How Many Characters Are Viable in Melee?
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- Опубліковано 29 лют 2020
- Took some time to really think about what "viable" means after getting asked about it multiple times in the comments of my G&W video. The result is this video.
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UPDATE 10/9/22: aMSa won The Big House 10 with solo Yoshi; beating Krudo, Kodorin, Hungrybox, Soonsay, and Mang0 twice.
UPDATE 1/22/23: Jmook won Genesis 9 with solo Sheik; beating SFAT, SFOP, n0ne, Zain, moky, and iBDW.
Got this comment out before I could comment “yoshi hasn’t won a super major, yeah that didn’t age well”
i was there
aMSa fans rise up!
Lessgooo
Was thinking about this video while watching Big House 10
Green yoshi isnt viable, but red yoshi is.
No any yoshi is viable
@jimrdm71 it's a joke because amsa is the only yoshi that's done anything of significance......
Green fox and red marth are the best characters in the game.
Agreed
#Amsa the red yoshi god
the real message hidden in this video was that everyone needs a secondary to fight hungrybox
Proven by evidence
and specifically a fox secondary lol
How strong is HungryBox with Jigglypuff currently in Melee and Ultimate?
Is he still ranked number one player?
@@danielsurvivor1372 ultimate he is struggling but he is starting to have better placements at tournaments
In melee he is still in the top 10 best
@@danielsurvivor1372 He's struggling a bit since his attention is divided between the two games, but he's still definitely a threat
As a brawl player, I thought that “Viable” is defined “counters Meta-Knight”.
lmao true
@@soni-switch5270 lmao we are watching this like 5 months ago and i literally was just gonna say lmao true
Then... nobody is
Isnt that literally what the tier list is based on? How good characters are against MK?
Played brawl once, never again.
Fucking Meta Knight
Kirby can actually become viable if there are Kirby only tournaments so that only Kirby can win them
oof
@Sam Dingdangdongalong
He's so OP, he doesn't even have to be in the game to win against Kirby.
Triple R somehow managed to get Kirby to top 8 at Combo Breaker 2016.
@@PresidentMagikarp dude could make magikarp viable I swear
Hmm floor is made out off floor
The real viable characters were the friends we made along the way
Too bad they got nerfed
gtfo
I mean I wish I could say that but sadly I cant honestly say that.
That’s why everyone says so few are viable, they have no friends
Heartwarming.
Damn is he really not going to call my main bowser not viable like guys have you not seen his getup attack?!1 He can even up-b out of shield wtf bowser broken smh
bowser absolutely broken man smh nintendo should've nerfed him he's too broken and powerful in such a fast game he has no weaknesses im gonna sue sakurai this is harassment against gaming in general
He big I get hit plz nerf
I mean IKR people complain about Marth grab range have you seen Bowser dash-grab?
Falco target practice lol
What about Kirby though? His down B is super OP against casuals who don’t know what they’re doing.
Stock falcon isn't viable, green is though.
Green
Pink Captain Falcon is the most viable
Actually he right. Cuz for whatever reason Green Falcon has a smaller hitbox than regular falcon
It’s not a smaller hitbox but a very slightly bigger stage hitbox which means that the green falcon has a pixel more in regards to grabbing ledge and similar things. Though it is so little that i don’t think it is even noticeable
NIPPLE SPIKE
“Just because one person does well with a character doesn’t make them viable”
Jigglypuff: *glances around nervously*
Right. Talk about the round, pink elephant in the room. A bunch of people declare Puff to be a "cheap, no skill character" despite only one person able to actually put up results with her.
@@ForeverLaxx 2, but only one consistently top 8s
Prince Abu I think it is is a ranked top 50 puff who has some notable wins, even beating plup one time.
@@ForeverLaxx Prince Abu is in the top 50 I believe, a great puff player. And don’t forget Mang0 was a puff main before he switched to fox.
@@lumen9590 that set where Prince Abu beat Plup was so surreal
@@ForeverLaxx At a time, the top 2 players were both puff. However I don't think it's ever gonna happen again.
The type of people to say Melee had only "like 3 viable characters" are the same type of people to say "you can't have half an a press"
MapleMilk So, only 2.
@Edwin Jiménez Aceves because some people don't play melee and only hear about the meta from memes and such and there for belive that their only exists 3 viable characters.
but first we must talk about wave dashing
Yeah, what idiots, we all know there is only one viable character...
Sonic
@Edwin Jiménez Aceves well then i don't know, i don't play melee and just hear it from memes and watch these kind of videos from time to time.
the best character is clearly master hand, that's why he's locked behind a glitch. he's meant to be hidden so that tournaments aren't full of just MH players. cmon guys it's so obvious smh
Master Hand loses the Gigabowser MU dont @ me
Goddamit, didn't see this
Although he can't die his attacks are super easy to dodge so you can get a percent lead and time him out
Do tournaments even ban him in the rules? If not im bout to win next Evo
2👌XX
Three are viable.
Master Hand, Crazy Hand, and Giga Bowser.
lol
I mean *HE’S NOT WRONG*
I mean, hes not wrong
And jiggypuff because that’s the best giga bowser matchup
Giga bowser is bad against jigglypuff
It blows my mind that there are people who played for 15 years and only lost a very common matchup a handful of times, if ever.
If I played a thousand chess games against a kid I'd still drop a few. These guys do it against skilled players in a game where a missed imput lose you a stock
actually its the case in most 1v1 competitive sports and esports
That's what a polarizing match up does.
That's why it's the best smash game.
@@crookycumbles There aren't many polarizing MUs in Melee though. Outside of Puff and Icies MUs, there really isn't a polarizing MU.
That is why they call them gods
this guy is EmpLemon after puberty
Went to the comments just to find a comment that confirmed my theory
I KNEW IT! I KNEW I WASN'T THE ONLY CRAZY ONE
HOLLYSHIT SOOO FCKING TRUE
And no downward spirals
@@Hyperion856 yet
The fact that this video looks so conservative right now is truly indicative of how crazy the rise of the mid tiers has been in recent years. This video was pre Amsa winning three majors with Yoshi, pre emergence of Swift and other high and top level Pikas, and pre Doc and DK Renaissance. This video is a great time capsule of an era right before these massive meta shifts.
Dr. Mario and DK were known to be borderline viable characters from the early 2000s. The problem is that both characters have various shortcomings.
The weirdest thing is that Yoshi is viable. Yoshi is just really hard to play well.
Renaissance
Brah at least learn how to spell Renaissance holy moly
It really blows my mind seeing sheik missing from that initial top 7. She has been always very consistent in top 8's but I never realized that she didn't solo a tournament. Unfortunate.
now… jmook almost did 😌
Thank one guy. Hungrybox
The ironic part to all this is the fact that shiek was once considered the best melee character
All it takes is a sheik main 'dodging' hbox, and i hope it happens
I also forgot Armada
"Ahhh **** its a rat!" never gets old.
hello Joystick gamer
Didn't expect to see you here!
Hello D-Pad Gamer how are you doing
It got old
It's such a stupid video.
*clears throat* "A skilled Roy..." *gets beheaded*
"-can beat any fox"
“COME ON WHY WON’T YOU *DIE* “
ROYS OUR BOIIIII
have you guys seen the video with Roy's instakill cheese on jigglypuff?
@@frogturtle - It should have some name like "unrest" or something.
The clip at 8:50 is so wholesome to me. I love how HBox just looks so proud of Plup for winning instead of being upset that he lost.
Hbox and Plup have been longtime friends, Hbox doubled with him even before Plup got super big.
I don't know their names, so I couldn't figure out at first who of them won bc they were both happy 😁
you made a trash can explode. that rules.
69 likes LOL
@@balticblues8130 nice
And Yoshi's major win is around the corner.
Let's go aMSa!!
Imagine the hype when that happens
We need the mid tier major win!
@@niconexus5914 bowser super major win
@@huntersowards3409 POG
Nico Nexus pikachu is probably mid tier
My man AsumSaus upgraded his content big time, and it’s totally different from the older stuff but still amazing and unique
He stopped making compilations because of copyright strikes but this account has experienced an amazing revival. It's literally lightning striking twice recreating yourself and finding success with a new formula
idk this is the first video he put out in awhile i actually liked, the other ones recently seemed really low effort
It wasn’t because of copyright. It’s because UA-cam demonetized his channel due to UA-cam thinking his videos are “repetitive content.” They’ve done this due to the rise of low quality Reddit vids read by text to speech.
His content is now more broadly appealing and generally suited to the algorithm. Hes doing what he must to grow his channel and still focus it on Melee.
nobody else noticed that his account spells boobs
Coming from street fighter, I see this "x character isnt viable" shit far too much. Fighting game communities are so married to their tier lists that when someone does take a low tier and make it work, they cry about how it's not real. It's a fluke. It's so weird.
iirc thats the same thing people said when hbox got results with puff
This happens with almost every competitive video game regardless of genre
Metas are made to be broken.
T.R.4.Q.
you should see Pokémon players when someone comes up with a weird ass gimmicky moveset that won't work unless it specifically counters a meta Pokémon that you'll run against all the time anyways. They're straight up in denial that someone beat their Ubers with a PU Pokémon running Simple Power Herb Copycat to beat Xerneas with its own Geomancy
9:43
People used to think yoshi was unviable, we didn’t know how bad amsa would destroy mango at big house
True though I still hate playing as yoshi. I started playing peach and have an uncanny ability to use her movement to get out of bad situations. My ATTACK switch her is still lacking. Learning though. Used to be a Link player. He's too slow and leaves himself open way too much.
And SHEIK won super major in 2023, so we have two confirmed viable characters
@@danielsurvivor1372 Sheik was always known to be viable; the exclusion of sheik is literally because the best sheik player used Fox as an anti-Hungrybox tool.
“... Mang0, who’s falco has only lost to a captain falcon once...ever.”
This statement is just too powerful.
Not any more LETS GO WIZYYYYYYYYYYYY
@@danielbojkovski723 Wizzy didn't face Mang0 at sns
@@diamondman3434 he's talking about scl season 2 week 3
you when you released this video: there's 11 viable characters in melee.
a few hours later when the smash circuit is announced with wobbling banned: there's 10 viable characters in melee
a wobbling ban is going to push ice climbers so far you have no idea
@@lounowell4171 so far down the tier list
@@nickq8093 best wavedash in entire game (speed + distance), disjointed hammers, guaranteed grab combos on entire cast even as a single climber, more range than marth's dtilt with blizzard...
they can't really drop lower than the mario bros my guy, and those guys never had wobbling
@@lounowell4171 can't use dashdance properly as sync'd climbers due to nana, have poor range and active frames despite their hammers (fsmash and dash attack both have 2 active frames for example). Their guaranteed combos with sopo on much of the cast past very low %s is a single upair. Blizzard is slow and punishable. They have worse neutrals than the plumbers, no non-grab combo game to speak of and their grab combo game is now heavily dependant on rng on much of the cast. Combine this with the fact the opponent can reduce them to a low tier off a single neutral win and the fact they now have near unwinnable matchups in peach and campy puff and the case for them being below the plumbers is a pretty strong one.
And before you say "but desyncs", desyncs aren't some magical black box of options. They are high risk high reward trapping/checkmate tools. If you nerf the reward (icies grab punish game) then the risk isn't as worth it.
@@nickq8093 you make some good arguments and while I still disagree about ice climbers overall potential, I largely agree with your summary of some of their glaring but often overlooked weaknesses
they can still dash-dance at most ranges/timings
low no. of active frames is presumably to balance their coverage when you still have both climbers - seems fair. from vids i've watched and games i've played, ICs spend as much time with both climbers as they do sopo, can't discount that
while their guaranteed combos on many characters is just a single uair (and the great positioning that sets up), they can theoretically get 0 to death chain-grabs with a single climber on sheik/pikachu/etc...
not sure what "worse neutrals than the plumbers" means tbh, except for like neutral air all of their A attacks are better or effectively the same
you don't have to depend on RNG if you get the grab near the edge, plus they have reasonably reliable 50-50s off a grab centre stage (that end in you getting guaranteed hit with a smash attack, potentially with forced bad DI, or a re-grab)
most characters can't reduce them to a low tier off a single neutral read. it's more like... fox, falcon and peach can in certain consistent locations: still terrible, don't get me wrong, and I'd argue it's a big obstacle to luigi's viability too, but there's no need to exaggerate
desyncs aren't a magical black box, but considering no ICs player uses landing desyncs, or pivot desyncs. considering no ICs player seems to have worked out consistent, reliable traps/setups (like armada has with peach, or hbox has with puff)... it's pretty fair to say there's work to be done
A good Samus is something else. If melee continues for another 10 years I think there will be someone who uses her at her full potential.
Agree, Samus has very good matchups overall, in my local Smash scene there is a dude (who is a close friend) that mains Fox and Samus and always picks Samus as a counterpick for Fox, Falcon and ICS, he always gets good results, Samus just has a too underdeveloped meta
I love samus to death, and I might just be a complainer but I really don't see it happening. There's a reason why the "Samus to Sheik pipeline" meme exists - Sheik wants to play the exact same game as Samus... and she does. But just better in every way, except instead of having one big charge shot you have a bunch of smaller ones. That cancel the big one. (Seriously, why the fuck does one needle beat charge shot?)
Swooper beat IBDW at a recent online tournament and got to winners finals before losing and being sent to losers finals. Swooper had to rematch IBDW and unfortunately lost the runback, but 3rd at a prestigious online tourney spells good things for the future of Swooper and samus
The year is 20xx. The game entirely consists of Samus players who can consistently Super-Duper wavedash. The only legal stage is adventure mode.
@@pyrusvincent1029 Samus can still be viable even if Sheik is just better Samus. Give it time and some tist will pick her up 😅
as a luigi main, my heart sunk when luigi was declared as unviable
I really disagree with that, luigi is unique enough to be viable, in my opinion the viability stops at ganondorf
@@pedrohdalla yeah ive been usin luigi for a bit and id say hes viable
but yeah when it reaches ganondorf thats when it gets wonky
@@pedrohdalla i think ganon has some potential too. Maybe someone will come and show it like axe did with pika
@@tunacavus59 but the thing about ganondorf is that he is just too slow
There nothing that he can do that cap falcon can't
@@pedrohdalla true but i see crazy ganondorfs everyday. Yes he is slow but if u play defensive while trying to hit strong moves he is pretty good.
This was a really good video
Elu Tran finally a normal comment first reply btw
Aren’t you the guy who uploaded the undertaker soundtrack
@@theredspirit2090 not funny
elu tran undertale
Aren’t you the guy who uploaded the bug fables videos
Remember that Jiggs was once seen as unviable. So really who knows who can rise up the ranks
@Random Person just wait until I fuck around and win Genesis with solo DK
same thing happend w yoshi
The meta won't develop any more than it has already. It's been 20 years. If you guys still think that some Mario main will rise up from nowhere and take a set from a top ten player you're smoking more than 2 joints.
@@hugovazquez7533 do it with bowser if you dare, pussy
@@Death_by_Inches nah
The concept of potential applied to NES Tetris. When Hypertapping was first becoming known, it had low potential due to most top players being unable to perform the technique. It took a new generation of players to prove Hypertapping is viable. The same is happening with rolling, although it's mostly about discovering a universal rolling position right now
wow
Update: People are beginning to beat tetris. Crazy how it evolved in just a few years.
Beats Zain, Mango, Wizzrobe and Leffen
"He only won because he got a really good bracket"
What.
"Good Bracket"
*Goes again 4 of the best fucking players the world has ever known, including Mango and fucking Leffen*
"Fucking autistic player, garbage character, unplayable, lucky reeeEE"
@@vulpinequeen9269 if you beat all of them like what the fuck how that you lucky
@@oomar4597 Skill > Luck
But Pikachu has good matchups against fox, falco, Marth and Falcon, while pikachu gets destroyed by Shiek and Jigglypuff. Having a good bracket in this case means Axe didn’t have to face his worst matchups in Shiek and Jigglypuff. It doesn’t mean Mango, Zain, Wizzrobe and Leffen aren’t god tier players.
I think Pikachu is viable, don’t get me wrong. But you’ve completely missed the point of the good bracket argument.
@@keagankrossman We understand the point of the "Good Bracket" argument. But saying Pikachu isn't viable because of their good bracket is entirely ridiculous. If a character has the ability to win a tournament, and has demonstrated this, then by all accounts they should be considered viable. We're poking fun at the fact people completely disregard someone's skill because of a "Lucky Bracket".
After watching Rishi's video on the potential of DK, I'm rooting for him to become the 12th viable character
yoo you play melee? netplay me right now
It will never happen until he actually decides to drop Marth and focus on DK instead.
DK has won 2 majors, but those were in 07
His down-B is basically 4 Falco shines
@@trials_of_death3680 huh?? Which "majors"?
There’s clearly only one viable character. I trust our Lord and savior Hax$
Pre ordering a b0xx right now
The year is 20XX...
@Berginite - Patience, young one... Your time will come.
There just needs to be an aMSa for other "unviable" characters
Yeah, would be amazing to see someone like that
aMSa but for bowser
@@succmeister7808 20KK (King Koopa)
I find myself keep coming back to this video, it’s very well done and it’s hard to argue with the logic that you’ve put forth. Plus, I particularly love the statement at 5:54. It applies to any PvP game and character really, just fill in “Pikachu” and “Axe” with different characters and players.
"There are eleven viable characters"
(Fox,Falco,Marth,Jigglypuff,Peach,
Captain falcon, Pikachu, Sheik,
Ice climbers,Samus and Yoshi)
*cries in Luigi*
TheMaster Gon Im here with you bud.
Luigi is totally viable just needs a level of perfect play that isn't realistic.
Cries in mr game and watch
Luigi is really solid but still needs a super dedicated specialist to get the big boy results and that has proven to be too hard.
Cries in Doctor Mario
Top 3 Characters:
Bowser, with his devastating shffl up air combos and his unparallel zoning with neutral b.
Kirby, with his top tier recovery and terrifying kill confirm with side b out of his up throw.
And Pichu, with his unmatched shield pressure and vertical combo tools that leads to its terrific down b.
Obviosly :) .
You’re right. Damn right.
Broken characters please nerf
Ok when you and other people do this kind of joke could you not include the "obvious" part it just makes it more cringey and more unfunny then it already was
GoldenChainy You’re right. Damn right.
@@MoltenSkull imo the misspelled obviously adds to the joke
I've always thought that "viability" is a dangerous conversation to have. Yes, there will always be high tier characters that will win more tournaments than others, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for low tiers to win. However, when people say that a character is unviable, tryhards will avoid the characters altogether. Characters that already had underdeveloped meta will never become what they could be because someone said it wasn't worth the effort.
Exactly. Yoshi wouldn’t be considered viable if it wasn’t for Amsa’s intense experimenting with the character.
In the same way as tier lists shouldn't be more than guidelines. Most of the time they are defined by how the top players perform with a character, not unlike the first definition for a viable character. But that can always change when someone comes along who plays something else. In fact, it might even make them more successful, because at the top everyone tends to practice against what the other top players use, so a different character can throw off those learned strategies.
unfortunately, melee is balanced poorly for certain characters and experimenting with them won't help them get results. the only exceptions to this, imo, are samus, luigi, yoshi, and ganon, but its reasonable why people don't want to play these characters. you need to work a lot harder to get the same results as the high tiers. it also doesn't help that these 4 all have weird gimmicks that you need to know about.
@@ass-wd4hp I feel like Doc and Icies also belong on that list. To me, Doc feels underdeveloped due to lack of representation and I feel like there might still be some things that the Icies can do that we don't know about because their punish game for the longest time revolved around wobbling.
@@HappyBeezerStudios This is why I prefer competitive pokemon's tier system, which are purely based on usage statistics alone, (OU - Overused, UU - Underused, RU - Rarelyused, etc.) because unlike a tier list, which might discourage newer players from trying out new pokemon, this system allows greater potential of underated pokemon to rise up in the ranks since usage alone is not the be-all-end-all in viability. This also allows for a space for pokemon who might be outclassed be viable in a tier in without the other pokemon that outclass other pokemon.
Note: RU and UU pokemon can fight in OU but not vice versa. This logic applies to all tiers.
6:22 Search history: "define pandemic"
Video posted March 1, 2020. I love this little detail.
Kirby is viable. Trust me, use nuetral b. Then eat them, then turn off the gamecube because you took all stocks.
what
Kirby DOES kill his foes when he swallows them...
@@StevePiPi no he takes them to his pocket dimension
@@youraveragerobloxkid that was only in squeak squad (and the anime) but whatever
I remember back when you were just highlights. I stop watching for a couple months and now you make some of the most interesting vids on the subject. Good job.
I love how a lot of the same people that went from BRAWL to Smash 4 and Ultimate are talking about viable characters LOL.
imagine being poggers enough to not cover up your search history
Define lynching and simp
how to make french toast
6:00
Zain when he sees that he has to face Axe in loser's.
Axe is starting to feel the same way Mango felt 8 years ago.
The year is 20UV(unviable) everyone plays unviable characters in a super mega ultimate TAS level of skilled potential(and all viable characters are banned).
that would make the characters viable, making melee unplayable. bad joke 10/10
The game would be softlocked
I kinda wanna see a low tier bracket event now.
Can only play the bottom half of the tier list.
@@jakezepeda1267 Hungrybox secondaries Ness so he would probably win that event
so really only kirbo and pichu
0:00
"Hey, get out of the shot"
"Whoops, my bad"
This was a good look on the "viability" discussion. I follow the same idea that you mentioned towards the end that some people take "every character is viable, in the end it comes to giving them the chance and running with them." But obviously, it's not always going to be that way with EVERY character (especially in Melee. Looking at Mr.G&W and Kirby) but in later games, no character is inherently "not viable" they're just not looked into enough. I've seen clips of characters I rarely fight do some fucked up shit that makes me fear them, but it really does come down to "do you have the patience and will power to run with this character?"
1:04
Well, G and W got shafted right away
"only Axe can win with pikachu"
That kinda sounds like Hbox's Jigglypuff but okay
Cries in Mango's puff
Where are the other high level Pikachus
To be honest tho, 2saint has won big tournies and was only getting better till he took a break. Theres also dudes like Jerry, 42nd, Prince Abu goin crazy recently. Puff has a lot more strong representation than Pikachu. Although, i think Pikachu is viable, they just need to get better at the character.
I mean, what about Mang0
@@EvZaeYGO cause he totally STILL plays that character right?
Jmook took care of that Sheik supermajor problem
Who came back after Yoshi has won a major
We all did. Yoshi is viable.
Birch
i love how your text wiggles, it really adds a lot to the video watching experience
SilentSong how does he even do it lol
Young link is the most underrated character in the game.
at least young link gets attention from top players like axe and armada. Donkey Kong is the true underrated potential mid-tier
@@theonlybass8947 true
I'd also say Link too. The tech practice pays off so much, especially with hookshot & bombs
More like underage
@@groundedgameplayx With Aklo now, your statement aged like fine wine
I think a semi-fair alternative definition of viable would be "Can take more than 50% of the player's high-level matches and win, using alts to cover bad player and/or character matchups."
Sheik is sort of the perfect example. Nobody really plays solo sheik at the top level, but a shitload of people main sheik and keep another character or two in their pocket. I think the same could be said for if a duck or plup level samus player mained her but broke out a different character for certain matchups, as well as all the characters you listed in between.
I love how when I first started playing melee I was completely unaware of the competitive scene and tier lists, so it was only later that I found out I literally played all the characters people considered bad (Bowser, Pichu, Kirby, characters like that) just because I liked them. Hell, I actually preferred Roy to Marth
Knowing about the competitive scene and all that now though, I'd still play those characters over the top tiers. It's not like I play Melee competitively anyways
2:33 This. Oh! Yellow. S--t! Rat. A rat!?!?
This is not only your best video, but one of the best smash-related videos I’ve ever seen.
Your compilations were always top tier, but even still you’ve come a really long way, man.
This is already changing with characters like DK, Luigi, Captain Falcon and Even Roy being explored, experimented, and taking results with the bast of the best. Although it’s more the exception than the rule, the same can be applied to characters like yoshi and puff
Love how optimistic he ends the video, with the piano music transitioning into the outro. I have never played melee, but I am happy it holds up, even with the newer smash bros games.
I really hope a god luigi players comes out of nowhere and destroys majors.
I'm still convinced after all these years that luigi have super strong tools and good enough frame data to be able to win.
A GOD NEED TO AWAKEN.
I was just thinking that, I think Luigi is definitely Viable
Luigi's recovery is soooooooooo bad tho.
@@Thierce down B max speed mashing + side B or up B, doesn't sound THAT bad to me distance wise.
I'm pretty sure down B is kinda hard to punish with edgeguards and such too ;u
Also, well, others "top tiers" characters recovery aren't that good they are still top tier :u
@@Ukkosade You can only use down-b to regain height once off-stage tho. You need to use it again on stage for it to be able to make you gain height. side-b is also extremely laggy, which makes it very easy to punish off stage, and Luigi's horizontal drift is so bad that if you hit him while he's off-stage once, well he's most likely dead unless he gets a misfire. I'd also argue that none of the top tiers have straight up bad recoveries, since they can all be mixed-up somewhat. However, once luigi is sent far enough off stage, he has no choice but to side-b, which leads him wide open to hits. His up-b is also incredibly linear, which makes it easy to jsut hold ledge and refresh invincibility. The down-b can be used to mix-up his recovery by delaying when he up-bs, but the move is also very telegraphed and laggy so once again all you have to do is hold ledge and properly refresh invincibility.
@@Thierce poor luigi :(
Well imo falco recovery isn't that great, sheik hasn't huge range, peach has huge flaws, fox has huge openings in the starting time ... luigi's recovery might have flaws but so are theirs.
But his tools, very fast mobility with soap-coated boots (XD), very powerful moves and tools ... I'm pretty sure he could achive great things if there was a true luigi god to appear tbh
Love the video and I think the channel has found a really vital voice in this scene.
To add to the conversation: for the last 3 years, I've believe very strongly that Luigi has the potential to be one of the 5 best characters in the game. If a player was able to put everything together: master and integrate the aerial interrupt and the options out of wavestep-shieldstop, Eddy Mexico's tech chasing, Jah Ridin's chain grabs, Plup's recovery. That could be a #1 player. The Falco matchup would still be very bad, but with those techniques mastered and integrated, Falco could be Luigi's only losing matchup.
2:32 - i dont know where most of these even come from, or Why theyre so funny to me, but the random sound clips that you throw into these videos are expertly placed...
I only just now realized you put the best song from the yuyushiki anime in this video now that I've watched that anime, damn I love that song and the way it dances around so melodically free
Your videos are some of my favorites. Subtle and well executed gags (such as the 10/10 intro), top quality editing, and highly informative on mostly meaningless topics (the best topics). Thank you.
Wizzy’s pop-off at 4:01 will forever be my favorite pop off
I’m so glad melee has a creator like AsumSaus. Ty for all you do. ❤
I've watched this video so many times now just because I love the thumbnail and then get hooked on the actual contents of the video
"we shouldn't use results to determine viability"
Uses results to determine viability.
Lol okay good I was wondering why no one was pointing this out
@@ChillavaKirby "consistent top 8s is clearly a sign of viability, characters' tools don't change based on the player"
Doesn't even list doc as viable because shroomed "hasn't played him in years"
@@NicholasSunderland The thing about Doc is, since Shroomed dropped him. No other Doc has ever made a top 8 at a super major, more than one top 10 win and top 30. Also, Shroomed dropped Doc 6 years ago now. The meta has developed since then, so it might be even worse than back then. It might be possible, he was shown yellow after all. But AsumSaus decided to not include him. Doc is the hardest character to decide on if he is viable, but by current results being closer to G&W than Yoshi. I'd say he is unviable.
@@vublia2670 he is pretty much unviable for victory as a main. As a secondary i can see it.
When did he say that?
Thank you so much for making this. I’ve argued the exact same thing as you for over 5 years now, and this is a great way to simply show it to others.
I love how every clip is just a super close set in all the "unwinnable" matchups
I like the fact you used a few songs from the Paper Mario Color Splash OST, they matched very well with the arguing.
Cool video man, keep it up! 👌
Honestly, for mid level, about half the cast, but low tier upsets still happen if you’re good enough
Puppet inputs suck, even in normal fighting games lol
@Puppet ummmmmm nope
N air
@@user-te8wm8gd1k nair is a nair, his up smash and lazers though....those make me want to go into a time machine back to late 2001 and blast sakurai with enough radation to watch him fucking melt before my god damn eyes
King Krispy yeah, obviously
Bowser, pichu, and Mewtwo. All others suck
PICHU TOP TIER BABYYYY
what about Roy
@@LucasSilva-em7fk that's my main
Mario, Kirby, Bowser, Pichu, Link and Zelda are SSS+ tiers
mewtwo is so much better than those two
I haven't been to a tournament in years but these videos are always a treat. Thanks!
this thumbnail is just so sick i rewatch the video sometimes because nervous pikachu is that cute
AsumSaus you are KILLING it recently man. I love the overhaul of the type of content on this channel, and your recent videos have been outstanding. Keep it up!
This is like the "how many genders are there" but for fighting games. Everytime it's mentioned, everyone gets mad.
Sexually identifying as a Fox main to own to the libs
@@user-vf4oh1pd9t im sexually identified as a pink puffball that eats everything
i sexually identify as a boy who summons hell onto others
There are only TWO viable characters!! FOX and FALCO
}:(((((
@@impadimprixie marth? pffft who's that weeaboo character am i right? and puff? oh she's just another lame ass pokémon. clearly, only fox and falco are viable. i fail to see how other people see this smh smh smh
ASMA comes out of no where
Since "dodging" bad matchups increases your chance of winning the tournament, it's likely that a high percentage of major tournament winners were lucky with such dodges, since they had a higher chance of winning than their competitors who weren't lucky that time. That's just statistics, and it doesn't just benefit lower tier characters, it happens to everyone. Being viable doesn't mean the character consistently wins, it just means they have a realistic chance of winning, and as I explained, winning often takes some luck regardless of your character (as well as skill of course, which, guess what, also isn't unique to lower tiers). In the end, discussion about viability as a dichotomy isn't particularly useful, obviously it is a gradient, which is what tierlists try to represent, as said in the video, they have more than just two tiers.
Lot of words to just state the obvious.
I liked it king
But was armada lucky that he won evo with peach
7:11 I NEVER KNEW SHE WINKED DURING THAT
While I occasionally disagreed with some of the finer details, this was still a great video, and it will hopefully educate people as to why they’re wrong about melee having few viable characters. Nearly half the cast is actually a loooot. Ganon sucks though LOL.
It’s nice to see the direction your channel has shifted and I’m glad you’re creating content for the game! Keep it up!
I think the point of Ganon was to demonstrate a character that an extreme optimist, given his definition of viable, would consider viable.
@@yamezjournal3916 Like other guy in this comment section said: "There simplely isn't anything that Ganon can do that Falcon can't"
@@yamezjournal3916 And its kinda funny, considering that melee is the only game in the smash franchise where the great King of evil isnt garbage
@@TDG386 Ganon operates a lot differently from Falcon actually. He's more of a zoner since his moves have larger hitboxes. His uair (the tipman) has a hitbox on the end of it that spikes AND it will hit sweetspots to the ledge. Ganon has a chaingrab on a bunch of characters. His jab is frame 3 and does 7%...it's one of the best in the game. Obviously Falcon is the better character but if you think all Ganon is is just a worse version you don't really know anything about the character.
Gannon's in about the same situation in Ultimate as he is in Melee. It's just that there are a lot more matchups for him to deal with.
I am here from 2023 to say that a solo Shiek has won a supermajor. Let's go JMook!
Dude your videos are top tier in quality, laughing my ass off at the audio clips and jokes even after rewatching
One day my Doc is gonna make waves, y-you'll see~!! ;_;
I deadass believe in you Daniel Brian
Someone as to do it! Because i still need some training.
Whenever I see a “melee has 2 viable characters” post I cringe
yh, it's 2+2, not 2
Cool, but the actual viable roster size is still small.
Oliver Xu what do you mean small and uninteresting, lol. Purely according to this video, nearly half of the cast is viable, each character having a unique and deep play style that makes them stand out from the other characters
Keaton Harris while it is his opinion, I’m saying it’s hard to argue that 3 or 4 characters are viable based on their results and this video
metroidman
As someone who knows nothing about competitive melee, melee’s viable character list is way more interesting. Every character is super unique, in Ultimate everyone just downsmash spotdodge downsmashes.
My wife left me for a 2007 Ford Focus
🚗❤💃
I've never played any of the games
But i find the whole scheme of things and the engine fascinating as told through your videos
Thank you for your contributions
I think Luigi certainly has the tools to win, it's just that he hasn't had an amazing player yet. People used to think Yoshi was shit before aMSa became a thing. He is the only player to get to that high a level with Yoshi. I think there COULD be a Luigi player that could do the same. Luigi has great ground moves with great hitboxes and strength, same for his airials, + epic ground movement obviously. His moves give him great combo potential and great kill moves, and he has pretty good neutral options aswell due to his mobility and his surprisingly large hitboxes. His weakness is that he has a bad recovery due to his shitty air mobility (His airmobility fucks his recovery, but he actually has good moves for getting down when he is above his opponent.see: "imagine getting a free combo for losing neutral"). I concede that his recovery is bad (captain falcon has a shitty recovery too tho). But the thing is, his recovery doesn't stop him from winning. Characters that can't kill for example are unviable because it literally stops them from taking stocks. This may sound reductive but idk how to phrase it: If he just doesn't get off stage he can take stocks well. His weakness makes it ofc a lot harder for him, but not impossible. Also, his recovery is bad, but not miserable. He has the POTENTIAL to win big. I think he's viable. Not good, but viable. And he is definitely better than doc.
The phrase “There's only 3 viable characters ” is such a weak mindset. You are ok with Fox and Falco winning all the time, losing, imperfection of a craft. When you stop getting angry after losing to these shmucks, you’ve lost twice. There’s always something to learn, and always room for improvement, never settle.
Lmao
I still don’t understand why ninja made this quote, did he lose to a noob on stream or something?
I’m a marth main and I’ve seen this video roughly 100 times I’d say you can draw the line right after Luigi but that’s debatable at least currently Luigi and Doc are really underrated though I think with a top player and dedication they could be viable but maybe I’m just an optimist who wants to belive
8:40 we can now say that solo sheik won a major
9:21 Yuyushiki ost?! How do I super like
By that metric it's actually pretty good since lots of fighting games only have a handful of "viable" characters, or simply have characters that stand head and shoulders above the rest (Tekken's Mishima tier), but it's worth noting that some of these things have changed as the metagame evolved. For example, when I got out of Melee mid-2000s, Peach was considered irrelevant and only used to counter Marth, Jigglypuff didn't even enter into the conversation, and s-tier was Sheik-Falco-Fox-Marth in that order. I assume that for a lot of people outside the community, that's probably the take they still have on it, since they stopped following along when they stopped playing Melee.
Given the last year or so I would love to see a revisit to this topic
Just a reminder that Wobbles did place 2nd with Ice Climbers at Evo 2013 (he was on W side and got reset by mango who he had previously beaten in W quarters). Of course lots has changed since then, but I still think all it would take is for an Axe-like icies main to win a major, even without wobbling.
7:40 damn never heard of this word "demonstrable" but will definitely be using it more often now hahaha. Thanks
Great vid dude, I’d recommend looking into franz, he’s a doc main from SoCal that’s been on the rise recently. He got top 8 at a supermajor and has been on the rise in general for the last year or so. He’s like 80 on the MPGR I think.
Man, the other day I was watching one of those yeet compilations and I was thinking like this is not even as hype as the most casual top meelee player's stream. Top level meelee is still the most interesting and hype smash game of em all
This is my comfort video on youtube, I have watched it like 12 times and know all the jokes ahead of time