous female musicians here are know for their extensive vocal range, particularly higher octaves. And since people weren't used to listening to lower octaves, you were often objectively seen as a bad singer if you couldn't hit those high notes. Thankfully, with more artists choosing to try out music from other countries as well as going back to traditional music, we see a lot of variety in voices today.
Also adding that immature stans should have a music lesson or two. Personally, not a fan of T Swift's singing skills. But I'd be straight up lying if I said she wasn't a fantastic lyricist. You can dislike an artist but you gotta give credit where credit is due. I agree music is an art but there are rules, there are skills. There's thing that go far behind what meets the eye. But yes, it is also subjective. There's a lot of trash music I adore simply because that's what I grew up with. Or I have fond memories of. But people need to learn to respect the craft. Anyway, love your vids, as usual ❤ Ciao!
Wow, thank you for putting your two cents in on this being a train vocalist! I feel like y’all don’t get enough respect and everything is just “subjective” but it takes a lot of hard work to be trained and skilled and something artistic and people always write it off as being easy and it’s not
@@CamrynSuzanne just a note: I am trained but I don't do music professionally. So my outlook might be limited in the practical world. But yes, so many phenomenally talented artists out there who deserve every ounce of respect because they've truly given it their all to be trained and skilled. Much love!