5 reasons why you should stop playing WotC’s D&D

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  • Опубліковано 23 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 2 тис.

  • @DaveThaumavore
    @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +68

    Support the channel by joining my Patreon! www.patreon.com/thaumavore
    Sign up for my newsletter! bit.ly/ThaumavoreNewsletter

    • @a.m.pietroschek1972
      @a.m.pietroschek1972 Рік тому +2

      The sixth edition is overdue, and even a fallback on the original edition & rewriting it for each player group IS something any DM should be capable of. WotC violated the truth that TSR made their entire content public domain on day of bankruptcy.

    • @saviloic
      @saviloic 2 місяці тому +2

      Would be great to also get your take on Pathfinder 2E in general and as an alternative to 5E. Tks for all the great content!

    • @arnijulian6241
      @arnijulian6241 11 днів тому

      I'm getting an few more of the older book when on sell as a side gig to return to but other wise I jumped ship back in 2022 for the most part.
      3.5 is more fun but try getting the content today & most new players cant adapt.
      You play the RPG to the table you can get!

  • @KyrieFortune
    @KyrieFortune Рік тому +118

    Reason 7: Hasbro of the Coast sent fucking pinkertons to a guy's house for the crime of having bought cards and being accidentally sent prototype for an upcoming release.

  • @Oriansenshi
    @Oriansenshi 2 роки тому +1181

    I will never forget when I was an Uber driver and I was driving this girl to her DND session and I was talking to her about the games I play. I said that i play other ttrpgs besides dnd 5e, and she was like, "So like, other worlds? like homebrew?" and we got to her destination before I could explain that there were more games than DND 5e. I think about that girl from time to time. I hope she learned about how big the world of TTRPG's really is.

    • @boriscat1999
      @boriscat1999 2 роки тому +65

      I'm thrilled that a new generation is having fun with table top RPGs. After she finishes a few campaigns I'm sure she'll be like the rest of us at that age and look for something new and different to add more to the roleplaying experience.

    • @didelphidae5228
      @didelphidae5228 2 роки тому +61

      It is painful to think most people unironically believe roleplaying game is synonymous with D+D 🙄

    • @PanicontheDieRoll
      @PanicontheDieRoll 2 роки тому +28

      Every industry(comics, VG, etc) across the board goes through this. Find your niche, carve out your place, and enjoy your game

    • @TheMorrigan31
      @TheMorrigan31 2 роки тому +40

      I think I just took psychic damage from this... It makes my skin crawl to think how many people don't know there are systems besides 5e...

    • @PanicontheDieRoll
      @PanicontheDieRoll 2 роки тому +20

      @@TheMorrigan31 If you run in circles only runnin DnD 5th, you never know. It's like here in the South, people will swear by Bologna steak til they taste the real thing

  • @cheezeofages
    @cheezeofages Рік тому +373

    Reason #6: The Leaks of OGL 1.1 which are draconian, anti-competition tactics that would kill third party publishing and legitimately in the leaked form basically kills Kickstarter projects.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  Рік тому +65

      Indeed. I’ll wait for the official release of the “o”gl before making any tirades against it, but the leak is legit I think, and it’s absolutely atrocious.

    • @leodouskyron5671
      @leodouskyron5671 Рік тому +9

      The only valid reason not to play that I 100% agree with.

    • @Graciechan-39
      @Graciechan-39 Рік тому +12

      Reason #7: It’s just flat-out difficult.

    • @williamdavis7274
      @williamdavis7274 Рік тому +7

      Yeah this seems down right prophetic in post OGL gate world. Thats why we watch Dave right? Clearly got a finger on the pulse of our hobby...

    • @alberthord9527
      @alberthord9527 Рік тому +12

      Reason #7 (2.0): WotC Sends Pinkerton thugs to bully independent content creators.

  • @rogerdeese2491
    @rogerdeese2491 Рік тому +61

    2nd addition AD&D was the greatest version for me. PathFinder the improvement of 3.5 was great as well. Champions, CyberPunk 2020, and Star Wars D6 are all great games too.

    • @DustinBarlow8P
      @DustinBarlow8P 14 днів тому +2

      Pathfinder has gone full progressive. Might as well have a rule stating "All female characters get +10 to every stat at creation, while men start with the "shame of being a man" debuff.

    • @BradlyGizmo
      @BradlyGizmo 12 днів тому +3

      2e is ultimate awesomeness!!

    • @tsoliot5913
      @tsoliot5913 6 днів тому +4

      2E is it

  • @dragonchr15
    @dragonchr15 2 роки тому +159

    I loved Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd edition, the players handbook with the man on a horse on the cover....the art and lore from a variety of worlds like Krynn, Oerth, Faerun, as well as the novels that came out under that umbrella....still bring back fond memories of my childhood in the 90s......
    I used to love going to the D&D section of a bookstore....now, it resembles a mini-toy store with all kinds of cheap made in china plastic crap and lots of books with bland artwork.....

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +21

      Man on the horse cover 2e was my very first RPG book. Fond memories.
      And yes, the amount of garbage toys and accessories that Hasbro fills the shelves with is disappointing. I guess they're trying to widen their net and catch people who want to be a part of the RPG craze but who will never actually play.

    • @phoenixshade3
      @phoenixshade3 Рік тому +7

      I miss the TSR days. I still have nearly the full collection of the original hardcovers and many of the 2e books as well. Most of my campaigns back in those days were my own crafted worlds and I DMed a kind of AD&D/2e homebrew.

    • @_Alcyonae
      @_Alcyonae Рік тому +7

      I can bet that a lot of people will blow the dust of the cover of old AD&D books now.
      I remember when 3.5 came, I never made the upgrade. Since then, I DM groups from 3.5, 4 and 5th. edition, converted them to the old ways of thac0.
      I started with the black book of the barbarian destroying the door.

    • @jessielakes8118
      @jessielakes8118 Рік тому +3

      3.5 makes much more sense from a realism perspective but I played second edition more than I played anything so I see the allure. I prefer first edition over 2nd. But I'm a sucker for Gygax math riddles.

    • @UnbeltedSundew
      @UnbeltedSundew Рік тому +3

      Same here. Not really related to this video, but my biggest disappointment with 3rd edition was the drop in art quality I was so excited to see this brand new thing and they just had very middling cartoonish work and those stupid covers.

  • @rattila5858
    @rattila5858 2 роки тому +619

    A necessary video in a hobby where the culture, media and people are extremely focused on a single game. We don't need for DnD to become more popular, but for RPG in general, in all their variety and possibilities.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +43

      Agreed.

    • @foff3804
      @foff3804 2 роки тому +15

      I don't know getting more popular in recent years has brought way too much unwanted attention to the hobby.

    • @feruspriest
      @feruspriest 2 роки тому

      @@foff3804 what kind of attention?

    • @Vitoreba
      @Vitoreba 2 роки тому +24

      @@foff3804 unwanted for who? 🤔

    • @jawamaster
      @jawamaster 2 роки тому +1

      @@foff3804 More attention is good though? Sounds like you are gatekeeping

  • @nikholman1287
    @nikholman1287 2 роки тому +271

    I agree 100%. I went from playing 5E (It's okay, just D&D on easy mode), to DMing 5E this summer. I now hate 5E. Being on the other side of the DM screen showed me all of the flaws in the game; boring combat, power creep, and too many rules which leads to rule lawyering on a scale I have never experienced in 30+ years of gaming. And I won't even get into the player base. I'm moving to OSR and praying there is a home for me there.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +41

      I bet you’ll love OSR.

    • @phoenixdblack
      @phoenixdblack 2 роки тому +35

      For me it's the same problem, but the opposite solution. DMing it is a pain, because the rules that are there are completely dysfunctional, which is why we are moving to Pathfinder 2E, because the solid ruleset allowes the DM to actually make informed calls. Also the amount of balanced player choices is just refreshing after the disappointing classes in 5E

    • @iratevagabond204
      @iratevagabond204 2 роки тому +6

      Hackmaster 5e is basically Advanced Dungeon and Dragons. They come in beautiful hardcovers too. If you look into the history of Kenzer & Company and the Knights of the Dinner Table, it's pretty interesting; they basically opened the door for the OSR.

    • @B00kman
      @B00kman 2 роки тому +12

      Tried Forbidden Lands and now it’s hard to go back.

    • @scottplumer3668
      @scottplumer3668 2 роки тому +11

      I don't mind DMing low-level campaigns. When you get higher level, though, it's awful.

  • @JamesEck9095
    @JamesEck9095 2 роки тому +82

    The point of "Trusting the players (and the DM)" by a given rule set and it's approach to gaming is so key!

    • @acridharbor6253
      @acridharbor6253 2 роки тому +10

      My way of looking at the game,the DM is as much a player as the rest of the group.
      If you don't have a DM you don't have a world to play in, but if you don't have players for that world, it doesn't matter if you're a DM because nobody can see or live in that world.
      TTRPGS are meant to be played as a group, so having a nice relationship with the entire table is always important.

    • @mbaelstromos0002
      @mbaelstromos0002 2 роки тому +1

      Don't know about anyone else, but when I saw WOTC movement to remove alignment, it made me realize they don't trust us to draw our own conclusions. They seem to focus on raking in new players. But what if they became veterans? What after that

    • @darlenesmith5690
      @darlenesmith5690 2 роки тому +1

      @@mbaelstromos0002 I saw the same thing with Concentration rules. Number of magic items rules via attunement, etc.
      They purposely put in a lot of rules to limit the game.
      On the other hand, they then added in advantage and disadvantage. These are equivalent bonuses of +5 and -5 respectively. The game never gave such high bonuses / penalties, but 5E hands them out like candy. Plus they added in things like avoiding the cover penalty. I have not played in a game with a ranged Ranger PC that did not have Sharpshooter. Misty Step is a teleport spell at level 2. WT? One used to have to wait until level 4 with Dimension Door.
      The game just feels so sanitized, but at the same time so easy to abuse. It's as if they took out all of the problem children of earlier versions, but added in a whole new bunch of them.

    • @polandsilver3419
      @polandsilver3419 7 місяців тому +1

      This often applies to videogames as well. I don't play ttrpgs or board games (still like them a lot), but I play a lot of indie video games and I'm really intested in video game design.
      I can tell that many original games were made with this model. Creator who trusts players will allow them to use different strategies, not only ones that creator likes :)
      Developers of Darks Souls series said that it's perfectly fine to exploit their game and cheese enemies
      Developers of Eve Online went so far they let players build actual economical strustures in their mmorpg (one of few mmorpgs that are trurly giving freedom)
      Minecraft originally (pre 1.8) was developed as boring game where you have to do what you want to make it interesting
      Zelda BotW and ToK are made with this midset (First time I say sth good about Nintendo)
      Celeste is linear platformer where you can change many settings to make it easier (with note that game isn't meant to be played this way for fully physically healthy players), but still we have the opportunity
      Remember than not everyone in video games is searching for freedom (some peaple are for competiton, some for cooperation), sometimes it's just not necessary. I just want to point that it can lead to many good results here as well :)

    • @KopperNeoman
      @KopperNeoman 14 днів тому

      @@acridharbor6253 The DM is King, the players are his subjects. Rule 0 says that whatever the DM says goes, but the unofficial rule -1 says that if the players don't like the DM, they can walk. The players can't tell the DM what to do or bully him into compliance, they can offer suggestions, those suggestions can be refused, and then they can leave. Leave your X card BS at the door or get gatekept.
      Bad players will not be able to find DMs, bad DMs will not be able to find players.

  • @PsionNovastar
    @PsionNovastar 2 роки тому +24

    I was a video gamer that picked up D&D just after 3.5 dropped. I had gotten into tabletop when CRPGs were in a bit of a rut (mind you, this was before the Mass Effect series and before indie developers really took off on Steam) and have been in both worlds ever since. I had been watching how Wizards is handling 5E and keeping getting flashbacks to the business practices of Electronic Arts and Ubisoft. For those not familiar with the antics of the video game space... you do not want that. Trust me, you DO NOT want that.

  • @Lobomaru02
    @Lobomaru02 Рік тому +37

    5E will always have a special place in my heart because it was the version that was my gateway into the world of TRPGs. It is _very_ beginner friendly, and that is a wonderful strength. But years later and with a lot of experience under my belt, I have actually abandoned it completely to play Pathfinder instead. Brought the guy who introduced me to 5E with me too.

  • @alimargaming8722
    @alimargaming8722 2 роки тому +126

    I started in the tabletop hobby through a local D&D event because it was the only one I'd heard of and knew about. After a couple of years, we decided to check out Call of Cthulhu and instantly fell in love.
    After about 3 years of D&D, we finally had enough and branched out to other games and I've since sold all of my 5e books and used the money to add more awesome games to my collection.
    You make a LOT of valid points, particularly that it is hard to run and balance at higher levels because players become demigods once you hit level 13 or so, and it just gets worse from there. Great video as always! We'll see you in the new year, Dave

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +14

      I’m glad you got out of the 5e ecosystem and found something awesome.

    • @alimargaming8722
      @alimargaming8722 2 роки тому +5

      @Dave Thaumavore RPG Reviews I actually started getting out of 5e because of Dicebreaker who had a video of 10 RPGs that aren't D&D, in which you had reviews of most of the games including Symbaroum, Blades In the Dark, and Ryuutama.
      I'd actually love to see you cover more Modiphius games in the future, but specifically Fallout 2d20 as I'm a big fan of the game

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +8

      @@alimargaming8722 I’ll take a look at Fallout.

    • @stefanjakubowski8222
      @stefanjakubowski8222 2 роки тому +5

      I ran old school CoC with a core book for years, the system is that simple, Irum ot of systems but d00 is my fall back

    • @icedriver2207
      @icedriver2207 Рік тому +1

      @@alimargaming8722 I like Acthung Cthulu and Conan both by Modiphius.

  • @BX-advocate
    @BX-advocate 2 роки тому +49

    You get bonus points for suggesting Old-School Essentials twice, it is my favorite RPG by far and as I imagined D&D was supposed to be. But your general point of trying other RPGs is also great and I think people should be more open minded. Great video!

  • @GoliathcraftLP
    @GoliathcraftLP 2 роки тому +118

    Just like you mentioned in your amazing video, my issue with 5e is that it tries to be a lot and have mass appeal, but ends up not doing anything great. It’s not thought out enough to be highly tactical. It’s not rules light enough to be quick and fast. I at first found it strange how I love games like Pathfinder 2e or Blades in the Dark, 2 games that are at the polar opposites. Then I realized it is because both focused on what they are good at.
    PS: thank you for helping me introduce to new systems and worlds, I smile at all your new videos

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +18

      Thanks for watching my channel. And yes, it’s all about focus. That’s what makes a game potentially great.

    • @paulbigbee
      @paulbigbee 2 роки тому +10

      Hasbro/WotC also take no risks in their content and thus, much like other large corporate brands chained to “tentpole” franchises, they’re a victim of their own success.

    • @ollywright
      @ollywright 2 роки тому +6

      Pathfinder 2e and Blades in the Dark are my two favourite TTRPGS. Sometimes we like crunchy combat, sometimes we like fiction-first!

    • @lorenzovaletti4951
      @lorenzovaletti4951 2 роки тому +2

      Very well said!

  • @reeven1721
    @reeven1721 2 роки тому +154

    *Dave:* "D&D 5e is a pain in the neck to run."
    *Me, who will never abandon PF1:* "Ahaha yes it is." /looks around nervously

    • @KalonOrdona2
      @KalonOrdona2 2 роки тому +4

      Pathfinder is so great. I haven't tried 2E. I like how they're leaning hard into Feats but I heard it's not actually that good otherwise

    • @MrJerichoPumpkin
      @MrJerichoPumpkin 2 роки тому +16

      but it is. Really. How do you cope with characters that until the tenth level are nearly unstoppable, then all of a sudden you can either TPK them with no effort or put them against a no challenge after the other? While it has some good ideas, overall 5e sucks really hard

    • @sinisterthoughts2896
      @sinisterthoughts2896 2 роки тому

      Indeed.

    • @edathompson2
      @edathompson2 Рік тому +1

      @Marco Della Torre I ran a campaign from 1st to 9th. 4 characters died. 1 died in the final battle.
      I don't use the CR system

    • @BiologyIsHot
      @BiologyIsHot Рік тому +3

      Yeah I have no idea what he is talking about with difficulty of running 5E, it's whole shtick is being pretty bare bones rules.

  • @JediNiyte
    @JediNiyte 2 роки тому +125

    My main complaint as a DM is the fact that I have to do most of the design work. Nowhere is this more important than what they've done with skills. Basically, the skill system is a few descriptors, followed by "and the DM will set all the Difficulty numbers". I don't WANT to be designing hazards and traps and skill tests. I want a 5E version of 3.5 where skills were detailed and laid out EXACTLY what you could do on a convenient table.
    Also, the rules are scattered all over the place throughout the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and several other supplemental materials. If you don't have this stuff memorized, you can easily chew up half of your playtime flipping through books looking for rules.
    Organizationally and visually, this version is a MESS.

    • @icedriver2207
      @icedriver2207 Рік тому +10

      Having no real guidance just opens up things to generate lots of arguing.

    • @nemooh
      @nemooh Рік тому +1

      " I want a 5E version of 3.5 where skills were detailed and laid out EXACTLY" Cool. I want the exact opposite of that.
      "I don't WANT to be designing hazards and traps and skill tests." Maybe you should consider another hobby or something, bc this is exactly what a DM in a roleplaying game does.

    • @chandlerpearce6213
      @chandlerpearce6213 Рік тому +15

      @@nemooh that is the actual fundamental problem with people think DnD is THE ttrpg experience
      You don’t necessarily need to play other systems because DnD 5e is “bad”, but it is very likely it just isn’t what a lot of people actually want

    • @robinmohamedally7587
      @robinmohamedally7587 Рік тому +15

      @@nemooh I appreciate that you probably liked your own comment, because no one else would, but no. That is NOT exactly what a DM in a roleplaying game does. There are plenty of modules that do this for you. There isn't any one way to play the game, despite your limited intellect.

    • @robinmohamedally7587
      @robinmohamedally7587 Рік тому +9

      @@nemooh "Cool. I want the exact opposite of that." Cool. No one cares. You're not important, to be factual, here.

  • @Mekcanikel
    @Mekcanikel 2 роки тому +114

    I'm beginning to move away from 5E slowly but surely. While I have enjoyed playing games with a small group over discord, and I will credit it for introducing me to TTRPGs, it is still flawed at the end of the day and it's becoming increasingly difficult for any of us not to notice those issues. I'm glad for stumbling across this channel as it's introduced me to a wide range of RPGs and RPG systems. I'm beginning to take the dive into other systems, looking at forged in the dark, or powered by the apocalypse games.

    • @ZeroGrav122
      @ZeroGrav122 2 роки тому +4

      That's actually good and very empowering as a Player (or DM) that you are going into new systems because of it. Truly a lot of good games have been out for a while and could honestly use a bit of love and it'll be good to get other players too hopping on board of there's a GM around that can go:
      __"I can run this. And I'll help you along to enjoy it. No problem."__
      Currently I know how to run DCC, Basic Fantasy RP, CoC, and even Barbarians of Lemuria since im a very pulp fantasy style GM :) more power to us 🤘

    • @Desertpuma
      @Desertpuma 2 роки тому +3

      You should look into FantasyCraft is a fantasy system
      Been gaming for over 40 years and I left d&d after 4E came out.
      I've played over 40 different game systems and all sorts of genres and had loads of fun without playing d&d

    • @jessehupp44
      @jessehupp44 Рік тому +3

      I like shadowrun, old school world of darkness, and deadlands. Rifts, little fears, and earthdawn are good as well

  • @Pippinmog
    @Pippinmog 2 роки тому +144

    I'm happy to see Adventures in Middle Earth being displayed on this video. It has become my personal 5E guide and not just for Tolkien's world. It was only this year I explained to my group that I will not be running 5E D&D as a DM anymore because I keep running into the same problems time and time again (in fact I now avoid purchasing anything from WotC), but luckily my group enjoyed the Adventures in Middle Earth system so I got good support.
    We also enjoy Cyberpunk Red, Alien, Call of Cthulhu, the Red Dwarf roleplaying game, Judge Dredd (the 1980's Gamesworkshop version!) and Conan (2d20 system).

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +18

      An enlightened group.

    • @jmscalercio
      @jmscalercio 2 роки тому +8

      I liked what I saw of Lord of the Rings 5e from Free League. Never ran it. TOR 2e is also a fine game.

    • @loozerid
      @loozerid 2 роки тому +2

      To bad the middle earth books are Oop i just cant justify 200 for a player guide

    • @Frostrazor
      @Frostrazor 2 роки тому +10

      If you like Middle Earth 5e, I highly recommend you check out The One Ring roleplaying Game by Free League.

    • @Desertpuma
      @Desertpuma 2 роки тому

      Have you tried FantasyCraft by Crafty Games? ... It's the unknown cousin to 3.5 and Pathfinder first edition

  • @rontalkstabletop
    @rontalkstabletop 2 роки тому +34

    Dave Thaumavore coming in hot with a spicy D&D take! Good points.

  • @sergeantstime
    @sergeantstime 2 роки тому +71

    Agree with you 100%. Whenever a corporate hegemony starts using terms like 'under-monetized" it's time to find new outlets. I was astounded that they were so open about it. It will be interesting to see how WotC plans to strangle third party content creators with a 'new and improved' open gaming license'.

    • @johnymey4034
      @johnymey4034 2 роки тому +1

      Reeeeeee

    • @markkreitler519
      @markkreitler519 Рік тому +3

      "Under-monetized" is laughable for a system that more or less requires 3x $50+ dollar books to play past level 3. I can buy the master edition of ICRPG for under $20, and it's the only book I need to run any genre of game (and it includes 5 full campaign settings in that single book). It hurts me to see people start the hobby with D&D, given the expense and the alternatives...

    • @sergeantstime
      @sergeantstime Рік тому +2

      @@markkreitler519 When a company brazenly tells me they are going to 'monetize' my hobby, it's time to find a new hobby. This is similar for other hobbies; need the newest gadget or the latest upgrade. We're just conduits for the flow of money. I'll stick to my previous editions of D&D and do without the fancy video 'chrome'.

    • @markkreitler519
      @markkreitler519 Рік тому +1

      @@sergeantstime Agreed. That's why I bailed on D&D in the 90s. I switched over to Hero, where I could buy 1 book and run and campaign in any genre I wanted. But I appreciate that no one system fits everyone. That's why, when my son got interested in the hobby, I recommended Basic Fantasy -- it's a great intro to the hobby for $5.00 -- no "rpg chrome" getting in the way of the fun.

    • @sergeantstime
      @sergeantstime Рік тому

      @@markkreitler519 I'll have to look up Hero. Sounds like it might be a good replacement for D&D.

  • @boriscat1999
    @boriscat1999 2 роки тому +10

    I gave all my 5e stuff away about 4 years ago. My main complaint is that it came up short for rules for adventuring and it wanted player characters to get very powerful very quickly. You can pick up a reprint of D&D Basic/Expert or Rules Cyclopedia and have rules for water travel, rules for creating domains, and more. And B/X is simpler and easier to add and remove rules without breaking. At the other end of the complexity spectrum, Pathfinder character options are way deeper than 5e and the character growth is throttled more like what I would expect from high fantasy literature. (sorry, I love the trope of the neophyte starting from small beginning rising up to become the hero)

  • @raspberrymilkshake5782
    @raspberrymilkshake5782 2 роки тому +78

    I stuck with 5e for years because it was all anyone played but then I got the One Ring Second edition because I'm a huge Tolkien nut and when it arrived at my doorstep, I spent hours just pouring over the book admiring it's actual physical beauty, high quality weighty paper and a silk bookmark and such a concise visual style, it felt like pouring over an ancient tome putting together my first oneshot in the system. Haven't been able to go back to D&D since, everything else in the ttrpg sphere is such a labor of love that puts Wizards to shame.

    • @jasonandkrishandy-kraus123
      @jasonandkrishandy-kraus123 2 роки тому +6

      One Ring is a fantastic game that captures the spirit of Middle Earth and makes players feel part of it. A true labor of love.

    • @raspberrymilkshake5782
      @raspberrymilkshake5782 2 роки тому +4

      @@jasonandkrishandy-kraus123 totally, it also being a western fantasy themed system but having such a wonderful and unique atmosphere that perfectly captured Tolkien's books was what made me realize how much I'd been missing out on just playing DND. I'm a pretty big fantasy fan so it makes up most of my RPG bookshelf, but every system still has its own identity and I couldn't part with any of them.

    • @Frostrazor
      @Frostrazor 2 роки тому +4

      I love The One Ring. But I prefer the 1st edition personally from Cubicle7.
      the Middle Earth Roleplaying Game for 5E was a really good (but not perfect) attempt to blend it and 5e together. I ran an online game of that on Fantasy Grounds after the shutdowns in 2020, which we recently just completed. 5e was better supported on FG, was the reason. But given an option I'd play TOR tabletop any day. TOR and Blades in the Dark are my two go-to games now.

    • @raspberrymilkshake5782
      @raspberrymilkshake5782 2 роки тому

      @@Frostrazor I never really got the appeal of the 5e stuff tbh, both adventures in middle earth and the new Free League one. Could just get the full thing for about the same cost and have a more authentic experience.

    • @stevekillgore9272
      @stevekillgore9272 2 роки тому

      The folks who made The One Ring did amazing work. I recall the Iron Claw Enterprises (ICE) Middle Earth RPG's with great fondness too.

  • @Lesandira
    @Lesandira 2 роки тому +36

    I switched to Pathfinder 2E earlier this year and so far I really enjoy it

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +6

      Nice. I would like to review that game but I feel I really need to understand it forward and backward before doing so.

    • @kryptonianguest1903
      @kryptonianguest1903 2 роки тому +3

      @@DaveThaumavore Highly recommend running the Beginner's Box if you haven't already. It's great for introducing the rules a few at a time. Just make sure your players are OK with it being just a tutorial rather than a full fledged game session.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +2

      @@kryptonianguest1903 I’ll check it out! Thanks!

    • @subotai358
      @subotai358 2 роки тому +4

      I was sort of turned off by not being able to thematically build the character I wanted without making a less effective character. I hate the optimization philosophy but always find myself pushed in that direction.

    • @Brian-uq6jm
      @Brian-uq6jm 4 місяці тому +1

      I play 2E but haven't GM'ed it, but I hear it's a godsend for any GM moving from DnD 5E. All the CRs work flawlessly and it's a heaven to GM compared to DnD 5E.
      I'll start PF2 Beginner Box with my daughter soon.

  • @Satrianixd
    @Satrianixd 2 роки тому +12

    Hi there I'm Derek Ruiz (Elven Tower). I was featured in WotC's book Candlekeep Mysteries. I wrote one of the adventures for that book. I got paid about 1k for the job and it was all fun and dandy. But now looking back, I agree with you. I think I was a tad underpaid but the experience was awesome and I got to exchange emails with some top Gs in WotC, even if it was all about just the job at hand.
    Later a freelanced once for Arcadia magazine and they paid a higher rate. When put in perspective, it doesn't make sense that the smaller publisher pays better that the largest shareholder in the market.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +6

      Thanks for sharing! Yeah, it's really strange that they don't pay top dollar. Their operating budget is insane compared to everyone else in the "hobby." But I guess we know the answer. At least you had a cool experience!

    • @jasonjacobson1157
      @jasonjacobson1157 16 днів тому +2

      TSR was paying $5k each for 24 page modules in the early 80s. Check the inflation rate since then to see how hard you got screwed.

    • @Satrianixd
      @Satrianixd 16 днів тому

      @@jasonjacobson1157 Oh man....

  • @tomemaster1744
    @tomemaster1744 2 роки тому +17

    The problem I have always experienced is I wanna play a TTRPG that isn’t DnD5E, but when you mention TTRPG everyone else wants to play DnD5E because it’s the most well known. It’s even more funny because I actually want to be a GM, but everyone wants the Matt Mercer experience which I am 100% sure is an experience I cannot deliver. I’m hoping 2023 is my year where I get it all running, instead of endless procrastination searching for a system that isn’t 5E.

    • @snowtsukasa6662
      @snowtsukasa6662 2 роки тому +7

      As a dm myself, that started thanks to Critical Roll I learned VERY quickly that isn't going to happen, and no matter how good of a dm you are, you may never come close. Critical Roll and the other popular streams have "professional players" who can almost run the game without a dm at some points thanks to their interactions with each other. My experience, it's hard to get people to get into character and have meaningful Roll play moments.
      My tip for any new dms is to learn your style. What works, and doesn't work for you. Don't imitate what you see, and tmdojt be afraid to try new things. Not every group is for everyone, and that's fine.
      5e is the most popular, and common system to find for new players. From a players side of things, it's simple to learn, and easier to teach others to play. That's not a bad thing. It can be used as a tool to meet new people, and form a larger group that's willing to delve into other systems and try new things.

    • @robinmohamedally7587
      @robinmohamedally7587 Рік тому +5

      I don't fucking WANT to deliver a Matt Mercer experience. I want to deliver a ME experience. They cannot handle that, they can never play again, because they're never going to find a GM who does things exactly like him. no two are the same

    • @rickymartin4457
      @rickymartin4457 6 місяців тому

      I agree with all of you, and I think a big part of the problem is that Critical Role and similar high-budget shows deliver exactly that; a show. No matter how much is scripted or not, they play for an audience. Do you do the same at your kitchen table with your friends? Ofc not, but people get the idea, that as you mentioned that every TTRPG has to be that epic storytelling experience.
      And tbqh, I think playing TTRPGs as a mix of storytelling + videogame is an inferior way of enjoying this hobby. I'm not saying it's wrong per se, you do what you enjoy, but this self-imposed need of GM's to feed their players a "cinematic" story with twists and turns, is not healthy, not for the GM and neither for the players and the expectations it creates.

  • @russelljackson8153
    @russelljackson8153 Рік тому +15

    Remember modules? They would be like 25 pages long, have removable maps and often, artwork. They were concise adventures with just enough details that any DM could quickly get up to speed and send players off. Now they are "campaigns" bound in hardcover, with no removable maps or artwork to show players.

    • @spencesanders7879
      @spencesanders7879 20 днів тому

      @@russelljackson8153 modules are alive and well. Just not a WotC driven price gouge. Many non D&D games still have modules available. As for the hideously overpriced low content "campaigns", most are thinly veil "cut and paste" from previous incarnations with encounter stats changed to 5th Ed. The big issue is they tend to abandon 60% of the content and put out a barely usable adventure. The Spelljammer fiasco is a prime example of how little regard they hold their customers. A cold calculated F you to the gullible they prey on.

  • @dwarvernbard9782
    @dwarvernbard9782 2 роки тому +25

    I've played and run 5e at my local game store and 3.5, I've always prefered 3.5 because of its more complete rules in the core books that include things that 5e players want for 5e(crafting and worldbuilding details in the DMG). I'm coming out of a couple 5e games in the next few weeks and I've decided to pick up 3.5 again to run and I've got a crowd ready and waiting for non 5e content

  • @williamdavis7274
    @williamdavis7274 2 роки тому +37

    Makes me proud of our hobby. DIY spirit is in the DNA of ttrpgs... as is shown by Your and Ben's channel.. there has never been such a glut of creativity in the indie rpg scene. So many amazing publications and an audience hungry for invovation ...

  • @teh201d
    @teh201d 2 роки тому +12

    Thousands of pages of rules with a * at the end that says "or just do whatever we don't know how this works either and we were hoping you would have stopped reading by now teehee"

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +2

      It’s so adorable.

    • @teh201d
      @teh201d 2 роки тому +1

      I asked my group to move to Savage Worlds, starting tomorrow.

    • @pallenda
      @pallenda 2 роки тому +1

      Holy crap that is a super observation!
      Just think if board games did the same.

  • @brianstewart23
    @brianstewart23 16 днів тому +5

    I still have my original AD&D books from the early 80s. I also have a notebook of homebrew rules that have been created over the past 40 years. Why would I need anything else?

  • @josephkrausz9557
    @josephkrausz9557 2 роки тому +88

    I love how brutal (and truthful) this video is and at the same time you manage to give a great quick guide to a bunch of games. Great stuff.

  • @KyleMaxwell
    @KyleMaxwell 2 роки тому +12

    So glad you brought up Orion Black's experiences at WotC, which have been backed up and validated by other folks there.

    • @Skulliver-t8q
      @Skulliver-t8q 2 роки тому

      WOTC love virtue signaling and then treating people poorly. They just keep doubling down on yelling how great they are when they are not even making a well crafted game.

  • @simmonslucas
    @simmonslucas 2 роки тому +42

    It is hard to run. You don't hold anything back. I can't agree more.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +2

      Thanks!

    • @carolinelabbott2451
      @carolinelabbott2451 2 роки тому +9

      It's also hard to play. I like rules to be clear and unbloated. I have the player guide, the DMs guide, and 2 Box sets. I see no reason to ever buy any more WOTC products. Third party material is way better. Any other RPG system is better than DnD 5e.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +3

      @@carolinelabbott2451 Hard agree.

    • @elgatochurro
      @elgatochurro 2 роки тому +3

      The rules are too much and not enough at the same time...

  • @AudioEpics
    @AudioEpics 2 роки тому +23

    I like how you mentioned Fantasy Age (and of course, Dragon Age, which it's based on and which comes with its own detailed setting) and 13th Age (which I think is awesome). And if you're on a budget, let's not forget Basic Fantasy RPG. It's got everything you could want from an old-school D&D type of experience, including a whole bunch of adventures and campaigns, and it's 100% free!

  • @iammojo75
    @iammojo75 2 роки тому +85

    I love that you included ICRPG in your assessments, Been following RuneHammer for years now and he's always worked harder than anyone to bring to life his vision of a more fun, easier, quicker game!

  • @thelaughingman4791
    @thelaughingman4791 2 роки тому +47

    1000% agree. I think you correctly identified the problems and the recommendations have my stamp of approval (I'll also shout out EZD6, Knave, and Barbarians of Lemuria). I've been seeing a lot of people make similar videos since Ben dropped the 'DM crisis' video, and I've heard people grumbling these things in forums for years, but I think this is easily the best video on the topic now.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +4

      Wow, thanks for saying so!

    • @federerlkonig330
      @federerlkonig330 2 роки тому

      Barbarians of Lemuria's magic system is a damn masterpiece.

    • @Ptaku93
      @Ptaku93 2 роки тому

      @@federerlkonig330 how does it work?

    • @federerlkonig330
      @federerlkonig330 2 роки тому

      @@Ptaku93 It is a "freeform". You have your pool of arcane points. And there are cantrips and spells of three magnitudes. For cantrips you only Need to spell 1 or 2 points, while actual spells require more points and some components, of which the rarity increases with the magnitudes. The best part Is that you decide the effect of the Spell and the components, there Is no an actual Spell list, only examples. And you can choose additional components ti decrease the cost.

  • @Mantorp86
    @Mantorp86 2 роки тому +10

    I have 4 books from 5e. I like them when reading before bed time but not for playing. I fell in love with Old School Essentials. They are so straith forward and easy to navigate.

  • @wilonascave
    @wilonascave 2 роки тому +8

    I love Blades in the Dark, Advanced Tiny Dungeon, Dungeon World, Savage Worlds etc.. BUT I started playing (Solo) with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay in the 80s and I just got back into after a very long time and I’m loving it!

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +2

      That sounds like a lot of fun!

    • @NefariousKoel
      @NefariousKoel 2 роки тому +1

      WFRP is a classic. I still occasionally break out my old 1st edition to peruse. Inspiring style and content.

  • @horseradishpower9947
    @horseradishpower9947 2 роки тому +9

    I have never played DnD. But have played many other games...
    I feel sorry for those who have never played anything else. They are missing out on a lot.

  • @kye698
    @kye698 13 днів тому +2

    1:03 that makes me sad before even playing 😭 mythical sesh is crazy

  • @BudsRPGreview
    @BudsRPGreview 2 роки тому +36

    Totally agree with what you say here. The rules for familiars delivering spells in combat make the vein in my forehead pulse uncontrollably.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +7

      Thanks, Bud, now my forehead is pulsing.

  • @tome7998
    @tome7998 2 роки тому +9

    From what I'm seeing from a lot of rpg books and supplements the "writers need to meet a page count at all costs" and thus putting in filler after filler after filler isn't restricted to 5e/WOTC but sadly very very common nowadays (and it makes quite a few rpgs hard to read)

  • @onealflynn2414
    @onealflynn2414 2 роки тому +23

    Five Torches Deep is a very watered down version of 5e that leans more to OSR. I think that is a good jumping point to leaving 5e and going to the OSR.

    • @broke_af_games9661
      @broke_af_games9661 2 роки тому

      Agreed. That's where I jumped into our style games, but it really leaves you wanting imo, but it's an easy plug and Play.

    • @whatfruit7965
      @whatfruit7965 2 роки тому +1

      Try Shadow of The Demon Lord it kicks buttock

    • @broke_af_games9661
      @broke_af_games9661 2 роки тому

      @@whatfruit7965 I will be looking into it for sure, but I do got to say that I'm a little skeptical it sounds a little much on the brutal side and a lot of my players are more towards casual and new, with a power gamer thrown into the mix.
      My goal is to find or make a game that has the following criteria:
      • low page count
      • at a glance (like five torches deep where no ability or spell exceeds five words long in description)
      • robust customization without a class system
      Basically if groups wasn't 8001 pages long I would probably go that direction. But I just don't want to deal with it.
      I also love how five torches deep works where everything you need to know about that specific section is on the page spread. no more no less. It's elegant and well thought out

    • @sethpeterson8261
      @sethpeterson8261 Рік тому

      @@broke_af_games9661 glancing through my bookshelf and here are some that might be worth looking at for you (have hundreds, but these jumped out based on what you said)
      Barbarians of Lemuria (freaking. Awesome.)
      Open D6 or D6 Fantasy (if you can find them)
      Mork Borg
      Black Hack
      White Hack
      Best Left Buried
      Mazes
      Fantasy Age
      By this Ax I Hack
      Magic & Monsters (brilliant)
      Legends of Steel: Barbarians of Lemuria or Bash Fantasy versions
      ICRPG (mentioned in this vid)
      Talisman Rpg
      Red Mists
      Forbidden Lands
      DCC
      Jaws of the 6 Serpents
      Low Fantasy Gaming
      Scarlet Heroeelric (or BRP system games in general)
      most of those are light with a lot of flavor. Some of those might hit at least close to what you're looking for. However my taste runs more towards Sword & Sorcery than DnD generic high fantasy

    • @sethpeterson8261
      @sethpeterson8261 Рік тому

      @@whatfruit7965 just realized a game that might tick all your boxes is Dragon Bane. It isn't out yet, and you can't get the beta unless you backed it on Kickstarter, but you can Late Pledge a copy for access right now I think.
      It's the newest English iteration of Drakar och Demoner, derived from a d20 based BRP ruleset, simplified and streamlined for fast play. High fantasy. Definitely check it out

  • @Elighght
    @Elighght 7 місяців тому +4

    The Pinkerton incident tells me everything I need to know

  • @Blueoriontiger
    @Blueoriontiger Рік тому +2

    9:35 - You're right with these people not playtesting or even touching the game. Now that the OGL saga has ended, it's come out that Chris Gao (from Bizzard's Diablo team if I recall correctly), is one of the people behind the VTT that WotC is creating. He himself has stated that "I've not touched the game, and feel that trying to play it is distracting myself from the goal at hand."

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  Рік тому

      Yeah that guy is a real piece of work.

    • @MatthewCenance
      @MatthewCenance Рік тому

      Playing the game is a distraction from making the VTT from the game? If that's the case, either the current mindset is not conductive, or that person needs to be cut out and replaced with someone else.

  • @lima3689
    @lima3689 2 роки тому +8

    My friends and I started playing RPG on World of Darkness' Vampire The Masquerade, and after that already began trying some more niche/indie titles. These titles were often very straightfoward on its designs, and as I was usually the GM for most of the time, it was insane to see the changes while transitioning to D&D, since we grew used to fast paced combat and simpler rules.
    We simply hated D&D and its official modules. The combat was slow (and why the fuck do they put so many combat encounters?), the grid was a complete mess, the choices were boring, the lack of social systems were outrageous (for a party that was mostly used to make very social characters and relied mostly on the actual roleplaying aspect). For a "combat & dungeon crawling system" D&D was a complete letdown.
    Then we tried to use D&D as base for our own adventures and... It was also bad, unbalanced and boring. We ended up homebrewing so much that it almost can't be called D&D anymore.
    TL;DR, base D&D is really bad. Modify the fuck out of it, or simply choose a different system lol, there are so many better options.

  • @BBGunsPGH
    @BBGunsPGH 2 роки тому +8

    3.5 definitely has a crazy amount of options and can be too crunchy for 5e players. It's good for sure but it's a different flavor of rpg all together

  • @whatfruit7965
    @whatfruit7965 2 роки тому +20

    Shadow of the Demon Lord is an underrated system and takes a hammer to the sacred cows of the D&D/PF orthodoxy . It’s by far the most intuitive straight forward base system to grok and run flying by the seats of your pants fantasy rpg. .

    • @GavinRalston13
      @GavinRalston13 Рік тому +1

      More people need to read Shadow of the Demon Lord, especially if they want d20-esque play that's even quicker than base 5E, or if they want to try Warhammer style grimdark fantasy without purchasing licensed material from another IP Shitlord in GW.

    • @stormblessed1794
      @stormblessed1794 Рік тому

      I am excited for the Shadow of the Weird Wizard because I love SotDL rules but want neither its lethality nor grimdark and lets-make-this-intentionally-gross elements at my table (and do not have as much time to tweak these things myself).

  • @ThisEpicLife
    @ThisEpicLife 14 днів тому +1

    Back in the 80’s, I played the following (off the top of my head), fairly regularly:
    D&D, Gamma World, Star Frontiers, Gang Busters, Bushido, Marvel Superheroes, James Bond, Star Trek, Space Opera, Chill!, Traveller, Boot Hill, Star Wars, and I’m certain a half-dozen others that I’m forgetting.
    …and btw, yes, it actually WAS very much like Stranger Things and Critical Role. If your games aren’t like that, it’s probably because you either have an unimaginative GM, or (more likely) you’re playing with strangers instead of your best friends. THAT’S what made it magical.

  • @twistednwarped314
    @twistednwarped314 2 роки тому +24

    As a relatively new DM who been struggling with 5e while beginning to think it was just me that found it to be klunky, slow, and sometimes even counterintuitive for both me and my players, I'm glad I watched this. I'll be looking into other options for my next campaign due to this so go ahead and take my like, subscription, and thanks. Cause seriously, Thank you.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +1

      Glad I could help.

    • @Desertpuma
      @Desertpuma 2 роки тому

      I was just looking into FantasyCraft by Crafty Games

  • @rainstorm1589
    @rainstorm1589 2 роки тому +36

    I've been playing 5e for most of my ttrpg career and I gotta say, though I still enjoy playing it with my friends I don't think it's the fact that it's 5e that we're enjoying it. Hard to get people to learn new rulesets at least in my experience but I thought your video made really great points especially when it comes to how workers are treated by WoTC, I think that's a massive issue as well as the barrier to entry with how expensive books are. Also nice to see someone with critiques that don't amount to "OMG WOTC IS GOING WOKE"

    • @99zxk
      @99zxk 2 роки тому +4

      WOTC, or any corp, going woke is commercialized compassion used to sell products.

    • @rainstorm1589
      @rainstorm1589 2 роки тому +2

      @@99zxk oh yeah I mean its totally in bad faith by WoTC I just don't think trying to be inclusive in our games is a bad thing in general, despite corporations using these things purely as a marketing tactic

    • @99zxk
      @99zxk 2 роки тому

      @@rainstorm1589 sure, but you could always play whatever you wanted, right?

    • @elgatochurro
      @elgatochurro 2 роки тому

      Savage Worlds is honestly so rules simple and light I can wave anything I don't understand.
      It's also workable for EVERY setting you might ever come up with. No need for another rulebook.

  • @kerravon4159
    @kerravon4159 7 днів тому +4

    The best version of D&D is just to forget about D&D and homebrew your own fantasy game.

  • @FiscHwaecg
    @FiscHwaecg 2 роки тому +37

    DnD actually stopped me from getting into the hobby until way to late. I've just started playing RPGs in my 30s because I always thought it's all about Dragons, Elves, Orcs and Dudes who argue about how much damage points a level 3 Barbarian does. I disregarded the hobby for most of my live until few years ago. No it's my main creative output and maybe my biggest hobby. I've been playing many games, experienced many stories and played with many diverse groups. None of the games I've played is DnD.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +12

      Yeah, in that sense, WotC is harming the hobby.

    • @natbarmore
      @natbarmore 2 роки тому +4

      Yup. I’ve worried for decades about all the people out there who would love RPing, but their only exposure is D&D (or GURPS, or Vampire, to name 2 other RPGs that at times rivaled D&D for visibility and popularity) and something specific to that game (the fantasy setting, the complex rules [that criticism applies to all 3 of them, at least since AD&D], playing vampires, etc.) turned them off. And they either didn’t know about other RPG‘s or they thought all RPG‘s shared that thing they didn’t like. so they never tried another one.
      Even lots of experienced roleplayers fall into this trap. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve encountered people who don’t want to try a new RPG because they think it will be as much effort to learn as DND or vampire or pathfinder or GURPS. Not every RPG requires reading several hundred pages and playing it for three months before you really have a handle on it, but if the only RPG you know is like that, you might assume they all are.

    • @Bobby3OOO
      @Bobby3OOO 2 роки тому +2

      @@DaveThaumavorehorseshit. They’ve put the hobby on the map. You have no idea how hard it was to even find the books and minis 35 years ago - much less the players. As a kid, I used to call the TSR offices and tell the receptionist that I wanted to ask a question about the Dragonlance setting, and they’d just go ask the designers and come give me an answer while I waited on hold. And that was like, 1992. Wotc has helped put ttrpgs on the map again

    • @thelordakira
      @thelordakira Рік тому

      @@Bobby3OOO Yes they did that in the 80's (put it on the map) , and then they have been strangling anything else since.
      Real OLD here.
      But there was already other systems back then.
      Rolemaster
      Palladium (20 + types)
      Warhammer fantasy
      Middle earth role playing
      Vampire: the masquarade
      Gurps
      star trek
      star wars
      shadowrun...
      there is almost a hundred different ones, but everyone talks about DnD. come on.

    • @sethpeterson8261
      @sethpeterson8261 Рік тому

      I first played BX in the early 80s and DnD has always been pretty easy to find. Most bookstores and comic shops carried it and Dragon magazine. It was even easier to find once ADnD hit.
      It was all the other games that existed that were tougher to discover. And even back then DnD had all the mindshare even though it wasn't the best ruleset

  • @friendsnotfound1228
    @friendsnotfound1228 2 роки тому +4

    My Party and I have tried many game Systems before eventually setteling on Pathfinder as our go to.
    We dipped our toes into D&D 5e but it didn't catch us as much.
    Then A few months ago i have discovered Basic Fantasy and the World of OSR and it's so amazing to me that BF has very quickly become one of my favorite games (although we still mostly play Pathfinder)

  • @AlternateGM
    @AlternateGM 10 місяців тому +2

    Watching this in Feb 2024, I see this was recorded as the early whispers of the as the OGL debacle were coming out.

  • @DocRey17
    @DocRey17 2 роки тому +18

    Agree 100%! Glad to see you giving Savage Worlds some air time on your channel, both in this video and your recent review of Holler. Lots of excellent alternatives to 5e out there for everyone. Keep up the great content!

  • @devinbuettgenbach2941
    @devinbuettgenbach2941 2 роки тому +28

    A few games that deserve some attention that you didn't mention are Ten Candles, Stars Without Number, the entire World of Darkness from Mage all the way to Werewolf. There's also Monster of the Week and Final Fantasy 4E.

    • @SoulDoesThings0991
      @SoulDoesThings0991 2 роки тому

      Another one that just came out is Die TTRPG (there is also a comic).

    • @gabriellana4366
      @gabriellana4366 Рік тому +2

      EARTHDAWN! Try the 4th edition!

    • @Lustvig
      @Lustvig 18 днів тому +1

      Traveller!

  • @vtheman1850
    @vtheman1850 11 місяців тому +3

    The point about the complexity, and how it can be a pain in the ass to run is spot on.
    BTW, my DM is great, 15+ years of experience, homebrews settings writes literal fucking books into his worlds etc, great at balancing... but in 5e... our last campaign.
    Level 4 party:
    1st Encounter 15 mins into the game almost a TPK;
    2nd Encounter, very similar in terms of enemies.... our sorc basically soloing the entire encounter.
    DnD 5E.

  • @robinmohamedally7587
    @robinmohamedally7587 Рік тому +6

    #6. It coddles and babies players, and the characters are invincible superheroes, and the monsters are all neutered, with entire abilities taken away from many of them, and very little to differentiate one monster from another. It's laaaaaaame.

  • @azuris0078
    @azuris0078 7 місяців тому +4

    I miss the days when fighting undead was actually scary. 1st edition was fun

  • @orwin5445
    @orwin5445 2 роки тому +6

    Video is a bit sensationalist but I agree with your sentiment. It's definitely time to start branching out from D&D to other TTRPGs. I will likely not be playing One D&D, and while I might see the movie if it gets good reviews I'm not die hard enough of a Forgotten Realms fan to feel the need regardless. Time to move on to Blades in the Dark, 13th Age, and I still have yet to crack out my copy of Heroes 6e.

  • @tmbacz
    @tmbacz 2 роки тому +7

    A couple of years ago I decided that I wanted to get back into RPG’s because I really enjoyed playing D&D back in the day. Bought a bunch of stuff and then discovered that what I really like is Sci Fi (Alien, Mothership, Hostile). Thankfully I didn’t go to far down the rabbit hole with 5e.

  • @nuriochi
    @nuriochi 2 роки тому +10

    First love the use of Peter and the Wolf at the end. Old favorite! Second I’m truly done with WotC for now. I can’t with a clear conscience keep buying this stuff. I’ve already moved on to other games but bought some books out of nostalgia (Spelljammer for example). Thanks for the great insights!

  • @lucastakeo7707
    @lucastakeo7707 2 роки тому +9

    Thank you, I'm glad to see someone talk about this topic directly and honestly.
    I feel that a lot of content creators that grew their public talking about 5e are unwilling to push back on the anti-consumer and monopolistic practicies of Hasbro and WotC cause they associate the success of the game to their own.

  • @connormoore9151
    @connormoore9151 2 роки тому +9

    I really appreciate this video! I also want to add that for anyone who likes grim dark: mörkborg which is super fast and super hard. Imagine the world is falling apart and you’re not adventurers trying to save it but just make a living stealing things and not trying to die. In one session, the world could end mid turn and that’s a part of the game. It’s black metal old school dnd.
    Another one I love is called hyperborea which does Robert e Howard inspired roleplay justice but includes more eldritch horror and even aliens if you so choose. It’s fascinating and terrifying.

    • @sethpeterson8261
      @sethpeterson8261 Рік тому

      Mork Borg is great.
      hyperborean is a reimagining of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons and is a great example of the fact that DnD isn't even the best version of itself. Any edition

  • @themaninblack7503
    @themaninblack7503 Рік тому +2

    I started with D&D and even then I never thought it was the best RPG out there

  • @mcashed
    @mcashed 2 роки тому +7

    To be fair, I'm an artist working in the tabletop gaming industry and WOTC is one of the best paying companies out there.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +4

      Well that's good to hear actually.

    • @bjhale
      @bjhale 2 роки тому +2

      Aren't they pretty strict on having artists follow their style guide? Tbh, a lot of 5e art looks very similar

    • @mcashed
      @mcashed 2 роки тому +1

      @@bjhale Companies generally have a vision for each project in mind and they hire artists to fit that vision. In another words, you either already do the style they want, or you don't get hired. This goes for WOTC, as well. Now, they do have somewhat robust design guidelines to follow, but that's not so much about the style of rendering as it is about the figure proportions of various races, cultural apparel, stuff like that.

  • @gentlemancorpse
    @gentlemancorpse 2 роки тому +25

    Great video. I got in with 5E, but constantly having to tell my players 'you can't do that' or 'that doesn't work like that that' pushed me out. Now me & my players are happily enjoying the vast TTRPG hobby in a variety of different games and genres!

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +2

      Congratulations on being free!

    • @Nathan-ti9pm
      @Nathan-ti9pm 2 роки тому +3

      See my thing is I’ll ask the DM if it’s possible to pull off so and so and if they say no I move on, I really hate when players try to argue about it as it’s like
      “Dude they said no already, stop trying to argue about it and take your turn already.”

  • @cybermerlyn2
    @cybermerlyn2 2 роки тому +10

    I am a huge fan of ttrpgs. At my age I find games like Pathfinder for Savage Worlds, ICRPG, and EZD6 to be a more interesting games than 5e, less overhead to play and it feels more pulp. If I am looking for something Grimm Dark I like games like Electric Bastionland or any of the OSR games. The thing I look forward to, and the only reason I have to buy any new games at this point, is centered around one word, innovation, if a game has some new mechanic or process that improves play I will purchase the new game just to show love to the author. While I see that WotC has a new subscription model in One D&D, I am just not seeing any innovation in that space. It seems they are too tied to profit to take any chances on innovation.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +1

      I’m in the same boat always looking for innovation. WotC isn’t where I look either.

    • @jmscalercio
      @jmscalercio 2 роки тому

      My Gen X heart was happy when Rifts came out for Savage Worlds.

  • @dub3773
    @dub3773 2 роки тому +15

    FYI the Player's Handbook falling apart was a known issue for the original printing of the book. They actually fired the printing company they used after that and have issued replacements for free (even in 2022).

    • @Nexusofgeek
      @Nexusofgeek Рік тому +3

      yep my original PH fell apart after about a year but when I contacted WotC they sent me a free replacement.

  • @andynonimuss6298
    @andynonimuss6298 Рік тому +11

    WotC changes its alignment to Chaotic Evil.

  • @Goose_BooseYT
    @Goose_BooseYT 2 роки тому +9

    God thank you for talking about the horrendous power spike players receive in DND. It's something I know lots of players love and the biggest reason they abhor Pathfinder 2E, but as a DM, it's incredibly hard to just keep up with how far players go. By level 10 they're already legendary heroes, and by 14 they're god killers, and 20 is just, I mean, who cares? TThe game ENCOURAGES solo-play, as in, every player shining over the others, instead of working like a team like in an actual multiplayer game. With the rise of Critical Role, this only inflates a player's idea of what they should expect. Everyone thinks they can be Scanlon or Grogg etc, thinking they have to be god slaying bombastic characters, when really they can be interesting in their own way without being all that powerful.
    As mentioned before, lots of players don't like P2E and that's mainly because it doesn't encourage single player modes, as in, no one hero will ever be a God Killing War Machine like in DND 5E. Pathfinder 2E's combat more focuses on survival, tactical thinking, roleplay, and most importantly, teamwork, otherwise everyone dies. You have NO IDEA how many people complain online in forums and on the subreddit about how they hate that their characters can't beat a Level 6 Captain Orc while they're only level 4. It's infuriating, as I've even seen some DND channels who at first, PRAISED Pathfinder 2E for being a great RPG, back down on their praise as they reach higher levels and realize "wait, why am I not a super cool epic badass killer at level 8? Wtf? This game's trash!".
    I just wish more 5E players explore games other than DND, because from what I've seen people live, breathe, eat and die by 5E, so it's hard to expect any change from that any time soon.

    • @supermasterball1
      @supermasterball1 2 роки тому +1

      Personally love PF2e, especially with on how balanced everything is in that system. It makes you have to think about every action you do. I also enjoy on how the feat system allows for good customization without overwhelming players.

  • @FatalKitsune
    @FatalKitsune 2 роки тому +11

    Cannot recommend Savage Worlds Adventure Edition enough. It's fast, simple, and extremely flexible.

    • @helloblocks.4310
      @helloblocks.4310 2 роки тому

      Actually found this video searching for Savage World videos to try and get in. Seems really cool!

    • @sethpeterson8261
      @sethpeterson8261 Рік тому

      It is good. Not in my top personal top 10, but worlds better in design and play than 5e

    • @alderaancrumbs6260
      @alderaancrumbs6260 Рік тому

      Savage Worlds is one of the best games around, able to handle many genres.

    • @Brian-uq6jm
      @Brian-uq6jm 4 місяці тому

      Years ago a kind GM ran Mansions of Madness for us using Savage Worlds rules instead of CoC. Those were some of the best play sessions I've ever had.

    • @Lustvig
      @Lustvig 18 днів тому

      To be honest Savage Worlds is one of those games you need to play to really get a feel for it. The writing in the books is good and can be inspiring in places, but it is certainly no first edition Star wars d6 from West end games in terms of writing style. That being said some of the rulings can be a little confusing but once you play you'll see the elegance. I call it an elegance simplicity system. For example I play a lot of modern games and automatic fire and suppressive fire are always problems. Savage rolls makes it stupidly easy so when I was running Savage world's Vietnam it was pretty easy to get the M60 gunner rocking and rolling without any issues.

  • @lukejf01
    @lukejf01 2 роки тому +15

    You recently asked what kind of content we as the audience would like to see more of. This is the kind of content we would like to see more of. Great work!

  • @DisguisedAsHuman
    @DisguisedAsHuman 2 роки тому +4

    I only recently got into 5e at the beginning of lockdowns. I’ve since been stockpiling games to play/run. Mothership, Mörk Borg, Bunnies and Burrows, games using the Cypher system and Monad Echo. I ran a Call of Cthulhu that was supposed to be a one-shot but everyone miraculously survived and have even asking to play again. There’s a lot out there.

  • @rcautela7405
    @rcautela7405 6 місяців тому +5

    Still surprised it takes folks this long to know that any DnD is just a messy minis game for odd power fantasies with a bad varnish of «roleplaying», correctly spelled «rollplaying».

    • @KopperNeoman
      @KopperNeoman 14 днів тому

      Rollplaying is right, and not a pejorative, because the goal of DnD was not to play out your authorial fantasies, but instead to downscale fantasy wargames to the size of fireteam-level battles.

    • @joemerino3243
      @joemerino3243 14 днів тому

      @@KopperNeoman *eyeroll* it's *roleplaying*, not because you're playing roles in a thespian sense, but because you're playing roles like 'fighter' or 'wizard', instead of the generalized and fungible 'soldiers' of wargames.

  • @Thatfurrygremlin
    @Thatfurrygremlin 2 роки тому +13

    Fantastic video that does a great job describing issues that important and pressing for the TTRPG hobby. I hope that this is spread throughout the player base and that people actually think about the points presented and do not simply act defensibly and leap to the standard, dogmatic defenses of 5e (which usually amount to "I do not want to try anything else).

  • @vigils
    @vigils 2 роки тому +7

    DnD 5E got me into Tabletop RPGs, so it will always have a place in my heart. However, that being said, as a GM since i find myself having to homebrew a lot of rules and mechanics and alter campaign storylines... i've decided to make my own personal system, mixed with some Cyberpunk 2020 and Mothership. I do still think DnD would be one of the cooler tabletops to introduce people to the hobby, can't imagine intro-ing newcomers straight to horror/ grimdark and hoping they like the suffering ahahah

  • @princealiaps3751
    @princealiaps3751 2 роки тому +5

    Good Points well made in this vid. I,ve played D&D eds up to 3.5 - shed my D&D collection around two years ago. My current campaigns up & running are : Runequest RPIGlorantha, Warhammer Fantasy 2nd ed & Modiphius Conan. Love the societal aspect of Glorantha, the dark filth of WHFRP & the moral ambiguity of the Hyborian Age. Class & level based D&D just doesn't cut it anymore. Dave's right about Free League - passionately made games, well bound books. My only gripes about FL is that their settings are very sandbox & it's quite difficult to die as a PC. I like strong death threat in my games!

  • @Francesco_Alessandro_Pizzino
    @Francesco_Alessandro_Pizzino Рік тому +5

    Thanks to the Cypher System (the core of Numenera), I became able to make new ttrpg player into new GMs. They now GM with no stress or fear, and they feel confident to play every genre (fantasy, sci-if, super hero, ecc.) or to resolve many difficults.

    • @elementzero3379
      @elementzero3379 Рік тому +1

      Cypher is great for this, and has some great settings and so much support content to boot!

  • @harz632
    @harz632 2 роки тому +4

    Great video, my biggest gripe with alternatives is that many great sounding ones are only in English, and while I personally have no problem with playing the games in English, my table would struggle and probably lose enthusiasm for these games due to it.
    What we tried out was HeXXen 1733 which came out natively in German and is a fun experience, not sure if they already translated it into English, but once they do it might be worth looking at it.

    • @alqdsemper221
      @alqdsemper221 2 роки тому

      Have you looked into Splittermond? Not sure if Uhrwerkverlag is still around, but I liked Splimo a lot. Base game used to be free, too. Some if the authors are former DSA writers, and you sorta can tell cause they avoided a lot of DSAs weird idiosyncracies.

    • @dodgingcars
      @dodgingcars 2 роки тому

      Savage Worlds is available in German

  • @theyonlycomeoutwhenitsquiet
    @theyonlycomeoutwhenitsquiet 2 роки тому +5

    I’ve only played 5e, but I’m personally pretty good at understanding it and making it function as a DM. My brother also runs TTRPG’s of all sorts, and so I’ve gotten exposure to different goals and different ideas of what a successful game session can look like. So, since I know it well, I can run it pretty easy.
    Truly, though? Third party content is the best version of 5e from what I’ve seen. Sure, it means you can’t use dndbeyond the same way, but to me that’s a small price to pay

  • @booksbricksandboards783
    @booksbricksandboards783 2 роки тому +6

    Great video! I have enjoyed and evangelized many of the same games you mentioned, and I couldn’t agree more. We have such an embarrassment of riches when it comes to choice, comparatively to when I was a kid in the 80’s, it is almost a blessing that Hasbro seems determined to fumble this flagship RPG, sheerly because it may give other games a chance to shine. After all, it was a similar fumble with 4th edition that led to one of my favorite alternatives in Pathfinder! It is a good time to be a gamer, even if it isn’t the best time to play the latest D&D products. One last thing, the product quality issue is staggering… I have books from North Wind Adventures, Burning Wheel Publishing, Chaosium, and Goodman Games that are so much more durable and beautifully assembled than anything from WoTC that an untrained eye would think WOTC was the Indy publisher!

  • @daves6220
    @daves6220 2 роки тому +4

    I have noticed today's game stores don't give a lot of shelf space to other RPG's vs 5e and Pathfinder. That wasn't the case 20 to 30 years ago.

  • @DUNGEONCRAFT1
    @DUNGEONCRAFT1 Рік тому +2

    Thanks for the shoutout. Still a Perkins fan, but I hear ya. Much love and respect. --Professor DungeonMaster

  • @jerotapia8185
    @jerotapia8185 9 місяців тому +2

    I am new in the hobby, last year my friends and I played the starter box campaign (i am the dm), and we had a lot of fun, we want to keep playing DnD, but i am also looking for other ttrpg systems to see which one we have mor fun with, so far i had played dnd 5e, CoC 7e and Avatar legends (PBTA system), and i am still looking for more, i had enjoyed more, but i can noticed the difference gming others systems and how flexible are the sessions with systems like PBTA, I sure want to try Pathfinder 2e some day, or City of mist and Blades in the dark are also a ttrpgs I am interested in playing (or gming, i have enjoyed being dm with my friends a lot) someday.

    • @ce5122
      @ce5122 2 місяці тому

      Pathfinder 2e is a great switch if you want dnd but MORE, the rules are also free and legal on Archives of Nethys. Blades in the Dark is also a lot of fun.

  • @jasonandkrishandy-kraus123
    @jasonandkrishandy-kraus123 2 роки тому +7

    Really well said, Dave. Way to take a well-thought out and principled stand. I buy and try a lot of different games and I’m doubling down on my support the indies this year.

  • @Iulian111
    @Iulian111 2 роки тому +9

    TLDR: Don't buy WOTC. If you really want to buy D&D 5e content, buy Third Party. You'll also find a lot of quality games out there that are not the bare minimum in content and production quality, regardless if you want a D20 or other type of system.
    What is bad for WOTC is good for the hobby!

  • @GMToolbox
    @GMToolbox 2 роки тому +5

    I have enjoyed 5e mainly because of the 3rd party D&D companies like Kobold Press, Nord Games, and AAW Games. I am worried for the future of these companies with Hasbro's plans for D&D moving forward. I am curious if we will see a splinter rule set like we did with Pathfinder. Like you said, there are 5e spin off rule sets that are better than core 5e. If everyone gets behind one and companies started making official content for it I would be all on board!

  • @paavohirn3728
    @paavohirn3728 Рік тому +9

    It seems more timely than ever that you bring up all these other systems to the knowledge of a wider audience. I will be recommending your channel more and more to people in the UA-cam rpg space for rpg system ideas.

  • @AnarchicArachnid
    @AnarchicArachnid Рік тому +4

    Literally am trying to pivot my table off dnd to other system

  • @hikikomicklori9290
    @hikikomicklori9290 2 роки тому +11

    Thank you for encapsulating that nagging feeling I've had about 5e for the last couple of published supplement the materials.

  • @deathweepss
    @deathweepss Рік тому +3

    5E is awesome, my sessions were pretty good. I changed the combat to Movement Phase, Action Phase, Movement Phase. Initiative still holds true, everyone moves first including enemies. Players can use partial movement to see what enemies do. Then there's the Action/Bonus Action phase where everyone goes in order. Then there's the final movement phase, where Players can expend the rest of their movement. Reactions/Ready/OppurtunityAttack happen in real time still. This creates a better scenario of combat with a fluent field, and it actually speeds up combat. Best part is, since initiative is still in play, the order in which things would happen still occur appropriately as if a player took their full turn before passing the torch, just sped up.

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  Рік тому

      Sounds like it’s working out for you. lol

    • @blakchristianbale
      @blakchristianbale 3 місяці тому

      How is it awesome if you’re dramatically changing the core rules?

  • @epicbrowndragon
    @epicbrowndragon Рік тому +4

    Heh, I stopped using the rules when it first came out. 😜
    Seriously, replaced it with Runehammers icrpg…
    … until recently replacing it with Monte Cooks Invisible Sun system.
    (Cypher System’s aroma is all over it… Invisible Sun is a system for peeps who love magic to the max!) 😊

  • @Warhammer_lover
    @Warhammer_lover 2 роки тому +2

    Hey, Dave! Love your content, and love that video. Could you recommend something fro a person who is not really good at TTRPGs (My whole background is two one-shots of 5e in Roll 20) but who really wants to make something for their friends, who are unfamiliar with the hobby entirely?

    • @DaveThaumavore
      @DaveThaumavore  2 роки тому +1

      EZD6 is really honed for easy fun. I did a review on it earlier this year.

  • @hammerhiem75
    @hammerhiem75 2 роки тому +4

    I've decided that I am going to homebrew character generation and fix up a couple of the classes that are underpowered and I can cherry pick the rules I like and those I don't.
    I want my Races to have stat bonuses, I want my Halflings to be inherently less strong than my Goliaths. But I also want feats to be important and plentiful, I like a background to give a stat boost and a feat, that's good. so I'm using that.
    I want my players to have sub races and each one to have a distinct flavour, and most importantly I want my Drow and Orcs to be Evil in nature.

  • @LVC_TV
    @LVC_TV 2 роки тому +6

    So I personally like 5e for its simplicity. I guess I’m in the minority on this, but it’s not hard to DM a session at all and I don’t see how people could find it difficult.
    As far as the “DM Shortage “ is concerned, it’s always been hard to find someone willing to run a game instead of play, no matter which RPG I’ve ever played. The fact that most people would rather play than run a session will always be true unfortunately (The term “forever DM” has existed pre 5e, and is reflective of the dichotomy no matter the system).
    I can appreciate your observations regarding the predatory monetization and IP theft from creatives of WOTC, so I feel you on that. That being said, I usually make up my own stuff and it seems to make my players happy. Is it professionally packaged and presented? Nope, but it doesn’t have to be (at least for my players).
    Thank you for the great video regarding your thoughts, but my ultimate conclusion is that I will keep playing 5e with my friends. Enjoyment is, as you so perfectly said in the video, subjective after all. Have a great day.

  • @maxhall7832
    @maxhall7832 Рік тому +3

    I would say it’s your attitude more than anything that is getting in the way of you having fun with 5e, as well as most of the people in this comment section. My friends have a blast playing. It’s not hard to learn. I will say this video has opened up my mind to some of the other ttrpgs out there. So thanks

  • @krinkrin5982
    @krinkrin5982 2 роки тому +3

    I'm running a long WFRP campaign and we are having lots of fun. Characters are surprisingly resilient for how much of a reputation the game has as being deadly. The gritty realism is quite refreshing and you can play as quite literally anyone in the universe, not just these vaguely heroic mercenaries (because let's face it, that's what D&D characters are).

    • @davidbrick6325
      @davidbrick6325 2 роки тому

      WFRP is probably my all-time favorite game. Which edition are you running? I strongly prefer 2e. I played 1e and loved it, but thought 2e was a big improvement in many ways: eliminating alignments and most magic items, having more supplements, etc.
      I tried 4e and sadly found it almost unplayable. Great art though.

    • @krinkrin5982
      @krinkrin5982 2 роки тому

      @@davidbrick6325 Running 2nd edition. I've taken one look at the newer ones and decided they are not for me. 3rd was basically a boardgame, and 4th went back on a lot of the improvements that 2nd made over 1st.

    • @sethpeterson8261
      @sethpeterson8261 Рік тому

      Love WFRP 1st, 2nd is also really good. Both good examples of games that are leaps better than stock DnD.
      Skipped 3 and own 4, but the art and presentation and layout is so bad I haven't even flipped through it all.
      Although I'm inclined to say that the best version is actually the re-release of Zweihander. I was shocked at how good it is

    • @krinkrin5982
      @krinkrin5982 Рік тому

      @@sethpeterson8261 Haven't read Zweihänder. Sounds like I should do that.
      Funny thing: As I started my RPG career with D&D 3rd, I sometimes feel myself wanting to add in the wacky things from that game, like expansive dungeons and weird monsters, because they could be fun, but they don't really fit in the setting. The dungeons might, though not in the way D&D does them. On the other hand, I also found myself struggling to build dungeons in the vein of classic massive sprawling underground complexes without filling them up with random stuff, or leaving them mostly empty. For the monsters, I've adapted a 'let's homebrew unique beasties' approach that satisfies that particular itch.

    • @sethpeterson8261
      @sethpeterson8261 Рік тому

      @@krinkrin5982 Totally fits the setting, I mean Warhammer Quest is 100% dungeon crawling in the WH world and it's still one of the best dungeon crawlers 30 years later.
      Back in the day we got pretty bored with the narrative/politics blah blah adventures and did big dungeon crawlsd instead. I don't remember it being an issue at least with 1st edition and haven't even tried Zwei yet, just read it (but damn does it all look polished and good)
      Good luck!

  • @torikazuki8701
    @torikazuki8701 Рік тому +1

    It's fascinating to me that Back in the day (around 1998-99, when Bioware's 'Baldur's Gate' was released), Computer RPG's benefited TREMENDOUSLY by trying to be as faithful to PnP RPG's as they possibly could.
    However, the REVERSE was demonstrably NOT the case. As the closer to a Videogame D&D Got (Most Visible in 4th Edition), the worse the system became.
    I also have to give WoTC a cookie, as conning players into believing that TableTop RPG's could be treated like SOFTWARE, needing to be 'Updated', was a stroke of marketing and production Genius.
    One of the production advantages is that it is vastly easier to throw out Splatbooks, constantly changing the system & forcing players who have bought the Con, to keep buying the books to stay 'Up to date', instead of spending the time & effort (to say nothing of the need to find good writers) to create a large amount of premade adventures for GM's to use.