It might not seem like it, but Sans is in fact in this thumbnail. Also, to everyone asking why I didn't have her play Skyrim, it is because she already played it in the first gaming for a non-gamer; go watch it please, thank you.
I think you are right. They are thinking with their heart as to them it seems approachable and it meant a lot to them, but yeah, it is a tough entry point.
@@razbuten I feel like it’s also made with the assumption you know the stereotypical RPG. It’s less effective if you’ve never grinded through dungeons of enemies before
I think it really depends on the player and what they want out of a game. Undertale was my first RPG, more or less the first game I ever played, and I loved the story so much I continued playing other games even if at the time the rpg jokes went over my head.
People recommending undertale is a great example of blindness that entrenched gamers have to nongamer experiences. They just assume that all these aspects of gaming are obvious and not learned behaviors.
I mean, I played it with a (new gamer) friend and we loved the humour, and that's all that mattered for undertale. Neither of us thought the subversion was mind blowing because we both mutually agreed to do full pacifist in our first run without ever expecting being rewarded for it. It's a great game for both the player and the back seater.
I mostly am aiming to have her experience some of the major types of games before ending the series. I think I have like 4-5 more ideas for videos and then will call it quits. Personally, anyone who plays games, regardless of skill, can be a gamer, but I think the name of the series works as shorthand to let people know what it will be about opposed to changing the naming scheme to reflect how incrementally more experienced she is with each passing video.
I'd say it's when they have a good grasp of games and generally you can just understand the basics of most games you play without needing a tutorial to show the more common stuff
It's sorta nuts to me that Pokemon's differentiation of "safe" vs "random encounter zone" wasn't a no-brainer implementation for every future turn-based RPG in history in the same way that other genre norms got created and improved on based on examples in a singular title. It's even MORE nuts to me that Pokemon ITSELF never used its own strategy within its very own water and cave sections. Just create a visually distinct "grass" section in the water and caves like every other zone?!
I think that one of the effect or goal of not creating this separation in caves and on water is to make them more dangerous and tense. At least it is how it felt to younger me. Caves felt perilous and the atmosphere oppressing because encounters could pop up at anytime. Couple that with obscurity because I didn't have flash at the time and you get quite the experience. I like that some zones are entirely dangerous.
actually, yeah. I've been playing Octopath and I would at least like a sparsely used safe zone. Getting a random encounter in a short distance to a npc or save point doesn't really add anything. Personally it doesn't annoy me much but still.
I think having specific areas where there aren't any "safe zones" is a fine way to change up the experience, but it's definitely weird that no other series has adopted the "tall grass" method of random encounters in general.
One thing I have found interesting with this series is that you almost always select the games she will play. I personally would think having her choose from either the box art, the synopsis on the back of the case or seeing a trailer of a game she is excited about would be a great way of seeing how a non-gamer would get into video games. It's how most of us go into video games, especially back in the day when there wasn't an internet.
"It's how most of us go into video games" I disagree. I feel like most people get into video games by trying a game at a friend's house or by buying a game from a friend's recommendation. If you've never played a game and it's not something that interests you that much, you're probably not gonna stumble upon a game in the wild and tell yourself "hey, I should play this".
@@maxinoume True. However, after I got into gaming as a kid I used to go to the game stores, look at game covers and buy something based on that. I would never do it these days, but it worked out wonderfully for me 20 years ago. If the selection is good then it should work.
For sure. The games my wife has played (or backseat gamed) and enjoyed the most were games she picked out for random reasons. Spiritfarer because the trailer was so good, Outer Wilds because she liked the sound track, Stardew because she liked the idea of forming relationships with the villagers, etc. Oftentimes if I choose a game, she's not super interested
@@maxinoume I kinda agree with you, but I also kinda don't. When I was a kid in the early 2000s I didn't have a console, only a PC with an SNES emulator and a bunch of SNES games (450 to be exact), and aside from Mario and Donkey Kong, I didn't know a single SNES game, so I had to choose which one to try based on their names alone. That way I got to know, play and love a lot of titles that never got much attention, but that meant the world to me when I was little, and which I probably wouldn't try if I could see how they were like beforehand. On the other hand, with the huge amount of games being made by everyone and their grandmas knowadays, I am SO grateful for the internet, for trailers and for being able to watch gameplays and let's plays before I decide which game to buy, since it has saved me A LOT of money and/or stress for playing a game I bought but didn't like. So I guess it is good being able to know a game before playing it, but it doesn't hurt to go in blindly based on name or box art alone from time to time :) (Btw, one thing I miss nowadays are playable demos. No matter how much I watch someone play a game, it will never be the same as trying it for myself. It's bullshit that AAA games rarely release demos anymore.)
@@danielbueno8474 I almost agree with your whole comment except when I watch gameplay on somewhere like youtube I find myself not fully enjoying the game since I know what will happen up to the point I stopped watching, which would be fine but rushing straight there makes the game too hard for my low level character or too much of a grind for me to want to play I think the only games I don't really have that much of an issue with are bethesda's fallout games and skyrim, because no matter how samey the story is and how many times I go to the same Dragon's Reach dungeon, I find that the different ways I force myself to play differently than before keeps some of it fresh
So much of Undertale is weird for a reason, parodying tutorials, gear, enemy types, battle systems, game mechanics, fantasy archetypes and worlds, bosses, and even puzzles, but if you’ve never played a game before, it all does just seem arbitrary
It’s like listening to “complex” music - to a non-musician or just casual listener it just sounds weird, to someone who knows the references and has context of what is being expanded upon or even the barriers that are being broken down it’s very interesting
Weird? That game seems boring af compared to Skyrim, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, etc. I would literally recommend Earthbound on the SNES over Undertale, or Golden Sun on the GBA. Honestly, I would even recommend the old table top RPG of Dungeons & Dragons, with pen and paper, over Undertale... I understand the Lady and I've played tons of RPGs.
No, she's on track. I stopped playing many RPGs years ago because of dumb crap like that. With so many options out there, I don't have to play some convoluted, unfun mess that "gets good" after 40 hours of gameplay. In fact, the most notorious RPG of all time is know for this epic dropping of the ball, Final Fantasy XIII.
I doubt you read comments on videos this old but I wanted to let you know that your wife is now officially the reason I'm adding enemy health bars to my game lol
You fell into a classic trap when people recommend stuff they recommend their favorite, but they forget that often times that the reason something is their favorite is because it subverted and played off of other tropes making it a masterwork. For new people with none of the background it's just a so so work. Think if your first super hero exposure was one punch man.
@@M00SHTY it's an easy trap to fall into. Undertale in the gaming community is highly praised, but it's praised because of the way it subverts the genre. I imagine it might be easy to look over what makes undertale so good when recommending it to someone with virtually no exposure to the genre.
@@Lafalot54 My thoughts as well. All of us started as non-gamers until we found a game that piqued our interest. My grandmother isn't interested in these new-fangled games (mostly as she's 81, has glaucoma, and now hand-tremors), but she reminisces fondly about her days with the Atari and playing Pacman when my mom and her sisters were gone at school...and then not wanting to give it back when they got home, lol! She was a very strong force in encouraging our mom to get us into gaming. She sent us a SNES for Christmas (and probably our NES as well), feeling that all children should know the joy of playing video games. Thanks for being one a kind, grandma, love you lots :) I should call her while I still can...
@@Lafalot54 I have my doubts. I'm not saying it to be mean, but I feel that if she's still struggling with moving and shooting at the same time after one year of playing games, maybe they just aren't for her.
@@Nirwanda001 Maybe shooters aren't her type of game. I myself am horrible at shooters even though I've been playing games for years. I prefer more "casual" games such as the sims, or minecraft. My favorite franchise is Zelda, but every time I see an enemy I would rather run away than fight it
@@Lafalot54 Yeah, that's a fair point. But the fact she finds rpg combat boring makes me think slow paced games aren't her thing, either. Though maybe I'm reading too much into this, hahaha.
@@dr7gon777 I was thinking for a split second she'd somehow already seen Crit Role and I was so waiting for her to say she wanted her bear to be named Trinket lol
Yeah. Would probably be the better starting point. The main reason is the stereotype of rangers using bows. They have full weapon proficiencies they can totally be a great sword user.
@@AndrewIHanna Yeah, it even led me to believe that she may have a little more knowledge about the game than I first thought - like knowing rangers can have animal companions and such.
To be fair, in some systems such as Pathfinder a Fighter with a bow would be a better archer than a Ranger, since he would be more specialized, while a Ranger would have other features (an animal companion, maybe some magic, etc.).
@@nessesaryschoolthing well civ at least you play the leader of a civilization. The advisors treat you as such and diplomacy as a whole treats you as such.
@@jammo7370 You SORTA do, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Why do you live for thousands of years? Why do you stay in power even after a revolution changes the government? It's not like Crusader Kings where you play as a PERSON, you basically are the whole civilization.
I imagine most people who voted to start with Undertale did so because of the ravenous fan base rather than it actually being a good starting point. The whole point of the game is to subvert gamers' expectations. A really daft place to start with some who has none of those expectations or norms.
It's possible they were just worried about the rigid formulas of RPGs. For example, in Dragon Quest V, I'm taking a quest to protect a little kitten from abuse. It involves breaking into a castle, and helping some dead people with their haunted castle. No, the dead aren't abusing the cat. The violent animal abuse is being done by human children. Also, the heroes are human children too. Anyways, there are many, many, dead animals by the time the little kids are leveled up enough to go play Ghostbusters. And the story never acknowledges this. In fact, the kitten becomes a party member, and only the cartridge limitations prevent the game from showing me how our team dressed the cat for battle. (Hat and loincloth are your starter options.)
I feel the same way about Divinity Original Sin 2! That game has so many terrible design decisions, so many flaws, but the people who like it are so AGGRESSIVE in their support for it, enough to trick people (like me) into thinking it must be something great and buying it: it isn’t. It’s a hilarious broken entertaining mess, no more.
I think they picked it to see how someine who doesnt underdtand RPG tropes would react to those tropes being subverted. I think they chose it because it would be interesting for them not fun for her.
That moment in Fire Red where she overestimated her Squirtle was hilarious because I'm pretty sure we've all suffered from hubris like that on many an occasion.
Really agree. I tried the demo of Final Fantasy 7 once because I thought it looked interesting and I liked the cartoony low poly art style (reminded me of Little Big Adventure, which I loved), but this caused me to stop playing immediately. I tried one more time later with the demo of FF8, found it obtuse and impenetrable, and never played another JRPG. Also, OH MAN, the annoyance of not seeing the health of enemies (and zero other indicators, like body language)! This was the other reason I hated FF, no way to tell if you're almost done with an encounter or if you're going to be stuck for hours going in circles doing the same thing over and over because you're using the wrong strategy or whatever. So, you just did this EPIC magical attack that needed a 5 minute cutscene and the result is... nothing happened.
@@ninjadodovideos Yep I wholeheartedly relate to that. Even in Pokemon on the Gameboy it just annoyed me to run around and be surprised with this insufferable enemy encounter sound. I wanted to like JRPGs, especially since they have a knack for fun, whacky (albeit overwritten) stories.
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 I am so glad DQ 11 doesnt have them. It also has a lot of other QoL Improvements, like all team members always getting exp, regardless if they fought or even died, and the option to speed up battles of course
She wants a pet bear though, and in 5e, I think Ranger is the only option for that. Or at least the only option with mechanical rules to facilitate it.
I feel like this really only applies to pre-rework Player's Guide subclass rangers - things like Gloomstalker, Horizon Walker and Fey Wanderer are really fun and can keep pace with other martial classes. Drakewarden and Swarmkeeper seem cool too but I've never seen them played so cant comment. (I do get that the comment is a joke, Im not tryna be a killjoy I swear)
Playing Undertale without having any knowledge of RPGs is like watching Space Balls without having any knowledge about Star Wars or the Sci-Fi genre at all. It was a *pretty* bad place to start IMO. I would have suggested Pokemon Fire Red, Child of Light or Chrono Trigger - those are at least manageable since (most of the time) you can actually choose when to fight.
Chrono trigger is the first thing that came to my head too as a starter RPG. It doesn't have random battles starts off pretty quick. No filler stuff really. and the combat is more engaging than other turn based combat with the duel and triple techs and team makeups. Its the perfect rpg to me and perfect place to start if you haven't played rpgs before imo
@@hazer3248 yeah, but you didn't understand the parodies, that's the point. RPGs are really good if you like movies, books and stories in general, but if you try them with any other mindset, you're going to hate them because you'll get bored easily.
The problem I've always had with random battles is that the frequency is just never right. It always feels like when you are actually trying to get anywhere or do something you'll get one every 3 steps, but when you actually want to grind for levels suddenly all the monsters have taken a lunch break.
Yeah, but that's usually at least just observational bias, or whatever it's called, where you notice more the stuff that negatively affects your current objective, rather than what furthers it. So, enemies in the way when trying to get somewhere, or no enemies when wanting to train/level. When, most likely, on the whole it's balanced.
@@Xaphanify I think he means the endgame dungeons which have the most stuff in them and usually have higher enemy encounter rates than earlier in the game
@@Xaphanify you're probably right about observational bias, but the implication is that it's impossible to balance random encounters in a way that's satisfying. The big problem is that the system's fundamentally undercut player agency. If your goal is to get from point A to point B, a monster that you see can be an obstacle that you solve via stealth or combat, but a random encounter will either crush you or make everything take way longer than it has to. If your goal is to grind for experience, then a monster that you see is an objective you can head towards, but you normally don't get any feedback about when an encounter will happen. It may take you just as long to walk to a monster as it would for a random encounter to trigger, but one of these is goal directed while the other involves walking around in circles and waiting.
Even while an undertale fan, agreed. The charm mainly is from the subversive stuff. (And for me characters. But you only get there when past the gameplay)
To be honest undertale isn't that good I liked the story but the only thing holding the game up was like 1 character otherwise it was a boring game. I just got through it to see the ending and didn't enjoy it
@@dough7726 yeah it's more about the story rather than gameplay and there's multiple story's which is why you can go Pacifist Route to save everyone , Neutral Route to kill some and save some, *Genocide Route killing everybody.*
I’m surprised you didn’t talk about how she felt about the story’s of the RPGs she played. To me, the Story is the part that gives combat meaning when theres a goal in mind or a plot you want to get to. Without the story, you’re essentially just fighting random enemies to fight random enemies. FF7R for example has amazing combat, but to ignore the story is kinda deliberate since its not open world, its a linear story based game
That makes sense, but I would argue that his point (her question) about the "why" of it all broaches this point somewhat. A well-constructed narrative is an awesome thing, but the appeal of the subject-matter is obviously very subjective. This was plainly obvious when watching his wife talk about how she found Disco Elysium "boring" :) Generally I'm with you, story is very important. But it's arguably one of the hardest things to find an objective formula for which is why I tend to be more interested in whether or not a game has a "fun" gameplay loop ^^
@@Micras08 like if it was any other type of game, I would agree, but traditional RPG’s are all about the story. Thats kinda the point of them, a Roll Playing Game, you’re supposed to be a different character in that world, and these games are essentially the most story heavy games in all of gaming. Zelda, by definition, is a great RPG that arguably is more about the combat/journey then the story in most games, but traditional RPGs like the Final Fantasies are literally all about the story and the combat is the seasoning
@@zachtemoro2116 I see your point but I don't agree entirely. RPGs, to me, is more about interesting locations AND characters. From those two things and interesting story can emerge by itself :) Personally I find that the FF games are kinda meh, the stories (to me) are very "standard" (for lack of better words) and the characters seem to be shallow archetypes most often. But to each their own, there's no wrong way of enjoying things :) (EDIT: Oh but I forgot the important bit xD Despite my general dislike for FF games I've tried I can certainly still appreciate why they are critically acclaimed, they have a very solid gameplay loop that offers itself well to the stories and characters that are portrayed :)) I only mention this to undercut my point about subject-matter of a story/character being a very subjective hit or miss thing often times, which to me seems to be an almost universal truth regardless of genre.
She probably didn't play enough of each title for her to grasp what the story was about. Or maybe she was getting too annoyed with the random encounters to focus on that.
As a grown woman still discovering the world of games, I thank you for this whole series and your wife for articulating to the masses my own frustrations. I'm playing Outer Worlds right now and I suuuuck at trying to shoot and move. What a learning curve for us noobs.
I found puzzle games like Portal to be an excellent starting point for people learning first person controls. Some parts require response time, but in general there's no rush from things like enemies shooting at you. I hope this helps and welcome to the crazy world of video games! There's a lot to explore.
@@spartansareneverkia6096 Speaking for myself, I managed to get through Portal using tricks like figuring out where I needed to aim before I flung myself into space, or treating the apex of a vertical jump as a stable point where I had a second to get my bearings again. I wouldn't say it helped me get better at other games, though. FPSs and combat games aren't really my thing in general - I just always die before figuring out where to shoot back. Conversely, I love stealth games, and I think a big part of it is because the gameplay loop goes: find a hiding place - watch the environment - make a plan - sudden adrenaline-powered action that succeeds or fails based mainly on how observant you were - find a new hiding place.
@@noatrope yesss, this is always my problem in FPS games as well, i watch other people play and i’m always like “how the hell do they know where they’re getting shot from” it’s so difficult for me to figure that out before i get killed first😩😂
It should help a ton if you play some basic aiming mechanic games: "Aim Lab" is free on Steam and can quickly polish up your point and click abilities.
I'm pretty sure the people who suggested undertale did more as a meme rather than as a serious question, the best starting point to me are RPGs without random encounters or controlable encounters, such as EarthBound, Paper Mario, and any Pokemon, that way she can see and avoid enemies while also having an strategy. Nintendo is quite good at making enjoyable games for less experienced players (most of the time), heck, even Golden Sun is a good starting point.
@@razbuten I can see why it would be picked - due to being low-key etc. But yeah - it's very meta, and it doesn't surprise me that, being unaware of the meta, it would just be confusing. I get this a bit with my wife and some pop culture stuff because she didn't grow up in the US, so she doesn't know some of the assumed touchstones of shows/movies being meta.
@@razbuten Let me get this straight: You comment something that is unrelated to the fact that I have two DANGEROUSLY DASHING girlfriends? Considering that I am the unprettiest UA-camr ever, having two hot girlfriends is really incredible. Yet you did not mention that at all. I am quite disappointed, dear raz
@@razbuten I think for future attempts at videos like this, you should pretty much ignore twitter polls and just give her a reasonable route of accessibility to progressively harder games as determined by you, notes that go "she's new to the genre so doesn't understand anything" is just not entertaining
You should do “it takes two” as a gamer and non-gamer starting a game at the same time playing together with different skill levels it would probably give a different response.
Funny enough, I did that with my friend. I'm a non gamer but had experience with escape rooms. The experience was lacking really because I just told them what I found as they did everything. The only struggle was getting the projector to work ( why do I have to press two buttons?! ) And the controls to interact sometimes. The only real reason I didn't have trouble moving and looking was they had me play a few other games before on controller
I second this! I (a non gamer) played it with my boyfriend (gamer) and the difference in skill level was really interesting. A lot of the time I could point out the mechanics or general "I think this needs to be done" but I sucked at remembering the controls and having to do multiple things at once. He was the complete opposite, and it made for a v entertaining first multiplayer game
My "kinda gamer" dad and I played that game (laughed a bit at the thought we were playing as a couple in the game) and it was superrr fun as it was my first time playing in a PS4
My comment goes out to "Lady" I would like to thank you for giving your time and patience for these experiments. Rpg games (for me anyways) are sort of like a good book. Some start off slow but if you keep reading for 2 or 3 chapters you eventually will be engulfed in the story and want to come back and fight through all the redonculous random encounters to find out how the story ends.
Wow, people replying to you apparently hate what you've said, even though it's a totally valid thing to say. Reading can be difficult to get into, but the right story can captivate anyone
The thing is that a good rpg is not just a good story. but I seem to be the only one who appreciates rpgs for having interesting gameplay? The ones that do have good gameplay at least.
Her partner introduced her to gaming in the worst way possible, by sitting her down in front of difficult action games and telling her to play with zero assistance. Her entire view of what gaming is has been deeply skewed from the start. I like this series so much not because of how Razbuten's wife's opinion on games has changed over the months and years, but because of how much Razbuten has learned about how to communicate gaming to non-gamers.
@@Porky7805 totally, I don’t expect her to enjoy games like this since it’s not a very fun way to get introduced to them. She’s an absolute trooper to go through with this so mad props to her. I love this series because it really highlights how a lot of game logic is somewhat illogical and confusing to people who don’t play a lot of games, you sorta take for granted that you’ve basically learnt an entire language through your experience that new players simply don’t have. It’s interesting to see how people without that background tackle the games and their thought process in solving puzzles.
Fun fact: My native tongue is french, and in french "turn-based" is "tour-de-role". But "role" can also mean the same thing as it does in english, as in "to play the role of someone." Therefore, to me "Role playing game" meant for a long time "turn based combat games". Language is fun.
@Loan Sauvagnat J'ai grandi au Québec, et on dit pas "tour-par-tour" ici... c'est bel et bien à "tour de role". Il y a plus qu'une sorte de français tu sais!
Surtout que tout par tour et tour de role signifie presque la même chose, sous entendu "on fait des actions l'une après l'autre" Et en plus tour de role est utilisé en français de france, "se présenter a tour de role" quand on est plusieurs par ex
Definitely a more descriptive title for what are refered to as "classical RPGs" or JRPG, such as old school FF and Dragon's Quest. But since the 360 era its gotten way blurrier. Also what we call "western RPGs" have very little in common with "jRPGs" beyond explicit stat systems, so its kind of a clusterfuck that we give them such similar names...
I'd say that unless and until graphics engines get _so_ good that the games can actually show the damage (and not just by adding blood or whatever) - in a way that the player can actually see at a glance -, health bars are an absolute must.
I don't. Part of the excitement is fingering out if what I'm doing is good or not. I *never* would have gotten into monster hunter if they showed the monsters health while fighting. It kills immersion and desire to try again with different builds.
I think Paper Mario is the perfect introduction to RPGs, specially TTYD, having the small QTEs makes the fights feel a lot more fun while still being menu based, with no random encounters and great companions
I still can't believe that many people recommended Undertale as a first rpg to a non gamer. The sole reason we liked it was because we were gamers, so I can't even fathom as to why anyone would think that Undertale's charm would work on a non gamer. Regardless, I really liked that Razbuten went with it because it was interesting to see how his wife reacted to the game
I mean.... I've never played a dating sim (maybe watched a couple episodes on one LP), but I've considered playing DDLC, heck I was just about to download it soon. I think as long as you have some general awareness of a genre, you can see a subversive take on it. My friend was recommending I play it when it first came out. He told me "it's a psychological horror game pretending to be a dating sim" and my immediate response was "thanks, neither of those are genres I like." ........ but I've kind of gotten curious, and as someone who generally likes story and characters I've wanted to get into some visual novels in general. ......also I really don't see why you can't enjoy MHA without seeing other shows, I think it just kinda stands on its own doesn't it?
Just remember that ANY poll is automatically assumed to be a popularity poll no matter what you tell them it's for. All people saw was "pick a game from this list" and they picked Undertale without considering the context of the poll. Many people likely thought that they had to pick one that would be played, and therefore the others wouldn't get played. That's why polls suck.
I'm a student in sociology, mainly focusing on video games and roleplaying games. And I must say that your work is a gold mine for me. Thank you for doing it. It is a great help in order to understand a ton of things about how video games are learned and build and how they need to be understood to be interacted with. I wish I could tell you how much it is important and how much it is helping with more than this simple message.
Tip: (maybe/maybe no) I think one of the problems when choosing a game for non gamers is that gamers are used to everything a "normal" game has to offer so for them "unique" or "different" games are considered great but for someone who is unfamiliar with games the most "bland/standard" games that are the most similar to our world would be the best and easiest to get into and to learn from. Good example is undertale, whilst it is a great "unique" game, for someone who doesnt play games it doesnt make any sense at all because they are unfamiliar with the "norm".
I agree, recommending Undertale to someone not familiar with video games is such a head in the clouds, pretentious take. It's like deciding to recommend someone trying to get into films 2001: a space Odyssey
I've been thinking about this since the series started. It seems like so many 'unique' games are either fusions of basic games, or subversions of them. They assume you're familiar, not just with the tropes, but the fundamental skillset. In order to build those fundamental skills, I think I'd recommend: A basic platformer like Mario to train movement A basic JRPG like Pokemon or Final Fantasy to train stat management A first-person puzzle game like Portal or Stanley Parable to train first person camera control/movement without worrying as much about bullets The first two might have to start in 2D, because 3D tends to come with the added complexity of controlling a camera. This can induce a weird sense of vertigo in people who haven't gotten their 'sea legs' for games yet.
Undertale is an interesting case, because as you said, it definitely requires you to have played at least one RPG to really "get" most of the jokes and mechanics. it subverts your typical expectations in many ways. The punchline for LV, the fact you DON'T need to massacre random animals, and as you said, she later wanted to reset to a save point in some games to try and get a better outcome, and that's another one of Undertales mechanics, that it recognizes when you do that, and kinda calls you out. Definitely not a great first RPG, though a fantastic game.
yeah its really only as beautiful and as genius as it is as it was made by a Man steeped in the Culture of RPG games for players that are also Steeped in the Culture of RPG games. to an newcomer to the hobby its nothing but weird and they wont have the frame of reference to understand why that weirdness is what makes it so awsome.
Hi Razbuten, I hope you read this as I've explored this topic a bit too. During the pandemic, I've gotten my mom into gaming (she's in her 60s). Despite attempting to do so before with little interest from her, she is definitely a gamer now, choosing to play even on her own in her free time. A HUGE barrier for her, that finally clicked is controls. I noticed the woman you live with struggling to aim her gun in Outer Worlds, and it looks like she's using a controller. For a long time we tried to get my mom into gaming using a controller on a console thinking: less buttons = easier to learn (versus PC gaming). She has a Steam account now, and while chatting/gaming online remaining distant during COVID-19 played a part in her finally enjoying gaming for the first time like this, the choice to have her try PC gaming was a big part of it. I always thought the controls on PC games would be more alienating to non-gamers, but using a computer frequently at her desk job, she was innately familiar with fine mouse movements, and where each button was (e.g. she'd be baffled and frustrated not knowing what R1 was in a tutorial section, but would immediately know what left click is, or space bar, compared to the A button, etc.) Has the woman you live with had similar experiences, or have you compared how she reacts to playing a new game on console versus PC back to back? I think it could be fascinating! As a sidenote, my mom's favourite games she's done so far are generally party style games, and a clear goal or points system to give her direction is vital. She would hate something more open ended like Elder Scrolls or Minecraft. Currently her favourites are Overcooked 2, Golf With Your Friends, (oddly) Don't Starve Together, Among Us, and (to a lesser extent) Borderlands.
I have a similar experience. I once watched my cousins play a shooting game on a controller and when I tried it myself I was just wtf-ing on what to press. Meanwhile I have an easier time with pc games since I had more muscle memory on where the letters are... though shooting games still arent my thing and would prefer rpgs and stuff, but thats just my preference lol
A lot of the draw of RPGs for me is the feeling of going on a long adventure. I think that without feeling like you're about to embark on a long journey, you could be a lot less engaged at the beginning of an RPG.
True. You don't start an RPG for the first hour of the game. You go in excited for the choices you're going to make along the way and to see the result of your actions. Going through as many RPGs as possible is not the way to have fun playing them. It's like judging the book by it's first page.
@@kaksspl True. The first "chapter" of a video game can be like, 1-2 hours of sleepy farming village life, before the bad guy finally comes to burn it down. Very few RPGs start in medias res and get right to the action.
For me an RPG was more akin to reading an engrossing book rather than playing a super stimulating video game. I get my excitement from the plot, the characters, and the world.
Same. RPGs were always about relaxing for me, even when the story had really heavy elements. Turn based titles simply allow me to "take my time", too, and I just enjoy puzzles and strategy. I've never been a huge fan of feeling adrenaline in my veins in a general sense. It makes me feel tired/stressed irl, my body doesn't handle it well. So I'm not very much a fan of anything that I'm not allowed to pause. ^_^' There are exceptions of course, some really good games that I decided to get out of my comfort zone for, just because they were THAT good (like, say, Hollow Knight or Hades). The mood I am in whenever I go to play an rpg is the same I am when I feel like watching a good movie/series, or read a book. It's less about challenging myself and more about immersing myself into the world and meeting new characters, with the little caveat that, generally speaking, the player's input matters here, be it to steer the plot towards a certain ending or in something as small setting the tone for a conversation with someone. We are not "just watching/reading" passively. If you are not the kind of person that is into interacting with the plot itself and figure out how do *you* feel about it as if you were a part of it all, then I suppose it would be pretty boring. As for me, I'm usually bored by the inexistence of plot, and repetitive multiplayer games, so there. **Shrugs**
Her: "There's too much information in this game. I didn't sign up to read a book." Me: "I guess that throws Planescape: Torment out the window." Seriously, the story is the best part of RPGs.
This series is so real. The woman I live with got animal crossing new horizon, and for WEEKS she didn't know she could run. Or sell multiple items at once. Or how to turn off the switch
lol my parents got their switch over a year ago and play animal crossing every day and still can't turn off their switch, it's perpetually in sleep mode
I think it's fair! He covered that on the first video of the series. There's a lot of things AC doesn't teach you because it's assumed people know. His series does a good job showing us how much knowledge us gamers take for granted.
While it's in hindsight, I feel like Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door likely would have been an RPG she'd have liked. With Goombella out all the time she'd have access to enemy HP totals and information on every enemy and the action commands keep battles from just being menus. I'd suggest the original, but since she didn't get far into any of the games she might not have actually gotten to the part of the game that gives the action commands in the first place.
surprisingly when I made my wife play TTYD she didn't start tattling enemies until i explained and showed her the importance. I wouldn't be surprised to see a similarity. if it doesn't so damage it's not immediately useful
Yeah. And, as for reassuring yourself, you feel somewhat obliged to answer: "Haha... yeah, that part is not that fun, but it gets better later..." *internally cry*
@@Kramoule Razbuten's way of forcing his partner's first experience with gaming to happen in a vacuum is totally different from how real people actually get into gaming. There are very few games I've ever gone into mostly blind, and I've *never* gone into a whole genre blind.
@@Kramoule Yeah, it always stings a bit when a non gamer loved one or friend says something like this to me when and kind of deflates my excitement to try and share something I really love with them. Undertale was a misstep for her first rpg though. I would have gone with FFX, Ys Lacrimosa of Dana or Dragon Quest XI and for Western rpgs, Dragon Age Origins or Mass Effect
@@Porky7805 Most of the streamers I watch routinely play games they have no concept of beforehand- specifically so they have no prior idea of what’s to come, and it’s more of a surprise. They’ll usually know the genre, but not always, and it’s something I’ve found myself doing now too. If someone recommends a game they think, I’ll give it a go. Sometimes it’s great, other times not, but the surprise element makes it all the more enjoyable
@@maskettaman1488 i understand what it is doing and i also like the game, not only because the comedy is good, but i also like the mix of bullet hell with rpgs and having to think how to defeat the monsters instead of just increasing numbers, like i think the strongest item in the game simply increases the amount of invulnerability frames after taking damage, know why he made her play undertale, but i have no idea why anyone would suggest that
i’ve often said about RPGs that they’re a good supplement to another gameplay style, or need a better hook than just “being an RPG” (like Undertale’s bullet hell gameplay or catching monsters in Pokémon), but this video helped me realize it’s a lot more complicated than that. there are a bunch of subconscious things that make my enjoyment of RPGs more varied
@@Erick_Cuevas I quit after an hour. I think undertale is best experienced with multiple people around, so you can all make jokes and enjoy the jokes the game has. I tried my best to be a kind character and spare everything, but, much like in real life, being kind doesn’t get you much, and since I was alone without anyone to playfully argue my decision to be a pacifist, I felt bored and quit.
@@MightyAverage I get that. I was playing it with a friend watching me the whole time (play at his place). He was the "witness" for our friend group. He did his best to make the game feel lively and joked here n there - a fruitless effort, ultimately. But I'm glad he was there cuz I would've 100% dropped it after an hour. If I even got to an hour haha
undertale relies heavily on a very specific type of humor that a lot of people don't enjoy, there's literally no fun to be had if you don't like the jokes
As someone who recently managed to convert his wife into a gamer. I have to say that old school point and clicks have been a huge hit, Sam and Max, Grim Fandango, and Day of the Tentacle have been huge hits, and have gotten her more interested in RPG's as an interactive story.
As a non-gamer whose husband has been gradually encouraging me to play instead of just happily watching him game, my top three would be Katamari Damacy (hilarious, catchy music, AND easy to master makes it my #1), Diablo III, and Ratchet and Clank. D3 was great for familiarizing myself with the controller since camera angles are not a factor at all. Ratchet and Clank, well, I never finished it and still would rather watch my husband play, but it was fun and I'll probably go back to finish it someday.
One of my first when I was little was the might and magic series, I often played it with one of my parents. It's simple to learn and play but the difficulty can jump drastically since there is nothing to stop you accidentally travelling ti an area full of enemies like 50 levels above ypu and getting wrecked XD dragon jumpscares are best jumpscares haha
I was reminded by the comment on Lady's struggle to move the camera in games, I had huge struggles with it as well. Then a gamer friend told me about inverted controls and I realised I wasn't bad at games. Game settings are a huge thing for a non-gamer to learn about, even on a console.
@@yulhenderson2267 no I’m a pseudo completionist. I always try to see at the least all the extra content I missed on the previous playthrough since I just really like extra stuff beyond the story
From this video, and from her reaction to Undertale, the chances of her getting engaged in visual novels is hard, since aside from some small mechanics, it’s just reading a lot, and more about Sorry rather than gameplay, it doesn’t stimulate you nearly as much as a shooting game
I love this series. It's extremely insightful for understanding the perspective of someone who doesn't play video games like I do. It helps me understand their struggle instead of judging for not knowing how stuff works.
I'm terrible at video games, but have been playing them before I could read. So it irks me when someone puts on an air of authority, but they know nothing and are playing worse than I do.
I'm shocked that you didn't include a Paper Mario game or M&L game. Simple low damage numbers, easy to plan strategies, no random encounters, optional enemy HP bars, I could go on. The perfect introductory RPG.
@@Bee8467 That makes sense. Undertale's main hook is subverting gamers' expectations of what an RPG is required to have (violence, etc). It might fall flat if the player in question doesn't have prior experiences.
agree. i’m noticing through these videos he picks games that are what he likes most, which would be fine if the games he picked weren’t some of the hardest or ‘deepest’ ones out there.
In hindsight, you should have added EarthBound as one of the RPGs she should play. For its time its one of the only RPGs with enemies on screen. The setting of the game is something she'd be familiar with as well, that being the American suburbs, something very out of the ordinary for RPGs at the time. With it one of my favorite games of all time, I was disappointed you didnt have it in your list as I think its a unique RPG that is beginner friendly and has aspects that shed be familiar with
honestly we should just nix the phrase "role playing game" and come up with a new one I propose "Character-Having-Upgrading-Numbers-Getting-Uber-Strong"s
As someone whose gaming started with Pokemon and other games that don't rely on reflexes or timing, the hybrid real-time + turn-based system of Final Fantasy XV and VII Remake is a genius system. It appeals to people who are used to turn-based RPGs but want to get into action RPGs, which is honestly a hard thing to bridge.
I didn't get a Wii until I was about 12 or 13 (basically at the ass end of the Wii's life cycle) and before then I had played games pretty much solely on my DS. I remember how awkward it was for me at first to get used to moving in a 3D space with the analog stick, and flipping the camera around. I fell off so many thing in twilight princess....
I've just always loved that style of rpg. I like being able to slow things down if I have to while still being able to enjoy the game's story. Some of my favorites are Star Wars: KOTOR and Neverwinter Nights 2.
As a gamer myself, I am glad when enemy health bars are visible. I love that shit. And honestly, RPGs are indeed only called that because of the numbers and such relating to Dungeon and Dragons.
As a monster hunter fan, I am on the side of not showing enemy HP. Seeing their bodies get more damaged, them running away and being out of breath is much more immersive.
Since you've had her on action RPGs now, it would be interesting to see your wife go through at least the first Kingdom Hearts since Disney characters and worlds are something most people are familiar with if not attached to. To see how well external grounding and familiarity may affect her enjoyment. But those also have super long cutscenes and slow starts.
@@Phoenix_Dempsey as a dedicated kh fan, I'd say that 2 is the worst game to start with. I'm counting even days ans Recom in that too, kh2 start REQUIRES you understand and enjoy the first game's story and gameplay to get out of twilight town, and it throws a lot at you all at once under the pretense that you already know and enjoyed kh1/com the best game to start on is kh1 cause the story telling is in a shoenen anime format and it's not really clunky, there's a reason it's argued to be the best in the series even to this day, it has flaws such as the platforming being atrocious but aside from that kh1 is the best place to start unless you are into rhythm games then I'd say MoM is the best starting place since it helps with the story, KH2 may be arguably the best game in the series (depends on if you want flashy, details, or graphics) but it isn't good for starting. Especially since it's likely the most diffuclt game (though days is the hardest to playthrough)
Yeah I actually disagree. I went into KH before I was very familiar with Final Fantasy or JRPGs and it was rough. If you're not into the high melodrama of the storyline, it's like being forced to watch cringe before you're allowed to play the fun parts. Like the game itself is gatekeeping you for being a filthy casual, LOL. (Yeah I'm looking at you GUMMI SHIPS.) I definitely understand why people love it, but KH fandom is an acquired taste and has a pretty high barrier to entry. Which was kind of a wild decision because, as you pointed out, the franchises involved are so accessible and yet the games themselves are... very much not that, at least from a story standpoint. So maybe not as beginner friendly as one might imagine, but those are the same qualities that make it unique and special to so many people.
I just started playing through the KH series, and KH1 was super fun for me, as someone who doesn't play pretty much any action-y games. Even my sister, who finds Pokemon too confusing and literally only plays Animal Crossing (and also never had an anime phase), started playing it and is having a lot of fun with it. The Disney hook into the story, combined with mash X to win gameplay (with magic as something extra you can throw in once you're comfortable/bored) makes it super newb friendly. KH2 has been a big step up in difficulty for me, there's just so much more going on. I have to hit triangle now?? Am I going to have to learn how to block??? It's definitely not great for a non-gamer
Because KH3 starts in a Disney/Hercules-themed area I think it would make the easiest introduction to the series' mechanics, even ignoring the QoL features and more modern graphics and controls. The overarching story would make no sense, but at least it launches players into the gameplay quickly and allows them to play as the Sora they'd be playing for the rest of the game right away.
Huge props to your wife for continuing to try despite relatively unhappy outcomes. Love these videos Razbuten. Keep up the good work and stay safe out there :)
I've been playing games since I was a kid, but the idea of an mmorpg is still intimidating. Mostly, I don't like committing to a long term farming system.
Do you like story more? I heard that ff14 is one of the best mmorpg that focuses on story out there…. You just have to sit through 40 hours for it to get good BUT HEY it’s free till lvl 60 so you could try that?
I see what you mean from an outside perspective but i feel like depending on the game the grind is just as fun and engaging as the rest of the game. For example, when i was nearing max level in WoW classic i did the longest dungeon in the game about a dozen times to get a piece of gear from the final boss, but i enjoyed every run even when i didn't get it because i got to keep meeting and interacting with new people every time and teach the ones i met in my later runs things about the dungeon thqt i had been taught in my first few
@@AndrewIHanna Yeah, back when I used to play Super Mechs (and it was actually a good game) I used to live the grind 😂 I would build different strategies based on whatever equipment I could get, and the grind's payoff was the visible difference in the strategies available to me.
This is one of the reasons my friends have recently gotten into playing Guild Wars 2. You can actually avoid the long term farming and be completely fine. the narrative of the game runs throughout every release and the exploration of the world has been really fun for them.
hahaha... yep. i know a friend who's the exact same too. I made him play other FFs before that. He didn't like any of them at all. Pretty much was anti-every-game that was not as convenient as FFX ever.
I CANNOT WAIT for the D&D vid! A large portion of my experience with the game has been teaching new players to do things and running first games so seeing someone else’s perspective on that process will be awesome!
Learning P&P RPGs has an even weirder learning curve than PC RPGs, partially because you have to know the rules since you're the one doing the math not the computer, and partially because the sheer freedom is crippling until you get used to it and remember that you're an actor playing a character, meaning that you have to slip into the skin of a fiction character of your own making and simulate their emotional and thought processes. I don't think much good or educational will come from a single brief campaign with only 1 player, though I would prefer to be wrong.
@@Khorothis I didn't assume that Raz was going to be doing 1 player dnd. Duo games can be excellent though, and I cant imagine they would be a bad introduction to the genre since the DM can focus entirely on the players wants and needs, take combat really slow and easy or simply avoid it to suit their taste, and easily run through any fiddly rules stuff as it comes without the weight of the other players waiting around the table.
For me it's the characters and stories that make me love games. I love the struggle and the journey. Getting to imagine a world or life that I would never really be able to see. You can see so many different worlds and experience so many different characters and encounter many different problems to be solved. For me that's exciting and engaging.
I sighed, knowing she was not at all alone in that attitude in 'newer people'. When a popular animated movie shows future humans as blobs of fat in automatic vehicles that provide them all they may need...they know what they're talking about. meaning that when the aliens come to destroy us, those of us still with a bit of wits will probably thank them.
@@hansolav5924 The attitude of newer people that don't want to read about useless things going on in a useless video game? If anyone's gonna end up a fat blob it's not gonna be her, it's gonna be the gamers.
This series can be as educational to gamers as it is to his wife, I think. The fact that so many people suggested Undertale as a FIRST role playing game makes me think the average gamer really didn't understand what made Undertale interesting. It's literally an rpg for people burned out on rpgs. I feel like a big part of gaming's inaccessibility is the difficulty gamers have with talking about games and this series does a great job of highlighting that.
@@ngwoo they probably didn’t, to be honest. The gaming community is really susceptible to group think and mob mentality. With all the initial buzz around Undertale, I have no doubt a large group of people played it after they had already decided it was brilliant, thus failing to experience it critically
She seems like the kind of person who needs explosions (or rather the female equivalent: romance) for her to be entertained. "What? Reading & thinking? HOW is this fun" I would so tread on thin ice if i were in his shoes^^ ;)
@@michaelleue7594 I love Disco Elysium, but it definitely needs a specific mood and enough energy to concentrate on the reading. It's probably easier these days as more lines are voiced, but it used to be mostly just reading and as such, as an activity more similar to reading a book than playing a video game.
@@Blirre again, "more similar to reading a book than playing a videogame"...doesn't that apply to every CRPG? I played PoE and that's exactly what i thought, but i mostly loved it. I mean, AAA-Mainstream videogames are more like watching a movie than playing a game.
Shit, can we even escape that in videogames nowadays? Even fucken Doom Eternal has a shit-ton of reading for you to do if you wanna understand the lore of the game...
When I was still pretty new to games, that's exactly why I stopped playing Morrowind after an hour or two. I don't remember much of it, but I remember that almost EVERY. SINGLE. DIALOGUE. was a freaking wall of text and I was just so mentally exhausted after such a small amount of time. I plan to go back to it now that I've been playing games for a few years and am actually excited about that part, but when you're new, holy shit that was a lot.
The thing with RPGs is that many of them don't eventually get to a point where they're suddenly exciting and fun because the fun comes from what you put into the game. In any mainline Dragon Quest game, the individual fights can often be boiled down to repeatedly mashing the A button until you can move on, but the fun comes from the accumulative effect of all those battles; the growth in strength over time, the uncovering of further plot threads, the discovering of new secrets and treasures along the way. You may get a boss once in a while that takes some actual thought and strategy to defeat and those are definitely moments of actual tension and excitement when done well, but just having the actual tools and skills needed to defeat the boss in the first place reinforces the feeling that your hard work paid off over time, especially if you're under-leveled when you first encounter the boss and need to go back and do a bit of grinding.
The draconian quest feature on dq11 was a nice touch. Without it on, the game seems incredibly easy. Good for those who like to play casual However, with them on its challenge and fun for veterans and those who like strategizing. Can be a nightmare with a couple stacked together. Really wish pokemon could add a difficulty feature like this: Ex. - No free pokemon centers - Your super effective attacks do regular damage - reduced/no experience from super weak opponents - randomly disables one of your pokemon's moves for each available turn
Personally, if you were to revisit this whole RPG experiment at some point, I would make a few changes: first, in the turn based RPG department, change up a few of the games to ones that are more short form and attention grabbing, as well as have more charm. Chrono Trigger (play until the End of Time or until getting to the Future), Bug Fables (play until the start of Chapter 2 or the first Miniboss), Paper Mario & the Thousand Year Door (play til… idk), and Miitopia (cuz why not?). These families of games have far more unique combat styles, with Chrono trigger having simple characters that have several unique interaction with each other, while Paper Mario & Bug Fables have action commands to make it so that your wife still has the strategic aspect of choosing but also interactiveness to keep her engaged, and Miitopia… because it’s funny. Not only that, but except for Miitopia, none of these games have random encounters. I would also take some time to maybe have her dive into some of the more story centric games. Fire Emblem: Three Houses & Xenoblade Chronicles (Definitive of course, not 2) have unique combat styles that may intrigue her, and their more story centric designs may pull her in. For Fire Emblem probably stop when you get to the monastery, and for Xenoblade get to the end of the attack on Colony 9 (I know that’s…. A long time, but it’s only at that point she’ll see where the story starts). You could probably pick a third option, but that would be far too time consuming. Since the options in this experiment would have her spending far more time with every game, it would probably be best to keep the game library small. You’re also gonna want to stop with any one game if your wife wants to stop. RPG’s tend to require investment, so you have to wonder if the lady you live with is going to want to invest time into these games, which would be an interesting part to explore for these experiments. Edit: Oh, I would also recommend maybe adding Earthbound and Deltarune to this list. Earthbound because it’s also one of those weird RPG’s with a ton of personality and all, plus you’re not playing as you you’re playing as these assorted characters, which the game makes clear from the start. Deltarune because Chapter 1 is a much more complete story, it’s not trying to be a subversive RPG, and because it’s a lot easier to enjoy the characters because you’re constantly interacting with them. That’s one thing I think you ended up missing with the games you gave: attachment to the characters. The Lady You Live with was playing games that require a lot of time to get attached, which is probably why she had the whole opinion “I came to play a game, not read a book”. Plus Deltarune’s combat is fun and not random encounter based.
I would have highly recommended Mass Effect. You said she's had some experience with shooters, and it's a cover shooter so it's pretty forgiving. It's also very role-play heavy with the dialogue wheel and all of the skills and level systems.
Agreed, although I would argue Dragon Age is known for attracting a lot of us women for a reason. I'd like to see what she thinks of DAO or DAI, but DAI might be too overwhelming since some people complain about the amount of sidequests.
@@NickaLah agreed someone not used to games might prefer DAO. DAI might be a bit confusing to get into if you're not used to rpg's. I started the Dragon Age series with Inquisition but I was already used to that type of games. I'm also a person that reads the lore a lot. Every time I got a codex entry I read it to understand more of the world.
sounds like she would have enjoyed games with visible non-random encounters like the mana series, chrono trigger, lufia 2, and earthbound. Glad she enjoyed pokemon though.
Yes. I was legit disappointed that she didn't get to try titles from the SNES, which has some of the most traditional and beginner-friendly RPG titles, like Chrono Trigger and EarthBound. Man, I have a feeling she would really enjoy EarthBound, even though she didn't like Undertale.
@@danielbueno8474 ya, i myself am not really a fan of undertale despite liking weird games, was playing lisa at the time undertale was released, dread set in when i saw lisa in the beginning, cause that game.... was pretty dark.
22:40 The end be like the Anakin-Padmeme: "Wait, wait...first time?" "Yeah, you´re gonna delete the footage from the last time. This is the first time, right?" "..." "You´re gonna delete the footage from the last time. This is the first time, right?"
Probably the best implementation of random encounters I've seen was in Shadow Madness. It used the typical Final Fantasy system (no enemies populated the screen), but a sound effect played when one was about to start. The player could then press a button combination to crouch. If they reacted quick enough, they would avoid the battle entirely, giving them a good amount of control over when battles started without having to populate the screen with enemies.
Since she already has a pretty good idea of what she likes and dislikes in a game, it seems like a good time to make a list with these bullet points and choose a game together that would suit her. Maybe don't limit it to a specific genre though.
One of my favorite parts of the latest Nintendo Direct was them describing the Metroid gameplay without saying Metroidvania. I’m so used to it I just think of it as its own genre
My girlfriend wasn't a big gamer and she's much more interested in story than pushing buttons at the right time (the only time she has a good time with that sort of game is when it's co-op and I can jump in to help her). What I realized is that she really enjoyed games like Disco Elysium and In Other Waters where they feel more like interactive novels rather than "normal games". Especially if you treat it as a role playing and interactive story/novel/movie where you could have multiple endings depending on your choices and sometimes some luck. Try pitching Disco Elysium as a narrated and interactive novel rather than a game, maybe your wife will like it more. Admittingly, it's super trippy in the first 5 minutes of Disco Elysium with all the "Reptilian Brain" thingies and the almost nonsense responses, but hey, a lot of novels start kinda trippy as well (for example, Flowers for Algernon, Fahrenheit 451, etc.), and you truly get into the story after you've read a dozen pages or so. At least that's my experience with Disco Elysium. I might be biased enjoying classic tabletop RPGs and novels and storytelling in general, but do try to put Disco Elysium in the light of a creative way of storytelling, building a fictional world that you can explore in, rather than a "game you play to get your adrenaline pumping". Maybe your wife will enjoy it more and maybe even resonate with it like so many others.
Hi there, I know your comment's fairly old, but please tell her that she has absolutely fantastic taste in games. Interactive novels are some of my most favorite games to play and it makes me so happy to specifically hear about someone else loving In Other Waters! It's a pretty obscure little game that doesn't have a lot of appeal even to those who like visual novel games because you aren't playing from a character's direct perspective so much as you are the computer UI in the character's life support system... p.s. If she hasn't already played Night in the Woods, she absolutely needs to. It sounds like she would love it.
I think health bars become more necessary when there are more potential outcomes for how much damage an attack can do. That immediate feedback is useful to strategize when there are multiple different strategies and ways to deal damage. For example, The Dark Souls 3 King of the Storm takes WAY more damage on its head, so if it didn't have a health bar, it might take many minutes for some players to get to the second half. You can somewhat help this by having damage numbers but not health bars.
There are more alternatives to show which moves are more valid with enemies. Weak points can contrast from the rest of the body, hit animations may be dependant on the power of the hit, strike could cause a visual, particle effect, intensity of which could be scaled with damage. But I agree, if game offers good and bad choices of attack, it should be clearly telegraphed.
based on this, maybe the best introduction to RPGs is paper mario. menu based combat that still has some element of timing and execution, you can see enemies before you fight, entertaining writing, fairly simple systems
I'd love to see you and The Lady You Live With cover some co-op games! It Takes Two would be a really cool game to see you guys experience, as it has gotten a LOT of positive reviews when it comes to a two-player-experience. I personally loved playing this with a passing friend and I cannot imagine how much more fun it would be playing with a significant other!
One of my friends first ever game was Ori and the Blind Forest. She struggled like crazy and took a long time to finish the game but loved it. She loved the way the game looked and liked the save function. You should have her try some Metroidvanias.
It might not seem like it, but Sans is in fact in this thumbnail. Also, to everyone asking why I didn't have her play Skyrim, it is because she already played it in the first gaming for a non-gamer; go watch it please, thank you.
ok
Is it next to the F?
Wonder where it is
Oh no
@Razbuten where is he!
people recommending Undertale as your first rpg are not thinking with their head.
I think you are right. They are thinking with their heart as to them it seems approachable and it meant a lot to them, but yeah, it is a tough entry point.
@@razbuten I feel like it’s also made with the assumption you know the stereotypical RPG. It’s less effective if you’ve never grinded through dungeons of enemies before
I think it really depends on the player and what they want out of a game. Undertale was my first RPG, more or less the first game I ever played, and I loved the story so much I continued playing other games even if at the time the rpg jokes went over my head.
@@DeathnoteBB Yeah, a better starting point to introduce the "stereotypical RPG" would be a Dragon Quest game.
Really? Undertale was the first game I ever played
People recommending undertale is a great example of blindness that entrenched gamers have to nongamer experiences. They just assume that all these aspects of gaming are obvious and not learned behaviors.
That's nicer than what I was gonna say. We'll go with that.
+
Yeah when i heard that i was like "Obviously wrong, but could be funny lol."
Completely agree.
I mean, I played it with a (new gamer) friend and we loved the humour, and that's all that mattered for undertale. Neither of us thought the subversion was mind blowing because we both mutually agreed to do full pacifist in our first run without ever expecting being rewarded for it. It's a great game for both the player and the back seater.
How many games does it take to stop being a non-gamer? The world may never know.
I mostly am aiming to have her experience some of the major types of games before ending the series. I think I have like 4-5 more ideas for videos and then will call it quits. Personally, anyone who plays games, regardless of skill, can be a gamer, but I think the name of the series works as shorthand to let people know what it will be about opposed to changing the naming scheme to reflect how incrementally more experienced she is with each passing video.
I'd say it's when they have a good grasp of games and generally you can just understand the basics of most games you play without needing a tutorial to show the more common stuff
@@razbuten grand strategy for a non gamer
@@razbuten You could also try to bring someone else in, might be fun
@@razbuten I sincerely hope you keep making content past that, because it is all wonderful.
"how is this fun? i am just throwing compliments at a frog!" genuinely killed me lmfao
I MEAN WHY NOT?
Undertale Is Such A Cool Game?
@@ДмитрийРубежов-э1б you completely missed my point, loll
It's sorta nuts to me that Pokemon's differentiation of "safe" vs "random encounter zone" wasn't a no-brainer implementation for every future turn-based RPG in history in the same way that other genre norms got created and improved on based on examples in a singular title. It's even MORE nuts to me that Pokemon ITSELF never used its own strategy within its very own water and cave sections. Just create a visually distinct "grass" section in the water and caves like every other zone?!
I think that one of the effect or goal of not creating this separation in caves and on water is to make them more dangerous and tense. At least it is how it felt to younger me. Caves felt perilous and the atmosphere oppressing because encounters could pop up at anytime. Couple that with obscurity because I didn't have flash at the time and you get quite the experience.
I like that some zones are entirely dangerous.
Hoenn actually had a zone of grass for underwater sections, like seaweed parts. It wasn’t the only place to find pokemon it was just different pokemon
actually, yeah. I've been playing Octopath and I would at least like a sparsely used safe zone. Getting a random encounter in a short distance to a npc or save point doesn't really add anything. Personally it doesn't annoy me much but still.
There is a distinct "grass" section. It's called "the inside of the cave".
I think having specific areas where there aren't any "safe zones" is a fine way to change up the experience, but it's definitely weird that no other series has adopted the "tall grass" method of random encounters in general.
One thing I have found interesting with this series is that you almost always select the games she will play. I personally would think having her choose from either the box art, the synopsis on the back of the case or seeing a trailer of a game she is excited about would be a great way of seeing how a non-gamer would get into video games. It's how most of us go into video games, especially back in the day when there wasn't an internet.
"It's how most of us go into video games" I disagree. I feel like most people get into video games by trying a game at a friend's house or by buying a game from a friend's recommendation. If you've never played a game and it's not something that interests you that much, you're probably not gonna stumble upon a game in the wild and tell yourself "hey, I should play this".
@@maxinoume True. However, after I got into gaming as a kid I used to go to the game stores, look at game covers and buy something based on that. I would never do it these days, but it worked out wonderfully for me 20 years ago. If the selection is good then it should work.
For sure. The games my wife has played (or backseat gamed) and enjoyed the most were games she picked out for random reasons. Spiritfarer because the trailer was so good, Outer Wilds because she liked the sound track, Stardew because she liked the idea of forming relationships with the villagers, etc. Oftentimes if I choose a game, she's not super interested
@@maxinoume I kinda agree with you, but I also kinda don't. When I was a kid in the early 2000s I didn't have a console, only a PC with an SNES emulator and a bunch of SNES games (450 to be exact), and aside from Mario and Donkey Kong, I didn't know a single SNES game, so I had to choose which one to try based on their names alone. That way I got to know, play and love a lot of titles that never got much attention, but that meant the world to me when I was little, and which I probably wouldn't try if I could see how they were like beforehand.
On the other hand, with the huge amount of games being made by everyone and their grandmas knowadays, I am SO grateful for the internet, for trailers and for being able to watch gameplays and let's plays before I decide which game to buy, since it has saved me A LOT of money and/or stress for playing a game I bought but didn't like.
So I guess it is good being able to know a game before playing it, but it doesn't hurt to go in blindly based on name or box art alone from time to time :)
(Btw, one thing I miss nowadays are playable demos. No matter how much I watch someone play a game, it will never be the same as trying it for myself. It's bullshit that AAA games rarely release demos anymore.)
@@danielbueno8474
I almost agree with your whole comment except when I watch gameplay on somewhere like youtube I find myself not fully enjoying the game since I know what will happen up to the point I stopped watching, which would be fine but rushing straight there makes the game too hard for my low level character or too much of a grind for me to want to play
I think the only games I don't really have that much of an issue with are bethesda's fallout games and skyrim, because no matter how samey the story is and how many times I go to the same Dragon's Reach dungeon, I find that the different ways I force myself to play differently than before keeps some of it fresh
Lady: My enemy is on low health. I'm gonna risk it and attack.
Now she is a true RPG player
"I know this doesn't seem like a good idea, but... Like, if he's dead, he can't hurt me, right?"
Now she just needs to hoard consumables and she's perfect
She's saving her potion for a harder fight in the future!
@@lockretvids "But I might need it later!"
"You're literally fighting the final boss!"
@@KingNedya "What if there's a second phase!?"
So much of Undertale is weird for a reason, parodying tutorials, gear, enemy types, battle systems, game mechanics, fantasy archetypes and worlds, bosses, and even puzzles, but if you’ve never played a game before, it all does just seem arbitrary
Is there a video on this ?
@@Shallabais100 probably
@@Shallabais100 yea this one
It’s like listening to “complex” music - to a non-musician or just casual listener it just sounds weird, to someone who knows the references and has context of what is being expanded upon or even the barriers that are being broken down it’s very interesting
Weird? That game seems boring af compared to Skyrim, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, etc. I would literally recommend Earthbound on the SNES over Undertale, or Golden Sun on the GBA.
Honestly, I would even recommend the old table top RPG of Dungeons & Dragons, with pen and paper, over Undertale... I understand the Lady and I've played tons of RPGs.
Making a non gamer play Undertale first was an interesting decision LOL
Yes that is probably like the opposite of what toby fox expected the regular player would be.
I watch your videos and you comment in videos i watch... what is this cycle
Hearing about somebody not enjoying Undertale did hurt.
@@carstenhilbert5472 I didn’t enjoy Undertale
So much of Undertale hinges on the expectations of a traditional RPG. I think it is kinda useless for a non-gamer to play it.
"How is this fun? I'm complimenting a frog"
She's asking us gamers the questions we stoped asking ourselves a long time ago
( stunned pufferfish gif )
No, she's on track. I stopped playing many RPGs years ago because of dumb crap like that. With so many options out there, I don't have to play some convoluted, unfun mess that "gets good" after 40 hours of gameplay. In fact, the most notorious RPG of all time is know for this epic dropping of the ball, Final Fantasy XIII.
Lmao. This comment is gold.
@@isturbo1984 I maintain that FFXIII never happened. The game doesn't exist.
Because empathy is atypical, makes individual encounters more unique, frogs are nice, empathy is nice, etc.
The final video in this series should be “What Gaming is like for a Gamer”
yeah that is the plan lol
@@razbuten soup
Or even better: What Marriage is like for a Gamer
Or probably "What non gaming is like for a gamer"
What an arc
I doubt you read comments on videos this old but I wanted to let you know that your wife is now officially the reason I'm adding enemy health bars to my game lol
How is the progress of your game going?
How is the progress of your game going?
@@silentxwxlf poorly, my laptop shit out shortly after my original comment :(
@@tessaleigh785 damn thats kinda sad, hope you can find progress soon!
How is the progress of your game going?
You fell into a classic trap when people recommend stuff they recommend their favorite, but they forget that often times that the reason something is their favorite is because it subverted and played off of other tropes making it a masterwork. For new people with none of the background it's just a so so work. Think if your first super hero exposure was one punch man.
Such a good example!
What do you mean the Z block is my favorite character!
I'm so glad I was immersed in superhero content before finding OPM! It changed the whole game.
yea recommending undertale to someone who has never played an RPG is a really strange choice
@@M00SHTY it's an easy trap to fall into. Undertale in the gaming community is highly praised, but it's praised because of the way it subverts the genre. I imagine it might be easy to look over what makes undertale so good when recommending it to someone with virtually no exposure to the genre.
You keep this up, and she’ll eventually become, “The lady I don’t live with anymore.”
You keep this up and she’ll eventually become “a gamer” instead of a “non-gamer”
@@Lafalot54 My thoughts as well. All of us started as non-gamers until we found a game that piqued our interest. My grandmother isn't interested in these new-fangled games (mostly as she's 81, has glaucoma, and now hand-tremors), but she reminisces fondly about her days with the Atari and playing Pacman when my mom and her sisters were gone at school...and then not wanting to give it back when they got home, lol! She was a very strong force in encouraging our mom to get us into gaming. She sent us a SNES for Christmas (and probably our NES as well), feeling that all children should know the joy of playing video games.
Thanks for being one a kind, grandma, love you lots :) I should call her while I still can...
@@Lafalot54 I have my doubts. I'm not saying it to be mean, but I feel that if she's still struggling with moving and shooting at the same time after one year of playing games, maybe they just aren't for her.
@@Nirwanda001 Maybe shooters aren't her type of game. I myself am horrible at shooters even though I've been playing games for years. I prefer more "casual" games such as the sims, or minecraft. My favorite franchise is Zelda, but every time I see an enemy I would rather run away than fight it
@@Lafalot54 Yeah, that's a fair point. But the fact she finds rpg combat boring makes me think slow paced games aren't her thing, either. Though maybe I'm reading too much into this, hahaha.
"I will be an archer and I want a pet bear" is such a big vibe though
So vex from vox machina
I'm still trying to understand this sentence
So where is the episode where she learns D&D? I wanna see how she handles her new bear friend!
@@dr7gon777 I was thinking for a split second she'd somehow already seen Crit Role and I was so waiting for her to say she wanted her bear to be named Trinket lol
Hahaha real
New Player: "I will be an archer."
Everyone: "Okay, you can be a ranger."
Me: "A fighter with a bow it is!"
Yeah. Would probably be the better starting point.
The main reason is the stereotype of rangers using bows. They have full weapon proficiencies they can totally be a great sword user.
He called ranger too early but it ended up being a good call since she wanted a pet bear
Arcane Archer, baby
@@AndrewIHanna Yeah, it even led me to believe that she may have a little more knowledge about the game than I first thought - like knowing rangers can have animal companions and such.
To be fair, in some systems such as Pathfinder a Fighter with a bow would be a better archer than a Ranger, since he would be more specialized, while a Ranger would have other features (an animal companion, maybe some magic, etc.).
“A game where you play a character is every game ever.”
*Looks at Tetris*
Looks at Civilization
looks at anno
@@nessesaryschoolthing well civ at least you play the leader of a civilization. The advisors treat you as such and diplomacy as a whole treats you as such.
@@jammo7370 You SORTA do, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Why do you live for thousands of years? Why do you stay in power even after a revolution changes the government? It's not like Crusader Kings where you play as a PERSON, you basically are the whole civilization.
In Tetris you play yourself playing Tetris. The ultimate character driven experience
I imagine most people who voted to start with Undertale did so because of the ravenous fan base rather than it actually being a good starting point. The whole point of the game is to subvert gamers' expectations. A really daft place to start with some who has none of those expectations or norms.
It's possible they were just worried about the rigid formulas of RPGs. For example, in Dragon Quest V, I'm taking a quest to protect a little kitten from abuse. It involves breaking into a castle, and helping some dead people with their haunted castle.
No, the dead aren't abusing the cat. The violent animal abuse is being done by human children. Also, the heroes are human children too.
Anyways, there are many, many, dead animals by the time the little kids are leveled up enough to go play Ghostbusters. And the story never acknowledges this. In fact, the kitten becomes a party member, and only the cartridge limitations prevent the game from showing me how our team dressed the cat for battle. (Hat and loincloth are your starter options.)
I feel the same way about Divinity Original Sin 2! That game has so many terrible design decisions, so many flaws, but the people who like it are so AGGRESSIVE in their support for it, enough to trick people (like me) into thinking it must be something great and buying it: it isn’t. It’s a hilarious broken entertaining mess, no more.
Just morons who want to see their favorite game on youtube, it has no sense or meaning to sugest a game like that.
I think they picked it to see how someine who doesnt underdtand RPG tropes would react to those tropes being subverted.
I think they chose it because it would be interesting for them not fun for her.
@@charlieomalley7615 How can someone react to subverted expectations when he/she doesnt even have expectations to begin with... ?
That moment in Fire Red where she overestimated her Squirtle was hilarious because I'm pretty sure we've all suffered from hubris like that on many an occasion.
Cries in nuzlocke.
9:52 - as someone who also loathes random encounters, I cannot tell you how much I related to this reaction.
No one really like random encounters. At best they're a minimal annoyance, at worst a massive pain.
Even Dragon Quest decided to abandon them
Fuck all JRPGs which do this. But only this mechanic, because I'm sure the rest of the experience must be neat. I'll never know.
Really agree. I tried the demo of Final Fantasy 7 once because I thought it looked interesting and I liked the cartoony low poly art style (reminded me of Little Big Adventure, which I loved), but this caused me to stop playing immediately. I tried one more time later with the demo of FF8, found it obtuse and impenetrable, and never played another JRPG. Also, OH MAN, the annoyance of not seeing the health of enemies (and zero other indicators, like body language)! This was the other reason I hated FF, no way to tell if you're almost done with an encounter or if you're going to be stuck for hours going in circles doing the same thing over and over because you're using the wrong strategy or whatever.
So, you just did this EPIC magical attack that needed a 5 minute cutscene and the result is... nothing happened.
@@ninjadodovideos Yep I wholeheartedly relate to that. Even in Pokemon on the Gameboy it just annoyed me to run around and be surprised with this insufferable enemy encounter sound. I wanted to like JRPGs, especially since they have a knack for fun, whacky (albeit overwritten) stories.
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 I am so glad DQ 11 doesnt have them. It also has a lot of other QoL Improvements, like all team members always getting exp, regardless if they fought or even died, and the option to speed up battles of course
Lady: "I'll be an archer."
Raz: "Okay, so a Ranger."
Memory of Jocrap, instantly: "Just play a Fighter with a bow, it's way better."
She wants a pet bear though, and in 5e, I think Ranger is the only option for that. Or at least the only option with mechanical rules to facilitate it.
Oh I know this one all to well as I have been teaching my children how to play dungeons and dragons.
And now you know how to be a true gamer. You're Welcome
I feel like this really only applies to pre-rework Player's Guide subclass rangers - things like Gloomstalker, Horizon Walker and Fey Wanderer are really fun and can keep pace with other martial classes. Drakewarden and Swarmkeeper seem cool too but I've never seen them played so cant comment.
(I do get that the comment is a joke, Im not tryna be a killjoy I swear)
@@merevel436 This user here is a god amongst men. Thank you for your service
Playing Undertale without having any knowledge of RPGs is like watching Space Balls without having any knowledge about Star Wars or the Sci-Fi genre at all.
It was a *pretty* bad place to start IMO.
I would have suggested Pokemon Fire Red, Child of Light or Chrono Trigger - those are at least manageable since (most of the time) you can actually choose when to fight.
Yeah, Chrono Trigger was the first thing that came to mind in the random encounter section.
Chrono trigger is the first thing that came to my head too as a starter RPG. It doesn't have random battles starts off pretty quick. No filler stuff really. and the combat is more engaging than other turn based combat with the duel and triple techs and team makeups. Its the perfect rpg to me and perfect place to start if you haven't played rpgs before imo
i played Undertale without any rpg knowledge and it still became one of my favourite games of all time
@@hazer3248 yeah, but you didn't understand the parodies, that's the point. RPGs are really good if you like movies, books and stories in general, but if you try them with any other mindset, you're going to hate them because you'll get bored easily.
Or Dragon Quest 11. Would be the perfect start tbh.
The problem I've always had with random battles is that the frequency is just never right. It always feels like when you are actually trying to get anywhere or do something you'll get one every 3 steps, but when you actually want to grind for levels suddenly all the monsters have taken a lunch break.
Yeah, but that's usually at least just observational bias, or whatever it's called, where you notice more the stuff that negatively affects your current objective, rather than what furthers it. So, enemies in the way when trying to get somewhere, or no enemies when wanting to train/level. When, most likely, on the whole it's balanced.
@@Xaphanify I think he means the endgame dungeons which have the most stuff in them and usually have higher enemy encounter rates than earlier in the game
Bravely default lets you pick the encounter rate and it basically fixes everything
Most modern games don’t do random encounters. Even dragon quest ditched them once technology allowed.
@@Xaphanify you're probably right about observational bias, but the implication is that it's impossible to balance random encounters in a way that's satisfying.
The big problem is that the system's fundamentally undercut player agency. If your goal is to get from point A to point B, a monster that you see can be an obstacle that you solve via stealth or combat, but a random encounter will either crush you or make everything take way longer than it has to. If your goal is to grind for experience, then a monster that you see is an objective you can head towards, but you normally don't get any feedback about when an encounter will happen. It may take you just as long to walk to a monster as it would for a random encounter to trigger, but one of these is goal directed while the other involves walking around in circles and waiting.
your wife's disgruntled "I'M JUST GIVING COMPLIMENTS TO A FROG" made me laugh way too hard.
The fact that so many people on twitter reccomended she started with Undertale and the fact that she didnt like it is so satisfying man
Even while an undertale fan, agreed. The charm mainly is from the subversive stuff. (And for me characters. But you only get there when past the gameplay)
I knew I wasn't the only one
To be honest undertale isn't that good I liked the story but the only thing holding the game up was like 1 character otherwise it was a boring game. I just got through it to see the ending and didn't enjoy it
@@dough7726 yeah it's more about the story rather than gameplay and there's multiple story's which is why you can go
Pacifist Route to save everyone
,
Neutral Route to kill some and save some,
*Genocide Route killing everybody.*
@@VexKingUA-cam a game should have both good story and gameplay, not having this set target ending which is basically a blueprint
I’m surprised you didn’t talk about how she felt about the story’s of the RPGs she played. To me, the Story is the part that gives combat meaning when theres a goal in mind or a plot you want to get to. Without the story, you’re essentially just fighting random enemies to fight random enemies. FF7R for example has amazing combat, but to ignore the story is kinda deliberate since its not open world, its a linear story based game
That makes sense, but I would argue that his point (her question) about the "why" of it all broaches this point somewhat. A well-constructed narrative is an awesome thing, but the appeal of the subject-matter is obviously very subjective. This was plainly obvious when watching his wife talk about how she found Disco Elysium "boring" :)
Generally I'm with you, story is very important. But it's arguably one of the hardest things to find an objective formula for which is why I tend to be more interested in whether or not a game has a "fun" gameplay loop ^^
@@Micras08 like if it was any other type of game, I would agree, but traditional RPG’s are all about the story. Thats kinda the point of them, a Roll Playing Game, you’re supposed to be a different character in that world, and these games are essentially the most story heavy games in all of gaming. Zelda, by definition, is a great RPG that arguably is more about the combat/journey then the story in most games, but traditional RPGs like the Final Fantasies are literally all about the story and the combat is the seasoning
@@zachtemoro2116 I see your point but I don't agree entirely. RPGs, to me, is more about interesting locations AND characters. From those two things and interesting story can emerge by itself :)
Personally I find that the FF games are kinda meh, the stories (to me) are very "standard" (for lack of better words) and the characters seem to be shallow archetypes most often. But to each their own, there's no wrong way of enjoying things :)
(EDIT: Oh but I forgot the important bit xD Despite my general dislike for FF games I've tried I can certainly still appreciate why they are critically acclaimed, they have a very solid gameplay loop that offers itself well to the stories and characters that are portrayed :))
I only mention this to undercut my point about subject-matter of a story/character being a very subjective hit or miss thing often times, which to me seems to be an almost universal truth regardless of genre.
My impression was that she doesn't find narrative to be a motivating factor. Characters moreso but still didn't seem enough to hold interest.
She probably didn't play enough of each title for her to grasp what the story was about. Or maybe she was getting too annoyed with the random encounters to focus on that.
As a grown woman still discovering the world of games, I thank you for this whole series and your wife for articulating to the masses my own frustrations. I'm playing Outer Worlds right now and I suuuuck at trying to shoot and move. What a learning curve for us noobs.
I found puzzle games like Portal to be an excellent starting point for people learning first person controls. Some parts require response time, but in general there's no rush from things like enemies shooting at you. I hope this helps and welcome to the crazy world of video games! There's a lot to explore.
@@spartansareneverkia6096 Speaking for myself, I managed to get through Portal using tricks like figuring out where I needed to aim before I flung myself into space, or treating the apex of a vertical jump as a stable point where I had a second to get my bearings again. I wouldn't say it helped me get better at other games, though.
FPSs and combat games aren't really my thing in general - I just always die before figuring out where to shoot back. Conversely, I love stealth games, and I think a big part of it is because the gameplay loop goes: find a hiding place - watch the environment - make a plan - sudden adrenaline-powered action that succeeds or fails based mainly on how observant you were - find a new hiding place.
I managed to convince my sister to play games by recommending the sims and sim city.
@@noatrope yesss, this is always my problem in FPS games as well, i watch other people play and i’m always like “how the hell do they know where they’re getting shot from” it’s so difficult for me to figure that out before i get killed first😩😂
It should help a ton if you play some basic aiming mechanic games: "Aim Lab" is free on Steam and can quickly polish up your point and click abilities.
"I didn't sign up to read a book."
*Disco Elysium quietly slinks away*
"I didn't sign up to read a book"
Oh-ho, several books with DnD it is!
Morrowind with actual Wikipedia articles: lmao
Disco Elysium: Final Cut appears: "How about listening to an audio book?"
*Planescape Torment walks in, walks back out*
I'm pretty sure the people who suggested undertale did more as a meme rather than as a serious question, the best starting point to me are RPGs without random encounters or controlable encounters, such as EarthBound, Paper Mario, and any Pokemon, that way she can see and avoid enemies while also having an strategy. Nintendo is quite good at making enjoyable games for less experienced players (most of the time), heck, even Golden Sun is a good starting point.
Maybe some did it as a meme, but a lot posted sincere reasons as to why they thought it would be a good starting spot.
@@razbuten I can see why it would be picked - due to being low-key etc. But yeah - it's very meta, and it doesn't surprise me that, being unaware of the meta, it would just be confusing. I get this a bit with my wife and some pop culture stuff because she didn't grow up in the US, so she doesn't know some of the assumed touchstones of shows/movies being meta.
@@razbuten Let me get this straight: You comment something that is unrelated to the fact that I have two DANGEROUSLY DASHING girlfriends? Considering that I am the unprettiest UA-camr ever, having two hot girlfriends is really incredible. Yet you did not mention that at all. I am quite disappointed, dear raz
@@razbuten I think for future attempts at videos like this, you should pretty much ignore twitter polls and just give her a reasonable route of accessibility to progressively harder games as determined by you, notes that go "she's new to the genre so doesn't understand anything" is just not entertaining
@@AxxLAfriku how have you not been banned from this site yet?
You should do “it takes two” as a gamer and non-gamer starting a game at the same time playing together with different skill levels it would probably give a different response.
Agreed. Or any of the other myriad games that require cooperative problem solving.
Funny enough, I did that with my friend. I'm a non gamer but had experience with escape rooms. The experience was lacking really because I just told them what I found as they did everything. The only struggle was getting the projector to work ( why do I have to press two buttons?! ) And the controls to interact sometimes. The only real reason I didn't have trouble moving and looking was they had me play a few other games before on controller
There are a lot of interesting co op games.
The most interesting I can think of is unraveled 2, lovers in a dangerous space time, and Chariot.
I second this! I (a non gamer) played it with my boyfriend (gamer) and the difference in skill level was really interesting. A lot of the time I could point out the mechanics or general "I think this needs to be done" but I sucked at remembering the controls and having to do multiple things at once. He was the complete opposite, and it made for a v entertaining first multiplayer game
My "kinda gamer" dad and I played that game (laughed a bit at the thought we were playing as a couple in the game) and it was superrr fun as it was my first time playing in a PS4
My comment goes out to "Lady" I would like to thank you for giving your time and patience for these experiments. Rpg games (for me anyways) are sort of like a good book. Some start off slow but if you keep reading for 2 or 3 chapters you eventually will be engulfed in the story and want to come back and fight through all the redonculous random encounters to find out how the story ends.
🤢🤮
Homie she didnt sign up to read books
Wow, people replying to you apparently hate what you've said, even though it's a totally valid thing to say. Reading can be difficult to get into, but the right story can captivate anyone
@@seanmadson8524 Yeah if the story is good i will read everything. If the story is boring I’m just skip skip skip.
The thing is that a good rpg is not just a good story. but I seem to be the only one who appreciates rpgs for having interesting gameplay?
The ones that do have good gameplay at least.
“How is this fun? I’m just complimenting a frog” lmaooo she’s great
Hahahaha she's not wrong!! 🐸
Man she's weird. What's not fun about complimenting a frog?
Her partner introduced her to gaming in the worst way possible, by sitting her down in front of difficult action games and telling her to play with zero assistance. Her entire view of what gaming is has been deeply skewed from the start.
I like this series so much not because of how Razbuten's wife's opinion on games has changed over the months and years, but because of how much Razbuten has learned about how to communicate gaming to non-gamers.
@@Porky7805 totally, I don’t expect her to enjoy games like this since it’s not a very fun way to get introduced to them. She’s an absolute trooper to go through with this so mad props to her. I love this series because it really highlights how a lot of game logic is somewhat illogical and confusing to people who don’t play a lot of games, you sorta take for granted that you’ve basically learnt an entire language through your experience that new players simply don’t have. It’s interesting to see how people without that background tackle the games and their thought process in solving puzzles.
Ahh.... She has become a true gamer lol.
Fun fact: My native tongue is french, and in french "turn-based" is "tour-de-role". But "role" can also mean the same thing as it does in english, as in "to play the role of someone." Therefore, to me "Role playing game" meant for a long time "turn based combat games". Language is fun.
@Loan Sauvagnat J'ai grandi au Québec, et on dit pas "tour-par-tour" ici... c'est bel et bien à "tour de role". Il y a plus qu'une sorte de français tu sais!
Surtout que tout par tour et tour de role signifie presque la même chose, sous entendu "on fait des actions l'une après l'autre"
Et en plus tour de role est utilisé en français de france, "se présenter a tour de role" quand on est plusieurs par ex
Turn based combat games sounds like a better definition than role playing games, honestly.
Definitely a more descriptive title for what are refered to as "classical RPGs" or JRPG, such as old school FF and Dragon's Quest. But since the 360 era its gotten way blurrier. Also what we call "western RPGs" have very little in common with "jRPGs" beyond explicit stat systems, so its kind of a clusterfuck that we give them such similar names...
Bah non ce que tu dit là c est que les echec ssont plus un jeu de role que skyrim
Even as a "gamer" I still prefer being able to see a enemy health bar
Sometimes I do if its a rpg
I'd say that unless and until graphics engines get _so_ good that the games can actually show the damage (and not just by adding blood or whatever) - in a way that the player can actually see at a glance -, health bars are an absolute must.
@@mcwolf1096 quake 2 does that
I don't. Part of the excitement is fingering out if what I'm doing is good or not.
I *never* would have gotten into monster hunter if they showed the monsters health while fighting. It kills immersion and desire to try again with different builds.
A man of culture. I want all the information.
I think Paper Mario is the perfect introduction to RPGs, specially TTYD, having the small QTEs makes the fights feel a lot more fun while still being menu based, with no random encounters and great companions
Yes! I came here to say Mario RPG would be the place to start for similar reasons.
I still can't believe that many people recommended Undertale as a first rpg to a non gamer. The sole reason we liked it was because we were gamers, so I can't even fathom as to why anyone would think that Undertale's charm would work on a non gamer. Regardless, I really liked that Razbuten went with it because it was interesting to see how his wife reacted to the game
Yeah, it's like suggesting Doki Doki Literature Club to someone who's never played a dating sim.
Its like introducing a person who has never watched superhero shows to watch My Hero Academia
I mean.... I've never played a dating sim (maybe watched a couple episodes on one LP), but I've considered playing DDLC, heck I was just about to download it soon. I think as long as you have some general awareness of a genre, you can see a subversive take on it. My friend was recommending I play it when it first came out. He told me "it's a psychological horror game pretending to be a dating sim" and my immediate response was "thanks, neither of those are genres I like." ........ but I've kind of gotten curious, and as someone who generally likes story and characters I've wanted to get into some visual novels in general.
......also I really don't see why you can't enjoy MHA without seeing other shows, I think it just kinda stands on its own doesn't it?
I’ve played undertale and up until this video I didn’t know it was making fun of rpg tropes
Just remember that ANY poll is automatically assumed to be a popularity poll no matter what you tell them it's for. All people saw was "pick a game from this list" and they picked Undertale without considering the context of the poll. Many people likely thought that they had to pick one that would be played, and therefore the others wouldn't get played. That's why polls suck.
I'm a student in sociology, mainly focusing on video games and roleplaying games. And I must say that your work is a gold mine for me. Thank you for doing it. It is a great help in order to understand a ton of things about how video games are learned and build and how they need to be understood to be interacted with.
I wish I could tell you how much it is important and how much it is helping with more than this simple message.
That's so cool - keep it up!
People can actually study this? That's so cool :O sounds like my two favorite worlds together
What kind of questions do you ask with regards to video games/roleplaying games in sociology?
What the hell people study this? This is amazing! Good luck with what youre doing
It is well produced, but has sample size of 1
“I didn’t sign up to read a book” *disco elysium laughs in the background
Scarlett nexus laughs in the background
I think Disco Elysium is up there with Planescape: Torment with a word count of about a million. Thats almost twice as much as War and Peace.
Disco Elysium has more words of dialogue in its script than the Bible.
These games are the first games that come to mind when I hear "RPG", so signing up to play an RPG is very much signing up to read an RPG
Tip: (maybe/maybe no) I think one of the problems when choosing a game for non gamers is that gamers are used to everything a "normal" game has to offer so for them "unique" or "different" games are considered great but for someone who is unfamiliar with games the most "bland/standard" games that are the most similar to our world would be the best and easiest to get into and to learn from.
Good example is undertale, whilst it is a great "unique" game, for someone who doesnt play games it doesnt make any sense at all because they are unfamiliar with the "norm".
I agree, recommending Undertale to someone not familiar with video games is such a head in the clouds, pretentious take. It's like deciding to recommend someone trying to get into films 2001: a space Odyssey
"Why" are you "using" so "many" double quation "marks"?
I've been thinking about this since the series started. It seems like so many 'unique' games are either fusions of basic games, or subversions of them. They assume you're familiar, not just with the tropes, but the fundamental skillset. In order to build those fundamental skills, I think I'd recommend:
A basic platformer like Mario to train movement
A basic JRPG like Pokemon or Final Fantasy to train stat management
A first-person puzzle game like Portal or Stanley Parable to train first person camera control/movement without worrying as much about bullets
The first two might have to start in 2D, because 3D tends to come with the added complexity of controlling a camera. This can induce a weird sense of vertigo in people who haven't gotten their 'sea legs' for games yet.
She's already figured out how to "first try" things. She's a Real Gamer™ already.
The Trademark earned my like 😂
XD
Haha, the tm
haha small letter tm so fucking funny /wrists
"You're not running through this dungeon to NOT push buttons. Push all the buttons."
Lady: "I want to be an archer. With a pet bear."
Raz: "Named?"
Me: "I swear to God, if she says 'Trinket'"
Ah, a man of culture I see
Ah, yes.
Edit: also ale.
Or Claudia in Romancing SaGa
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 That would work, too. But Trinket felt more on point since they're about to play D&D
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume The Lady is not familiar with Critical Role.
Undertale is an interesting case, because as you said, it definitely requires you to have played at least one RPG to really "get" most of the jokes and mechanics. it subverts your typical expectations in many ways. The punchline for LV, the fact you DON'T need to massacre random animals, and as you said, she later wanted to reset to a save point in some games to try and get a better outcome, and that's another one of Undertales mechanics, that it recognizes when you do that, and kinda calls you out. Definitely not a great first RPG, though a fantastic game.
yeah its really only as beautiful and as genius as it is as it was made by a Man steeped in the Culture of RPG games for players that are also Steeped in the Culture of RPG games. to an newcomer to the hobby its nothing but weird and they wont have the frame of reference to understand why that weirdness is what makes it so awsome.
Hi Razbuten, I hope you read this as I've explored this topic a bit too. During the pandemic, I've gotten my mom into gaming (she's in her 60s). Despite attempting to do so before with little interest from her, she is definitely a gamer now, choosing to play even on her own in her free time. A HUGE barrier for her, that finally clicked is controls. I noticed the woman you live with struggling to aim her gun in Outer Worlds, and it looks like she's using a controller. For a long time we tried to get my mom into gaming using a controller on a console thinking: less buttons = easier to learn (versus PC gaming).
She has a Steam account now, and while chatting/gaming online remaining distant during COVID-19 played a part in her finally enjoying gaming for the first time like this, the choice to have her try PC gaming was a big part of it. I always thought the controls on PC games would be more alienating to non-gamers, but using a computer frequently at her desk job, she was innately familiar with fine mouse movements, and where each button was (e.g. she'd be baffled and frustrated not knowing what R1 was in a tutorial section, but would immediately know what left click is, or space bar, compared to the A button, etc.)
Has the woman you live with had similar experiences, or have you compared how she reacts to playing a new game on console versus PC back to back? I think it could be fascinating!
As a sidenote, my mom's favourite games she's done so far are generally party style games, and a clear goal or points system to give her direction is vital. She would hate something more open ended like Elder Scrolls or Minecraft. Currently her favourites are Overcooked 2, Golf With Your Friends, (oddly) Don't Starve Together, Among Us, and (to a lesser extent) Borderlands.
That’s very nice .
I have a similar experience. I once watched my cousins play a shooting game on a controller and when I tried it myself I was just wtf-ing on what to press. Meanwhile I have an easier time with pc games since I had more muscle memory on where the letters are... though shooting games still arent my thing and would prefer rpgs and stuff, but thats just my preference lol
Overcooked is an absolute winner with non gamers
A lot of the draw of RPGs for me is the feeling of going on a long adventure. I think that without feeling like you're about to embark on a long journey, you could be a lot less engaged at the beginning of an RPG.
True. You don't start an RPG for the first hour of the game. You go in excited for the choices you're going to make along the way and to see the result of your actions. Going through as many RPGs as possible is not the way to have fun playing them. It's like judging the book by it's first page.
@@kaksspl True. The first "chapter" of a video game can be like, 1-2 hours of sleepy farming village life, before the bad guy finally comes to burn it down.
Very few RPGs start in medias res and get right to the action.
For me an RPG was more akin to reading an engrossing book rather than playing a super stimulating video game. I get my excitement from the plot, the characters, and the world.
that's how i've always wanted to describe the feeling i've had for so long. thank you.
Same. RPGs were always about relaxing for me, even when the story had really heavy elements. Turn based titles simply allow me to "take my time", too, and I just enjoy puzzles and strategy. I've never been a huge fan of feeling adrenaline in my veins in a general sense. It makes me feel tired/stressed irl, my body doesn't handle it well. So I'm not very much a fan of anything that I'm not allowed to pause. ^_^' There are exceptions of course, some really good games that I decided to get out of my comfort zone for, just because they were THAT good (like, say, Hollow Knight or Hades).
The mood I am in whenever I go to play an rpg is the same I am when I feel like watching a good movie/series, or read a book. It's less about challenging myself and more about immersing myself into the world and meeting new characters, with the little caveat that, generally speaking, the player's input matters here, be it to steer the plot towards a certain ending or in something as small setting the tone for a conversation with someone. We are not "just watching/reading" passively. If you are not the kind of person that is into interacting with the plot itself and figure out how do *you* feel about it as if you were a part of it all, then I suppose it would be pretty boring. As for me, I'm usually bored by the inexistence of plot, and repetitive multiplayer games, so there. **Shrugs**
Her: "There's too much information in this game. I didn't sign up to read a book."
Me: "I guess that throws Planescape: Torment out the window."
Seriously, the story is the best part of RPGs.
This series is so real. The woman I live with got animal crossing new horizon, and for WEEKS she didn't know she could run. Or sell multiple items at once. Or how to turn off the switch
Did she also not know/forget how to breathe?
My mother has had her switch for over a year and she STILL doesn't turn it off. I've given up on that regard
lol my parents got their switch over a year ago and play animal crossing every day and still can't turn off their switch, it's perpetually in sleep mode
I think it's fair! He covered that on the first video of the series. There's a lot of things AC doesn't teach you because it's assumed people know.
His series does a good job showing us how much knowledge us gamers take for granted.
To be fair, they don't exactly tell you how to properly turn the switch off. Only how to put it in sleep mode.
While it's in hindsight, I feel like Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door likely would have been an RPG she'd have liked. With Goombella out all the time she'd have access to enemy HP totals and information on every enemy and the action commands keep battles from just being menus. I'd suggest the original, but since she didn't get far into any of the games she might not have actually gotten to the part of the game that gives the action commands in the first place.
surprisingly when I made my wife play TTYD she didn't start tattling enemies until i explained and showed her the importance. I wouldn't be surprised to see a similarity. if it doesn't so damage it's not immediately useful
"When does it get fun?" Always hurts to hear
Yeah. And, as for reassuring yourself, you feel somewhat obliged to answer: "Haha... yeah, that part is not that fun, but it gets better later..." *internally cry*
@@Kramoule
Razbuten's way of forcing his partner's first experience with gaming to happen in a vacuum is totally different from how real people actually get into gaming. There are very few games I've ever gone into mostly blind, and I've *never* gone into a whole genre blind.
@@Kramoule Yeah, it always stings a bit when a non gamer loved one or friend says something like this to me when and kind of deflates my excitement to try and share something I really love with them. Undertale was a misstep for her first rpg though. I would have gone with FFX, Ys Lacrimosa of Dana or Dragon Quest XI and for Western rpgs, Dragon Age Origins or Mass Effect
@@Porky7805 Most of the streamers I watch routinely play games they have no concept of beforehand- specifically so they have no prior idea of what’s to come, and it’s more of a surprise. They’ll usually know the genre, but not always, and it’s something I’ve found myself doing now too. If someone recommends a game they think, I’ll give it a go. Sometimes it’s great, other times not, but the surprise element makes it all the more enjoyable
"When does it get fun"
That's a lotta damage
Omni-Man: "That's the Neat Part, It never happens"
Undertake is all about meta gaming. Why people would recommend that to a non-gamer is beyond me.
Yeah it was a really bad choice. The fanboys who recommended it did her and their favorite game a disservice.
undertale fans and being aggressively obnoxious name a more iconic duo
Because if you're enough of a brainlet to like undertale, you're enough of a brainlet to not understand what it's doing
It would be like recommending a slow narrative game to an ADHD speed demon
@@maskettaman1488 i understand what it is doing and i also like the game, not only because the comedy is good, but i also like the mix of bullet hell with rpgs and having to think how to defeat the monsters instead of just increasing numbers, like i think the strongest item in the game simply increases the amount of invulnerability frames after taking damage, know why he made her play undertale, but i have no idea why anyone would suggest that
i’ve often said about RPGs that they’re a good supplement to another gameplay style, or need a better hook than just “being an RPG” (like Undertale’s bullet hell gameplay or catching monsters in Pokémon), but this video helped me realize it’s a lot more complicated than that. there are a bunch of subconscious things that make my enjoyment of RPGs more varied
I love that she named Cloud and Barret "LADY" and "MAN"
Lady: “So, when does it get fun?”
Undertale fans: 💔
Me thinking about the fandom: “But it refused”
This was me the entire time my friends forced me to play thru undertale. Still one of the least favorable/memorable game experiences I've had
@@Erick_Cuevas I quit after an hour. I think undertale is best experienced with multiple people around, so you can all make jokes and enjoy the jokes the game has. I tried my best to be a kind character and spare everything, but, much like in real life, being kind doesn’t get you much, and since I was alone without anyone to playfully argue my decision to be a pacifist, I felt bored and quit.
@@MightyAverage I get that. I was playing it with a friend watching me the whole time (play at his place). He was the "witness" for our friend group. He did his best to make the game feel lively and joked here n there - a fruitless effort, ultimately. But I'm glad he was there cuz I would've 100% dropped it after an hour. If I even got to an hour haha
undertale relies heavily on a very specific type of humor that a lot of people don't enjoy, there's literally no fun to be had if you don't like the jokes
As someone who recently managed to convert his wife into a gamer. I have to say that old school point and clicks have been a huge hit, Sam and Max, Grim Fandango, and Day of the Tentacle have been huge hits, and have gotten her more interested in RPG's as an interactive story.
As a non-gamer whose husband has been gradually encouraging me to play instead of just happily watching him game, my top three would be Katamari Damacy (hilarious, catchy music, AND easy to master makes it my #1), Diablo III, and Ratchet and Clank. D3 was great for familiarizing myself with the controller since camera angles are not a factor at all. Ratchet and Clank, well, I never finished it and still would rather watch my husband play, but it was fun and I'll probably go back to finish it someday.
Yeah, point and click was one of my first thoughts for a type to include among the selection
One of my first when I was little was the might and magic series, I often played it with one of my parents. It's simple to learn and play but the difficulty can jump drastically since there is nothing to stop you accidentally travelling ti an area full of enemies like 50 levels above ypu and getting wrecked XD dragon jumpscares are best jumpscares haha
When I started gaming, I also had the problem of shooting and moving, which made me like Pokémon as a kid and slowly switch to higher skill games
I was reminded by the comment on Lady's struggle to move the camera in games, I had huge struggles with it as well. Then a gamer friend told me about inverted controls and I realised I wasn't bad at games. Game settings are a huge thing for a non-gamer to learn about, even on a console.
This!
says the person who plays games with esdf.
@@coriandercastor9453 how
@@unacajitadecarton It's what happens when you learn touch typing and have a certain mind.
+
“Sorry, Persona 5 fans, it’s nothing personal.”
No, I get it. It takes so long to get to the first palace.
Replays are the very thing I dread because of the long intro
I love the games don’t get me wrong but man...ng+ is hard to start for me
@@makotoyuki345 honestly it’s okay playing the game 2 or 3 times. But honestly once you’ve known the story you’ve basically played the whole game
@@yulhenderson2267 no I’m a pseudo completionist. I always try to see at the least all the extra content I missed on the previous playthrough since I just really like extra stuff beyond the story
@@makotoyuki345 r u the real makoto yuki???
the best mc after Tatsuya?????
@@shishlik._.2881 shhh
Famous Last Words: "I don't even need to heal"
The final step in becoming a gamer, need to change the series name lmao
@@unamed1142 Naw, the final step is hoarding your items forever after because you're afriad of being unable to heal, cure status ailments, etc. 😂
4:54 "[Undertale] turned out to not be an ideal starting point." It's almost like Twitter users are morons!
"what visual novels are like for someone who doesn't play games" lol
making her play undertale first is like if for visual novels doki doki literature club was the first
Imagine doki doki literature club lmao
@@gameboygreat5626 oh no
From this video, and from her reaction to Undertale, the chances of her getting engaged in visual novels is hard, since aside from some small mechanics, it’s just reading a lot, and more about Sorry rather than gameplay, it doesn’t stimulate you nearly as much as a shooting game
@@poporipopes4876 or "plot", depending on the type of visual novel.
I love this series. It's extremely insightful for understanding the perspective of someone who doesn't play video games like I do. It helps me understand their struggle instead of judging for not knowing how stuff works.
I'm terrible at video games, but have been playing them before I could read. So it irks me when someone puts on an air of authority, but they know nothing and are playing worse than I do.
@@coriandercastor9453 I get you. What I said is because I only play hyper competitive games. Good luck have fun!!
@@BusinessWolf1 I think I understand. The less one tilts the better, right?
@@coriandercastor9453 what I meant is I tilt easy, and videos like this help me understand the bad players
I'm shocked that you didn't include a Paper Mario game or M&L game. Simple low damage numbers, easy to plan strategies, no random encounters, optional enemy HP bars, I could go on. The perfect introductory RPG.
Thinking about it, undertale would be good to play AFTER a game like that or a few games like that, i feel like undertale should’ve been the last game
@@Bee8467 That makes sense. Undertale's main hook is subverting gamers' expectations of what an RPG is required to have (violence, etc). It might fall flat if the player in question doesn't have prior experiences.
@@AfterglowAmpharos yeah
agree. i’m noticing through these videos he picks games that are what he likes most, which would be fine if the games he picked weren’t some of the hardest or ‘deepest’ ones out there.
I made my wife play through ttys and superstar saga and she loved them she cosplayed dooplis
In hindsight, you should have added EarthBound as one of the RPGs she should play. For its time its one of the only RPGs with enemies on screen. The setting of the game is something she'd be familiar with as well, that being the American suburbs, something very out of the ordinary for RPGs at the time. With it one of my favorite games of all time, I was disappointed you didnt have it in your list as I think its a unique RPG that is beginner friendly and has aspects that shed be familiar with
The sort of "sad/desperate please like this" voice Raz has is the most relatable thing in the world.
I'm also constantly trying to convince my girlfriend that games are awesome and constantly failing
honestly we should just nix the phrase "role playing game" and come up with a new one
I propose "Character-Having-Upgrading-Numbers-Getting-Uber-Strong"s
CHUNGUS
Omg
@@PLSHSL you should delete this comment so we can see the hilarity that ensues when someone doesn't get the joke 🤣
yes
"Grindfest"
Cant wait for video "What 4X And Grand Strategies Are Like For Someone Who Doesn't Play Games". That will be hard one.
The FF7 music in the beginning sent me back to middle school for a moment.
“When does this get fun?”
Ouch my soul
As someone whose gaming started with Pokemon and other games that don't rely on reflexes or timing, the hybrid real-time + turn-based system of Final Fantasy XV and VII Remake is a genius system. It appeals to people who are used to turn-based RPGs but want to get into action RPGs, which is honestly a hard thing to bridge.
I didn't get a Wii until I was about 12 or 13 (basically at the ass end of the Wii's life cycle) and before then I had played games pretty much solely on my DS. I remember how awkward it was for me at first to get used to moving in a 3D space with the analog stick, and flipping the camera around. I fell off so many thing in twilight princess....
I've just always loved that style of rpg. I like being able to slow things down if I have to while still being able to enjoy the game's story. Some of my favorites are Star Wars: KOTOR and Neverwinter Nights 2.
@@Hildibrah That's basically me when I started playing Breath of the Wild after mostly playing Pokemon games.
Consider checking out Transistor if you like this kind of Hybrid stuff. :)
@@fetterkeks2796 oh god you just reminded me, I've had Transistor in my Steam library for literal years 😂 good to know though!
As a gamer myself, I am glad when enemy health bars are visible. I love that shit. And honestly, RPGs are indeed only called that because of the numbers and such relating to Dungeon and Dragons.
As a monster hunter fan, I am on the side of not showing enemy HP. Seeing their bodies get more damaged, them running away and being out of breath is much more immersive.
@@FireStormUnleashed
I can see your point, I just have a different preference.
@@lizardguyNA that's fair, I hope with most of these discussions that neither side "wins" and both solutions can coexist :)
Since you've had her on action RPGs now, it would be interesting to see your wife go through at least the first Kingdom Hearts since Disney characters and worlds are something most people are familiar with if not attached to.
To see how well external grounding and familiarity may affect her enjoyment.
But those also have super long cutscenes and slow starts.
I feel like KH 2 would be better for a first game. The first KH game is extremely clunky
@@Phoenix_Dempsey as a dedicated kh fan, I'd say that 2 is the worst game to start with. I'm counting even days ans Recom in that too, kh2 start REQUIRES you understand and enjoy the first game's story and gameplay to get out of twilight town, and it throws a lot at you all at once under the pretense that you already know and enjoyed kh1/com the best game to start on is kh1 cause the story telling is in a shoenen anime format and it's not really clunky, there's a reason it's argued to be the best in the series even to this day, it has flaws such as the platforming being atrocious but aside from that kh1 is the best place to start unless you are into rhythm games then I'd say MoM is the best starting place since it helps with the story, KH2 may be arguably the best game in the series (depends on if you want flashy, details, or graphics) but it isn't good for starting. Especially since it's likely the most diffuclt game (though days is the hardest to playthrough)
Yeah I actually disagree. I went into KH before I was very familiar with Final Fantasy or JRPGs and it was rough. If you're not into the high melodrama of the storyline, it's like being forced to watch cringe before you're allowed to play the fun parts. Like the game itself is gatekeeping you for being a filthy casual, LOL. (Yeah I'm looking at you GUMMI SHIPS.) I definitely understand why people love it, but KH fandom is an acquired taste and has a pretty high barrier to entry. Which was kind of a wild decision because, as you pointed out, the franchises involved are so accessible and yet the games themselves are... very much not that, at least from a story standpoint. So maybe not as beginner friendly as one might imagine, but those are the same qualities that make it unique and special to so many people.
I just started playing through the KH series, and KH1 was super fun for me, as someone who doesn't play pretty much any action-y games. Even my sister, who finds Pokemon too confusing and literally only plays Animal Crossing (and also never had an anime phase), started playing it and is having a lot of fun with it. The Disney hook into the story, combined with mash X to win gameplay (with magic as something extra you can throw in once you're comfortable/bored) makes it super newb friendly.
KH2 has been a big step up in difficulty for me, there's just so much more going on. I have to hit triangle now?? Am I going to have to learn how to block??? It's definitely not great for a non-gamer
Because KH3 starts in a Disney/Hercules-themed area I think it would make the easiest introduction to the series' mechanics, even ignoring the QoL features and more modern graphics and controls. The overarching story would make no sense, but at least it launches players into the gameplay quickly and allows them to play as the Sora they'd be playing for the rest of the game right away.
Huge props to your wife for continuing to try despite relatively unhappy outcomes. Love these videos Razbuten. Keep up the good work and stay safe out there :)
I've been playing games since I was a kid, but the idea of an mmorpg is still intimidating. Mostly, I don't like committing to a long term farming system.
Same. Thats ehy I couldn't get into Star Wars The Old Republic. That and the bad storytelling. The only exception to MMOs Ive made is Warframe.
Do you like story more? I heard that ff14 is one of the best mmorpg that focuses on story out there…. You just have to sit through 40 hours for it to get good BUT HEY it’s free till lvl 60 so you could try that?
I see what you mean from an outside perspective but i feel like depending on the game the grind is just as fun and engaging as the rest of the game. For example, when i was nearing max level in WoW classic i did the longest dungeon in the game about a dozen times to get a piece of gear from the final boss, but i enjoyed every run even when i didn't get it because i got to keep meeting and interacting with new people every time and teach the ones i met in my later runs things about the dungeon thqt i had been taught in my first few
@@AndrewIHanna Yeah, back when I used to play Super Mechs (and it was actually a good game) I used to live the grind 😂
I would build different strategies based on whatever equipment I could get, and the grind's payoff was the visible difference in the strategies available to me.
This is one of the reasons my friends have recently gotten into playing Guild Wars 2. You can actually avoid the long term farming and be completely fine. the narrative of the game runs throughout every release and the exploration of the world has been really fun for them.
First RPG I ever played was FFX, and I had no idea how much I was spoiling myself
FFX was the first Final Fantasy game I finished, and yes, I just about ruined myself. Now, I just prefer shooting baddies in the face.
Same, with FFX-2 for me :
mine too! and Dirge of Cerberus XD (i liked both)
hahaha... yep. i know a friend who's the exact same too. I made him play other FFs before that. He didn't like any of them at all.
Pretty much was anti-every-game that was not as convenient as FFX ever.
@@noiJadisCailleach what makes it so convenient compared to the others?
I CANNOT WAIT for the D&D vid! A large portion of my experience with the game has been teaching new players to do things and running first games so seeing someone else’s perspective on that process will be awesome!
Learning P&P RPGs has an even weirder learning curve than PC RPGs, partially because you have to know the rules since you're the one doing the math not the computer, and partially because the sheer freedom is crippling until you get used to it and remember that you're an actor playing a character, meaning that you have to slip into the skin of a fiction character of your own making and simulate their emotional and thought processes. I don't think much good or educational will come from a single brief campaign with only 1 player, though I would prefer to be wrong.
@@Khorothis I didn't assume that Raz was going to be doing 1 player dnd. Duo games can be excellent though, and I cant imagine they would be a bad introduction to the genre since the DM can focus entirely on the players wants and needs, take combat really slow and easy or simply avoid it to suit their taste, and easily run through any fiddly rules stuff as it comes without the weight of the other players waiting around the table.
For me it's the characters and stories that make me love games. I love the struggle and the journey. Getting to imagine a world or life that I would never really be able to see. You can see so many different worlds and experience so many different characters and encounter many different problems to be solved. For me that's exciting and engaging.
Wife: “ I didn’t sign up to read a book” lmao I died
I sighed, knowing she was not at all alone in that attitude in 'newer people'. When a popular animated movie shows future humans as blobs of fat in automatic vehicles that provide them all they may need...they know what they're talking about. meaning that when the aliens come to destroy us, those of us still with a bit of wits will probably thank them.
@@hansolav5924 Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
@@hansolav5924 The attitude of newer people that don't want to read about useless things going on in a useless video game? If anyone's gonna end up a fat blob it's not gonna be her, it's gonna be the gamers.
@@hansolav5924 tf are you on crack?
So... she probably wouldn't like Planescape Torment then?
I feel as though the professional surveyors missed Paper Mario as a terrific starting RPG title......
This series can be as educational to gamers as it is to his wife, I think. The fact that so many people suggested Undertale as a FIRST role playing game makes me think the average gamer really didn't understand what made Undertale interesting. It's literally an rpg for people burned out on rpgs. I feel like a big part of gaming's inaccessibility is the difficulty gamers have with talking about games and this series does a great job of highlighting that.
Don't forget the M&L games and SMRPG!
@@ngwoo they probably didn’t, to be honest. The gaming community is really susceptible to group think and mob mentality. With all the initial buzz around Undertale, I have no doubt a large group of people played it after they had already decided it was brilliant, thus failing to experience it critically
"Do. I. Keep. Doing this. The. WHOLE. Time?" 😂
I would quit this after 5 minutes xD
She seems like the kind of person who needs explosions (or rather the female equivalent: romance) for her to be entertained.
"What? Reading & thinking? HOW is this fun"
I would so tread on thin ice if i were in his shoes^^ ;)
@@michaelleue7594 I love Disco Elysium, but it definitely needs a specific mood and enough energy to concentrate on the reading. It's probably easier these days as more lines are voiced, but it used to be mostly just reading and as such, as an activity more similar to reading a book than playing a video game.
@@michaelleue7594 well, doesn't that last sentence apply to all Adventure games back in the day? "Pixel-hunting"
@@Blirre again, "more similar to reading a book than playing a videogame"...doesn't that apply to every CRPG?
I played PoE and that's exactly what i thought, but i mostly loved it.
I mean, AAA-Mainstream videogames are more like watching a movie than playing a game.
This makes me really curious as to how she would react to games like life is strange and telltale ones
Yeah like would she like the butterfly effect games?
“I didn’t sign up to read a book.”
Welcome to RPGs.
What Text Adventures are Like for Someone Who Doesn't Play Games
@@TheCyanSqueegee I would love to see her reaction. Visual novels also.
Shit, can we even escape that in videogames nowadays? Even fucken Doom Eternal has a shit-ton of reading for you to do if you wanna understand the lore of the game...
When I was still pretty new to games, that's exactly why I stopped playing Morrowind after an hour or two. I don't remember much of it, but I remember that almost EVERY. SINGLE. DIALOGUE. was a freaking wall of text and I was just so mentally exhausted after such a small amount of time. I plan to go back to it now that I've been playing games for a few years and am actually excited about that part, but when you're new, holy shit that was a lot.
Visual novel readers: “You get what you signed up for...”
Raz:"Its nothing personal"
Me:"And I took that personally"
The thing with RPGs is that many of them don't eventually get to a point where they're suddenly exciting and fun because the fun comes from what you put into the game. In any mainline Dragon Quest game, the individual fights can often be boiled down to repeatedly mashing the A button until you can move on, but the fun comes from the accumulative effect of all those battles; the growth in strength over time, the uncovering of further plot threads, the discovering of new secrets and treasures along the way. You may get a boss once in a while that takes some actual thought and strategy to defeat and those are definitely moments of actual tension and excitement when done well, but just having the actual tools and skills needed to defeat the boss in the first place reinforces the feeling that your hard work paid off over time, especially if you're under-leveled when you first encounter the boss and need to go back and do a bit of grinding.
Dragon Quest has auto battle options, because the fights aren't the main point most of the time.
The draconian quest feature on dq11 was a nice touch.
Without it on, the game seems incredibly easy. Good for those who like to play casual
However, with them on its challenge and fun for veterans and those who like strategizing. Can be a nightmare with a couple stacked together.
Really wish pokemon could add a difficulty feature like this:
Ex.
- No free pokemon centers
- Your super effective attacks do regular damage
- reduced/no experience from super weak opponents
- randomly disables one of your pokemon's moves for each available turn
@@FluffyBunniesOnFire It's called macro-management. Well, when it works.
Personally, if you were to revisit this whole RPG experiment at some point, I would make a few changes: first, in the turn based RPG department, change up a few of the games to ones that are more short form and attention grabbing, as well as have more charm. Chrono Trigger (play until the End of Time or until getting to the Future), Bug Fables (play until the start of Chapter 2 or the first Miniboss), Paper Mario & the Thousand Year Door (play til… idk), and Miitopia (cuz why not?). These families of games have far more unique combat styles, with Chrono trigger having simple characters that have several unique interaction with each other, while Paper Mario & Bug Fables have action commands to make it so that your wife still has the strategic aspect of choosing but also interactiveness to keep her engaged, and Miitopia… because it’s funny. Not only that, but except for Miitopia, none of these games have random encounters.
I would also take some time to maybe have her dive into some of the more story centric games. Fire Emblem: Three Houses & Xenoblade Chronicles (Definitive of course, not 2) have unique combat styles that may intrigue her, and their more story centric designs may pull her in. For Fire Emblem probably stop when you get to the monastery, and for Xenoblade get to the end of the attack on Colony 9 (I know that’s…. A long time, but it’s only at that point she’ll see where the story starts). You could probably pick a third option, but that would be far too time consuming.
Since the options in this experiment would have her spending far more time with every game, it would probably be best to keep the game library small. You’re also gonna want to stop with any one game if your wife wants to stop. RPG’s tend to require investment, so you have to wonder if the lady you live with is going to want to invest time into these games, which would be an interesting part to explore for these experiments.
Edit: Oh, I would also recommend maybe adding Earthbound and Deltarune to this list. Earthbound because it’s also one of those weird RPG’s with a ton of personality and all, plus you’re not playing as you you’re playing as these assorted characters, which the game makes clear from the start. Deltarune because Chapter 1 is a much more complete story, it’s not trying to be a subversive RPG, and because it’s a lot easier to enjoy the characters because you’re constantly interacting with them. That’s one thing I think you ended up missing with the games you gave: attachment to the characters. The Lady You Live with was playing games that require a lot of time to get attached, which is probably why she had the whole opinion “I came to play a game, not read a book”. Plus Deltarune’s combat is fun and not random encounter based.
exactly what I was thinking with deltarune, wouldve been perfect in place of undertale here
I would have highly recommended Mass Effect. You said she's had some experience with shooters, and it's a cover shooter so it's pretty forgiving. It's also very role-play heavy with the dialogue wheel and all of the skills and level systems.
Yeah kinda insane that they’re talking about RPGs w/o really emphasizing any BioWare game. They’re like THE rpg people
@@superded6092 Agreed, came here to say the same.
Agreed, although I would argue Dragon Age is known for attracting a lot of us women for a reason. I'd like to see what she thinks of DAO or DAI, but DAI might be too overwhelming since some people complain about the amount of sidequests.
@@NickaLah agreed someone not used to games might prefer DAO. DAI might be a bit confusing to get into if you're not used to rpg's. I started the Dragon Age series with Inquisition but I was already used to that type of games. I'm also a person that reads the lore a lot. Every time I got a codex entry I read it to understand more of the world.
True! First MassEffect, then maybe DragonAge would probably have endeered the whole genre much more to her
sounds like she would have enjoyed games with visible non-random encounters like the mana series, chrono trigger, lufia 2, and earthbound. Glad she enjoyed pokemon though.
Also - Costume Quest
You're the first person I've ever seen with same profile picture as me lol
Yes. I was legit disappointed that she didn't get to try titles from the SNES, which has some of the most traditional and beginner-friendly RPG titles, like Chrono Trigger and EarthBound. Man, I have a feeling she would really enjoy EarthBound, even though she didn't like Undertale.
@@danielbueno8474 ya, i myself am not really a fan of undertale despite liking weird games, was playing lisa at the time undertale was released, dread set in when i saw lisa in the beginning, cause that game.... was pretty dark.
I wonder if she would have liked Sword/Shield because of all the overworld pokemon…
22:40 The end be like the Anakin-Padmeme:
"Wait, wait...first time?"
"Yeah, you´re gonna delete the footage from the last time. This is the first time, right?"
"..."
"You´re gonna delete the footage from the last time. This is the first time, right?"
Probably the best implementation of random encounters I've seen was in Shadow Madness. It used the typical Final Fantasy system (no enemies populated the screen), but a sound effect played when one was about to start. The player could then press a button combination to crouch. If they reacted quick enough, they would avoid the battle entirely, giving them a good amount of control over when battles started without having to populate the screen with enemies.
"pokemon are only found in grass"
Cave and lake: are we a joke?
Well, they're still 'danger zones'.
zubat's encounter rate in caves absolutely qualifies as a sick joke
not the caves.. 😰
Judging from the footage, I don't think she even made it to the first cave.
Memories of Rock Tunnel....
Since she already has a pretty good idea of what she likes and dislikes in a game, it seems like a good time to make a list with these bullet points and choose a game together that would suit her. Maybe don't limit it to a specific genre though.
One of my favorite parts of the latest Nintendo Direct was them describing the Metroid gameplay without saying Metroidvania. I’m so used to it I just think of it as its own genre
My girlfriend wasn't a big gamer and she's much more interested in story than pushing buttons at the right time (the only time she has a good time with that sort of game is when it's co-op and I can jump in to help her). What I realized is that she really enjoyed games like Disco Elysium and In Other Waters where they feel more like interactive novels rather than "normal games". Especially if you treat it as a role playing and interactive story/novel/movie where you could have multiple endings depending on your choices and sometimes some luck. Try pitching Disco Elysium as a narrated and interactive novel rather than a game, maybe your wife will like it more. Admittingly, it's super trippy in the first 5 minutes of Disco Elysium with all the "Reptilian Brain" thingies and the almost nonsense responses, but hey, a lot of novels start kinda trippy as well (for example, Flowers for Algernon, Fahrenheit 451, etc.), and you truly get into the story after you've read a dozen pages or so. At least that's my experience with Disco Elysium. I might be biased enjoying classic tabletop RPGs and novels and storytelling in general, but do try to put Disco Elysium in the light of a creative way of storytelling, building a fictional world that you can explore in, rather than a "game you play to get your adrenaline pumping". Maybe your wife will enjoy it more and maybe even resonate with it like so many others.
Hi there, I know your comment's fairly old, but please tell her that she has absolutely fantastic taste in games. Interactive novels are some of my most favorite games to play and it makes me so happy to specifically hear about someone else loving In Other Waters! It's a pretty obscure little game that doesn't have a lot of appeal even to those who like visual novel games because you aren't playing from a character's direct perspective so much as you are the computer UI in the character's life support system...
p.s. If she hasn't already played Night in the Woods, she absolutely needs to. It sounds like she would love it.
"Some could say "...yes"." made me laugh a lot
I think health bars become more necessary when there are more potential outcomes for how much damage an attack can do. That immediate feedback is useful to strategize when there are multiple different strategies and ways to deal damage. For example, The Dark Souls 3 King of the Storm takes WAY more damage on its head, so if it didn't have a health bar, it might take many minutes for some players to get to the second half.
You can somewhat help this by having damage numbers but not health bars.
Idk, damage numbers are hard to see in the heat of battle
There are more alternatives to show which moves are more valid with enemies. Weak points can contrast from the rest of the body, hit animations may be dependant on the power of the hit, strike could cause a visual, particle effect, intensity of which could be scaled with damage. But I agree, if game offers good and bad choices of attack, it should be clearly telegraphed.
Ah, a case where ranks wouldn't work. (Uninjured/Wounded/Near Death/etc.)
*"[...] which, it turns out, is every game ever."*
Except Tetris.
funny you think that those blocks aren't on an adventure
@@razbuten It's not adventure, it's suffering. They are all going to die.
Then, there comes Tetris 99, and you're on an adventure to suffer 1v98
based on this, maybe the best introduction to RPGs is paper mario. menu based combat that still has some element of timing and execution, you can see enemies before you fight, entertaining writing, fairly simple systems
She came up with that bear name awfully fast. How long has she thought about owning a bear?
I'd love to see you and The Lady You Live With cover some co-op games!
It Takes Two would be a really cool game to see you guys experience, as it has gotten a LOT of positive reviews when it comes to a two-player-experience.
I personally loved playing this with a passing friend and I cannot imagine how much more fun it would be playing with a significant other!
The way she says “lm just throwing compliments at a frog” lmao honey that’s life for most people
One of my friends first ever game was Ori and the Blind Forest. She struggled like crazy and took a long time to finish the game but loved it. She loved the way the game looked and liked the save function. You should have her try some Metroidvanias.