The Proto Indo-European Creation Myth: What Does It All Mean?
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- Опубліковано 2 тра 2024
- The Proto Indo-Europeans create a myth involving two brothers and a cow, but why? What does the creation myth mean? What does it represent? In this video we walk through the myth trying to work out what it meant by considering differences, especially the role of the cow and ox, and conclude by telling another version of the myth.
Bibliography
Griffith, Ralph T. H., trans., Hymns of the Rigveda (Benares: E. J. Lazarus, 1897) 2:517 ff., modified
Anklesaria, B.T., trans., Zand-Akszih: Iranian or Greater Bundahisn (Bombay: Rahnumae Mazdayasnan Sabha, 1956), pp. 49, 53, 117, 119, 127, modified
Young, Jean I., translation, Snorri Sturluson: The Prose Edda (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1954), pp. 34-35, modified
Eggeling, J. trans. Satapatha Brahmana (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1:29-30.), modified
Raleigh, Sir Walter, History of the World, Printed for Walter Burre, London, 1614
Anthony, D. W. (2010) The horse, the wheel, and language: How Bronze-Age riders from the Eurasian steppes shaped the modern world, The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World. Princeton University Press. doi: 10.5860/choice.45-6255.
Lincoln, B. (2016) ‘The Indo-European Cattle-Raiding Myth Source : History of Religions , Vol . 16 , No . 1 ( Aug ., 1976 ), pp . 42-65 Published by : The University of Chicago Press’, 16(1), pp. 42-65.
Lincoln, B. (1986) Myth, cosmos, and society. Harvard University Press. ISBN 0674597753
Lincoln, B. (1975) ‘The Indo-European Myth of Creation’, History of Religions, 15(2), pp. 121-145. doi: 10.1086/462739.
Zand-Akasih, Iranian or Greater Bundahish, Translated by Behramgore Tehmuras Anklesaria, M. A. Formerly Principal, Sir Jamsetji Jeejeebhoy Zarthoshti Madressa and Mulla. Feeroze Madressa, Bombay. Published for the Rahnumae Mazdayasnan Sabha by its Honorary Secretary Dastur Framroze A. Bode. 2002
Artwork: Mamontova (Fiverr)
Intro music licensed from Artlist.io
Pictures are my own, without licesne, or licensed from Shutterstock, or acquired from Pxhere
Chapters
===========================
0:00 Introduction
1:01 What does the Indo European Creation Myth mean?
3:59 The cyclical nature of life
5:34 The King and the land
6:40 Chaos and Happiness
7:41 The Bovine's changing role
12:16 Which creation myth narrative is the oldest?
14:53 The ritual of sacrifice of "cows and men"
16:53 The classes of men
17:49 The afterlife
18:41 The beliefs weren't static
19:25 A new version of the Indo European Creation Myth
21:40 There were creation myths before this
22:26 The next videos and the creation of pantheons
You put some points about the role of the king as the sacrifice really into perspective for me. I once saw a documentary about a bog mummy and the archeologists said that they believed the mummy was a king who had been a sacrifice to the gods. - The man was well fed and fit, had manicured hands, didn't seem to have done hard physical work in his life and was overkilled in a sacrificial looking way.
What was really interesting was that his nipple had been slashed. They said they thought there was a ritual to suckle on a kings nipple for good fortune. And when a king 'failed' to bring fertility and freedom of sickness and hunger to the land the people would slash his nipple and kill him as a sacrifice in order to appease the gods.
I always found the suckling of a male nipple weird but if Yemo and the cow are so similar concepts it makes a lot more sense.
Thank you for watching, and a great comment. Thank you for taking the time to write that, it is appreciated.
Nah it ain't weird. The king just not trying hard enough. Real kings lactate😎💪👑
I remember hearing that in medieval Ireland sucking a king's nipple was a sign of submission to his authority.
I have a fun one for you. The Romanian folk creation myth: Before the Earth existed, the world was a vast water. In this world lived God. God was lonely, and threw his axe into the water, and from it sprouted a great tree, and under the tree sat the Devil. The Devil, upon seeing God, cried out with joy "Hello, brother!" but God rejected this, and said that nobody could be his brother/equal, and that the Devil was his "Not-brother". The Devil then said that they needed somewhere to live, so God asked the Devil to bring up clay from beneath the world ocean in God's name, but the Devil tried to bring the clay up in his own name, and repeatedly failed, until he finally gave in and brought it up in God's name. This clay was the primordial Earth, and after forming it. Satisfied with the world he created, God laid down to rest.
The Devil, fed up with his brother, decided to push him off the edge of the Earth, but every time he tried, more land sprouted up under God's sleeping body. By the time God woke up, the Earth had grown immensely, and when he woke up he was overjoyed at the extent of creation and said "Look at what you've created!" with joy, while the Devil was simply frustrated that he couldn't drown God.
In some versions after the creation of the Earth, the Devil says he wants to rest under his tree and tells God to go find another home, and God gets angry at the Devil, since God was the one that shaped the Earth, their new home, and so a great bull comes and takes the Devil away.
So we have: primordial waters, a world tree, primordial twins, and potentially a primordial bull. Oh, and one tale claims that God was born from the wind, while another claims that he was born from the foam of a whirlpool.
I haven't heard that story, but it sounds like a Christian influenced reflex (due to the Devil) of the PIE version of the myth. This isn't the first time I've seen this, the Dove Poem is another example of this, putting PIE cosmogony into a Christian context. Thank you for sharing this, very interesting.
Hey the anishinabe from the northeast woodlands of America have a strangely similar story of several animals trying to reach the bottom until one dies after bringing back mud from the bottom of the ocean to puton the turtles back and create the world. Eerie!!
Do you want to hear more about the Old Norse or Neolithic and Paleolithic myth next?
All 😊
@@lizcrafts1 That's a great answer :)
neo and paleo would be super cool!
Love your videos, man. Keep it up :) Please dont sacrifice yourself with a cow though, we need your knowledge to be passed on :)
I would LOVE to keep going back to the earliest stories we know of!
It would also be great to look at why the PIE mythology won out over other mythologies from other language groups and spread out over such a wide area. Are there other 'successful' mythologies from other tribes that had an influence on the PIE mythology?
Anyway, thank you for presenting on an engrossing topic I know little about!
@@philipwaters5043 Thanks for watching, supporting, and all the feedback :)
I don't think "Mankind" has anything to do with masculinity or patriarchy, it's simply short for "Humankind".
In fact it's not as 'man' is Germanic and 'human' is Italic, but both meant exactly the same thing.
@@shanegooding4839 I think the base word is "Manu"
I'm thankful for you sharing all of your videos. It is beautiful.
Thank you 🌼
I just absolutely love your channel and I'm so excited to have an entire syllabus of videos to catch up on. You are a great teacher. Thank you!
Thank you so much for your kind words, they are appreciated.
Just found your channel and I’ve been wondering all night where you’ve been all my life. Amazing content. Can’t wait to watch everything you have up 😅
Wow, thank you for your kind words and watching my videos!
What would we do without your videos?! 💗🙏🏽🙂 so interesting and enlightening
I love the way you deliver these often complex matters in such a succinct and approachable method. I appreciate the chapter structure. This is the first video I've seen of yours, and I am now going to dive into your library. Count me as a subscriber. Thank you for your work.
Thank you for watching and commenting :)
love the topics you bring up in your channel. cheers from Brazil
glad I found your channel, great information and brilliantly presented!
Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment, your kind words are appreciated
Nice information. Really interesting. I can connect this origin myth to increasingly sophisticated arguments around the oneness of individual and the universe in the vedanta and in tibetan buddhism.
How have you only got 4.5 k subs it's actually depressing how underrated you are as a content creator good things will come just keep grinding the Berg
Thank you for your kind words. The one good thing about being small is that I can answer most my comments :) The people who do watch my videos have such good ideas and great questions, I feel truly humbled to have what I have.
@@Crecganford certainly is nice to see you in the comment section. I suppose it's quite a niche subject and well and needs to be done in quite long form videos. I really enjoy your content nice. All it takes is one video to go viral and the ball will start rolling. Even getting a thousand subs is probably the hardest part.
@@devrimkay1636 yes, I was surprised to get a thousand subs, so every additional thousand is a bonus :)
Amazing work, cleared up a lot of questions I have been pondering. Thank you!
Feel free to ask questions and I'll try and answer them :)
In Sanskrit, the cow was often used as a representation of the mother Earth/Gaia (cow is Gau/Go in Sanskrit) and also of "Dharma", the power which arises out of being in harmony with the universal order "Ritam" (same word root as rhythm).
What a beautiful content!!! Keep it up
Thank you
Just Wonderful sir. Thank you, you help so many of the pieces fit together, in a way that works for my mind. Respect. m
Thank you for your kind words, and for watching the video too!
Ah! This is great. And now I see the hint of Wodanaz per my earlier comment on a later one of your videos. I guess I should watch these in order. Oops!
Thank you for watching them, in any order! It is all appreciated.
I really love this kind of topic and pretty much everything this channel has to offer :D
I highly rec you to read Mircea Eliade : History of religious idea !
I don’t know that book and so will look it up. Thank you for watching and your kind words.
@@Crecganford I really hope you will find it interesting .. Mircea Eliade was a genius and a visionary of ancient world.
Crecganford + Eliade...oh, may it be so!
Love your speculations mixing with scholarly fact; no disclaimer necessary; indeed history is most interesting when you attempt to piece the pieces together with speculation/story
Thank you.
Great video👏👏
This is all extremely interesting.
I think of it almost like a game of telephone, as in whispering something into someone's ear and then they pass it on to the next person and so on and so on until you have a message that only vaguely resembles the original message.
Religion is derived from the land, ultimately, so it makes sense that beliefs would change as people moved around.
This is such a great channel!
Thank you :)
@@Crecganford truly amazing. I am new to the topic and find the structure of your Videos transparent and all of the reasoning behind the conclusions eloquently presented.
Keep on with the good work!
@@asphaltexistenzler2215 Thank you, I have tried to plan the videos so they all make sense on their own, and when grouped with similar ones to help provide a more expanded view of the subject. If you have any questions please ask, and I'll answer if I can or I may even make a video to respond, depending on the complexity of the answer.
Your hard edits are brutal
I'm rubbish at editing video, but I am getting better I hope.
I love your videos and learning on all this super interesting topic..it's funny , I often say that activities where I can transform disorder into order are those that really give me satisfaction..
Thank you.
The Finno-Ugric myths tradition identifies at least two competing creation myths, one being the cosmic worl egg and the other is the cosmic diver hero.
In the Finno-Baltic egg myth, a sacred bird such as a swallow, eagle, crane, swan, great crested grebe, pochard, goldeneye, mallard or Eurasian teal lays an cosmic egg that breaks into pieces and gives birth and origin to the world.
In the diver myths, a popular hero like Väinämöinen, Joukahainen, Jesus or someone else dives or fishes the seabed and builds dry land for people to live in because the whole world is covered by a large sea and under this primordial water. And at the same time, the driver hero gives birth to all forms of water bodies; such as reefs, rocks, shoals, graves, ridges, basins, pools, islands, skerries, peninsulas, bays, coves, beaches, rivers, straits, swamps, bogs, lakes and small ponds.
The only thing that comes close to the Indo-European creation myth in Finno-Ugric myths is the rune about the giant ox of Häme, which is so strong that even the gods cannot slaughter it and which is so big that it does not fit inside the borders of one state.
I guess you could say they were Holy Divers.
@Faroe Jokes aside, one could see Holy Diver (the song by Dio) as an allegory for the struggles of the diver hero. I wouldn't be shocked if Dio was indeed inspired by such research, as mythology has been a foundational inspiration for heavy metal songs since the beginning of the genre.
Jesus?
@@silencemeviolateme6076 Christianity has influenced Finland since around the 9th century, and during these 1200 years, Jesus and the Virgin Mary were in some way paganized as part of the local folk religion.
the pastoral vs agricultural difference is such a mind blowing realization for me because its something we actively comment on in america eg: people who think cows are sacred are weird
that this difference in view would affect myths and sacrifices seems so obvious now
I have noticed in these early myths that the gods seem to form after the figures of Manus and the cow and his twin. If the gods were created later, what does that imply, if anything, about the way Indo-Europeans would have perceived them. How did they relate to their gods? As representations of nature or as ancestors? Really been loving these videos, thank you so much for sharing this knowledge!
That is a great question, and one that requires a huge answer, and this is best done via new videos. Although what I will say is that it was very common for gods to be created after the primordial beings. I talk about this more in my next video out this Saturday, discussing the earliest creation myths.
@@Crecganford I would be very interested in a video on this as well! Very good question, and perhaps at first it was an auroch, but who knows...
Fascinating sir!
Thank you for your support!
Subbed after just watching this, my first, video. Great job & it was so helpful to know the historical context of the more modern indo-European religious beliefs.
Just a coincidence two brothers, one kills the other? From the darkness there was light? Seems these themes carried down to Judaism though altered to serve their goals. And worshiping the golden calf, but it being a sin against Yahweh...sounds like an indication of a 'political shift' in their spirituality from the old ways to a new way (that better suited the spiritual needs & priorities of a settled lifestyle?).
Any thoughts?
Thanks so much for this video!
And thank you for watching, I appreciate your support
Very enlightning
Thank you for presenting the religion of my people with so much respect and accuracy
New listener here, binging and sharing like mad.
One question: if you were building a timeline for the movement of language and culture from the steppes, roughly when would it start?
That’s an interesting question, and I do touch on this in other videos. My feeling is that certainly by 8,000BCE peoples were migrating with the early form of language and some of the beliefs. And by 4,000BCE culture and language of what we know as PIE was well and truly established. But like anything like this there wasn’t an absolute start or end, and so you can’t really give an exact date.
@@Crecganford Thanks for prompt response, which I need to discuss these videos with friends and family.
Great show and greetings from Sweden
Thank you and welcome
This was fascinating. Thank you.
Very good video, it's good to hear that European history is discussed and the connections to proto iranians acknowledged. However, indo- European is very broad term and myself being from north of Europe, extensively having researched Swadesh lists and finding some gaps (perhaps prejudice), I can say that we cannot narrow down this much. I do not seem to relate to this type of Indo-European mythology and most south European wouldn't also. What we can do is acknowledge that over 9TH years ago we started to domesticate cows and around that time tuberculosis appeared. The cows gave people everything- meat, milk, cheese, skins but brought an illness with it. So, going into spiritual mind that wants to draw parallels and explain the illnesses and blessings, they might have started to see cows as gods - treat them well and they will treat you well.
Not all of Europe's races are part of indo Europeans..
Genetically only those of R1 lineages are indo Europeans.
The Aryan lineage is specifically R1a1a Z-93 lineage. Or Y haplogroup.
Meat was not eaten by indo Europeans. It's a popular narration by Abrahamic cults who control academia and thus textbook narratives - officially called mainstream history.
@@FilesdocumentsAndreposit-kr3vb How we are today- it's up to us- Do we want to celebrate the common or do we want to point out the differences?
One could argue that term Indo-European is cultural and linguistical as much as genetical or even geographical term. Whilst of course, I do agree that mention R1a lineage is important, we need to keep our minds open when talking about historical events that took place over thousands of years. If we were to talk about the lineages, then we would need to go into a conversation of when did Indo become Indo-European and when did Indo-European became European. And when did European become American, Australian and what else.
What we need to understand that at some point someone left an area that they would call home and move- by force, by need or by want. They took with themselves stories, songs and dances of their ancestors and the life they knew. Whether they went alone or in groups, they would keep their tradition and language alive. When having offspring, they would teach them their knowledge; then these offspring would do the same what their ancestors did- move- by force, by need or by want, meeting people similar but not the same. Races and DNA, the culture and language would mix and change. Of course, the further the offspring of the offspring went, the less of the original DNA would follow, the less of the original language and traditions would follow. But the beauty is that despite many dark ages that the world have experienced, we can still see what we have in common and acknowledge our ancestor strength keeping that knowledge alive for thousands of years. How we are today- it's up to us- Do we want to celebrate the common or do we want to point out the differences?
@@DF35689 the paternal lineage forver persists. Here in India we have hundreds upon hundreds of large population clans and groups with 100% R1a1a frequency.
Amazing how our ancestors are communicating their world to us! If we just pay attention!
As regards the reincarnation belief system... I would argue that Aristotle came up with a system that more or less guaranteed reincarnation. Aristotle appears to have originated the 'virtue' as the mean between two vices theory. The example that always sticks with me is the one regarding bravery -- which is a virtue. Many would want to argue that the opposite of bravery is cowardice, and they'd be only half correct according to Aristotle. They're ignoring the other extreme -- heedlessness. The coward will not fight no matter how favorable the odds are for him/her (eg. 100%)... While a heedless person would be willing to charge an enemy with no possibility of doing any damage or succeeding in any way (eg. 0%). For Aristotle, Bravery sat at the midpoint between cowardice and heedlessness. I would contend that this system essentially creates a psychological personality matrix which creates important questions regarding the question of identity. If you die but a precise copy of your exact psychological matrix re-appears, I would contend that these people would see that as reincarnation -- even without the memories. After all, they were aware of amnesia. And even though the person suffering from amnesia doesn't remember his past, there was no question that the person did experience a past...they simply no longer have the ability to recall it. They'd see this psychological matrix as quite the same. In fact, we see plenty of evidence of them referencing a long 'sleep' or 'slumber' that essentially referred to the time between re-instantiation. When you die, your psychological matrix disappears. Then after some duration of time (slumber), that psychological matrix reappears. Our egos tend to get very attached to our memories. But we seldom enough ask ourselves how much of our psychological disposition matrix may have been determined at conception -- when there are no memories to draw upon yet. We cannot discuss any creation myths without also understanding our own modern understanding of 'identity', but also how that understanding has changed through the centuries and farther.
@@davidbenyahuda5190 The fact that you'd make such a racist statement is telling.
This is brilliant stuff. Do you see the roots of the development of the sophisticated cosmologies and metaphysics of the Upanishads, Buddhism, Dionyseans/Orphism in this earlier proto-indoeuropean mono-myth?
There is definitely influence in the Persian and Vedic cultures, and this would eventually feed back into Greece. And so yes, to a degree I do.
@Anonymous well its hard to argue that buddhism doesn't "match" the upanishads as the Buddha Dharma came out of the Upanishads, and can hardly claim to be a truly independent tradition from it.
We only have archeology on the Orphics and Dionyseans from the Mycenaean and pre-hellenic age, and it's remnants in the early classical world. While Orphism may have been more well-developed in its philosophy and metaphysics than the Dionyseans, who were a more wide-spread wine cult of the horned-god folk religion related to the horned god of the paleo proto-indoeuropeans; While I wouldn't be too-quick to assume that they didn't have philosophical, cosmological, psychological, and/or metaphysical sophistication and relevance, I think that, despite being formed and written at a time closer-to, or contemporary-with the practice of Orphism and the Dionyseans, the Upanishads certainly seems much more well developed and sophisticated than our records of these Bronze Age folk cults do. On the other hand, would they seem so if not for the development of the thinkers to come?; While the folk-cults seem to have died out, those Upanishads kept being a source of inspiration and a point of thinking in a living religion on into the modern day. They chose what writings and ideas would last, and which would fall out of favor, or get recontextualized.
Interesting!
I would posit that a 'falling out' of the cow as a necessary sacrifice in the creation of the world in agriculturalist societies, in particular the Norse, could also be attributed to two main factors:
Firstly, the fact that sea-life and game were also increasingly important sources of sinew, bone, furs and meat. Europe and particularly the north was a very rich region on wildlife. And the cow comparatively loses its importance in the journey towards the great ice-wall to the north.
Secondly, the fact that ice is the predominant landscape-feature. One of the most important sources of food for them, the sea, is fed by the ice around them. This is mirrored in their retelling of the creation myth. The ice-wall of the north, namely is the representation of Ymir the people can see every day. Where the world is not just created from the body of any old primordial man, no it's fashioned from the body of Ymir the primordial *frost* giant. They see their most prominent landscape-feature, ice, breaking up and melting to water every day. They see mountains come out from the retreating ice, and they comparatively don't see their cows bones turning into mountains any day soon, they are the basis for the milk which nourishes them, but they also have fish from the sea, sea-bird-eggs, seal meat, sinew, skin and blubber, moose and reindeer bone, hide sinew and meat. So their myths adapt to the world they live in, and can clearly see around them.
This shifting focus from the cow as a necessary part of the creation of the world, to the frost-giant Ymir being broken up to form it mirrors their migration to the north and 'makes sense' in the eyes of the people living around glaciers breaking up and icebergs floating off.
In a region where the people witness the creation of the sea and the emergence of mountains continuously every single day, by something other than what their creation-myth says, might start questioning whether their creation myth is wrong. And they might adapt their myth to 'fix' the misunderstanding that they can clearly see the solution to. What if the cow was not sacrificed, and Yemo was not a man of flesh and blood as "we" thought, but a giant of frost like "we" can clearly see.
Comparatively, as you say, in a region where the cow is your one and only lifeline, it is the basis for your continued existence, "of course" it's the basis from which the world was made as well.
The myth has little reason to change when the basis of life for the people living in the region has changed little as well.
To find the oldest myth, don't look for the most 'intact elements', look for the most intact lifestyle. Where has life changed little, where did it comparatively change much?
Ultimately though, the 'theme' of the story is what is most important for the people living their life in accordance to the ritual, as it lays the foundation for the reciprocal cycle of sacrifice between man and gods, regardless whether it was the cow, the frost-giant, the man or the serpent which was sacrificed. What matters is that the ritual for which the priests oversee and the king is responsible, and the common folk participate in, continues. As they all 'know' that the nature of the world depends on this sacrifice, regardless of who was first sacrificed exactly.
Can you please speak about the concept of taking up the runes? And what that essentially means?
I have a video about the Mead of Poetry, and I think that maybe of interest, as it explains how I think the Runes. You can watch it here: ua-cam.com/video/moNWKwEBE44/v-deo.html
Hey can you do a video on the influences on the original Indo-European myths?
My next video will appeal to you then... it is out Saturday so I hope you watch it :)
Wow amazing instant subscriber
Thank you for watching and letting me know. I hope you enjoy some of the other videos too.
hey, do you have a video where you explain about the stuff behind you? the figurines & stuff.
I will be making one in the next month, so watch this space.
@@Crecganford ok thanks!
I have a question for you. Do you think that Proto Indo religion had ideas about reincarnation or do you think it was more of an afterlife? Thanks! Great channel
Thank you for watching, and I have made a few videos about death in recent months, and I best answer this question through these. Happy watching!
Do you also go to the countries and landscapes that hold the ancient sites and cultures, which you speak of? I implore you to, as it broadens our understanding, as much as it can anyway, to at least the micro-geography of the area. The personal aspect of it
Thank you for watching, and I have travelled extensively when I was younger, and next year I plan to travel again , and will probably make UA-cam videos from those places.
That kind of blows my mind that we used to think of Old Norse as separate from Indo-European mythology. Especially when you consider the Mythology of most Rus, Slav, Germanic, and Norse Shamanism and Pagan roots are almost identical and share the same Pantheon just with different names like "Irminsul" for Odin in the Germanic groups, that and some of the totems swapped places as the god's prominent totem Germanic tribes associated Irminsul with the Stag Totem instead of the Raven Totem like the Norse with Odin. I have no idea who adopted the mythology from who though.
I will talk about how these mythologies came to be soon, it's complicated, but it is a journey worth knowing.
@@Crecganford now I've got something to look forward to 😊
Do any of these very early miss involve dogs because I’m interested, particularly in how early dog showed up in mythology
Yes, I have a couple of videos about dogs, who were very much involved in the mythology of death.
Curious to know what your thoughts are regarding the reasoning of human or animal sacrifice which involved the spilling of blood . Blood , a living beings essentiel element of their life force. In the ancestors viewpoint , was the spilling of blood necessary to continue reciprocity between man and the cosmos ?
Possibly to funnel aggression away from a group/tribe through ritualized killings. Or simply as a mean for the priest class to control.
@@TJ-hs1qm yes but think about it … why the necessity of blood release and sacrifice ? What did they see that was so intricate to the giving and birthing of Life Itself? That was almost on the level of god like ? What more powerful awe inspiring moment then of life springing forth ?. Creation and birthing of life is an extremely important event in Homo sapiens awareness and existence
Hi Jon. I was reading about the new little mermaid movie and remembered that Ariel's father is Triton and wondered if you've come across any evidence of Triton being related to Trito. I just feel that the similarity in words is too close to rule it out. Or if you've already covered this somewhere. I've been watching all your videos for about 3 months now but still have so many to see.
Whilst the names are cognate, they are not connected, with Triton being named after his trident, and Trito being name for being the third member of the people who walked the Earth.
Would love to see a video of you discussing your own gods.
Thank you for watching. I try and keep this channel academic, but I may start another channel one day discussing the theological side of things.
Great content. What I am not clear about are the constant parallels made to the babylonians myths. I thought the babylonians where heirs to the Sumerians, who were not Indo Europeans. Could someone explain the connection?
Cultural Exchange. Hittites where Part indogermanic. Hyksos had indogermanis in Egypt. Cultural approbation is a historical constant. And some things are just how thought patterns of ancient people worked.
Perhaps you are unaware that the only way white people are capable of explaining how they came about is by writing themselves into history. Have you ever wondered why white people and their cousins are always discovering something? Let that sink in. As a black man I find it quite strange that a people who collectively believe in their superiority over others, must steal those people's history and or insert themselves into the narrative. White people are not human beings according to western science. See David Reich of Harvard. White people and their cousins are literally pretending to be Black people. This is why white people have an almost biological hatred for the truth. I write as one who has studied history from primary sources and white people are not who you think they are.
@@davidbenyahuda5190crazy talk
@@terranman4702 I get your point, however, Hittites came along after the Sumeriens. I thought the Genesis myths had a Sumerian origin. The Sumerians had already written down their myths in their own language, neither semitic nor Indo European, long before the Indo Europeans came into the picture. There is something I do not understand with the chronology.
@@laurentdrozin812 Where just examples. Of course you are right, there is big connection between Sumerian and Hebrew genesis narrative. And in Babylonian Exile the old testament was even more influenced. But Sumerians is as far as we can look back thanks to scripture. Before them every tradition was verbally. Interestingly, Sumerian isn't just not Indo-European. It ain't a semitic language neither. Those came later and took over. You are right. So we can't even reconstruct how that language came to be and who influenced it.
Mr. White, you have no idea how correct you are about the difference between happiness and passing joys. What you’re saying regarding this, is very much related to one of the other discoveries that I’m developing. You’re very close to how I explain it. Eventually, the theory negates all sensibility in competition. It’s hard to understand the connection before thoroughly exploring all those interwoven rabbit holes.
My biggest recognizable deficit presently, is in understanding the Proto-indo European histories. Because of the Koryos, I now need to both learn about your world, and rethink all my previously believed history lessons.
Deciphering love was already a far easier accomplishment. It seems that the more I discover about the Koryos history, the more I realize how much deeper these bunches of rabbit holes are going to take me. I fear that I’m not even close to reaching the bottoms yet.
My sleeves are rolled up, back to work...
Cheers!
Thank you for watching, and your comment, You may like my next video then, it is about giants, but don’t let that fool you. The end is very much about order vs chaos and the happiness it brings. I hope you watch it when it comes out on Saturday.
@@Crecganford I've got your bell dung so I'll watch it asap. Though, I would be very interested in discovering that my theory of love was already realized during ancient times, I haven't found any hints to it yet.
My theory, put VERY shortly, states that love has mass. Therefore, it can be measured. Understanding this allows us understand it's naturally functioning program, and purpose.
Simply put, I can explain to people how to live happily.
Maybe not, but another possibly related theory that I'm working on is regarding mental balance. It basically states that pill prescribing psychologists do not understand their science. If they did, then they'd probably go out of business.
In both theories I am removing the chaos and revealing the order.
I'm obviously not going to type it all up. My comments are commonly long but that would be too much, even for me.
If you're interested i'd be happy to return the favors that you've given to me in developing my hidden Koryos hypothesis. just hit me up.
Cheers for all you're doing mate!
I am trying to find answers. I am from a very long British history.
I am trying to sort out history and the impact 19:02 migration and invation...Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire, then Germaniaic, then the vikings.
I appreciate the work you have done trying to find Proto-Endo-Eruropean ...
I feel it difficult to determine what would be closest to my at ancient and what survived.
It is hard to accept, languages have been completely destroyed or a simminated.
I do grasp what you said about Proto Endo European. They shared similar views and separate views when warning against each othrer...which makes sense....
But what I am trying to find out if I British, pre invaded BY Roman's or am I am actually part Germeric or Celtic, Gaelic. Or worse, my heritage's is lost most of its language and beliefs. ...
I would like sożme guidance.
Gaelic and Celtics video ofter Irish or Scottish, eliminating any British heritage.
Even if you can't help me, a simple explanation would be nice. And no, I am talking an early times like the the Tudors.
We are not all of royal blood... 25:24
I think you first need to really work out the question you want to ask... your culture is where you grew up, your heritage, well you may need a DNA test if you're confused.
What Robert Sepher couldn’t do you did so beautifully.
Thank you for your kind words.
Thanks for the videos, truly amazing work that deserves to have more attention.
I have a purely speculative idea based on the similarities of sounds and etymology, please don’t take it seriously.
In Russian, we use the word “imya” for “name”, it both has same PIE roots, but it’s still unknown how did this form came to the Slavic languages. It seems to be really close to the Yemo and in a concept, could’ve a meaning of not a physical twin of the man (Manu), but his state of a mind (physical person and his thoughts). Therefore, human makes the surrounding chaotic world out of his thoughts. Not sure how it’s going with a cow; the only thing I found is PIE root for the bull: *bhel- which supposedly was used to describe a bright or shiny round objects, so the whole speculative meaning would be: “human consumes the sun energy and makes the world out of his thoughts.” Truly biological, but not an accurate interpretation, I guess :)
Very interesting ~
Thanks for this. I always look for the similarity of sound, too. And Yemo means nothing to me, so has puzzled me very much. Naming seems to go along with creation.
@@watermelonlalala yemo may be derived from sanskrit word yama
You could possibly connect bhel to bel/Baal and to the crown of Hathor, the golden sun disc caught in the horns of a bull.
Bel is the Persian high god (Sun/fertility,) and Baal, also a fertility god, is associated with bulls.
I think it's more likely to be something along the lines of "first was produced Man, the doer, the active principle; and from there was produced that which is created, the abundance of things."
Manu can either mean "man" or "hand." In either case we think of doing. Yema may mean "twin," or it may have similar meaning to gema, which indicates "spring shoots." In either case, again, both represent increase. Twins are often "bonus" babies, unexpected increase. You expect one, you get two....
Think about the Jewish/Hebrew creation: in the beginning was the Word ("idea, inspiration,") and the Word was with God (the Creator).... Granted an idea isn't quite the same thing as a creation unless you think of it as a blueprint (what's the word I want? Not avatar...template, archetype....) Essence.
That is "Stewie" from Family Guy over your left shoulder and @ 22:03! Who you trying to fool!! LOL!
Haha!
Seems to be broad agreement between:
west towards Europe vs. east towards India & Iran
agriculturalists vs. pastoralists
Ferryman across water vs. bridge over stream
(water central to myth vs. water not central)
no judgement vs. Judgement
centum vs. satem
R1b vs. R1a
To a degree, but we clearly see the Indo-Iranians add the bridge after the Centum/Satem split, and so this is more of the pivot point as opposed to East vs West, as it is these traditions that spread around most of the IE landscape apart from the extremes, such as NW and SW Europe, and Siberia (some of the Centum split headed that way).
If I remember correctly there exist in the norse myths the two speculative beings Regin and Ginregin as first immortals before the birth of Ymir. These would be the ones who „send“ the heat of muspelsheim to the ice of niflheim as described in the edda. Do you think these could be an earlier or later variant to the concept of the two brothers Mannus and Yemo? Because it doesnt seem plausible to me that Mannus and Yemo are neither gods or men. Maybe ahura mazda and ahriman developed later out of this image.
Hi Rebu, Sorry I missed your comment when you first posted it, I'm just doing some tidying up and I saw I hadn't replied, and you raise an interesting point. My view would be that as it doesn't appear in the Poetic Edda, only Snorri infers it, and then not explicitly, and Snorri is writing a book on Skaldic Poetry first and foremost and so contradicts himself and creates narrative; and because to do so would differentiate the mythology from the other Indo European cultures, gods having a beginning and an end. To me, it would be most likely an addition to the Indo European myth made after it is established in North West Europe. Although I would like to do a video on this now you mention it, and it is an interesting piece of Teutonic mythology that not so many people are aware of.
@@Crecganford Oh, don´t worry. I´m amazed how much you answer to your viewers comments. Your right, it is probably a later addition and one could argue that this concept emerged due to christian influence. Nevertheless I am looking forward to see your video on this topic! Btw in this context it seems to me that possibly the triad of first beings in norse mythology is related to the concept on of Regin and Ginregin, when thinking on the existence of the folk of Muspelsheim before the creation of Ymir. Following this idea I wonder if Buri/Bor is etymological related to bovis and is in direct relation to Audhumbla, meaning that he is the owner of Audhumbla like in greek or celtic mythology in regards to devine cattle. So maybe Surt and Bor resemble Regin and Ginregin? But on the other hand this could just be the typical skaldic playing with words... ;)
@@rebu1483 Interesting thoughts there, and Buri and Bor origins have always interested me, but the Norse pantheon had a shuffle between 2 and 3 thousand years ago and I think that also didn't help in the mixing of myth. I will touch on this in my next video, and I'm sure many videos in the future :)
Awesome !
Thank you!
I will have to look at this twice or thrice to get the point exactly but it is very interesting..
Please ask any questions
I understand your struggle. Anthropology can be a bit vague at times because it is un like history that deals with highly specific places & times.
@@tsemayekekema2918 Yes, I struggle to know how much to say and in how much detail to go, and how much to repeat as some people wouldn't have seen my previous videos. If you have any thoughts or suggestions please let me know. I'm always happy to listen.
Please don't apologise for speculation, it can be helpful and academics do it all the time, sometimes to an absurd degree.
I appreciate that, and that is why I do it, but some academics do frown on it.
Almost got a like from the introduction alone, I'm all ears now.
Thank you for your kind words!
So the crusifiction of Jesus has its origin in the old practise of " sacrifacing man, or the King? Was there also a story about " the kings return" told in that same narrativ , ( in the protoindian creationmyth?)
Thanks
Well explained. As A Christian minister I understand that the Old Testament is written from the Hebrew scribes perspective and obviously for the Hebrew people. Christians have adopted this text and say, "Oh this must be what really happened". Can there be a God super being out there? Absolutely. When we die, perhaps we will get a fuller "understanding of all things". Certainly I think we do exist as spirit entities after physical death. Going back to the Creation story. It seem obvious to me that there is more to the story than the scriptural accounts.
Thank you for watching this, and taking the time to comment. It is very much appreciated.
Is the bovine archetype the same as the Egyptian Goddess ‘Hathor’?
Hi, that's an interesting question, and whilst my Egyptology isn't at a particularly high level right now, I do believe Hathor was a daughter of another god. And for this reason, any similarities maybe coincidental. But I would have to do more research to find out for sure.
I've tried over and over but there's no volume or sound for this video now!?
It all looks good here, I'm not sure what could be wrong?
@@Crecganford no one else seems to have this problem either, I'm just making sure with closed captioning. Thanks so much for including CC!
Thank you Bard.
And thank you for watching.
I love the subject and find your accent difficult...I think it is some heavy Cockeysville.
Ancient words of wisdom!
Thank you.
subscribed
Thank you for your support.
Please, what can be known of the role of women and goddesses in indo european myths?
I will do a video on this, but one of the issues is that women would of had myths told, but more focused on feminine traits, and these were never written down due to the nature of the male dominated world (this is a generalization, but I've only a minute to write each reply). And so may of these female myths were lost. But I will talk about this more one day.
For agricultural people, cows are about ploughs, meat, fuel and fertilizer
@Anonymous quite so. At least at some point, the cow became sacred. An anthropologist whose name I can’t remember argues that the soil is difficult to work without a plough animal. He thought the temptation to eat the cow unwisely on a bad year was the (reductionist) reason the bovine was sacred. I’m looking forward to learning more!
Thankyou.
Breathtaking bookshelf artifact display, especially the Venus/Fertility Goddess group!
Motivation. Man thinks: I need a universe to live in, but I don't want to use my own brains to create the clouds, I will create a twin and use HIS brains to create the clouds. Now, I need some food..."
Haha! That made me laugh :)
Wanna do something on the old phoenician celts from Basque?
The Basques I am definately interested in.
Im sure they are connected to the amorites suprisingly. Spearheading the iron age technology and brought it to palestine where domestication of sheep evolved at apx the same time as it did in Basque territory. There are also megaliths there and close is the river of crossing over, the Ebro river. These celts must be semites with red hair and rusty iron, worshiping primarily mars and aries.
Blow the shofar!
Does the idea of the king sacrificing himself survive into any royal rituals or is it just a mythological trope?
He sacrifices himself for his people to survive, he would die… you could argue even Jesus did this as “King of the Jews”, but I think Jesus is a myth too. I’m not sure there are any recent examples of this in history but that is a good question and one I shall look at to see if there is an answer. Thank for watching and taking the time to comment.
My spiritual master, Sri Dharma Pravartaka Archarya, a dharmic Archarya and dr. In south asian studies says PIE language and myth isnt true. Would you say there is a reasonable case to be made to say it isnt true? Is it in the realm of possibility that Aryan is a behaivoral category and not necessarily a racial one?
Well if you can explain all the language and mythical similarities in another way that is more probable, then maybe you are onto something. But personally, having produced hours of academic material on it, I think my take on it is a rather compelling argument.
I heard somewhere that the melting of Lake Aggasiz was possibly the cause for some flood myths
I'm sure it helped influence many of the myths.
Correct me if im wrong but i believe i've heard about Vikings beliving in reincarnation, but like mainly within the family.
I don’t think this was a common belief, but some did assume they would meet again in another life, possibly post Ragnarok.
@@Crecganford Found this by googling real fast. "There is evidence that the Norse believed in reincarnation where one's hugr would pass into the body of a newborn relative while one's hamingja continued on in the family at large and one's fylgja seems to have just ceased to exist at the person's death." that's what i was refering to. I think it also had something to do with names, as u can see im not too well read on the topic but.
How does man become a part of nature? through burial and the scarlet worms.
This suggests that they at some point understood soil biology, a subject hardly understood today.
They understood bodies decayed and disappeared into "nature", but I wouldn't suggest they understood the biological mechanisms that happened as part of the decay process.
@@Crecganford they could simply have observed it. I think rain worms/scarlet worms are a normal part of the decomposing process in soil. But seeing and understanding is not necessarily the same, so I get your point of view
@@SuperBjanka The worm eating at the root of the tree, one of the best images out of North myth.
Thank You Crecganford , still trying to figure out why My Husband kept a very large Gold ( or Bronze color ) Bulls Head in a our clothes closet , A Taurus ♉️ . He said It was a mask . And asked again about recently , No answer .
There could be a few reasons, but if it makes him happy let him be :)
⚪️🤍@@Crecganford My Sidereal Ascendant is Taurus , However I dont think thats why ( ?? )🤍🙏🏻⚪️
So all of the instances of warfare is what again?
I wonder if indo-iranian cattle and European cattle being genetically distinct from each other, coming from two different sources, has anything to do with the difference in myth between the two areas.
I'm not sure that is the case, I think it came down to beliefs of the afterlife influencing what people in the present thought, and the use of the cow in creation myths as they evolved. But I'm open to listen to any evidence if it ever comes up. Great question, and thanks for watching.
I was thinking about the odd cow parts of these stories. Puzzled by it. I realized the Bible also has a part in this. The marriage of Jacob to Leah and then Rachel. He desired Rachel because she was beautiful but Leah turned him off because she had COW EYES. Well, if you look at a cow, their eyes remind ME of the actor Bella Lugosi when he did that mesmerizing thing on people to influence them. We know we got ancient woo woo stuff and I wonder if this cow thing might be related somehow.
If your interested in more Bovine creation myth check out Waaq religion from the horn.
Thank you, I will.
How do these myths connect to the dieties of the Indeo Europeans ? I heared they had a female godess which represented the earth and that the sun was either seen as the eye of the Sky father or as a female godess herself, yet Manus created both of these, did Manus create those gods then ? I just wonder if there is a know connection to the cosmology here.
There was a Sky Father and Earth Mother, and Death and Dawn were goddesses too. I've yet to make a video about the early IE pantheon, and so perhaps I shall do that. Thanks for watching, and the question!
@@Crecganford Yea a video about that topic would be great as it is especially hard to find info atleast online about this. i always wondered how for example the earth mother who represents earth connects to the idea that the world is made from a "transformation" of the sacrifice of Yemo
@@clibfilm I'll make a video about what happens to Yemo first, as that is interesting and ties into some of the videos I've just made, but will look at doing this in the next couple of months :)
@@Crecganford very nice, thanks :)
Very fascinating. I would be very interested to know if it is possible to know the Celtic/Gaulish version of the Proto Indo-European creation story which they would have had prior to Caesar.
There is no way to know this for sure, although it would almost certainly have similarities to the IE myth. I did tell a version in a video on this channel based on what we know of Celtic myth, and overlaid it on top of the template of the IE myth. But it is pure conjecture.
The migration of Vedic Aryans from North West India to Europe and Eurasia of the Druhyu tribes(Druids), the Alinas, the Anus etc resulted in the settlement of the Celts and Gauls, Germans, Balts, Hittites and the Iranians occurred approximately between 3900 to 1900 BCE
The truth about this migration has *rarely* been told, firstly because Western Indologists hardly believe them in view of their idea that the Aryans migrated to India. Secondly because of the Christian and Islamic civilizations, whatever religious rituals and mythologies remained were destroyed as the work of the devil or as paganism and that did not merit study.
The Druids / Celts followed Vedic practices like idol worship, worship of multiple gods, nature, food offerings in worship, philosophy of non destruction of soul, belief in rebirth after death, worship of ancestors, etc. Julius Caesar, (book no. 6) while describing them, mentions that they were experts in Religion, Philosophy and Astronomy, and they were doing research in, debating and interpreting, those fields. This is similar to the way Upanishads were formed through debates, discussions and interpretation of Vedas , Hindu main scriptures. The Druids chanted something similar to Vedas. Vedas were not written, but orally transmitted. Similarly the Druids did not keep a written record of the chanting. They did not read out from books. Those who chanted Vedas were under strict regulations and disciplines; the Druids also followed strict codes of conduct. Like this, the Druids can be compared to Brahmins in Vedic tradition in many ways.
There is much evidence found in Ireland, to show that Druids lived in Central Europe. History of Ireland mentions that the Druids came to Ireland from Central and Western Europe, which is North of Ireland. Since the word North was mentioned, none thought it prudent to trace their origins to India, in the East.
Apart from this, when Greeks and Romans brought Celts under their rule, they changed the Celtic names. They changed the names of places and people to Greek and Latin and gave new interpretations. Namaste.
Idk if it’s just by chance or they are linked but I do find it’s interesting the Norse sun god the Roman sun god the Hindu sun god road on horse drawn chariot and even the Greek sun god too except the Greek sun god road on a chariot pulled by Pegasus but I mean that’s prob linked to the ethers sense all Pegasus are horses with wings and can fly
17:10 Correction: The Vedic equivalents of priest, warrior, and commoner are Brahmin, Kshatriya, and Vaishya, respectively. The Shudra caste was ranked below the original three.
Shudra is a commoner.
Vaishya = trader
@@visi9856 Traders are commoners too. They get an official caste to go with it. Shudras are relegated to beneath caste status.
@@johanna-hypatiacybeleia2465 it is dalits not shudras
It means that people are quick to believe interesting stories that seem to answer their unanswerable questions.
They should give those stories a name, maybe religion, it might catch on…
I find your videos a little hard to follow and I have been wondering why. I figured out that your prologue goes into great detail about the subject without having talked about the actual subject first. I feel like I am haning in the air while you are referring to things you know very well but that don't make a whole lot of sense until you give the actual example. so in this case, until you actually describe the myth, I am lost as to what you mean. I find your videos really interesting and informative but for this reason also a tiny bit frustrating :)
It is a difficult balance as some people want more background, some people want more myth. I will always do my best to find the right balance and appreciate your feedback, it all helps me make better content.
This sounds like egyptian concept of heru/set.
Order out of chaos
The dogun of Mali still value heru/set and this concept of creation
Yes, there is that commonality in many creation myths about order out of chaos. And there maybe some influence from Indo-European here, as we see that with Set and the Cattle Raiding myth. But it is difficult to prove for sure, and could be an inherent human trait in belief.
@@Crecganford in my humble opinion I would think there is some kind of influence. Possibly from the early agriculturalists and pastoralists that ventured into North Africa.
There's evidence of European cattle in the sahara atleast 7,000 years ago. Well before dynastic times
@@dannybond7187 Indeed, there was definitely trade going on, but DNA evidence is weak right now to show a assured and strong connection, but yes, there was a connection and influence :) I will also talk about Egypt one day, and am talking to a couple of well known academics in Egyptology to ensure my work is accurate.
@@Crecganford look forward to hearing it. Thanks for your effort
So Manus came before Dyeus?
Yes, in the Indo-European myths it looks that way… the reason maybe two-fold, and I will talk about this one day as I’m still getting my thoughts together on how best to present this.
Still yes
I can not realy se the farmers veiw on the cow in north mythology. When the cow feeds Ymer who then becomes the whole world? That is more of a pastorial view?
The pastoral view headed towards Persia/India, and which is why the cow became sacred. In the west, there was still much agricultural focus, which is why the cow exists but is often suckled for milk as opposed to sacrificed. I hope that helps.
Lore of The Indo-European Creation Myth: What Does It Really Mean momentum 100