24:08 Best part about (crowdfunded) board games is the fact that a person can read through the rulebook and even prototype some of the gameplay before throwing money in.
I think the problem many people have with AI art is not that they think it's useless or always looks bad. The problem many people have with AI art is that most of those AIs were trained with art from artists whose styles they emulate, and those artists have usually never been asked. So suddenly you got an AI producing the same stuff as a certain artist without their consent. Of course you could say that AI learns by copying the same human artists learn by copying others. But I think the problem is that AIs rarely develop their own style but rather just keep copying other peoples styles. And the problem is also: why should I pair a fair price to an artist if I could use an AI that was trained with that artists work and that can create the same stuff much much cheaper and faster?
The last part I think is the real thing. It's just money and job security related. As you said, artists copy and learn from other artists all the time. It's all money related. Photoshop doesn't suddenly stop working or pay a fee to Disney because it detects you're drawing fan art of Elsa from Frozen. But it's not new and they can't really spin the story around how the tech works like these companies and people can for AI, so unlike ever other modern tool for art creation this one is being pushed down for money's sake. I imagine portrait painters had a similar issue with the invention of the camera and photo developers again similar to digital film. Any time a technology threatens to take away (some) jobs there's push back from the people who's jobs feel threatened. It reminds me a bit of the discussion around programmers, as AI can now do quite a bit of auto programming. The best take I read was this: "If you feel AI can replace you as a programmer then honestly you aren't that great at programming" - that is, you are only doing simple and straightforward things. I feel this is somewhat similar to art as well. If you do straight forward stuff then yeah, that might be an issue. But for anything really creative and more unique it's something AI still struggles with. I suspect, unless they are successful in stopping the advancement of this technology, that many artists will need to move away from concept art (which I feel AI can do a decent job in that stage) and more into refinement and editing in the same way many photographers these days are just as well versed in Photoshop as they are with their camera.
@@TheKingofAverage A long time ago someone smarter than me said "The people who get replaced by technology are the ones who fight it and refuse to change" Artists need to realise there's no going back and they need to adapt to its consequences.
Agreed. The only difference I see this time is that now-a-days larger corporations can push policy to prevent tech from expanding or at the very least slow it down. It's why many AI now will detect if you are making a Disney movie poster with your dog in it and will refuse to work. Again Photoshop won't, camera's wont, browsers won't but AI will. It's already being pushed on and trying to be corralled by large companies that see the potential for their IP being used in a program without permission. No real different than the auto makers trying to stop Tesla from selling cars and such. Those in power want status quo. Anything that threatens that (that they haven't monetized) will be pushed against.
You may want to check out latest update in Colonial 1700-1800 Gamefound campaign where creators show how someone was attacking their campaign. Very interesting case.
All Ip related games are going to be sent first because their under a contract. So DD, SS, Monsterpocalypse, and Rise of the Necromancers. Both Hel and Anastyr are probably going to be last.
In response to the MC RPG comment about "cross our fingers". For the folks who are familiar with MC and his videos and whatnot, that's simply his humor and the people who are backing KNOW that is his schtick.
"Cross our fingers" is his humor, but he's dead serious about not promising it will exist. The game doesn't exist yet, so whether the Vasloria box set will have enough support in the community when they finally get to it, and whether the set ends up working conceptually is up in the air. Likewise, the VTT involves software development, which is incredibly messy. So they don't want to promise something that they aren't sure will end up working out financially or practically, and they've been burned in the past by promising extra and then finding out what they promised was worse than anticipated (such as their "Play a round of Campaign for North Africa" stretch goal, which Matt has said has been an absolute thorn in his side trying to learn). Mix that with the challenges covid threw their way with production, and they've gotten a lot more nuanced and specific with what they promise.
As a late pledge backer of Monsterpocalypse, my big fear is that even IF they eventually get around to fulfilling that project, I have not received a single email since my pledge was confirmed. I'd consider paying extra (within reason) if it means getting my game. However I unfortunately think I won't get any notification if further payment is needed.
I feel like I spend a lot of time saying this but the MCDM project is to produce a TTRPG. You are paying for the development of a game. The VTT is an extra. They will spend some money to develop it but they cannot guarantee it will work out and that is why it is a stretch goal not part of the core product. Software development can be expensive and he cannot predict the complications in a VTT as the company has not done software before. This project confuses people because it is actually what crowdfunding was intended to be, a means to raise money and spark investment from people who would be interested in the end product. CROWDFUNDING SHOULD NOT BE A PREORDER SYSTEM! That is unfortunately how most companies use it today, however. MCDM has the bare bones framework of an RPG that they are developing.
I have Darkest Dungeon and everything wave 1 since February. I haven't taken it to the table yet but people say it's a pretty good game. I can vouch for the quality. It's pretty great! The minis are amazing and much better in reality compared to videos/images. I need to table it.
Awaken realms take note of 21:20, this is how you avoid LANG people getting upset that they end up waiting 3 years for a game, I am a ENG backer, get the ENG version ready to print and then launch campaign. to be able to start on the LANG version. I have been saying this for a long time, so many creators go in with ideas and some art work and nothing else, then wonder what people are getting annoyed at project length. Ice makes just ran the perfect campaign for Terrorscape (shipping went sideways).
I can confirm that they sometimes do watch my videos. They probably don't agree with me on all things which is understandable, but they certainly pay attention to the industry and want to know what various people think, even if they end up disagreeing with them.
Off topic but just wanna say Merry Christmas/ Happy Holidays and happy New Year King. Appreciate all the videos you make for us. Looking forward to more content in the new year (hopefully filled with good news of companies delivering great games to their backers!)
I think you want to see more ownership and confidence in the commitment to develop some software at a certain cost. however, despite the attempts of thousands of software developers to estimate the cost of developing some software, there is a nice informal proof that this is impossible. estimating cost involves deciding how complicated an algorithm is, and there is already a mathematical proof that it is impossible to estimate how complicated and algorithm is. these people are saying that if they run out of the money that they’ve collected, they may not manage to produce their software. that is very honest. -Toby
Mythic Games is so much of a better company than Lazy Squire Games, if you get a chance in the New Year can you do one of your excellent videos looking into them as they are stringing people along for years with Wild Ascent and Stormsunder neither of which will likely ever deliver and refunds have been stopped.
It's because they only create board games on the side now. They've moved on and their business is now ran for the purpose of rules creation , campaign creation and art creation for other companies. If they have some spare time on the side of that they'll spend it on Stormsunder and Wild Assent. :(
In the terms of Stormsunder game is just huge Scope Creep problem. Based on their updates Everything is done except the Story and Balance, every time they get to a new expansion everything they already did becomes unbalanced and has to be redone. In terms of Narrative, Its like writing a 400 page Novel but the Novel has tons of other 400 page Novels because of the branching Narrative. Its really a choice do they give you it way delayed but have everything really great, or do they deliver it sooner and then require you to get a 80$ update pack for all the mistakes, like so many other games have done. People tend to complain about both. The longer you take, the more people think your not delivering because your so late. If you deliver too early people are pissed they have to spend more to get a fix to something that in their mind should already be fixed. People tend to have a problem cause their providing mini's and art for other game companies, when their doing the same as Middara and Into the Unknown, just with other companies. Middara always comes out with more resin kits, and other extra's that come out before their wave 2 is ever delivered, Into the Unknown constantly comes out with these small packs with a couple of titans or primordial that you can add to your pledge. No one complains about them adding stuff when their not fully delivered because its all in house, however that extra stuff still takes time away from the main stuff. The main problem is they never should have offered as much as they did from the start, should have just started with the base game.
I am just glad that I resisted the option to go all in with Stormsunder. Not even that interested in it anymore!? Maybe that will change when it arrives....if I live that long?!
Still think the Monolith Orcquest Warpath situation would warrant a video. As expected, they are just sitting it out. Will try to sell my copy as I don't expect them to fix their "mistake" at this point but still think it would deserve a spotlight.
My only worry with MCDM was/is how early they seemingly started it. You usely wanna show something off, a direction. As a hobby "expert" in ttrpgs its very barebones and they confirmed that MCDM is just a stand in and they dont even have a name for it yet. and 2 years for a pdf to show. I hope they make the best out of it and reward the trust people apparently show them. It would be a cool idea for the people help create it like naming it, that would be dope.
I disagree with you about the charts with exes or checks. I think they make it easy to figure out exactly what you are getting. They make it easier without stress to decide that you’ve made the right choice. -Toby
I have to agree, I'm definitky not happy about how it went down but my game group and I have had a blast playing and I have gotten my monies worth, even at the inflated cost. Hopefully the rest of my mythic stuff turns out the same........
I wasn't thrilled about it but I'm 40 and have seen a lot during my life, I think they likely just faced some very serious complications and are trying to make the best of it. There initial shipping quote was VERY low as well, about 1/3 of what other campaigns were asking at the time. The game is just awesome. I love playing and can't wait to try the other expansions. One of my favorite games. @@matthewjones1913
@@TheKingofAverage Naughty by Nature. O.P.P. :) Because my brain is inappropriate. So, talking about a family friendly game made my mind remember that song. 😂 Wrong on so many levels.
Lol id pay more if they sent my copy with my copy ov Hel the Last Saga. I am glad I didn't back Anastyr. I wanted to because I like Paolo... id love to hear his thoughts
When they revealed that the date was pushed back my first instinct was "they're going to charge us shipping a fourth time aren't they...?" From a purely cynical perspective it makes sense that they would, Darkest Dungeon is their biggest campaign so it will be easiest one to use to raise funds for their other crowdfunded games and keep them in business, once Darkest Dungeon is gone they'll have a lot more trouble.
@@CheddahSlammer They did it three times if you include the original shipping, but the sunk cost fallacy and a year between shipping payments will lesson the sting.
To be clear on Faith's Legacy: None of the pledge levels include an actual game. This guy apparently thought that he was gonna get $200k+ so he could work on a game that he doesn't even have basic rules for.
That's what I thought as first, so I started highlighting parts in the page where they mention getting the game - they do it twice actually. But then sure enough, in the $150 pledge you get a "Special Edition Box Set of "Faith's Legacy"" which I read as the actual game. His cost breakdown linked also shows the cost to manufacture 800 games.
I think too much is made of A.I. art being used. I am an artist (teaching is how I make my living but I do sell my artwork) and I just find it another avenue. If a large company goes with it when they could be supporting artists, I think that's a shame, but there are a lot of indie developers that could spruce up their game's looks with some A.I.
Ya there's no question. That's AI art. When you zoom in it doesn't know how to draw cards correctly. The biggest red flag for AI is hands. As of right now they can't seem to get them right. A lot of times they are backwards or weirdly contorted
24:08 Best part about (crowdfunded) board games is the fact that a person can read through the rulebook and even prototype some of the gameplay before throwing money in.
I think the problem many people have with AI art is not that they think it's useless or always looks bad. The problem many people have with AI art is that most of those AIs were trained with art from artists whose styles they emulate, and those artists have usually never been asked. So suddenly you got an AI producing the same stuff as a certain artist without their consent. Of course you could say that AI learns by copying the same human artists learn by copying others. But I think the problem is that AIs rarely develop their own style but rather just keep copying other peoples styles. And the problem is also: why should I pair a fair price to an artist if I could use an AI that was trained with that artists work and that can create the same stuff much much cheaper and faster?
The last part I think is the real thing. It's just money and job security related. As you said, artists copy and learn from other artists all the time. It's all money related.
Photoshop doesn't suddenly stop working or pay a fee to Disney because it detects you're drawing fan art of Elsa from Frozen. But it's not new and they can't really spin the story around how the tech works like these companies and people can for AI, so unlike ever other modern tool for art creation this one is being pushed down for money's sake.
I imagine portrait painters had a similar issue with the invention of the camera and photo developers again similar to digital film. Any time a technology threatens to take away (some) jobs there's push back from the people who's jobs feel threatened.
It reminds me a bit of the discussion around programmers, as AI can now do quite a bit of auto programming. The best take I read was this: "If you feel AI can replace you as a programmer then honestly you aren't that great at programming" - that is, you are only doing simple and straightforward things. I feel this is somewhat similar to art as well. If you do straight forward stuff then yeah, that might be an issue. But for anything really creative and more unique it's something AI still struggles with.
I suspect, unless they are successful in stopping the advancement of this technology, that many artists will need to move away from concept art (which I feel AI can do a decent job in that stage) and more into refinement and editing in the same way many photographers these days are just as well versed in Photoshop as they are with their camera.
@@TheKingofAverage A long time ago someone smarter than me said "The people who get replaced by technology are the ones who fight it and refuse to change"
Artists need to realise there's no going back and they need to adapt to its consequences.
Agreed. The only difference I see this time is that now-a-days larger corporations can push policy to prevent tech from expanding or at the very least slow it down. It's why many AI now will detect if you are making a Disney movie poster with your dog in it and will refuse to work. Again Photoshop won't, camera's wont, browsers won't but AI will. It's already being pushed on and trying to be corralled by large companies that see the potential for their IP being used in a program without permission.
No real different than the auto makers trying to stop Tesla from selling cars and such. Those in power want status quo. Anything that threatens that (that they haven't monetized) will be pushed against.
You may want to check out latest update in Colonial 1700-1800 Gamefound campaign where creators show how someone was attacking their campaign. Very interesting case.
Speaking of Mythic Games - When are we going to see Hel : the Last Saga - now 2.5 years late and the kickstarter last updated in March...?
I think you're behind on the news...
I suspect it's after any/all IP related content they still need to deliver.
All Ip related games are going to be sent first because their under a contract. So DD, SS, Monsterpocalypse, and Rise of the Necromancers. Both Hel and Anastyr are probably going to be last.
I will be 62 in January. I expect to be retired by the time Hel is delivered, if at all.
I suppose it just means you'll be able to enjoy it completely then right? :D
See you in the new year!
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas to you as well, thank you! :)
In response to the MC RPG comment about "cross our fingers". For the folks who are familiar with MC and his videos and whatnot, that's simply his humor and the people who are backing KNOW that is his schtick.
Oh okay that's good! Thank you for letting me know that.
"Cross our fingers" is his humor, but he's dead serious about not promising it will exist. The game doesn't exist yet, so whether the Vasloria box set will have enough support in the community when they finally get to it, and whether the set ends up working conceptually is up in the air. Likewise, the VTT involves software development, which is incredibly messy. So they don't want to promise something that they aren't sure will end up working out financially or practically, and they've been burned in the past by promising extra and then finding out what they promised was worse than anticipated (such as their "Play a round of Campaign for North Africa" stretch goal, which Matt has said has been an absolute thorn in his side trying to learn). Mix that with the challenges covid threw their way with production, and they've gotten a lot more nuanced and specific with what they promise.
As a late pledge backer of Monsterpocalypse, my big fear is that even IF they eventually get around to fulfilling that project, I have not received a single email since my pledge was confirmed. I'd consider paying extra (within reason) if it means getting my game. However I unfortunately think I won't get any notification if further payment is needed.
Hope you and your family have a great Christmas.
Thank you very much Will, you as well! Merry Christmas!
your gameroom is looking really nice :)
Thank you! Helps when I clean up a bit. Still need to put LED's int he case but I'm lazy :D
I feel like I spend a lot of time saying this but the MCDM project is to produce a TTRPG. You are paying for the development of a game. The VTT is an extra. They will spend some money to develop it but they cannot guarantee it will work out and that is why it is a stretch goal not part of the core product. Software development can be expensive and he cannot predict the complications in a VTT as the company has not done software before. This project confuses people because it is actually what crowdfunding was intended to be, a means to raise money and spark investment from people who would be interested in the end product. CROWDFUNDING SHOULD NOT BE A PREORDER SYSTEM! That is unfortunately how most companies use it today, however. MCDM has the bare bones framework of an RPG that they are developing.
I have Darkest Dungeon and everything wave 1 since February. I haven't taken it to the table yet but people say it's a pretty good game. I can vouch for the quality. It's pretty great! The minis are amazing and much better in reality compared to videos/images. I need to table it.
Average at best, especially for the garbage price tag and customer treatment
But is Zombicide all good?
Always sir.
Awaken realms take note of 21:20, this is how you avoid LANG people getting upset that they end up waiting 3 years for a game, I am a ENG backer, get the ENG version ready to print and then launch campaign. to be able to start on the LANG version.
I have been saying this for a long time, so many creators go in with ideas and some art work and nothing else, then wonder what people are getting annoyed at project length.
Ice makes just ran the perfect campaign for Terrorscape (shipping went sideways).
You think AR watch this video? I think they stopped sending review copies.
@@zenster1097 They do look on UA-cam at Board games creators channels.
I can confirm that they sometimes do watch my videos. They probably don't agree with me on all things which is understandable, but they certainly pay attention to the industry and want to know what various people think, even if they end up disagreeing with them.
@@TheKingofAverage Thought they stopped sending you review copies after Nemesis.
Off topic but just wanna say Merry Christmas/ Happy Holidays and happy New Year King. Appreciate all the videos you make for us. Looking forward to more content in the new year (hopefully filled with good news of companies delivering great games to their backers!)
Merry Christmas to you as well!
Indeed, I so hope it's a better year! :)
To be fair, I'm not sure if Alex smiles in any thumbnails for his videos 😂
Right? The slacker :D
I think you want to see more ownership and confidence in the commitment to develop some software at a certain cost. however, despite the attempts of thousands of software developers to estimate the cost of developing some software, there is a nice informal proof that this is impossible. estimating cost involves deciding how complicated an algorithm is, and there is already a mathematical proof that it is impossible to estimate how complicated and algorithm is. these people are saying that if they run out of the money that they’ve collected, they may not manage to produce their software. that is very honest. -Toby
My first email to Byron was on the 24th of March, I sent 3 emails including that one and no answer. :(
Sorry man :(
You have me wanting an Oathsworn t shirt now!!!
Give me the Broodmother emblazoned on a shirt already! I'll buy it! :D
Mythic Games is so much of a better company than Lazy Squire Games, if you get a chance in the New Year can you do one of your excellent videos looking into them as they are stringing people along for years with Wild Ascent and Stormsunder neither of which will likely ever deliver and refunds have been stopped.
I believe they will deliver, but they always take their sweet time doing so.
It's because they only create board games on the side now. They've moved on and their business is now ran for the purpose of rules creation , campaign creation and art creation for other companies. If they have some spare time on the side of that they'll spend it on Stormsunder and Wild Assent. :(
@@TheKingofAverage That's great to know thank you, more information than I have got from 2 years of sporadic updates from them.
In the terms of Stormsunder game is just huge Scope Creep problem. Based on their updates Everything is done except the Story and Balance, every time they get to a new expansion everything they already did becomes unbalanced and has to be redone. In terms of Narrative, Its like writing a 400 page Novel but the Novel has tons of other 400 page Novels because of the branching Narrative.
Its really a choice do they give you it way delayed but have everything really great, or do they deliver it sooner and then require you to get a 80$ update pack for all the mistakes, like so many other games have done. People tend to complain about both. The longer you take, the more people think your not delivering because your so late. If you deliver too early people are pissed they have to spend more to get a fix to something that in their mind should already be fixed.
People tend to have a problem cause their providing mini's and art for other game companies, when their doing the same as Middara and Into the Unknown, just with other companies. Middara always comes out with more resin kits, and other extra's that come out before their wave 2 is ever delivered, Into the Unknown constantly comes out with these small packs with a couple of titans or primordial that you can add to your pledge. No one complains about them adding stuff when their not fully delivered because its all in house, however that extra stuff still takes time away from the main stuff.
The main problem is they never should have offered as much as they did from the start, should have just started with the base game.
I am just glad that I resisted the option to go all in with Stormsunder. Not even that interested in it anymore!? Maybe that will change when it arrives....if I live that long?!
Still think the Monolith Orcquest Warpath situation would warrant a video. As expected, they are just sitting it out. Will try to sell my copy as I don't expect them to fix their "mistake" at this point but still think it would deserve a spotlight.
What about Orcquest Warpath situation? What mistake was there? I've received my copy but didn't got the chance to play it yet
The bad thing is that Kickstarter doesn't care when backers get ripped off, so I guess we will see a lot more of these projects >;(
My only worry with MCDM was/is how early they seemingly started it. You usely wanna show something off, a direction. As a hobby "expert" in ttrpgs its very barebones and they confirmed that MCDM is just a stand in and they dont even have a name for it yet. and 2 years for a pdf to show. I hope they make the best out of it and reward the trust people apparently show them. It would be a cool idea for the people help create it like naming it, that would be dope.
I disagree with you about the charts with exes or checks. I think they make it easy to figure out exactly what you are getting. They make it easier without stress to decide that you’ve made the right choice. -Toby
I can see that. I think a full chart showing them all side by side are more useful though personally.
I'm pumped for Wave 2 Darkest Dungeon.
I do sincerely hope I get it and feel it was worth it.
I have to agree, I'm definitky not happy about how it went down but my game group and I have had a blast playing and I have gotten my monies worth, even at the inflated cost. Hopefully the rest of my mythic stuff turns out the same........
I wasn't thrilled about it but I'm 40 and have seen a lot during my life, I think they likely just faced some very serious complications and are trying to make the best of it. There initial shipping quote was VERY low as well, about 1/3 of what other campaigns were asking at the time.
The game is just awesome. I love playing and can't wait to try the other expansions. One of my favorite games. @@matthewjones1913
🎶 You down with PPP? 🎶
Nah, not really. 😂
hahah like ICP? :D
@@TheKingofAverage Naughty by Nature. O.P.P. :) Because my brain is inappropriate. So, talking about a family friendly game made my mind remember that song. 😂 Wrong on so many levels.
gahaha :D
Lol id pay more if they sent my copy with my copy ov Hel the Last Saga. I am glad I didn't back Anastyr. I wanted to because I like Paolo... id love to hear his thoughts
The AI image looks cool. I wish it was real. But you can see from the campaign page they have very little pics and it’s fake.
…And still no update for HEL 🤦🏼♂️
When they revealed that the date was pushed back my first instinct was "they're going to charge us shipping a fourth time aren't they...?"
From a purely cynical perspective it makes sense that they would, Darkest Dungeon is their biggest campaign so it will be easiest one to use to raise funds for their other crowdfunded games and keep them in business, once Darkest Dungeon is gone they'll have a lot more trouble.
:(
At this point it won't make sense because they already did it twice, any more and they will loose any trust they will have left.
@@CheddahSlammer They did it three times if you include the original shipping, but the sunk cost fallacy and a year between shipping payments will lesson the sting.
To be clear on Faith's Legacy: None of the pledge levels include an actual game. This guy apparently thought that he was gonna get $200k+ so he could work on a game that he doesn't even have basic rules for.
That's what I thought as first, so I started highlighting parts in the page where they mention getting the game - they do it twice actually. But then sure enough, in the $150 pledge you get a "Special Edition Box Set of "Faith's Legacy"" which I read as the actual game.
His cost breakdown linked also shows the cost to manufacture 800 games.
but it's SUPER non obvious for sure.
I think too much is made of A.I. art being used. I am an artist (teaching is how I make my living but I do sell my artwork) and I just find it another avenue. If a large company goes with it when they could be supporting artists, I think that's a shame, but there are a lot of indie developers that could spruce up their game's looks with some A.I.
very true!
Ya there's no question. That's AI art. When you zoom in it doesn't know how to draw cards correctly. The biggest red flag for AI is hands. As of right now they can't seem to get them right. A lot of times they are backwards or weirdly contorted
Oh look, fake shit and scammers on Kickstarter... quelle suprise
lol :D