There exists a minority interpretation of Eve's creation out of Adam (only a few old testament scholars are confirmed to hold this view, though there may be more in number than I know). According to this interpretation, Eve was not built out of Adam's rib during some sleep of anaesthesia as it is popularly translated & interpreted by non-academics, but rather Adam was placed in a visionary state (the correct interpretation of his "falling into a deep sleep"), and in the vision he was cut in half, and out of this half Eve was formed. The argument put forward by the old testament scholar John Walton is that the word usually translated "rib" or "side" elsewhere in the old testament texts refer to A SIDE OF A DUPLICATE OR PAIRED SYMMETRICAL OBJECT. This ties in with themes from the IndoEuropean myth: 1. Adam prior to Eve's creation though not technically or obviously androgynous, does for the sake of the story's plot have the yet-to-be-created Feminine within his body 2. In this vision Adam sees, Eve is made from his body by being cut longitudinally in a symmetrical HALF, evoking the TWINSHIP THEME from the IndoEuropean myth.
Are you looking through my notes? You are taking 4 years of my obsessions and expanding on them! Seriously though, I truly believe there was something in the past that was a root for all of these myths/religions and the way you trace them back is really well done. You are doing an excellent job and thank you for all your time and effort.
@@shaggyrandy1264 I actually have the original version of that beside me right now! I'm pondering re-reading it, I do remember it was a tough read but interesting
I'm a junior anthropologist and theologian. I say junior because I couldn't continue following doctrine on either side of my studies. This is what I've been looking for for a long time. Folklore, oral history, has critical elements that is far more reliable than written history. You deserve far more recognition. Thank you. I'm opening old notes that I haven't read for more than two decades. Things are coming together where once I had dead ends.
I love this channel ❤️ My daughter studied Sanskrit from age 4 at school and did a GCSE at age 14, she also studied Latin, Ancient Greek, Classics reading the Mahabharata and the Illiad as a kid, she loved it... Now the Mahabharata had some stuff which wasnt exactly PG! If people get their kids interested in tgese subjects at a young age they will take to it. She also studied Irish Gaelic.
I’m happy to have found your channel. It seems like you’ll have answers to a lot of questions I have. This video was excellent. Thank you so much for your work, and for making it free on UA-cam! P.s. You kinda sound like Taika Waititi as Korg lol
I am obsessed with all mythologies. Especially Norse/Celtic. I have randomly stumbled across a couple of your videos. Can't believe I haven't seen you sooner. Subscribed now. I absolutely love your voice. Your stories are excellently narrated!
I have been spending so much time trying to discover this information. Thank you so much for posting this and continuing your research. I appreciate it.
Very interesting. I'm a Persian speaker. I haven't read Bundahish, but have partly read Shahname which is heavily inspired by ancient Persian myths. The story has fascinating similarities to the story of Feridon who killed Azhidehak/Zahhak; an usurper of the thrown with serpents on his shoulders who fed on people's brains. The main reason Feridon rebelled against the serpent is that he had killed the sacred cow (Gov-e-barmaye) who had nursed Feridon with its milk when he had been abandoned by his mother to be spared. After Feridon became the King, his reign was over all the seven kingdoms, later distributed between his three sons Salm, Tur and Iraj. Oh, I forgot to mention that the person who helped Feridon to beat Azhidehak was not a stone god, but a blacksmith called Kave whose sons were killed and their brains eaten by the serpents.
Thank you, it was a challenge, but I am quite proud of what I managed to fit in and I haven’t seen another like it. So thank you for your kind words, they are very much appreciated.
the lighting is spectacular, but that automated gate... wheeeeeeew. LOVE your overwhelmingly knowledgeable perspective from which you're so gregariously flowing this... patience of knowing.. dunno how else to describe it, but gawddamn, your autogate+autogain is making my ptsd use words its not supposed to at work. i'm sure this is a very singular issue. so, please, don't spend money to change a THING if it's just me, but if there are other folks out there with strategies for listening through these issues (i'd just read but memory kinda... disappears from text after an hour or so) i would be so grateful. not at all the only source i encounter this issue with, but i aint got time to edit the audio on stuff anymore now that i can actually like.. go out in public and work.
Fascinating work, Jon White! I've been an ancient-ancient history nerd since childhood, and your videos bring so much into focus for me. It's so interesting to see how humankind has evolved, culturally, spiritually and psychologically, from our Neolithic origins, into what we are today. Watching your videos, I keep having Aha! moments, where the results of your research resonate with thoughts and intuitions I've had over my 76 years of trying to understand what makes us tick as human beings on this planet.
These videos are fascinating, I really enjoy them! You're about what I picture a Viking to look like, with a lovely narrator voice, and I can think of no better way of listening to mythology :D
Another great video. Thank you. This is extremely interesting. Similar myths are found throughout the American continent. In the Maya creation myth we find the twin brothers heroes, Hunahpu and Xbalanque, the collapse of the sky and the deluge, the slaying of the earth crocodile, the raising of the sky and the erection of the five World Trees, the maize god or 'first father', the defeating of deities of Thunder and Lightning, etcetera. Have you read Popol Vuh?
@@Crecganford I didn't know about it either. It was my 13 y/o son who told me about it when he saw that I was watching your video. Some time ago my wife and I gave him a copy of the Popol Vuh because he likes to learn about mythology from different parts of the world. Now he has subscribed to your channel too. :)
The Popol Vuh, at least as we know it, was writted by a catholical friar: Francisco de Xerez. Based on an old 100% maya codex? Perhaps. But many ideas seem to be influenced by the christian-catholic religion. Hence the reason for the similarities.
1) I know this video is old, so I doubt you'll see this, but I just want to start with, your videos are fascinating and this is simply where I'm at while binge watching your Uploads playlist. Lol. Can't wait to see more. 2) I know you have an opinion about Christians, and that's totally fine. As a Christian, I wish other Christians would separate their convictions from other people's opinions. I appreciate your approach in this video to an understandably sensitive topic, but I also know the reason is because of the hate comments people tend to leave. I hate those, and I'm so sorry. I wish you didn't have to deal with it, because I'd love to hear you go into more detail about the similarities between Genisis and other culture's myths. I will be checking out your other video on it as well. Keep up the great work.
You have gathered such a wealth of knowledge, and your ability to contextualize and distill this information for our education and use is invaluable. My question is, do you think that the apparent origin in PIE religion is due to the early use of written language, when theoretically it could have had a genesis in an earlier tongue or existed at the same time as PIE in other unwritten but contemporaneous languages?
Awesome video, these elements can also be seen in later scripts of 1010 AD, "Shahnameh" by Ferdowsi, where "Freidon", the warrior figure builds an army that is made from the sacrifice of one out of two brothers (twin), to fight the three-headed serpent king "Zhahhak". Please cover the mythological connections of proto-Indo-European beliefs in "Shahnameh" as well.
I made a few videos following this about Indo-European Religion and Culture, I have an Indo-European Playlist which should guide you through all the videos.
The Eddas were written in the 13th century, after Christianity had sacked their culture. It's a but unfair to assume to story was original and unaffected by Christians. It's kinda assumed the Eddas had a Christian re-write, and we dont actually have any texts of their mythos beforehand. Check out "Overly Sarcastic Productions" on UA-cam. 🤙🏼
@@Crecganford 😂 sorry, this was the first of your vids I watched; promise to do so next time. They cover a slightly different, but overlapping subject matter, so I wouldn't consider them "competition." (You may like them as well.. and they've done collabs..) Nice vid, btw. Thanks for not saying aliens. ;)
I like these videos for the fascinating insight into human history but also inspiration for the creation story of my fantasy world that I am creating. Keep it up.
Very good material, as always. When I saw the Chinese myth of Pan Gu in the "genealogical tree", I was hoping you would talk about it too. I know you focus on indo-european mythology, but it would be interesting to know how the Chinese myth aligns with these myths. Further, I remember the Aztec myth of creation is VERY similar to the Babilonian. A video comparing them would be very interesting too.
I've seen many of your videos, and I love them. In many of them the sound is not good even when you evidently have a magnificent microphone. I assume that the problem is on the settings, that are adjusted extremely sensible and affect the quality of the recording.
In Vedic Indian mythology there is another guy Yama apart from the sacrificed purusha. Yama was the first man to die and his twin Yaami grieved for him as she wanted to marry him. Tears became Yamuna river. Yama is also god of death for Hindus.
I like learning, but you are something else!!! If there are any interesting topics you personally enjoy I would absolutely love to know more about it!!!
Great job, my congratulations and thank you ! Listening to the old norse creation myth i noticed the name Trito and for me, as a Greek, this name sounds familiar. Athena, the virgin warrior goddess, daughter and probably the first child of Zeus, has another name "Tritogeneia", which means (from) the third genus. There are many speculations, even in the ancient times, about this name's origins but nothing solid. There was a place in Crete as well, written in a linear B tablet, with the name "ti-ri-to" = "Trito". I think the old myths found some weird ways to survine in the greek mythology. Thank you again!
Coming from an abrahahmic and heavily Afro cultured background we are often told mostly of western semitic culture basics like creations and such and some eastern hamitic as we call them based on our Noah story, but we are almost NEVER given information on the Indo European and other more Japhetic cultures and it's very hard to find objective sources and channels that put them succinctly, giving us much ignorance for lack of available knowledge on the upper Asian and Indo people's lives and world and your channel has helped me personally with my studies on the major ethnic groups, languages, and geographical kingdoms of the sons of humanity as I search to understand and appreciate them based on our biblical understanding via the table of nations. Keep providing such undeniably endless value you are teaching many people and informing them on things that should be talked about MORE and are sorely misunderstood.
Jon, great work on this series of videos on the proto-Indo-European myth and its current descendants. That series of videos were the first by you I saw, and they were quite helpful. Have been interested for years in how to possibly reconstruct pre-Roman myths of peoples from current Portuguese territory and never quite knew how to aside just collecting any story which has a pre-medieval setting attributed to it or to use any similarity or link to surviving mythologies to just retro-engineer a myth and those always seemed too artificial to me and like something was missing. Your wide synthesis of scholarship on reconstructions really made something "click" for me. After that, some southern Portuguese legends on a giant snake atacking cattle and fighting a bull and a town being build there, western Iberian variants on Her(a)cules and Geryon and stories on two Hercules all the sudden seem much more mythically rich. Anyhow, keep up the great work on the channel.
Another excellent video.Jon. Even though i know most of the stories you tell or at least the basis of them.i love the way you retell them my friend.please keep up the great work it is much appreciated
Big fan of the channel! Love the video but was confused about the connection between Tiamat and Behemoth. Do the names have connections to each other in some way or is there a separate reason why the two are linked? Regardless, keep up the great work!
That is a good question, and to answer it properly needs a good video, and that is something I am working on as it has many implications for those who are Abrahamic in their faith.
Can't recall what I watched that triggered the algorithm to suggest this vid, but it's doing something right. Very interesting, and now have a new book to read.
If you had to choose which Proto-Indo-European Mythology is your favorite, which one would you choose? I personally enjoy Zoroastrian but Irish-Celtic is also fascinating and has inspired worldbuilding I've done; However, I enjoy PIE Mythology the most.
That’s a great question, and I have to say because of the quantity of Old Norse Myth, then that would be my first choice. However the root myths of PIE are the most fascinating.
12:06. Is there any clue if a 3-aspect god in the Prose Edda was Catholic influenced? I recall the Eddas were written down some time after Christianisation of the region.
The Prose Edda definitely has Christian bias and so must be approached with caution, the Poetic Edda less so but it is there. But to say if that specific reference is, is difficult to prove.
I'm a firm believe every creation myth is but a different retelling of the same event, probably some cosmic event that the ancient people witnessed millenia ago. If we could group up together all of the different versions of the story, find common ground but also noticing the differences between each and every version, we probably could figure out what really happened!
I have been looking trough your indoeuropean mithology videos I several time you include Babylonian and Hebrew myths... Arent those Semitic lenguages ? How would that prove continuity of the myths trough diferent language familys ?
Great question, and there are a number of ways which we collect data to place within a phylogenetic process to understand the likihood of a myth dispersing to other places. This includes known cultural integrations, DNA, linguistic evolution, mythemes or particular phrases used consistantly within the stories, archaeological evidence etc. And so perhaps the most consistent example used is where we know Indo-Europeans travelled through the Near East and into Africa as we see their myths in there, along with their DNA (i.e. the cattle raiding myths of the San people).
Humans had a need to explain nature..what happens around us...probably way before writing. This need may explain why so many believe false social media 'stories' about well everything..politics..UFOS big foot..etc etc .we just love stories so long as they have a 'Myth' quality The crazier..the better it is spread.
It's been a while but I seem to recall that there are several parallels between Sumerian myth and the Popol Vuh of the Maya, the hero twin brothers being among the most prominent.
the part about the king being willing to sacrifice himself to save his people made me think of the last king of the Mittani who sacrificed himself and his army to the Assyrians so his people could flee to India.
Yes, certainly we see this in North America, where three distinct waves of migration happened at the last glacial maximum, and there maybe a similar pattern in Oceania and Australia, although I'm less well versed in the anthropology here.
I really love that this stuff is talked about so much. Every time I see a new channel/person, I get happier. I'm trying to work out all the similarities and group all the similar gods in an attempt to make a set of gods for my fiction that represents a bunch of different mythologies. It may be too big of an undertaking, though. I just don't want to default to Greek and Roman. That's where my mind seems to drift. And Mesopotamian.
This may be interesting to you. As far as my limited knowledge goes, I am of the opinion *the migration of Vedic Aryans (3400-1500 BCE) from North West India to Europe and Eurasia of the Druhyu tribes, the Alinas, the Anus etc resulted in the settlement of the Celts and Gauls, Germans, Balts, Hittites and the Zarathustra's (Iranians).* Remnants of these tribes in India were absorbed into the Bharat clan/Puru (Kurus and Panchalas) mainstream. The Druids/Celts followed practices like idol worship, worship of multiple gods, food offerings in worship, philosophy of non destruction of soul, belief in rebirth after death, worship of ancestors, etc. Julius Caesar, while describing them, mentions that they were experts in Religion, Philosophy and Astronomy, and they were doing research in, debating and interpreting, those fields. This is similar to the way Upanishads, Hindu scriptures were formed through debates, discussions and interpretation of Vedas. *The Druids chanted something similar to Vedas. Vedas were not written, but orally transmitted. Similarly the Druids did not keep a written record of the chanting. They did not read out from books. Those who chanted Vedas were under strict regulations and disciplines; the Druids also followed strict codes of conduct. Like this, the Druids can be compared to Indian priests who follow Vedic tradition in many ways.* Apart from this, when Greeks and Romans brought Celts under their rule, they changed the Celtic names. They changed the names of places and people to Greek and Latin and gave new interpretations. Greeks had a general tendency to give their own names in Greek to the names of non-Greek people and places. Therefore, we can imagine the havoc they had done to Celtic names, whose culture they wanted to wipe out completely. History shows the oppressive nature and sense of superiority of the Greeks, while dealing with their subjects. This resulted in concealing historical evidence. Not only that, many Celtic gods were brought into the Greek fold with new names and new dressing! Let us remember that the greatly praised Greek culture is a borrowed one! When Greek dominance faded, the Celts were prevented by Christianity from continuing with their traditional Celtic practices and customs. Christianity showed keen interest in wiping them out totally. Namaste.
Ok, In the Kayin ethnics of Burma, there's a story about a gaint man named An Gun Ja Wa, who's so strong that the king assassinated him. From his body, the air and soil were born. But this has many plot holes of course. Where were men living without air nor soil?
OMG I am such a nerd! I wrote an prize-winning essay about Indo-European and the horse at uni citing David Anthony a lot, and I have that book by him! Also it's interesting about the god being cut into pieces, similar to Osiris in Egyptian mythology .and the the Romulus/ Remus drama. annoying questions: do you reckon 'mannus' is the cognate of 'man'?
Yes, Manu is cognate with man, the first man, as it relates to Yemo (twin) and Trito (third). So from a poetry and linguistic perspective it really is the most natural of fits.
Man in PIE is gHomon: made of dirt. Deriving from degHom: Earth, dirt. This coincides with almost all creation myths in which mankind was made from dirt or mud by a god or gods.
I'm originally an Indian Bengali, one of the eastern most IE (also me being upper caste and my look, I've relatively more genetic lineage to IE, I reckon). In our language, "maanush" means a person or a human, and generally used more to refer to a man. That's probably the closest cognate of "mannus" in 2023. "maanus" or "maanas" or its cousin words like "maanav", etc. in Hindi or other North Indian languages (Sanskritic) or maybe something similar in Sanskrit, are used for similar reasons.
You should talk about the Ulster Cycle particularly the Tain Bo Cuilgne, The Cattle Raid of Coolney staring Cu Cuthullain, the Hound of Cullen, earlier known as Sentana.
Great video! I am fascinated with European mythology, but recently I have become interested in Aztec mythology and I do not think it gets the attention it deserves. Do you think there are any similarities between Hesiod’s ‘Ages of Man’ and the Aztec ‘Five Suns’ or are there mainly differences? Another way of asking the question is are there any commonalities between Mexica (Aztec) cosmology and/or accounts of early civilization with Hesiod's accounts? Greek mythology is very popular, and Hesiod was one of the best ancient writers who documented a lot of mythological conceptions within ancient Greek society. One of the most important and interested mythological frameworks is the so called ‘Ages of Man’ concept. The Ages of Man are the historical stages of human existence according to Greek mythology and its subsequent Roman interpretation. Both Hesiod (and later Ovid with his four ages) offered accounts of the successive ages of humanity, which tend to progress from an original, long-gone age in which humans enjoyed a nearly divine existence to the current age of the writer, in which humans are beset by innumerable pains and evils. In the two accounts that survive from Ancient Greece and Rome, this degradation of the human condition over time is indicated symbolically with metals of successively decreasing value (but increasing hardness). The Greek poet Hesiod (between 750 and 650 BC), in his poem ‘Works and Days’ (lines 109-201) records this. His list is: * Golden Age - The Golden Age is the only age that falls within the rule of Cronus. Created by the immortals who live on Olympus, these humans were said to live among the gods and freely mingled with them. Peace and harmony prevailed during this age. Humans did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance. They lived to very old age but with a youthful appearance and eventually died peacefully. Their spirits live on as "guardians". Plato in Cratylus (397e) recounts the golden race of men who came first. He clarifies that Hesiod did not mean men literally made of gold, but good and noble. He describes these men as daemons upon the earth. Since δαίμονες (daimones) is derived from δαήμονες (daēmones, meaning knowing or wise), they are beneficent, preventing ills, and guardians of mortals. * Silver Age - The Silver Age and every age that follows fall within the rule of Cronus's successor and son, Zeus. Men in the Silver age lived for one hundred years under the dominion of their mothers. They lived only a short time as grown adults, and spent that time in strife with one another. During this Age men refused to worship the gods and Zeus destroyed them for their impiety. After death, humans of this age became "blessed spirits" of the underworld. * Bronze Age - Men of the Bronze Age were hardened and tough, as war was their purpose and passion. Zeus created these humans out of ash tree. Their armor was forged of bronze, as were their homes, and tools. The men of this Age were undone by their own violent ways and left no named spirits; instead, they dwell in the "dark house of Hades". This Age came to an end with the flood of Deucalion. * Heroic Age - The Heroic Age is the one age that does not correspond with any metal. It is also the only age that improves upon the age it follows. It was the heroes of this Age who fought at Thebes and Troy. This race of humans died and went to Elysium. * Iron Age - Hesiod finds himself in the Iron Age. During this age, humans live an existence of toil and misery. Children dishonor their parents, brother fights with brother, and the social contract between guest and host (xenia) is forgotten. During this age, might makes right, and bad men use lies to be thought good. At the height of this age, humans no longer feel shame or indignation at wrongdoing; babies will be born with gray hair and the gods will have completely forsaken humanity: "there will be no help against evil." The idea that mankind’s history is one of regress rather than of progress has been seen as central to the classical outlook on life. The famous historian of ideas, Arthur O. Lovejoy documents this phenomenon reflected in Greek and Roman mythology within his work titled *’Primitivism and related ideas in antiquity’* (1935). He distinguishes between chronological primitivism, cultural primitivism, soft primitivism, and hard primitivism. Hesiod also appears to document a “progressive” view of human history in his tale of the myth of Prometheus which stands in fascinating contrast to the “regressive” Ages of Man. Anyway, with all that said about the Hesiodic Ages of Man, I was expanding my research in other cultures mythology, and I read about a concept within Mexica (Aztec) Mythology (and cosmology) called the ‘Five Suns’. These indigenous people’s mythological views were that the world has gone through five distinct cycles of creation and destruction, with the current era being the fifth. It is primarily derived from a combination of myths, cosmologies, and eschatological beliefs that were originally held by pre-Columbian peoples in the Mesoamerican region, including central Mexico, and it is part of a larger mythology of Fifth World or Fifth Sun beliefs. It seems that there is a fundamental similarity between the Hesiodic Greek Ages of Man and Mexica (Aztec) Five Suns as both have five ages of man (with both seeming to be regressive) and in both modern man is in the fifth age. They also seem to be similar in assuming cyclical time. However, I am not an expert on Mexica (Aztec) Mythology and Cosmology and that I am looking for people who are more educated than me to educate and inform me whether I am correct in my assumptive assessment. So, can we compare and contrast Mexica (Aztec) cosmology and/or accounts of early civilization with Hesiod's accounts (Ages of Man and maybe even perhaps the myth of Prometheus)? Are there any commonalities (as I suspect), or only differences?
After being obsessed with the politics around Donald Trump since the US mid-terms and their disastrous finale on 5th November I'm back to continue trekking through Crecganford. My first question is: what is the sacred root from which Trito made the sacrificial drink? This sounds like a psychotropic used by shamans to connect with the spirit world. Do we have a hypothesis as to which actual plant is implied?
@@Crecganford Are there any known psychotropic plants in the Russian Steppes region where the PIE originated? That would be the most obvious place to look.
Hi Jon, I always wondered how the Greec creation with fits in the Indo European creation. There is no sacrifice of a Primordial being. Gaia just came out of Chaos. When Uranus got castrated, the world was already formed. Can Kronos/Saturn be compared with Buri or Borr?
That is a great question, and the links are there, but a generation removed. In effect the cultural replacement and neighbouring influence diluted it. I can produce a video about it as I have consider it before.
John, Egyptian Seth (Setekh) cut Osiris (Usir) into pieces which are life giving. Could this myth have parallels with the Proto Indo-European creation myths? Ty, Astronomuse
@@Crecganford Looking forward to the video, interested to hear your ideas. I've been delving into a myriad of myths and stories during the process of working on a project concerning the Dendera Zodiac of Egypt. Your work is very helpful to fellow scholars and story lovers. The Cosmic Hunt video is a fave.
If Trito retrieves cattle from "mountains", then those "mountains" were the Caucasus? Would the "dragon serpent" who stole the cattle represent some population with whom the PIEs were in contact & conflict, perhaps hunter-gatherers or farmers of the Caucasus or Fertile Crescent?
I'm curious, but you didn't mention it: Does the story of Cain and Abel, and the subsequent birth of Seth, fit into the creation myth. It seems like Cain and Abel would be analogues to Manus and Yemo, with Seth coming later as Trito.
Cain and Abel are very interesting, but when it comes down to details it is difficult to link them even if on the surface they look similar. I will make a video about this in the coming months though as it is often requested. Thank you so much for watching and supporting the channel through your comments, I appreciate it.
Would you say that, in this telling of the myth, that Dyeus Phter is darkness? In other words, Manus sacrifices Yemo to Dyeus Phter, aka darkness? Also, what happens to the bovine? Do you see it as, immediately being recognized as Taurus the constellation, or something? As always, thanks for the great research data.
Hey there, love your channel and all the meticulous research, as I mentioned the other day. So I’ve been thinking about the chaoskampf myth and the related creation myths, and how sometimes the dragon-slaying is separate from the creation myth (as seems to be the case with the PIE setup) and sometimes the sacrificed twin becomes the dragon (Tiamat, most notably). Ymir represents chaos, like Tiamat, and from both are made the world. Now. You mentioned there’s no cattle stealing in Norse myth, but given that the cattle stealing is also the dragon slaying, and considering that Jormungand and Vrirtra and other such chaos dragons hold back (steal) the waters of the ocean or the outer ocean, and release a flood when slain - I wonder if the flood release and the cattle return aren’t equivalent. The point is fertility and prosperity; stealing the cattle is akin to a drought, perhaps. Releasing the pent up waters and bringing back the cattle could be similar. So Thor slaying Jormungandr in conjunction with the releasing of his tail could be similar. I think a lot of what used to be creation myth ideas worked their way into Ragnarok, because Ragnarok is a remaking or recreation of the world. Curious to hear your thoughts. I haven’t watched the rest of this playlist yet so apologies if you get to this. I’m definitely going to finish it though, it’s fabulous! Cheers friend
The tale of Thor fishing for the Midgard serpent is infact a reflex of the cattle raiding myth... Thor kills cattle, catches serpent with cattle, then kills giants. The Ragnarok event I feel is the equivalent of the flood event in older myths. But to explain that in a text reply will be futile unless I could write a book. So perhaps I should do a video about it :) I'll put that on my list, after I've finished my current plans which involve death, dogs, and Odin.
@@Crecganford right on, I totally get that. You know with Vritra it’s even more obviously similar to cattle stealing because Vritra drinks up all the oceans with all the fish and whatnot. Very cool... like I said I’m looking forward to the rest of your videos :)
Also there’s a few “remaking of the world” myths which are similar to or borrow from the creation myth slaying. Typhon is slain by Zeus at a final battle, and in Vedic myth there’s Gochir I believe it is. It’s a logical thing to do, have your end of the world / remaking of the world myth reflect or parallel the creation myth.
Gayomart and the cow falling on their right sides & left sides resembles the Yamnaya burial practice of placing men on their right sides and women on their left sides? Could Vedic "Parusa" be cognate with "Perkanos" ?
Please check 23min20sec (Romulus and Remus). I was going along with this quite happily as Romulus and Remus arguing about the city they are GOING TO found, then Romulus killing Remus. But now, all of a sudden, R&R are seen as a threat to the Rome, which has ALREADY been founded, and which already has GENERATIONS of kings, (R&R mother = previous king's daughter), and the current king sees R&R claim as a threat! I'm happy to go along with a certain amount of bending to find the cognates, but not to the point of plasticine :-) Though I'm still loving this, by the way.
One of the take aways for me is that you cannot kill a good story. If you want people to accept a new doctrine, you have to couch it in terms that do not require people to give up a well loved tale. You graft your theology onto the existing story and modify the tale just enough to make it compatible with your ideas.
"Before time there was darkness" That is seminal. If time is just the recording of the process of the generative/degenerative process, would it hold that the darkness was immortality. Symbolically the image of light would be more symbolically appropriate, no?
Kevin Brennan The Irish have a legendary story, "the Cattle Raid of Cooley" that I thought blended somewhat with the emphasis on cattle from your references: Táin Bó Cúailnge Táin Bó Cúailnge, commonly known as The Táin or less commonly as The Cattle Raid of Cooley, is an epic from Irish mythology. It is often called "The Irish Iliad", although like most other early Irish literature, the Táin is written in prosimetrum, i.e. prose with periodic additions of verse composed by the characters.
I think the Gemini Twins Constellation was originally Manu and Yemo, while Orion Constellation was Trito, Odin, Third (Orion's belt even has Three stars). Who fought the serpent. Taurus constellation I think was Audumbla. Giving all three in the sky during the summer solstice.
Because the lack of solid evidence compared to other cultures. I do touch on this in other videos, but there was much Christian influence in any evidence we have it makes it a minefield to pick through. But I do, I think in my video on Wolfish Rage, talk about the Tain Bo, and how there are passages there that absolutely link to IE culture, and a reflex of the creation myth.
In one of the novels of the series The Exorcist (the third one, I think) there's a vision a character has near the end, where two cosmic beings are in conversation with one another. One is evidently younger / less mature - a child. That one tells the other one "I want to create myself." The older wiser one says "There will be pain." The younger one agrees, but has made up his mind, and he blasts himself into bits - one consciousness into many - and that gives rise to a universe of being. Clearly the idea is that that's how our universe came to be - when a divine being began a transformation to "adulthood." The implication is that eventually this being would come together again and would then have partaken of all of the experiences of every being that lived in its "universe." It was a rite of passage into that being's adulthood, I suppose. Anyway, I relate it because once again there's the concept of two beings and a sacrifice, but in this case it's a self-sacrifice (which I suppose I find more appealing, honestly), with the "parts" of a cosmic being forming the structure of our cosmos. And it was completely clear that this universe would contain both "good" and "evil" - happiness and despair, etc. Everything in positive and negative forms; it was just how the process worked, and couldn't be avoided. And that's what tied it back to the story at hand - one of demons and traditional Christian evil.
If there are parallel stories/motifs in cultures outside of the PIE region, ie North America and Siberia, would you please share? This would imply a shared story structure at least 40-30kya.
Yes, I will talk about these soon. If you haven't watched my cosmic hunt or ferryman video, they both are stories that fall into the category you're interested in.
I think the Finnish Thunder God was Ukku, and whilst the name you say sounds like Perkunos, I believe it is actually more akin to a curse word in Finnish.
@@mathish1477 This is exactly it. Perkunas/Perkele became kinda synonymous with Ukko, due to similar attributes as sky and thunder gods. And Perkele doesn't mean the devil, but it became a synonym to devil/paholainen/piru in the Finnish translation of The Bible, to discourage Finns from their old pagan ways. Christianity has had the habit of demonising the deities of surrounding nations, like the Caananite and Babylonian pantheons. The word demon (from the Greek daimon) in itself fell victim to this. If my memory serves me right, daimon was originally a term for spirits and lesser deities, benevolent and malevolent.
Could you maybe at some point explain why the Behemoth in Job isn't a hippo? Because that idea is floating around on the internet, and I'm not knowledgeable enough to counter that argument.
A lot of these myths involve creating order and dispelling chaos. We really like the idea that someone somewhere has a plan, and if we do the right rituals we'll never run into anything unpredictable or difficult.
Christianity did take a huge chunk of Egyptian mythos and applied it to Jesus. I'm not sure I would be the best person to talk about it, but I can try and find someone who is to talk to.
If the world is made from from the dead body of the king/twin, where does the Earth Mother come from? Also, where do humanity being created from trees or mud and the Tree of Life come in?
I'll explain the tree of life in my next video on Saturday, as for the Earth Mother, she was more a Neolithic Farmer figure that persisted, which I touch on in my Finding the Oldest Gods video. But I will talk more about both of these in future videos. Thanks for watching, and your question.
now I know how the word "manusya" originated from, and of the topic of discussion thare is a one set of twins in Indian mythos called Nara-Narayana, described as previous incarnations of ajruna and Krishna.
A very in depth explanation. However, I think it would be useful to do a video where you reverse the presentation. It seems a little odd starting with the theorised reconstructed Indo-European creation myth, then reading the various recorded historic myths and pointing out cognates back to the reconstructed myth, to “prove” that the historic myths derive from the theorised myth. This seems like presupposing your conclusion in order to prove your conclusion (that all these historic myths derive from the theorised myth) - a kind of circular argument. The academic process is the reverse of this - start with the historic myths, and then find common elements and linguistic cognates between them, to work out what elements must have existed in a common ancestor, and then create a proposed reconstruction of that common ancestor myth. Whilst this and the previous video in the series are very informative, I think it would be more persuasive to your case to demonstrate how the Indo-European creation myth is recreated from the extant historically attested myths. Keep up the good work - I have subbed! Thanks 🙏
Yes, I must admit I was in two minds on how to present this, which way around. And perhaps it is worth looking at it in reverse. Thank you for watching, and taking the time to write your comment. It is appreciated.
@@Crecganford Thanks John. I was a bit worried I sounded too negative. This is great work. I personally though would be really interested to see how the myth was reconstructed, step by step. Whilst I take your word that there is strong academic research and reasoning behind it all, I find it quite amazing that such a detailed myth can be reconstructed. The basic points I can see for sure, but I am left feeling I would like a few more specifics, both fact and process wise, to really believe 100% that this level of detail is possible. But of course you have a million things to cover, and I am just one dude, so I leave it with you. Cheers mate
@@shobadasari5363 I am not saying that the content of the myth is subject to scientific or other academic standards of truth. But the process of reconstruction of the myth is. The Indo-European creation myth is not written anywhere, nor even the language in which it would have been spoken. It has been constructed by modern academics on the basis of comparative linguistics and comparative mythology. Taking later languages and myths from various different cultures, which do have written records from their time and which are postulated to descend from a common ancestor, and triangulating to use common elements from these languages and myths to work out what the content of the older, unrecorded, common ancestor myth must have been. This certainly is a scientific process.
NgWhi, almost certainly comes from a personification of the three headed god on the indo-mediterranean cultures. I have spoken about it in my Trito video if you want to dive into it a little deeper.
I saw a video about how the three-headed dog, Cerberus, was associated with the journey between this life and the next in PIE and American indian stories. In some of these a bear on a bridge rather than a dog and a stream were in evidence.
A good question, and one we don't know the answer too. The PIE language was no doubt influenced by other cultures, and from the region where Armenia is would be one of those, but also the Near East, and probably further West towards Asia. There is a lot of studying going on right now to try and find out what is the most likely option, especially now DNA has helped us confirm some migrations. I would expect David Anthony to release something in the coming few years talking about it, and in the mean time if I find any interesting papers on the subject I will present them here.
Please ask any questions below, and thank you for all your feedback about setting up a community. I will sort something out in the next few weeks :)
Did you say these myths came from Iran?
@@ArcanumArcanorum17 some of them from Persia which is geographically similar
Are you on the new app,
Descended from odin .
@@stephan5673 It has annoying popups if you don't subscribe, and so I don't think I'll use it.
There exists a minority interpretation of Eve's creation out of Adam (only a few old testament scholars are confirmed to hold this view, though there may be more in number than I know). According to this interpretation, Eve was not built out of Adam's rib during some sleep of anaesthesia as it is popularly translated & interpreted by non-academics, but rather Adam was placed in a visionary state (the correct interpretation of his "falling into a deep sleep"), and in the vision he was cut in half, and out of this half Eve was formed.
The argument put forward by the old testament scholar John Walton is that the word usually translated "rib" or "side" elsewhere in the old testament texts refer to A SIDE OF A DUPLICATE OR PAIRED SYMMETRICAL OBJECT.
This ties in with themes from the IndoEuropean myth:
1. Adam prior to Eve's creation though not technically or obviously androgynous, does for the sake of the story's plot have the yet-to-be-created Feminine within his body
2. In this vision Adam sees, Eve is made from his body by being cut longitudinally in a symmetrical HALF, evoking the TWINSHIP THEME from the IndoEuropean myth.
Are you looking through my notes? You are taking 4 years of my obsessions and expanding on them! Seriously though, I truly believe there was something in the past that was a root for all of these myths/religions and the way you trace them back is really well done. You are doing an excellent job and thank you for all your time and effort.
Thank you for watching and your support, I'm now going to see if we can work out what they mean.
Checkout Hamlet's Mill
@@shaggyrandy1264 I actually have the original version of that beside me right now! I'm pondering re-reading it, I do remember it was a tough read but interesting
@@Crecganford it made religion easier to understand.... Jullian Jaynes the bicameral mind is another good
At lazershark: I know, right? I've been thinking the same for years.
I'm a junior anthropologist and theologian. I say junior because I couldn't continue following doctrine on either side of my studies. This is what I've been looking for for a long time. Folklore, oral history, has critical elements that is far more reliable than written history. You deserve far more recognition. Thank you. I'm opening old notes that I haven't read for more than two decades. Things are coming together where once I had dead ends.
Thank you for your kind words, and I hope you find more of my videos that interest you.
I love this channel ❤️
My daughter studied Sanskrit from age 4 at school and did a GCSE at age 14, she also studied Latin, Ancient Greek, Classics reading the Mahabharata and the Illiad as a kid, she loved it... Now the Mahabharata had some stuff which wasnt exactly PG!
If people get their kids interested in tgese subjects at a young age they will take to it.
She also studied Irish Gaelic.
Thank you for your kind words, and I hope my videos help.
@@Crecganford yes your videos are brilliant. Thank you for your work and if your ever coming to Ireland let me know!
I’m happy to have found your channel. It seems like you’ll have answers to a lot of questions I have.
This video was excellent. Thank you so much for your work, and for making it free on UA-cam!
P.s. You kinda sound like Taika Waititi as Korg lol
I am obsessed with all mythologies. Especially Norse/Celtic. I have randomly stumbled across a couple of your videos. Can't believe I haven't seen you sooner. Subscribed now. I absolutely love your voice. Your stories are excellently narrated!
Thank you so much for watching, and your very kind words, they are much appreciated.
*germanic,norse is just a branch of Germanic lol
I have been spending so much time trying to discover this information. Thank you so much for posting this and continuing your research. I appreciate it.
I was looging for this king of video for a long time. Thank you Crecganford!
Very interesting. I'm a Persian speaker. I haven't read Bundahish, but have partly read Shahname which is heavily inspired by ancient Persian myths. The story has fascinating similarities to the story of Feridon who killed Azhidehak/Zahhak; an usurper of the thrown with serpents on his shoulders who fed on people's brains. The main reason Feridon rebelled against the serpent is that he had killed the sacred cow (Gov-e-barmaye) who had nursed Feridon with its milk when he had been abandoned by his mother to be spared. After Feridon became the King, his reign was over all the seven kingdoms, later distributed between his three sons Salm, Tur and Iraj. Oh, I forgot to mention that the person who helped Feridon to beat Azhidehak was not a stone god, but a blacksmith called Kave whose sons were killed and their brains eaten by the serpents.
Alla hu akabaar !!!
Fascinating
Fascinating
It's just like the ancient times. The story gets better when you hear it again.
Thank you
Wow you definitely need more recognition for this video!! So well presented and easy to follow yet detailed. Job well done👌
Thank you, it was a challenge, but I am quite proud of what I managed to fit in and I haven’t seen another like it. So thank you for your kind words, they are very much appreciated.
the lighting is spectacular, but that automated gate... wheeeeeeew. LOVE your overwhelmingly knowledgeable perspective from which you're so gregariously flowing this... patience of knowing.. dunno how else to describe it, but gawddamn, your autogate+autogain is making my ptsd use words its not supposed to at work. i'm sure this is a very singular issue. so, please, don't spend money to change a THING if it's just me, but if there are other folks out there with strategies for listening through these issues (i'd just read but memory kinda... disappears from text after an hour or so) i would be so grateful. not at all the only source i encounter this issue with, but i aint got time to edit the audio on stuff anymore now that i can actually like.. go out in public and work.
I have a better microphone now :) Thank you.
I appreciate your time and effect put into these amazing videos. There is no high truth than knowledge. Peace be with you brother.
Thank you so much for watching, and your kind words.
Fascinating work, Jon White! I've been an ancient-ancient history nerd since childhood, and your videos bring so much into focus for me. It's so interesting to see how humankind has evolved, culturally, spiritually and psychologically, from our Neolithic origins, into what we are today. Watching your videos, I keep having Aha! moments, where the results of your research resonate with thoughts and intuitions I've had over my 76 years of trying to understand what makes us tick as human beings on this planet.
Love your videos, they provide such an interesting insight about the past.
Thank you for watching them, and taking the time to let me know. It is appreciated :)
Finally found a channel I’ve been looking for all these months
And thank you for watching and commenting, it is appreciated.
These videos are fascinating, I really enjoy them! You're about what I picture a Viking to look like, with a lovely narrator voice, and I can think of no better way of listening to mythology :D
Thank you for your kind words, they really are appreciated.
Absolutely Magnificent, thank you for sharing, expanding our knowledge.
Man I found this channel today. Immediately subscribed
Thank you
This sort of thing is exactly the kind of rabbit hole I’ve been looking for research for my stories
Another great video. Thank you.
This is extremely interesting. Similar myths are found throughout the American continent. In the Maya creation myth we find the twin brothers heroes, Hunahpu and Xbalanque, the collapse of the sky and the deluge, the slaying of the earth crocodile, the raising of the sky and the erection of the five World Trees, the maize god or 'first father', the defeating of deities of Thunder and Lightning, etcetera.
Have you read Popol Vuh?
Yea, I don't know much about the Mayan culture but I will look into this. Thank you!
@@Crecganford I didn't know about it either. It was my 13 y/o son who told me about it when he saw that I was watching your video. Some time ago my wife and I gave him a copy of the Popol Vuh because he likes to learn about mythology from different parts of the world. Now he has subscribed to your channel too. :)
The Popol Vuh, at least as we know it, was writted by a catholical friar: Francisco de Xerez. Based on an old 100% maya codex? Perhaps. But many ideas seem to be influenced by the christian-catholic religion. Hence the reason for the similarities.
You Mayans and Mexicans are crazy.
Enjoyed this video immensely. Well researched and organized delivery with great storytelling.
This is my favorite video on UA-cam. You are awesome. 😊
Wow, thank you so much for your kind words, they really are appreciated.
1) I know this video is old, so I doubt you'll see this, but I just want to start with, your videos are fascinating and this is simply where I'm at while binge watching your Uploads playlist. Lol. Can't wait to see more. 2) I know you have an opinion about Christians, and that's totally fine. As a Christian, I wish other Christians would separate their convictions from other people's opinions. I appreciate your approach in this video to an understandably sensitive topic, but I also know the reason is because of the hate comments people tend to leave. I hate those, and I'm so sorry. I wish you didn't have to deal with it, because I'd love to hear you go into more detail about the similarities between Genisis and other culture's myths. I will be checking out your other video on it as well. Keep up the great work.
Thank you for taking the time to comment, and I appreciate your words.
you videos are amazing!! the way you put together all the information, and present it so clearly and thoroughly, it is absolutely beautiful
Thank you so much for your kind words. They are appreciated.
Brilliant channel! I stumbled across this and am amazed. Thanks....I will be watching and thinking, which is what this is all about, after all.
Thank you!
Found your channel thanks to Robert Sass. Loving your content so far!
Thank you, and if you have any questions please ask in the comments. I try and reply to as many as I can.
You have gathered such a wealth of knowledge, and your ability to contextualize and distill this information for our education and use is invaluable.
My question is, do you think that the apparent origin in PIE religion is due to the early use of written language, when theoretically it could have had a genesis in an earlier tongue or existed at the same time as PIE in other unwritten but contemporaneous languages?
PIE was definately spoken before writing, but its origins are uncertain. Certianly the cultures from the Volga region had some input.
Awesome video, these elements can also be seen in later scripts of 1010 AD, "Shahnameh" by Ferdowsi, where "Freidon", the warrior figure builds an army that is made from the sacrifice of one out of two brothers (twin), to fight the three-headed serpent king "Zhahhak". Please cover the mythological connections of proto-Indo-European beliefs in "Shahnameh" as well.
Did you ever make the part 2 of this video? Would love to see it!
I made a few videos following this about Indo-European Religion and Culture, I have an Indo-European Playlist which should guide you through all the videos.
Great, thanks! I have wanted to know the connection between old norse and christian myths. I am looking forward to the rest of the series!
Thanks for watching!
The Eddas were written in the 13th century, after Christianity had sacked their culture.
It's a but unfair to assume to story was original and unaffected by Christians.
It's kinda assumed the Eddas had a Christian re-write, and we dont actually have any texts of their mythos beforehand.
Check out "Overly Sarcastic Productions" on UA-cam. 🤙🏼
@@lococomrade3488 I have also talked about this on my channel, so I would prefer if you pointed people to my videos :)
@@Crecganford 😂 sorry, this was the first of your vids I watched; promise to do so next time.
They cover a slightly different, but overlapping subject matter, so I wouldn't consider them "competition." (You may like them as well.. and they've done collabs..)
Nice vid, btw. Thanks for not saying aliens. ;)
Please point to those videos.
I like these videos for the fascinating insight into human history but also inspiration for the creation story of my fantasy world that I am creating. Keep it up.
And thank you for watching them, and taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
Such a good video! I'm so glad I discovered your channel.
Thank you for discovering Crecganford, and another thank you for taking the time to leave a comment. It is appreciated and supports the channel.
Very good material, as always. When I saw the Chinese myth of Pan Gu in the "genealogical tree", I was hoping you would talk about it too. I know you focus on indo-european mythology, but it would be interesting to know how the Chinese myth aligns with these myths. Further, I remember the Aztec myth of creation is VERY similar to the Babilonian. A video comparing them would be very interesting too.
I've seen many of your videos, and I love them. In many of them the sound is not good even when you evidently have a magnificent microphone. I assume that the problem is on the settings, that are adjusted extremely sensible and affect the quality of the recording.
I have recently purchased a new microphone, and so I do hope I can improve the audio quality as I am aware it has been a problem.
Thanks
Thank you so much for your support! It is very much appreciated.
In Vedic Indian mythology there is another guy Yama apart from the sacrificed purusha. Yama was the first man to die and his twin Yaami grieved for him as she wanted to marry him. Tears became Yamuna river. Yama is also god of death for Hindus.
That isn't a Vedic myth, but instead a Puranic myth.
Outstanding presentation. Thank you.
I like learning, but you are something else!!! If there are any interesting topics you personally enjoy I would absolutely love to know more about it!!!
Thank you for your kind words, and for watching. It is appreciated.
Great job, my congratulations and thank you !
Listening to the old norse creation myth i noticed the name Trito and for me, as a Greek, this name sounds familiar. Athena, the virgin warrior goddess, daughter and probably the first child of Zeus, has another name "Tritogeneia", which means (from) the third genus. There are many speculations, even in the ancient times, about this name's origins but nothing solid. There was a place in Crete as well, written in a linear B tablet, with the name "ti-ri-to" = "Trito". I think the old myths found some weird ways to survine in the greek mythology.
Thank you again!
Coming from an abrahahmic and heavily Afro cultured background we are often told mostly of western semitic culture basics like creations and such and some eastern hamitic as we call them based on our Noah story, but we are almost NEVER given information on the Indo European and other more Japhetic cultures and it's very hard to find objective sources and channels that put them succinctly, giving us much ignorance for lack of available knowledge on the upper Asian and Indo people's lives and world and your channel has helped me personally with my studies on the major ethnic groups, languages, and geographical kingdoms of the sons of humanity as I search to understand and appreciate them based on our biblical understanding via the table of nations.
Keep providing such undeniably endless value you are teaching many people and informing them on things that should be talked about MORE and are sorely misunderstood.
Thank you for your kind words, they are appreciated.
Jon, great work on this series of videos on the proto-Indo-European myth and its current descendants. That series of videos were the first by you I saw, and they were quite helpful. Have been interested for years in how to possibly reconstruct pre-Roman myths of peoples from current Portuguese territory and never quite knew how to aside just collecting any story which has a pre-medieval setting attributed to it or to use any similarity or link to surviving mythologies to just retro-engineer a myth and those always seemed too artificial to me and like something was missing.
Your wide synthesis of scholarship on reconstructions really made something "click" for me. After that, some southern Portuguese legends on a giant snake atacking cattle and fighting a bull and a town being build there, western Iberian variants on Her(a)cules and Geryon and stories on two Hercules all the sudden seem much more mythically rich. Anyhow, keep up the great work on the channel.
Another excellent video.Jon.
Even though i know most of the stories you tell or at least the basis of them.i love the way you retell them my friend.please keep up the great work it is much appreciated
I feel like fish in water within your stories. Your approach is very familiar to me and I enjoy getting filled in the blanks in my own contemplations
Thank you, that's very kind of you to say such things.
Big fan of the channel! Love the video but was confused about the connection between Tiamat and Behemoth. Do the names have connections to each other in some way or is there a separate reason why the two are linked? Regardless, keep up the great work!
That is a good question, and to answer it properly needs a good video, and that is something I am working on as it has many implications for those who are Abrahamic in their faith.
@@Crecganford thanks so much for the response! I eagerly await the video!
Can't recall what I watched that triggered the algorithm to suggest this vid, but it's doing something right. Very interesting, and now have a new book to read.
Thank you for trusting the algorithm! I hope you enjoy the videos here.
If you had to choose which Proto-Indo-European Mythology is your favorite, which one would you choose?
I personally enjoy Zoroastrian but Irish-Celtic is also fascinating and has inspired worldbuilding I've done;
However, I enjoy PIE Mythology the most.
That’s a great question, and I have to say because of the quantity of Old Norse Myth, then that would be my first choice. However the root myths of PIE are the most fascinating.
pie is fictional
Explain@@Thorsssssss
12:06. Is there any clue if a 3-aspect god in the Prose Edda was Catholic influenced? I recall the Eddas were written down some time after Christianisation of the region.
The Prose Edda definitely has Christian bias and so must be approached with caution, the Poetic Edda less so but it is there. But to say if that specific reference is, is difficult to prove.
I'm a firm believe every creation myth is but a different retelling of the same event, probably some cosmic event that the ancient people witnessed millenia ago. If we could group up together all of the different versions of the story, find common ground but also noticing the differences between each and every version, we probably could figure out what really happened!
I’m an American. I drink coffee… now i drink English breakfast tea while watching your videos
I call that a win for England :)
I have been looking trough your indoeuropean mithology videos I several time you include Babylonian and Hebrew myths... Arent those Semitic lenguages ? How would that prove continuity of the myths trough diferent language familys ?
Great question, and there are a number of ways which we collect data to place within a phylogenetic process to understand the likihood of a myth dispersing to other places. This includes known cultural integrations, DNA, linguistic evolution, mythemes or particular phrases used consistantly within the stories, archaeological evidence etc. And so perhaps the most consistent example used is where we know Indo-Europeans travelled through the Near East and into Africa as we see their myths in there, along with their DNA (i.e. the cattle raiding myths of the San people).
You do such a great job. Thank you so much
Thank you for your kind words, they are appreciated.
First time in here on your channel and it was very interesting to listen to.
Thank you, I hope you find more you like here.
Humans had a need to explain nature..what happens around us...probably way before writing. This need may explain why so many believe false social media 'stories' about well everything..politics..UFOS big foot..etc etc
.we just love stories so long as they have a 'Myth' quality
The crazier..the better it is spread.
I love learning from you. 😊
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Your awesome. I'm always searching with-in. A lot of this work I agree to.
Thank you for watching and commenting. If you have any questions or want to see anything in particular then let me know here :)
It's been a while but I seem to recall that there are several parallels between Sumerian myth and the Popol Vuh of the Maya, the hero twin brothers being among the most prominent.
Do you know any way where to read Dove Book in english translation? (Or Czech or Slovakian?)
I was pondering publishing my translation, I will do that this week. Check academia.edu in a few days and you should be able to find it :)
@@Crecganford Great! Thank you so much 😍
Briliant Video!
Thank you so much for your kind words.
the part about the king being willing to sacrifice himself to save his people made me think of the last king of the Mittani who sacrificed himself and his army to the Assyrians so his people could flee to India.
Exactly, a king must be willing to sacrifice himself for the people! Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
What was india called in that part of story?
Are there analogues of PIE, cultural and mythological diffusion in other geographical locations?
Yes, certainly we see this in North America, where three distinct waves of migration happened at the last glacial maximum, and there maybe a similar pattern in Oceania and Australia, although I'm less well versed in the anthropology here.
I really love that this stuff is talked about so much. Every time I see a new channel/person, I get happier. I'm trying to work out all the similarities and group all the similar gods in an attempt to make a set of gods for my fiction that represents a bunch of different mythologies.
It may be too big of an undertaking, though. I just don't want to default to Greek and Roman. That's where my mind seems to drift. And Mesopotamian.
This may be interesting to you. As far as my limited knowledge goes, I am of the opinion *the migration of Vedic Aryans (3400-1500 BCE) from North West India to Europe and Eurasia of the Druhyu tribes, the Alinas, the Anus etc resulted in the settlement of the Celts and Gauls, Germans, Balts, Hittites and the Zarathustra's (Iranians).* Remnants of these tribes in India were absorbed into the Bharat clan/Puru (Kurus and Panchalas) mainstream.
The Druids/Celts followed practices like idol worship, worship of multiple gods, food offerings in worship, philosophy of non destruction of soul, belief in rebirth after death, worship of ancestors, etc. Julius Caesar, while describing them, mentions that they were experts in Religion, Philosophy and Astronomy, and they were doing research in, debating and interpreting, those fields.
This is similar to the way Upanishads, Hindu scriptures were formed through debates, discussions and interpretation of Vedas. *The Druids chanted something similar to Vedas. Vedas were not written, but orally transmitted. Similarly the Druids did not keep a written record of the chanting. They did not read out from books. Those who chanted Vedas were under strict regulations and disciplines; the Druids also followed strict codes of conduct. Like this, the Druids can be compared to Indian priests who follow Vedic tradition in many ways.*
Apart from this, when Greeks and Romans brought Celts under their rule, they changed the Celtic names. They changed the names of places and people to Greek and Latin and gave new interpretations. Greeks had a general tendency to give their own names in Greek to the names of non-Greek people and places.
Therefore, we can imagine the havoc they had done to Celtic names, whose culture they wanted to wipe out completely. History shows the oppressive nature and sense of superiority of the Greeks, while dealing with their subjects. This resulted in concealing historical evidence. Not only that, many Celtic gods were brought into the Greek fold with new names and new dressing! Let us remember that the greatly praised Greek culture is a borrowed one!
When Greek dominance faded, the Celts were prevented by Christianity from continuing with their traditional Celtic practices and customs. Christianity showed keen interest in wiping them out totally. Namaste.
Thanks for creating these videos
Thank you for watching them
Ok, In the Kayin ethnics of Burma, there's a story about a gaint man named An Gun Ja Wa, who's so strong that the king assassinated him. From his body, the air and soil were born. But this has many plot holes of course. Where were men living without air nor soil?
OMG I am such a nerd! I wrote an prize-winning essay about Indo-European and the horse at uni citing David Anthony a lot, and I have that book by him! Also it's interesting about the god being cut into pieces, similar to Osiris in Egyptian mythology .and the the Romulus/ Remus drama. annoying questions: do you reckon 'mannus' is the cognate of 'man'?
Yes, Manu is cognate with man, the first man, as it relates to Yemo (twin) and Trito (third). So from a poetry and linguistic perspective it really is the most natural of fits.
@@Crecganford Oh yeah Yemo like Gemini! That's so cool!
Man in PIE is gHomon: made of dirt. Deriving from degHom: Earth, dirt. This coincides with almost all creation myths in which mankind was made from dirt or mud by a god or gods.
I'm originally an Indian Bengali, one of the eastern most IE (also me being upper caste and my look, I've relatively more genetic lineage to IE, I reckon). In our language, "maanush" means a person or a human, and generally used more to refer to a man. That's probably the closest cognate of "mannus" in 2023. "maanus" or "maanas" or its cousin words like "maanav", etc. in Hindi or other North Indian languages (Sanskritic) or maybe something similar in Sanskrit, are used for similar reasons.
Do you have any videos or information on the scythian people and thier beliefs?
Not yet, this part of mythology I have to create carefully as the information can be contradictory. But a video will be made as soon as I can.
You should talk about the Ulster Cycle particularly the Tain Bo Cuilgne, The Cattle Raid of Coolney staring Cu Cuthullain, the Hound of Cullen, earlier known as Sentana.
Yes, I want to! I have touched on that in videos about the British Creation Myth, but will do a series of videos on this when time allows.
Very much looking forward to a video on this. I haven’t read these yet, but they are on my book list.
Great video! I am fascinated with European mythology, but recently I have become interested in Aztec mythology and I do not think it gets the attention it deserves. Do you think there are any similarities between Hesiod’s ‘Ages of Man’ and the Aztec ‘Five Suns’ or are there mainly differences? Another way of asking the question is are there any commonalities between Mexica (Aztec) cosmology and/or accounts of early civilization with Hesiod's accounts?
Greek mythology is very popular, and Hesiod was one of the best ancient writers who documented a lot of mythological conceptions within ancient Greek society. One of the most important and interested mythological frameworks is the so called ‘Ages of Man’ concept. The Ages of Man are the historical stages of human existence according to Greek mythology and its subsequent Roman interpretation.
Both Hesiod (and later Ovid with his four ages) offered accounts of the successive ages of humanity, which tend to progress from an original, long-gone age in which humans enjoyed a nearly divine existence to the current age of the writer, in which humans are beset by innumerable pains and evils. In the two accounts that survive from Ancient Greece and Rome, this degradation of the human condition over time is indicated symbolically with metals of successively decreasing value (but increasing hardness).
The Greek poet Hesiod (between 750 and 650 BC), in his poem ‘Works and Days’ (lines 109-201) records this. His list is:
* Golden Age - The Golden Age is the only age that falls within the rule of Cronus. Created by the immortals who live on Olympus, these humans were said to live among the gods and freely mingled with them. Peace and harmony prevailed during this age. Humans did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance. They lived to very old age but with a youthful appearance and eventually died peacefully. Their spirits live on as "guardians". Plato in Cratylus (397e) recounts the golden race of men who came first. He clarifies that Hesiod did not mean men literally made of gold, but good and noble. He describes these men as daemons upon the earth. Since δαίμονες (daimones) is derived from δαήμονες (daēmones, meaning knowing or wise), they are beneficent, preventing ills, and guardians of mortals.
* Silver Age - The Silver Age and every age that follows fall within the rule of Cronus's successor and son, Zeus. Men in the Silver age lived for one hundred years under the dominion of their mothers. They lived only a short time as grown adults, and spent that time in strife with one another. During this Age men refused to worship the gods and Zeus destroyed them for their impiety. After death, humans of this age became "blessed spirits" of the underworld.
* Bronze Age - Men of the Bronze Age were hardened and tough, as war was their purpose and passion. Zeus created these humans out of ash tree. Their armor was forged of bronze, as were their homes, and tools. The men of this Age were undone by their own violent ways and left no named spirits; instead, they dwell in the "dark house of Hades". This Age came to an end with the flood of Deucalion.
* Heroic Age - The Heroic Age is the one age that does not correspond with any metal. It is also the only age that improves upon the age it follows. It was the heroes of this Age who fought at Thebes and Troy. This race of humans died and went to Elysium.
* Iron Age - Hesiod finds himself in the Iron Age. During this age, humans live an existence of toil and misery. Children dishonor their parents, brother fights with brother, and the social contract between guest and host (xenia) is forgotten. During this age, might makes right, and bad men use lies to be thought good. At the height of this age, humans no longer feel shame or indignation at wrongdoing; babies will be born with gray hair and the gods will have completely forsaken humanity: "there will be no help against evil."
The idea that mankind’s history is one of regress rather than of progress has been seen as central to the classical outlook on life. The famous historian of ideas, Arthur O. Lovejoy documents this phenomenon reflected in Greek and Roman mythology within his work titled *’Primitivism and related ideas in antiquity’* (1935). He distinguishes between chronological primitivism, cultural primitivism, soft primitivism, and hard primitivism. Hesiod also appears to document a “progressive” view of human history in his tale of the myth of Prometheus which stands in fascinating contrast to the “regressive” Ages of Man.
Anyway, with all that said about the Hesiodic Ages of Man, I was expanding my research in other cultures mythology, and I read about a concept within Mexica (Aztec) Mythology (and cosmology) called the ‘Five Suns’. These indigenous people’s mythological views were that the world has gone through five distinct cycles of creation and destruction, with the current era being the fifth. It is primarily derived from a combination of myths, cosmologies, and eschatological beliefs that were originally held by pre-Columbian peoples in the Mesoamerican region, including central Mexico, and it is part of a larger mythology of Fifth World or Fifth Sun beliefs.
It seems that there is a fundamental similarity between the Hesiodic Greek Ages of Man and Mexica (Aztec) Five Suns as both have five ages of man (with both seeming to be regressive) and in both modern man is in the fifth age. They also seem to be similar in assuming cyclical time. However, I am not an expert on Mexica (Aztec) Mythology and Cosmology and that I am looking for people who are more educated than me to educate and inform me whether I am correct in my assumptive assessment.
So, can we compare and contrast Mexica (Aztec) cosmology and/or accounts of early civilization with Hesiod's accounts (Ages of Man and maybe even perhaps the myth of Prometheus)? Are there any commonalities (as I suspect), or only differences?
After being obsessed with the politics around Donald Trump since the US mid-terms and their disastrous finale on 5th November I'm back to continue trekking through Crecganford.
My first question is: what is the sacred root from which Trito made the sacrificial drink? This sounds like a psychotropic used by shamans to connect with the spirit world. Do we have a hypothesis as to which actual plant is implied?
Different cultures would have used different plants, but we are not 100% sure what they were, we can only have an educated guess.
@@Crecganford Are there any known psychotropic plants in the Russian Steppes region where the PIE originated? That would be the most obvious place to look.
Hi Jon, I always wondered how the Greec creation with fits in the Indo European creation. There is no sacrifice of a Primordial being. Gaia just came out of Chaos. When Uranus got castrated, the world was already formed. Can Kronos/Saturn be compared with Buri or Borr?
That is a great question, and the links are there, but a generation removed. In effect the cultural replacement and neighbouring influence diluted it. I can produce a video about it as I have consider it before.
John,
Egyptian Seth (Setekh) cut Osiris (Usir) into pieces which are life giving. Could this myth have parallels with the Proto Indo-European creation myths?
Ty,
Astronomuse
I will do a video on this soon, but yes, there are certainly motifs that align to the Indo-European myths.
@@Crecganford Looking forward to the video, interested to hear your ideas. I've been delving into a myriad of myths and stories during the process of working on a project concerning the Dendera Zodiac of Egypt. Your work is very helpful to fellow scholars and story lovers. The Cosmic Hunt video is a fave.
Where did you get all your ancient deity statues? I would love to have some replicas myself, but I can’t seem to find any anywhere.
I have friends who work at museums and so get me replicas.
If Trito retrieves cattle from "mountains", then those "mountains" were the Caucasus?
Would the "dragon serpent" who stole the cattle represent some population with whom the PIEs were in contact & conflict, perhaps hunter-gatherers or farmers of the Caucasus or Fertile Crescent?
I'm curious, but you didn't mention it: Does the story of Cain and Abel, and the subsequent birth of Seth, fit into the creation myth. It seems like Cain and Abel would be analogues to Manus and Yemo, with Seth coming later as Trito.
Cain and Abel are very interesting, but when it comes down to details it is difficult to link them even if on the surface they look similar. I will make a video about this in the coming months though as it is often requested. Thank you so much for watching and supporting the channel through your comments, I appreciate it.
Would you say that, in this telling of the myth, that Dyeus Phter is darkness? In other words, Manus sacrifices Yemo to Dyeus Phter, aka darkness?
Also, what happens to the bovine? Do you see it as, immediately being recognized as Taurus the constellation, or something?
As always, thanks for the great research data.
31:30 isn't it a bit too early for "steel"? Even if it's a later addition of when it was written down.
The earliest known production of steel is from 4000 years ago (1800 BC) in Anatolia (Kaman-Kalehöyük).
Hey there, love your channel and all the meticulous research, as I mentioned the other day. So I’ve been thinking about the chaoskampf myth and the related creation myths, and how sometimes the dragon-slaying is separate from the creation myth (as seems to be the case with the PIE setup) and sometimes the sacrificed twin becomes the dragon (Tiamat, most notably). Ymir represents chaos, like Tiamat, and from both are made the world.
Now. You mentioned there’s no cattle stealing in Norse myth, but given that the cattle stealing is also the dragon slaying, and considering that Jormungand and Vrirtra and other such chaos dragons hold back (steal) the waters of the ocean or the outer ocean, and release a flood when slain - I wonder if the flood release and the cattle return aren’t equivalent. The point is fertility and prosperity; stealing the cattle is akin to a drought, perhaps. Releasing the pent up waters and bringing back the cattle could be similar. So Thor slaying Jormungandr in conjunction with the releasing of his tail could be similar. I think a lot of what used to be creation myth ideas worked their way into Ragnarok, because Ragnarok is a remaking or recreation of the world. Curious to hear your thoughts. I haven’t watched the rest of this playlist yet so apologies if you get to this. I’m definitely going to finish it though, it’s fabulous! Cheers friend
The tale of Thor fishing for the Midgard serpent is infact a reflex of the cattle raiding myth... Thor kills cattle, catches serpent with cattle, then kills giants. The Ragnarok event I feel is the equivalent of the flood event in older myths. But to explain that in a text reply will be futile unless I could write a book. So perhaps I should do a video about it :) I'll put that on my list, after I've finished my current plans which involve death, dogs, and Odin.
@@Crecganford right on, I totally get that. You know with Vritra it’s even more obviously similar to cattle stealing because Vritra drinks up all the oceans with all the fish and whatnot. Very cool... like I said I’m looking forward to the rest of your videos :)
Also there’s a few “remaking of the world” myths which are similar to or borrow from the creation myth slaying. Typhon is slain by Zeus at a final battle, and in Vedic myth there’s Gochir I believe it is. It’s a logical thing to do, have your end of the world / remaking of the world myth reflect or parallel the creation myth.
@@DavidLightbringer Yes, The Greek myths are a little removed from the original motifs, but still recognizable :)
only half way through but great video man, thank you!
Thank you for watching
Awesome vid, thank you
And thank you for watching and taking the time to leave a comment, it is appreciated.
@@Crecganford Do you have an email address? I want to show you something cool I found that you might like.
Gayomart and the cow falling on their right sides & left sides resembles the Yamnaya burial practice of placing men on their right sides and women on their left sides?
Could Vedic "Parusa" be cognate with "Perkanos" ?
Please check 23min20sec (Romulus and Remus). I was going along with this quite happily as Romulus and Remus arguing about the city they are GOING TO found, then Romulus killing Remus. But now, all of a sudden, R&R are seen as a threat to the Rome, which has ALREADY been founded, and which already has GENERATIONS of kings, (R&R mother = previous king's daughter), and the current king sees R&R claim as a threat!
I'm happy to go along with a certain amount of bending to find the cognates, but not to the point of plasticine :-)
Though I'm still loving this, by the way.
One of the take aways for me is that you cannot kill a good story. If you want people to accept a new doctrine, you have to couch it in terms that do not require people to give up a well loved tale. You graft your theology onto the existing story and modify the tale just enough to make it compatible with your ideas.
"Before time there was darkness" That is seminal. If time is just the recording of the process of the generative/degenerative process, would it hold that the darkness was immortality. Symbolically the image of light would be more symbolically appropriate, no?
Kevin Brennan The Irish have a legendary story, "the Cattle Raid of Cooley" that I thought blended somewhat with the emphasis on cattle from your references:
Táin Bó Cúailnge
Táin Bó Cúailnge, commonly known as The Táin or less commonly as The Cattle Raid of Cooley, is an epic from Irish mythology. It is often called "The Irish Iliad", although like most other early Irish literature, the Táin is written in prosimetrum, i.e. prose with periodic additions of verse composed by the characters.
Is there any evidence for fire and ice being something like the sun and moon? Out of darkness came time, out of time came the sun and moon?
I think the Gemini Twins Constellation was originally Manu and Yemo, while Orion Constellation was Trito, Odin, Third (Orion's belt even has Three stars). Who fought the serpent. Taurus constellation I think was Audumbla. Giving all three in the sky during the summer solstice.
Why the lack of (Irish and or Welsh) Celtic mythology in your comparisons?
Because the lack of solid evidence compared to other cultures. I do touch on this in other videos, but there was much Christian influence in any evidence we have it makes it a minefield to pick through. But I do, I think in my video on Wolfish Rage, talk about the Tain Bo, and how there are passages there that absolutely link to IE culture, and a reflex of the creation myth.
In one of the novels of the series The Exorcist (the third one, I think) there's a vision a character has near the end, where two cosmic beings are in conversation with one another. One is evidently younger / less mature - a child. That one tells the other one "I want to create myself." The older wiser one says "There will be pain." The younger one agrees, but has made up his mind, and he blasts himself into bits - one consciousness into many - and that gives rise to a universe of being. Clearly the idea is that that's how our universe came to be - when a divine being began a transformation to "adulthood." The implication is that eventually this being would come together again and would then have partaken of all of the experiences of every being that lived in its "universe." It was a rite of passage into that being's adulthood, I suppose.
Anyway, I relate it because once again there's the concept of two beings and a sacrifice, but in this case it's a self-sacrifice (which I suppose I find more appealing, honestly), with the "parts" of a cosmic being forming the structure of our cosmos. And it was completely clear that this universe would contain both "good" and "evil" - happiness and despair, etc. Everything in positive and negative forms; it was just how the process worked, and couldn't be avoided. And that's what tied it back to the story at hand - one of demons and traditional Christian evil.
If there are parallel stories/motifs in cultures outside of the PIE region, ie North America and Siberia, would you please share? This would imply a shared story structure at least 40-30kya.
Yes, I will talk about these soon. If you haven't watched my cosmic hunt or ferryman video, they both are stories that fall into the category you're interested in.
Is perkela in Finnish cognate with the god you mentioned early in the video?
I think the Finnish Thunder God was Ukku, and whilst the name you say sounds like Perkunos, I believe it is actually more akin to a curse word in Finnish.
@@Crecganford it means, the devil. Maybe devils are old god's, being displaced by new ones?
@@mathish1477 This is exactly it. Perkunas/Perkele became kinda synonymous with Ukko, due to similar attributes as sky and thunder gods. And Perkele doesn't mean the devil, but it became a synonym to devil/paholainen/piru in the Finnish translation of The Bible, to discourage Finns from their old pagan ways.
Christianity has had the habit of demonising the deities of surrounding nations, like the Caananite and Babylonian pantheons. The word demon (from the Greek daimon) in itself fell victim to this. If my memory serves me right, daimon was originally a term for spirits and lesser deities, benevolent and malevolent.
@@Marskilius amazing, kitos!!!
@@mathish1477 you are welcome, ole hyvä! Always happy to share folklore and history from my country 😊
Could you maybe at some point explain why the Behemoth in Job isn't a hippo? Because that idea is floating around on the internet, and I'm not knowledgeable enough to counter that argument.
I will be talking about this in the next few months, the origins of the "dragon" myth, it is one of my specialist subjects :)
A lot of these myths involve creating order and dispelling chaos. We really like the idea that someone somewhere has a plan, and if we do the right rituals we'll never run into anything unpredictable or difficult.
I would like to see proto-Afroasiatic mythology,how are Egyptian and Christianity related? That would be pretty cool
Christianity did take a huge chunk of Egyptian mythos and applied it to Jesus. I'm not sure I would be the best person to talk about it, but I can try and find someone who is to talk to.
If the world is made from from the dead body of the king/twin, where does the Earth Mother come from? Also, where do humanity being created from trees or mud and the Tree of Life come in?
I'll explain the tree of life in my next video on Saturday, as for the Earth Mother, she was more a Neolithic Farmer figure that persisted, which I touch on in my Finding the Oldest Gods video. But I will talk more about both of these in future videos. Thanks for watching, and your question.
Are you able to explain the Pantheon in a future video
Yes, I'm happy to do that
now I know how the word "manusya" originated from,
and of the topic of discussion thare is a one set of twins in Indian mythos called Nara-Narayana, described as previous incarnations of ajruna and Krishna.
A very in depth explanation. However, I think it would be useful to do a video where you reverse the presentation. It seems a little odd starting with the theorised reconstructed Indo-European creation myth, then reading the various recorded historic myths and pointing out cognates back to the reconstructed myth, to “prove” that the historic myths derive from the theorised myth. This seems like presupposing your conclusion in order to prove your conclusion (that all these historic myths derive from the theorised myth) - a kind of circular argument. The academic process is the reverse of this - start with the historic myths, and then find common elements and linguistic cognates between them, to work out what elements must have existed in a common ancestor, and then create a proposed reconstruction of that common ancestor myth. Whilst this and the previous video in the series are very informative, I think it would be more persuasive to your case to demonstrate how the Indo-European creation myth is recreated from the extant historically attested myths. Keep up the good work - I have subbed! Thanks 🙏
Yes, I must admit I was in two minds on how to present this, which way around. And perhaps it is worth looking at it in reverse. Thank you for watching, and taking the time to write your comment. It is appreciated.
@@Crecganford Thanks John. I was a bit worried I sounded too negative. This is great work. I personally though would be really interested to see how the myth was reconstructed, step by step. Whilst I take your word that there is strong academic research and reasoning behind it all, I find it quite amazing that such a detailed myth can be reconstructed. The basic points I can see for sure, but I am left feeling I would like a few more specifics, both fact and process wise, to really believe 100% that this level of detail is possible. But of course you have a million things to cover, and I am just one dude, so I leave it with you. Cheers mate
This is entirely theology. How can it be reconciled into scientific truth?
@@shobadasari5363 I am not saying that the content of the myth is subject to scientific or other academic standards of truth. But the process of reconstruction of the myth is. The Indo-European creation myth is not written anywhere, nor even the language in which it would have been spoken. It has been constructed by modern academics on the basis of comparative linguistics and comparative mythology. Taking later languages and myths from various different cultures, which do have written records from their time and which are postulated to descend from a common ancestor, and triangulating to use common elements from these languages and myths to work out what the content of the older, unrecorded, common ancestor myth must have been. This certainly is a scientific process.
@@shobadasari5363 I cover so much, and do refer to academic texts, and so which part are you talking about? How these are linked?
Where does the Serpent with three heads come from?? What is the origin of that mythology element. Also can you spell it please?
NgWhi, almost certainly comes from a personification of the three headed god on the indo-mediterranean cultures. I have spoken about it in my Trito video if you want to dive into it a little deeper.
I saw a video about how the three-headed dog, Cerberus, was associated with the journey between this life and the next in PIE and American indian stories. In some of these a bear on a bridge rather than a dog and a stream were in evidence.
Great video, I never wondered ... but now I know why the cow is sacred in India.
What do you think about the Armenian hypothesis? It seems that the origins of Proto Indo European language originated there
A good question, and one we don't know the answer too. The PIE language was no doubt influenced by other cultures, and from the region where Armenia is would be one of those, but also the Near East, and probably further West towards Asia. There is a lot of studying going on right now to try and find out what is the most likely option, especially now DNA has helped us confirm some migrations. I would expect David Anthony to release something in the coming few years talking about it, and in the mean time if I find any interesting papers on the subject I will present them here.