Props to the new owner that can swap a cam outdoors in under an hour! I will not fret about doing one next time the occasion arises! As for you, Ivan, another great diag!
Well, he did it 17 thousand times before 😂😂😂😂😂. There is a guy on UA-cam who can take the Penstar 3.6 top with a blind fold, which is really most of the job. Still, don't get too excited. This is an 8 hour job for most of us. However, a crazy business idea is for the two in the video to team up: "We fix your car within an hour or your money back."
Nice diagnosis! I’ve run into the same issue before on an Infiniti with a VQ37. It came from another shop that did an oil change but only put in a couple quarts of oil. Owner took off, left their parking lot at WOT and stopped a few miles down the road when the oil pressure and check engine came on and the engine was rattling. Towed it to my shop, had timing codes for both banks, no oil on the dipstick but the engine oil (when draining) was clean with no debris. Rattle coming from the timing chain area, timing was obviously off on both banks when looking at cam/crank signals. I recommended an engine replacement, but because the shop that did the oil change was paying for it, they requested just the timing chains/guides since there wasn’t metal in the oil. Had another tech do the timing chains and guides, put it back together, engine was quiet and ran fine but was still setting a cam/crank for one of the intake cams. I checked the cam/crank sensors again on the scope, verified that the cam setting the code still read incorrect. Since another tech did the chains, I immediately suspected that the base timing may be off. Luckily on the VQ37, the timing marks can be seen with the engine assembled. Checked that, marks were dead on. The cam sensors read a reluctor wheel that is pressed on to the cam gear/phaser. I came to the conclusion that the reluctor must have shifted, since the cam sensor signal was perfect but shifted a fixed amount. Took the valve cover off on that bank to have a better look at the reluctor and sure enough, it was shifted slightly compared to a picture of a new part. The shop paying for the repair started whining that the didn’t want to pay the $500 for a new cam phaser plus labor, so I told them they could either take it as is with the check engine light on or forfeit the warranty on the repair and I will try to physically move the reluctor, with the understanding that could make it worse and they would still be on the hook to pay for the repair. They opted to have me try to move the reluctor. I held the cam with a wrench and tapped the reluctor with a brass drift and a hammer (took a fair amount of force to move). I got it close enough by eye to make the computer happy and keep the light off (the calculated difference was like 3 degrees). Definitely not a fix or preferred repair in my book, but the other shop was being shitty and the owner of the car was bitching to us, plus the shop paying for the repair had voluntarily surrendered any warranty coverage.
FANTASTIC!! That's an awesome diag & case study!! I totally geeked out here! That guy was just as amazing, swapping out cams in that fashion. Very amazing job!
The movement of the reluctor wheel is caused by the twisting of the cams under load . These cams are hollow . This is very common in the pentastar engine . Great diagnostics with the cam signals and no crank reference. I like your use of mathematics .
The old parts cannon is so overdone even by workshops, I know this is an older video but your level of knowledge exceeds most electrical repairers who would not know how to correlate the mechanical aspect to what they are seeing electrically and same goes for mechanics lack of ability to correlate electrically what they are seeing mechanically
'I don't always know.' I don't always know when I think I know what I know. To open my eyes and my mind a bit wider and search a bit farther, hoping to find what I need to know as I grow a bit stronger inside. To be careful when choosing someone I may share a bit of my trust with. Might just make for a bit of a better day. One thing's for sure, though, I won't always know when I think I know what I know. Have a better day, Jekelex Here I go again working on this thing again. Kinda funny that I don't feel as stressed now. I see it s something for everyone to loook at and maybe have a better day. Guess it depends who reads it. I wonder if kids might learn more if they had something easy to read and be motivated. I find it works most when dealing with people. So easy to mijudge at times. Just a thought. Hope you don't mind me taking up a minute or 2. I do enjoy your vids.
Your customer reminds me when I had a 2006 Nissan Xterra. First time I opened the engine I had taped, marked, and photographed everything. It took me 2 hours to remove the valve covers. Couple times later I can tear that engine to top to bottom apart in less than 20 minutes and put it back in an hour 😂 . Excellent diagnosis Ivan
Omg. I had this same scenario on a Range Rover Evoque I owned. Only 5 minutes in. Can’t wait to find out. Wow. Reluctor wheel likely got hot due to sludge and rotated by itself. What a find Ivan.
@@toronado455 Yea, it might be, the newer multi OHC VVT designs all use very long timing chains and really, really don't do well with idiots who cannot even change out the oil.
Very cool diagnosis and then the owner steps in and has all parts needed and repairs his van. The owner also cleans the sludge out of his motor. Some people should not be allowed to own vehicle because changing oil cost to much. Not many owners can fix their own. They drive it to the shop and bitch about cost to fix. Kudos to the owner mechanic. 👍👍 and Ivan to confirm the issue. I really need a Pico scope bad. 👍👍
It is too bad the original owner who did not maintain it properly was not the one to have paid for the repair! I find it hard to feel for a customer that brings problems on themselves. I do have part of a heart for people who get stuck paying for other peoples stupidity. Ivan is one of the few good guys out there that is worth his weight in gold, as they say. We need more techs like Ivan in the world.
The waveforms look good for the camera. The pico also has "Math Channel", where you could do A-B, to quickly see the magnitude of difference between cam1 and cam2. It might help speed diag up a bit, as you don't have to stop the scope and eyeball the difference. It's under Tools, Math Channel.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Wow i do not get to use our Pic scope nearly as often and much as I see other guys. Im almost curious what route a dealer tech would have taken to get to this point. As long as the ending result was a fix, thats a good thing. But you right def not a common issue.
Was looking for something different but wound up here. Had to watch whole video, great diagnostic approach. Been doing this for over 25 years and you just taught me a new and simple way to attack an issue like this.
Ivan, wow, parking lot repair!! Swapping cams and owner saying not leaving until it's fixed! That's dedication right there man! He sure knows what he's doing! Wow, you diagnosed with cam correlation issue under an hour lol! He must have watched your Russian repair fixes!! Nice video! Wished to see more of his putting it together! That would be fun to watch what he did!! Lol. Awesome job!
FYI if you search on '2027900090 Tone Wheel Check Tool Kit' you will find a tool Mopar has devised to visually inspect for a shifted tone wheel. Super expensive though for what it is. Hopefully another vendor can come out with a less expensive version. I'd venture a guess as to what is causing the tone wheel to shift in most cases is timing component failure that puts enough of an abrupt 'tug' on the sprocket to shift it. And it has probably jumped a tooth at that point. So folks are correctly putting timing kits in but not knowing the wheel has shifted as well. You get all it put back together and end up with a vehicle in the state as in this video. So it would be good to have the tool for double checking anytime you have to do a timing job on these.
Wow! Awesome diagnostic work! While having it all torn down, perfect time to replace the rockers, since they are known to go out on that motor of that vintage, but then again, the owner appears to love tearing into it, may as well wait, maybe they won't go out!
Excellent Professor Ivan, very clever on analytical diagnosis, hope last mechanic learns something about a very difficult problem. Big thumbs up for the UK Pico Scope. Great work and thanks for sharing.
I am so impressed with your knowledge and your approach. My name is Cindy. I've been trying to get my 2011 3.6 Chrysler Town and Country fixed for 4 years (since the day I bought it). I have watched Eric from South Maine and a couple of other well-respected mechanics, including you, for the last few years, religiously. I'm not a mechanic, but after having my van into many shops, and I mean, MANY, it's still not fixed. I've learned so much about vehicles since I've had no choice but to learn. I've replaced the throttle body myself last year, and I've taken the TIPM off in order to send it to California to have the fuel pump relay replaced (known issue). This, however, does not make me a mechanic. One of the last mechanics had my van 12 different times. At that point, when I got it back and it didnt start when I oicked it up (after I'd just paid for a starter... after just having one put in a few months before), I decided I'd have to learn more and try to help myself. I bought the Haynes book and I've learned a lot. I'm learning about electrical schematics now. People have changed out parts time and time again on my van, but it's still exhibiting the same problems. I've put in 2 camshaft position sensors myself, and another mechanic put one in. I'm lost, and this has consumed me. It has made me learn, but I just want this to come to an end. I have spent so much time and money that I can't focus on anything else. I keep wishing I knew a reputable diagnostics specialist such as yourself, here in Michigan. I respect you so much. Your videos are awesome! By the way, the three lines that are on your home page on your website are not clickable. After reading your bio on your site today, I wanted to check out the rest of your site. My intention was to look for a phone number. I thought perhaps since you're a superstar diagnostics man on UA-cam, you may know of somebody out towards me that I could take my van to since UA-cam mechanics talk. I am in no position to buy a new vehicle, or I would have. I'm just lost and could use some direction. I'm sorry for the long rant. Believe me, if I'd written down all of the parts that have been put in my car, I'd run out of room for in terms of character limitations 😂😂
Once again great diag Ivan my theory is that The reluctant had to have been moving a half a degree through heat cycling expansion and contraction over time
A pair of chain vice grips and a shot of vodka and i would have gotten that cam wheel synched up pronto LoL... Great video! Most definitely the lack of lubrication maintenance had to do with this. Likely frozen/cold viscous sludge did the deed.
You never need expensive tools you need the know how and the motivation to do the job anyone that says you need snap on or expensive tools to do work have never actually done work
Pine Hollow you rule. Love the videos. I am having problems with the 3.6 Pentastar in my Wrangler. I had seen your other video. I had to replace the timing set after finding a broken chain guide on bank 2. I started it up and it throws a P0017 (Crankshaft/Camshaft Timing Misalignment-Bank 1 Sensor 2) and a P0300 (Multiple Cylinder Misfire). It also show the C121C (Torque Request Signal Denied) as well. I did some data capture and the actual vs desired for intake cam 2 is just like what you showed in this video. Sometimes it is on and other times it is off by a huge negative like the video. I had thought it was a reluctor, but then started second guessing. Thought about throwing sensors, phaser, oil contol valve at it, but non of those made sense. The sensors maybe, but swapping them the issue did not follow the sensor. The only thing the sensor could be reading for those numbers is the reluctor. I dont have a scope. I am going to swap the intake cam showing the problem. Thank you for the informative videos.
I enjoyed this case study. Thank you very much for putting it out on UA-cam. I was impressed how you went back to your lab and followed up on the information that was learned from the case study. Bravo!!!!!!
I was thinking about the wave form on the good exhaust cam. Scanner Danner had one on a Toyota where the crank gear was shifted due to the crank bolt being insufficiently tightened. U and Eric had a car where I think the cam was bent. Super sleuthing. When u get on a scent, ain’t nothing getting away from u. U Bernie Thompsened it. And now “u can return the car to the customer.” Every time I watch Ivan, I get a little smarter. Thank u!!
The unstable cam position could have been air in the timing valve and cam phaser until it cleared out. I've also had an ecotec with this type of issue on both cams. Come to find out the previous mechanic swapped the cams while changing the head but installed the phasers correctly. Couldn't figure it out until I compared them to the new set he brought me. Swapped them back with the original cams and it ran great. But after researching these engines apparently the reluctor wheel can turn if the engine has been overheated. My guess is that's what happened to this one.
Isn't that a 3.6 L engine? Great to hear you are up to 200K. How often do you change the oil and transmission fluid? I have heard so many complaints about Chrysler engines this is good to hear.
The 3.6 is actually a really good engine. I have one myself (yes the trans was replaced) but the engine is a 245K and still ticking...I mean it actually ticks it has the Venerable rocker arm debacle but I understand that's not that difficult to fix in the center cylinder so maybe worth fixing.
My hypothesis (at the point PHD asked for one) is that the magnet etc on the camshaft - apparently called the reluctor wheel - is broken and physically moving around in there, more or less independently of the camshaft itself, possibly just sitting loose on top of the sensor and jiggling around. Edit: totally wrong, but that's ok
In the original 4 channel waveform, I could see that the red does not match its partner above giving me enough info to go inside which is exactly what you did but for a different reason and both of our diagnosis is the same, DAMN pressed on parts never fail to FAIL, awesome video and case study as always. I looked at the narrow, medium, and wide windows between bank 1 and bank 2.
Found the same problem Chrysler has now mad a tool to check the alignment of the reluctor rings it sets is the place of the cam sensor and it had two pins that line up with pre drilled holes in the reluctor rings
I had a Ram with the same problem during the winter. My biggest clue was that it started and ran so well even though the computer thought that it was 40 degrees off. The one I did ran very low on oil
Hi Ivan....great case study.....i was just wondering you said the car was auction car....did you check the description on the replaced cam....was wondering if it was a bank 1 ex cam incorrect part.....???? keep up the good work....
G.M. 2.4 has this problem. Bulletin for this concern #PIP4548G ,over heat of engine usually causes this. Check cam timing (mechanical) with in cylinder pressure transducer verses cam signal (electrical) to see if reluctor has shifted .
I'm a big fan of using Mobil1 with 5k intervals. Ive heard of stories when i was in school back in 07 about pressed on cam lobes on some sort of gm engine and they would turn and be a fun one to diagnose... Although with the use of a pico scope and pressure transducer i'm sure it would be an easy find!
It would be interesting to learn precisely how the reluctor wheel was able to move away from its correct position on the exhaust camshaft. The 2011 to 2013 versions of the 3.6L Pentastar engine had lots of problems. This one might not be all that uncommon because there are many owners who ignore the check engine light and can do so because emissions testing is not done in many US states.
I have worked on class interference fits and looking at that cam I would have to say that the machine,ing was slightly under size on the cam or slightly over size on the wheel, and torque whip , heating up expanded and turned slightly. When doing a slip on interference fit on a bearing I heat the bearing race to 300 degrees and I put red locktite on shaft and quickly install, his engine may have overheated inside to 300+ degrees and camshafts toque shifted it.
Hahahahaha yep that’s right I opened up the dashboard and took out the bulb for the check engine light and no more engine light and my car is running good with and with out the check engine light
Herman Rogers if you’re state has no inspection for engine ck light I guess you’re Ok, but if like to keep the engine running as close to factory specs at least scan computer to get a idea in case you have to fix it in the future
My ‘16 is a baby at 68k miles, been diligent with 5k synthetic oil changes and did a ATF/filter change a few months ago. Sad to say, it’s sounding like the front trans pump is starting to make a bit of noise (unrelated to the fluid change)
Great diag Ivan I figured once I saw the signals not agreeing. Most mirror or close to it and that one was a few inches off on the screen. Can’t beat parking lot fixes lol hopefully you aren’t getting this hurricane 🌀
I work at a Chrysler dealership and if you touch the reluctor wheel on the cam with a magnet it’ll do the same thing. The kicker is the lifters and rocker arms fail around that mileage and people have dropped them while changing them and fished them out with a magnet accidentally hitting the reluctor wheel causing a similar issue.
Hmmm, about halfway through the video, we have a sludged up engine that didn’t have proper oil change intervals. Are we dealing with a twisted camshaft? I remember one that you and Eric O did that had a twisted camshaft.
My hypothesis was a broken wire between the sensor and the computer making the signal noisy. You didn't appear to measure the cam signal at the computer, just at the sensor. It surprises me that the computer jumps around like that when the signal is clean and the sync pattern is correct!
Check at the PCM would be more conclusive, yes. But the jumping likely just means that the PCM was discarding some edges due to zhe being outside of the expected range, syncing on the edge before or after the actual one. Most likely, you would find that those three edges match the three degree numbers on the scan tool.
Great diagnosis. I have seen this problem once myself. Like yours, you could not move the magnetic pickup. Unlike yours, it was well maintained. As a FYI we can relearn cam crank correlation at the dealership, not sure if you might have it under your special function.
PHAD, respect for calling that slipped ring so quick. With stable waveform AT THE SENSOR, i thought for sure your next step was to backprobe at ECM to check waveform stability, but you were already two steps ahead. I must admit, that toggling reading on scanner tricked me. Why was ECM reporting toggling reading when waveform was stable? If I chased it, and I compared EXH cam position waveforms on "good" side to "suspect" side (which were different), then test one cly on ea bank for cyl pressure, wouldn't the in-cyl waveforms be identical at EVO and EVC, indicating a sync problem that must be sensor's trigger wheel? Just thinking how i might have homed in on such an odd problem.
I have a 2014 town and country, chrysler replaced the heads under warranty. The cylinder #2 misfire is back. I replaced the coil, plugs, and injector...still a misfire
Seems like in a case like this, the good bank waveforms could be considered "known good" right? If there are two banks, are there cases where they would have different timing?
i'm thinking the only way you could have determined the cam reluctor problem is if you have seen the problem before or you had a couple of camshafts laying around. Or service information would give you illustrations of the reluctor positions. Good job though.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics have p0017 on 2007 cadillac sts runs good sumtimes when crank it its kida shaking just wondering should i start wit cam or crank sensors or maybe an vvt aculator is what i was told
Before i watch the video. I had same code on Jeep wrangler 3.6 v6, and bank 1 exhaust and intake cam was out of time, because of the bank 1 timing chain steel guide with the plastic chain skid plate that disintegrated and broke into pieces resulting on the bank 1 timing chain jumping teeth and bending 4 intake valves. Every time i see the description correlation, timing was off. Now let me enjoy this video.
(At 11:00 now) I would assume that the two exhaust waveforms should look similar and then compare them to see if they actually do look similar. It could be that the reluctor wheel is slightly magnetic. In any case, you will eventually have to remove the valve cover so after testing the phaseors (and see if the camshaft moves in the right direction) I would pop the valve cover for a visual inspection.
I must ask a PCM logic question for P0019. Will the PCM remove the 5V reference on pin 2 of the cam sensors when it sets after 3minutes of run time after battery disconnect? I took the exhaust cam to the dealership and compared it to a new one. The sensor magnetic reluctor ring was exact. I've replaced the complete cam timing and actuators. The gears were pointed and chain was slapping the valve covers. All wiring ohms out at .3ohms. No voltage at pin2 after 3minutes and Solus Edge gives no parameters for sensors after 22.4 update.
Ivan, I have a case where mine appears to be shifted about 7.5 degrees on the CAM, 15 on crank as read by the scanner and scope for the left Intake cam. I keep thinking the possibility of a stretched chain but wouldn't a stretched chain have both cams compromised? Meaning, codes P0018 & P0019 for this Bank 2? I know about the sludge in this engine as in my case it was about 1/4" thick sludge everywhere. I'm not sure how can an engine get to that point without being destroyed completely, that is beyond me. The cams look clean and no ticking on the rocker arms surprisingly.
Thats a miracle that aPentastar motor is still running after being neglected like that, next will be tstat, oilfilter/oilcooler assembly then rear main seal then electronic regulated oilpump then heatet core then a/c evaporator then combined a/c trans cooler should I go on.
I love that this guy did an actual Russian repair in the parking lot and there’s a pipe wrench on the passenger seat. Lol
Eric O. recently had a circular saw in the background on one of his videos. Who needs Snap-On when you can just get your car repair tools at Lowe's?
@@gregwhite5058 There’s your problem, lady!
Don’t overlook the vice grip as well.
Had this on BMW B38 3 cylinder the other week. Head scratcher lol.
Props to the new owner that can swap a cam outdoors in under an hour! I will not fret about doing one next time the occasion arises! As for you, Ivan, another great diag!
And allowing your customer to do the work himself not to mention in your driveway. Great video! Well done,
Well, he did it 17 thousand times before 😂😂😂😂😂. There is a guy on UA-cam who can take the Penstar 3.6 top with a blind fold, which is really most of the job. Still, don't get too excited. This is an 8 hour job for most of us. However, a crazy business idea is for the two in the video to team up: "We fix your car within an hour or your money back."
South main auto and pine hollow diagnostics are one of the few automotive channels providing excellent diagnostic work whom deserve more views
Couldn't agree with you more!
I totally agree!!
Nice diagnosis! I’ve run into the same issue before on an Infiniti with a VQ37. It came from another shop that did an oil change but only put in a couple quarts of oil. Owner took off, left their parking lot at WOT and stopped a few miles down the road when the oil pressure and check engine came on and the engine was rattling. Towed it to my shop, had timing codes for both banks, no oil on the dipstick but the engine oil (when draining) was clean with no debris. Rattle coming from the timing chain area, timing was obviously off on both banks when looking at cam/crank signals. I recommended an engine replacement, but because the shop that did the oil change was paying for it, they requested just the timing chains/guides since there wasn’t metal in the oil. Had another tech do the timing chains and guides, put it back together, engine was quiet and ran fine but was still setting a cam/crank for one of the intake cams. I checked the cam/crank sensors again on the scope, verified that the cam setting the code still read incorrect. Since another tech did the chains, I immediately suspected that the base timing may be off. Luckily on the VQ37, the timing marks can be seen with the engine assembled. Checked that, marks were dead on. The cam sensors read a reluctor wheel that is pressed on to the cam gear/phaser. I came to the conclusion that the reluctor must have shifted, since the cam sensor signal was perfect but shifted a fixed amount. Took the valve cover off on that bank to have a better look at the reluctor and sure enough, it was shifted slightly compared to a picture of a new part. The shop paying for the repair started whining that the didn’t want to pay the $500 for a new cam phaser plus labor, so I told them they could either take it as is with the check engine light on or forfeit the warranty on the repair and I will try to physically move the reluctor, with the understanding that could make it worse and they would still be on the hook to pay for the repair. They opted to have me try to move the reluctor. I held the cam with a wrench and tapped the reluctor with a brass drift and a hammer (took a fair amount of force to move). I got it close enough by eye to make the computer happy and keep the light off (the calculated difference was like 3 degrees). Definitely not a fix or preferred repair in my book, but the other shop was being shitty and the owner of the car was bitching to us, plus the shop paying for the repair had voluntarily surrendered any warranty coverage.
FANTASTIC!! That's an awesome diag & case study!! I totally geeked out here!
That guy was just as amazing, swapping out cams in that fashion. Very amazing job!
The movement of the reluctor wheel is caused by the twisting of the cams under load . These cams are hollow . This is very common in the pentastar engine . Great diagnostics with the cam signals and no crank reference. I like your use of mathematics .
The old parts cannon is so overdone even by workshops, I know this is an older video but your level of knowledge exceeds most electrical repairers who would not know how to correlate the mechanical aspect to what they are seeing electrically and same goes for mechanics lack of ability to correlate electrically what they are seeing mechanically
'I don't always know.'
I don't always know when I think I know what I know.
To open my eyes and my mind a bit wider and
search a bit farther, hoping to find what I need
to know as I grow a bit stronger inside.
To be careful when choosing someone
I may share a bit of my trust with.
Might just make for a bit of a better day.
One thing's for sure, though,
I won't always know when I think I know what I know.
Have a better day,
Jekelex
Here I go again working on this thing again. Kinda funny that I don't feel as stressed now. I see it s something for everyone to loook at and maybe have a better day. Guess it depends who reads it. I wonder if kids might learn more if they had something easy to read and be motivated. I find it works most when dealing with people. So easy to mijudge at times. Just a thought. Hope you don't mind me taking up a minute or 2. I do enjoy your vids.
Your customer reminds me when I had a 2006 Nissan Xterra. First time I opened the engine I had taped, marked, and photographed everything. It took me 2 hours to remove the valve covers. Couple times later I can tear that engine to top to bottom apart in less than 20 minutes and put it back in an hour 😂 . Excellent diagnosis Ivan
Omg. I had this same scenario on a Range Rover Evoque I owned. Only 5 minutes in. Can’t wait to find out. Wow. Reluctor wheel likely got hot due to sludge and rotated by itself. What a find Ivan.
yet another ENDLESS MONEY PIT......but now made in china......AVOID ALL BRITISH LEYLAND VEHICLES !!
Ah yes! Heat expansion. Good hypothesis.
@@waynecartwright9478 This is a Chrysler product built in the USA. British Leyland does suck though.
@@barryaiello3127 actually I thought these were built in Windsor Ontario Canada. But it's not their fault the previous owner never changed the oil.
@@toronado455 Yea, it might be, the newer multi OHC VVT designs all use very long timing chains and really, really don't do well with idiots who cannot even change out the oil.
Very cool diagnosis and then the owner steps in and has all parts needed and repairs his van.
The owner also cleans the sludge out of his motor. Some people should not be allowed to own vehicle because changing oil cost to much.
Not many owners can fix their own. They drive it to the shop and bitch about cost to fix.
Kudos to the owner mechanic. 👍👍 and Ivan to confirm the issue.
I really need a Pico scope bad.
👍👍
It is too bad the original owner who did not maintain it properly was not the one to have paid for the repair! I find it hard to feel for a customer that brings problems on themselves. I do have part of a heart for people who get stuck paying for other peoples stupidity. Ivan is one of the few good guys out there that is worth his weight in gold, as they say. We need more techs like Ivan in the world.
Lj, I need a pico scope too!
Well done as always. Watching your diagnostic videos it’s like being in a classroom.
Very interestng case study Ivan. Since you didn't put in the parts it was another NPR. ;-) Another victory for the Pico though.
The waveforms look good for the camera. The pico also has "Math Channel", where you could do A-B, to quickly see the magnitude of difference between cam1 and cam2. It might help speed diag up a bit, as you don't have to stop the scope and eyeball the difference. It's under Tools, Math Channel.
A-B would just subtract the amplitudes which isn't that useful for looking at phase difference on a complex digital signal.
This was deep, good stuff bud
Thanks for the comment, means a lot to me coming from a pro Chrysler tech! Definitely not a common 3.6 issue 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Wow i do not get to use our Pic scope nearly as often and much as I see other guys. Im almost curious what route a dealer tech would have taken to get to this point. As long as the ending result was a fix, thats a good thing. But you right def not a common issue.
Was looking for something different but wound up here. Had to watch whole video, great diagnostic approach. Been doing this for over 25 years and you just taught me a new and simple way to attack an issue like this.
Thanks for the comment Jeff! Always learning new things every day and happy to share the experience 👍🙂
You know it's a Russian repair when there's a rubber Bungee cord and a pipe wrench involved.
Da. Is signature.
Bernie Thompson at ATS has found shifted reluctor wheels before, but he didn't speculate on the cause.
He always does, usually the wrong part or someone using it to pray the camshaft.
@@scientist100: Yeah. Wondering if that pipe wrench might be involved 😆.
Ivan, wow, parking lot repair!! Swapping cams and owner saying not leaving until it's fixed! That's dedication right there man! He sure knows what he's doing! Wow, you diagnosed with cam correlation issue under an hour lol! He must have watched your Russian repair fixes!! Nice video! Wished to see more of his putting it together! That would be fun to watch what he did!! Lol. Awesome job!
Yeah he was done with the camshaft swap before I could find a known-good waveform!!!
I definitely would’ve thought that the phaser was jumping around causing this issue! 🤦🏽♂️ Great find as always Ivan!
I was thinking a Dorman part had been installed. We know how their electronic stuff works.
FYI if you search on '2027900090 Tone Wheel Check Tool Kit' you will find a tool Mopar has devised to visually inspect for a shifted tone wheel. Super expensive though for what it is. Hopefully another vendor can come out with a less expensive version. I'd venture a guess as to what is causing the tone wheel to shift in most cases is timing component failure that puts enough of an abrupt 'tug' on the sprocket to shift it. And it has probably jumped a tooth at that point. So folks are correctly putting timing kits in but not knowing the wheel has shifted as well. You get all it put back together and end up with a vehicle in the state as in this video. So it would be good to have the tool for double checking anytime you have to do a timing job on these.
What can I say? A person has to really know their stuff to be able to figure out a problem like this one. Great job!
You hit the nail on the head . Really impressed with this diagnosis.
Would have been interesting to see the Chrysler man in action swapping that camshaft.
Would need to use a time-lapse camera recording to actually prove that a Chrysler employee had actually MOVED!
@@trevorvanbremen4718 lol, thats funny
Wow! Awesome diagnostic work! While having it all torn down, perfect time to replace the rockers, since they are known to go out on that motor of that vintage, but then again, the owner appears to love tearing into it, may as well wait, maybe they won't go out!
Whew! Bonus footage = a true authentic Ivan video not some Chinese knockoff like the last one;-)
Excellent Professor Ivan, very clever on analytical diagnosis, hope last mechanic learns something about a very difficult problem.
Big thumbs up for the UK Pico Scope.
Great work and thanks for sharing.
Outstanding troubleshooting and guerilla repair! My hats off to your customer as well as yourself. Really enjoyed this and learned a lot.
I am so impressed with your knowledge and your approach. My name is Cindy. I've been trying to get my 2011 3.6 Chrysler Town and Country fixed for 4 years (since the day I bought it). I have watched Eric from South Maine and a couple of other well-respected mechanics, including you, for the last few years, religiously. I'm not a mechanic, but after having my van into many shops, and I mean, MANY, it's still not fixed. I've learned so much about vehicles since I've had no choice but to learn. I've replaced the throttle body myself last year, and I've taken the TIPM off in order to send it to California to have the fuel pump relay replaced (known issue). This, however, does not make me a mechanic. One of the last mechanics had my van 12 different times. At that point, when I got it back and it didnt start when I oicked it up (after I'd just paid for a starter... after just having one put in a few months before), I decided I'd have to learn more and try to help myself. I bought the Haynes book and I've learned a lot. I'm learning about electrical schematics now. People have changed out parts time and time again on my van, but it's still exhibiting the same problems. I've put in 2 camshaft position sensors myself, and another mechanic put one in. I'm lost, and this has consumed me. It has made me learn, but I just want this to come to an end. I have spent so much time and money that I can't focus on anything else. I keep wishing I knew a reputable diagnostics specialist such as yourself, here in Michigan. I respect you so much. Your videos are awesome! By the way, the three lines that are on your home page on your website are not clickable. After reading your bio on your site today, I wanted to check out the rest of your site. My intention was to look for a phone number. I thought perhaps since you're a superstar diagnostics man on UA-cam, you may know of somebody out towards me that I could take my van to since UA-cam mechanics talk. I am in no position to buy a new vehicle, or I would have. I'm just lost and could use some direction. I'm sorry for the long rant. Believe me, if I'd written down all of the parts that have been put in my car, I'd run out of room for in terms of character limitations 😂😂
Once again great diag Ivan my theory is that The reluctant had to have been moving a half a degree through heat cycling expansion and contraction over time
That combined with the friction of it running against the sludge that used to have been packed into the cylinder head is a strong possibility.
I don’t work on cars like you, but I enjoy watching these videos. I learn something all the time.
A pair of chain vice grips and a shot of vodka and i would have gotten that cam wheel synched up pronto LoL... Great video! Most definitely the lack of lubrication maintenance had to do with this. Likely frozen/cold viscous sludge did the deed.
Excellent diagnostic process. I'd still like to know how that reluctor moved...
worn cam phasers give it the rattle gun effect, happens to m270 mercedes as well
You never need expensive tools you need the know how and the motivation to do the job anyone that says you need snap on or expensive tools to do work have never actually done work
Pine Hollow you rule. Love the videos. I am having problems with the 3.6 Pentastar in my Wrangler. I had seen your other video. I had to replace the timing set after finding a broken chain guide on bank 2. I started it up and it throws a P0017 (Crankshaft/Camshaft Timing Misalignment-Bank 1 Sensor 2) and a P0300 (Multiple Cylinder Misfire). It also show the C121C (Torque Request Signal Denied) as well. I did some data capture and the actual vs desired for intake cam 2 is just like what you showed in this video. Sometimes it is on and other times it is off by a huge negative like the video. I had thought it was a reluctor, but then started second guessing. Thought about throwing sensors, phaser, oil contol valve at it, but non of those made sense. The sensors maybe, but swapping them the issue did not follow the sensor. The only thing the sensor could be reading for those numbers is the reluctor. I dont have a scope. I am going to swap the intake cam showing the problem. Thank you for the informative videos.
Loved the pipe wrench on the seat ! 🤣🤣 great video Ivan.
I enjoyed this case study. Thank you very much for putting it out on UA-cam. I was impressed how you went back to your lab and followed up on the information that was learned from the case study. Bravo!!!!!!
It never ceases to amaze me how complicated and overengineered they have made a simple combustion engine.
They have just about reached the maximum limit of efficiency and power while still maintaining good reliability 🙂
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
Replace "good" with "acceptable" and I will agree with ya
I was thinking about the wave form on the good exhaust cam. Scanner Danner had one on a Toyota where the crank gear was shifted due to the crank bolt being insufficiently tightened. U and Eric had a car where I think the cam was bent. Super sleuthing. When u get on a scent, ain’t nothing getting away from u. U Bernie Thompsened it. And now “u can return the car to the customer.” Every time I watch Ivan, I get a little smarter. Thank u!!
thanks ivan, i have the same problem in a grand cherokke 3.6 with the same engine, thanks to your video, i solved the defect, hug from Brazil.
Wow Ivan, Great Diagnosis! I didn't know _DORMAN_ even made camshafts ! 🤣
You remain so impressive! I have not watched in a long while! I am still amazed at your talent!
The unstable cam position could have been air in the timing valve and cam phaser until it cleared out. I've also had an ecotec with this type of issue on both cams. Come to find out the previous mechanic swapped the cams while changing the head but installed the phasers correctly. Couldn't figure it out until I compared them to the new set he brought me. Swapped them back with the original cams and it ran great. But after researching these engines apparently the reluctor wheel can turn if the engine has been overheated. My guess is that's what happened to this one.
If they can spin that easy.. They need to be welded in place....AS that was weird to understand how it can spin...
@@WizzRacingWell it usually takes a lot of heat but I agree. Or at the least keyed so it can't spin.
As always, EXCELLENT troubleshooting and diagnostics. You are an amazingly skilled tech Ivan.... BRAVO !
Great Diagnostics on the 3.8. My wife's van has over 200K and running strong.
Isn't that a 3.6 L engine? Great to hear you are up to 200K. How often do you change the oil and transmission fluid? I have heard so many complaints about Chrysler engines this is good to hear.
The 3.6 is actually a really good engine. I have one myself (yes the trans was replaced) but the engine is a 245K and still ticking...I mean it actually ticks it has the Venerable rocker arm debacle but I understand that's not that difficult to fix in the center cylinder so maybe worth fixing.
Really good for a Dodge. My 2GR-FE’s having NONE of these problems at close to that mileage.
Wow, I am impressed by your knowledge and diagnostic skills. You are no longer a tech but a scientist. Thanks for sharing.
These cars also have trigger wheels that cannot be exposed to magnets. The magnets will remove the trigger wheel ability to create a signal.
I admire your logical approach. I'm almost sad that i don't have a busted car to bring to you. Those who do need your talent are lucky to find you.
A similar thing happens with the 80’s Volvo 240 red blocks where the guide pin on cam sprocket shears. Great find man!
I love this video. Let me just say i love this way you teach , very unique
My hypothesis (at the point PHD asked for one) is that the magnet etc on the camshaft - apparently called the reluctor wheel - is broken and physically moving around in there, more or less independently of the camshaft itself, possibly just sitting loose on top of the sensor and jiggling around. Edit: totally wrong, but that's ok
In the original 4 channel waveform, I could see that the red does not match its partner above giving me enough info to go inside which is exactly what you did but for a different reason and both of our diagnosis is the same, DAMN pressed on parts never fail to FAIL, awesome video and case study as always. I looked at the narrow, medium, and wide windows between bank 1 and bank 2.
This reluctor shift could've been tricky to diagnose. Also lucky to have a camshaft handy. Good video. Thanks
Found the same problem Chrysler has now mad a tool to check the alignment of the reluctor rings it sets is the place of the cam sensor and it had two pins that line up with pre drilled holes in the reluctor rings
I had a Ram with the same problem during the winter. My biggest clue was that it started and ran so well even though the computer thought that it was 40 degrees off. The one I did ran very low on oil
Hi Ivan....great case study.....i was just wondering you said the car was auction car....did you check the description on the replaced cam....was wondering if it was a bank 1 ex cam incorrect part.....???? keep up the good work....
Cam was original to engine, never been removed.
wow thats weird how the disc moved.....
I am getting my self an oscilloscope. Makes diagnostic so much easier. Awesome video.
G.M. 2.4 has this problem. Bulletin for this concern #PIP4548G ,over heat of engine usually causes this. Check cam timing (mechanical) with in cylinder pressure transducer verses cam signal (electrical) to see if reluctor has shifted .
Well done as always 👍👍👍💗 Excellent troubleshooting skills.😉
One in a million mechanic I would have said one in a billion but there's only nearly a billion well done mate
I'm a big fan of using Mobil1 with 5k intervals. Ive heard of stories when i was in school back in 07 about pressed on cam lobes on some sort of gm engine and they would turn and be a fun one to diagnose... Although with the use of a pico scope and pressure transducer i'm sure it would be an easy find!
Changing a cam in a parking lot? That's crazy. Great diagnostic skills! превосходно!
Well done Ivan. I see the owner was enjoying a well earned beer after his quick work.
Good job! The Pico has shown the problem.
I am sure he is ecstatic and cant thank you enough!!!
11:00 min marker I think he's right. It's getting a good signal. It Has to be what the signal is trying to read.
I have the 3.6 pentastar and really like the motor. Didn't know about cam needle bearings. Guess you can hear it when it malfunctions.
You inspire me how well you diagnose the issue step by step. Im learning from all your videos. Looking forward to see more of your work. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👨🏻🔧
Great work again Ivan.
It would be interesting to learn precisely how the reluctor wheel was able to move away from its correct position on the exhaust camshaft. The 2011 to 2013 versions of the 3.6L Pentastar engine had lots of problems. This one might not be all that uncommon because there are many owners who ignore the check engine light and can do so because emissions testing is not done in many US states.
I have worked on class interference fits and looking at that cam I would have to say that the machine,ing was slightly under size on the cam or slightly over size on the wheel, and torque whip , heating up expanded and turned slightly. When doing a slip on interference fit on a bearing I heat the bearing race to 300 degrees and I put red locktite on shaft and quickly install, his engine may have overheated inside to 300+ degrees and camshafts toque shifted it.
Hahahahaha yep that’s right I opened up the dashboard and took out the bulb for the check engine light and no more engine light and my car is running good with and with out the check engine light
Herman Rogers if you’re state has no inspection for engine ck light I guess you’re Ok, but if like to keep the engine running as close to factory specs at least scan computer to get a idea in case you have to fix it in the future
This reminds me of the twisted cam Ivan and Eric O found in an older video. Crazy stuff!
@Aussie101 yeah it's on Eric's channel...that was before I even had my own channel haha
For Ivan and Eric with the twisted camshaft, see
ua-cam.com/video/K-UlvBZ95Jo/v-deo.html
Hyundai Tucson P0173 Case Study Part 2
300k before my chain let go and engine replaced 😁. Great diag as always 👍
My ‘16 is a baby at 68k miles, been diligent with 5k synthetic oil changes and did a ATF/filter change a few months ago. Sad to say, it’s sounding like the front trans pump is starting to make a bit of noise (unrelated to the fluid change)
Wasn't it ticking for over a year Keith? Those are hard Staten Island miles too!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics definitely over a year and probably 25 to 30k on it during that time easy
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Иван, переведи Кейту, корректно русскую поговорку: "Сапожник - без сапог" :)))
Great diag Ivan I figured once I saw the signals not agreeing. Most mirror or close to it and that one was a few inches off on the screen. Can’t beat parking lot fixes lol hopefully you aren’t getting this hurricane 🌀
Brilliant job. Genius. And after all that neglect from lack of maintenance the engine sounds sweet.
I work at a Chrysler dealership and if you touch the reluctor wheel on the cam with a magnet it’ll do the same thing. The kicker is the lifters and rocker arms fail around that mileage and people have dropped them while changing them and fished them out with a magnet accidentally hitting the reluctor wheel causing a similar issue.
Hmmm, about halfway through the video, we have a sludged up engine that didn’t have proper oil change intervals. Are we dealing with a twisted camshaft? I remember one that you and Eric O did that had a twisted camshaft.
Yes - It was a Hyundai Santa Fe if memory serves. A lean code on one bank, unplugging something would make the opposite bank rich. Crazy stuff.
@@zoidberg444
Ya, unplugging the MAF sensor would cause the code to set on the opposite bank. That was a real who done mystery.
Similar scenerio I was going to comment on. Must be a momentary seizure occuring.
3rd, you took the thought right out of my brain, reluctor issue.
Very nice...Just an excellent diagnosis.
You really had me on this ivan, well done.
My hypothesis was a broken wire between the sensor and the computer making the signal noisy. You didn't appear to measure the cam signal at the computer, just at the sensor. It surprises me that the computer jumps around like that when the signal is clean and the sync pattern is correct!
Great question Jessica! Key here was that the P0018 is a "logic" code, vs a "circuit" code 🙂
Thanks for asking.. I was thinking about it...
Check at the PCM would be more conclusive, yes. But the jumping likely just means that the PCM was discarding some edges due to zhe being outside of the expected range, syncing on the edge before or after the actual one. Most likely, you would find that those three edges match the three degree numbers on the scan tool.
Great diagnosis. I have seen this problem once myself. Like yours, you could not move the magnetic pickup. Unlike yours, it was well maintained. As a FYI we can relearn cam crank correlation at the dealership, not sure if you might have it under your special function.
PHAD, respect for calling that slipped ring so quick. With stable waveform AT THE SENSOR, i thought for sure your next step was to backprobe at ECM to check waveform stability, but you were already two steps ahead. I must admit, that toggling reading on scanner tricked me. Why was ECM reporting toggling reading when waveform was stable? If I chased it, and I compared EXH cam position waveforms on "good" side to "suspect" side (which were different), then test one cly on ea bank for cyl pressure, wouldn't the in-cyl waveforms be identical at EVO and EVC, indicating a sync problem that must be sensor's trigger wheel? Just thinking how i might have homed in on such an odd problem.
Great video my friend ....... I love the Nutz and Boltz stuff adding in you diag work and boom!!!! great video !!!!!
I missed something here. Why was the original cam off? The diagnosis, finding that the cam was off, was awesome... but why was it off?
I have a 2014 town and country, chrysler replaced the heads under warranty. The cylinder #2 misfire is back. I replaced the coil, plugs, and injector...still a misfire
Stay with the 3.3 liter 02 to 10 and no such troubles.... EVER.
Seems like in a case like this, the good bank waveforms could be considered "known good" right? If there are two banks, are there cases where they would have different timing?
i'm thinking the only way you could have determined the cam reluctor problem is if you have seen the problem before or you had a couple of camshafts laying around. Or service information would
give you illustrations of the reluctor positions. Good job though.
I bet that was a butt puckering moment when it started and the Ex 2 was still 587 after resetting haha
But the variance was correct...PCM must have been a bit confused lol
Probably PCM need time for synchronization and set up new reference point.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics have p0017 on 2007 cadillac sts runs good sumtimes when crank it its kida shaking just wondering should i start wit cam or crank sensors or maybe an vvt aculator is what i was told
@@jrenoch1796 oil control solenoids usually...OEM GM parts only, no DORMAN haha
Thanks for the in depth analysis and for posting the wave forms.
Before i watch the video. I had same code on Jeep wrangler 3.6 v6, and bank 1 exhaust and intake cam was out of time, because of the bank 1 timing chain steel guide with the plastic chain skid plate that disintegrated and broke into pieces resulting on the bank 1 timing chain jumping teeth and bending 4 intake valves. Every time i see the description correlation, timing was off. Now let me enjoy this video.
(At 11:00 now) I would assume that the two exhaust waveforms should look similar and then compare them to see if they actually do look similar. It could be that the reluctor wheel is slightly magnetic. In any case, you will eventually have to remove the valve cover so after testing the phaseors (and see if the camshaft moves in the right direction) I would pop the valve cover for a visual inspection.
Wire up the good sensor signal to replace the bad? They're supposed to be the same anyway.
Great diagnosis and fix . I wonder what the other guy uses that Pico for ? Maybe if an old car comes in he can use it to set the POINTS ! 😂
I must ask a PCM logic question for P0019. Will the PCM remove the 5V reference on pin 2 of the cam sensors when it sets after 3minutes of run time after battery disconnect? I took the exhaust cam to the dealership and compared it to a new one. The sensor magnetic reluctor ring was exact. I've replaced the complete cam timing and actuators. The gears were pointed and chain was slapping the valve covers.
All wiring ohms out at .3ohms. No voltage at pin2 after 3minutes and Solus Edge gives no parameters for sensors after 22.4 update.
u should duty cycle the phaser so u dont burn up the solenoid. good video.
Worn cam phasers can cause this with pressed on thin reluctors, it effectively rattle guns the tone wheel around
Do the phaser cleaning procedure in the scan tool for the other 3. Pentastar V6's are very robust.
Ivan, I have a case where mine appears to be shifted about 7.5 degrees on the CAM, 15 on crank as read by the scanner and scope for the left Intake cam. I keep thinking the possibility of a stretched chain but wouldn't a stretched chain have both cams compromised? Meaning, codes P0018 & P0019 for this Bank 2? I know about the sludge in this engine as in my case it was about 1/4" thick sludge everywhere. I'm not sure how can an engine get to that point without being destroyed completely, that is beyond me. The cams look clean and no ticking on the rocker arms surprisingly.
Great Find Nice Job Good Case Study Thanks for Sharing !!!
Thats a miracle that aPentastar motor is still running after being neglected like that, next will be tstat, oilfilter/oilcooler assembly then rear main seal then electronic regulated oilpump then heatet core then a/c evaporator then combined a/c trans cooler should I go on.