monk supports multiple playstyles? the ranged healing style can contribute dps comparable to the melee style? even 80% of what melee can do? 60%? im skeptical. paladins were given a ranged holy power spender in denounce, but they made it PvP only. Righteous Judgement talent could cast consecration at 50% chance whenever Judge is used but then that was nerfed to 30%. personally i don't think devs care about player preferences when it comes to playstyle. they've had their chance to demonstrate a true support of multiple playstyles and i'm not seeing it personally. the skeleton is there but they only give meat to one way that they prefer in their offices at the time, depending on who is currently employed. it doesn't feel like player preferences are taken into consideration unless its the barber shop - maybe im sounding more harsh than i intend to. but it all seems skin deep to me, i'm sad to say.
Right now Pres actually feels really good most of the time (at least in coordinated play), and it has been heartening to see players out there succeeding in ~30s with it. However, when the class struggles it realllllly does struggle. The biggest issue is that the trouble spots for Pres often line up 'perfectly' with many of the encounters. This is especially the case with fights that involve a large arena with mechanics that punish stacking. Generally these are all solvable, but it doesn't feel great to force your crew to find new solutions for old problems just to cater to your limitations, especially when you could, say, just play your Resto Druid and have no range issues at all. Speaking of, it also kills me how just a simple Efflorescence gets people to stack far better than any amount of Evoker pleading ever could!
Great post 100% agree. My only issues with Pres atm are positioning ones with pugs and the fact that Pres doesn't handle random or mistake damage well at all. If I'm blanketing Echoes and setting up for the next mechanic with VE and someone takes damage from the fire right before, it's GG and I either have to waste all my Echoes and VE early or let the guy die. It feels like how Disc used to play; very scripted and can't handle random damage well at all but Pres also has range limitations.
You hit the nail on the head on basically every subject. I completely agree on basically everything. For holy paladin, it’s just got too many gimmicks/mechanics packed into it. Glimmer, beacons, caster/melee, builder/spender are just too many things to tack onto a spec and balance a playstyle around.
please allow me to disagree. from my perspective on the concept of class design, i think it is indeed possible to create many versions of a single theme, even within the same general tree, that allows for 3 or 4 paths through, and provided with teh same 30ish talent points. the choice nodes are a good example of this, allowing a large degree of flexibility. ultimately, i view your statement as something that would obviously be said by someone entirely uncommitted to the premise from the start, so you don't even bother trying to make it work. Death Must Die is releasing a very large update on april 20 or 21, and they are adding talent trees to it, and i believe they released a blog update on steam recently to highlight this possibility in their own version of what a paladin is. but in any case, i think its worth looking to as an example of how people can create a talent system with many options, maybe not to the level WoW can, but for a studio as large and successful as WoW's devs are, we should expect a lot more
I went back to my Druid to heal these past couple weeks, my Shaman has higher IO. But the problem with Shaman I found doing high keys is that I can go OOM very easily on it. Also Spirit Link totem is basically unreliable in pugs, I'll be lucky if I can get good consistent use out of it, it's just not a great spell, the radius couldn't be any tinier, they obviously balance the radius of everything against the raid encounters. I also realized that the entire time I was healing keys on my Druid I was ignoring the Bear talents. Those things are busted now that I actually see what's going on. My default build had Cyclone, Mass Roots, Typhoon, basically all the CC instead of the bear stuff and I don't even use the CC unless it's Incorp/Spiteful. The last time I used CC on the base dungeon was in Brackenhide. I used to Cyclone stuff, but that was before they added Grove Guardians, those things are insane, you just heal through everything with them, you don't need CC.
Yeah. Holy paladin is definitely suffering from an identity crisis. Cooldown based - To properly heal through mechanics, I need stack several CDs for the throughput required. We don’t do much healing outside wings in general. Builder / spender - Wasting precious GCDs to build holy power on laughably weak spenders. Light of dawn is not worth being on action bars right now LOL. What are we? Ranged or melee? If I want to do any meaningful damage, I better be in melee. Holy power generation is also more efficient in melee. HOWEVER, they buff all the CASTER talents. They want me hard casting while in melee range? Does that sound like riveting gameplay? No way! That’s my 2 cents.
I have a shaman and if I toss down healing rain, whip out a totem, and splash in some chain heal I crush dungeons. I get on my Hpal and I have to be member of mensa and manage a ton of spells/CD/utility and I am BARELY scraping by. I have had a holy Pally for almost 20 years and never had another healer. I just recently leveled this shaman and it made me realize how bad Hpals are right now. It's awful. Which sucks because I absolutely love my Hpal.
I enjoy hpala atm but sure abit bloted witv healing cd and abit weak without. Like the casting buff but would be nice if it had something with melle abilities to buff or change something with cast time to mske it smother. Nice utility and mans sucks tbh.. spender costing mana and Hpower and pretty weal baseline feels bad for sure. Blame it on all the modifier that make it heal like 50k and then 100k with all the the modifiers you stack ontop of it.. 30/60% from dawn and then 20% from being in conc. Trink procs and cooldowns after😅
I think what Shaman needs is a Spirit Link totem rework. Having to have people physically stand in it isn't working anymore, just make it a buff. They're reworking Death and Decay apparently, they need to do that to all the circular ground spells.
Yea good point. Disc got "modernised" in the sense that Blizz looked at Dome and saw how it promoted degenerate gameplay in raids and was unreliable in pugs and gave Disc Luminous Barrier back as an alternative. But Rsham suffering from the same problem with SL didn't get that treatment.
For holy priests- So many of tools we need are actually already in our toolkit. AoE healing- CoH isn't bad, a buff or more synergy would be nice- but PoH has been a disaster of a spell since Wrath. It's just too weak and holy priests aoe hasn't recovered since they broke it- I was soo good. I agree that we need either a stronger defensive (right now our def is a combination of fade-talented, Desperate prayer, and powerword shield- which is crazy that in the time it takes other healers to find and select one button, I have to select three!! and it's STILL not even half as good) or some built in versatility. Speed is another issue, we are just NOT mobile. Utility- I'm honestly ok with NOT having a BR and an interrupt b/c honestly Holy priest has too many buttons already. IMO it feels better for dps to have interrupt tools b/c they're focus is on the mobs. Changing my focus from players to mobs and tracking what mobs are doing is frankly annoying. I'd honestly like to see them revert the changes to Mass Dispel, it felt so good at the beginning of the xpac. It's just annoying that b/c high end players were using it to negate things at the top of play the changes to deter those action impacts us casual players pretty harshly. Mana- I always come back to mana because, particularly in a m+ environment- either all of the healers need mana or none of them should. The fact that the top S tier healers you mentioned have ZERO mana issues and depending on the key I have to drink every other pull on HP is unconscionable. It's so frustrating and something else that makes healers that rely more heavily on drinking, less desirable in a key b/c the party has to stop and wait for you- or worse they won't stop and then get pissed at you b/c you have no way to recover mana. This is especially annoying when affixes like Spiteful and Bursting prolong your combat status/interrupt drinking. Ok that's my rant- sorry for walls of text!!!
monk supports multiple playstyles? the ranged healing style can contribute dps comparable to the melee style? even 80% of what melee can do? 60%? im skeptical. paladins were given a ranged holy power spender in denounce, but they made it PvP only. Righteous Judgement talent could cast consecration at 50% chance whenever Judge is used but then that was nerfed to 30%. personally i don't think devs care about player preferences when it comes to playstyle.
they've had their chance to demonstrate a true support of multiple playstyles and i'm not seeing it personally. the skeleton is there but they only give meat to one way that they prefer in their offices at the time, depending on who is currently employed. it doesn't feel like player preferences are taken into consideration unless its the barber shop - maybe im sounding more harsh than i intend to. but it all seems skin deep to me, i'm sad to say.
Maybe Evoker in general needs some utility passive like increased range of effects that trigger on targets within some range.
Right now Pres actually feels really good most of the time (at least in coordinated play), and it has been heartening to see players out there succeeding in ~30s with it. However, when the class struggles it realllllly does struggle.
The biggest issue is that the trouble spots for Pres often line up 'perfectly' with many of the encounters. This is especially the case with fights that involve a large arena with mechanics that punish stacking. Generally these are all solvable, but it doesn't feel great to force your crew to find new solutions for old problems just to cater to your limitations, especially when you could, say, just play your Resto Druid and have no range issues at all.
Speaking of, it also kills me how just a simple Efflorescence gets people to stack far better than any amount of Evoker pleading ever could!
Great post 100% agree. My only issues with Pres atm are positioning ones with pugs and the fact that Pres doesn't handle random or mistake damage well at all.
If I'm blanketing Echoes and setting up for the next mechanic with VE and someone takes damage from the fire right before, it's GG and I either have to waste all my Echoes and VE early or let the guy die. It feels like how Disc used to play; very scripted and can't handle random damage well at all but Pres also has range limitations.
You hit the nail on the head on basically every subject. I completely agree on basically everything.
For holy paladin, it’s just got too many gimmicks/mechanics packed into it. Glimmer, beacons, caster/melee, builder/spender are just too many things to tack onto a spec and balance a playstyle around.
please allow me to disagree. from my perspective on the concept of class design, i think it is indeed possible to create many versions of a single theme, even within the same general tree, that allows for 3 or 4 paths through, and provided with teh same 30ish talent points. the choice nodes are a good example of this, allowing a large degree of flexibility. ultimately, i view your statement as something that would obviously be said by someone entirely uncommitted to the premise from the start, so you don't even bother trying to make it work.
Death Must Die is releasing a very large update on april 20 or 21, and they are adding talent trees to it, and i believe they released a blog update on steam recently to highlight this possibility in their own version of what a paladin is. but in any case, i think its worth looking to as an example of how people can create a talent system with many options, maybe not to the level WoW can, but for a studio as large and successful as WoW's devs are, we should expect a lot more
I went back to my Druid to heal these past couple weeks, my Shaman has higher IO. But the problem with Shaman I found doing high keys is that I can go OOM very easily on it. Also Spirit Link totem is basically unreliable in pugs, I'll be lucky if I can get good consistent use out of it, it's just not a great spell, the radius couldn't be any tinier, they obviously balance the radius of everything against the raid encounters.
I also realized that the entire time I was healing keys on my Druid I was ignoring the Bear talents. Those things are busted now that I actually see what's going on. My default build had Cyclone, Mass Roots, Typhoon, basically all the CC instead of the bear stuff and I don't even use the CC unless it's Incorp/Spiteful. The last time I used CC on the base dungeon was in Brackenhide. I used to Cyclone stuff, but that was before they added Grove Guardians, those things are insane, you just heal through everything with them, you don't need CC.
Yeah. Holy paladin is definitely suffering from an identity crisis.
Cooldown based - To properly heal through mechanics, I need stack several CDs for the throughput required. We don’t do much healing outside wings in general.
Builder / spender - Wasting precious GCDs to build holy power on laughably weak spenders. Light of dawn is not worth being on action bars right now LOL.
What are we? Ranged or melee? If I want to do any meaningful damage, I better be in melee. Holy power generation is also more efficient in melee. HOWEVER, they buff all the CASTER talents. They want me hard casting while in melee range? Does that sound like riveting gameplay? No way!
That’s my 2 cents.
I have a shaman and if I toss down healing rain, whip out a totem, and splash in some chain heal I crush dungeons. I get on my Hpal and I have to be member of mensa and manage a ton of spells/CD/utility and I am BARELY scraping by. I have had a holy Pally for almost 20 years and never had another healer. I just recently leveled this shaman and it made me realize how bad Hpals are right now. It's awful. Which sucks because I absolutely love my Hpal.
@@LeoSpaceman2012 I feel you on that man. I picked up resto Druid and I was shocked at how much more capable they are compared to hpal!
I enjoy hpala atm but sure abit bloted witv healing cd and abit weak without. Like the casting buff but would be nice if it had something with melle abilities to buff or change something with cast time to mske it smother. Nice utility and mans sucks tbh.. spender costing mana and Hpower and pretty weal baseline feels bad for sure. Blame it on all the modifier that make it heal like 50k and then 100k with all the the modifiers you stack ontop of it.. 30/60% from dawn and then 20% from being in conc. Trink procs and cooldowns after😅
Very hard to point out the meta. Holy paladin may be suffering more because ret pally is op right now, so it's hard to justify playing holy.
Guess that's why healers aren't used in mdi and high keys right? Top kek
I think what Shaman needs is a Spirit Link totem rework. Having to have people physically stand in it isn't working anymore, just make it a buff.
They're reworking Death and Decay apparently, they need to do that to all the circular ground spells.
Yea good point. Disc got "modernised" in the sense that Blizz looked at Dome and saw how it promoted degenerate gameplay in raids and was unreliable in pugs and gave Disc Luminous Barrier back as an alternative.
But Rsham suffering from the same problem with SL didn't get that treatment.
For holy priests- So many of tools we need are actually already in our toolkit. AoE healing- CoH isn't bad, a buff or more synergy would be nice- but PoH has been a disaster of a spell since Wrath. It's just too weak and holy priests aoe hasn't recovered since they broke it- I was soo good.
I agree that we need either a stronger defensive (right now our def is a combination of fade-talented, Desperate prayer, and powerword shield- which is crazy that in the time it takes other healers to find and select one button, I have to select three!! and it's STILL not even half as good) or some built in versatility.
Speed is another issue, we are just NOT mobile.
Utility- I'm honestly ok with NOT having a BR and an interrupt b/c honestly Holy priest has too many buttons already. IMO it feels better for dps to have interrupt tools b/c they're focus is on the mobs. Changing my focus from players to mobs and tracking what mobs are doing is frankly annoying. I'd honestly like to see them revert the changes to Mass Dispel, it felt so good at the beginning of the xpac. It's just annoying that b/c high end players were using it to negate things at the top of play the changes to deter those action impacts us casual players pretty harshly.
Mana- I always come back to mana because, particularly in a m+ environment- either all of the healers need mana or none of them should. The fact that the top S tier healers you mentioned have ZERO mana issues and depending on the key I have to drink every other pull on HP is unconscionable. It's so frustrating and something else that makes healers that rely more heavily on drinking, less desirable in a key b/c the party has to stop and wait for you- or worse they won't stop and then get pissed at you b/c you have no way to recover mana. This is especially annoying when affixes like Spiteful and Bursting prolong your combat status/interrupt drinking.
Ok that's my rant- sorry for walls of text!!!
Healers shouldnt have dps as a tuning vector. Its stupid and its why healers are done playing.