@@TripleTroubleArchery Question. Does this same rotational/angular draw apply to compound bows as well? I recently watched a Chris Bee video ua-cam.com/video/V__tSPKZ2pk/v-deo.html and the explanation you gave seems a little different. Would you please clarify? Thanks!
This is the very best video of its kind on youtube , if you are a beginner this is the most important piece of puzzle in the box. do not underestimate the importance of this priceless video. this is the example you should study if you want to properly learn how to draw ANY recurve bow,
If your intent is to use the KSL method then this is all you can do. I use the linear drawing method but never inline. I raise the bow up high and my drawing hand high as well and draw DOWN. This way I use less energy that I can reserve for the anchor/hold into expansion. I started with KSL and then one day I watched Ki Bo Bae shooting and realized she was drawing 45# like it was nothing. I then found video called Linear Shot Sequence seminar by Chris Hill and have never looked back.
Thanks for sharing this discussion (I subscribed to the channel, looks like there is a ton of great info) I agree and shoot in a similar style to Sjef (Not as well as him but the overall appearance is more similar than different.) But GRIV's explanation is consistent with what is taught in the US coaching system (not every coach in the US teaches angular draw but if you want to get your level 4 you have to prove that you understand and can shoot and teach that angular style)
Good stuff George! I don't know if you remember shooting with me at Redding a long time ago. My buddy, Jim, and I mistakenly got placed with you BHFS'ers while we were FSL shooters. One thing that I noticed in building a shot is each part leads to the next with a flow and only the muscles needed to accomplish this should be involved. You got me fake drawing just to see how my line compared to what you were saying and have to say I'm pretty linear in my draw. I do feel that the transition from draw to execution through the clicker and achieving the fly-away release with a continuous flow is the secret for repeatable accuracy. When I hear executing through the clicker with backtension I grimace a little as I prefer to think of it as a breast bone thrust and I begin the thrust as my draw elbow nears the end of the draw, actually over lapping the muscle involvement of each action. The fly-away release comes from a visualization of a rope fixed to the draw elbow with a hook on the end of it. The hook has a trip mechanism like an old hay loading fork(farm talk). Nice to see you teaching, you got me thinking then and now.
Excellent. I'm currently having a tennis elbow on my bowarm and cannot shoot at all...but I really want try this and reflect how I'm actually doing it.
This from tennis or too much tension in the elbow shooting? I had something similar but never worked out what it was.. Took a break from shooting and it's not come back.. It might have been from work
That technique isn't proper. The circular motion will tear your rotator cup up. Lower poundage and check your feet and draw straight back. You're no doubt are drawing too much poundage and bad form do too it.
@@Life-of-Bluegrass_Music the technique is fine...its harder to do correctly without proper education from a coach... Learning online is possible but it's easy to over do it with exaggeration and cause issues with the shoulders If done correctly it can and does work As for his tennis elbow.... He never said what caused it.. Whether it was work/play/archery so can't really draw any conclusions to help
He first demonstrates a bowed wrist, then when actually drawing the wrist is pretty much straight. Then demonstrates a straight draw with an inward flexed wrist which hardly anyone would do.
With an angular draw, it seems easier for me to pull with my back muscles rather than with my biceps, but finding my anchor is easier with a straight draw.
it depends how people interprete biomechanics, it would think the korean and kyudo are all doing their aspect of biomechanics. ksl is the one used the word more often only.
Yes, I agree with Lucas, the angular drawing is kinder on the body, but will not necessarily improve an archer's score. Angular drawing is just one element of the entire process.
When I pick up a pail of water, the wrist and back of my hand are straight just like the Asian dude in the sample video (Who is a great shot) It's different under load. Also, just for giggles, pull your rear shoulder behind your torso bringing your elbow closer in line as you draw. Bio-mechanically much more efficient to get your forearm in line early; this sets your back muscles in and gets your skeleton into better position prior to the load of the bow which takes a lot less energy than having your elbow out of line and forcing the smaller muscles of you shoulder to do that much work by themselves before awkwardly transferring the load to your larger back muscles. Not trying to contradict, just offer a less injurious method especially for anyone using big boy weight. There is no 1 method that is best for all, try everything and see what is more easily repeatable for you
Yeah you don't do a deadlift with a bent wrist but according to people like this you would if you are picking up a bucket of water... He's just invented a scenario to back up the way he shoots.
@@TripleTroubleArchery For one, the wrist doesnt break with the linear shot. If your wrist is breaking during the draw, you have not set your shoulders correctly. If your rear shoulder is not inline with the front shoulder, then during the draw, your wrist will break. This is doing the shot incorrectly. The shoulders are setup inline from the beginning of the draw. The rear shoulder starts out in line with the front shoulder. This puts the wrist inline with the arm as you are pulling along a line straight to target. The wrist and arm are in a line to target that runs along side of the chest from front shoulder to rear shoulder and then to anchor. Having the shoulders inline from the start will keep the wrist straight with the draw arm. For George to state that linear makes the wrist break or that there is a bind is terrible. it is binding on him because his shoulders are not inline to begin with. He has not setup the linear shot properly, and then complains that the shot itself is binding him up. All this shows is that George doesnt know what the linear shot is or how to do it correctly. It has NOTHING to do with how much bend is in your wrist, or the length of the segments of the arm. Of course it is not George's fault. No one has taught him the correct version of the linear shot and what he was taught about NTS and the biomechanics of it are completely not true. It is also terrible for the wrist to bend outward which is taught with NTS form. This outward bend is not bio mechanical, and i debunk it totally in my Linear seminar. Especially the holding the paint can analogy. I will be giving a seminar on the linear shot sequence at the Vegas shoot coming up in February. I am hopeful that Griv will attend it so at least he has been given correct information on the shot sequence. As a last comment, you should never draw angular with the linear shot sequence. NTS that is taught in the USA is a terrible injury prone form. The inner rotation of the shoulder and coiling give subluxated ribs and shoulder injuries. Almost all the top archers who attend our OTC or OTC training camps end up injured. Only Brady Ellison is able to shoot a modified version of the form with any success. It works for no one else, and is evident in the fact that no other country of archers shoots that form. After the Vegas shoot, i will be uploading my seminar on the linear shot to my UA-cam channel. So in the end, this video wasnt Angular vs linear. It was angular vs Sjef shooting angular with a linear posture. At the time, Sjef wasnt shooting linear.
@@ChrisHillOlympicRecurveArchery Thanks for expressing your frustrations. Although I agree with you on some points, I think if you are drawing linear, your wrist is always breaking to some degree, unless you are using mainly bicep to draw back your bow, which is less than ideal. Starting the rear shoulder in line with the front shoulder is just one way of starting the draw, and is not the only proper technique. Archery is a sport in which anatomy and personal mobility issues warrant different ways of achieving the same goal. Making a hard statement like: "you should never draw angular with the linear shot sequence." is a big red flag to me. Actually the first part only ("You should never") itself gives me goosebumps. I am sure there are people who would be better off doing the one thing rather than the other, but Brady Ellison seems to be doing okay with an angular draw. One last thing from my side: I did NOT get injured because of my drawing technique. This was due to something I was doing in anchor and the injury was a result of a blockage in my shoulder. I don't think you should assume reasons for people being injured and then spreading your opinion like that, because that is clearly what it is. An opinion. Have a nice day ✌️
@@TripleTroubleArchery point taken on the reason for your injury. I will remove my opinion on that. But also point to be made, Brady Ellison does not get injured because he does not start out with a linear alignment. His rear shoulder is not in alignment until he anchors. He uses angular alignment for his setup and body. Mixing linear setup and alignment with angular draw will lead to injury. Have a great weekend !
@@ChrisHillOlympicRecurveArchery I agree with you on Brady doing a slightly different version of the NTS. It would be interesting to talk about it in person if we ever get the chance. I won't be in Vegas this year but maybe next year. Have a good one.
Proper draw is straight back. Try drawing on a deer with all their movements. Lol They will be tearing their roto cup up drawing like that. I wouldn't have sights on my recurve either, if I was going too do target. I would use a compound.
I agree about the straight draw, but as far as not fitting a sight for target shooting you will never have the consistency and accuracy a sight helps to achieve (obviously together with good form).
It's a mixture if you look at it Ki bo bae shoots with her wrist turned in and pulls straightish back and then near anchor relaxes her wrist and comes into alignment Chang hye jin shoots similar but with more bend in her wrist until her pause to set her shoulders and then draws to anchor and it's all relaxed and straight Kim woojin shoots with a straight arm/wrist and pulls straightish back and rotates the elbow around very slightly into alignment It doesn't really matter how you get to anchor... It seems like having good alignment with little tension in the arms/wrist/hand alongside super consistent anchor and shot process will give you the results The only person that I've seen really shoot an angular draw well is Brady Ellison using the NTS/best system Steve wiljer if you look at him has a very low elbow and setup and bent wrist but by the time he gets to anchor it's all straight and aligned.. All different but all the same at the end... Clean consistent release... Solid bow arm... And hand running along the face using back tension
It's good to think about this, as no body is the same. This is also something George clearly states in his explanation. I believe my technique is a mix of both, and I am okay with that. -Sjef.
@@asid2burn for olympic archer you are correct. For Traditional Korean it is very different. It uses the thumb draw and has standard target range of 145 meters.
Triple Trouble Archery it’s not but i think he/she meant it in a way to say the content of the video is a bit misleading in the sense that you guys did explain the angular draw but that’s about all you guys did. It would have been better if you showed us the angular draw vs the linear draw and maybe even from different angles.
![Archery Target Panic [How to Fix it in 3 Steps] - Triple Trouble Archery](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/37RiLEVHpcs/mqdefault.jpg)
Excellent demonstration!
Thanks!
@@TripleTroubleArchery Question. Does this same rotational/angular draw apply to compound bows as well? I recently watched a Chris Bee video ua-cam.com/video/V__tSPKZ2pk/v-deo.html and the explanation you gave seems a little different. Would you please clarify? Thanks!
archery videos with correct content is finally coming along
This is the very best video of its kind on youtube , if you are a beginner this is the most important piece of puzzle in the box. do not underestimate the importance of this priceless video. this is the example you should study if you want to properly learn how to draw ANY recurve bow,
Saw this video this morning. This evening the trainer came with this video too. Tryed it, it works for me. More consistent shooting. 26+
If your intent is to use the KSL method then this is all you can do. I use the linear drawing method but never inline. I raise the bow up high and my drawing hand high as well and draw DOWN. This way I use less energy that I can reserve for the anchor/hold into expansion. I started with KSL and then one day I watched Ki Bo Bae shooting and realized she was drawing 45# like it was nothing. I then found video called Linear Shot Sequence seminar by Chris Hill and have never looked back.
Great Video, really good explained
Very good content, very good explanation! Thank you!
Thanks for sharing this discussion (I subscribed to the channel, looks like there is a ton of great info) I agree and shoot in a similar style to Sjef (Not as well as him but the overall appearance is more similar than different.) But GRIV's explanation is consistent with what is taught in the US coaching system (not every coach in the US teaches angular draw but if you want to get your level 4 you have to prove that you understand and can shoot and teach that angular style)
Good stuff George! I don't know if you remember shooting with me at Redding a long time ago. My buddy, Jim, and I mistakenly got placed with you BHFS'ers while we were FSL shooters. One thing that I noticed in building a shot is each part leads to the next with a flow and only the muscles needed to accomplish this should be involved. You got me fake drawing just to see how my line compared to what you were saying and have to say I'm pretty linear in my draw. I do feel that the transition from draw to execution through the clicker and achieving the fly-away release with a continuous flow is the secret for repeatable accuracy. When I hear executing through the clicker with backtension I grimace a little as I prefer to think of it as a breast bone thrust and I begin the thrust as my draw elbow nears the end of the draw, actually over lapping the muscle involvement of each action. The fly-away release comes from a visualization of a rope fixed to the draw elbow with a hook on the end of it. The hook has a trip mechanism like an old hay loading fork(farm talk). Nice to see you teaching, you got me thinking then and now.
Awesome explanation, thanks! New sub
Excellent. I'm currently having a tennis elbow on my bowarm and cannot shoot at all...but I really want try this and reflect how I'm actually doing it.
This from tennis or too much tension in the elbow shooting?
I had something similar but never worked out what it was.. Took a break from shooting and it's not come back.. It might have been from work
That technique isn't proper. The circular motion will tear your rotator cup up. Lower poundage and check your feet and draw straight back. You're no doubt are drawing too much poundage and bad form do too it.
@@Life-of-Bluegrass_Music the technique is fine...its harder to do correctly without proper education from a coach... Learning online is possible but it's easy to over do it with exaggeration and cause issues with the shoulders
If done correctly it can and does work
As for his tennis elbow.... He never said what caused it.. Whether it was work/play/archery so can't really draw any conclusions to help
He first demonstrates a bowed wrist, then when actually drawing the wrist is pretty much straight.
Then demonstrates a straight draw with an inward flexed wrist which hardly anyone would do.
You guys should do a form check video!
Thanks for this video
With an angular draw, it seems easier for me to pull with my back muscles rather than with my biceps, but finding my anchor is easier with a straight draw.
Expectacular. thank you very much
Nicely done.
Podríais subtitular los en castellano? Please
With the ksl shot cycle you do not shoot higher scores but its the biomechanical way that will prevent injurys
it depends how people interprete biomechanics, it would think the korean and kyudo are all doing their aspect of biomechanics. ksl is the one used the word more often only.
Yes, I agree with Lucas, the angular drawing is kinder on the body, but will not necessarily improve an archer's score.
Angular drawing is just one element of the entire process.
When I pick up a pail of water, the wrist and back of my hand are straight just like the Asian dude in the sample video (Who is a great shot) It's different under load. Also, just for giggles, pull your rear shoulder behind your torso bringing your elbow closer in line as you draw. Bio-mechanically much more efficient to get your forearm in line early; this sets your back muscles in and gets your skeleton into better position prior to the load of the bow which takes a lot less energy than having your elbow out of line and forcing the smaller muscles of you shoulder to do that much work by themselves before awkwardly transferring the load to your larger back muscles. Not trying to contradict, just offer a less injurious method especially for anyone using big boy weight. There is no 1 method that is best for all, try everything and see what is more easily repeatable for you
Sorry, no one knows GG1097. Guy Gerig.. I've been around the block a few times :) Good explanation of your method
I agree, if I were lifting a weight my wrist would be straight in line with the rest of my arm, that way the shoulders take the weight.
Yeah you don't do a deadlift with a bent wrist but according to people like this you would if you are picking up a bucket of water... He's just invented a scenario to back up the way he shoots.
Just such a terrible explanation of linear. Not even close to the actual principles or method.
Hi Chris, thanks for taking the time to visit our channel. How would you explain it?
@@TripleTroubleArchery For one, the wrist doesnt break with the linear shot. If your wrist is breaking during the draw, you have not set your shoulders correctly. If your rear shoulder is not inline with the front shoulder, then during the draw, your wrist will break. This is doing the shot incorrectly.
The shoulders are setup inline from the beginning of the draw. The rear shoulder starts out in line with the front shoulder. This puts the wrist inline with the arm as you are pulling along a line straight to target. The wrist and arm are in a line to target that runs along side of the chest from front shoulder to rear shoulder and then to anchor. Having the shoulders inline from the start will keep the wrist straight with the draw arm.
For George to state that linear makes the wrist break or that there is a bind is terrible. it is binding on him because his shoulders are not inline to begin with. He has not setup the linear shot properly, and then complains that the shot itself is binding him up. All this shows is that George doesnt know what the linear shot is or how to do it correctly.
It has NOTHING to do with how much bend is in your wrist, or the length of the segments of the arm. Of course it is not George's fault. No one has taught him the correct version of the linear shot and what he was taught about NTS and the biomechanics of it are completely not true.
It is also terrible for the wrist to bend outward which is taught with NTS form. This outward bend is not bio mechanical, and i debunk it totally in my Linear seminar. Especially the holding the paint can analogy.
I will be giving a seminar on the linear shot sequence at the Vegas shoot coming up in February. I am hopeful that Griv will attend it so at least he has been given correct information on the shot sequence.
As a last comment, you should never draw angular with the linear shot sequence.
NTS that is taught in the USA is a terrible injury prone form. The inner rotation of the shoulder and coiling give subluxated ribs and shoulder injuries. Almost all the top archers who attend our OTC or OTC training camps end up injured. Only Brady Ellison is able to shoot a modified version of the form with any success. It works for no one else, and is evident in the fact that no other country of archers shoots that form.
After the Vegas shoot, i will be uploading my seminar on the linear shot to my UA-cam channel.
So in the end, this video wasnt Angular vs linear. It was angular vs Sjef shooting angular with a linear posture. At the time, Sjef wasnt shooting linear.
@@ChrisHillOlympicRecurveArchery Thanks for expressing your frustrations. Although I agree with you on some points, I think if you are drawing linear, your wrist is always breaking to some degree, unless you are using mainly bicep to draw back your bow, which is less than ideal. Starting the rear shoulder in line with the front shoulder is just one way of starting the draw, and is not the only proper technique. Archery is a sport in which anatomy and personal mobility issues warrant different ways of achieving the same goal. Making a hard statement like: "you should never draw angular with the linear shot sequence." is a big red flag to me. Actually the first part only ("You should never") itself gives me goosebumps. I am sure there are people who would be better off doing the one thing rather than the other, but Brady Ellison seems to be doing okay with an angular draw.
One last thing from my side: I did NOT get injured because of my drawing technique. This was due to something I was doing in anchor and the injury was a result of a blockage in my shoulder. I don't think you should assume reasons for people being injured and then spreading your opinion like that, because that is clearly what it is. An opinion.
Have a nice day ✌️
@@TripleTroubleArchery point taken on the reason for your injury. I will remove my opinion on that. But also point to be made, Brady Ellison does not get injured because he does not start out with a linear alignment. His rear shoulder is not in alignment until he anchors. He uses angular alignment for his setup and body. Mixing linear setup and alignment with angular draw will lead to injury. Have a great weekend !
@@ChrisHillOlympicRecurveArchery I agree with you on Brady doing a slightly different version of the NTS. It would be interesting to talk about it in person if we ever get the chance. I won't be in Vegas this year but maybe next year. Have a good one.
thankyou
Use a bow not an imaginary one.....
Proper draw is straight back. Try drawing on a deer with all their movements. Lol They will be tearing their roto cup up drawing like that. I wouldn't have sights on my recurve either, if I was going too do target. I would use a compound.
I agree about the straight draw, but as far as not fitting a sight for target shooting you will never have the consistency and accuracy a sight helps to achieve (obviously together with good form).
Унылая сутулость - это и есть спорт.
who are the best archers in the world? The Koreans. What do they do?
Mickleblade Who is the best archer in the world? What do he dose?
It's a mixture if you look at it
Ki bo bae shoots with her wrist turned in and pulls straightish back and then near anchor relaxes her wrist and comes into alignment
Chang hye jin shoots similar but with more bend in her wrist until her pause to set her shoulders and then draws to anchor and it's all relaxed and straight
Kim woojin shoots with a straight arm/wrist and pulls straightish back and rotates the elbow around very slightly into alignment
It doesn't really matter how you get to anchor... It seems like having good alignment with little tension in the arms/wrist/hand alongside super consistent anchor and shot process will give you the results
The only person that I've seen really shoot an angular draw well is Brady Ellison using the NTS/best system
Steve wiljer if you look at him has a very low elbow and setup and bent wrist but by the time he gets to anchor it's all straight and aligned..
All different but all the same at the end... Clean consistent release... Solid bow arm... And hand running along the face using back tension
It's good to think about this, as no body is the same. This is also something George clearly states in his explanation. I believe my technique is a mix of both, and I am okay with that. -Sjef.
The Koreans actually study American archers technics. No joke look it up ☝
@@asid2burn for olympic archer you are correct. For Traditional Korean it is very different. It uses the thumb draw and has standard target range of 145 meters.
This is wrong information!
clickbait
Can you explain us why you think this qualifies as clickbait? We’re just curious
Triple Trouble Archery it’s not but i think he/she meant it in a way to say the content of the video is a bit misleading in the sense that you guys did explain the angular draw but that’s about all you guys did. It would have been better if you showed us the angular draw vs the linear draw and maybe even from different angles.