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CES Letter Discussed in Detail - Jeremy Runnells Pt. 2 - Mormon Stories 481
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- In part 2 of a 3 part series, Jeremy talks with John in detail about the CES Letter and outlines many of the points from the letter including Joseph Smith's polygamy and the Book of Mormon translation.
Part 1: • The Genesis of the CES...
Part 2: • CES Letter Discussed i...
Part 3: • Reactions to CES Lette...
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***We are 100% donor funded! Please click here to donate to keep this content coming!: donorbox.org/mormon-stories?d...
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Timecodes:
00:00 Introduction
00:30 Using Creative Commons attribution
02:15 Writing as Jeremy's language
02:52 Quote J Reuben Clark
03:24 Presence 1769 version KJ bible errors in Book of Mormon
06:07 Sermon on the Mount in BoM vs Bible
07:08 Italics
09:20 DNA, anachronisms, geography
13:29 Family business treasure hunting. Understanding culture. Way of translating BoM
18:10 Late war, First book of Napoleon
24:35 View of the Hebrews. Elder B.H. Roberts
26:44 116 pages
27:02 How was the book of Mormon produced?
29:02 Lehi's dream, JS's father's dream
30:06 Collaborators? Oliver Cowdery?
32:56 Plates not being used, stones in the hat
34:57 First vision and witnesses
40:16 Changing Book of Mormon in a new edition
41:28 Other inconsistensies
46:27 Book of Abraham, Kinderhook plates
47:22 Joseph's practice of polygamy
52:22 Appeal of the CES letter. CES letter as an introduction
53:48 Positive response. Debunking FAIR's debunking
58:05 Jeremy's motivation criticized
1:00:18 Church needs to be honest
1:00:47 FAIR
1:04:03 Fear for safety?
1:05:22 Effect on Jeremy's life?
1:06:08 Why debunking FAIR debunking?
1:08:40 FAIR changed their answers. Addressing FUD
It took a deaf man for people to HEAR the truth.
❤❤❤
Amen!
God has a good sense of humor sometimes in reference to who He uses
That’s profound ❤
Jeremy Runnells, you have set decency against dishonesty.
Your CES letter is saving lives.
The little deaf boy crying himself to sleep over his parents' divorce has grown into a fine man of integrity.
I started researching the church more after I had my 3rd traumatic experience with it. I needed to see WHY this thing that was my saving grace was hurting me so badly. I then found the CES letter. My jaw hit.the.floor. i stayed up all night reading it. I was so mad. All I could feel was shock and betrayal...but then underneath it all...I felt better. Because the proof let me know I really could, guilt free, walk away. That was 7 years ago. Thank you Jeremy. You arr helping many of us live a better life.
Omg this is me a few weeks ago and currently processing. Walking away guilt free is key and everything to traumatic religious freedom! Thanks for sharing I definitely related!!!
Tremendous respect and appreciation for Jeremy Runnells with his quest, research, authenticity, and humility. A man of honor. Thank you.
!
My eyes have been completely opened because of this man and the CES letter. I’ve been a very strong member my entire life. What you would be all a “Molly Mormon”. Always trying to be perfect. But when I came across this with my husband we were instantly convinced that we’ve been lied to our whole lives but most member don’t even know it and it breaks my heart.
Easy fooled
They *could* know it, many actively choose to ignore it. Which is even MORE of a shame imo, to **intentionally choose** to stay ignorant & enslaved to lies.
Prayer for Mormon people to seek Jesus for truth of real Biblical salvation, not dependent of a false prophet or organized religion. John:1- verses 1through17. The Bible alone, nothing or no other books added.Trinity alone through Jesus alone.There are many deceived by cults and Doctrines of demons within Religion. And false teachings to actually lead good people away from The God of the Bible. Satan is real and very clever. May you not be deceived and get out of any false Doctrines ,Jesus and seeking only Him will lead you to Eternal Life and truth of the Bible. It is not just about feelings , it takes research and Biblical study, it takes reading and learning who Jesus really is . Bless all who seek Him.♡
JESUS! THE WAY, THE TRUTH. THE LIFE! Trust the Word (that's Jesus
"In the beginning was the word...") and God's word THE BIBLE for peace, reconciliation with God, wisdom, forgiveness, joy, eternal life. He is the alpha & omega, the beginning and the end. AMEN.❤🙏🔩
2:20, "It's the place where I don't mispronounce stuff." Jeremy, your speech is relentlessly beautiful. Don't ever change!
This poor guy has been lied to his entire young life. Just like some many many others. The leaders of this cults reaction to this CES letter that went viral which is brilliantly well put together (as well as his brilliant response to Fair Mormons pathetic rebuttal) just goes to show how they fear discovery and why they employ and army of apologists to plug up the holes. It's encouraging and exciting to see so many leaving the sect. I just feel for those whose lives are torn apart as they try to leave and are rejected by their families and their sheep like communities. Thank you Jeremy for your intelligence and clarity and for being so resolute in your pursuit of the truth. Can't have been easy. You are a beacon of light in the Mormon dark world of lies.
Nice one 😊
One awesome thing about being an ex-Mormon is that I don't have to give all that tithing money to a giant corporation for City Creek or huge malls and land purchases. I can now give it to the charities of my choice who actually help more people, like Doctors Without Boarders, The Red Cross, Kiva etc.
+Daniel Nelson Or.... beer! :)
rks note
You are misinformed about the percent of donations get to the victims when speaking of many charities. I suggest this site to check them out first; www.charitynavigator.org/
The LDS church, however, is a different story. Popular belief among Mormons is that the church uses a significant percentage of their budget for charity. That is not the case with tithing money.
If you donate directly to LDS Humanitarian Services, the money should be well spent in helping victims. But tithing just enriches the church and pays for unnecessary buildings and land purchases.
If the LDS Church were designed by God, I'd still be a part of it, but it's not.
The LDS church has some good teachings, but it also has some horrible ones. You can get the good elsewhere, without all the baggage.
+Daniel Nelson ssir.org/articles/entry/what_charity_navigator_gets_wrong_about_effective_altruism Here is an interesting article I found that argues givewell.org is a much more effective charity rating organization due to its focus on effectiveness. Not saying charitynavigator.org is bad, just food for thought.
I never bothered getting excommunicated or resigning from the church. I just quit going and nobody has reached out to me which I love.
God bless and keep you. Glad your eyes were opened
Thank you for all that you do. I am in the middle of my own faith crisis. I haven't slept much in the last 3 days and just told my wife and bishop yesterday (i am his executive secretary) how i fell. Last night I went on a walk at 4 am and cried until I no longer had any tears to cry. Your effort has really helped me. I hope I am in a better place soon.
JUST KNOW NO RELIGION IS NEEDED! THERE ARE NO PROPHETS IN LDS. CRYING IS SOMETHING CULTS USE ON PEOPLE. EMOTIONAL CONTROL, BITE MODEL BEHAVIOR CONTROL,INFORMATION CONTROL, THOUGHT CONTROL, EMOTIONAL CONTROL. STEVEN HASSAN HAS A YT VIDEO. LDS USE FEELINGS AND EVEN PRAY FOR A FEELING. NOT HOW YOU FIND TRUTH
Dustin M .....How are you and your family doing today?
@@daveyjones9930
Thanks for commenting, it has been over 4 years now, wow!. We are doing great. My wife and young kids made it out together. My wife was amazing! She went from 100% believing, reading scriptures and praying every night to out of the church in less that a month. The truth set us free. We are still happily married, but our relationships have been strained with our families, but it's ok. We have made several new friends and I'm so happy we made it out.
@@7476318 if your family had any sealing or endowments done, unbind your souls. The rituals they performed were to bind your souls in an evil way. We're all connected and already part of God, a sealing binds your souls into an eternal prison where your soul is unable to move freely, incarnate and follow your souls purpose. They do it for power, control and dark reasons and secretly believed if they bind souls they can be the God over them. Its very satanic. Even the aprons are of satan. Please research how to unbind your souls and cleanse. Pray that God, archangel Raphael and metatron help you free your souls so youre able to be free with god, light and love. Also research Chris langan.
Going Thru this in Utah myself sucks
Watching this interview series for the umpteenth time,. The best, most sincere, honest cult debunking interview I’ve ever seen but with a well meaning heart. Thank you gentlemen.
I know this is an old podcast, but Jeremy is inspiring and so impressive. I so appreciate the sacrifice he has made. I love what he said about the letter not being completely comprehensive. It doesn't make a you an expert on the problems Mormon history faces. Rather, it shows you what can be done by one man on his own (with good sources).
Advice I would give to my younger self and Mormons everywhere:
Read the CES letter with an open mind and heart, the same way you would approach reading the BoM. Have the courage to learn something new and some things that challenge what you already know. Be humble enough to admit you don't know all the answers and that no one does. It's going to be painful and uncomfortable because you've invested so much time, energy, money, really all you have to the church. Your whole identity and world view is wrapped up in this neat little box with a bow that is LDS theology. You've been told your whole life that you are special because you belong to the one true church. Only 0.2% (less than half a percent) of the world's population is LDS. And you're one of them. That's very special indeed! Accepting that you're not special is going to be a hard pill to swallow. But then you'll realize that everyone is special and you will experience a love for others (including your Creator) that will completely overwhelm you, in the best way. I know what you're thinking: "I already know everyone is special and I already love God and all of his children!" Oh, my darling. Just you wait.
Understand these important concepts of psychology and philosophy: cognitive dissonance, doubling down, elevation emotions, the B.I.T.E. model, nuance and Occam's razor.
Reading the CES letter was one the best things that I have ever done for myself and I wish I would've read it sooner.
If reading the entire letter (only 84 pages long!) is too scary or too overwhelming for ya, here is a link to an easy to read list of summarized points:
zelphontheshelf.com/the-millennials-brief-guide-to-the-ces-letter/
If none of these things concern you then well, I guess you're not ready to go down the rabbit hole, and may never be, and that's okay. I love you.
🐇...🐇...🐇...
I found the way the CES Letter is written to be very easy for a dyslexic like me to read comprehend and follow, fabulous thank you very much for your diligence in your research Jeremy and also thank you John
That’s fascinating to hear, thank you.
You are awesome, Jeremy. Your CES letter has helped more people out of this harmful cult than perhaps any other document ever. Thank you.
How could anyone attack this gentle, soft-spoken man? And yet, some LDS-faithful have done exactly that.
I am enthralled listening to Jeremy, he is so sincere and smart. I had been wondering about the origins of this letter; it has helped many of my friends and family. Thank you for this interview.
I am so grateful for you helping me open my eyes to this isabe world of Mormonism, my entire life I’ve been lied to! I am so grateful for people like you helping me see the lies this cult has covered up and continues to tell the world!
Just know that you're not alone in this, there are many of us waking up to this🌷Hugs
As a 40+-year member of the LDS church who has read and re-read the Book of Mormon in daily scripture study for decades, this comparison (cesletter.com/late-war) was a shocking eye-opener. Apostle Jeffrey Holland made a famous comment in General Conference that if someone left the LDS church, "it must be done by crawling over or under or around the Book of Mormon to make that exit", implying that the Book of Mormon would be a barrier that would be very difficult to overcome. (Even Sandra and Gerald Tanner still believed in the Book of Mormon for a while after they left the church.)
However, after seeing the above comparison, as well as reading B.H. Roberts' book, "Studies of the Book of Mormon", it is extremely apparent that Joseph's book is simply a remix of a number of books he would have had access to and been familiar with. Eyewitness accounts of how he dictated the book WITHOUT using the 'gold plates' (that were supposedly created with great effort and preserved through centuries for that very reason), his own mother's comments about his "amusing stories", and his attempt to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon by sending out several of his followers for that purpose, were already pointing toward a totally different conclusion as to the origin of the Book of Mormon than what the LDS church claims.
These comparisons of the wording and phrases of the Book of Mormon to other books paint a very clear picture of exactly how Joseph Smith synthesized them into his 'revealed word of God'. The truths that are in the Book of Mormon that millions of people have resonated with came from those already taught in the Bible, from inspiring stories about our nation's fight for freedom and independence, and from stirring principles upon which that fight was based. Throw in a few stories copied and exaggerated from some in the Bible, add a large amount of scripture from that same source, make up a story about it being delivered to you by an angel, and Voila! you've got a best seller. There is enough truth in it to allow misgivings at frequent anachronisms and adieus to be overcome and quieted down, and to convince yourself that, since those principles are true, then the rest of the book must be too, and that the author must have been a 'prophet' who was 'inspired of the Lord'. The depth of the deception is mind-boggling.
I have given more than 40 years of my time, talents, and tithing to the LDS church. I have been a consistent temple recommend holder, served as Gospel Doctrine teacher, Relief Society President, Young Women's President, as well as other callings, and been very faithful to the church in every way. To come to the knowledge of these facts that the church has kept hidden for decades was devastating. I compare it to having been married for most of your life and then finding out that your spouse has been cheating on you the whole time. There is a grief process that goes from disbelief to anger and a sense of betrayal, to grief, to acceptance, and then finally, peace. Hearing Jeremy's story reminds me that I am not alone in this journey, and that there is life after Mormonism. I applaud his courage in sharing it. Thank you, Jeremy.
I anxiously am waiting for the peace... going through hell at the moment... It's ironic to put it that way since because I no longer believe in God, the devil goes as well...
@@bonegrubber After viewing many many Near Death Experiences, I have re-gained a belief that there is something after this life. However, if there is not, what does that mean? If we truly disappear once these mortal bodies die, we won't know it. I just try to live each day with love and enjoy whatever time I have. I wish you peace and love as you live the rest of your life beyond Mormonism.
Matt Woodruff Satan and Jesus are real. But JS corrupted everything about the Bible which has been researched for its validity more than any other book (66books) around. I can’t blame you for wanting to toss out EVERYTHING associated with LDS, but just think about it for a minute. What is the most effective way Satan can ruin your relationship with the one true God with free access to the finished work of Jesus? Trap someone into a false religion, use Jesus’s name in a twisted way, then wake you up to the con of it all. Why do you think the Bible warns so many times against listening to a “different gospel”? Because what you are going through did not need to happen! I am so sorry!!
Robert Rosskopf You are obviously LDS. And I resent you even using the name of Jesus because you’re church has corrupted who He is. Worse it has you believing that “apostasy” is just fine.
Robert Rosskopf Your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. Therefore you really should not call him by that same name. Just one example is that you believe He is the brother of Lucifer (Satan). That’s impossible because He created everything including you, me and Lucifer. 2)Another example is that you minimize His finished work of salvation. 3)Another is that only He has the Melchizedek priesthood not to be given to anyone . 4)Another is that you do not acknowledge His Deity., and you don’t think He should be worshipped. 5)Another is that you actually think that God who is spirit had physical human sex with Mary (who was a virgin at the birth) in order to conceive Jesus. 6) you actually miss the entire point about blood atonement as well. Old Testament yearly atonement (which was the main reason for the SINGLE temple’s existence), required DEATH by blood shed(as in Jesus’s crucifixion), that covered sins. Jesus’s death was the FINAL sacrifice which is why temples are obsolete now. Your church uses them for Masonic rituals, sealings (also not biblical) and standing in for dead people as if that were effective (not biblical). I believe in Deuteronomy 18 vs 20-22. which is why JS is a false prophet
Thank you I must say you've answered a lot of my questions I've been having I've been meeting with the missionaries and I've been asking some questions myself cuz I was looking at joining but you've convinced me not to join so thank you sir I will stick where I am in my life
I have an old book of Mormon my mother gave to me, the church reprinted the book of Mormon years ago and took out several things stating they were errors...like elephants were in the Americas that's one I remember..im a devout Catholic and have never been happier
31:00 that fact, that Oliver never denied the BOM on his deathbed, kept me believing. Knowing he helped write it, I came to the same conclusion:
He didn’t want to tarnish his reputation and be know throughout history as a fraudster.
Thanks for the CES Letter Jeremy! It helped me so much
Rough stone rolling" - Richard Bushman;
"An insider's view of Mormon origins" - Grant Palmer;
"No man knows my history" - Fawn Brodie;
"In sacred loneliness" - Todd Compton;
"Leaving the Saints - How I lost the mormons and found my faith" - Martha Beck;
SOME BOOKS FOR YOU TO KNOW MORE FACTS ABOUT MORMONISM, THE MORMON CORPORATION, ETC
Thank you
It is sad to me to see comments that attempt to discredit John & Jeremy. Unfortunately, they stem from the Mormon church's trickle-down excommunication culture which says it is okay to belittle and ultimately cut off those who have opposing viewpoints. While the spotlight is on Jeremy & John, they only represent a surging number of LDS who are processing troubling & factual issues of the church. If you publically ostracize them, you in effect ostracize all others.
I know Jeremy personally. He is one of the most empathetic people I know. Minutes after meeting me, he was comforting me and giving me advice for how to better navigate my marriage with an active mormon.
He is a wonderful individual (and one of the best dad's I know, too).
Thank you Jeremy for helping me see this fraud for what it is and for helping me leave after a lifetime of believing in it.
1:09 there it is. *That* is a point that struck home the most to me. Thank you Jeremy for that.
You forgot about the name of Moroni’s horse, it was Beuntoyou, you know, woah Beuntoyou. (Wo be unto you!)
I am really enjoying both part 1 and part 2 of Jeremy's interview. Looking forward to part 3. Good job Jeremy, keep up the good work. Mormon Stories ROCKS!!!
The theme running through all of this is to make the LDS church “be honest” about their history. Obviously they can’t be or their whole edifice (or should I say artifice?) would collapse. Like in a criminal trial, without a confession, it is up to the prosecution to produce that preponderance of evidence that will prove guilt beyond a shadow of doubt. Even then a conviction is not assured unless you have a jury that is completely open-minded and unbiased. In my mind, the Tanners, Jeremy, John, and all the other “prosecutors” have done a superlative job in proving fraud. However, as has been shown in the last four years of American politics, people are going to believe what they want to believe regardless of the golden, crystal-clear evidence right in front of them. I would suspect that if, at the next general conference of the church, Russell Nelson (what’s with the use of middle initials in all the GA’s names?) were to announce that, “Yes, everyone from Fawn Brodie to the Tanners to Jeremy Runnells, etc. is right! Joseph Smith was a fraud and the church itself is a total fraud and here are all the details...,” there would still be people that would believe that Nelson was a false prophet and would split off, form a new church with an even longer name, and continue on as before.
That’s the sad truth. And the intended outcome of indoctrinating children from their infancy to believe unreasonable things. It’s further reinforced by the threats of hell which engage the fear response which compromises the brain’s ability to reason.
It’s child abuse.
He recalls all so well.
I am a Never-Mormon (Episcopalian, I have a strong personal faith but do not closely follow any religious practice) and I have been watching Mormon Stories for several years. I find your podcast to be so informative and you provide such varied guests to open discussions about this religion. I have strong feelings about all high control religions, my X mother in law was a Jehovah Whitness which became a serious problem having her in my home and preaching to my children, so I am aware of the issues these types of fear based beliefs that many religions can promote. I recently listened to an old podcast about the CES letter discussed in detail - Jeremy Runnells, Pt 2- Mormon Stories 481 and also the podcast where Jeremy Runnells was excommunicated. In this latter podcast there was a discussion of the type of voice pattern that is used by the Mormon elders (which is also very similar to the voice patterns of the JW elders). I observe that both of these groups have almost exact speech patterns. It is not soothing but instead very uncomfortable, almost robotic. I will say that I almost feel that it has absolutely no emotion but is artificial. As I listened to the discussion about their voices it occurred to me that it was as if they were Eunuchs. By this I mean that it was a very low pitched, even, without emotion either anger or happiness, removed from any attachment to the person they were addressing. It allowed they to wield power without having to be personally invested with the person they are addressing. Listening to it was like the speaker was almost in a type of trance. It breaks my heart that the greater Mormon population (including children) is forced to be scrutinized by men who truly are not invested in the individuals wellbeing and instead of controlling them with their religious dogma. It is so sad that their faith is not there to guide them in the process of finding solutions & peace of mind. The work Mormon Stories does for the people still following the Mormon faith is very important. Please continue and know that your podcasts reach far beyond the Mormon faithful. Thank you
Jeremy, my hero.
“It just all looks like a clumsy hoax”. Spot on!
It's such obvious phoney fiction religion. It's not honest that's oviousbso what is it
Which is why to me it’s soooooo crazy people in modern day continue to follow. Here, join my religion. Harry Potter is the leader. Read these books. 🤦🏻♀️
Honestly speaking I really appreciate you for sharing
Yes. I agree 100% that if the church was more honest then it would save marriages and families. Not just sneaking essays onto the LDS website or having PR representatives talk through press releases. These are real issues that should be discussed in General Conferences from the mouths of the apostles. Generic sunday school lessons no longer suffice.
+Rachel Harris When Mormons say "Look at the fruits of the church" this is part of the reply. Look at the families that have been broken up by Mormonism, suicides from depression, look at polygamy and its resulting genetic defects, teenage marriages, and outcast "lost boys", look at the Danites, BY's blood atonement, MMM, and thousands of hours of time and billions of dollars of wasted money on a corrupt organization where we could have used that money on legitimate charities.
Thanks for giving us the truth!!
I'm afraid to tell my wife because of how engrained her family is in the church. I think in time I could show my wife the problems and she would be opened to it, but because of her family, I am not sure how that will play into all of my "faith crisis". I dont believe anymore, but I am a closet non believer for now, and its hard, and I feel guilty a bit for it. I dont know what to do
There is hope after Mormon hopelessness! Just because the Book of Mormon and the entire Mormon religion are false, it doesn't mean that there isn't truth to be found in Biblical Christianity! Please, search out people like the Tanners, Dennis and Rauni Higley and the Wilders!! All exMormons who came to saving faith in the real Jesus Christ of the Bible! If you'd like to talk more, reach out. God is real. The Bible is real. There is hope! Please seek truth in God's Word, the Bible! I am a born again Christian who has a UA-cam channel witnessing to Mormons while exposing Mormon problems. Don't give up hope or live in fear of telling your wife.. you two can be set free from Mormonism and find joy and peace and beauty in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Reach out if you want some excellent resources to point you in the right direction.
@@itsmejessie Just another BS salesman. Mormonism and Christianity along with all other religions: Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and plenty more all feed on the minds of the weak.
Music Is Life The channel “My Spiritual Life” is an exmormon couple who talks about how it was transitioning when 1 of them still believed and they have other couples on the channel who discuss this. They have no agenda and seem genuine just sharing their experience leaving recently and how to help your partner if they still believe.
@@itsmejessie so golden plates are fake but rising from the dead is real? Talking snakes are real. COME ON !!!
I just sent this to my dad, a patriarch. He'll likely be on here calling these guys apostates and under the influence of Satan like the others. If this doesn't convince a Mormon that it's all a hoax there's no hope for them.
luomio hey, my dads a patriarch too, I’m sorry.
yep.. mine is a Bishop, and refuses to read this.
Keep praying for him. Amen
@@daveyjones9930 Joseph Smith was a free Mason
@@daveyjones9930 Excellent response! Why indeed didn't JS ask God to direct him before embarking on the arduous, time-consuming journey of becoming a 32nd degree Mason?
As a former Rainbow girl myself w/ both parents and grandparents Eastern Star and 32nd degree Masons, I can assure you, the prerequisites for inclusion are daunting.
Loved when Jeremy said people treat the church like a country club. Amen!
Around the 55 min mark talking about divorce and saving marriages and families, really hit me hard. I was raised in an ugly divorced family and it was hard for me as a child and I told my self I would marry someone that sees me for me and never get divorced. And our marriage is great, but This Letter help strengthen our marriage as I’ve gone through my faith crisis with the LDS Church. I love Jesus Christ even more now knowing the doubts I had were true and he see’s me for me. Thanks You Jeremy and everyone else that has put in the work to prove the churches issues.
Thank you Jeremy and John !! Many people waking up ! 🌷
I am addicted to this show! I love it!!!
Me too but i'm still waiting for the continuation of this video do you know when would it be due
carlitos2012ace You should go to Mormon stories channel and subscribe. All the videos would be there to watch.
Richard Holmes Why then is it in the Book of Abraham? And why is Joseph Smith's 'translation' of that Facsimile so ludicrous when compared to the correct translation of that Facsimile by Egyptologists? For a side-by-side comparison of Joseph Smith's 'translation', and modern Egyptologists' translation of Facsimile 1, see here: www.mormonthink.com/book-of-abraham-issues.htm#comparison
Thank you Jeremy for your insight.
My whole family is still very much mormon and it’s sad that all this information isn’t available or easily available in Spanish. So many members that aren’t English speaking don’t even have the chance to find all this stuff out....
You can download the spanish version of the CES letter from here: cesletter.org/
@@colorin81colorado si usted quiere creerlo esta bien.
@@colorin81colorado yo no creo eso pero igual, a todo derecho! Te deseo felicidad ☺️
Agreed. There’s no way my in-laws (Mexico) would ever understand these things because they really have no sources. The church is so much more different there than here in the US.
THE BEST,MOST HONEST AND IMPORTANT MS INTERVIEW EVER❤️
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
Thank you! Just 🙏🏼
I think it’s fair to say that 70 Mormons disliked this video
Lol
I was a convert for about three years as a teen and early 20s. I was so all in that I was voraciously reading church history and found a lot of this. He is right. It is part of the approved documentation. Needless to say that was the last of the church for me. It is amazing to me how the church manages to keep going despite all the information out there that prove it is all an elaborate hoax. I'm convinced that the council is perfectly aware of this but like their power trip.
It really is amazing how information can be hidden for so long and so well. You'd think the internet would destroy the church so quickly. But the bubble is so vast that it really takes someone in the church to either luckily stumble upon the information or actively search for it. And even then, the brainwashing and social pressure is so great that even if they stumble or search for it, they let it slide. A trap I'm lucky to have gotten out of.
my parents divorced when i was 8. sometimes divorce is better for the kids. i think it was in my case.
I prayed my dad would leave my mom & take me with him. She was abusive.
Oh gosh. This is hard to hear. Just started on this journey. The crying does eventually stop right? 😅
I've been on this road a few months. I'm finally starting to feel less angry at the church for lying to me for 40 years. Still upset enough to continue researching despite considering myself an ex-Mormon Christian.
Well some of the problem is that Jeremy doesn’t tell the whole truth for instance Joseph Smith was not a pedophile because that ends at age 13 and Helen Kimball the 14-year-old he married was offered to Joseph Smith by her father, did you fail to recall that Mary Jesus Christ mother was 14 when she married Joseph, maybe you should read Helen Kimball‘s account of her marriage to Joseph
@@donaldthomas1963 if your answer is that it’s not technically pedophilia because of a specific definition, it’s probably not worth defending.
@@jspam9437 I treat you like you profile name implies SPAM!!!!
Hope you're doing better! I'm recently in this journey. Officially a week!
Thank you.
59:53 what’s wrong with being angry and bitter, when you’ve been lied to about the very foundation of what your life is about.
The cult teaches that anger is a sin. Anger is actually a red flag that your boundaries have been violated.
I hate how the cult tries to shame people into thinking that being bitter and angry as bad. I am bitter and angry. They killed my gay brother in 2003. Every year Utah is the highest in the nation for teen suicide. If you aren’t angry and bitter about that, then there’s something wrong with you.
I ageee to the Pedophilia with 14 years old period. Left the church 20 years ago so blessed with my Relationship to Jesus now a true Christian Praise be to God that all truth in every dark place will be revealed! ❤
This is an amazing video, I had to stop almost halfway to just say how I was blown away about 28:00 into the video and the way Joseph Smith put parts the scroll on the right to the left section and the color match, that really took a lot of copy and pasting when they didn't have computers :) And turning thing upside down etc. So revealing to say the least.
I have read that Solomon Spalding was into writing about wars. Yes, I think it was a smorgasbord of items Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdrey and J.S. put together. I thought it was very interesting how Jeremy Runnells talked about that KJV Bible errors. And how that carries such a big weight of truth because it is so glaring and would really make the BOM being illegitimate truly stand out.
Another thing I HAVE to say is the goodness that Jeremy conveys in his demeanor. When you have people like that pulling things out that make so much sense. You have to think to yourself people this good leaving the church? And you get comments from LDS that say, it is "good that they leave", No, it is not good they leave because what is leaving are some REALLY GOOD PEOPLE that are INNOCENT of Joseph Smith's doings and going ons, So sad !
My heart goes out to Mr Runnells and anyone else who have had the wool pulled over their eyes because of religious people.. I'm thankful that over time some of them do eventually break out of it and see it for what it really is and can hopefully lead other people into doing the same thing..
Great job Mr Runnells and MSP for having him on.. this was an amazing video!
I read the CES letter for the first time this week, and all the things I've shelved are starting to crack the shelf. My brain has been a whirlwind the last few days. I have a question about something that Mormon apologists reference in many Book of Mormon centered arguments and books- specifically the claim that the BOM is made of of too many writing styles to have been written by one man. Do you have any resources on the subject of those linguistic arguments?
Firstly, the burden of proof is on the defenders of the Book of Mormon to demonstrate the clear examples of the alleged “different writing styles” that they claim to exist within the book that could not possibly have been written by one or two people. I think if you take a critical look at their “evidence” you may find it lacking…
One potential explanation for the alleged numerous writing styles in the book can easily begin to be explained by pointing out the numerous books that Smith appears to have drawn inspiration from if not plagiarized outright. For instance, The View of the Hebrews, the Bible, The Late War, and The First Book of Napoleon, just to name a few…
Even if one could demonstrate with 100% certainty that Smith and his followers in fact didn’t write the book themselves, you still have a mountain of devastating evidence in contrary to the truth claims of the LDS church to deal with that no apologists have yet to give rational explanations for.
Edit: slight word change
I think fallen angels really did come to men. The new testament warns about this. I also think a fallen angel came to Muhammad to begin Islam.
That's too bad that he says he didn't come out Christian. The new testament manuscripts weren't really a book of the Dead or something. Just because a fallen angel came to Joseph Smith, why does that mean Christianity is wrong?
Their discussion on priesthood around 44:00 minutes finally made me realize something. Joseph Smith must have subscribe to the protestant concept of The Priesthood of All Believers when he wrote the Book of Mormon. That is one way that the story of Alma makes sense.
I don't know if Jeremy mentioned this in the CES letter regarding Joseph Smith's introduction of polygamy into the Church but the book of Mormon says that David and Solomon's taking of many wives was an abomination. But God seems to have changed his mind in the doctrine and covenants which says I justified my servants. David and Solomon as to the taking of many wives. So Joseph Smith seem to forget about what he wrote in the Book of Mormon when he was feeling his wild oats
The "late war" example was interesting to me.
I studied Egyptian at UCLA. In the 1st century BCE *documents* in Egyptian were written in Demotic. Classic Middle Egyptian and Hieratic were not used.
So the church has had this peep stone for all these years. Why isn't it on public display? Why aren't they using its special powers to get cool visions and stuff?
You hit the nail on the head JR.
I'm really sad thinking that my sweet 9 year old brother that I love so much looks to a man like Joseph Smith as an example knowing the truth about him now. I'm disgusted knowing that I grew up loving this figure in the church, singing songs and glorifying him in movies. How can I get past this?
How can I let my little brother, who is a very strong member in the church, go on believing a lie without feeling sick to my stomach?
That is a great question. All I can say is that you're are not alone in feeling that way.
I wouldn’t bring it up now. If he asks you something about the church then you can bring something up but he’s too little to comprehend all at once.
can I please get a copy of this CES letter. I left the church 2 years ago after being active for 50 years. I would love to read this.
+Robert Coffins it is available in pdf form online
+Robert Coffins cesletter.com/
Kandis Glasgow thanks, i am computer illiterate sort of, don't know how to post links
+Richard Mcginnis happy to provide :)
John Lee
weak bricks? you are a joke, your religion could be compared to a group of people following a story such as the hobbit and believing it were true and when you die you would become one of its characters. the weak bricks, it would seem to me that he is one of the stronger former members, since he found the courage to search for the truth. as for throwing them out, that is not something the church\cult is really willing to do since it usually comes with the loss of that person or family's tithing and voluntary work for the church, not to mention having to make up the lies it takes to turn other members against those who do leave or are excommunicated. in the end though, it just shows how much smarter he is than you are, but then again you believe what you're told to believe, and once the profit has spoken the thinking has been done. correct?
"If you're gonna get divorced, get divorced over a good reason. Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith's religion is not a good reason to get divorced. If one spouse believes JS and the other one doesn't, work on it, figure things out. Religion shouldn't be the reason for divorce." My husband of 6 years is leaving me after I told him I no longer believe in the church. He said there is NOTHING LEFT of our marriage. Even though that was tough to swallow, I am SO glad we are getting divorced! I can live my life FREE of his narrow-thinking and closed-mindedness. Thank you Jeremy for your research and helping me to understand the truth of Mormon church history, rather than the sugar-coated version. I no longer have to live the lie.
One should not underestimate the influence of Lyman Wight--who was on the scene of almost every major event of Joseph's life--in the final decision of a Father and Son in the First Vision story. On June 3, 1831 it is said of Lyman, in a large congregation of the priesthood of a special conference: "So enverloped was he (Lyman) in the spirit that the heavens were opened to his gaze and he saw the Son sitting upon the right hand of the Father." This is the first known account that I know of anyone in the Church having a vision of the Father and the Son and may well have been, ultimately, copied by Joseph as inspiration for the First Vision account. It was on this same day that Joseph laid his hands on Lyman making him the first High Priest of the Church and Lyman in turn laid his hands on Joseph making Joseph the second High Priest. Lyman was in the congregation of Sidney Rigdon for some three years when he gave the idea to Sidney to investigate Joseph Smith and the Church. After the two came to Kirtland, they were baptized after which Lyman was immediately ordained an Elder but not Sidney. Lyman's home was declared the place of Adam-ondi-Ahman and was the only apostle that Joseph personally ordained. There are many other important facts about Lyman which are very significant.
I can't wait to discuss the CES Letter with the Mormon Missionaries that keep coming to talk to me. It's been a very cordial conversation so far and they gave me a copy of The Book of Mormon. I think that was a mistake.
give em hell and hopefully you will help them see the truth
Can someone explain to me the attempts to sell the copyrights of the BoM? Thanks in advance.
I as well would like to know more about that
Listening to this podcast has given me an opportunity to hear Jeremy speak for the first time. I've heard of him before and I've read portions of the CES letter but I hadn't searched him out until now. He seems very sincere in his convictions about the LDS faith and his intentions with the letter. I'm glad that he's taken a diplomatic approach and remained professional about it.
I understand there are many points of church history that don't provide satisfactory answers. However, I don't see these claims as changing the profound doctrines of the church. It is these foundational teachings that provide my testimony of the work and bring the spirit into my life. My faith is in the doctrines of the church and the clarity it gives me of Jesus Christ and His mission. This faith has been increased through the covenants I've made with God. It is further increased as I attend the temple and feel the overwhelming power of the spirit of peace that exists there. Moreover, the daily and constant companionship of the Holy Ghost cements this bond of faith.
If I was to reconcile my faith with what the CES letter questions, I would then need to answer many other questions such as;
If Joseph Smith was a fraud, how did he write such a profoundly inspiring book that brings the spirit to my life? Why would he write in the end of the book Moroni's promise to pray and find out for myself? It seems Joseph Smith wouldn't want us to pray but to just take his word for it.
Why is my life better spiritually if Joseph Smith is a fraud and created this whole book and story?
Why does the spirit rest with me daily and why do I feel it weekly in church and especially in the temple if this is all fake?
What teachings are there that either change me for the worse personally or at least, negatively impact my life?
How have I received answers to so many prayers?
Why do I feel the power of the spirit in greater force attending LDS church meetings than when I've attended other denominations? By the way, my wife grew up in a Pentacostal household and her family still attends. I've been to many of these meetings and I appreciate them. However, the spirit just isn't the same.
Ultimately, how has the gospel so positively affected my life and brought me closer to God if this is all make believe?
Joseph Smith never intended people to just read the Book of Mormon and then take his word for it. We are told to pray about it for a reason. It is to provide us a personal and spiritual witness of the truth. Moroni 10:5 reads; "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."
All of these reasons are why the pursuit of intellectual explanations to everything in church history we don't understand really doesn't matter much to me. Of course it would be nice to have answers to the legitimate concerns mentioned but, having these answers would only further my faith in the work because we would then fully understand what we must speculate heavily upon right now.
I wish Jeremy well on his journey in life even though I disagree with is positions.
Jeremy is my Hero 😊
9:01 The answer to the riddle of J. Smith not remembering is that J. Smith did not actually write the BOM; Sidney Rigdon (the angel of light) actually wrote (plagiarized) the BOM. I am pretty sure that J. Smith never actually read the BOM himself. Well, he really only had about a 3rd grade education. J. Smith was the front man. Sidney Rigdon was the author. Oliver Cowdrey was the editor. Martin Harris financed the printing. Most of the witnesses were J. Smiths cousins, father, brother... etc.
MS Spaulding Theory podcast is interesting also
I would love to see a one on one debate with Jeremy Runnells and The Prophet of the Mormon church...That would be revealing.
It's interesting that Mormons can spot one or two things "wrong" with what Jefemy said/wrote, but Joseph Smith gets infinite passes on mistakes.
It would be great to have a list of questions relating to these topics with a list of Mormon sources that provide the answer. A little worksheet for missionaries. 😊
MY ALL TIME FAVORITE MORMAN STORIES SERIES EVER....so far. But WILL BE VERY HARD TO BEAT. #TwoWonderfulGentlemen
For years I had doubts about many of Jeremy's discoveries. I am grateful for the research and clarity he presents in the CES Letter. As is known, the temple and the teachings of Christian churches, teaches of this being called Satan. From the Aramaic language of Jesus, satan refers to one who misleads or leads someone astray. From the recorded words of Jesus in the Bible, I don't find Jesus referring to satan as a personage. I would like Jeremy's perceptions on this topic.
I came out of the church, with the help off the Tanners in 1986 . I read a lot off their books. Like “Mormonism shadows or reality “ I read the whole book.
I had read the Book of Mormon about 25 times or more.
Tanners don't provide objektive facts. You should reconsider your decIition.
Jeremy and John nailed it.
The truth has nothing to fear from investigation. Investigation should be welcomed. I started questioning my religious beliefs, and looked in to what the LDS church believed/taught. All I found was cover ups, white washing, interpretations, foul beliefs, and apologetics. This is not what I wanted to find. Sad that I fell for it for so many years, and gave so much time, and money to a false belief system. I would urge any Mormon to look at what is taught, and ask yourself, why do we use logic, and reason in every part of our lives, except when it comes to our religious beliefs? Why do we toss aside reason and accept a rock in a hat? Really?
Where can I find the CES letter so I can read it for myself ?
First, I was Mormon, I had a strong testimony. i just needed to say something really quick. Simply, Mormonism is different from biblical Christianity. We know this now, BUT The Lord still lives. Mormons looking at these videos have faith in Christianity. God has been with you this whole time and now you have something unforgettable to share.. Believe in Jesus the God of Grace. . When He died we became saved. Read the bible. He blessed us out of Mormonism to Finally KNOW Him. You've been staring at the apple, now you can taste that apple. Experience Him as the I AM. God Bless!
Samuel Jackson plenty of Mormons turned atheists watch these videos too, including me.
The issue I have with this is Christianity has flaws and inaccuracies as well. No way to walk out of the “Mormon cave” to then hide into another religions “cave”
Open your mind
What a crock. It's all made up. ALL of it. Rising from the DEAD. Talking snakes ??? COME ON !!
This is exactly how I’m feel right now realizing growing up in the church is a scam. But I already feel closer to Him and truly feel like he has led me out which I’m so thankful for but also scared haha
Jeremy ended with a marvelous point that I just want to phrase differently.
Even if FAIR's arguments satisfied every claim, are those arguments plain & precious?
The Book of Mormon touts a God who can commune with the common & strengthen the weak. He is, by his very nature, incompatible with an institution such as FAIR.
Great point. God seems to be hiding in small nooks and crevices these days that only gold medalists of mental gymnastics can find. I wonder where he will hide next.
Richard Holmes I'm flattered that you're watching every video I've ever commented on, but I'd appreciate it if you'd actually comment about the topic of the thread you're replying too.
That said, I watched the video you wanted us to watch, and the short version is that they just lie and make up the dead sea scroll translation to match the Book of Mormon text, which you would know if you had bothered to fact check it.
Watch that video again, and this time use the side-by-side view of the Bible and the Dead sea scroll translation, and you'll see that the text the video *claims* is in the dead sea scroll often isn't there. So not only is your point wrong, but it further damages your credibility because you believed a youtuber blindly rather than bothering to check their facts.
dss.collections.imj.org.il/chapters_pg
Richard Holmes video's 72 min long dude. Give a quote, a timestamp, a link... something. You can't just say "something in this video is inaccurate" and expect me to take you seriously.
Richard Holmes thank you for failing to point out any cogent points.
The Egyptians cannot resurrect people, but if you gave me a quote or timestamp, I might have a clue what you are trying to say to be able to clarify.
"the whole video is crap." What a detailed analysis. I was wrong to doubt you.
Richard Holmes wow. Just wow.
1:09:38 Amen!
askreality.com doesn't seem to exist anymore. Anyone have an idea about this?
Can someone clarify: was the rock he used in the hat one that he found on his property in 1821, or was it the same one he used for treasure hunting? Or both?
Both, yes
Debunking the LDS assertions is very easy. It is amazing to me how so many people have been caught up into this distortion of Christianity in these modern times when information is so readily available to anyone. All the classic aspects of cultic control are working here: mental isolation from outsiders, placing faith in just the leadership, lack of openness to scrutiny, inability to provide objective evidence to criticism, busyness to involve all the time and energy of the converts, and many others. For a religion that is only about 200 years old, it has seemed to reach it's natural demise imploding on it's own deficiencies to explain the truth. While classic Christianity, which is now about 2,000 years old, just keeps motoring on in spite of every attempt to isolate and suppress it. Christianity is so open to inspection and scrutiny, and while it has experienced internal fractures, has stood the test of time.
How do I communicate with you. Please let me know.
I would REALLY like to know what people who have left the church attribute spiritual experiences or confirmations of the holy ghost to?
Feelings and emotions maybe?
How about members of other churches having spiritual experiences?
We tend to think that all of these spiritual confirmations are exclusive to our church. Off course you are going to feel good about let’s say the BofM because it talks about god but so other religious books. How many religious leaders taught and wrote amazing spiritual things but ended up being a fraud? Think it out.
I recommend numerous sources of scholarly study and research to address this question, since you are curious. You can find sources at your local university library under the subject headings "Psychology of religion" and "anthropology of spirituality". There has been some interesting, objective research done on this topic, despite the challenges of researching it.
One finding that I find quite intriguing is how common across world cultures claims of spiritual experiences are and how much they share, despite vastly different religious beliefs between those cultures. Some research in neuropsychology seems to point to the activation of a specific region of (if I remember correctly) the left prefrontal cortex of the brain during spiritual experiences where people report feeling a "presence". In one empirical experiment, this specific brain region was artificially activated using electromagnets and people (regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof) described feeling a "divine presence" wash over them, "spiritual euphoria" or (ahem) an "alien (as in extraterrestrial) presence."
It seems very possible, if nor probable, that our species has evolved this neurochemical ability to have these experiences. Why? Right now we can only speculate that perhaps it provides some therapeutic mental health advantage or other advantage to us, perhaps to guard against stress or mental dysfunction.
I hope this helps answer your question.
For the record, I am a neutral party when it comes to the LDS church.
Heartburn
The Holy Ghost isn't exclusively within the Mormon church. As for other spiritual experiences, Satan can and does present himself as an angel to lead away the faithful. Our hearts and feelings are deceptive. Look to the words of Christ for truth.
@@ems7623 because i truly believe it doesn't have to be exclusely about religion . rather a level of higher consciousness that we feel when we truly and earnestly seek pureness from the source. When we seek goodness and light I belive it manifests in those feelings. often attributed to faith based practices whether religious or not. I have been a member of a different church, also lds, have practiced meditation purely with good intentions and have felt somewhat and had somewhat similar feelings of experience throughout all
A problem I have had for some time in trying to explain how the Book of Mormon came into existence is that, on the one hand we state that the BofM is a "tight" translation, meaning that JS saw specific words on his seer stone which he repeated to the scribe and those words purportedly did not disappear until the scribe recorded them correctly. At the same time evidence is presented for a "loose" translation, meaning that JS used a variety of sources (such as the King James Bible) available to him to translate the BofM. Aren't these two possibilities mutually exclusive? Another alternative, of course, is that JS and/or someone else wrote the BofM. Based on the limited evidence that is available, I have personally concluded that there was a spirit source for the BofM who had access to the sources supposedly available to JS. I know, far out. But I have yet to hear or read of a better explanation.
Wouldn't you still have the problem of why a spirit source would use the KJV hundreds of years before it was ever written? If the spirit source has access to God, then why would he rely on a fallible human copy of the KJV?
L. Ron Hubbard was a re-mixer too. Scam artists 😢😢
I believe there is no one source which Joseph Smith plagiarized, because he took some from many sources around him. Otherwise it would be too simple to dismiss.
I don't know why in listening to this it hit me.... Sylvia Sessions is my Great Great Great Aunt. Which Makes Joseph my Uncle. I'm a bit squiked out right now.
I have studied cults for a good number of years, and I have distilled my own definition in the following manner: (1) Total obedience to the leadership--no disagreements allowed; (2) Totally murky (non-transparent) financial system; (3) An extreme amount of social pressure to maintain membership in the cult. This has led me to the conclusion that the Mormon Church is as much a cult as the Jehovah's Witnesses or other such arcane belief systems. From my own experience those members of the family who have deviated in any way from the correlated gospel are looked upon as being somewhat quirky or downright dangerous, and they are to be shunned lest they "infect" other family members with their opinions. One cannot just up and leave Mormonism (sorry, Dr. Nelson, I look on the word Mormon as being totally legitimate). As my dear sister told me, one has to request to have their name removed. My response was that to take the time to communicate, plus the paper, envelope and stamp to do it would give validity to the institution. I told her I just graduated from it. Despite that, I was active in the music program in my ward for over 20 years, this despite letting the bishop know that I was not a believer. He was a wonderful man, and his response was that he wanted good music, and we could just agree to disagree. (That ward, by the way, was populated with a large number of highly educated people, and in many private conversations several of them let me know that they didn't believe it either, but that it was a good social outlet. I heartily agree).
"I don't want to worship a God that's playing games." Is anybody writing this stuff down?
These two CRACK ME UP!! If it wasn't so sad.
Other than the DNA issue, the egregious anthropological, archaeological, natural history problem with the BOM is that the BOM claims there was an iron age in the Americas which of course did not happen in pre-Columbia Americas; not until after 1600 when the Europeans brought it here.
The BOM gets everything wrong; the plants, the animals, the metallurgy, the geography, the linguistics, the anthropology... all of it.
At 2:10 a "distillation" of Mormonism Shadow or Reality? Seriously? It's more like a distillation of the Changing World of Mormonism (which is a condensed version of Mormonism - Shadow or Reality). I purchased my version in the 1990's but the most recent version can be found on their website: www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/mormonismshadoworreality_ub001.htm
and i still hear people trying to make John Dehlin out to be this goodie-good active Mormon who just has some questions. they try to paint him as a guy with a testimony who wants to stay in the church, and that the church is tyrannical because his leaders have asked him to leave or be ex'd. Whats wrong with kicking someone out of any established organization if that person stands in complete opposition to the established tenants of that organization?!?!
i was reading earlier this week about a scientist and professor who publicly spoke about how man made global warming isn't as big of a threat as is parroted, so their university departments and organizational affiliations wrote them letters and excommunicated them from being able to walk around with the badge representing them, for the scientist is advocating the opposite of what they believed. religion as much as an "darwin centered" organization should be able to kick someone out who is acting to dismantle their theory or belief.
some of these astute and pompous academics act like children when someone like Dehlin is about to be excommunicated. everyone knows that Dehlin doesn't believe a single lick of Mormon doctrine, and in fact advocates against it.
@ about the 50 minute mark when they're discussing polygamy - this should just be called servile marriage. (a marriage in exchange for some type of goods when the woman or child has no say in the matter) 1. coercion 2. pedophilia 3. the total lack of respect for what any of these females truly wanted (asking their husbands, threatening them and their family, then of course rape because it's not consent if they're only having sex bc they're afraid of the guy) - These sickening patriarchal power-grabs make me sad for all those women. What a sicko!!! Control. control. control.
Hello Jesus mother was 14 when she married Joseph, also Pedophilia ends at 13 and Helen Kimball was offered to Joseph Smith by her father maybe you should read her account of what happened
So true, Ms Munk. The people who argue that it was the custom are very wrong. It was only in rural areas that people married so dangerously young, and old men marrying children was always seen as disgusting. But even if it was the custom, so what? If Joseph Smith was in touch with a moral God, the instructions he received ought to have been decent at least!
@@donaldthomas1963 What does it matter who ‘offered’ the girl? It’s paedophilia, and if you don’t think so you have been dangerously misled!