I honestly think this is what made me put down TotK after the first big dungeon (I started in the dessert). All the stuff I went off to explore just felt so lacking that I eventually just didn't pick it back up
@mekannatarry1929 lmao a lot of grottos rarely contain anything at all xD I wish there were more little collectibles or abilities to pick up so that a lot of those spaces were filled. OOT is great, and it pathed a way forward, but every 3d zelda after that point, admittedly, didn't do much to really push the series' gameplay mechanics forward
Me: "Hey, Razbuten hasn't uploaded in a while. I wonder what's been taking up so much of his time?" Razbuten: [offhand mention of Factorio] Me: "Ahhhhh"
@@mrhatsy I know, I was making a silly joke. (That said, there is literally a line in the Factorio EULA that says they are not responsible if you stay up too late playing it and can't go to school or work in the morning!)
Raz: A prime example I’ve talked about in the past, and will talk about again in the future, you can’t stop me, is- Me: OUTER WILDS!! Raz: Hollow Knight Me: damn it
funny enough, similar to Outer Wilds-- Elden Ring rewards (the unique rewards anyways) is always nice to me regardless of if i ever use them or not because they are tied to the story and world lore
I love how the Breath of the Wild DLC’s reward is basically “you did a really long quest, so here is a literal motorcycle that shouldn’t exist in universe and it kinda breaks the gameplay, but it’s fucking sick so who cares”
What's great is that this was, verbatim, the dev's justification for it. Aunoma pulled rank to have them put in a motorcycle because he wanted to ride around Hyrule in a motorcycle.
@@eli33 thats debatable, horses have a higher top speed, automatically follow roads and also don't require fuel of any sort. There's a time and place for both, and the same DLC also made it way easier to use a horse because it added gear that teleports your horse to you instantly
Once again you completely alter a certain part of my brain that ignores these things in games, and now I am thinking about how each of the games I play keep me playing more by offering more and more rewards.
game that have no interesting ultra repetitive gameplay needs some type of reward to keep going. Gow ragnarok is pretty bad if we are honest, technically and gameplay wise.
If you want to ponder on rewards, try Legends of Runeterra. The game is pretty good and also pretty chill, and it keeps SHOWERING you with rewards. You get a lot of time to spectate what it does to you.
"It's not just about giving players something cool, it's about making them feel like they got something cool"-As a DM this hits so hard. You can head out dozens of magic items and get a meh and it gets written down on a sheet that's never seen. Tie it into their back story, give it some cinematic flavor, make it a personal quest reward and BAM they are using it every combat.
I still remember how one of the most memorable items me and my friends got in a campaign was just a Korok Leaf knockoff that we all agreed to be the best tool ever, especially for the character it belonged to since they had a really light body and smoke based abilities.
For me the most satisfying solution to this problem is receiving rewards that have nothing to do with progression or making the player stronger. I really like when a game gives rewards that are fun or interesting but have little to do with the actual gameplay. Tarry Town in BoTW is a great example. By doing the lengthy quest line the main reward you get is to see that you had an impact on the game world, you caused things to change and I love that kind of reward. Interesting cosmetics can be very compelling for me too. I love the glider fabrics you can receive in ToTK. A lot of cozy games will give you cosmetics as a reward for exploration and honestly in BoTW and ToTK the main rewards I cared about collecting were all the different armors, not necessarily because they made me stronger. Even in a serious game it can be fun to dress my character up in goofy hats! Something as simple as giving me a base of operations and then allowing me to find items out in the world to decorate it with is a great means of reward for me. An added bonus is that adding a system into a game for these types of rewards adds more variety, fun, and interesting things to engage with, without having to finely balance or integrate it all into the main progression mechanics of the game.
i loved collecting all the armor in totk, just having that long page to scroll through was fun, plus a lot of them can be dyed in hateno so i could play dressup in sillier colors
Reminded me of Digimon world 1 for PS1. You would go out of town to find digimons that had been going rogue and violent, talk or beat sense back into them and they would go back to town. You'd both see new Digimon around, see the city grow back bit by bit and on top of that get new features and conveniences. A lot of them were mandatory, but technically not all and some not in any particular order. Pretty cool
The God of War example is actually a great reward, because it is both cosmetic and mechanical, so it satisfies multiple types of gamers. (I'm the type that would be pissed to just receive a cosmetic reward)
The problem with this kind of thing is that it's hit or miss how different players will react to it. I, for example, do not interact with "decorating your base" content in games, because I don't find it enjoyable, which means that if I do a quest and the reward is a chair for my base it won't feel very good, while other people might enjoy it.
Fair enough. For me this type of reward highly depends on if I enjoy the for its world, the art, how it feels moving around and traveling within the world, etc. If some RPG game gave me a reward like that which changed a town's appearance but I don't really care about the game's world that much then the reward would feel kinda silly and like a huge waste of my time. Cosmetic rewards or rewards with no gameplay implications are cool if the world you are playing in is fascinating to you and you enjoy the visual style of the game, etc. If the game world isn't that compelling and exciting to explore in then I feel like these types of cosmetic rewards end up feeling worthless. Immersion into a game's world is a big reason (for me) that makes cosmetic rewards like that valuable. For example a game like Valheim or Enshrouded has me neck deep immersed into their world because of the style and scope and content within the open world of the game and they make traversing and exploring fun rather than feeling like an obnoxious chore. In those games when you find new materials you unlock new cosmetic things you can build like furniture or new walls/structure components you can make from them. However there are games where the world isn't very exciting or fun to explore in and so getting cosmetic rewards aren't exciting as why would I use them when I don't care about how my house looks or how the town changes when I complete a quest, etc. Now this is partly subjective based on your own taste and how a game's world appeals to you but the point is cosmetic rewards can feel like a massive waste of time if the game's world isn't immersive. MMOs are a great example of this too. For me a game like WoW I couldn't care less about how my character looks or what mount I had because I don't enjoy the visual aesthetic of the game but in a game like FF14 my character's "glamour" or cosmetic outfit matters a lot to me because I like how the game looks and feels, when I play it I feel immersed and you get to see your own personal character with the outfit you put on them in the storyline cutscenes.
As a person who has almost 200 hrs in dave the diver. Your opinion summed it up perfectly. I would spend ~45 min per run to have every fish I could want, but after the nursery, I was barely in the water. Yes I was tired of doing hour long runs just to run out of oxygen in the last 10 seconds, but it immediately took out any risk of diving deeper.
My friend has been playing it for a few weeks now, maybe a month, and he modded it so he has unlimited O2 and unlimited inventory for fish and does 2+ hour dives clearing out the seafloor. I'm curious how much longer he will play for as he's already past the frozen part of the map, and it sounds super repetitive to me but not as challenging
Perfect timing, I was just looking for my nightly video essay to fall asleep to (I'll rewatch it tomorrow to appreciate your glorious editing, promise)
I wonder if these guys realize how many of us do that? Between razbuten and Noah Caldwell, I’ve been getting bed time stories for years. I’m a 41 year old man.
Babe wake up a new video that’s strangely chill but recontextualizes a video game structure/design element in a way that’s deeply interesting by a UA-camr I love just dropped!
I love all of your videos, but this might be the first time I've disagreed with you on a point about a game. I went into Dave the Diver thinking it was a cute game about running a sushi shop, and that I'd be done playing after a few hours once the game loop got repetitive. Instead, just as I was getting tired of serving beer, I got to automate part of it. And as I got more and more tired of the repetitive parts, I got to automate more and more, and the people I hired got better and better, which was incredibly satisfying. Automating all of that was what made me realize what Dave the Diver actually was - A wacky and sometimes heartfelt story about preservation, finding your family, and helping your neighbors. I played that game for 38 more hours than I expected to because of the mechanics you described. If there's anything I've learned from your channel, though, it's that different people will get different experiences out of games - sometimes just because of when in your life you played it.
I haven't played Dave the Diver and I also felt "What?" From his points about progressing to make things easier. Then he immediately contradicted his point by including Factorio where it's the same thing but in this case it's an neverending improvement loop.
Reminds me of The Witness where the reward for completing puzzles is almost always just more puzzles. A lot of people seem to hate that, but I loved it, as I learned I got access to more of the game and got deepen my understanding of its rules. You don’t always need a gear upgrade or cutscene.
An underrated reason to pay attention to the lore in Souls games instead of just watching VaatiVidya is that it makes the rewards you otherwise wouldn't care about more meaningful. Every item you pick up has text attached to it, and though sometimes its just "This is a rusty sword" type stuff, the rewards you get from bosses/hard found items typically have some interesting worldbuilding or story attached. I might not care about picking up a spell my character can't use, but its still exciting to me, because I want to learn more about the world.
In some games it's so boring when you pick up a weapon and its stats are +1 strength or +1 magic. I prefer some variety like a poison dagger, or a ring of invisibility, or boots of haste, or an explosive shotgun, or a freeze grenade.
yeah this is something that i've really been enjoying about elden ring! i know a lot of the lore but i get excited to get any item even if i don't care about what it does and will never use it because it means i get to get a little bit of lore haha
I think the way that Mario Odyssey rewards players is interesting too, where you never actually get more powerful. You just get moons for progression, but trying to get more moons means you just get better at the game. You could beat the entire game without learning many of the abilities and moves, but if a player is willing to invest themselves in the optional content they get better at the game allowing them to engage in more optional content, without Mario gaining abilities or powers in any way
Yeah a lot of Mario games really do this kind of thing right. They often just reward you with more game for getting the optional stuff, and a lot of the time the extra parts of the game you unlock are challenge levels, like the final level in Mario Odyssey that if I remember right you need every moon to unlock, and while it's still not crazy challenging, it was the most challenging thing in the game and felt satisfying the beat.
Hollow Knight's final boss dynamic is something I really noticed when I went for the speedrun achievements, because before I never went into the Hollow Knight fight without having made a lot of progression already, so the fight has always been super easy to me But with next to nothing upgraded during a speedrun, the fight was genuinely hard and I had to take several attempts, and it was the first time this fight actually felt challenging
@@Wurmze By the point you reach the final boss, you'll likely already have faced more difficult bosses if you explore the map more than required for an any%
@@Wurmze Hollow Knight is a game where you need to learn the song and dance for every boss, once you have that down, it's not that bad for most of them. Unless you don't have some progression upgrades, you expect to have... In which case, good luck since then the entire song changes.
Hollow knight itself is like Gwyn on Dark Souls 1, the character is not at their peak. HK is weak because he is infected. This is proven when you fight Pure Vessel on Pantheon 4/5, its primal form.
Transistor, a previous game from the Hades devs, has the single best progression (and difficulty selection) system I've seen so far, sadly it's been largely forgotten about
Maybe I'll have to finally give this game a playthrough. I have it on steam, I forget how I got it (if I purchased it or got it gifted, idk). I've played it a few times but never any longer than 20-30 minutes total.
That games ends too quickly, though. Like, as soon as I've got all this cool stuff and I'm finally getting a real grip on the combat and strategy, the game just kinda ends. I dont blame the devs for not making the game longer as this isn't always feasible, but it still meant the progression felt weird to me.
Honestly, I really adore the "here's a thing, just have fun" rewards. When you're playing a game with items you need to craft or level weapons, rewards can start feeling kinda generic. And there becomes the balancing issues brought up. I ended up getting that new Sly Cooper port on PS5 and I was brought back to the days where games were just fun. Here's a level, explore it. What's your reward for finding all the things? Here's an ability that probably won't help, but it's fun to use.
@@reaperraider999 Just the original. I believe it's running on one of the new emulators PlayStation made and it's pretty good. Not that many visual bugs, no input delay that I could see, no weird shenanigans, it's just solid.
"the days where games were just fun" is such a profoundly weird statement, as if games as a whole stopped being fun because some AAA games have crafting systems
I actually love when games allow me to become overpowered via side content. Challenges are fun, but there's also fun in the typical power fantasy. I get that some people get disappointed when they make the final boss trivial, but something like Majora's Mask, getting the Deity Mask, It was so satisfying to just beat the hell out of the final boss. I put in the time, I did every side quest, let me slap down the boss like the god I now am 😅 New Game + scratches that same itch for me. I did the leg work, now i'll do it again but run circles around everyone.
I'm the exact opposite. I am extremely careful not to over-level my character. I try to avoid doing a level 10 map first, because if I go to a level 4 map later, I'm so over-leveled that the wolves are doing 1 damage to me. I try to guess the intended order of locations and I try not to grind. This gives the best difficulty curve for me.
I recently played Kingdom Come: Deliverance for the first time. I had heard a lot of people talk about how hard it is so I avoided the main quest and grinded like crazy. When I got to the first big fight I was so nervous. I ended up winning in two hits. It was a little disappointing but also I couldn't stop laughing. I didn't realize how much I had overcompensated.
@@One.Zero.One101 I'm the same way! I'm always careful to not go ahead and do something if it means I might become overpowered where I think I shouldn't. I enjoy the difficulty of a challenge, but I have to admit that regulating what I should/shouldn't do based off what I think is the "correct" way to play has become pretty exhausting. I'm trying to play games now just to have fun and see where I go. If I get overpowered, so be it :-p
I’ll piggyback off your compliment and say the same thing. I love all your videos, but I discovered you through your non-gamer lady you love with videos. I also discover a lot of games through you, since you play and show a lot of random games. This video alone made me look up Convergence, which I had no idea existed. Hope all is well at home with the new little one. You too @Wetbread2197 I hope you’re well.
I love and miss the days of endgame rewards being broken as heck. Stuff like Knights of the Round and certain materia. If the game is finished in terms of challenge, at least give us something like a cheat mode. I thought a cool reward for beating Shadow of the Erdtree would be an upgrade to Torrent. Say he runs faster, or can triple jump, allowing you to engage with New Game+ in an entirely new way. Game balance be damned, as you’ve already shown you can beat its hardest challenge.
Definitely. Resident Evil still has this in their games. Oh, you beat our hardest difficulty? Here's an infinite ammo machine gun with really high damage, go show the monsters that scared you who's boss.
@@evanpeterson3941 Yeah, massive respect to Capcom for adding those! I love how both Dragon’s Dogma and Monster Hunter also have them, in an albeit more balanced degree. Endgame builds can be crazy.
this reminds me of ratchet and clank future tools of destruction where at the end you could buy a suit or gadget (its been a while since ive played) that gave you infinite disco bombs that completely incapicate all enemies and has very limited uses until you get the infinite one
Terraria :D Also really like the terraria reward system especially with calamity, where yes the new stuff is stronger, but also fun and has a new gimmick. I wish more games would, especially as optional content reward give more gimmicky stuff thats just fun to use without making everything else obsolete
Supraland had a great “reward” at the end of the game where you can basically fly around the map and attack with blindly fast attack speed. The dev then hid chests “out of bounds” to find for funsies. I saw a similar comment about the BotW DLC giving a motorcycle. Those are my favorite types of rewards. “Thank you for playing, now here’s some hilariously broken things to blast around the game and explore.”
@@h00pla434 keep in mind most games only look good from angles the player is supposed to be. Imagine a jetpack in Skyrim, trying to fly over Whiterun only to see it's empty and full of LODs
Hey, give the Big Poe Statue quest some credit. It introduces the player to the Big Poe Statues, so aside from getting that one heart container, you also get access to that Poe Armor that gives you extra Gloom-Resistance per piece, and the statues will help you find other statues as well for more pieces of the armor, and other rewards.
*That's why I like BotW more than TotK.* BotW has so many aspects that most people don't get to see, _which makes each and every unique experience special._ BotW's whole elemental interaction system and equipment rarity changes how you see rewards. In TotK where the collectivist hoarding problem artificially "solves" the problem BotW had (as well as artificially solves the many-complained durability system), *making it easier for less skilled players **_but also diluting the gameplay experience and almost completely removing the process of overcoming difficulty of in-game enemies as well as the difficulty in problem solving_*
The MegaMan battle network system is after you collect everything and beat the hardest secret boss, you then get to fight a suped up version of the final boss. I guess you can say the devs made sure there is still q challenge for those who complete all the side quests. Also the multiplayer aspect makes it so you technically still have a challenge even after beating the game
That was something I noticed in BG3. A lot of items and abilities that only work against specific enemy types, but all the areas have their own themes with specific enemy types, so most of your stuff is sitting around being useless until you get to the area with the stuff where it suddenly becomes OP. I kinda feel like there needed to be more random enemies sprinkled in with the expected ones, it was quite annoying as a paladin just kinda waiting for undead to start showing up again so I could be more useful.
The best rewards for hard optional content, in my opinion, are convenience rewards. The bike in BotW, Dashell in Super Paper Mario, etc. You get something tangible and enjoyable to use, but that doesn’t have to break progression and gives a new experience. How nice would it have been in TotK if there was some super difficult region that, once you cleared it, you got double battery life? What if getting all 1,000 korok seeds have you a spawnable wing with no timer on it, or the ability to summon one design permanently at no cost?
I also think that locking upgrades behind challenging content is locking it away from players who need it the most whilst granting it to the people for who it will diminish the gameplay, so it really seems like the worst possible option. If anything, beating challenging optional content should make the game more challenging as you've proven you can handle a challenge. Perhaps there could be something like a cursed key, which will unlock something special at the end, but the curse will make the game more challenging, and the player can only get rid of the curse by destroying the key and thus throwing away their chance for the unlock at the end.
@@TheAssassin642not quite, I don't think hollow knight becomes more difficult after completing a difficult optional challenge, and if anything, it does give something that makes things easier, it's just that if you do enough of them, you unlock a more challenging boss fight at the end with a "true ending". What I'm suggesting is that right after completing a difficult challenge, you gain something like a cursed key as an item, which will unlock something at the end, but the curse from the key will make things more difficult from the moment it is obtained until it is destroyed (and in choosing to destroy it, the player is also choosing to forego the reward at the end). So the main differences are: -providing an additional challenge at the end Vs making the entire remainder of the game more difficult -it being a secret you'll only find out if you actually get to the end having completed enough Vs knowing that you can unlock something special at the end from the moment you get the key -having the option to destroy the key if you do not want the game to be more challenging, but foregoing the special reward at the end in doing so
@@nienke7713 I think it would feel really bad to have to throw away the key if the increased difficulty is too much. Knowing this decision is permanent I would probably hold on to it even if it would inadvertently make my game less enjoyable for me Another issue is if you do forego of the cursed reward you will be left with nothing after doing something slightly too challenging for your liking or exploring off track and finding what's supposed to be a cool secret. Both things that were meant to give rewards This would also mean that future side content will be less enticing if you if you can expect it to only grant you dissatisfaction which is unfortunate It's an interesting idea though, which is why I spent the time to discuss it. I haven't seen something like this before!
@@rainingBrackets fair point, I figured having some option to get rid of it if a player doesn't like the increased difficulty would be better than just being stuck with it, but being able able to just drop it and get it back later would mean players would just be better off dropping it and getting it back only when they need it, defeating the purpose of it all, because why would you choose to willingly carry some sort of debuff with you if it comes with no benefit?
Enemy scaling is the solution that works for me. I turn on enemy scaling on all games that allow it. For example in Witcher 3, it got boring when nekkers couldn't even scratch me. I had over-leveled because I did all the side quests. I turned on enemy scaling and I died to the nekkers because I had gotten overconfident and lousy. Enemy scaling kept me on my toes and kept the game exciting.
Dave the diver is my cozy way to unwind after a long day. I've already finished the story and unlocked everything, so there's no real pressure to "win" or "get anywhere", I mostly dive for the sake of just diving around, seeing the fish, falling into a trance with the soothing music.
I'm reminded of a talk that Derek Yu gave a while ago about Spelunky 2. He was talking about rewards and optional content, and how when you do something optional in spelunky, it opens up a path to something ultimately more challenging. This generated a conversation about how doing an optional challenge should give you reward, and Derek's point was that the extra challenging secret area was the reward. You'd proven that you were skilled by doing the challenging thing, and the reward was a new means to test you skill further. I think about that a lot. Getting a new trinket is awesome, but if it makes everything trivial then it robs the game of it's friction. But if the reward is a greater challenge, then you get to deliver newer greater friction to the players who will want it the most. That is why I think your hollow night example rings so true.
I just thought of an interesting contrast between the optional rewards in Starcraft 2 vs. Doom (2016). In all campaigns of Starcraft 2, there are optional objectives in most missions which are usually harder to get than simply beating the mission. This seems like a reverse difficulty adjustment - the better you are at the game, the more bonuses you get to make the game easier. It's possible that the goal was to give the players a reason to replay past missions if they are stuck on the current ones. In the other hand, the rewards in Doom are, at least partially, tied to exploration, not combat. In other words, if you interact with non-combat parts of the game, you get to spend less time in combat because you're stronger now. I think it's an interesting idea, combining optional challenges and rewards in a way that alters the game towards the optional challenge and away from everything else.
Optional rewards can be story content, cosmetics with a slight upgrade and a side-grades, which changes how you can approach the main game-play. All these three options reduce effect of rewards for optional quests on the main power curve and reduces the need to balance for it. Additional idea: finishing side quest can introduce new threats into game, increasing difficulty without leveling up everything oblivion-style.
The best reward is unlocking a new area, so you can see and play something new. This is the biggest issue I have with open world, I can just tourism everywhere and now all that is left are collecting items and leveling up. I don't like when the final boss is hard. You work for hours and hours to get there, then sorry too hard boss at the end you played for nothing when you cannot beat him. Thank you for wasting your time.
I mean no offense intended but that 2nd part is just a "get good" moment. Games need climaxes at then end. Not every game needs a massive spike in the final event/boss but if the game is about having challenges to overcome then the final "moment" aka boss should a peak, a culmination of all the trials and challenges you've faced thus far so that when you finally finish it you feel that dopamine peak of "omg I finally did it, holy fuck that boss was hard." Also, that's a weird perspective to take on a hard boss. You just give up after getting there and being unable to just faceroll them over and beat them in a few tries max?
So glad you showed the Depths statues, I was so excited to see where that quest led and lost all of that excitement realizing it was just 4 shrines worth of health/stamina.
I think in the context of rewards where 'number go up', there is another dimension to consider: Specialisation. Even if you don't unlock any new abilities, you can still be rewarded with a choice to upgrade certain stats over others. A good example is Elden Ring (but it's a common thing in DnD-like RPG's). You choose what stat to boost whenever you level up, thus pushing your own playstyle more and more (e.g. melee vs magic). I think from a balance perspective, this makes stuff both simpler and more complicated. On the one hand players can now choose for a playstyle that's easier or that suits them better, leaving the 'balancing' in the hands of the player instead of the devs. But on the other hand it creates many more branching playstyles and dev's have to be mindful that some playstyles aren't unexpectedly broken or get stuck at certain parts of the game (e.g. your carefully cultivated OP magic is suddenly disabled for a lategame boss and you have to rely on a rusted dagger while having no hp or strength)
Elden Ring vs TotK 3rd Pick Make respec-ing part of the core gameplay loop as it is in COD. You don't even have to wait til the end of a match to respec. Then, finding new things will seem more interesting. Because it isn't so much work to figure out if you want to try them or not. You can just try them
On the problem of balancing final bosses against players who do more vs less side content - games could implement some sort of dynamic difficulty? It would create the issue that players may feel 'punished' for doing side content - but they'd also be much stronger at the same time. For example, I was reminded of how in FF7 the final boss is buffed for every level 99 character you have, as well as if you tried to use Knights of the Round on an earlier part of the fight.
In my personal opinion, the best final reward a game can give the player is the accomplishment itself. For example, getting the true end of Hollow Knight. Or P-ranking Soul Survivor on Violent Difficulty. Or getting 101% in Pizza Tower. There’s no tangible reward, other than the flashy visual when you see it. All of the previously rewarded upgrades lead to these moments.
im watching this from a standpoint of designing a game myself. something i really want to nail is making players interested in the lore, like the opening cutscene of death stranding did this too well for me, i want to do that aswell. i read every single boring text entry i unlocked. if i manage to hook my players just the same, i can use lore as a reward, i dont think i can do anything much wrong with that. it satisfies questions you had but opens up more qustions aswell. also presenting the lore in a way thats not "boring audio log" or "too long didnt read text" is important but in hollow knight just exploring to see new things felt extremely rewarding aswell, even if it was just a charm i never used but knowledge is interesting aswell, like showing a hidden use of an ability you already had for a long time, or the location of a secret in a place you have already been to. the reward is the promise of a bigger reward. its like explorer maps in minecraft and structure mods too, i just looted this cool new structure and found a map to another cool structure i never saw before
26:51 I wonder if delaying rewards would make for a fun gameplay mechanic. In a way, you could potentially create a sense of excitement because you’d know that you’d be getting something at some point in the future (kinda like the excitement you get from buying something you really like online and waiting for it to arrive at your door).
Kinda reminds me of the Chaos boons from Hades? They give you a debuff for a few fights in exchange for a reward after the debuff ends. (Could also see a cool mechanic around choosing between a smaller buff immediately or a big buff later, would work well in a tough roguelike where you might need to take the immediate reward to scrape by) (Edit: just remembered that the halo pieces from 20 minutes til dawn are kinda like that second idea, you have to pass up on immediately useful upgrades to collect pieces of your halo, then you get a big buff once you’ve got all 3 and put ur halo back together)
This is has been done in quite a few games to one degree or another. In PoE there was a temp league where you could choose an immediate reward that was usually a basic currency or item, OR you could fight another wave of enemies with harder modifiers and if you beat them you would another chance to take a better currency/item OR double down again and take your shot at earning an even better reward. I think delayed rewards is a cool mechanic as long as you have a choice between delaying it for a better reward or more of that reward vs taking the immediate reward.
My favourite item in vanilla WoW is the Gnomish Universal Remote. I like items like that. It's usefullness is very situational but it keeps having that situational use regardless of level and knowing that when you make it makes it feel all the more revarding.
i think a combination of elden ring and zeldas styles is my ideal system. unique rewards like elden ring, but with the option to "sell" them (or pawn it with the ability to buy back later if you change your build) in exchange for the boring but always useful rewards that zelda's dungeons give you. so you retain the excitement of not knowing exactly what the reward is going to be from a dungeon, but dont have to deal with the dissapointment of it being something that is useless to you with your current build
My favorite task in cyberpunk 2077 was the vending machine task. There werent really mucj rewards to speak of, but it was an awesome side story which is very easily missable. Its not listed as a quest on the map.
I really wish you'd start your videos with a list of games you show in the video so I can choose whether or not I'm ok with being spoiled for games I haven't played that you show content from. "This video contains spoilers for the following games: ..."
MOMODORA SPOTTED!!! in momo4 i once did a no melee challenge and ended up using like basically every item in one battle, including ones you get for taking no damage during bosses. all because the boss (or one of them rather) didn't take any damage from arrows crosscode spotted too!! sweet!!
I remember I played Ni No Kuni and you could choose the rewards you got from doing sidequests and my favourite has always been the one that allows you to jump, it literally says it's useless in the description but there's something so satisfying about jumping around the world even if your hitbox doesn't actually change when you jump (so you can't jump onto anything). This game also gives you a car post game which is tons of fun imo especially cause it doesn't make sense in the fantasy world it's set in
Interesting. You really thought the subject through. The description of hidden rewards at the end of the video reminds me of the first time I found a hidden block in Super Mario Bros. Finding secrets is like discovering more than what the game wants to show us. And being rewarded with an extra life was a big deal back then. I guess it's because it used the best aspects of the formula: valuable gameplay-wise considering it's a difficult game, and unique because of how rare it is.
Then there is Fire Emblem where each of your units only has a ~10-60 percent chance for any stat to increase upon a level up. Sometimes you end up with characters that can 1-shot foes and other times they are nearly unusable by late game because they're so weak.
You're point about Convergence with each upgrade giving you a tangible gameplay difference is why I love Sonic Heroes. As the level ups in that game literally open doors to opportunities that you didn't have before and know you'll lose them upon dying makes them all the more rewarding.
I think it was the game "Tales of the Abyss" that had a unique approach to rewards - well, at least one. If you got all ultimate weapons for your characters, the final boss had an additional form. He wasn't hard, but this idea could be taken to more interesting places...
Maaaan, did you forget narrative rewards? Bits of lore, character developpement, immersive interractions with NPCs, those are personally the reasons why I bother with side quests.
Path of Exile is even worse because you have to haul all that shit, throw it into the stash and then sell it to other players and manually trade every single thing.
@@jorge69696How's that worse!? In recent Diablo game trash loot are Trash, in PoE if you can sell them to players then there's value to it. I don't get the logic here.
Personally I am a huge fan of PoE. I think that having fun with the RNG loot requires a bit of addiction to make it feel rewarding. There is very impactful loot en masse but it’s entirely possible to go for five hours or more without a single upgrade to the current build and I can see how that is definitely not for everyone. And yes, it could be considered a meaningless timesink (but I don’t care too much when I‘m having fun).
Thanks for another great video, I was engrossed with Dave the Diver but fell out of love with it when I had to do a bunch of fetch quests for the sea people and felt like I wasn't running the sushi restaurant anymore. I'm glad videos like this are made to shed light on perspectives as to why a player might not feel inclined to commit to a game play loop when the loop becomes too automated I'm a manual kinda player 🤙
Wasn't expecting a Bellroy sponsorship, but was cool to see, I love their stuff! I've had their backpack and a wallet for almost a decade now, and got a sling a couple years ago, they make great products.
5:51 whats the game name? I hope if you can always put the name of the games shown in the corner of the video or at least dump the whole list in the description, u can even help some of the games to get more exposure this way.
This is a really fun video! I've always been fascinated by what I find rewarding in games and why. Often it's as simple as some pretty notes of music when I accomplish something, or the way items look that makes them appealing to collect even more of them than I need. Like the Legend of Zelda "puzzle solved" musical sequence, or the way the shiny little berries pop off the bushes in Valheim!
19:50 While I love Elden Ring, this is one area where I really think they took a step backwards. In the Dark Souls games, there was a clear structure in how the game gave you upgrade materials, and it was thoughtful enough that regularly changing to a new weapon generally felt possible: Zone 1 - Enough to upgrade one weapon to +3, or two weapons to +2 Zone 2 - Enough to take one weapon to the next tier (+4), and enough to take a second weapon to the end of the first tier (+3) with a bit left over Zone 3 - A few more tier two upgrade materials, and a shop with infinite tier one materials Zone 4+ - Repeat of the above but with everything up a tier If you found a cool weapon that you wanted to try, you knew that you could save the sparse materials you were finding, and soon enough you would have infinite supply such that you could quickly bring the cool weapon up to your current weapon's level. Then you can spend the sparse material you've been saving on whatever you wanted to use moving forward. In Elden Ring, the time between the infinite supply shop is ludicrously protracted, and in that time you can find a huge number of new weapons to try. Most likely your main weapon is several tiers, and so it feels super risky to spend materials bringing a new weapon up to that level. If it doesn't pay off you've probably locked yourself out of trying something else for a long long time. This problem is amplified for those doing things out of order - in my current playthrough my main weapon is currently at +20, but I only have an endless amount of materials that could take a new weapon up to +12...
>In Elden Ring, the time between the infinite supply shop is ludicrously protracted, and in that time you can find a huge number of new weapons to try. Most likely your main weapon is several tiers, and so it feels super risky to spend materials bringing a new weapon up to that level. If it doesn't pay off you've probably locked yourself out of trying something else for a long long time. Tho in Eldenring you simply do not need all upgrades to get a hang of the weapon. When I find a new weapon I simply use it before upgrading. If the moveset is cool I may invest into it. If it's meh I won't spent on it. All weapons are viable and you don't need 20+ for a playthrough. It's easier that way but imo the 8 level do not hurt that much. Also Eldenring is superbly replayable.
This was almost 'difficulty is weird 2.0.' Rewards are _such_ an important part of video games. I find it interesting that sometimes stat upgrades feel good and sometime they don't and I haven't exactly figured out why yet.
Happy to see The Pathless as one of the good examples. So much fun to just go and figure things out there, and also making life easier in the process. 🏮🏮🏮
You didn't mention one type of reward that can be both inside and outside the game itself that gives me a lot of satisfaction: The achievements/trophy case. It's very rewarding for me to look at, for example, my steam achievement count and see "you completed this game by getting all the achievements from both mainline content and all the optional content", even more so if there are secret achievements that you don't understand until you do the thing by accident, encouraging the sense of exploration and/or community bonding as people help each other uncover these parts of the game together. In-game as well there are often satisfying "trophy walls" which take on various forms, often in the game's main hub, and are rather satisfyingly for me to take a break every now and then to just walk around and bask in the cool things I picked up along the way.
I LOVED this episode!! Thoughtful content as always. I'm a completionist, so I try to get EVERYTHING, which nets it's own issues, some of which you've highlighted here
Also shoutout to Ultrakill for having it’s major rewards for mastering the base game be additional more difficult levels which are the best in the game
13:19 As a big fan of roguelikes, this is a big reason why they can be so good for me. Plain or mostly vertical progression in a lot of games can make them feeling *really* boring and pointless. The skill tree concept also applies to a lot of roguelike progression, since you are given options to expand your abilities.
I've always considered rewards to serve one of 3 purposes: 1. Token of Appreciation. Be it cosmetic armor, a complete quest log, or a giant deku seed, it does nothing more than be a cool trophy 2. Increase scope and complexity. This lets devs make the game as deep as they want, without making the beginning overwhelming. Even the simplest "big number go up" does this, 1 million xp every second feels way more to process than doing 1 damage with your stick on every enemy. 3. Diagetic difficulty modification. Usually, it makes the game easier, but sometimes, like in roguelikes, it makes the game harder by adding restrictions to future runs. This seems to be where a lot of your "weirdness" comes from your playthroughs, but I think this is a matter of preference more than good game design. I for one love when Dave the Diver or other type of tycoon games sort of flatten out and become simpler as you get better. It's such a clever simulation of skill. My favorite rewards are endgame difficulty modifiers that ruin balance, funny enough. Congrats, you killed the super hard bird boss rush, the single most challenging hurdle in this game, you've proven your worth. Here's the strongest blade and armor in existence. This isn't just power fantasy, this is straight up a cheat code, have fun. It's not a half measure, it's the only award fitting for a powerful god such as yourself. That said, I despise when games hide a secret final boss or true ending behind completing all of the side content. It makes beating the game normally feel hollow, and it makes everything feel required now. I'm okay with missing fun and interesting portions of a game hidden behind optional segments I don't enjoy, I think allowing players to miss out on fun is necessary if you're going to make everything in the game fun, but to hide the literal greatest climax at your disposal behind grabbing a bajillion health pots with a guide on your second monitor is the biggest turn off a game can give me.
Rewards are quests but given to you not by a normal NPC but the developers themselves. Its like the ancient Greek pantheon of gods and Zeus himself gave you some side quests to do that marked not how well you do a single questiline but how good you are at the game itself. Or they are just a list of challenges that dont make sense inside the game world itself.
I find that for me the reward is usually discovering something new. I think that's why I love games like Elden ring so much because even though the item at the end isn't always what I need, I feel a sense of accomplishment and excitement for finding a new place on the map. Grinding for gear just enables the exploration.
I feel this could be made more concise by instead recatagorising your points as intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards. Intrinsic rewards are rewards that the action is the reward itself. Fighting a boss, unlocking a new level, story cutscenes, specific game mechanics like traversal or combat are examples of this. Extrinsic rewards are rewards given to players in response to an action. Loot, skill points, power/health value increases, collectables are examples. And some rewards are a mix of both, thus not mutually exclusive. For example Jak and Daxter's power cells are extrinsic rewards as they given in response to an action but are also intrinsically rewarding because because collecting one randomly plays one of several funny animations of the player characters dunking the power cell in their backpack. The hard part is getting a good mix that regularly shifts so it doesn't overly use 1 type or stay the same so long it stagnates. Borderlands and other looter shooters often have this problem where they throw so much extrinsic rewards at you constantly that you become numb to it or have so high a standard that getting the rush from new loot is almost impossible. I can get 40 loot drops from a boss in Borderlands 3 but anything not a legendary is ignored and unless it's a good roll those legendaries are ignored too leading to dissatisfactory rewards.
Thanks, man! Great video and good insights. Yeah, balancing meaningful rewards versus scaling difficulty progression versus "optional versus mandatory" content has got to be one of the hardest things about game development. And then all those ratios are probably different, depending on the genre of game involved and previous player expectations about that genre or series. Sounds like too many plates to juggle for me, but I'm glad someone does so that I can continue to have games to play.
(I don't really know what to say, but here's a comment for the algorithm or something). Also, as a long time fan of factorio (like, I played it when it was still in the alpha days), factorio's reward system is fundamentally intrinsic. At this point, you can go online and get blueprints that will literally beat the game for you. The entire joy (that I get) from factorio is in the designing of things. I challenge myself to meet a certain goal. I usually set this as a broad long term goal of 'I want this base to produce X science per minute'. Then I go through the sciences. What do I need to make each one? How many of each machine? And then we get to the meat of the problem for me: how should I place these buildings to optimize my throughput? Can I split the build up into multiple smaller ones? We then get to the more monotonous bit of how will I supply this factory (the answer is pretty much always trains. Unless the base is small enough that a bus can just do it well enough). I tend to play with mods for the additional complexity, and the novelty. Solving the same problem over and over again isn't as interesting as solving a new one. Anyway, there's my short blurb about why factorio is the best game ever (my opinion) and that I think everyone should play it (though if you don't like that kind of game, that's perfectly OK).
I wish there was a list of included games in the description, or that footage from games was labeled. I haven't seen some of these before, and you don't mention them by name!
Omori does a great job with rewards. Leveling up sometimes gets you new skills but not always, watermelons give treats and blue Melons give charms or weapons. It always feels like a predictable surprise and gives that dopamine.
I am the type of player that really enjoys finding hidden stuff, and the hidden stuff I like best is the 'big portion of content that is easily missed' - thinking of Hollow Knights Godhome and Grim Troupe, Dark Souls' Ash Lake and Painted World, most of Manifold Garden, or Tunics entire magic system. A close second is 'challlenge for the sake of it' - I will put myself through difficult stuff to unlock even more difficult stuff, just _because._ Godhome with bindings, Dark Souls with just fists, Terraria without crafting, or Celestes B-Sides are all fantastic pieces of media for me.
awesome video, man. got me thinking a lot about what i personally would want from extra exploration and have really spent a lot of time realizing that so many of the little skill tree upgrades with percentage boosts on attacks and speed etc are played to death and i'd almost be willing to trade those for quality of life improvements or even simple story exposition. i also think on some level, the knowledge gained on those excursions should be folded further into the game's narrative. not to say that it won't be leaked immediately on walkthrough sites, but even ways that quest-givers would be able to explain how an enemy has a weakness (maybe that weakness or exploit is only unlocked if that sidequest is complete). lots of cool ideas out there!
I'm surprised you didn't mention story rewards. Like, the reward for doing this challenging task is more info on the world and characters, cool/satisfying character moments, happier endings for characters you care about. One thing I realized with New Pokemon Snap was that while they did give minor rewards for completing challenges, the real reward was seeing a cool scene with the Pokemon. Not exactly story, but a worldbuilding reward I guess. As someone who likes sidequests that flesh out the world, I think these are my favorite kinds of rewards.
You make some great points here. One game I think does an excellent job with rewards is Zelda Skyward Sword. Everything that you can buy in Beedle’s shop is meaningful and expensive so you have to save up a lot of money to get it unlike older games like Ocarina where money is pointless. Plus, finding those cubes you have to skyward strike on the surface and then discovering the corresponding chest you unlocked in the sky was a lot of fun.
I find it really interesting that one of the things you come down on is the same as my response to the credits problem a while ago. It’s okay if players who aren’t engaged with the game at a certain level miss things. Even important things.
Razbuten proving that he is the true optional super boss of UA-cam by graciously placing the sponsored segment at the end of the video. You want those impressions, advertisers? Come back after collecting all 256 Cursed Bag Scraps.
One of the best games I’ve played in years is Minishoot Adventures, and it has one of the best reward systems I’ve ever experienced in a game. There only a handful of mandatory upgrades in the game, but there are a TON of optional upgrades and items that almost all feel substantial. It’s a twin stick bullet hell game with pretty simple combat mechanics, but that simplicity helps each upgrade feel important. An upgrade that slows time, one that lets out an explosion that gets rid of all the bullets around you, one that lets you dodge through bullets, and so many more and each of them are missable. They also did what Hollow Knight did by making a “true” final boss that really tests your abilities and it makes you really glad that you found those rewards.
Just wanted to say as someone who is creating games, your videos are super helpful and interesting. You basically talk about games from a systemic level, but a player's perspective, and that's extremely interesting because that's exactly how developers should be thinking (unless they're making their perfect version of a game). Genuinely I believe channels like yours should be mandatory viewing for aspiring devs-if they're not approaching other games from this level of analysis already, then they're going to have a really difficult time solving problems with their systems over time. Thanks for making such great content and for helping me craft my own perspective on analysis!
I just finishd Inscryption and I loved how my rewards were adding new cards to my deck - or changing my cards, generally not making them stronger, but making them stranger, smarter. Even when the game was literally just increasing the stats of one of my cards, it came as part of a "there's a chance this card will be destroyed in the process" risk/reward mechanic, that could feel pretty tense. And when that was getting stale, the game had moments showering me with narrative rewards, so I could piece out the story. I think it's much harder to reward when all the player can do is defined by a handful of buttons. In a cardgame, since each card can be 'an action', this is easier and more satisfying. Have you played Inscryption? Amazing game!
I personally believe the Dragon Age series is excellent at implementing good reasons to engage with most of the optional paths without making you so vastly overpowered (or vastly underpowered) for the main path. From story, to more party banter (which is top tier), to more unlocks for current and future playthroughs, and even optional companions. It just makes the world feel more alive as opposed to many other games with side content, personally speaking. Main reason why that series is easily my most played of any single player game outside more sandbox type titles.
I personally feel like Dave the divers progression point is to help you divert your focus to the quest line rather than getting caught up in running the restaurant. There is a lot going on in the game and the fish farms help with the player being overwhelmed (also with the option to simply sell all the fish if you prefer to supply it yourself)
An idea for balancing optional content: Your optional content impacts the story in an optional way, causing the subsequent bosses to bolster their forces, better prepare for your arrival, or maybe it gave them the time they needed to complete a crucial part of their plan.
I still think Fallout 4 has one of the best progression and rewards systems of any game. • Enemy scaling is determined to where they are on the map, so areas at the beginning will make you feel like a god after a few levels but the harder areas will still kick your butt until end game. • Most loot is randomized but still useful, so when you get a unique reward it always feel great. • There’s a lot of uses for armor and weapons that you may not want to wear. You can sell them for a good amount of caps, break them for their materials that may be hard to find, equip them to companions or settlers in your bases, or even just use them for decoration!
while I haven't put quite as much time into fallout 4, I actually feel similarly about skyrim, which makes sense. To date its still one of the only games I've played where 'enemy scaling' didnt feel like dirty words. It uses similar regional scaling on top of some other tricks which I assume returned in fallout 4. Every enemy has their own level cap based on its type and they remain restricted to gear that's appropriate to have for their faction. The game also never phases the weaker enemy types out of the game entirely so you can still see how far youve come. As for the rewards, you always come out of any dungeon with something of objective worth (more gold and skill xp) but probably also something that's entirely of subjective worth, which i think is a lot more fun! 'Sure this sword is useless, but I really like the way it looks so I'll display it.' 'Sure I wont ever use this shout in combat, but I can use it to do silly things out of combat.'
Big brain idea in case I never make a game with it myself, add hard containers to a game. They are optional content that makes cool things happen and/or gives extra story at certain times depending on how many you collect, but they do not help you at all. Instead, these hard containers do what they sound like, make the game harder.
Shoutout to the reward of getting better at the game! Which is very notable in competitive multiplayer games or for players who chase high scores/challenges/and speed runs.
I'm back and calling things weird again. hope you're all well.
Thanks! I'm glad!
Thanks for the vid
I hope you're well. Thank you for the new video.
👍
I was just thinking about this channel. Is that weird too?
I remember when clearing Hyrule Castle at the end of the BoTW and climbing one of the towers and finding a chest that gave 5 arrows. It was hilarious
Ahh, that's OOT style chest rewards; every time I play it I skip most grottos since they rarely contain anything useful.
Hey, that was 20-30 rupees you didn't have to run off to spend to continue.
I honestly think this is what made me put down TotK after the first big dungeon (I started in the dessert).
All the stuff I went off to explore just felt so lacking that I eventually just didn't pick it back up
@mekannatarry1929 lmao a lot of grottos rarely contain anything at all xD I wish there were more little collectibles or abilities to pick up so that a lot of those spaces were filled. OOT is great, and it pathed a way forward, but every 3d zelda after that point, admittedly, didn't do much to really push the series' gameplay mechanics forward
@@Capper-yc7fw the constant seek of dopamine ruined modern gaming paired with lootbox/mtx/gacha/battle pass
Me: "Hey, Razbuten hasn't uploaded in a while. I wonder what's been taking up so much of his time?"
Razbuten: [offhand mention of Factorio]
Me: "Ahhhhh"
LMAO
I believe he's had a baby, hence the "I haven't slept in 12 weeks" at the end of the video
@@mrhatsythat can also be the result of Factorio
@@mrhatsy I know, I was making a silly joke. (That said, there is literally a line in the Factorio EULA that says they are not responsible if you stay up too late playing it and can't go to school or work in the morning!)
@@revanchistvakarian575 Gee, at the end of the EULA and everything? Came out with all the stops
Raz: A prime example I’ve talked about in the past, and will talk about again in the future, you can’t stop me, is-
Me: OUTER WILDS!!
Raz: Hollow Knight
Me: damn it
funny enough, similar to Outer Wilds-- Elden Ring rewards (the unique rewards anyways) is always nice to me regardless of if i ever use them or not because they are tied to the story and world lore
@@SirEggNog I think in soul games, just beating the content is a reward by itself.
@@duyanhtran9365 Ludwig flashbacks.
@@duyanhtran9365yall fr have nothing better to do than die over and over while pretending unpolished trash is masterful game design
@@Joeysaladslover Things people too bad to beat souls games say for 400 alex
I love how the Breath of the Wild DLC’s reward is basically “you did a really long quest, so here is a literal motorcycle that shouldn’t exist in universe and it kinda breaks the gameplay, but it’s fucking sick so who cares”
What's great is that this was, verbatim, the dev's justification for it. Aunoma pulled rank to have them put in a motorcycle because he wanted to ride around Hyrule in a motorcycle.
@@TWlaz That's awesome.
completely removing the need for horses 😆
@@eli33 thats debatable, horses have a higher top speed, automatically follow roads and also don't require fuel of any sort. There's a time and place for both, and the same DLC also made it way easier to use a horse because it added gear that teleports your horse to you instantly
I hated the motorcycle. Worst reward ever.
Once again you completely alter a certain part of my brain that ignores these things in games, and now I am thinking about how each of the games I play keep me playing more by offering more and more rewards.
I'm sorry for this curse, but also this is exactly what I was aiming to do lol
Extra Credits gave me game design brain a long time ago. It's fun, but can sometimes take you out of the experience.
Every Razbuten video does this to me
game that have no interesting ultra repetitive gameplay needs some type of reward to keep going. Gow ragnarok is pretty bad if we are honest, technically and gameplay wise.
If you want to ponder on rewards, try Legends of Runeterra. The game is pretty good and also pretty chill, and it keeps SHOWERING you with rewards. You get a lot of time to spectate what it does to you.
"It's not just about giving players something cool, it's about making them feel like they got something cool"-As a DM this hits so hard. You can head out dozens of magic items and get a meh and it gets written down on a sheet that's never seen. Tie it into their back story, give it some cinematic flavor, make it a personal quest reward and BAM they are using it every combat.
I still remember how one of the most memorable items me and my friends got in a campaign was just a Korok Leaf knockoff that we all agreed to be the best tool ever, especially for the character it belonged to since they had a really light body and smoke based abilities.
For me the most satisfying solution to this problem is receiving rewards that have nothing to do with progression or making the player stronger. I really like when a game gives rewards that are fun or interesting but have little to do with the actual gameplay. Tarry Town in BoTW is a great example. By doing the lengthy quest line the main reward you get is to see that you had an impact on the game world, you caused things to change and I love that kind of reward.
Interesting cosmetics can be very compelling for me too. I love the glider fabrics you can receive in ToTK. A lot of cozy games will give you cosmetics as a reward for exploration and honestly in BoTW and ToTK the main rewards I cared about collecting were all the different armors, not necessarily because they made me stronger. Even in a serious game it can be fun to dress my character up in goofy hats!
Something as simple as giving me a base of operations and then allowing me to find items out in the world to decorate it with is a great means of reward for me.
An added bonus is that adding a system into a game for these types of rewards adds more variety, fun, and interesting things to engage with, without having to finely balance or integrate it all into the main progression mechanics of the game.
i loved collecting all the armor in totk, just having that long page to scroll through was fun, plus a lot of them can be dyed in hateno so i could play dressup in sillier colors
Reminded me of Digimon world 1 for PS1. You would go out of town to find digimons that had been going rogue and violent, talk or beat sense back into them and they would go back to town. You'd both see new Digimon around, see the city grow back bit by bit and on top of that get new features and conveniences. A lot of them were mandatory, but technically not all and some not in any particular order. Pretty cool
The God of War example is actually a great reward, because it is both cosmetic and mechanical, so it satisfies multiple types of gamers. (I'm the type that would be pissed to just receive a cosmetic reward)
The problem with this kind of thing is that it's hit or miss how different players will react to it. I, for example, do not interact with "decorating your base" content in games, because I don't find it enjoyable, which means that if I do a quest and the reward is a chair for my base it won't feel very good, while other people might enjoy it.
Fair enough. For me this type of reward highly depends on if I enjoy the for its world, the art, how it feels moving around and traveling within the world, etc. If some RPG game gave me a reward like that which changed a town's appearance but I don't really care about the game's world that much then the reward would feel kinda silly and like a huge waste of my time. Cosmetic rewards or rewards with no gameplay implications are cool if the world you are playing in is fascinating to you and you enjoy the visual style of the game, etc. If the game world isn't that compelling and exciting to explore in then I feel like these types of cosmetic rewards end up feeling worthless. Immersion into a game's world is a big reason (for me) that makes cosmetic rewards like that valuable. For example a game like Valheim or Enshrouded has me neck deep immersed into their world because of the style and scope and content within the open world of the game and they make traversing and exploring fun rather than feeling like an obnoxious chore. In those games when you find new materials you unlock new cosmetic things you can build like furniture or new walls/structure components you can make from them. However there are games where the world isn't very exciting or fun to explore in and so getting cosmetic rewards aren't exciting as why would I use them when I don't care about how my house looks or how the town changes when I complete a quest, etc. Now this is partly subjective based on your own taste and how a game's world appeals to you but the point is cosmetic rewards can feel like a massive waste of time if the game's world isn't immersive.
MMOs are a great example of this too. For me a game like WoW I couldn't care less about how my character looks or what mount I had because I don't enjoy the visual aesthetic of the game but in a game like FF14 my character's "glamour" or cosmetic outfit matters a lot to me because I like how the game looks and feels, when I play it I feel immersed and you get to see your own personal character with the outfit you put on them in the storyline cutscenes.
As a person who has almost 200 hrs in dave the diver. Your opinion summed it up perfectly. I would spend ~45 min per run to have every fish I could want, but after the nursery, I was barely in the water. Yes I was tired of doing hour long runs just to run out of oxygen in the last 10 seconds, but it immediately took out any risk of diving deeper.
it's unfortunate, the vibes of that game are immaculate.
My friend has been playing it for a few weeks now, maybe a month, and he modded it so he has unlimited O2 and unlimited inventory for fish and does 2+ hour dives clearing out the seafloor. I'm curious how much longer he will play for as he's already past the frozen part of the map, and it sounds super repetitive to me but not as challenging
Perfect timing, I was just looking for my nightly video essay to fall asleep to (I'll rewatch it tomorrow to appreciate your glorious editing, promise)
I wonder if these guys realize how many of us do that? Between razbuten and Noah Caldwell, I’ve been getting bed time stories for years. I’m a 41 year old man.
Same here
Dude, same
ICANT (this dude unironically knew how to algo and contirbute)
Babe wake up a new video that’s strangely chill but recontextualizes a video game structure/design element in a way that’s deeply interesting by a UA-camr I love just dropped!
Gives me vibes of "omg mom. Jesus was seen" "SHOW IT TO ME RACHEL PLEASE"
@@teo2805 *show me to me.
which is somehow even funnier
I love all of your videos, but this might be the first time I've disagreed with you on a point about a game. I went into Dave the Diver thinking it was a cute game about running a sushi shop, and that I'd be done playing after a few hours once the game loop got repetitive.
Instead, just as I was getting tired of serving beer, I got to automate part of it. And as I got more and more tired of the repetitive parts, I got to automate more and more, and the people I hired got better and better, which was incredibly satisfying.
Automating all of that was what made me realize what Dave the Diver actually was - A wacky and sometimes heartfelt story about preservation, finding your family, and helping your neighbors.
I played that game for 38 more hours than I expected to because of the mechanics you described. If there's anything I've learned from your channel, though, it's that different people will get different experiences out of games - sometimes just because of when in your life you played it.
I haven't played Dave the Diver and I also felt "What?" From his points about progressing to make things easier. Then he immediately contradicted his point by including Factorio where it's the same thing but in this case it's an neverending improvement loop.
Reminds me of The Witness where the reward for completing puzzles is almost always just more puzzles. A lot of people seem to hate that, but I loved it, as I learned I got access to more of the game and got deepen my understanding of its rules. You don’t always need a gear upgrade or cutscene.
An underrated reason to pay attention to the lore in Souls games instead of just watching VaatiVidya is that it makes the rewards you otherwise wouldn't care about more meaningful. Every item you pick up has text attached to it, and though sometimes its just "This is a rusty sword" type stuff, the rewards you get from bosses/hard found items typically have some interesting worldbuilding or story attached. I might not care about picking up a spell my character can't use, but its still exciting to me, because I want to learn more about the world.
Plus there's the joy in the mystery of never fully understanding the context of what went down, if you're into that sort of thing.
In some games it's so boring when you pick up a weapon and its stats are +1 strength or +1 magic. I prefer some variety like a poison dagger, or a ring of invisibility, or boots of haste, or an explosive shotgun, or a freeze grenade.
In that regard, Outer Wilds is a souls-like
yeah this is something that i've really been enjoying about elden ring! i know a lot of the lore but i get excited to get any item even if i don't care about what it does and will never use it because it means i get to get a little bit of lore haha
Oh tell me about it. I rush to the item screen as soon as I pick up anything larger than a breadcrumb
I think the way that Mario Odyssey rewards players is interesting too, where you never actually get more powerful. You just get moons for progression, but trying to get more moons means you just get better at the game. You could beat the entire game without learning many of the abilities and moves, but if a player is willing to invest themselves in the optional content they get better at the game allowing them to engage in more optional content, without Mario gaining abilities or powers in any way
The problem with Odyssey is you just need the most basic spammable hat dive jump trick to do literally everything and nothing is a challenge.
If by the basic nothing is a challenge for you then you're a peripheral target audience. An alien truth for most and very hard to accept for many.
Yeah a lot of Mario games really do this kind of thing right. They often just reward you with more game for getting the optional stuff, and a lot of the time the extra parts of the game you unlock are challenge levels, like the final level in Mario Odyssey that if I remember right you need every moon to unlock, and while it's still not crazy challenging, it was the most challenging thing in the game and felt satisfying the beat.
The real reward is the friends we made along the way.
Literally totk
The real friends we made along the way are the rewards.
Hollow Knight's final boss dynamic is something I really noticed when I went for the speedrun achievements, because before I never went into the Hollow Knight fight without having made a lot of progression already, so the fight has always been super easy to me
But with next to nothing upgraded during a speedrun, the fight was genuinely hard and I had to take several attempts, and it was the first time this fight actually felt challenging
As some one who’s never played platformers and is only two hours into hollow knight, the idea that it could ever feel easy is wild to me XD
@@Wurmze By the point you reach the final boss, you'll likely already have faced more difficult bosses if you explore the map more than required for an any%
@@gumbarius know that I will use this as motivation whenever I’m stuck XD
@@Wurmze Hollow Knight is a game where you need to learn the song and dance for every boss, once you have that down, it's not that bad for most of them. Unless you don't have some progression upgrades, you expect to have... In which case, good luck since then the entire song changes.
Hollow knight itself is like Gwyn on Dark Souls 1, the character is not at their peak. HK is weak because he is infected. This is proven when you fight Pure Vessel on Pantheon 4/5, its primal form.
Transistor, a previous game from the Hades devs, has the single best progression (and difficulty selection) system I've seen so far, sadly it's been largely forgotten about
It is also really beautiful. I don’t like the gameplay but I still have my stack of Transistor wallpapers.
Maybe I'll have to finally give this game a playthrough. I have it on steam, I forget how I got it (if I purchased it or got it gifted, idk). I've played it a few times but never any longer than 20-30 minutes total.
That games ends too quickly, though. Like, as soon as I've got all this cool stuff and I'm finally getting a real grip on the combat and strategy, the game just kinda ends. I dont blame the devs for not making the game longer as this isn't always feasible, but it still meant the progression felt weird to me.
Honestly, I really adore the "here's a thing, just have fun" rewards. When you're playing a game with items you need to craft or level weapons, rewards can start feeling kinda generic. And there becomes the balancing issues brought up.
I ended up getting that new Sly Cooper port on PS5 and I was brought back to the days where games were just fun. Here's a level, explore it. What's your reward for finding all the things? Here's an ability that probably won't help, but it's fun to use.
THERES A SLY COOPER PORT TO PS5?!?
@@reaperraider999 Yeah! It's 10 bucks
@@CrimsoniteSP is it just the original one? or is it all of them?
@@reaperraider999 Just the original. I believe it's running on one of the new emulators PlayStation made and it's pretty good. Not that many visual bugs, no input delay that I could see, no weird shenanigans, it's just solid.
"the days where games were just fun" is such a profoundly weird statement, as if games as a whole stopped being fun because some AAA games have crafting systems
I actually love when games allow me to become overpowered via side content. Challenges are fun, but there's also fun in the typical power fantasy. I get that some people get disappointed when they make the final boss trivial, but something like Majora's Mask, getting the Deity Mask, It was so satisfying to just beat the hell out of the final boss. I put in the time, I did every side quest, let me slap down the boss like the god I now am 😅
New Game + scratches that same itch for me. I did the leg work, now i'll do it again but run circles around everyone.
I'm the exact opposite. I am extremely careful not to over-level my character. I try to avoid doing a level 10 map first, because if I go to a level 4 map later, I'm so over-leveled that the wolves are doing 1 damage to me. I try to guess the intended order of locations and I try not to grind. This gives the best difficulty curve for me.
I recently played Kingdom Come: Deliverance for the first time. I had heard a lot of people talk about how hard it is so I avoided the main quest and grinded like crazy. When I got to the first big fight I was so nervous. I ended up winning in two hits. It was a little disappointing but also I couldn't stop laughing. I didn't realize how much I had overcompensated.
@@One.Zero.One101 I'm the same way! I'm always careful to not go ahead and do something if it means I might become overpowered where I think I shouldn't. I enjoy the difficulty of a challenge, but I have to admit that regulating what I should/shouldn't do based off what I think is the "correct" way to play has become pretty exhausting. I'm trying to play games now just to have fun and see where I go. If I get overpowered, so be it :-p
yes yes yes!! i love when optional content lets me melt bosses!!!
i like it when there's reactivity into it for doing a side quest/content and the game remembers that and rewards you for it.
You are my favorite UA-camr of all time man. I appreciate the calm tone and insightful retrospect. Never change bro. You da man!!
Thank you. This genuinely means a lot.
I’ll piggyback off your compliment and say the same thing. I love all your videos, but I discovered you through your non-gamer lady you love with videos.
I also discover a lot of games through you, since you play and show a lot of random games. This video alone made me look up Convergence, which I had no idea existed. Hope all is well at home with the new little one. You too @Wetbread2197 I hope you’re well.
I love and miss the days of endgame rewards being broken as heck. Stuff like Knights of the Round and certain materia. If the game is finished in terms of challenge, at least give us something like a cheat mode.
I thought a cool reward for beating Shadow of the Erdtree would be an upgrade to Torrent. Say he runs faster, or can triple jump, allowing you to engage with New Game+ in an entirely new way. Game balance be damned, as you’ve already shown you can beat its hardest challenge.
Definitely. Resident Evil still has this in their games. Oh, you beat our hardest difficulty? Here's an infinite ammo machine gun with really high damage, go show the monsters that scared you who's boss.
@@evanpeterson3941 Yeah, massive respect to Capcom for adding those! I love how both Dragon’s Dogma and Monster Hunter also have them, in an albeit more balanced degree. Endgame builds can be crazy.
this reminds me of ratchet and clank future tools of destruction where at the end you could buy a suit or gadget (its been a while since ive played) that gave you infinite disco bombs that completely incapicate all enemies and has very limited uses until you get the infinite one
avaritia
Terraria :D
Also really like the terraria reward system especially with calamity, where yes the new stuff is stronger, but also fun and has a new gimmick. I wish more games would, especially as optional content reward give more gimmicky stuff thats just fun to use without making everything else obsolete
Supraland had a great “reward” at the end of the game where you can basically fly around the map and attack with blindly fast attack speed. The dev then hid chests “out of bounds” to find for funsies. I saw a similar comment about the BotW DLC giving a motorcycle. Those are my favorite types of rewards. “Thank you for playing, now here’s some hilariously broken things to blast around the game and explore.”
Literally every game is improved by the inclusion of a jetpack. Even if only for a brief time (one of my few criticisms of The Talos Principle).
@@h00pla434 keep in mind most games only look good from angles the player is supposed to be. Imagine a jetpack in Skyrim, trying to fly over Whiterun only to see it's empty and full of LODs
@@Negniwret That's why Morrowind is the better game. :P
Hey, give the Big Poe Statue quest some credit. It introduces the player to the Big Poe Statues, so aside from getting that one heart container, you also get access to that Poe Armor that gives you extra Gloom-Resistance per piece, and the statues will help you find other statues as well for more pieces of the armor, and other rewards.
*That's why I like BotW more than TotK.* BotW has so many aspects that most people don't get to see, _which makes each and every unique experience special._ BotW's whole elemental interaction system and equipment rarity changes how you see rewards. In TotK where the collectivist hoarding problem artificially "solves" the problem BotW had (as well as artificially solves the many-complained durability system), *making it easier for less skilled players **_but also diluting the gameplay experience and almost completely removing the process of overcoming difficulty of in-game enemies as well as the difficulty in problem solving_*
The MegaMan battle network system is after you collect everything and beat the hardest secret boss, you then get to fight a suped up version of the final boss.
I guess you can say the devs made sure there is still q challenge for those who complete all the side quests. Also the multiplayer aspect makes it so you technically still have a challenge even after beating the game
Reminds me how i got a weapon in Baldurs Gate 3 that gave advantage against largr enemies
Problem was....not a lot of big enemies in Act 3
That was something I noticed in BG3. A lot of items and abilities that only work against specific enemy types, but all the areas have their own themes with specific enemy types, so most of your stuff is sitting around being useless until you get to the area with the stuff where it suddenly becomes OP.
I kinda feel like there needed to be more random enemies sprinkled in with the expected ones, it was quite annoying as a paladin just kinda waiting for undead to start showing up again so I could be more useful.
@DodgeThatAttack Hey now, it's not entirely useless, you can feed it to Gale!
The best rewards for hard optional content, in my opinion, are convenience rewards. The bike in BotW, Dashell in Super Paper Mario, etc. You get something tangible and enjoyable to use, but that doesn’t have to break progression and gives a new experience.
How nice would it have been in TotK if there was some super difficult region that, once you cleared it, you got double battery life? What if getting all 1,000 korok seeds have you a spawnable wing with no timer on it, or the ability to summon one design permanently at no cost?
I also think that locking upgrades behind challenging content is locking it away from players who need it the most whilst granting it to the people for who it will diminish the gameplay, so it really seems like the worst possible option.
If anything, beating challenging optional content should make the game more challenging as you've proven you can handle a challenge.
Perhaps there could be something like a cursed key, which will unlock something special at the end, but the curse will make the game more challenging, and the player can only get rid of the curse by destroying the key and thus throwing away their chance for the unlock at the end.
That's basically how he described Hollow Knight doing it, with the secret/true boss fight at the end
@@TheAssassin642not quite, I don't think hollow knight becomes more difficult after completing a difficult optional challenge, and if anything, it does give something that makes things easier, it's just that if you do enough of them, you unlock a more challenging boss fight at the end with a "true ending".
What I'm suggesting is that right after completing a difficult challenge, you gain something like a cursed key as an item, which will unlock something at the end, but the curse from the key will make things more difficult from the moment it is obtained until it is destroyed (and in choosing to destroy it, the player is also choosing to forego the reward at the end).
So the main differences are:
-providing an additional challenge at the end Vs making the entire remainder of the game more difficult
-it being a secret you'll only find out if you actually get to the end having completed enough Vs knowing that you can unlock something special at the end from the moment you get the key
-having the option to destroy the key if you do not want the game to be more challenging, but foregoing the special reward at the end in doing so
@@nienke7713 I think it would feel really bad to have to throw away the key if the increased difficulty is too much. Knowing this decision is permanent I would probably hold on to it even if it would inadvertently make my game less enjoyable for me
Another issue is if you do forego of the cursed reward you will be left with nothing after doing something slightly too challenging for your liking or exploring off track and finding what's supposed to be a cool secret. Both things that were meant to give rewards
This would also mean that future side content will be less enticing if you if you can expect it to only grant you dissatisfaction which is unfortunate
It's an interesting idea though, which is why I spent the time to discuss it. I haven't seen something like this before!
@@rainingBrackets fair point, I figured having some option to get rid of it if a player doesn't like the increased difficulty would be better than just being stuck with it, but being able able to just drop it and get it back later would mean players would just be better off dropping it and getting it back only when they need it, defeating the purpose of it all, because why would you choose to willingly carry some sort of debuff with you if it comes with no benefit?
Enemy scaling is the solution that works for me. I turn on enemy scaling on all games that allow it. For example in Witcher 3, it got boring when nekkers couldn't even scratch me. I had over-leveled because I did all the side quests. I turned on enemy scaling and I died to the nekkers because I had gotten overconfident and lousy. Enemy scaling kept me on my toes and kept the game exciting.
Dave the diver is my cozy way to unwind after a long day. I've already finished the story and unlocked everything, so there's no real pressure to "win" or "get anywhere", I mostly dive for the sake of just diving around, seeing the fish, falling into a trance with the soothing music.
I'm reminded of a talk that Derek Yu gave a while ago about Spelunky 2. He was talking about rewards and optional content, and how when you do something optional in spelunky, it opens up a path to something ultimately more challenging. This generated a conversation about how doing an optional challenge should give you reward, and Derek's point was that the extra challenging secret area was the reward. You'd proven that you were skilled by doing the challenging thing, and the reward was a new means to test you skill further. I think about that a lot. Getting a new trinket is awesome, but if it makes everything trivial then it robs the game of it's friction. But if the reward is a greater challenge, then you get to deliver newer greater friction to the players who will want it the most. That is why I think your hollow night example rings so true.
I just thought of an interesting contrast between the optional rewards in Starcraft 2 vs. Doom (2016). In all campaigns of Starcraft 2, there are optional objectives in most missions which are usually harder to get than simply beating the mission. This seems like a reverse difficulty adjustment - the better you are at the game, the more bonuses you get to make the game easier. It's possible that the goal was to give the players a reason to replay past missions if they are stuck on the current ones. In the other hand, the rewards in Doom are, at least partially, tied to exploration, not combat. In other words, if you interact with non-combat parts of the game, you get to spend less time in combat because you're stronger now. I think it's an interesting idea, combining optional challenges and rewards in a way that alters the game towards the optional challenge and away from everything else.
Optional rewards can be story content, cosmetics with a slight upgrade and a side-grades, which changes how you can approach the main game-play.
All these three options reduce effect of rewards for optional quests on the main power curve and reduces the need to balance for it.
Additional idea: finishing side quest can introduce new threats into game, increasing difficulty without leveling up everything oblivion-style.
The best reward is unlocking a new area, so you can see and play something new. This is the biggest issue I have with open world, I can just tourism everywhere and now all that is left are collecting items and leveling up.
I don't like when the final boss is hard. You work for hours and hours to get there, then sorry too hard boss at the end you played for nothing when you cannot beat him. Thank you for wasting your time.
I mean no offense intended but that 2nd part is just a "get good" moment. Games need climaxes at then end. Not every game needs a massive spike in the final event/boss but if the game is about having challenges to overcome then the final "moment" aka boss should a peak, a culmination of all the trials and challenges you've faced thus far so that when you finally finish it you feel that dopamine peak of "omg I finally did it, holy fuck that boss was hard." Also, that's a weird perspective to take on a hard boss. You just give up after getting there and being unable to just faceroll them over and beat them in a few tries max?
Indie dev who always finds your videos extremely engaging here. Thanks for the upload!
Fellow dev here.
Feel the same way.😊
So glad you showed the Depths statues, I was so excited to see where that quest led and lost all of that excitement realizing it was just 4 shrines worth of health/stamina.
I think in the context of rewards where 'number go up', there is another dimension to consider: Specialisation. Even if you don't unlock any new abilities, you can still be rewarded with a choice to upgrade certain stats over others. A good example is Elden Ring (but it's a common thing in DnD-like RPG's). You choose what stat to boost whenever you level up, thus pushing your own playstyle more and more (e.g. melee vs magic).
I think from a balance perspective, this makes stuff both simpler and more complicated. On the one hand players can now choose for a playstyle that's easier or that suits them better, leaving the 'balancing' in the hands of the player instead of the devs. But on the other hand it creates many more branching playstyles and dev's have to be mindful that some playstyles aren't unexpectedly broken or get stuck at certain parts of the game (e.g. your carefully cultivated OP magic is suddenly disabled for a lategame boss and you have to rely on a rusted dagger while having no hp or strength)
Elden Ring
vs
TotK
3rd Pick
Make respec-ing part of the core gameplay loop as it is in COD. You don't even have to wait til the end of a match to respec. Then, finding new things will seem more interesting. Because it isn't so much work to figure out if you want to try them or not. You can just try them
On the problem of balancing final bosses against players who do more vs less side content - games could implement some sort of dynamic difficulty? It would create the issue that players may feel 'punished' for doing side content - but they'd also be much stronger at the same time. For example, I was reminded of how in FF7 the final boss is buffed for every level 99 character you have, as well as if you tried to use Knights of the Round on an earlier part of the fight.
Everyone disliked this
In my personal opinion, the best final reward a game can give the player is the accomplishment itself. For example, getting the true end of Hollow Knight. Or P-ranking Soul Survivor on Violent Difficulty. Or getting 101% in Pizza Tower. There’s no tangible reward, other than the flashy visual when you see it. All of the previously rewarded upgrades lead to these moments.
Of course you upload it as I’m about to go to sleep raz 😂. Now I gotta stay up for another half hour lol.
im watching this from a standpoint of designing a game myself.
something i really want to nail is making players interested in the lore, like the opening cutscene of death stranding did this too well for me, i want to do that aswell.
i read every single boring text entry i unlocked. if i manage to hook my players just the same, i can use lore as a reward, i dont think i can do anything much wrong with that. it satisfies questions you had but opens up more qustions aswell. also presenting the lore in a way thats not "boring audio log" or "too long didnt read text" is important
but in hollow knight just exploring to see new things felt extremely rewarding aswell, even if it was just a charm i never used
but knowledge is interesting aswell, like showing a hidden use of an ability you already had for a long time, or the location of a secret in a place you have already been to. the reward is the promise of a bigger reward. its like explorer maps in minecraft and structure mods too, i just looted this cool new structure and found a map to another cool structure i never saw before
26:51 I wonder if delaying rewards would make for a fun gameplay mechanic. In a way, you could potentially create a sense of excitement because you’d know that you’d be getting something at some point in the future (kinda like the excitement you get from buying something you really like online and waiting for it to arrive at your door).
Hmm, I like your idea.
Kinda reminds me of the Chaos boons from Hades? They give you a debuff for a few fights in exchange for a reward after the debuff ends. (Could also see a cool mechanic around choosing between a smaller buff immediately or a big buff later, would work well in a tough roguelike where you might need to take the immediate reward to scrape by)
(Edit: just remembered that the halo pieces from 20 minutes til dawn are kinda like that second idea, you have to pass up on immediately useful upgrades to collect pieces of your halo, then you get a big buff once you’ve got all 3 and put ur halo back together)
This is has been done in quite a few games to one degree or another. In PoE there was a temp league where you could choose an immediate reward that was usually a basic currency or item, OR you could fight another wave of enemies with harder modifiers and if you beat them you would another chance to take a better currency/item OR double down again and take your shot at earning an even better reward. I think delayed rewards is a cool mechanic as long as you have a choice between delaying it for a better reward or more of that reward vs taking the immediate reward.
My favourite item in vanilla WoW is the Gnomish Universal Remote. I like items like that. It's usefullness is very situational but it keeps having that situational use regardless of level and knowing that when you make it makes it feel all the more revarding.
i think a combination of elden ring and zeldas styles is my ideal system. unique rewards like elden ring, but with the option to "sell" them (or pawn it with the ability to buy back later if you change your build) in exchange for the boring but always useful rewards that zelda's dungeons give you. so you retain the excitement of not knowing exactly what the reward is going to be from a dungeon, but dont have to deal with the dissapointment of it being something that is useless to you with your current build
i second this
My favorite task in cyberpunk 2077 was the vending machine task. There werent really mucj rewards to speak of, but it was an awesome side story which is very easily missable. Its not listed as a quest on the map.
I really wish you'd start your videos with a list of games you show in the video so I can choose whether or not I'm ok with being spoiled for games I haven't played that you show content from.
"This video contains spoilers for the following games: ..."
MOMODORA SPOTTED!!!
in momo4 i once did a no melee challenge and ended up using like basically every item in one battle, including ones you get for taking no damage during bosses. all because the boss (or one of them rather) didn't take any damage from arrows
crosscode spotted too!! sweet!!
I remember I played Ni No Kuni and you could choose the rewards you got from doing sidequests and my favourite has always been the one that allows you to jump, it literally says it's useless in the description but there's something so satisfying about jumping around the world even if your hitbox doesn't actually change when you jump (so you can't jump onto anything). This game also gives you a car post game which is tons of fun imo especially cause it doesn't make sense in the fantasy world it's set in
Interesting. You really thought the subject through. The description of hidden rewards at the end of the video reminds me of the first time I found a hidden block in Super Mario Bros. Finding secrets is like discovering more than what the game wants to show us. And being rewarded with an extra life was a big deal back then. I guess it's because it used the best aspects of the formula: valuable gameplay-wise considering it's a difficult game, and unique because of how rare it is.
Then there is Fire Emblem where each of your units only has a ~10-60 percent chance for any stat to increase upon a level up. Sometimes you end up with characters that can 1-shot foes and other times they are nearly unusable by late game because they're so weak.
You're point about Convergence with each upgrade giving you a tangible gameplay difference is why I love Sonic Heroes. As the level ups in that game literally open doors to opportunities that you didn't have before and know you'll lose them upon dying makes them all the more rewarding.
it's 5am... I have nothing better to do.
My man, get some sleep 😁
What kind of reward would you get for not sleeping that late
@@aidar999 This video o7
I think it was the game "Tales of the Abyss" that had a unique approach to rewards - well, at least one. If you got all ultimate weapons for your characters, the final boss had an additional form. He wasn't hard, but this idea could be taken to more interesting places...
I served a two year mission for my church, watched no youtube. I'm back now, it feels so good to see he still makes videos. One of my favorites
Where were you at? I was in Uruguay
Maaaan, did you forget narrative rewards? Bits of lore, character developpement, immersive interractions with NPCs, those are personally the reasons why I bother with side quests.
The only reward system I outright hate is the Diablo-like system, of having to sort through tons and tons of trash.
Path of Exile is even worse because you have to haul all that shit, throw it into the stash and then sell it to other players and manually trade every single thing.
@@jorge69696How's that worse!? In recent Diablo game trash loot are Trash, in PoE if you can sell them to players then there's value to it. I don't get the logic here.
to be honest, you rarely ever pick up things you will not sell that are not just crafting mats / exchangable for money.
Diablo is a equipment looting game when a good legendary drop, otherwise it’s a sleep-aid game
Personally I am a huge fan of PoE. I think that having fun with the RNG loot requires a bit of addiction to make it feel rewarding. There is very impactful loot en masse but it’s entirely possible to go for five hours or more without a single upgrade to the current build and I can see how that is definitely not for everyone.
And yes, it could be considered a meaningless timesink (but I don’t care too much when I‘m having fun).
Thanks for another great video, I was engrossed with Dave the Diver but fell out of love with it when I had to do a bunch of fetch quests for the sea people and felt like I wasn't running the sushi restaurant anymore. I'm glad videos like this are made to shed light on perspectives as to why a player might not feel inclined to commit to a game play loop when the loop becomes too automated I'm a manual kinda player 🤙
Meanwhile Fromsoftware bosses are like:
I just spent two hours on this boss, now I get to continue the story💀
Wasn't expecting a Bellroy sponsorship, but was cool to see, I love their stuff! I've had their backpack and a wallet for almost a decade now, and got a sling a couple years ago, they make great products.
5:51 whats the game name?
I hope if you can always put the name of the games shown in the corner of the video or at least dump the whole list in the description, u can even help some of the games to get more exposure this way.
i think it’s called the pathless. I also hope he starts including a list.
This is a really fun video! I've always been fascinated by what I find rewarding in games and why. Often it's as simple as some pretty notes of music when I accomplish something, or the way items look that makes them appealing to collect even more of them than I need. Like the Legend of Zelda "puzzle solved" musical sequence, or the way the shiny little berries pop off the bushes in Valheim!
19:50
While I love Elden Ring, this is one area where I really think they took a step backwards.
In the Dark Souls games, there was a clear structure in how the game gave you upgrade materials, and it was thoughtful enough that regularly changing to a new weapon generally felt possible:
Zone 1 - Enough to upgrade one weapon to +3, or two weapons to +2
Zone 2 - Enough to take one weapon to the next tier (+4), and enough to take a second weapon to the end of the first tier (+3) with a bit left over
Zone 3 - A few more tier two upgrade materials, and a shop with infinite tier one materials
Zone 4+ - Repeat of the above but with everything up a tier
If you found a cool weapon that you wanted to try, you knew that you could save the sparse materials you were finding, and soon enough you would have infinite supply such that you could quickly bring the cool weapon up to your current weapon's level. Then you can spend the sparse material you've been saving on whatever you wanted to use moving forward.
In Elden Ring, the time between the infinite supply shop is ludicrously protracted, and in that time you can find a huge number of new weapons to try. Most likely your main weapon is several tiers, and so it feels super risky to spend materials bringing a new weapon up to that level. If it doesn't pay off you've probably locked yourself out of trying something else for a long long time.
This problem is amplified for those doing things out of order - in my current playthrough my main weapon is currently at +20, but I only have an endless amount of materials that could take a new weapon up to +12...
>In Elden Ring, the time between the infinite supply shop is ludicrously protracted, and in that time you can find a huge number of new weapons to try. Most likely your main weapon is several tiers, and so it feels super risky to spend materials bringing a new weapon up to that level. If it doesn't pay off you've probably locked yourself out of trying something else for a long long time.
Tho in Eldenring you simply do not need all upgrades to get a hang of the weapon. When I find a new weapon I simply use it before upgrading. If the moveset is cool I may invest into it. If it's meh I won't spent on it. All weapons are viable and you don't need 20+ for a playthrough. It's easier that way but imo the 8 level do not hurt that much.
Also Eldenring is superbly replayable.
This was almost 'difficulty is weird 2.0.' Rewards are _such_ an important part of video games. I find it interesting that sometimes stat upgrades feel good and sometime they don't and I haven't exactly figured out why yet.
WAKE UP BABE!! NEW RAZBUTEN DROPPED!!
Happy to see The Pathless as one of the good examples. So much fun to just go and figure things out there, and also making life easier in the process. 🏮🏮🏮
You didn't mention one type of reward that can be both inside and outside the game itself that gives me a lot of satisfaction: The achievements/trophy case. It's very rewarding for me to look at, for example, my steam achievement count and see "you completed this game by getting all the achievements from both mainline content and all the optional content", even more so if there are secret achievements that you don't understand until you do the thing by accident, encouraging the sense of exploration and/or community bonding as people help each other uncover these parts of the game together. In-game as well there are often satisfying "trophy walls" which take on various forms, often in the game's main hub, and are rather satisfyingly for me to take a break every now and then to just walk around and bask in the cool things I picked up along the way.
So this is what was being made in the Ro Ramdin chat
LOL
I LOVED this episode!! Thoughtful content as always. I'm a completionist, so I try to get EVERYTHING, which nets it's own issues, some of which you've highlighted here
WAIT BABE DONT SLEEP! Razbuten just dropped 🎉
Also shoutout to Ultrakill for having it’s major rewards for mastering the base game be additional more difficult levels which are the best in the game
Yoooooo he uploaded!!!!
I’ve never clicked on a video faster
13:19 As a big fan of roguelikes, this is a big reason why they can be so good for me. Plain or mostly vertical progression in a lot of games can make them feeling *really* boring and pointless. The skill tree concept also applies to a lot of roguelike progression, since you are given options to expand your abilities.
30 seconds ago is diabolical
no one expects a late night drop
I've always considered rewards to serve one of 3 purposes:
1. Token of Appreciation. Be it cosmetic armor, a complete quest log, or a giant deku seed, it does nothing more than be a cool trophy
2. Increase scope and complexity. This lets devs make the game as deep as they want, without making the beginning overwhelming. Even the simplest "big number go up" does this, 1 million xp every second feels way more to process than doing 1 damage with your stick on every enemy.
3. Diagetic difficulty modification. Usually, it makes the game easier, but sometimes, like in roguelikes, it makes the game harder by adding restrictions to future runs. This seems to be where a lot of your "weirdness" comes from your playthroughs, but I think this is a matter of preference more than good game design. I for one love when Dave the Diver or other type of tycoon games sort of flatten out and become simpler as you get better. It's such a clever simulation of skill.
My favorite rewards are endgame difficulty modifiers that ruin balance, funny enough. Congrats, you killed the super hard bird boss rush, the single most challenging hurdle in this game, you've proven your worth. Here's the strongest blade and armor in existence. This isn't just power fantasy, this is straight up a cheat code, have fun. It's not a half measure, it's the only award fitting for a powerful god such as yourself. That said, I despise when games hide a secret final boss or true ending behind completing all of the side content. It makes beating the game normally feel hollow, and it makes everything feel required now. I'm okay with missing fun and interesting portions of a game hidden behind optional segments I don't enjoy, I think allowing players to miss out on fun is necessary if you're going to make everything in the game fun, but to hide the literal greatest climax at your disposal behind grabbing a bajillion health pots with a guide on your second monitor is the biggest turn off a game can give me.
Rewards are quests but given to you not by a normal NPC but the developers themselves. Its like the ancient Greek pantheon of gods and Zeus himself gave you some side quests to do that marked not how well you do a single questiline but how good you are at the game itself.
Or they are just a list of challenges that dont make sense inside the game world itself.
I find that for me the reward is usually discovering something new. I think that's why I love games like Elden ring so much because even though the item at the end isn't always what I need, I feel a sense of accomplishment and excitement for finding a new place on the map. Grinding for gear just enables the exploration.
I feel this could be made more concise by instead recatagorising your points as intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards. Intrinsic rewards are rewards that the action is the reward itself. Fighting a boss, unlocking a new level, story cutscenes, specific game mechanics like traversal or combat are examples of this.
Extrinsic rewards are rewards given to players in response to an action. Loot, skill points, power/health value increases, collectables are examples.
And some rewards are a mix of both, thus not mutually exclusive. For example Jak and Daxter's power cells are extrinsic rewards as they given in response to an action but are also intrinsically rewarding because because collecting one randomly plays one of several funny animations of the player characters dunking the power cell in their backpack.
The hard part is getting a good mix that regularly shifts so it doesn't overly use 1 type or stay the same so long it stagnates. Borderlands and other looter shooters often have this problem where they throw so much extrinsic rewards at you constantly that you become numb to it or have so high a standard that getting the rush from new loot is almost impossible. I can get 40 loot drops from a boss in Borderlands 3 but anything not a legendary is ignored and unless it's a good roll those legendaries are ignored too leading to dissatisfactory rewards.
Thanks, man! Great video and good insights. Yeah, balancing meaningful rewards versus scaling difficulty progression versus "optional versus mandatory" content has got to be one of the hardest things about game development. And then all those ratios are probably different, depending on the genre of game involved and previous player expectations about that genre or series. Sounds like too many plates to juggle for me, but I'm glad someone does so that I can continue to have games to play.
(I don't really know what to say, but here's a comment for the algorithm or something).
Also, as a long time fan of factorio (like, I played it when it was still in the alpha days), factorio's reward system is fundamentally intrinsic. At this point, you can go online and get blueprints that will literally beat the game for you. The entire joy (that I get) from factorio is in the designing of things. I challenge myself to meet a certain goal. I usually set this as a broad long term goal of 'I want this base to produce X science per minute'.
Then I go through the sciences. What do I need to make each one? How many of each machine? And then we get to the meat of the problem for me: how should I place these buildings to optimize my throughput? Can I split the build up into multiple smaller ones? We then get to the more monotonous bit of how will I supply this factory (the answer is pretty much always trains. Unless the base is small enough that a bus can just do it well enough).
I tend to play with mods for the additional complexity, and the novelty. Solving the same problem over and over again isn't as interesting as solving a new one.
Anyway, there's my short blurb about why factorio is the best game ever (my opinion) and that I think everyone should play it (though if you don't like that kind of game, that's perfectly OK).
I wish there was a list of included games in the description, or that footage from games was labeled. I haven't seen some of these before, and you don't mention them by name!
Omori does a great job with rewards. Leveling up sometimes gets you new skills but not always, watermelons give treats and blue
Melons give charms or weapons. It always feels like a predictable surprise and gives that dopamine.
I am the type of player that really enjoys finding hidden stuff, and the hidden stuff I like best is the 'big portion of content that is easily missed' - thinking of Hollow Knights Godhome and Grim Troupe, Dark Souls' Ash Lake and Painted World, most of Manifold Garden, or Tunics entire magic system.
A close second is 'challlenge for the sake of it' - I will put myself through difficult stuff to unlock even more difficult stuff, just _because._ Godhome with bindings, Dark Souls with just fists, Terraria without crafting, or Celestes B-Sides are all fantastic pieces of media for me.
Yes
That statue quest in TotK that ended up just giving a heart destroyed me
awesome video, man. got me thinking a lot about what i personally would want from extra exploration and have really spent a lot of time realizing that so many of the little skill tree upgrades with percentage boosts on attacks and speed etc are played to death and i'd almost be willing to trade those for quality of life improvements or even simple story exposition. i also think on some level, the knowledge gained on those excursions should be folded further into the game's narrative. not to say that it won't be leaked immediately on walkthrough sites, but even ways that quest-givers would be able to explain how an enemy has a weakness (maybe that weakness or exploit is only unlocked if that sidequest is complete). lots of cool ideas out there!
That "What's the point?" hit hard. Finally my feelings of the last 10 years are acknowledged!
I'm surprised you didn't mention story rewards. Like, the reward for doing this challenging task is more info on the world and characters, cool/satisfying character moments, happier endings for characters you care about. One thing I realized with New Pokemon Snap was that while they did give minor rewards for completing challenges, the real reward was seeing a cool scene with the Pokemon. Not exactly story, but a worldbuilding reward I guess.
As someone who likes sidequests that flesh out the world, I think these are my favorite kinds of rewards.
You make some great points here. One game I think does an excellent job with rewards is Zelda Skyward Sword. Everything that you can buy in Beedle’s shop is meaningful and expensive so you have to save up a lot of money to get it unlike older games like Ocarina where money is pointless.
Plus, finding those cubes you have to skyward strike on the surface and then discovering the corresponding chest you unlocked in the sky was a lot of fun.
I find it really interesting that one of the things you come down on is the same as my response to the credits problem a while ago. It’s okay if players who aren’t engaged with the game at a certain level miss things. Even important things.
Razbuten proving that he is the true optional super boss of UA-cam by graciously placing the sponsored segment at the end of the video. You want those impressions, advertisers? Come back after collecting all 256 Cursed Bag Scraps.
One of the best games I’ve played in years is Minishoot Adventures, and it has one of the best reward systems I’ve ever experienced in a game. There only a handful of mandatory upgrades in the game, but there are a TON of optional upgrades and items that almost all feel substantial. It’s a twin stick bullet hell game with pretty simple combat mechanics, but that simplicity helps each upgrade feel important. An upgrade that slows time, one that lets out an explosion that gets rid of all the bullets around you, one that lets you dodge through bullets, and so many more and each of them are missable. They also did what Hollow Knight did by making a “true” final boss that really tests your abilities and it makes you really glad that you found those rewards.
Just wanted to say as someone who is creating games, your videos are super helpful and interesting. You basically talk about games from a systemic level, but a player's perspective, and that's extremely interesting because that's exactly how developers should be thinking (unless they're making their perfect version of a game). Genuinely I believe channels like yours should be mandatory viewing for aspiring devs-if they're not approaching other games from this level of analysis already, then they're going to have a really difficult time solving problems with their systems over time. Thanks for making such great content and for helping me craft my own perspective on analysis!
I just finishd Inscryption and I loved how my rewards were adding new cards to my deck - or changing my cards, generally not making them stronger, but making them stranger, smarter. Even when the game was literally just increasing the stats of one of my cards, it came as part of a "there's a chance this card will be destroyed in the process" risk/reward mechanic, that could feel pretty tense.
And when that was getting stale, the game had moments showering me with narrative rewards, so I could piece out the story.
I think it's much harder to reward when all the player can do is defined by a handful of buttons. In a cardgame, since each card can be 'an action', this is easier and more satisfying.
Have you played Inscryption? Amazing game!
I personally believe the Dragon Age series is excellent at implementing good reasons to engage with most of the optional paths without making you so vastly overpowered (or vastly underpowered) for the main path. From story, to more party banter (which is top tier), to more unlocks for current and future playthroughs, and even optional companions. It just makes the world feel more alive as opposed to many other games with side content, personally speaking. Main reason why that series is easily my most played of any single player game outside more sandbox type titles.
23:15 don't worry, we won't try to stop you, in fact we encourage it
I personally feel like Dave the divers progression point is to help you divert your focus to the quest line rather than getting caught up in running the restaurant. There is a lot going on in the game and the fish farms help with the player being overwhelmed (also with the option to simply sell all the fish if you prefer to supply it yourself)
An idea for balancing optional content: Your optional content impacts the story in an optional way, causing the subsequent bosses to bolster their forces, better prepare for your arrival, or maybe it gave them the time they needed to complete a crucial part of their plan.
This naturally leads to players calling them Greed or True runs.
Oh, right, you mentioned it at the end with Hollow Knight haha
I still think Fallout 4 has one of the best progression and rewards systems of any game.
• Enemy scaling is determined to where they are on the map, so areas at the beginning will make you feel like a god after a few levels but the harder areas will still kick your butt until end game.
• Most loot is randomized but still useful, so when you get a unique reward it always feel great.
• There’s a lot of uses for armor and weapons that you may not want to wear. You can sell them for a good amount of caps, break them for their materials that may be hard to find, equip them to companions or settlers in your bases, or even just use them for decoration!
while I haven't put quite as much time into fallout 4, I actually feel similarly about skyrim, which makes sense.
To date its still one of the only games I've played where 'enemy scaling' didnt feel like dirty words. It uses similar regional scaling on top of some other tricks which I assume returned in fallout 4. Every enemy has their own level cap based on its type and they remain restricted to gear that's appropriate to have for their faction. The game also never phases the weaker enemy types out of the game entirely so you can still see how far youve come.
As for the rewards, you always come out of any dungeon with something of objective worth (more gold and skill xp) but probably also something that's entirely of subjective worth, which i think is a lot more fun! 'Sure this sword is useless, but I really like the way it looks so I'll display it.' 'Sure I wont ever use this shout in combat, but I can use it to do silly things out of combat.'
Big brain idea in case I never make a game with it myself, add hard containers to a game. They are optional content that makes cool things happen and/or gives extra story at certain times depending on how many you collect, but they do not help you at all. Instead, these hard containers do what they sound like, make the game harder.
Shoutout to the reward of getting better at the game! Which is very notable in competitive multiplayer games or for players who chase high scores/challenges/and speed runs.