Toyota EVAP Diagnostics Part 1: Can't Fill Tank
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- Опубліковано 27 лип 2024
- Toyota EVAP systems can be a bit confusing to troubleshoot and repair properly.
The owner of this 2001 Toyota Camry had a hard time filling her tank, and had a Check Engine light, with EVAP codes stored in the computer.
Another shop quoted her a brand new charcoal canister to the tune of $700. Probably the most common item on "IdentiFix"!
But before jumping to conclusions, let's properly diagnose the system and who knows...maybe save the customer some money and learn a thing or two in the process :)
Let's go! And enjoy!
Ivan
FREE TSBs and Wiring Diagrams: www.bbbind.com/free-tsb - Авто та транспорт
Ivan, you are proof that you are living proof that few honest tech's and auto mechanics still exist, and are surviving and can sleep well at night, very impressive and well done, I myself in auto for 45 + years and still counting on stars like you and others on YT
thanks Ivan high 🖐
Thank you for the positivity, Joseph! It's a lot more fun to restore old useable parts than install aftermarket garbage :)
I was battling the same issue except I had no engine light. I was doing the same exact tests as you by putting air through fuel filler to look for restrictions and I couldn’t find any! I would have never thought to double check the vent valve because it was allowing air through it. I removed it and blew through it hard and heard a pop and problem solved! This video deserves a million likes! Thank you!!
In the late 90s I worked for Isuzu. We had rash of p440 codes in the late spring with Rodeos from '97 up. the problem turned out to be spider nests clogging the evap vent! Dozens of them. Pull a po440, and pull the little box at the end of the evap hose near the rear of the vehicle, and blow the spider nest across the shop! An easy warrantee fix that paid 1 hour flat rate. Not bad for 10 minutes of work. Love your channel!
Got instantly excited because I remembered the TSB for these and the videos i watched in the past, Wells Garage has a video on a 1999. In their video the VSV on the Canister didn't work. Can't wait for part 2
Wells Smells =p ( thinking of the sewer pipe backup they had in of the last few videos lol)
What can I say as an engineer? Simply: * * * * * talent at work. If all repair techs would be like you, there would not be a single unhappy customer in the word! Analyze, understand, repair and only change parts which really are beyond repair. I have small fleet of 3 cars 1965 and 2000 Volvo, one Citroen, one Harley and one Peugeot scooter.
I can fit my discarded parts within 6 years in a one trash bag. If you have failing relay, give it 500 grid sandpaper slip and it will work again for 20 years. People blab all the time about environment but everybody are actually advocating to buy more new stuff. Not to keep the stuff you have running. You do it and it is a hat off from me.
I can tell that you are going to enjoy Part 2 very much, Janne :)
ivan, with your knowledge and honesty, i'm amazed your business isn't 100 times bigger!
"I blew on it and some junk came out..." That's a PHAD fix! Well done Ivan. Looking forward to part two and the code fix. Thanks!
I can only imagine what a shop would be if only you and EricO worked together in one shop. The business would rock this world. Great video mate.
I know a guy that bought a new dodge truck maybe 5 years ago and couldn't fill tank , (maybe to like 1/2- 3/4 full). Turned out to be bolts missing on tank straps letting tank hang down. True story.
Another nice one Ivan!
haha so the tank was being held up by the fill hose...classic!
They had a recall for many of them for that very thing! They didn’t put a weep hole in where the strap inserted into the frame so moisture would get trapped and rust away the strap until broke off due to the weight on it constantly.
I hate working on evap systems! Great work Ivan looking forward to part 2
Nice job man! Love the no-part fixes. Now to see why the money light is on ... :)
Great job Ivan! Looking forward to part 2!
Great diagnosis , look forward to the next video . Thanks for all your hard work .
Ivan,
Great video! Im looking forward to part 2.
Thank you
God bless
Paul
EVAP diagnostics can take some time to figure out and very confusing to sometimes u can get lucky like ivan did in this video and if they were all that easy it would be a great thing great work ivan.
Part 2 diagnostics will bee a bit more in-depth :)
Very nice thought process. I need to do that, haha. I'm all over the place, lol. A friend of mine had a P0440 code. I ran air into the lines. Found that it was the purge valve was not working. Replaced it, but still setting codes!!!
I love your and Eric's videos Ivan. I'm glad your parents came over here with you :-) :-) :-) :-) Waiting on part 2 and many other videos from you especially 2005 Outback videos :-) Dobro Utra.
That's awesome, nice job with the fix and explanation. Thanks
Nice job. Ivan. Part 2 awaits
thanks for posting a great video, I like your optimistic attitud, keep up the good work.
Great troubleshooting ivan. Emission systems are complicated to me. Trying to fiqure out the subaru system to get rid of the po448 on the 2006 subie sti . Im good till ct. Emissions comes up in apr 2019. Happy thanksgiving to you and your family
P0448 looks like a circuit code for the vent solenoid. I would start there :)
I've got the 1mz-fe V6 with a P0440 code. I've replaced every switching valve and the purge solenoid...all located around the fuel rail. New vacuum lines too. The code comes back after a few days. The only valve remaining is the one on the canister itself. No problems filling the tank but there were about a year ago...months before any codes showed up. That problem went away on its own after I followed someone's advice not to let the gas level go below 1/4. There were also a few times when I could hear a bubbling sound when I took the gas cap off. Haven't heard it since.
Biggest problem with EVAP canisters is overfilling the tank. Don't "milk" the nozzle when filling, the gasoline goes into the vent line into the charcoal canister and eats it up. Fill until it clicks off and that's it.
Would that damage the charcoal canister by any chance?
WOW Ivan nice fix,bring Pt.2
Thanks for your video, learn a lot from you.
You are definitely my Hero an amazing mechanic thank you for a very valuable information
Juan fron Vegas
Ivan you and your wife have a Happy Thankgiving. Will pull up the TSB and try to follow your thought process. Keep us informed. If it works then a good cheap fix.thanks for sharing your time and knowledge. 👍👍
Definitely print it out. We're dissecting the function and operation in detail in Part 2 :)
Great video & explanation.
Good video ivan,happy thanksgiving to you and your wife. Sam
Thanks Sam. Same to you my friend! Don't forget the soup ;)
Good info Ivan ,thanks!
You are a genuis. Excellent video! I have the same problems.
For those looking for a schematic to follow along from the beginning, take a screen shot at 17:11. These EVAP problems always seem confusing!
We'll start with the schematics and description for Part 2 :)
I wonder if debris is coming from the charcoal canister. Could also be from the atmosphere end of the hose as well. Usually canister filter breaks sticking the purge valve open. Good job Ivan!
Purge line looked clean as a whistle so I'm going to blame spider webs on this one lol
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Agree. The hose that vents to atmosphere needs some type of filter screen on the end of it. I've heard of techs blowing out dirt, debris, spider eggs, etc.
I saw that on a Dodge Ram. Problem was the truck shuddered at about 45mph. I thought it was a torque converter lock up issue. But apparently the PCM also commands the purge valve to open at ~45mph. The canister filter screen had disintegrated and the purge line was sucking charcoal into the purge valve.
Yay ! You fixed my toyota. Thank you so much.
I lucked out, I started off my career as a Toyota tech so these are the systems I cut my teeth on. I just assumed all evap systems were complicated as hell. Boy was I wrong. The plus side is now evap problems on all other makes of cars are a cake walk for me.
Haha yup once you spend a few hours understanding these complicated ones, the other ones seem trivial!
Had the same fault with my ol' celica! Luckily the purge valve and canister are under the bonnet, so no rust issues. Just cleaned the lines and valve with the airline and 4 years on...no issues.
thank u so much , after long times
Nice work, that shop would have replaced the canister n it would come back for the same problem.
I'd guess on the valve and cannister being sold together as one unit. no I wont look it up to see for sure =p
Its a good job she brought it to you Ivan, i worked in a garage 10 years ago, we were a pretty honest one but there are some that arn't, so what was the vacuum hose at the top of the valve for for?
Just a small vent line to atmosphere for the top chamber of the diaphragm.
Ivan reply much appreciated
My pleasure, Miriam!
You still the man and Eric O
We permatexed a piece of screen over the access of the vent just like HUBBABUBBA DOOPYDOOP suggested, and it worked great!
By far the most complicated and expensive EVAP system ive ever worked on. Early years the canister would detonate and fill system with charcoal. The later years especially the RAV4s the leak detection pump would start squealing b4 it gave up the ghost. Anytime someone would bring a Toyota to me telling me it squeals after its been sitting for a few hours i knew it needed the infamous and expensive EVAP canister. Here if the MIL is lit you dont get to renew your registration, if you live in an inspection county. Ive had people tell me that this reoccurring problem and the constant oil burning was enough to ditch the brand altogether.
I have a 2000 Avalon with codes PO 441 and PO 446. A mechanic done a smoke test and put an aftermarket canister and valve on it. He cut some hoses on the canister to create a leak and returned car to me. I found the cuts after I replaced the canister with a Toyota canister which comes with a valve. I put the solenoid on the air box, new gas cap, new valve on fuel rail but there are 4 up there. All the vacuum lines look good. I replaced a few that I wasn’t sure about. When you fill up the car with gas, it turns over a lot and then cranks with the engine running rough. I have to rev the engine up awhile to clear it out and than it runs fine until it gets down to about a 1/4 tank and my wife said it’s a little hard to crank sometimes. I tried filling the tank with the engine running but it shuts the nozzle off and want fill the tank. I don’t have and gas leak or smell. What do you think it could be? I’m very frustrated. I live in north Alabama. Where is your shop? Is it to far for me to drive to you?
I believe since you relate out loud your thought processes so well, others can use the same technique in troubleshooting almost anything they are working on. Kinda like a mental flow chart, for lack of better words, test move on...test move on... ID problem, double check findings, repair and or replace.
Wonder what ever happened to those gas station filler nozzles that would vacuum off vapors while filling car, never see them anymore.
Thanks, Charles! I've seen those vacuum recovery pump nozzles in California. Was a real pain to fill a motorcycle tank with those! Now that all modern cars have an on-board vapor recovery system (like this Toyota), there are no more vapors escaping the filler neck during refueling, so no more need for the vacuum nozzles :)
I cannot recall the last nozzle I seen without vapor recovery, other than kerosene and diesel pumps.
the majority if not all have vapor recovery nozzle/hose combo's, it's a hose inside of hose(coaxial) setup with the vapor recovery holes higher up on the the outer part of the nozzle. they just don't have silly fill neck cupping boots with bellows around here and if you listen you can hear them all "sucking" and if the fuel burps back the filler neck you'll hear it gurgle as it tries to suck your gasoline up! which also causes the nozzle to kick off (hopefully) I think the vacuum is fixed flow rate regardless of the fuel flow rate, but don't quote me there, I don't repair pumps!
So do the nozzle look any different, What difference can I see looking at it, they look "normal" to me. If I look into the spout will I see anything. Im going to have to pay more attention I guess, better put, some attention.
Interesting...will have to look at the filler hose next time I gas up :)
they look about the same, but they've likely been eliminating them lots of places. have a look around one of manufactures site.
www.opwglobal.com/products/us/retail-fueling-products/above-ground-products/stage-ii-vapor-recovery-equipment
As if your job wasn’t hard enough you have so much rust to deal with! Whats your take on the Krown film type undercoating products? And what do you use? Thxs!
I have a Camry with a hard to fill tank too. Going to try your trick to blow out the valve (20:30) but the screw holding it on the vapor canistor rusted out. So either I spend $150 to get a new charcoal canister or wait a little longer to fill up with gas.
I now see that their is a part two so I'll wait to comment on that one...
Lots good infor thanks.
what would be a good affordable version of that snap on scan tool you are using? one that can do the functions you used in this video?
Ive had to replace the vsv by the canister 2 times. They seem to get crusty and stick. Had to get a dorman ones as toyota does not sell the charcoal vsv by itself for my ride.
they can be cleaned with carb cleaner remove it cycle it and spray and bench test it
Ok good diagnostic thanks my friend
Hello, I have a 2000 camry 2.2l with high postive long term fuel trim at 20% at idle, but at higher rpm it drops to 5%, but I cannot find a leak, would a exhaust manifold or intake manifold leak would cuase this? I also have do NOT have check engine light on.
Thanks for getting underneath the car for me. Lol. Your a good teacher..... Thank you🙏💕💪✌️
there is a tsb for charcoal contaminating system . still needs a charcoal canister. i fix this complaint all the time
Hello love your videos! I have a 4runner 2002 and when I have my gas tank at half and I go to fill it. It'll keep shutting off the gas pump. But if I go to the gas station with a almost complete empty tank with the gas light on. Then the pump will fill up just fine what do you think it is?
Great question. There may be a sticky 1 way valve in the fill hose.
I love me the part 2's Had a similar issue with my daughter in laws Saturn. The vent solenoid was toast. It wasn't operating.changed it out and voila, she could fill up her tank. I'll take brownie points wherever I can get em.
thank for sharing
thank u so much
i'm curious..is it she can't fill her tank while the car is running and it stalls out like mine does or is it she can't fill her tank either running or not because the pump nozzle shuts it off repeatedly?
The evap canister is falling apart. The junk he blew out. The fix is to put a inline screen filter between canister and valve.
If the same problem reoccurs that might be just the fix :)
So this is only part 1.... hmmm. Looking forward to part 2.
Get out your notebook and pencil for Part 2, Cuba :)
BBB no longer offers TSBs and wiring diagrams. We apologize for the inconvenience.
dealing with a 446 on my daughters 2005 Camry. Damn is the canister a pain to get to. Would have to drop the exhaust to remove passenger side.
Did the charcoal canister come apart and some of it got stuck in the valve. Typically toyotas are foolproof on their evap systems and dont have many issues. Good job digging deeper into it and wonder if those valves come with a new canister they may have gotten lucky and they do.
Hi Mike, good thought,! As you owill see in Part 2 the EVAP codes would have come back even if the canister was replaced :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Yeah I started commenting before the bonus footage lol. Great work
And one last thing has well I've changed my spark plugs and wires and has well cleaned the throttle body on my 2002 4runner limited about 2 months ago And I completed all the drivecycles that I had such has the o2 sensors and evap has well other things . But the only one thing that won't go away still is the catalytic converter incomplete whys that? Or anything i can do and there’s no codes pretty sure it’s the drive cycle
Too many controls. The old school stuff was brilliant: tank had some type of mechanical overflow protection that returned to tank which prevented anything but vapor from going to the canister - no solenoids, vacuum control, or computer "management" required. It was always in service, even with a dead battery. Canister would regenerate during normal engine operation, and as long as canister fresh air filter stayed clean, those things worked for decades - just replace hoses once in a blue moon. I hate these active systems - passive is much more reliable.
Nicely done - there are often gems in a manual regarding theory of operation you just can't get with visual inspections.
Ivan, when are you gonna start selling PHAD shirts??
I'd push a piece of screen in that vent hose- keep the bugs out.
Thumbs up for that. Passenger jets have crashed due insects making a nest in the pitot tube, giving false speed and altitude indication. A peace of plastic fly web and a zip tie would do the trick.
Cut a circle of screen, 1/4" larger diameter than the ID of hose. Center it over hole, gently push in on it's center with a suitable bolt, pushing it 1/2" into the hose. The resilient rubber will keep it's grip.
didn't they have a vent filter to start with? someone hacked it off as the wrong fix probably...
I myself would not push screen into tube. Here in Finland the mud and water might end up into the tube and dry there and plug the screen. If you put just one layer of screen at the end of the tube, mud is more likely to fall off when is has dried and you drive around.
If tah tube would be somewhere else than under the car, pushing a ball of screen in the tube works well!
*Agree* on that- yes, that makes sense here, too. _Some kind_ of end filter must be installed. We have wasps called Mud Daubers that build nests in pipes and any suitable crevice.
Of course, Ivan would use a Presta valve !
Great diag. No parts cannon required.
Not yet...
Ivan, I am assuming the car is equipped with the late EVAP system. 4 or 6 cylinders? 👍
Actually 4!
BBB no longer offers TSBs and wiring diagrams. We apologize for the inconvenience. (
Toyota buen video
NICE!!!!
that link to that tsb doesnt work
I guess RTFMing works for cars too.
With how old the car is, does it still have to pass emissions?
Depending on which county the car is registered in yes. Still has to pass visual for any PA state inspection. Not being able to put fuel in the tank is the big issue.
Is that the one that was sitting in your shop the end of the rogue video? How many miles are on that?
Yup that's the one, at only 138k miles!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics looks in pretty good shape for a 2001.
Yeah it's in great shape, only 138k miles!
Since this is "Part 1," I assume the fix did not completely or only intermittently solve the no-fill issue? Good deductive reasoning though.
Fill issue was solved. However, there is another problem at hand :)
I am struggling with an Evap issue, as we speak!! And all of the info that I've learned from Paul Danner and Eric O is useless at this point! And from the wiring diagrams from BBB ind, none of the usual parts are in play!! I spent a few hours searching this 97 Tahoe, for a vent valve, and can't find one. (Except a generic one on top of the tank) can't find any info on the vacuum switch, just inches from the purge solenoid. And the charcoal canister is open to atmosphere at all times???!!!??? How do you answer a P0441, with those conditions present? No controllable vent valve, no pressure sensor, no way to pull a vacuum on the system, to check for leaks, and a canister open to atmosphere at all times?????? It's so frustrating! I don't have bidirectional scan tools, and have verified that the purge solenoid don't leak vacuum, and does open to purge when outside power is applied! I verified that the vacuum switch does operate, and applies power when key is on, and turns off as vacuum is applied. I verified that most of the system is tight and free from leaks, but with a canister that is open to atmosphere at all times, I can't see a leak possible, or even any problem! The only thing I can't do, is apply purge from the computer, to verify that the computer command is present! I can apply signal manually, but can't bidirectional lay do it! Still have the p0441 come back, tho!! At this point, I'm thinking that a overfilling of the tank, along with a malfunctioning manual vent valve on the tank, is causing an issue! It seems to come shortly after a fuel tank top off! So, a full tank, that sloshes too much liquid into the vent tubing, creates some issues!! I'm at a loss, otherwise! I suggested to not fill the tank to extra full, for the next few fill ups, to see if that makes a difference!
But this charcoal canister has me confused! It's a 97, but looks like an older 70s style can! A purge line, a tank line, and a open to atmosphere factory venting line! The top is marked to CLEAN AIR INTAKE, but it's not set up that way, too far away, and has a factory looking covering that allows fresh air to flows and no air filter to be seen! The best I can tell, the tank is free to vent into the canister, thru the charcoal media. The purge is free to pull the vapors from the charcoal media. But nothing visible closes the system off! It's nothing I've learned about, in these recent times! It may be old as dirt, and nothing like today's systems, but it's foreign to me!
I think there's "two" vent valves on those and they twist lock directly into the top of the fuel tank, go to a tee fitting then off to the cannister, maybe through a vaccum controlled switch.
there may be a vacuum line running from front to rear ( going by memory, which is a bit rusty on them..
should be the devils. www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/chevrolet,1997,tahoe,5.7l+v8,1061367,fuel+&+air,fuel+tank+vent+valve,11246
and photo #9's in www.wholesalegmpartsonline.com/images/parts/gm/fullsize/970506TK03-001.JPG
again, I don't recall the whole system from front to rear
'97 was barely OBD-II, it's possible they weren't doing evap leak monitoring on trucks at that point so it's quite possible that there's no vent valve. P0441 is for incorrect purge flow - either not flowing or flowing when it's not supposed to be.
throttle bottle yes! That looks like what I have to deal with! Thanks a lot!
Robert Hancock yep!! Incorrect flow is right. I have tested the vac switch, and the purge valve, both for operation, just not from the computer! I just don't know if the computer is signaling them! I know they both work, and have correct wiring from the connectors to the components!
The vac switch has constant ground, and the computer energizes the pos side, with the key on. It also has a secondary small vac line from the pcv outlet connector, which I assume is an attempt to provide a positive "switch on vac" during non-purge states. I assume it uses this to identify a working non-purge state of being! When the purge is happening, manifold vac is allowed thru the purge valve, creating a vac under the switch, to open the switch! The vac under the switch, to hold the switch open, has to be stronger than the vac holding the switch closed, to demonstrate that enough vac exists to open the circuit, meaning that proper purge is happening. The purge solenoid has a constant power source, and the computer supplies ground to actuate purge flow! I can only assume that all of this happens at an appropriate time, flat cruising, light throttle, long open road. I feel like I could rig up some test lighting, to see if it happens. That couldn't be too hard, I guess! Make one rig to see if the vac switch stays lit until the other rig is lighted up by the computer purge circuit, and the vac light goes out! If it never happens, somethings is amiss! Just what is amiss, is the $60000000 question, at this point! Assuming that I have the system design figured out correctly! Assuming the purge light comes on, and the vac switch light goes out, everything should be working! If the vas switch never goes out, or goes out when it's not supposed to, there's a problem with that part of the system. And if the solenoid never comes on that means a problem in that part! And if the solenoid light comes on, and the vac switch light don't go out, that's another problem!! I THINK I CAN!! I THINK I CAN!! I THINK I CAN!!
Thankfully, I have time to figure all of this out!! It needs a new spider injector kit right now! Sooo.....
Out of sight out of mind, shops will quote high, and fix it later.
Once you submit and sign the work order then they actually diagnose the system.
A shop exists to make money, their job is not to save money with a no parts repair.
No wonder people are hesitant to take it to a shop.
On my 2001 Camry I just put a new gas cap and dtc went away.
Wow never seen a gas cap go bad...you got lucky!
Hey Ivan, Was the gunk that you blew out little pieces of charcoal? If so, the canister is breaking apart and will need to be replaced. My old 97 Pathfinder with 200k miles had clogged lines filled with charcoal all the way to the purge valve.
That thought crossed my mind. If it comes back withing a year with the same problem, we'll look for a more permanent solution. So far it works perfectly as designed!
👍 👍
Ivan,
What kind of "junk" came out of the valve?
Seens to me some other problem has to exist if junk is allowed in to that sysyem.
It came out so fast I didn't really get a chance to see it. Considering the vent hose is just exposed to the underside of the car, could have been cobwebs and dirt...
Dam it just keeps giving, i got lost half way though ha ha :-D
Over complex design for a basic job.
In Part 2 we get into the nitty-gritty details. I will make your head hurt haha
Air shouldn't be coming out of the large hose. It should be routed to the airbox. If that's the way Toyota set it up, I'd be surprised.
No parts required PHAD style! :) 👍
Is the vent valve, you replaced?
Toyota Yoda!!!
Glad to see you realized the snapon has bluetooth
now if we could just get a canister for those southern girls with the vapors lol
Man, this us very common out here in AZ with trucks and SUVs that frequently run off road. Lots of sand gets into the EVAP vent line or valve.
And yes lots of free information out there and all it takes is a little research.
spraying WD40 into it does not seem like a good solution... its petroleum based and will likely break down plastic. Something like a dry lubricant with Teflon would be preferred...or even silicon spray.
probably Mud daubers lol thanks for the insight.
Smoke machine
Don’t light a cigarette I’m sure you don’t have that nasty addiction.
Careful Ivan , your gonna get every yahoo in the country wanting their car fixed for peanuts and livestock.
Well the customer should demand quality, proper and accurate diagnostics, and fair estimates.
What are you doing posting videos at 3 a.m. ?! Go to bed.
Since this video is "Part 1", I'm a bit skeptical that you've solved the problem (23:22).
BTW, UA-cam was running Cadillac ads during your video, so apparently Cadillac is impressed by you and your audience.
Part 2 will be up soon ;)