Not to mention the levels of powercreep that Gaijin keeps putting into Naval With the introduction of Amagi (ten 16 inch guns with 26 second reload), we are more or less only a step or two away in terms of firepower from the Yamato. Meanwhile many other nations haven't even reached 15 inch guns yet, not to mention American battleships still having 40 seconds reload on 14 inch guns. This happened in the past too, Gaijin added Brooklyn when the next best cruiser was a Konigsberg class, and with Brooklyn still being one of the strongest 6.0 cruisers today, you can only imagine how balanced that was. Hyuga was also added when everyone else was still running around with 12 inch guns, and too represented a big leap that took a long time to balance out.
Its almost like Japanese Naval in general is fucking aweful because all the capital ships are from the 1920s or something, and all they have going for them is "big guns". You could could take one of every single japanese 7.0 and put them against 1 Scharnhost and 1 Kronstadt and theyd lose.....
the issue not really being emphasised enough here, FIVE MINUTE PLUS QUEUE??? when we get a 40 second countdown to a match in WoWs its too long. with all else in life people have to do, when they want to play something to relax the LAST thing any of us want is a huge long wait. life is too short.
Tips for Warthunder Naval: -Make sure to have all server selected. Unlike for tank or plane, you won't get killed because of a difference of miliseconde for reaction time. -For the EC mode it's not on the regular match maker. You have to check in the event tabe that should be on the right of your screen in the hangar. But yeah lets be honest, the current Warthunder Naval has major issues like unbalanced nations, bad map design, brutal grind and many more.
The worst things with War Thunder naval are, its is so embarrasing to get killed by a bot and costal combat plays like a stroke. But the best is however, i own a Fuso, Aoba and Mogami in War Thunder and World of Warships. Both Models are looking so great.
It maybe a dumpster fire. But gosh darn it's my favorite dumpster fire. I rammed a Sharnhorst, torpedoed a Sumner in a Battleship and got stuck under a bridge all in one game Saturday. In between repairs, I had time to fold laundry. What other game fails so eloquently? *Slurps coffee annoyingly with a grin.*
Many of Sealords 'issues' are down to him playing Naval Realistic the slowest form of gameplay in war thunder naval. A much fairer comparison would be to play naval arcade which is the closest in gameplay to WoWs and much faster. The aiming is slightly more automated also, although there is the option to use 'realistic' aiming if you wish. In addition, the queues are generally shorter in arcade.
Ref. the reason of WT Naval being not so popular or populated, I guess the main problem and/or the main competition is coming from within Gaijin itself. Gaijin has another completely separate naval combat game named 'Modern Warships'. This naval combat game came out approx. 3 years ago as a mobile phone game, however lately it's available too on PC. It has kinda similarities to WOWS/WOWS Legends. I haven't played it yet, but I'll give it a try after having watched yesterday's final tournament, similar to WOWS KOTS.
It isnt dead, it never was dead, it never will be dead, and this whole "but but noone plays naval" meme is nearly as pathetic as "Skill issue" We like ships, people need to deal with it if they havent got the patience to enjoy them yet xD
I think the main problem is that gaijin tried to just copy and paste the formula for tanks and planes into ships without realising what the action was in naval warfare. While in tanks and planes gunnery and positioning matters if you want to win, what the hardest thing to do in naval battles irl was managing the ship which wt naval does not recreate making the gameplay stale and slow when irl it was chaotic just not the same chaotic as you see in tanks and planes. If warthunder recreated that internal chaos that ship commanders faced during combat then the gameplay be way more interactive and not a point and click adventure game.
enduring confrontation should be the default game mode for high tier bluewater since players are sparse to begin with. It’ll also sort out submarine and carrier gameplay.
Lower tier games are the main sting in WT Naval and people ussualy play arcade due to its simpiler mechanics, so not that fair of a comparision here...
I don’t know if it is still like this, but when I played WT Naval early in its release, one thing that really sucked about it was that you didn’t get matchmaking with really many ship classes other than what you played. The destroyers were all low rank, cruisers were mid, and battleships weren’t even added yet but they would have been high tier. So you only got DD vs DD or CL vs CL or BB vs BB.
caved in to try naval now im kinda enjoying it still at 4.3 but oddly fun, queue time is still around 2-5miins tho only thing i wish to be added is ground target like bunkers maybe to target or seperate objectives for bigger ships maybe take out ai cargo convoy doubt itll come but eh😊
Honestly, I probably spend more time in naval than ground now... yes, there's complaints (isn't spawning then immediately being friendly-capsized life-affirming?), but there's less... frenzy.. than ground.
Sealord: WT Naval is dead Gaijin: We praised IJN by adding Mutsu and Amagi the only 2 Bb with 41cm guns. US? Here’s the Tennessee with 60s reload. France? Who cares… here’s WW1 BB. Imagine, being a French Bb main and you have to deal with IJN Fleet, seriously, IJN in WT are eating really good. 410mm let alone Amagi. Even Russian Navy is try ti be a float.
Had to install war thunder again after months of not playing... Just to jump into the IJN Navy grind- cuz why not im satisfied with the Scharnhorst- why not grind for the Kongo this time Sips coffee with evil grin
Biggest issue with WT Naval: Maps. Spawning out in the open 90% of all maps immediately having cross map potential and immediate line of sight to your opponent isnt fun, leads to constant spawn - one shots at top tier like that Amagi death you showed. If there was better island cover and map layouts permitting people to get into closer 5km or less gun duels its really rather fun at those distances. But spawning in a giant circle and just blasting at each other for 30 minutes is just not it.
Gaijin claims they don't want long queue times which is hilarious cuz they clearly don't care about it for this mode. So we're stuck with chaos 16v16 air where RWR is constantly going for the duration of the battle cuz that's just how it goes when you put that many people with modern aircraft in one game. Another issue this mode has is this games atrocious progression. It takes an eternity to grind out one tech tree let alone one higher tier vehicle for ANYTHING. Why would anyone want to spend that time in naval with what it currently offers? It's honestly incredible to me I even have Kongo. Frankly probably only because I have Kiyoshimo which I bought several years ago when I discovered WT had naval. It took two months hard grinding Japan Air just to get to the F-16AJ which was the top plane for Japan at the time at the start of last year. No premium time, no premium aircraft, I had to use Kiyoshimo just so I could make the Silver Lions I needed to buy the damn planes after having to spend hours just grinding one out, and as a result of that I also got to Kongo. Given now they've made her Rank VI and added more ships that come in before her so now I have to get all those researched before I can research Rank VI again. I reiterate: The progression is awful, made worse by the rewards for even trying to put the time in also being lackluster.
ill be honest i have no idea how you wait 5 minutes. i at most wait 30 seconds and get an 80% player lobby most of the time. Try enabling other servers than US maybe?
Not to say your worng your not high tier navle is nit the best imo 4.3-5.3 is the most fun early light cruisers and early heavy cruisers at least for the us are my favorite. However your point about needing BBs like the Bismarck,Yamato,Iowa ect they need better armor and other more important thangs as it is in its current state any 1936 or newer BBs would not be fun at all
They are going after the same comparatively small pool of players, who wants to play continuosly developing free-to-play model naval game. There is not enough money to go around for these developments, thats why I think WOWS still has no real competition after all these years.
wrong, horribly wrong, but not in the dead naval part, yes naval is quite dead when there isn’t an event, but if you have no patience to wait for a match might as well not play naval, average naval engagement last around an hour or more, if you can’t have the patience like that you might as well just go play air. Also you clearly have massive skill issue, for the love of god press 6 when there is a fire, you die to the Chapayev cause you didn’t press 6 and the fire spread down to the magazine and blew it up, and press 8 to pump out the water, Scharnhorst flood very easily and when there is an unrepairable breach halt the ship so it stop flooding and you won’t die, and learn to aim properly, your aim is horrible for a top tier player, and you’re playing Scharnhorst which is literally the strongest battleship in the game. Don’t make a ranting video after you got mad cause you have skill issue.
Sea lord, I wanna tell you me experience. I wanted to play the Kronstadt in WoWs, but there is just no way of geting her, so then I saw that she was the top tier in the russian tech-tree, so I downloaded WT and started the grind on the Russians, it was interesting at first but it got boring sooooo fast! the only thing I got to play ware some DD's and then they just added another high tier copy paste Russian dreadnought in the tech tree right before the Kron, despite me not even being there to fell the aditión, that was so demoralizing, seeing the game was getting boring, and the grind was cancer for them to just extend the already long tech-tree, I gave up one game. The last ship that I got was the Leningrad.
What's sad is that IMO they had it right in the first time when they decided to go just PT boats. Those are fast paced and actually fun to play in the context of a realistic engine like WT. Sadly they listened to clueless people that thought they wanted something that just doesn't work and this is the result. A zombie game mode in need of a mercy kill. Also there's the fact that you can probably reach top tier in all nations of WoWs in the time it'd take you to research one nation in WT naval. It's the worst grind by far. And Gaijin acts like if giving away some premium time has the implication of literally going to the devs' home, raiding their refrigerator and taking away their food.
As well you shouldn't it got blown up did you go back to dry dock? Why would a ship underway be able to repair a turret that was damaged by explosion during a battle?
Have you played it? If the main guns were hit and disabled you can repair it by pressing 7. However when the shellroom under the gun gets detonated or if both shellroom and Magazine compartments get submerged you wont be able to use em rendering the gun unusable.
@@Boromas_1 yup I play war thunder naval exclusively now after ditching world of arcadeships doing unrealistic things and people complaining when they try a more realistic but not really game like war thunder.
That sounds like you’re having a problem with UA-cam, the videos look fine on my end. They’re up loaded in 60fps and in 4K. Make sure you have 4K selected when you’re watching the videos
I prefer WT Naval or WoW. but maybe I am biased. I grew up among naval ships and seeing WoW ships just defy physics and all realism totally breaks it for me. only way I would find it fun is if it was a fictional space-ship game.
It’s so fucking bad. I ground the entire French tree and almost had to be committed. Naval is so garbage right now and god damn it they refuse to fix it. Enduring confrontation is the only way to level
Because naval rb is the slowest mode in war thunder. If he wanted to do a more valid comparison he should have been playing arcade which is much faster and aiming is a little more automated.
No problem was worth under naval and worth underground and war thunder errors. The maps are way too small, especially once you get higher and higher in the tears with thunder needs to get off their ass and make new maps. They need to make bigger maps they need to also make a separate game mode to wear. You can choose whether you wanna start off as air or ground in a separate ground realistic battle. they also need to make it to where the matches last longer because it’s harder to earn credits and rank up when you have such a short match and the fact that everybody’s clustered in a small ass is ridiculous realistic wise that’s not how it was and a lot of players from when the game was originally called being a glory tired of listening to the veterans that want the game to be as good as it cut. There’s a lot of things worth needs to get off their ass about and do in order to fix the game. They need to start adding a U-boat early, World War II submarine in naval they have destroyers have depth charges flying pigs submarines from the early part of the second world war they need to make a lot bigger and make it to the matches last longer. The fact that they’re trying to make it into a call of duty style shooter, but with tanks planes and boats is getting fucking ridiculous. That’s why a lot of veteran players are getting irritated with war because every time they do an update it fucks up the game. They need to stop listening to the Gen Xers and start focusing more on keeping the veteran players because, they’re gonna lose a lot of us
Not to mention the levels of powercreep that Gaijin keeps putting into Naval
With the introduction of Amagi (ten 16 inch guns with 26 second reload), we are more or less only a step or two away in terms of firepower from the Yamato. Meanwhile many other nations haven't even reached 15 inch guns yet, not to mention American battleships still having 40 seconds reload on 14 inch guns.
This happened in the past too, Gaijin added Brooklyn when the next best cruiser was a Konigsberg class, and with Brooklyn still being one of the strongest 6.0 cruisers today, you can only imagine how balanced that was. Hyuga was also added when everyone else was still running around with 12 inch guns, and too represented a big leap that took a long time to balance out.
Its almost like Japanese Naval in general is fucking aweful because all the capital ships are from the 1920s or something, and all they have going for them is "big guns". You could could take one of every single japanese 7.0 and put them against 1 Scharnhost and 1 Kronstadt and theyd lose.....
@@BugattiONE666 or they can win in two salvos but yes I agree overall
the issue not really being emphasised enough here, FIVE MINUTE PLUS QUEUE??? when we get a 40 second countdown to a match in WoWs its too long. with all else in life people have to do, when they want to play something to relax the LAST thing any of us want is a huge long wait. life is too short.
Second screen with whatever is my go-to, though for bombers, not ships
You get 40 seconds?
only ground battles and arcade have fast queue times. If you are a sim or RB player better get used to it
I select all the international servers because lag isn't a issue but still you will have a wait time.
Tips for Warthunder Naval:
-Make sure to have all server selected. Unlike for tank or plane, you won't get killed because of a difference of miliseconde for reaction time.
-For the EC mode it's not on the regular match maker. You have to check in the event tabe that should be on the right of your screen in the hangar.
But yeah lets be honest, the current Warthunder Naval has major issues like unbalanced nations, bad map design, brutal grind and many more.
naval enduring confrontation is not in the normal tabs, its in the events section and bots cannot join there so is all players
The worst things with War Thunder naval are, its is so embarrasing to get killed by a bot and costal combat plays like a stroke.
But the best is however, i own a Fuso, Aoba and Mogami in War Thunder and World of Warships. Both Models are looking so great.
Enduring confrontation WAS running it runs EVERY WEEKEND STARTING THURSDAY.
It maybe a dumpster fire. But gosh darn it's my favorite dumpster fire.
I rammed a Sharnhorst, torpedoed a Sumner in a Battleship and got stuck under a bridge all in one game Saturday.
In between repairs, I had time to fold laundry. What other game fails so eloquently?
*Slurps coffee annoyingly with a grin.*
Many of Sealords 'issues' are down to him playing Naval Realistic the slowest form of gameplay in war thunder naval. A much fairer comparison would be to play naval arcade which is the closest in gameplay to WoWs and much faster. The aiming is slightly more automated also, although there is the option to use 'realistic' aiming if you wish. In addition, the queues are generally shorter in arcade.
Ref. the reason of WT Naval being not so popular or populated, I guess the main problem and/or the main competition is coming from within Gaijin itself. Gaijin has another completely separate naval combat game named 'Modern Warships'. This naval combat game came out approx. 3 years ago as a mobile phone game, however lately it's available too on PC. It has kinda similarities to WOWS/WOWS Legends. I haven't played it yet, but I'll give it a try after having watched yesterday's final tournament, similar to WOWS KOTS.
It isnt dead, it never was dead, it never will be dead, and this whole "but but noone plays naval" meme is nearly as pathetic as "Skill issue"
We like ships, people need to deal with it if they havent got the patience to enjoy them yet xD
Also his first death in Scharnhorst was skill issue
@@kennethmasters9329 He didn't extinguish the fires. ☠
@@Boromas_1💀
I think the main problem is that gaijin tried to just copy and paste the formula for tanks and planes into ships without realising what the action was in naval warfare. While in tanks and planes gunnery and positioning matters if you want to win, what the hardest thing to do in naval battles irl was managing the ship which wt naval does not recreate making the gameplay stale and slow when irl it was chaotic just not the same chaotic as you see in tanks and planes. If warthunder recreated that internal chaos that ship commanders faced during combat then the gameplay be way more interactive and not a point and click adventure game.
enduring confrontation should be the default game mode for high tier bluewater since players are sparse to begin with. It’ll also sort out submarine and carrier gameplay.
I do not agree that grinding to the top tier is a goal of the game. It can be, of course, but it doesn't have to.
Lower tier games are the main sting in WT Naval and people ussualy play arcade due to its simpiler mechanics, so not that fair of a comparision here...
Some leaks mentioned that bismarck and warspite may soon be added which has my Interest
I don’t know if it is still like this, but when I played WT Naval early in its release, one thing that really sucked about it was that you didn’t get matchmaking with really many ship classes other than what you played. The destroyers were all low rank, cruisers were mid, and battleships weren’t even added yet but they would have been high tier. So you only got DD vs DD or CL vs CL or BB vs BB.
caved in to try naval now im kinda enjoying it
still at 4.3 but oddly fun, queue time is still around 2-5miins tho
only thing i wish to be added is ground target like bunkers maybe to target or seperate objectives for bigger ships
maybe take out ai cargo convoy
doubt itll come but eh😊
Honestly, I probably spend more time in naval than ground now... yes, there's complaints (isn't spawning then immediately being friendly-capsized life-affirming?), but there's less... frenzy.. than ground.
Sealord: WT Naval is dead
Gaijin: We praised IJN by adding Mutsu and Amagi the only 2 Bb with 41cm guns. US? Here’s the Tennessee with 60s reload. France? Who cares… here’s WW1 BB. Imagine, being a French Bb main and you have to deal with IJN Fleet, seriously, IJN in WT are eating really good. 410mm let alone Amagi. Even Russian Navy is try ti be a float.
Had to install war thunder again after months of not playing... Just to jump into the IJN Navy grind- cuz why not im satisfied with the Scharnhorst- why not grind for the Kongo this time
Sips coffee with evil grin
Gaijin!...nuff said!! 😏
...I just hope your going to give Sea Power a go 😉 (release date is Nov! 🥰...and I can't wait!!)
At least they don't hide a lot of stuff behind a paywall...🤔
Naval EC is a secret game mode. It;s in the event tab
Biggest issue with WT Naval: Maps.
Spawning out in the open 90% of all maps immediately having cross map potential and immediate line of sight to your opponent isnt fun, leads to constant spawn - one shots at top tier like that Amagi death you showed. If there was better island cover and map layouts permitting people to get into closer 5km or less gun duels its really rather fun at those distances. But spawning in a giant circle and just blasting at each other for 30 minutes is just not it.
Gaijin claims they don't want long queue times which is hilarious cuz they clearly don't care about it for this mode. So we're stuck with chaos 16v16 air where RWR is constantly going for the duration of the battle cuz that's just how it goes when you put that many people with modern aircraft in one game. Another issue this mode has is this games atrocious progression. It takes an eternity to grind out one tech tree let alone one higher tier vehicle for ANYTHING. Why would anyone want to spend that time in naval with what it currently offers? It's honestly incredible to me I even have Kongo. Frankly probably only because I have Kiyoshimo which I bought several years ago when I discovered WT had naval. It took two months hard grinding Japan Air just to get to the F-16AJ which was the top plane for Japan at the time at the start of last year. No premium time, no premium aircraft, I had to use Kiyoshimo just so I could make the Silver Lions I needed to buy the damn planes after having to spend hours just grinding one out, and as a result of that I also got to Kongo. Given now they've made her Rank VI and added more ships that come in before her so now I have to get all those researched before I can research Rank VI again. I reiterate: The progression is awful, made worse by the rewards for even trying to put the time in also being lackluster.
ill be honest i have no idea how you wait 5 minutes. i at most wait 30 seconds and get an 80% player lobby most of the time. Try enabling other servers than US maybe?
Naval RB is my favorite game mode. sure it's not perfect and BR 4-5 feels a little better than BR 6-7
Its more fun than I thought. But it still feels weird to play naval in WT.
It's funny how you have more real players in WoW test server games even when they fill t10 randoms with bots.
Not to say your worng your not high tier navle is nit the best imo 4.3-5.3 is the most fun early light cruisers and early heavy cruisers at least for the us are my favorite.
However your point about needing BBs like the Bismarck,Yamato,Iowa ect they need better armor and other more important thangs as it is in its current state any 1936 or newer BBs would not be fun at all
2:52, 6:04 cries in America standard type battleship
Also when I have a credit booster, I use it in naval and go ham.
i know damn well everyone's gonna be flooding to Naval the moment Yamato or Bismarck gets added
They are going after the same comparatively small pool of players, who wants to play continuosly developing free-to-play model naval game. There is not enough money to go around for these developments, thats why I think WOWS still has no real competition after all these years.
I guess sea lord was looking for an insomnia cure 😂
Can I have the thumbnail image? Also can we get a top 5 best looking ships in wows
"world of planks"
Naval needs to fix the aim make it more player friendly in my opinion
It is if you play arcade.
Some if us like those games below tier V. LOL
I only dislike WT Naval because nothing is in historical relevance.
wrong, horribly wrong, but not in the dead naval part, yes naval is quite dead when there isn’t an event, but if you have no patience to wait for a match might as well not play naval, average naval engagement last around an hour or more, if you can’t have the patience like that you might as well just go play air. Also you clearly have massive skill issue, for the love of god press 6 when there is a fire, you die to the Chapayev cause you didn’t press 6 and the fire spread down to the magazine and blew it up, and press 8 to pump out the water, Scharnhorst flood very easily and when there is an unrepairable breach halt the ship so it stop flooding and you won’t die, and learn to aim properly, your aim is horrible for a top tier player, and you’re playing Scharnhorst which is literally the strongest battleship in the game. Don’t make a ranting video after you got mad cause you have skill issue.
Sea lord, I wanna tell you me experience. I wanted to play the Kronstadt in WoWs, but there is just no way of geting her, so then I saw that she was the top tier in the russian tech-tree, so I downloaded WT and started the grind on the Russians, it was interesting at first but it got boring sooooo fast! the only thing I got to play ware some DD's and then they just added another high tier copy paste Russian dreadnought in the tech tree right before the Kron, despite me not even being there to fell the aditión, that was so demoralizing, seeing the game was getting boring, and the grind was cancer for them to just extend the already long tech-tree, I gave up one game. The last ship that I got was the Leningrad.
“Tier 1 to 5 in one game” 😂 prove it
Here: ua-cam.com/video/jvVYU3oe2Qs/v-deo.htmlsi=M3pdVKfGZyNgoIvN
Lol ask and ye shall receive 😂
What's sad is that IMO they had it right in the first time when they decided to go just PT boats. Those are fast paced and actually fun to play in the context of a realistic engine like WT.
Sadly they listened to clueless people that thought they wanted something that just doesn't work and this is the result. A zombie game mode in need of a mercy kill.
Also there's the fact that you can probably reach top tier in all nations of WoWs in the time it'd take you to research one nation in WT naval. It's the worst grind by far. And Gaijin acts like if giving away some premium time has the implication of literally going to the devs' home, raiding their refrigerator and taking away their food.
Main Turret gets disabled. World of Warships: Repairable by pressing one key. War Thunder Naval: Welp, can’t use that turret anymore 🤷
As well you shouldn't it got blown up did you go back to dry dock? Why would a ship underway be able to repair a turret that was damaged by explosion during a battle?
Have you played it? If the main guns were hit and disabled you can repair it by pressing 7. However when the shellroom under the gun gets detonated or if both shellroom and Magazine compartments get submerged you wont be able to use em rendering the gun unusable.
@@Boromas_1 yup I play war thunder naval exclusively now after ditching world of arcadeships doing unrealistic things and people complaining when they try a more realistic but not really game like war thunder.
hello
sealord plz fix your internet the past few videos is like watching a slide show with a shutter camera
Sure it's not your side cause I'm running it at 2160 at 60 fps
That sounds like you’re having a problem with UA-cam, the videos look fine on my end. They’re up loaded in 60fps and in 4K. Make sure you have 4K selected when you’re watching the videos
War thunder will never be better than world of warships because War Thunder Naval isnt fun
I prefer WT Naval or WoW. but maybe I am biased. I grew up among naval ships and seeing WoW ships just defy physics and all realism totally breaks it for me. only way I would find it fun is if it was a fictional space-ship game.
It’s so fucking bad. I ground the entire French tree and almost had to be committed. Naval is so garbage right now and god damn it they refuse to fix it. Enduring confrontation is the only way to level
This looks awful 😂😂😂. War Thunder is a great game, but this looks like an absolute snoozefest
Because naval rb is the slowest mode in war thunder. If he wanted to do a more valid comparison he should have been playing arcade which is much faster and aiming is a little more automated.
WoWs is so much better than WT
Yeah when you have the attention span of a gnat or like arcade games.
No problem was worth under naval and worth underground and war thunder errors. The maps are way too small, especially once you get higher and higher in the tears with thunder needs to get off their ass and make new maps. They need to make bigger maps they need to also make a separate game mode to wear. You can choose whether you wanna start off as air or ground in a separate ground realistic battle. they also need to make it to where the matches last longer because it’s harder to earn credits and rank up when you have such a short match and the fact that everybody’s clustered in a small ass is ridiculous realistic wise that’s not how it was and a lot of players from when the game was originally called being a glory tired of listening to the veterans that want the game to be as good as it cut. There’s a lot of things worth needs to get off their ass about and do in order to fix the game. They need to start adding a U-boat early, World War II submarine in naval they have destroyers have depth charges flying pigs submarines from the early part of the second world war they need to make a lot bigger and make it to the matches last longer. The fact that they’re trying to make it into a call of duty style shooter, but with tanks planes and boats is getting fucking ridiculous. That’s why a lot of veteran players are getting irritated with war because every time they do an update it fucks up the game. They need to stop listening to the Gen Xers and start focusing more on keeping the veteran players because, they’re gonna lose a lot of us