Jeep Crank-No-Start Case Study (SI Ep. 15.5)
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- Опубліковано 26 жов 2019
- Another head scratcher on the infamous Staten Island. Steve Scott (Simply Diagnostics) and I tackle this 2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee that cranks over fine, but usually doesn't fire up...only when it's warm!
Follow along, take some notes, and see if you can answer the quiz questions at the end of the video :)
Enjoy!
Ivan - Авто та транспорт
Old school! 1 tooth off on those distributor style drives has nailed so many backyard mechanics and techs.
Yeah I remember back in mechanic school back in 1981 when I don't think we have any electronic distributors we had installed one back into a Chevy V8 one tooth off or maybe it was two teeth off anyway I can still to this Stacy the four foot long stream of fired spitting back out through the carburetor LOL
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Should asked I have a good cam crank on this. 3 groups of 4 in the 1 cam square wave. Just had one last week that was counting ghost misfires due to crank sensor air gap but would only happen during 2st warm up trip of the day
This job was so much fun, Ivan, you're awesome 👍
Scrap Heap Jeeps!
@@defendermender4959 🤣
because it was its companion firing
Hi Steve, hell yeah man, it was a blast having you ride along on the Staten Island Express! Hopefully next time won't be too long in the future :)
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haha no tooth pick required !!! love it.
I love the joy that comes over you guys when it starts
The winner could get a slice of Staten Island pizza, or maybe a tube of Denso Anti-Seize!
I want the denso anti seize! Its hard to get them... lol
Ivan isn't going to give up any of his prized stash of Anti-Seize!
Mechanic: When and who replaced the sensor assembly? Customer: I did.
Love simplicity...those engines had a good reputation too. The world needs more straight 6 engines under the hood ! They have perfect 360 divided by 6 firing orders in the least.
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Looks like Steve enjoys his trips across the Pond!
@Jason Bowman If he does troubleshoot across the pond, he has to remember that British engineering logic is backwards. Like "o" = on. "1"= off. And watch out for those positive ground systems too.
@@MegaGeorge1948 News to me. Are you mixing your drinks and thinking of the martians? (Sorry martians)
@@rivergate Check it out. Ivan even mentioned "British logic" in one of his past troubleshooting vlogs.
@@MegaGeorge1948 lol. Spurious myth. People should travel more, listen better, and not to be too quick to promote fabricated gossip :) Now if one was to talk about "red tape", I'd gladly join the spouting of gossip. Lol
There they are...the legends! Hey Steve and Ivan!
That was awesome guys! Kinda like the Chevy van you did a year or so ago Ivan. Well done and looking forward to more SIE challenges!
Very good diagnosis! Those old straight 6's were great engines!
Thank you Ivan and Steve. Good job. Have a blessed and safe week.
Awesome, loved to watch these case studies!!
Kudos, see those happy faces when it started..priceless :)
You are one smart cookie Ivan 😉 Great to see you riding along with the Staten Island express. 👍👍
I'm way late to the party! 😨
Another "no parts needed" fix! Sweeeeet! The critical thinking questions are making my head hurt, lol - I do better when I see something in action rather than trying to visualize it ... but I'd guess that the spark line being 2 cam humps over from the first pattern was due to it firing 180° out of phase, since the cam turns at half the speed of the crank.
Nice work fellas! Wish all you guys were together every day making vids - that would be pure GOLD. I'm sure none of you would mind that one bit, either! 👍😎🍻
Nice fix Ivan as always thank god for the scanners and the tools for the new cars of today...
thanks c u in the next video.....
Excellent fix!
Back in 70’s a friend bought a motor home at auction. Wouldn’t run 383. Distributor was off 180 degrees. I can’t remember how I diagnosed it. But we had same reaction when it ran
great job Ivan and Steve
Your videos teach better than a school . God Bless !!!
Good find! This is why , from experience, always buy OEM.
Ya because you'll lose the money you saved because you'll have to buy 2 instead of 1 oem
firebir11 yeah I did my water pump in my 2001 dodge ram 5.2 went with non OEM thermostat it's now stuck open!! thanks advance auto!!!!.😡
@@utuber2940 that must be so annoying especially if it's cold
OEM needs to be done for the important parts. Especially catalytic converters but i find aftermarket radiators work just as well as OEM
@@djentyman4002 ya that's true
ONE OF MY FIRST HERO JOBS WORKING AT THE DEALER ON A POLICE PORTAL JEEP THANKS AND THE ISLAND EXPRESS ROLLS ON .
Great job both, thanks for sharing.
Why not pull #1 plug to make certain you're on TDC on compression? It's the quick and easy way.
Start at simple stuff first; we need fuel, air and ignition (electric spark). You checked fuel rail pressure, it's good. didn't check air and went directly to ignition. Very good guess. Now pull the oil dipstick and valve cover cap. Check for engine sludge. If the oil cap/dipstick is heavily sludge-up, your sensor heads are probably carbon coated and giving bad readings. Diagnostic tool showed good readings. So it's not sensor related. Let's walk back, customer replaced a part. Check the part setup. Which you did. Very good diagnostics. Truck runs fine. In the old coil and wire ignitions, we just rotated the wires back at the rotor cap. That's easier than replunging the distributor.
Ivan, you and Stevie are the best. Good video. Let us know if you find out anymore info 👍👍👍
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Nice job guys
Very common on the 4.0 liters. The new assembly's usually come with the tool to align those properly. Obviously OEM part would be the best fix but sometimes the shops refuse so gotta make the best out of it. There is two or three available tools to set these in correct location. Good job guys had no doubt you would get it fixed
the amazing Ivan !
Good job guys. Such a simple system and yet...nothing is simple lol
Static ignition timming lives, nice one
Wow I'm impressed with myself on that one I called the fix right off the bat by the sound must be because of my new 55-inch TV on the soundbar I have LOL
Ivan, tell the pizza guy to only cut the pizza into six slices because you can't eat eight slices by yourself.
When I was a kid I owned a little Honda civic that would stumble and then die, leaving me stranded every year or so. Then the next morning when I walked or hitchhiked back to the car, it would work fine, it was a bear to diagnose! I never did solve that one, but it left me with the persistent curiosity left by the 'one that got away'. If only I had a scope that could run off the battery, ha ha.
I had a ford f250 that did that to me. It would run fine then all the sudden die and not start for several hours until it cooled down. It could be days, weeks or months in between episodes. Had spark, fuel pressure, it triggered the noid lights, everything it should have done. Like you, I had no scope and being a 95, no obd port. Also, being 15 years ago, I had no clue about the benefits of a scope.
After firing off the parts cannon a few times, installing an in cab fuel pressure gauge and seeing it wasn't a delivery issue, (I have had issues with the tank selector swith in the past) I replaced the distributor (had to pull it and separate the shaft to change the electronic ignition pickups and found it was only a little more to replace the entire thing) and never saw the problem again.
Evidently something would cause it to fire at the wrong time until it cooled down. Between towing and changing parts, I probably spent enough to purchase a scope at today's prices.
Way to go Ivan.
I've been doing a lot of thinking lately and i think i would like to become just as good as you, keith, eric o at diagnosing vehicles with complex problems. I work for a GM dealership and i'm good at what i do but no where near the level of you guys. I've been watching everyone's channel and learning tons of new way to approach problems and really helped me out over the past few years. My dream would be to get away with heavy repairs and do what Keith does but where I live.
Diadnostics is a very rich field; the learning curve always remains steep, which makes it interesting and exciting! The hard part is to figure out how to make it profitable...efficiency and process is key.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
Иван, а тебе удалось сделать прибыльным? Расходы на инструменты и приборы окупились?
Good job gentlemen 👍🎃
customer states i just went on reverse and the car stalled... N O P E ...great work brother,
This was a challenging vehicle for sure. Once a plan of attack was developed, seemed to go easier though. It would've been easier or faster with a known good correlation waveform, but you still did exceptionally well without it. Seriously great work Ivan.
Thank you for the kind words Cuba, glad you enjoyed this one! Yeah sometimes lack of information forces the technician to get creative haha :)
Awesome video wow
Your buddy had it right regarding the Snapper's reporting of cam/crank sync lost. I dunno why they seem to always say that, but on GMs, I've double checked with a Tech 2, and they say 'yes' for cam/crank sync when the Snapper says no. I even had a friend who is an engine rebuilder verify with a dial indicator that the engine ( a 4.3 vin W in this case) was mechanically in time, with a new GM distributor, and the tech 2 said yes, and the Snapper STILL said lost. At least on the Fords and Jeeps you can move the cam driver around. In your case, Lord only knows what the root failure was.
hey guys great video very smart with the scan tool just like Eric o.
As always u done good sir old school 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
"Heep starts no crank"...
I drive FLA to NYC every month.
The majority cars I see stuck on 95 are:
Mercedes-Benz,BMW and Audi then Jeep..
Keep em coming keeps my rusty Chevy roll back and shop busy...
Compression or split overlap where both valves are open evenly is the other choice for piston at TDC exhaust is closing intake is opening
The tooth joke :):):)
Is the next one the Audi? Let's learn about the over-engineering issues :)
Nicely done! Just what it needed, not the OEM sensor but it sounded good
Steve looks tired. I think Staten Island wore him out. That's funny "one tooth off" but Steve has two teeth missing. Those 4.0 are great engines. Did the spark occurrence change because it's a waste spark system?
Nice channel, subbed and featured.
Thank you!
I don't always comment but I always give you a thumbs up. Great Video . Richard's Mobile Auto and Air.
This is awesome 😎
Seen that issue a couple times fyi the sensor is still available from jeep, but the shaft part is long discontinued
I think it would run with the waste spark, but but not with the injectors putting fuel in at the wrong time.
So I would say no, not without a bunch of backfiring.
This used to mess a lot of people up rebuilding a SBC, because when you install the timing chain with marks lined up on gears, it was 180* out. So before dropping the dizzy in, you have turn the crank one full revolution before installing it.
Q.2 Ans. A lot of systems will double fire until cam sync is confirmed, while starting. On this motor it is only relevant for injector timing, due to only having two coils. Q.1 Top dead center should be set to syn with dist so injectors will fire at right time, even if the electronics will try to 'smooth' the timing out. Poor mechanical syn will confuse the system, as what was corrected in this video.
Great video.. As always I have learned something new.. but I'm with the timing light approach to diagnose this one. A good one will tell how many degrees it's out. Quick feedback with very little work.. The flip side is how many people carry timing lights working on today's cars in Europe.. Only my ten cents input.
Nice job
Your buddy has a good sense of humor.I think Michael Strahan would have punched you for telling him No toothpick is required.
Great way to spend a Sunday afternoon. I spent most of mine working on a Saturn Asta 1.8 cmp cpk corelation error ugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The last mechanic did not
Comprehend TDC for
Installation back to school
For him 🤣👍 great vidio
Being a 6 cylinder waste spark system,I recon i would run 180 out,but it runs,an oem sensor is really required then set spot on,your our some,good video .thanks.
I watched this while standing in line to ride a a roller coaster!
wow on waste spark it would run! that 6cyl was a good motor from way back I think 89 steve looks like he was over worked....he is a great guy I hope to meet everyone at tst I think wear can effect a known good wave form on timing t
Lol i like how people blame the part. When it was the incompetent person who didnt install part correctly.
On my 99 grand cherokee with the 4.0.. It ended up being BOTH the cam and crank sensors. I swapped cam sensor and it worked randomly.. So swapped out the crank sensor and put the old cam sensor back in--- it ran for a day or two, and I ended up putting on the new cam sensor as well. Both were intermittent at the same time. It was a pain. :)
Ivan the 4.0 uses the cam signal to time the injectors and coils as any other engine does. With out any reference pulse from the crank it depends on the raise and fall of the cam signal that should occur midway between the group of crank signals. If cylinders 1 and 6 come up to tdc at the same time the computer can decide who is on compression and who is on exhaust by the direction the cam signal is moving. For example if the cam signal is moving downward the computer knows the next group of 4 crank signals represent number 1 tdc , 360 degrees later the signal will be moving upward this would mean cylinder number 6 is on compression. In either case if the cam signal was out by 360 (crank) degrees the same coil would be triggered and spark would happen in both cylinders at the proper time. What would be off is injection timing. This may cause rough idle or off idle tip in problems. So does a rising cam signal represent number 1 tdc or number 6 tdc? To answer your question, yes it would run
Took that ridiculous coil plug rail off and replaced it with the K Suspension Viper coil mod so glad I did...2001 XJ
@3:35 the cam goes high on the second notch of the crank then goes low on a second notch. so you dont have 3 complete cycles of 4. at 19:30 your cam goes high in between a group of 4 and goes low after the third group of 4. this is allowing the computer to "see" a full cycle. that way it knows to fire at the end of 4 and also knows where the cycle starts and stops for not only ignition but injector timing since the shutter is open one complete revolution and closed on the second. 1-5-3 closed and 624 open or vice versa. same as the distributor it turns half a turn for each turn of the crank. if when you had that on tdc you would have looked to see if the crank signal was high or low you could have used that along with your cursers to actually display idle ignition timing on cylinder #1
I was sure it was a timing issue but had no idea how it got so far off. Good "visual inspection" eye to notice that not just the speed sensor was replaced but the entire unit. Back in the days of mechanical distributors, it was fairly common that a backyard mechanic would pull out the distributor and put it back either 180 degrees off or just one or two teeth. I didn't know Jeep was still using this method when they eliminated the mechanical distributor. Good to know!
Very cleaver, likeable man, from the UK
Crank, Timing, Fuel/Air, and spark. Back to basics
That was cool.
Go back in time old school 1 pull out number 1 spark plug 2 turn over engine bu hand till you feel compression now keep rotating engine until timing mark on crank lines up with mark on block this is always the base timing for anything you have to be #1tdc compression stroke same starting point for any engine you even need this to line up cams distributors if 1tdc is off nothing else works properly
Reverse stalls are fun lol definitely would be the end of that one Steve,
Find if the cam/crank sensors are any good. That crank signal doesn't look right to me. Also if aftermarket sensors, they may not work right with Chrysler.
@skat kat
The aftermarket sensors operate on an assumed value, which is why they don't work right.
On jeeps, anything other than NTK/OEM on oxygen sensors sends the computer into a tailspin because the computer was configured and programmed for the OEM only.
Ford is the same way with most of its parts.
Nice !
end of video critical thinking part, no it shouldn't run or very poorly if it's 180 degrees out of time, because it wouldn't fire the fuel injector at the correct intake port timing.
without thinking too much harder, it would be spraying fuel into the open intake valve around IN/EX valve overlap (non compression stroke), which is also when it would it fire the spark plug of the waste system, that should result in a large bang if it ignites the fuel, likely out the exhaust and intake both at once
I would have checked the ignition timing with a timing light
Its a coil on plug system. Where would you connect the timing light?
@@KevinWindsor1971 it's a waste spark system and it has wires
You would have had to use the inline timing light between plug and c.o.p
Then aim the light at the marks on the crank
So it was so far advanced because some plonker replaced the sensor way off.
But the engine management is still not happy, if it drives ok i would run away fast lol.
If only spark is controlled by the cam sensor and it’s a wasted spark system then 180 off wouldn’t really matter. Now 1 tooth off like this one was does matter. Nice find on the fix. Odd it ran cold, maybe different timing advance when the engine is cold?
Sweet
Man you are smart
I knew the cam sync was off as soon as I saw the scope pattern. All the Jeep 4.0L cam crank signals are the same. The rising/falling edge of the cam sensor should be in the middle of the large gap of the crank sensor signal.
Nice quick vid. The only thing that I wonder about is the cam/crank lost PID. Is that a history thing? I have never really paid too much attention to it. If it is a history related PID that seriously has some value.
Stuntman can fix it! 😈🔥
Fire her up, STUNTMAAAAAAAAHHHN
So Ivan here is my approach. Since the sensor is set based on cylinder 1 TDC and I if I suspected that the sensor was not positioned correctly this is what I would do. First I would not move anything and I would take out the number one spark plug. I would rotate the crank to TDC, which of course could be 180 off. and with an air nozzle I would shoot some air into that cylinder, you can tell if there is any resistance because both valves should be closed right? If I am on the compression stroke then when I shoot air into the cylinder, and it might and usually does move the crankshaft. Once I was sure of the compression stroke and the crank was at TDC I would look at the sensor timing position. I would know right then and there if it looked right or if it was 180 out. An old trick I used to use back in the point ignition and HEI days. You are not wrong necessarily in how you approached this it's just we just have different approaches to the same problem. I hope someday I have the opportunity to drink a beer with you, Danner, and Eric O. Until then keep trucking on.
The cam position drive was one tooth off, so was Steve!
12:00 i would maybe pull the spark plugs from all cylinders except for number 1 then rotate the engine to identify when it is at the compression stroke and then check the timing on the sensor
So it was one tooth off, but Steve has a two tooth off? Lol. Sorry Steve! Bad joke! But love Staten Island Express videos!! They're great
i could hear it sneezing into the intake when cranking, which says timing too far advanced, diagnosis over at seeing new part and hearing it. some stooge popped it back in out of sync or it needs rotated. probably a fixed style retainer so no rotation and needs teeth aligned right, so someone gets to do the job a second time, whilst eating crow :))
Good diagnosis. I’m looking at buying a newer scan tool. Do you purchase scan tools like Autel through Amazon?
the distributor models won't run with them 180 out i know for a fact. i doubt that style would run with it 180 out, but i think the cam pickup only controls fuel injection timing thats why it seemed to run fine even with 20 degrees on the cam sync. the crank sensor is for the ignition timing and it can't be adjusted. im sure the instructions say to install the cam sensor with no.1 at tdc compression stroke?
Dang I'm going to have to watch it again. I thought the ignition timing changed when he moved the cam.
It controls the timing of both ignition and injection
21:05, when trigger jumps like that, filter that channel, because it was jumping on the noise.
Опережение зажигания надо выставить при помощи timing gun. Точно так же как и на твоей XL-7. Подключаешь timing gun к катушке первого цилиндра, отключаешь автоматическое опережение в ECU (для Suzuki очень хорош Suzuki viewer для Windows, для Jeep тоже можно найти, но я думаю в твоем сканере есть эта функция). После этого вставляешь требуемое для данного двигателя опережение зажигания. Когда попробуешь один раз сразу все станет понятно.
Не, на этом Jeep умная система зажигания: Комп смотрит на положение коленвала и сам регулирует опережение. Suzuki XL7 примитивнее; смотрит только на датчик распредвала, который можно выставлять с помощью timing light :)
How many hours would be charged to this repair?
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Exselete diagnostic amigo nice video salude noel matute ere el mejor. Amigo
learn how to type, take some classes.
Never mind my idea. The dist may be off but I dont think 180. I would check the ign module next.
Very nice. But why would it run ok until hot then misfire because of a cam sensor that's out of time and doesn't change? Wouldn't have thought that would happen. And why didn't that cause a cam/crank correlation code?
Did the internal parts on the sensor rotate? No way it jumped a tooth on the gear without being loose or having an internal mechanical issue. WYF?
ohh, I see shiny new parts in there, so who replaced what and got it set wrong ........
that's my first thought at seeing new parts, and hearing runs while cold then doesn't, open loop/closed transition :)