Ey, so this video probably will make some people mad as it talks about some games that make people mad, so please be nice to each other and to me lol. In general though, lemme know what you think about frustration being used in games. When is too much? Should they avoid it entirely? Do you like when games piss you off? Is your name Gary?
Games should be able to be frustrating but should probably give players a way to skip frustrating parts when necessary to keep the game from becoming not fun anymore
I haven’t watch the video yet, but when I read the title, reaction was “no, never”. I legitimately think frustration is the one emotion that should never be involved in games (through gameplay). Edit: I just finished watching the video. I said above that frustration is the one feeling games should not involve, I mostly mean that in terms of “difficulty”. I can personally tolerate boredom and tedium. But I think it’s possible to make A game really hard without being frustrating, you just have to make it feel like it’s the players fault when they fail.
The biggest factor for me is time. When I was a kid and had infinite time to play, frustration was a fun challenge. Now as an adult with very limited game time, I don't want to waste that just getting frustrated with something during my break.
YES exaclty, on paper is nice to say frustation is important, but i play games to relax and have fun after a hard day, frustation will just make easier to me quit the game bc is not worth my time and energy
Same. I have like, practically 1 hour a day to play game and usually it's with my girlfriend. I don't want to play a frustrating game then end up being mad and ruining our time together.
I've known for a long time now that I'm in the minority of players that didn't mind Guarma. In fact, it has one of my favourite scenes in the entire story - "...You keep killin' folk, Dutch..."
Yeah, it’s a really great scene. I think that’s (and the point where Dutch feeds Brontë to the gator) the point where Arthur realizes Dutch is losing it.
It's so weird to me that Guarma, a substantial part of RDR2 that's incredibly immersive & does a TON for character development is thought of as "bad" by anyone. I couldn't take the rest of the video seriously after that.
I'm also in this minority. Really enjoyed that chapter because funnily enough it felt like a break from the main storyline, and it had that significant character development you mentioned.
I feel like frustration in games is like tension in music. There can't be resolution in music without tension, so songs that are all major or too simple are just boring. Similarly, games with little frustration rarely give you a sense of accomplishment when you beat them. However, songs with too much tension just sound dissonant and are not enjoyable to listen to, and if a game is much more frustration than reward it usually won’t be fun to play for the average player. Basically fine in small doses, but above that it depends more and more on the person and it’s harder to say the game is objectively good.
I don’t think frustration = challenge. Good games can be very, very challenging, but not frustrating. As long as the challenge is fair and well designed it won’t be frustrating, although that does depend somewhat on the player’s skill level.
@@tegelstenen4178 hahahaha I really feel what you're saying, but tension and release can come in many forms in music. Some songs may not have "good" harmonic or melodic resolutions, but it can also happen through intensity, tone, ambience and arrangement in general
@@joshuadaniels6455 As someone who has the Platinum for the original Dark Souls, I share your frustration. Anor Londo, The Duke's Archive, New Londo Ruins, The Tomb Of The Giants, and the Kiln Of The First Flame are guilty of having long runs between Bonfire and Boss. However, I didn't find the frustration unbearable as the distance was the worst part and the enemies are easy.
@@joshuadaniels6455 Yeah, having to run through the same area repeatedly to try the boss was tolerable on my normal playthrough, but crossed the line when I did a Soul Level 1 playthrough. Having to try Kalameet and Manus 30-40 times each and dying instantly to pretty much any attack (especially since the original console version couldn't hold a stable framerate), only to repeat the same 3 minute run back to the boss was definitely frustrating.
I don’t know if Guarma had that effect on me but it’s such a small section it didn’t really bother me that much anyway. I was more just confused by how pointless it seemed and slightly disappointed that I couldn’t explore the island and have a few good side quests. But the way you explain it that restriction makes sense in the long run. I was also shocked by how slow paced rdr2 was from the beginning, it was so different from pretty much any other AAA title. And I absolutely loved that slowness. It felt right for the atmosphere, the setting, the character.
In MGS3 there's a point where you climb up an incredibly long ladder, and a voice starts whispering the theme song of the game. This is immediately before everything goes batshit to %100, leading up to one of the best adrenaline packed action climaxes in gaming. It was a brief moment meant to let the llayer/audience breathe before finally going in for the big finale. Neither of these games invented this story telling technique(it's pretty much as old as fictional litersture) but I feel like rdr2 more or less wanted Guarma to be that sort of "breathing space" before the game goes into it's climactic descent. They more or less found a way to give you a breather, while still keeping the blood pumping with all the action still going on.
I love how uncompromising the game felt. In the sense that Rockstar didn’t care about appealing to the masses with a lot of their design decisions. Specifically chapter 1 and Guarma. And of course all the sim elements. They knew it wouldn’t click with a large group of people but they also knew it would REALLY click for some players. They knew they were taking a risk and I love that about Red Dead 2.
Guarma was kinda the prelude to ACT 3 For the gang. The beginning of the end... everything falling apart and you realizing that the dreams of Tahiti will never happen
@@captainkielbasa5471also, I feel like Guarma was the first time Arthur really saw Dutch for what he had become. When he killed the old lady wanting more gold, and Arthur asked Dutch if he’d kill him next… that’s when Arthur’s already wavering loyalty to Dutch came crashing down.
the first part of guarma is how your supposed to feel, your supposed to understand what arthur is feeling as he gets closer to an understanding of his own morality and how it should be treated to slow things down for yourself as things can get quickly out of control if you dont know how to handle them and how to move with life.
What makes the Guarma section seem intentional to me is that your feelings as the player mirror the feelings of Arthur. Feeling exhausted, disillusioned by the people (characters) around you, feeling apathetic to the things people (the game) are always pushing you to do, wanting time to take a breather and soak up the more simple pleasures of life (the game). You want me to say it?!?! FINE! It’s ludonarrative harmony!
@@mr.fufucudlypoops8207 for some reason my reply to your reply isn’t showing up. To understand what I mean simply look up the definition of dissonance. Specifically look for the antonyms of dissonance.
I just love taking the game slow even when I know the story mission is more important. I like to take breaks from heavy narritive parts and just relax by either side mission or mostly just explore and find new things. I love it when developers add those moments that focus on taking break like ones you mentioned about Hollow Knights benches where you can stop and reflect.
One thing! Just one thing! Please tell IT to me: WHY tf do I have so many fans even though no UA-camr is unprettier than I am? WORLDWIDE!!!! WHY??? Tell me, dear chi
I love that too, this is why, contrary to some people, I love when these moments are made to be integral to the game's narrative, when the game's story itself take pause from the tension to explore characters, the world, etc... like for example in the first Trails in the Sky, I just love when the story change constantly rythm. I usually dislike instead when stories in all medias just hit a point, often pretty early or mid story, where everything afterward is just a big rush to the ending with no time to ponder, know the characters better, or explore the world.
Having extreme ADHD I tend to have a habit of blazing through games and never being able to take it slow. For some reason, I was able to very much enjoy and have a very slow pace with this game and delve into just about every side quest possible. I never could articulate or understand what made me able to enjoy the slow pace of the game until now. Solid video all around
I have ADHD as well and I was actually apprehensive about starting Red Dead 2 because of that slowness. I worried that I'd become restless and not enjoy the game at all (or stop playing it immediately). I'm glad to hear it got the ADHD seal of approval. :)
@@SilentRuth10 ya I had a lot of fun with it you can play through as fast as you want but there are a lot of side mission like he mentioned and random events that make it interesting it’s kinda like minecraft in the way you gotta find stuff to do there’s plenty to do just gotta find it
@@wol9881 there’s always something to do, after I finished the game I wandered and spent all my money, having some of the hang around felt like “the good ol days” even tho we experienced the break up of the gang
I think Red Dead 2 is one of those kinds of games where you shouldn’t really play it like a normal video game. I went into it years after release, hearing all sorts of critiques about how slow it is, how strict the mission objectives are, and how generally tedious some animations and systems are. I think this put me in a mindset where I thought “If this is gonna be a slow old cowboy game, I’m gonna play it like a slow old cowboy”. I’ve very rarely role-played my character as hard as I did in this game, but I think doing so helped me enjoy this game far more than if I didn’t. I took the game really slowly. Hunting, gambling, and exploring between almost every single mission. Usually I try to beat games fairly quickly, but I took my time with Red Dead 2 and enjoyed every second of it. Quiet moments at night sitting around the campfire, watching the sunset reflect off the ocean, sitting down by a cabin surrounded by snow-tipped trees, watching lightning rip through the sky from a mountain ranger’s outpost. These slow, quiet moments are the ones I remember the most from Red Dead 2, and the ones I don’t think many other games will give me.
It's a cowboy simulator, rewarding taking as much time as possible in doing thing. If you try playing it like other games, ticking off objective boxes, it'll get tedious and frustrating. Most of the events are dynamic too so you'll never find them if you fast travel and don't spend time away from missions.
I appreciate that and agree with that being the games intended Way to play the problem is that it is blatantly disrespectful of your time Even enjoying those same types of moments I still fell off the game because if I wasn’t in the mood for that and wanted to just play some missions it was incredibly tedious. Long treks through empty stretch’s or tediously slow animations to skin animals. Or after finishing a shoot out going to loot corpses and everyone I woke up to when I click the button to loot Arthur has to “Stop, turn, walk directly over the body, crouch down, rummage through their pockets, get back up.” All these things that were done to be “realistic in a cinematic way” eventually wore down on me and just pushed me away from giving the game anymore time because it’s not just a long game is actively makes a point to waste your time on even the SMALLEST interactions.
Not only that, but also made Arthur realize that Dutch was stringing them along - showing that the reason they were fighting and saving money for (a tropical paradise) was a nonsensical lie.
@@c_42 i feel dutch was authentic at one point about Tahiti, but as time went on. He became more and more jaded and paranoid from mikah twisting him. Trying to make him think he was surrounded by doubters and naysayers, when he was used to a family.
@@Dracossaint For real, the loss of Hosea as a voice of reason really messed things up. Also the return from Guarma, that slow horse ride with Unshaken playing in the background
The first time I ever realized a game was purposely trying to frustrate me it was Hotline Miami. It's been a few years since I've played it but there was a level where your character ends up in a hospital and because the character is injured and maybe a little crazy the game completely shifts into this hard to control, annoying and dizzying hospital level; where you have to escape the hospital while dealing with the questions the kinda confusing story has set. I remember being really annoyed with it but as a 13 year old it was the first time I went "Oh this is 100% intentional but I don't think I like it."
Yeah that section is definitely annoying as hell the first time through but once you learn that if you walk for too long Jacket holds his head and stands still so you just have to walk in bursts. Definitely the weakest level by far and really only serves narrative purpose tho.
@@xDeadlyWarriorX Just don't ever criticize games or compel developers to hone their craft! That's a really healthy and productive mindset to be in! /s
@@ziwuri I am not criticizing the developers - I am critizing the developer's bosses, you dummy. The developers have no fault in this, it's the directive/manager section of the company that are too much of a mercenaries and do not give a shit about what devs/analysts say regarding the status of a project.
The best frustration in RDR 2 was in the city of Saint Denis. I found it frustrating to move around in and explore as there were too many people and the streets were small, with sharp corners. However, it made me appreciate the wild country much more than I had before, which I'm guessing was intentional so you could connect with Arthur's feelings of hate towards civilisation and the city in general
I think it was intentionality made like that as it was kind of the nightmare the gang were trying to stop and prevent. Thats why they made it a pain to traverse I believe
not to mention that looking at someone wrong in Saint Denis would lead to a shoot out and ultimately either having to escape the area or dying which was just a microcosm of the world they lived in, being hunted across the country, having to watch their backs at every turn, but if they played the part (like when Dutch and Arthur worked for the police or the whole Rhodes storyline) then they could go about their life as 'normal'
Roanoke has this feeling as well. It’s definitely more tricky to traverse since it’s all steep cliffs and trees, making it hard to zip through a straight line on horseback. And it makes sense that this is Rdr2’s final camp location before the epilogue
There is an extremely thin line between "frustratingly challenging" and "frustratingly f*ck this game." When you start feeling like it's the games fault why you're failing, that's when tension becomes frustration, and frustration quickly turns into resounding disappointment.
True! Just finished Metroid dread and aside from literally 1 room with a prick of a robot, where you can I ly move slowly through water, it's all really well crafted challenge. Every boss I died to, it was blatantly obvious where I fucked up.
Mmm I kind of like when I wanna punch a wall in the middle of a game ( maradaur fight in doom eternal) it made me feel so good when I finally beat him.
Yeah i don’t want to be tortured by the games mechanics. If it’s clearly do-able however I will keep attempting it cuz it’s my own personal fault for sucking. Not the games
Your section in The Last Guardian totally resonated with me. I remember complaining the entire game about Trico and how frustrating the gameplay was, and then the ending was so beautiful I cried and I was sad to leave the world. I didn’t even realize how much connection was being built in those hard moments
"I think there's a lot of value in trying to understand why people both love and hate a specific thing" It's lines like these that are I love this channel. The things you say and questions you pose, while they are about gaming, are often extrospective. They do more than look into games and discover what makes them good or bad. It takes a step back and looks at the video game medium as an art style rather than just a few hours of fun. it is okay for video games to be frustrating because art can sometimes be frustrating.
Oh yeah, I agree that the choice was a great one. They got under my skin in such an annoying way, and I am pretty much positive that is what Rockstar wanted.
@@razbuten Oh, thanks for the reply! Love your content :D And yes, it did the same to me, but as you said, I guess that was the idea behind hahaahahaha
It also gave Bill and Javier a stronger belief in Dutch. I mean, Javier being saved in such a grave situation, had to affect Javier- it's after Guarma Javier turns into more of an asshole instead of funny and charming. For Bill it was Dutch doing what he promised them- geting back to mainland, which seemed impossible. But he pulled it off.
I have the same feelings on the Guarma section. It was empty and tedious and it made me avoid the story missions-and I think that was absolutely the point. It drives you, as the player, to put yourself in Arthur's shoes. You stop caring about the end goal and you go off into the wilderness to live a new life. The slow, meditative moments after Guarma are what I remember the game for. Rarely have I developed such a personal connection with a character.
After the Guarma chapter is a good example of juxtaposition, made you appreciate something when it has a mirror facing it, or have it in a "Different " light
I felt so miserable in Guarma that I wanted to return to the states as quickly as possible. But that misery was part of the story of the game, and because I was so immersed in it I felt exactly how Arthur would have felt.
Interestingly enough, I think I'm less okay dealing with games that are designed to be frustrating than I am dealing with games that become frustrating the more I push their features to their limits. I think its probably due to the fact that I have more control over my experience that way.
I guess once you engage so much with a game, that you want to push its features to their limits, you actively choose experience frustration with the goal of overcoming limits. That's a very different mindset from just playing a game casually and then being forced to do some frustrating task without any desire to do so. Makes sense that there is a big difference there.
@@Drekromancer I enjoyed the 7 hours I spent in path of pain, but I couldn't beat the pantheon of hallow nest because it takes too long and I have to start from the beginning, Beating 5 stages of Zote was more fun the pantheon 5
I personally think that's just Expectation vs Reality. When you've heard that Darksoul would be difficult and then you played it and actually finds it difficult, you felt sort of 'relief'.
It's forced empathy and that will genuinely be hard to swallow. In fact the larger a connection someone had with Joel the worse that kind of thing will affect them, i.e. the more empathic you are the worse it is. Sometimes you want that black and white world view in a situation because the outcome mattered to you.
It just makes me more frustrated tbh, they had some great ideas that could have resulted in a masterpiece if executed well but just came across way too emotionally manipulative which coupled with the glacial pacing ruined it for me.
@@vault29a The man is so insecure about his game tastes he needs to throw highschooler insults the moment he sees someone level basic criticism against a video game they like. Sure Im the one most likely to be crying here we all believe you buddy.
Well, I'm not sure about that. I feel like if a 40-50 hour title is supposed to be frustrating, then that's great. Like Death Stranding for example. It frustration is what makes the game relaxing and satisfying. If you've played the game you'll know what i mean. But is a game isn't supposed to be slow and frustrating, like RDR2, it can really ruin a game
9:33 I just love how here you’re describing how a certain type of player wouldn’t be able to get past the frustration but to my Dark Souls lensed perspective the clip you showed was of someone getting extremely lucky and not falling to their death.
Also, from what I can remember, in Dark Souls you can roll while on the floor to get up faster (or when you're standing up). So the player actually gave up to easily and didn't take the obstacle seriously (and he's still alive).
When it comes to Guarma, I felt pretty similarly the first time around. I was even taken aback, because the story was so good up to that point, and Guarma had felt like an excuse to extend the runtime of the game, and not in meaningful way (think the whole Casino planet fiasco from The Last Jedi). I was itching to get back. I hated not having my guns, not having my horse, and not being around characters I liked. But thats why I think it worked. Because anything we as the player felt, Arthur felt it doubled. Its a more subtle way of becoming closer to the player character then forcing us to play through their backstory, as TLOU2 did. We didnt need to be spoon fed Arthur’s frustration, because we were already feeling it. And further, I think the chapter as whole is a reflection on Arthur’s frustration with Dutch, and feeling trapped with him. Even the missions (which may have felt pointless and boring to some; I personally enjoyed sinking the ship, that was awesome), are a reflection of Arthur’s frustration because he’s probably thinking the same thing we are: Why the hell am I running around a Godforsaken island? Because of Dutch. Arthur’s lack of trust in Dutch begins here, and is only accelerated after he finds out about his TB. I only realized this after the game, as well. I still think that maybe there could have been a better way to do it, although I cant say I know how. But replaying the game and getting to the section was much more enjoyable the 2nd time. And of course, the return from Guarma gave us one of the best scenes in the game, along with that phenomenal soundtrack. Anyways, in short, I believe that frustration should be using sparingly, unless your whole game is used for that exact purpose. Its a difficult field to travel as developer because gamers are so picky these days (whether we admit it or not). We have high standards so there’s a lot of balancing needed. Honestly, how frustration is used depends on the game, and whether or not you play it for fun, for a cinematic experience, or for a bit of both.
This is such an insightful analysis of Guarma and Arthur's character, I never thought of some of this stuff but it's so spot-on. I liked these two lines the most: "I think the chapter as whole is a reflection on Arthur’s frustration with Dutch, and feeling trapped with him." & "...he’s probably thinking the same thing we are: Why the hell am I running around a Godforsaken island? Because of Dutch."
You saying R* tricked me into wanting to get that Majestic Deer ending by making me frustrated at the story mission NPCs? If so, that's brilliant because that widow in the woods, and the old army vet by the lake.. those are good memories.
I had a similar experience to your own with rdr2 when I played ghost of tsushima. At the start of the game I fought most enemies head on because it was the best, and often only, method of dispatching enemy groups. However, as the game progressed, I realized that I was doing it less and less because the new tools I was being given were just too powerful. Why spend time getting the parry times right when I could just headshot them with the bow, or immediately knock them down with a bomb or poison them. This dawned on me around act 3 and I thought it was super cool how the gameplay organically incentivized me to change playstyle to match Jin's tranformation into the ghost, precisely because it wasn't something the game spelled out for me. It just slowly happened. It made the moments when Jin was confronted resonate so much more with me because it WAS true. Jin had gone from a samurai to an assassin during my gameplay and so I was right there with him during those story scenes. It was a change we both shared. Now, as you said, stuff like this is murky. It could have been a happy accident that happened because the balance for these new tools was off. You could very well argue that making the melee combat almost obsolete is bad design. Still, that realization and connection with the story was very memorable for me. Stuff like this is what sets videogames apart, where the interactive part of it directly enhances the product's other aspects. Its something that devs should actively strive to pull off with their games imo
Yeah I had a similar experience. I initially wanted to be the honorable samurai so I tried to fight every fight head on. As I got further on I just couldn’t keep up and found my overrun by the mongol horde. I slowly began to use stealth more and I eventually embraced it whole heartedly.
@@espnky1 i tried to go head on because i found it more challenging, and thus fun. The stealth in that game is ridicilously easy, and that's the point i think
I felt opposite of him, the only difference was I didn't stop. Every stranger mission I felt obliged to complete. and I did, but after a while, stranger missions get boring. I should've gone in cycles, but when it came to Guarma, I finally got a rest from stranger missions, so for me, Guarma felt like relief, and I finally got back into the cycle of doing actual story missions, so it was fun for me. I enjoyed the surprise, although on the account of every single one of Dutch's robberies gone wrong, I went into the boat idea somewhat knowing in the back of my mind it was going to sink.
I was literally telling my husband last night that one of my favorite things about the modern Frogwares Sherlock Holmes games is how quickly they let you skip through the mandatory minigames. But the trick there is that I'm not going to Sherlock Holmes for a lockpicking minigame or a shoe shining minigame, I'm going to solve mysteries. The game forces you to play the actual mystery solving, but lets you skip just about everything else if you wait long enough, which is great because then I don't get stuck on some stupid action set piece while playing a mystery game. L.A. Noire did this too. I think it's fair to let people skip parts that aren't central to the experience. In open world games most of that stuff becomes side activities, but in more linear games where you'd get stuck at a stupid unpickable lock, you should be able to skip.
I think the add those skips knowing not everyone can do them to boot, its basically a logic puzzle that for some, might tickle their fancy. But the market for these games are usually the more casual variety that aren't try-hard puzzle tacklers.
The thing is, not all this minigames are just CHORES, and some may grant you exitments snd persoectives in life you may never feel otherwise. That is mostly why "hardcore" players as you may call them dont want skips, sometimes it detract to experience people may have because they are not force to do it. Like life, why really learn a skill when you can just "learn it"? Does it make it worth it? Journy vs Goal kind of deal.
I think Guarma is suppose to make you feel homesick and appreciate the world of Rdr2 more. Even Arthir says he is homesick which is how they want the player to feel. (They want the player to feel the same as Arthur and they do that well here)
Well there's also frustration from wildly untested RNG or "allies" getting in the way of anything you're trying to do (like shooting a legendary you're trying to collect in the face).
I think something like that can be classified as "unintentional frustration", or something the developers didn't intend to do. And those are almost always unequivocally bad.
Embracing the slow pace completely revolutionized RDR2 for me. My first run, when I was, well... *running* through the game. Yeah, slowing things down was tedious. But I replayed recently. And embraced the immersion. Little things, like leading my horse down valentines main drag instead of mashing A. Surveying a gang camp with binoculars from the wood line before going in. Stopping and split pointing my bullets. Basically, playing it like it's a movie I'm watching instead of like gta cowboy. It took it from one of my favorite games, to my absolute favorite game.
As long as there is moments of relief between the tension then it's fine, kind of like working your way towards a boss fight. A game that does this well is hades. Even though you lose over and over again it isn't frustrating knowing that you're going to get stronger each time. I feel like if you don't get a time to relax you'll get burn out quickly from a overly frustrating game.
As a sidenote, the limit for frustration is at vastly different places for different types of players and the more hardcore among us would do well to remember that. There are some players who will never enjoy a roguelike or roguelite even if it's as well designed as Hades.
Honestly, I had this problem with Bloodborne. It just felt too frustrating, like there was no payoff or feeling of progression. Sure, I could keep trying to kill Father Gascoigne and the other bastards outside his arena but he's wiped the floor with me several times over, and the game's not going to get easier from that point onwards, not to mention I literally have no other gear to buy to try a different approach. So, I just never really played it again. Too much frustration with no payoff, in my eyes.
I absolutely love listening to people talk about the relationship between games and the people who play them. I'm always looking forward to your uploads because of this. Thanks for the content!
you PERFECTLY explained my feeling returning to the normal map after escaping guarma. i took the longest time continuing story missions and really took the time to enjoy moments with arthur, my horse and the beautiful world. i have the nicest memories playing the game just roaming around and chilling.
I can respect that. For me though, I'm a Geometry Dash player and beating a single extreme demon can take up to litteral months and hours of playing and failing. But then finally getting that 1 attempt where you beat that level is amazing. That feeling of having beaten such a difficult level, the feeling of this journey finally being over feels absolutely incredible. And that is what drives me and a lot of other people forward. But then again, don't play something you don't enjoy :)
I feel it's important to acknowledge the difference between narrative frustration and mechanical frustration (which may be for a narrative reason). Last of Us part 2 was narrative frustration, Dark Souls is mechanical frustration.
I really like how you’re putting this, I mod the heck out of skyrim to make is as tough and realistic as the game can be, the cold can kill you, the combat is unforgiving and the story missions are very hard. So after a couple main missions I just walk around for a while, I have fast travel turned off at all times so wandering is very calming, and I often find good side quests that I didn’t know about before and I’m actually invested in them because I’m not so worried about getting through it I just experience it. I also can have multiple followers but sometimes I choose to have none which somehow makes thing easier to take in and enjoy. And with how difficult I’ve made the game I’m at level 18 and I’ve only been to 3 of the holds. I have so much exploring ahead of me and it feels very large, which makes taking it is small bits so important
I'm kinda surprised there wasn't a Celeste reference in this one. One of my all time favorites but I'll be the first to admit it's intentionally frustrating and the game uses the frustration as a motif in its storytelling.
Gotta disagree with you there. I don't think Celeste is intentionally frustrating at all. It's difficult sure, but it's fair and the controls are some of the tightest and most responsive in any platformer. Deaths are quick and you don't lose much progress even in the worst instances. I'd argue Celeste goes out of its way to not be frustrating at all.
@@drfoto2673 On top of that there are accessibility options so if you want to bypass all the mechanical frustration and enjoy the narrative you can do that.
@@drfoto2673 The mirror temple is literally designed to invoke feelings of anxiety and frustration through its mechanics. Just because a game has tight controls and good respawns doesn't mean the game can't have frustration. Mario maker has good controls as well, but damn you get a choose a door level it sucks. Obviously, celeste isn't choose a door, but it's challenging design can have frustration in it. The thing is that celeste lets you deal with the frustration in bursts (small sections to pass per checkpoint as you said) and at your own pace (get the strawberries or don't. Get the b sides or don't. Use the assist features or don't). There definently is frustration, but just because there is frustration doesn't mean the game is bad for it.
@@lifetake3103 Celeste is not designed to be frustrating to play, regardless of that being a theme used in the game. It's designed to be challenging. And it gradually ramps up that challenge rather well, with tons of optional strategies and side paths to take. Frustration only comes from the player's inability to learn, but that's not part of the design in the same way as it is in the Dark Souls games. Mario Maker troll levels is a completely different thing, where pick-a-door situations are usually just bad design. But in most of those you find out what to do once you've done it once or twice, so there's no massive amounts of repeat tries. That's a different type of level, which may or may not be frustrating by design.
AAA games have a real problem with churning out bland, easy to digest games over and over again, so when one takes an artistic risk, we need to encourage them--even if we don't like the particular risk taken--for the sake of diversifying the medium.
@Tom Ffrench Risk-taking should come with the assumption that the developers have faith that their idea is more than just a gimmick, though of course sometimes risks are used mainly for marketing material (style over substance)
I had the opposite happen, I was constantly exploring and helping everyone I met to the point the amidiate area was running low on quests. Guarma made refocus on the story as it took center stage while on my 2nd time around it made dread because i knew that after that island it's only gonna go down hill
It's interesting to me that in some cases, games that explicitly centre around frustration (e.g. Getting Over It)... calm me down. They bring a sense of serenity with them. Perhaps this relates to the specific _kind_ of frustration or the mechanics that induce it, but I'm still not quite sure exactly why. I don't _like_ feeling frustrated, but I still like playing Getting Over It. Maybe part of it is that failure is expected. It's a place to fail in peace, rather than in hectic, high-stakes real life situations. That's my hypothesis, anyway. But it feels therapeutic and helps me de-stress, and reminds me that failing isn't the end of the world. As long as you're happy with the effort you put in, the result doesn't always matter.
Like Death Stranding, even though it may be frustrating sometimes, what people don't realise, is that that's the point, it's meant to be frustrating. And I a way, that's kinda what makes it relaxing.
Even though I may not always agree with creator and dev decisions, I like when they take some risks. It means I’m not being given a reskin of the first game. I would much rather devs be creative and design with care than for them to dispassionately slap together a game.
as an avid celeste player one of the reasons it’s my favorite game of all time is beating those frustrating sections and the relief that comes afterwards is addicting
You put it really well that it is entirely on what works for the individual, and whether the personal satisfaction outweighs the frustration. Personally I find the satisfaction of beating any given boss in most Souls games to be so fleeting that the frustration often isnt worth it personally.
100% agree it’s on a subjective level, and respect to you for recognizing it’s not your cup of tea instead of demanding it change to suit you as seems to be the trend now.
An indie game that I think uses mechanical frustration amazingly is Rain World. Through not giving players a clear goal from the beginning and making the act of exploration fun yet difficult, it allows players to just experiment with the janky movement and combat systems. The goal is to make an experience wherein players slowly transition from reactionary prey to goal-oriented predator, which I think is best accomplished by giving the primary systems a high skill floor, and an even higher skill ceiling. If you consider yourself a particularly patient person, I think Rain World is definitely worth playing.
I found it too mechanically inconsistent to really enjoy. Not in a way that you'd get better at when you play enough, but one you learn to cope with the bad stuff when you're experienced enough. I don't think that's good game design. I prefer a harder challenge but with more consistent game mechanics. Rain World is more frustrating and uncomfortable than hard and challenging.
@@AnotherDuck I can understand your reaction to the game, it's personally one of my favourite games but I recognise it has a glaring failure. I'm guessing at least some of the frustration you got out of the game came from it not teaching you certain essential game mechanics, the three it should have explained were 1: Swapping hands by double-tapping grab 2: Safely dropping items by pressing down+grab 3: How to roll after landing by holding down+left/right after a fall higher than your jump I've seen far too many people not understand why their slugcat decides to roll into the abyss for seemingly no reason, and that's entirely the game's fault for not explaining it. Other than these not being taught I think the movement and such is fantastic, but I can understand if other factors, like white lizards or swimming or the always annoying _getting killed right as you move to a new room,_ could be deal breakers.
Keep in mind that more than 90% of what was planned for Guarma ended up being cut out in the final game. The playing area of Guarma was originally going to be much much larger
One thing I love about playing games is a feeling of satisfaction of clearing something hard- and when I get too frustrated at something, that feeling of satisfaction goes away. I don't know what it is, it should be the other way around, but after something that truly frustrated me, my reaction to clearing it is more like 'thank god that's over' and not 'yes, I finally did it'.
I feel that, I think there is definitely a lack of sliding reward system when it comes to frustration. I know I have been there when you finally beat a level after 20 times of trying only to be given a small potion and 50g and sent on your way back into the story. Like thanks, that did nothing for me. Im looking at Halo 3 and call of Duty when you ramp up the difficulty to hardened or Insane and it just turns into a pit of frustration without any real payoff
As someone who loves challenging platformers, I absolutely agree with frustration building an emotional connection. There's a sense of deep satisfaction from seeing all of your hard work pay off that isn't possible without the entire emotional roller coaster that comes before it. Love is built on a foundation of complex emotions and deep understanding, so games that embrace inspiring both negative and positive emotions in players, while they won't work for everyone, at least have the potential to be truly meaningful to some.
The good kind of frustration is something like you dying in a side mission or a rougelike and saying “Oh, shit.” Then still going back and trying again with what you learned. The bad kind of frustration is dying seven times the same way or doing the same thing twenty times and just putting the game down.
@@kevinz8554 That is often frustrating. You're spending a lot of effort without getting anywhere. Usually that involves luck or some very precise challenge that even getting a lot better doesn't help a lot.
Frustration in mechanics is something I can't tolerate, but I'm open to being provoked by a narrative direction I may disagree with. I played GTA 4 in 2020, and although I recall my difficulty with shooting and driving as negative elements, the dissonance in tone with other Grand Theft Auto games was staggering, and Niko is an easily favored protagonist in that series for me. That's why I want to replay The Last of Us Part 2: to form my own sentiments based on the experience I had, instead of being influenced by others. This is the third video that's been recommended to me, but the first I've commented on that I didn't abandon or delete (yet). I found what you said about TLOU2 compelling. In fact, I'm currently writing an essay comparing the reception the game received, and your mention of it stirred feelings I didn't know I had. Thanks.
I take it you've seen all three TLOU2-videos by Girlfriend Reviews? If not, you should. They're worthy of an essay on how the game was received in and of themselves. (Especially the last one, about how they got threatened by TLOU2-haters.)
I didn't find GTA IV frustrating at all. Sure, everything is a lot 'heavier' than in the PS2 games, and even than in GTA V. But it is still not frustrating in the way that RDR2 is imo.
Surprising that you didn’t talk about the roots of video games themselves. Games used to be intentionally difficult and frustrating because old systems didn’t have the capabilities to play large games so they took their games that would take a half hour to beat and made them intentionally difficult so they would take hours
I think one of the problems with frustration in games is that when intentionally(?) implemented most of the time is unavoidable, that's why having customizable difficulty (like Pathologic 2 if I'm not mistaken) and assist modes is probably the best way to handle it The other problem is that "breaking" the game experience as designed is VERY unsettling for a lot of people, so even when the tools are there to begin with people won't use them anyway, and some of them would even try to shame anyone who uses them
I'm a huge advocator for having options. I understand that balancing a game in its normal state is already hard, and few games actually implement difficulty options well, but at the very least it's more accessible than excluding it altogether. My take is, if someone is dead-set on playing a game "exactly as intended", they can just go to the options menu and hit "Default".
@@sanfransiscon I'm not talking about purists, I'm talking about people who would use these options but ultimately don't because they feel like would "spoil" the game iykwim
My favourite thing about TLOU2, is actually one of the things i most hear about the game when people are talking negative things about it, the pacing and length of the game. For me it actually made me appreciate the lives of the two main characters more, how awful and painful they were and how if they could have an easy fix for their sanity, they would take it in a heartbeat, i kinda was in the same mindset as them, i mean the game literally made me lose sleep and it gave me a huge headache but i only came to realization of it all when Ellie was crying on the beach looking at the fog, when it suddenly hit me, that i felt like the characters, that i had this huge weight on me and i was finally ready to be free of it, like Abby already had realized that and now Ellie was also ready and that is when it became my favourite game ever because it was willing to torture me and put me on the same level as the characters.
Generally, if a game is sufficiently pissing me off, I'll usually just drop it. I get enough frustration from Real Life without needing to experience it from my games too.
@@wonderlustking1306 I'm sorry; were you expecting me to express my take on the topic with needless extra words, when what I said feels like it suffices just fine? Is there some unwritten clause saying any video I comment on has to be as drawn out as the video is? Not sure I'm getting you.
@@Philip027 I don't completely agree with your original comment. But this reply is 100% justified and accurate, you have ever right to think that & your opinion doesn't even contradict the narrative of the video.
yeah but i would say there is a difference and a decent gap between fustrating and pissing me off. I can and do enjoy frustating games but if it exceeds the limit and pisses me off im done.
In my opinion, Snowrunner is a game that uses frustration as a "feature" quite well. Completing a delivery after battling through mud, water and snow is very satisfying
I get why some people like it but how the hell can you enjoy a game where you drive a vehicle slowly because driving into the wrong puddle can ruin the truck you were driving. The only reason i play car games, and i don't even play them often, is to go fast and feel like i am driving at insane speeds.
I feel this way about Skyward Sword. Even though the motion controls and other aspects can be frustrating, I found it all the more rewarding when I finished the game because of that struggle
On more mechanical level, frustration can also push players to engage with game's systems in order to remove source of frustration - both serving as organic tutorial and giving satisfaction of solving a problem they experienced. Factorio handles it quite well - you unlock automation around the time crafting everything manually becomes slow, you unlock bots and ability to copy-paste designs when building becomes tedious, you gain ability to trivialize enemies completely at a point when they shift from being challenge to being an annoyance.
Hi Raz! Frustration is absolutely worth it when it is purposely designed to make the player feel that particular emotion, not because of the gameplay or a particular mechanic, but because the story chose to make you feel that way, especially with the Last of Us 2. As you said, it is why I can't stop thinking about it a full year later. Love it or hate it, for anyone who has played TLOU2 to completion, they absolutely will not forget it. Frustration as a difficulty is also worth it. Maybe not as players grow older and have to work long hours and come home to what is meant to be a brief escape, but definitely for people who enjoy a challenge. And when a challenge strikes the balance between difficult and rewarding, you inevitably end up with masterpieces such as Cuphead, Celeste, and the Souls games. Where I draw the line with frustration, is tedium. Games as a medium are supposed to be fun - and fun can be pure enjoyment (Mario Odyssey), wonder and amazement (Breath of the Wild), and unpredictability and emotional connection (as you mention with specific characters in games like The Last of Us 2, and The Last Guardian). Tedium in games like Death Stranding serve no purpose. You're not having fun, you're not accomplishing much by means of challenge, and you're definitely not on an emotional rollercoaster. So you're left with? Frustration. Huge fan of your videos Raz, you're part of the reason I started a UA-cam channel myself, so thank you for the content you upload.
One of my favorite moments from Borderlands 2 and one that always springs to mind whenever I think about it comes about halfway through the game. You return to the town of Sanctuary, your home base, after a story mission. And all of a sudden, the town is under attack by an orbital bombardment from the Hyperion Corporation. With no other option, your companion Lilith decides to use her Siren magic powers to get the town airborne and teleport it out of harm's way. However, during this you, the player, end up warped outside of Sanctuary and witness it being teleported away... without you on board. Your base, where you keep all your best loot in the vault and where you can buy upgrades, is just gone. All that remains is a smoldering crater in the ground where Sanctuary once stood, and a marker on your map in an unknown region where your companion on the radio says you can find a teleporter that can get you back to Sanctuary's new airborne location. So all you can do is take one last look at that crater, turn right around and walk back to the beginning areas of the game, summon a car, and start the long drive to that new marker on your map. I just never understood why I remembered this moment so fondly until now.
I like your distinction between short-term, Type 1 Fun, and long-term or more retrospective Type 2 Fun. I think this also applies to most other things in life: some things or activities offer you short-term fun and gratification without necessarily contributing to some higher goals, whereas other things may be dull, repetitive, or strenuous, yet they lay the foundation for gratification in the future that is potentially more meaningful than most of the Type 1 Fun. Activities like reading non-fiction books, learning a new language, or simply doing your daily chores may not be fun or even frustrating in the moment, but I now that I will eventually experience Type 2 Fun and that this feeling will (hopefully) outweigh all the Type 1 Fun I missed out on along the way. So, when it comes to gaming, I think it depends on your motivation for playing a particular game. I don't have as much time as I used to have for gaming, therefore I am seldom willing to invest countless hours in a title like Dark Souls which, for the most part, only offers frustration, when what I am actually looking for in my scarce playing time is some light-hearted fun or a captivating yet non-challenging story. At the same time, I can definitely understand the value of suffering your way through Dark Souls in order to be rewarded with an achievement that you truly earned. Luckily, there are games for all types of players, and I am totally fine with not being offered an Easy Mode for Dark Souls-although this might mean that I will never get around to play the game, I know that it ensures that other people have some of the most memorable moments in their gaming career.
@@mechanomics2649 I know what you mean, yet I think the very essence of Dark Souls is inextricably linked to its inherent difficulty. After all, many games have various difficulty levels, including hard modes which can be immensely challenging, but in most cases, the experience of playing the game is roughly the same, only harder as well as more demanding and/or time-consuming. Dark Souls, on the other hand, (although I have to admit that I only have second-hand knowledge about it, derived mostly from UA-cam essays) centers entirely around the intense frustration and subsequent equally intense feeling of reward and gratification, a principle that influences all aspects of the game from the gameplay to the lore and the world design. Thus, I think that an Easy Mode-even if you don't choose it-would alter both the game design and your experience and would have certainly prevented Dark Souls from obtaining its notoriety, cult following, and cultural standing as one of the best games of the last decade.
@@VallisYT Coming from someone who has beaten DS3 and Bloodborne I think playing those games on an easy mode would definitely take away from the overall experience. Because the story itself in those games is pretty confusing, vague and hard to follow. Not saying its bad, its actually very interesting once you understand it, but a long youtube summary video is pretty much the only way most players will have any idea whats going on. So if you could play a Soulsborne game like its a generic, mindless hack n slash what are you really left with? Not to mention half the reason people bother learning about the lore in those games is because theyve built such an emotional connection with game through the difficult gameplay. I personally didnt quite get that same level of an emotional connection with them because I didnt find them quite as hard as people hype them up to be. Definitely still amazing games though.
@@VallisYT See, the problem there is that to a lot of people a Dark Souls easy mode would be just as challenging but rewarding to play for them as the base game is to you. Not everyone starts out with the same skill in gaming or experience, or are even physically capable of playing at the same rate.
Ahhhh I’m so bummed you didn’t mention Doom Eternal! Hugo Martin (the creative director) has a ton of great videos talking about the importance of tastefully frustrating the player
Yo, I know this comment is old, but could you help me locate some of these videos, maybe even with timestamps? I'm really curious what he has to say about the subject.
@@asbjrnmikkelsen7164 Check out NoClip documentaries. They interviewed Martin and Marty when both games came out. And there is also a podcast on their second channel with Hugo Martin, where he speaks more about the development.
There’s only one issue I had with rdr2 that I found extremely annoying. The inventory settings and the games failure to remember outfits, and weapons I’ve picked off my horse, I want to have my 2 custom pistols and my custom shotgun, and honestly that’s it cause that’s how I role played my guy, unless I needed a repeater or long rifle I would always pick the shotgun, but the game usually ignores these choices and seemingly randomly picks weapons for you. All this cool detail of you being able to switch from rifle to pistol and pull weapons from your horse feels like a waste when the game will just ignore it most of the time
I were all over mastering frustrating games in younger days, but not as an adult. Frustrating games is just waste of time for me nowadays. Doesn't help that there is way too many new games.
To me, The Last Guardian wasn't frustrating. I didn't feel like I was fighting the game or the AI, I was feeling like I was making a bond with a creature as afraid of everything as I was. I felt like I was helping a big, fuzzy cat overcome its fears, while it would help me out. We needed each other, and all that was needed was just a bit of patience to understand.
Apparently the way Trico's AI works he also becomes more responsive as you take care of him and he slowly starts to trust you (which makes sense), removing spears and calming him down, finding food... so players who refuse to engage with the game on its own terms and just expect it to obey at once like a robot instead of a living breathing creature with wants and needs are going to have a worse experience. It's kind of like complaining Dark Souls is unfair while refusing to use the mechanics it gives you to fight more effectively. But yeah, brilliant wonderful game, a misunderstood masterpiece.
I was an assistant manager for GameStop when The Last Guardian came out. As a huge Shadow of the Colossus fan, I’d been awaiting its release for years and I absolutely loved it. When it went on sale to $20, at some point in 2017 I recommended it to a customer who asked for recommendations on games I liked and two genres he gave me were puzzle games and platformers. He was also looking for less expensive PS4 titles, so I thought it might be a good fit and told him about the game. As I later found out, he rather angrily told one of my coworkers that I recommend terrible titles, said I’d probably never even played any “good” games before (if I’d even played ‘The Last Guardian’ at all lmao), and someone should “have a talk with her because clearly she doesn’t understand video games and is bad at her job.” He also recommended firing me (to someone under me, funnily enough, as he didn’t know my position). *Clearly* this dude had bigger issues past not liking the game from the other comments about “fake girl gamers” he made to my coworker, but it still bewilders me to this day how people seem to think their opinion is the only one that matters. It’s totally fine for him to not like the game, but that doesn’t mean other people can’t. If you want to bond with Trico, you will, and the game does an incredible job in letting you do so. However, if you _don’t_ bond with Trico, the game also takes that into account and he stays untrustworthy of you - I think it’s brilliant.
@ashy There's definitely a lot more movement and a need for other tactics besides just shooting, but still I wish there were non-lethal options you could take and they could weave your combat choices into the narrative.
TLoU2 does nothing narratively that can't have been done in a film or a TV series. Heck, that game is constantly criticised for its ludonarrative dissonance between the story and the gameplay (with how Ellie's doubts about killing aren't even close to being reflected in gameplay). There are, were, and will be so many better examples of games being art. They don't need to look like something Hollywood would churn out to be a meaningful experience.
@ashy Maybe. I know nothing about RDR2 and frankly, I don't care for it (I find open world games draining in general) so I'm reserving my judgements on it. That's what the game is _supposed_ to be about. But then she ends up second-guessing herself about whether she should actually kill the people she wants to get a revenge on even though in gameplay, she shows no remorse in brutally and graphically murdering anyone who stands in her way. And to my knowledge, the story never addresses the gameplay actions and instead just chugs along, saying what it wants to say. In a game where your story is basically everything, that's kind of a problem and it's why I think TLoU2 just should've been a movie or a TV series and not risk dealing with such problems.
I tend to play a lot of games at once, and if I get tired of a game I'll usually just drop it. However, sometimes I think back to the games I played _before_ I really considered myself a gamer. Back when I only played a game or two a year (sometimes less often than that) every game stuck with my so much more. Doom 2016, Portal 2, and Mario Odyssey all had moments where I felt like I'd hit a wall and thought to myself, "I'm not good enough at games to get past this." But since each of those games were the _only_ game on my plate when I played through them respectively, I kind of had no choice but to tough it out. And you know what? To this day I have clearer, fonder memories of the example games I mentioned than almost anything I've played since gaming became my main hobby. I remember stabbing the Cyber Demon with his own horns, finally climbing my way out of Old Aperture to confront Wheatley, and dancing with Pauline at the New Donk City Festival because I _earned_ those moments. I've gotten used to dropping games if I get frustrated and because of that I don't think many games have come close to recreating that magical feeling I felt when I first started to experiment with gaming. I recently started making an effort to only play one game at a time and really commit to it, regardless of difficulty. Even if a game gets frustrating for a time, the long-term satisfaction of finally progressing is unparalleled in other media.
not really. ppl just have different tastes and standards for understanding something. based on the general reception and countless analysis vids, i would even say most ppl that actually played the game understand it but didnt find the message actually meaningful or even well written. you did however, and thats alright. to each their own. ignore the asshats that didnt play it and still shit on it like its a personal insult. its one thing to dislike it from afar without playing if you read about it and decided you wouldnt like it. its another thing to be a vindictive asshat that doesnt want others to enjoy the game. also killua can be cuddly but sometimes not so much.
TLOU2 is the only game that managed to pull out a feeling from inside me no other game (or type of media) ever did. They did not just show what grief and complex emotions are using characters, they used the characters to make the player FEEL grief and those same complex feelings. I could not stop thinking about the game even after days of finishing it.
This is all so spot on. The way you described your journey through Last of Us 2 brought me back to my own journey. That game means so much to me. Playing it was infuriating and frustrating and sad and painful, but it also moved me in ways I didn’t expect. I’ll never forget it. And I get why it makes people so mad, too. I’m rambling. Great vid tho. x
I was wondering how The Last Guardian would make it’s way into a video. Great ideas as always. For me the “frustrating game” that really hit home was Majora’s Mask. It’s still one of my all time favorites. The anxiety of the time limit and the frustration with obtuse progression (especially pre-internet when I first played) created an exceptionally memorable experience
i am trying to avoid games that has frustration in it for las 2 year and i am very happy with my decision. i am playing games to relax and move away from my alredy frustrating life. i dont need more.
Reminds me of Final Fantasy XV when a party member gets injured and you can't go too far ahead. It's frustrating but it makes you feel the impact of the situation.
And you try to go ahead anyways to clear the way for the others and get screamed at for it... You absolutely cannot win in that situation. Yeah, good times.
RDR2 and TLOU2 are in my top 3 favourite games (BOTW coming in third). I have experienced real trauma and hardship in my life and both of these games had that sense of real grief and the human condition which I could connect with. Both games were raw, and unsettling, and connected me in a way that no other TV show book or video game ever has. To me these games are truly masterpieces and I found both of them very emotionally challenging, but in particular the last of us part 2. That game truly takes the cake for me.
The only thing I found in common with folks that love tlou2 is that they think they are smart for understanding the game and everyone who dislikes it is just an idiot. I hate the game for how badly written it is (no shit. It was written by a no talent hack with like 1 episode of a pretty bad tv show in her belt before tlou2) and how obvious it's little tricks are, because...bad writing. It's trying so hard to be deep and shit but it's just as clichè and simple as tlou1 but without the special sauce: the human relationships and bonding. Tlou2 has the same bad and lame story and plot as tlou1 but it lacks the Joel and Ellie part. Basically tlou1 was special because you are basically playing an action last guardian where instead of a pet with trick you get a daughter figure with Ellie. Tlou2 is you playing as trico and killing everyone for killing the kid. Then you play as who killed the kid cuz 😱 cheap shock value. And it simply doesn't work. There isn't a thing building up in tlou2 except the need for revenge. And it doesn't get fulfilled i. The stupidest way possible. I honestly would have found the ending more palpable if Ellie had never found Abbie at all, cuz that's life. Also the apocalypse. And Abbie died starving to death and Ellie had no idea that happened, with a constant question on her mind and unfulfilled thirst of revenge. But nah, tlou2 is childish trash for kids and goes the Disney way. The entire game is unrealistic and cliché, the opposite of tlou1.
@@kato093See, people wouldn't have such a problem with all the hate for TLOU2 if assholes like you didn't have to try and prove their superiority over those who DO like the game
This is really interesting. I thought you were going to be against frustration but you ended up approaching it in a way that made me think. Very cool! (I work in game design and your videos are always giving me food for thought.)
TLG is my favourite game of all time. And this is coming from someone that's not a fan of SOTC. But everything in TLG just clicked for me, I never cared for an NPC like I did with Trico, the seamless level design and the intricate animation made it such an immersive experience. And I cried at the end, it just feel so real to me. A modern masterpiece, shame it doesn't get the praise it deserves.
I finished a second playthrough of TLG a couple months ago bc I missed spending time with Trico! The bond you develop with the character through cooperation is just unreal, totally worth the frustrating aspects for me. I don’t think it would be as strong if they had removed the friction from communicating with Trico.
So interesting--I didn't find the flashback to Abby frustrating at all. I was excited to finally learn why the hell she did what she did. BUT I was VERY frustrated and exhausted playing the final stretch of the game, after the farm. I was so mad at Ellie for going back and so upset about what I thought was going to happen. And then it didn't. It was incredibly effective to experience that total exhaustion from the endless revenge quest
Also, Abby is actually fucking fun to play. She's fast, she's strong as shit, most of the time she's using automatic weapons and has access to way more resources than Ellie. I don't even care if you hate the story, you gotta be able to appreciate all of her different animations for melee and holy fuck that scene where she's about to be hung but then is saved and turns around in the dark with a hammer in her hand and it flawlessly switches from cutscene to gameplay while a hoard of infected descend upon you... that was insanely fucking cool, Abby's story has some of the coolest moments in the entire game. But I can see how you could fail to appreciate that if you just want to put the controller down and let them eat her because you hate her so much. But nevertheless, I remember when the last of us 1 came out and the brutal combat animations were a huge point of interest for the game, everyone was talking about how brutal the combat animations were and how gritty and real the combat was. That shit doesn't even compare to some of Abby's combat animations holy shit they are so fucking cool. I just absolutely love how naughty dog puts story into every mechanic and aspect of these games, just their animations tell you soooo much about the characters. One of the criticisms I see a lot is not that someone hates Abby, but that they hated the game switching and having to play as her when they just wanted to know what happened to Ellie. And I just kept thinking... That exact same thing happens in the first game with Joel nearly dying and having to play as Ellie without knowing if he's even alive or not... the game tells you nothing, it just makes you pretend like nothing even happened, now go hunt a deer. It's almost like they were just testing to see how players would respond to being forced to play as someone else and it worked so well for the story. Winter in the first game is one of the most impactful experiences.
Moments like that is why I'm not very interested in revenge stories. 99% of the time the tension between characters is absolutely God tier, but then, at the end, you either let the asshoe live or you see the protagonist being a sad bad of bones that suicides because he got "moral trauma and revenge have never been satisfying in long run". There is no deep moral in here, there is no explanation as to why this happened, there are no powerful emotions other that frustration and confusion before realisation that all your work in this game, all those little dudes that got in a way, all of them had ZERO impact, the whole journey was not even for the journey, but to get frustrated to never wanting to even think of this game (or even books and movies series' (Hi, Batman)).
Flashbacks are a notorious problem in story telling because it side tracks you from the main goal of the story which makes it feel like it doesn't matter. It doesn't progress the main narrative at all so people disconnect. The only way flashbacks work is if they somehow manage to make it feel like its essential information that progresses the main story plot. Just getting superfluous background information about a side character add enough It's the same problem with dream sequences.
I gotta say I disagree completely, The thing about TLOU is that its a post apocalyptic world where humans revert back to their savage roots in the absence of society and order (besides the QZ's but theyre typically corrupt and terrible in other ways) therefore I do not care about being the bad guy, therefore I do not care about Abby, her dad, her friends, the WLF's, etc. There aren't good and bad guys in this scenario but the game tries to make you feel like Joel is a bad guy the whole time and how you should have sympathy for Abby. I get that she essentially is just as bad as Joel but the difference is that I made a much longer and stronger connection to Joel and I did it first because I played the first game. Not only is it bad enough he dies super early but I get it from a narrative standpoint, the thing I hate about his death is how lazily it was written and how out of character it is for Joel to be in the situation he was in given the way we see him be a paranoid survivalist for the entirety of the first game. Now if that isn't bad enough they make you play as the girl who murdered Joel right in the middle of the most climactic part so far in the story for 10+ hours of gameplay just so you can control her to kick Ellie's ass. A good game design would have been to give the player a choice in this scenario, you don't even need multiple endings just make a cutscene that triggers after the theatre fight and it shows Abby kicking Ellie's ass, I was literally so annoyed that I had to go through with that fight I literally almost turned the game off. And then to make matters even worse, Ellie sets off for revenge which was really impactful given that she destroyed her relationship with Dina to do so just to get all the way to California from Wyoming and then spare Abby. How Lame. It's a disservice to fans of the first game in all honesty and I can understand why some folks like it but as a megafan of the first game that will never be me. Also sorry about this goddamn essay I wrote but TLOU Part 2 gets me going😂
During Guarma I wanted nothing more than to explore the world i was in again. returning from Guarma felt like returning from a painful trip, and when I got back I wanted a hair cut and to enjoy myself with the game again. honestly a brilliant way of directing players to actually enjoy the game more. Rockstar needs to make less multiplayer cash cows and more beautiful stories.
I think one of the biggest divides in this topic is that many people view games as toys or that their goal is to be fun. When you see games as a piece of art you're experiencing rather than content you're consuming it opens you up to a more full range of emotions to be explored. If art is a means to synthesize emotions, then why not allow yourself to experience negative emotions as part of that artistic experience? For me personally, allowing myself to do that has made games the most meaningful form of artistic expression I have encountered.
One of the most stressful and emotional experiences I've ever had was Suicide Mission in Mass Effect 2. I had a great time playing this Masterpiece from start to finish. But then when one of my favorite characters die I had to start over and rethink the choices I made. Luckily, I save everyone except Miranda. I almost regret it but I'm glad mordin is alive.
@@eneco3965 well you see I dared to not just use only paragon or only renegade options the whole game on account of that being boring and terrible and therefore I could never get Miranda to like me again Anyways Mass effect is terrible and the paragon renegade system is the absolute worst part because it made everything into be a goody 2 shoes or a dickhead for no reason and any other sense of complexity was shot in the head like a sick barn dog
From Rick Rubin himself "The best art divides the audience". It's not that frustration itself is good. It's that the most rewarding things in life are difficult to achieve. Nobody climbs a mountain because its easy.
This isn't true though. Just because something is difficult to achieve, doesn't mean that the reward will be worth it, let alone their being an actual reward at all. Also, the best art is whatever a given individual thinks is the best art. Art is subjective. Division is not at all required. People treat these platitudes like axioms, and the world just isn't that simple.
I prefer it when the developers have a strong vision and are uncompromising. Even if the game turns out bad by most people's standards, we can always learn from their attempt and maybe some studio might make it work later.
I appreciate this take way more than the Sekiro copypasta. I think there's a worrying tendency to judge somebody's _moral character_ by their tolerance for frustration, without accounting for how much frustration they already face from chronic illness, trauma, poverty, etc. I'm at a point where I can't stomach much _grief_ in a narrative because it's not a _healing thought experiment_ for me; my life is materially worsened by the subject of my grief, and has been for the last eight traumatic years. My cup is overflowing. In order to take the edge off, I really need games that focus on experimentation without paddling my ass and laughing at me. I feel trapped, and I play games in search of a meaningful sense of freedom.
Your take on Pathologic is exactly how I feel about Darkest Dungeon. I see the people who love it and desperately want that feeling they get from the game, but it's just too much for me. Great video!
The best tip i have received to play it further is to view the characters as resources. Just like coal to fire up an oven, you have to use the characters and there death to get somewhere.
Ey, so this video probably will make some people mad as it talks about some games that make people mad, so please be nice to each other and to me lol. In general though, lemme know what you think about frustration being used in games. When is too much? Should they avoid it entirely? Do you like when games piss you off? Is your name Gary?
Lol I like how you pinned that beforehand
No
Games should be able to be frustrating but should probably give players a way to skip frustrating parts when necessary to keep the game from becoming not fun anymore
Yes sir!
I haven’t watch the video yet, but when I read the title, reaction was “no, never”. I legitimately think frustration is the one emotion that should never be involved in games (through gameplay).
Edit: I just finished watching the video. I said above that frustration is the one feeling games should not involve, I mostly mean that in terms of “difficulty”. I can personally tolerate boredom and tedium. But I think it’s possible to make A game really hard without being frustrating, you just have to make it feel like it’s the players fault when they fail.
*My frustration was having to see my gang not having enough faith.*
All them years, Dutch, for this snake? I gave you all I had. I did...
There just wasn't enough time, Arthur.
He needed more time, and Moneh.
What’s your plan to get their faith back?
Come on Dutch
(Spoiler)
My favourite part was when I died, so I didn't have to hear you whine about your "plans" and "MONEH". Boah
The biggest factor for me is time. When I was a kid and had infinite time to play, frustration was a fun challenge. Now as an adult with very limited game time, I don't want to waste that just getting frustrated with something during my break.
YES exaclty, on paper is nice to say frustation is important, but i play games to relax and have fun after a hard day, frustation will just make easier to me quit the game bc is not worth my time and energy
This!!
Same. I have like, practically 1 hour a day to play game and usually it's with my girlfriend. I don't want to play a frustrating game then end up being mad and ruining our time together.
Agreed. I just want to have some fun when I play games!
That's exactly how I feel
"These characters terrible personalities are so well developed I actually hate being around them at any point."
That's a good game.
@Choas_Lord_512 ok this but unironically. If you don't like it don't order it, but its not like it didn't nail its goal perfectly.
What a weird statement
Micah bell be like
I wonder if this dude harasses actors that play evil characters (the uploader)
@ChaosLord5129 What are you doing in the comment section of a gaming video essay? Go play pokemon or something.
I've known for a long time now that I'm in the minority of players that didn't mind Guarma. In fact, it has one of my favourite scenes in the entire story - "...You keep killin' folk, Dutch..."
Yeah, it’s a really great scene. I think that’s (and the point where Dutch feeds Brontë to the gator) the point where Arthur realizes Dutch is losing it.
It's so weird to me that Guarma, a substantial part of RDR2 that's incredibly immersive & does a TON for character development is thought of as "bad" by anyone. I couldn't take the rest of the video seriously after that.
Yet Arthur has killed and robbed countless more people put together, i thought it was pretty silly from a narrative point of view.
I'm also in this minority. Really enjoyed that chapter because funnily enough it felt like a break from the main storyline, and it had that significant character development you mentioned.
@@roach7336 It's called Red Dead REDEMPTION for a reason.
I feel like frustration in games is like tension in music. There can't be resolution in music without tension, so songs that are all major or too simple are just boring. Similarly, games with little frustration rarely give you a sense of accomplishment when you beat them. However, songs with too much tension just sound dissonant and are not enjoyable to listen to, and if a game is much more frustration than reward it usually won’t be fun to play for the average player. Basically fine in small doses, but above that it depends more and more on the person and it’s harder to say the game is objectively good.
I don’t think frustration = challenge. Good games can be very, very challenging, but not frustrating. As long as the challenge is fair and well designed it won’t be frustrating, although that does depend somewhat on the player’s skill level.
As an avid listener to noise rock and mathcore I do not understand what you mean with "too much tension"
@@tegelstenen4178 hahahaha I really feel what you're saying, but tension and release can come in many forms in music. Some songs may not have "good" harmonic or melodic resolutions, but it can also happen through intensity, tone, ambience and arrangement in general
@@joshuadaniels6455
As someone who has the Platinum for the original Dark Souls, I share your frustration. Anor Londo, The Duke's Archive, New Londo Ruins, The Tomb Of The Giants, and the Kiln Of The First Flame are guilty of having long runs between Bonfire and Boss. However, I didn't find the frustration unbearable as the distance was the worst part and the enemies are easy.
@@joshuadaniels6455 Yeah, having to run through the same area repeatedly to try the boss was tolerable on my normal playthrough, but crossed the line when I did a Soul Level 1 playthrough. Having to try Kalameet and Manus 30-40 times each and dying instantly to pretty much any attack (especially since the original console version couldn't hold a stable framerate), only to repeat the same 3 minute run back to the boss was definitely frustrating.
I don’t know if Guarma had that effect on me but it’s such a small section it didn’t really bother me that much anyway. I was more just confused by how pointless it seemed and slightly disappointed that I couldn’t explore the island and have a few good side quests. But the way you explain it that restriction makes sense in the long run.
I was also shocked by how slow paced rdr2 was from the beginning, it was so different from pretty much any other AAA title. And I absolutely loved that slowness. It felt right for the atmosphere, the setting, the character.
In MGS3 there's a point where you climb up an incredibly long ladder, and a voice starts whispering the theme song of the game.
This is immediately before everything goes batshit to %100, leading up to one of the best adrenaline packed action climaxes in gaming.
It was a brief moment meant to let the llayer/audience breathe before finally going in for the big finale.
Neither of these games invented this story telling technique(it's pretty much as old as fictional litersture) but I feel like rdr2 more or less wanted Guarma to be that sort of "breathing space" before the game goes into it's climactic descent. They more or less found a way to give you a breather, while still keeping the blood pumping with all the action still going on.
I love how uncompromising the game felt. In the sense that Rockstar didn’t care about appealing to the masses with a lot of their design decisions. Specifically chapter 1 and Guarma. And of course all the sim elements. They knew it wouldn’t click with a large group of people but they also knew it would REALLY click for some players. They knew they were taking a risk and I love that about Red Dead 2.
Guarma was kinda the prelude to ACT 3 For the gang. The beginning of the end... everything falling apart and you realizing that the dreams of Tahiti will never happen
@@captainkielbasa5471also, I feel like Guarma was the first time Arthur really saw Dutch for what he had become. When he killed the old lady wanting more gold, and Arthur asked Dutch if he’d kill him next… that’s when Arthur’s already wavering loyalty to Dutch came crashing down.
the first part of guarma is how your supposed to feel, your supposed to understand what arthur is feeling as he gets closer to an understanding of his own morality and how it should be treated to slow things down for yourself as things can get quickly out of control if you dont know how to handle them and how to move with life.
What makes the Guarma section seem intentional to me is that your feelings as the player mirror the feelings of Arthur. Feeling exhausted, disillusioned by the people (characters) around you, feeling apathetic to the things people (the game) are always pushing you to do, wanting time to take a breather and soak up the more simple pleasures of life (the game). You want me to say it?!?! FINE! It’s ludonarrative harmony!
I think the proper phase would be "ludonarrative consonance" lol.
@@mr.fufucudlypoops8207 I just used harmony because that seems to be the most common way it’s said. Either way makes sense.
@@joeprado3614 dissonance is a kind of harmony. Harmony is not the opposite of dissonance.
@@mr.fufucudlypoops8207 for some reason my reply to your reply isn’t showing up. To understand what I mean simply look up the definition of dissonance. Specifically look for the antonyms of dissonance.
@@joeprado3614 I'm a music student. I know what the opposite of dissonance is. It's consonance.
I just love taking the game slow even when I know the story mission is more important. I like to take breaks from heavy narritive parts and just relax by either side mission or mostly just explore and find new things. I love it when developers add those moments that focus on taking break like ones you mentioned about Hollow Knights benches where you can stop and reflect.
One thing! Just one thing! Please tell IT to me: WHY tf do I have so many fans even though no UA-camr is unprettier than I am? WORLDWIDE!!!! WHY??? Tell me, dear chi
I always start a game doing all the side quest but when the story becomes more important i feel that i have to let the side quest to the end.
@@AxxLAfriku man I’ve seen you quite a few times before. You’re just sad. Find something else to be happy about in this life.
@@AxxLAfriku maybe you are just good. Be happy with yourself
I love that too, this is why, contrary to some people, I love when these moments are made to be integral to the game's narrative, when the game's story itself take pause from the tension to explore characters, the world, etc... like for example in the first Trails in the Sky, I just love when the story change constantly rythm. I usually dislike instead when stories in all medias just hit a point, often pretty early or mid story, where everything afterward is just a big rush to the ending with no time to ponder, know the characters better, or explore the world.
Having extreme ADHD I tend to have a habit of blazing through games and never being able to take it slow. For some reason, I was able to very much enjoy and have a very slow pace with this game and delve into just about every side quest possible. I never could articulate or understand what made me able to enjoy the slow pace of the game until now. Solid video all around
I have ADHD as well and I was actually apprehensive about starting Red Dead 2 because of that slowness. I worried that I'd become restless and not enjoy the game at all (or stop playing it immediately). I'm glad to hear it got the ADHD seal of approval. :)
@@SilentRuth10 ya I had a lot of fun with it you can play through as fast as you want but there are a lot of side mission like he mentioned and random events that make it interesting it’s kinda like minecraft in the way you gotta find stuff to do there’s plenty to do just gotta find it
Same. It took me a while to acclimatise to the pace but now it's my favourite 🥰
@@wol9881 there’s always something to do, after I finished the game I wandered and spent all my money, having some of the hang around felt like “the good ol days” even tho we experienced the break up of the gang
That's me
I think Red Dead 2 is one of those kinds of games where you shouldn’t really play it like a normal video game.
I went into it years after release, hearing all sorts of critiques about how slow it is, how strict the mission objectives are, and how generally tedious some animations and systems are. I think this put me in a mindset where I thought “If this is gonna be a slow old cowboy game, I’m gonna play it like a slow old cowboy”. I’ve very rarely role-played my character as hard as I did in this game, but I think doing so helped me enjoy this game far more than if I didn’t.
I took the game really slowly. Hunting, gambling, and exploring between almost every single mission. Usually I try to beat games fairly quickly, but I took my time with Red Dead 2 and enjoyed every second of it.
Quiet moments at night sitting around the campfire, watching the sunset reflect off the ocean, sitting down by a cabin surrounded by snow-tipped trees, watching lightning rip through the sky from a mountain ranger’s outpost. These slow, quiet moments are the ones I remember the most from Red Dead 2, and the ones I don’t think many other games will give me.
THAT'S the way to play this game. And why I keep coming back to it.
Exactly the same experience as mine.
RDR2 is one of my favourite games for this reason, it's basically the only one that makes me relax and role-play.
It's a cowboy simulator, rewarding taking as much time as possible in doing thing. If you try playing it like other games, ticking off objective boxes, it'll get tedious and frustrating. Most of the events are dynamic too so you'll never find them if you fast travel and don't spend time away from missions.
I appreciate that and agree with that being the games intended Way to play the problem is that it is blatantly disrespectful of your time
Even enjoying those same types of moments I still fell off the game because if I wasn’t in the mood for that and wanted to just play some missions it was incredibly tedious.
Long treks through empty stretch’s or tediously slow animations to skin animals.
Or after finishing a shoot out going to loot corpses and everyone I woke up to when I click the button to loot Arthur has to “Stop, turn, walk directly over the body, crouch down, rummage through their pockets, get back up.”
All these things that were done to be “realistic in a cinematic way” eventually wore down on me and just pushed me away from giving the game anymore time because it’s not just a long game is actively makes a point to waste your time on even the SMALLEST interactions.
This sounds like my kind of game
Guarma also did help arthur realize how far Dutch has gone, its incredibly effective narratively.
Not only that, but also made Arthur realize that Dutch was stringing them along - showing that the reason they were fighting and saving money for (a tropical paradise) was a nonsensical lie.
@@c_42 i feel dutch was authentic at one point about Tahiti, but as time went on. He became more and more jaded and paranoid from mikah twisting him. Trying to make him think he was surrounded by doubters and naysayers, when he was used to a family.
100%. When he said that there was no point, I remembered how instrumental that part was to Dutch’s madness. I truly lost all faith in Guarma.
@@Dracossaint For real, the loss of Hosea as a voice of reason really messed things up.
Also the return from Guarma, that slow horse ride with Unshaken playing in the background
Yeah all the Guarma hate makes me feel like a contrarian. It was honestly fine to me, but I will grant it was pretty combat-heavy and linear.
The first time I ever realized a game was purposely trying to frustrate me it was Hotline Miami. It's been a few years since I've played it but there was a level where your character ends up in a hospital and because the character is injured and maybe a little crazy the game completely shifts into this hard to control, annoying and dizzying hospital level; where you have to escape the hospital while dealing with the questions the kinda confusing story has set. I remember being really annoyed with it but as a 13 year old it was the first time I went "Oh this is 100% intentional but I don't think I like it."
def remembert that. Thought it was interesting but remembering it makes me not want to play the game again.
Yeah that section is definitely annoying as hell the first time through but once you learn that if you walk for too long Jacket holds his head and stands still so you just have to walk in bursts. Definitely the weakest level by far and really only serves narrative purpose tho.
Just don't play it then.
@@xDeadlyWarriorX Just don't ever criticize games or compel developers to hone their craft! That's a really healthy and productive mindset to be in! /s
@@ziwuri I am not criticizing the developers - I am critizing the developer's bosses, you dummy. The developers have no fault in this, it's the directive/manager section of the company that are too much of a mercenaries and do not give a shit about what devs/analysts say regarding the status of a project.
The best frustration in RDR 2 was in the city of Saint Denis. I found it frustrating to move around in and explore as there were too many people and the streets were small, with sharp corners. However, it made me appreciate the wild country much more than I had before, which I'm guessing was intentional so you could connect with Arthur's feelings of hate towards civilisation and the city in general
So true
I think it was intentionality made like that as it was kind of the nightmare the gang were trying to stop and prevent. Thats why they made it a pain to traverse I believe
not to mention that looking at someone wrong in Saint Denis would lead to a shoot out and ultimately either having to escape the area or dying which was just a microcosm of the world they lived in, being hunted across the country, having to watch their backs at every turn, but if they played the part (like when Dutch and Arthur worked for the police or the whole Rhodes storyline) then they could go about their life as 'normal'
Roanoke has this feeling as well. It’s definitely more tricky to traverse since it’s all steep cliffs and trees, making it hard to zip through a straight line on horseback. And it makes sense that this is Rdr2’s final camp location before the epilogue
Yeah i think the game really is trying to make you connect with arthur. HE hates Guarma, so YOU hate Guarma
There is an extremely thin line between "frustratingly challenging" and "frustratingly f*ck this game."
When you start feeling like it's the games fault why you're failing, that's when tension becomes frustration, and frustration quickly turns into resounding disappointment.
Dark souls does it very good
True! Just finished Metroid dread and aside from literally 1 room with a prick of a robot, where you can I ly move slowly through water, it's all really well crafted challenge. Every boss I died to, it was blatantly obvious where I fucked up.
Mmm I kind of like when I wanna punch a wall in the middle of a game ( maradaur fight in doom eternal) it made me feel so good when I finally beat him.
Yeah i don’t want to be tortured by the games mechanics. If it’s clearly do-able however I will keep attempting it cuz it’s my own personal fault for sucking. Not the games
@@luismarques3059 think it depends on the person. There's definitely plenty to be frustrated about in Dark Souls, especially the earlier games.
Your section in The Last Guardian totally resonated with me. I remember complaining the entire game about Trico and how frustrating the gameplay was, and then the ending was so beautiful I cried and I was sad to leave the world. I didn’t even realize how much connection was being built in those hard moments
Sounds like reading Catcher in the Rye.
"I think there's a lot of value in trying to understand why people both love and hate a specific thing"
It's lines like these that are I love this channel. The things you say and questions you pose, while they are about gaming, are often extrospective. They do more than look into games and discover what makes them good or bad. It takes a step back and looks at the video game medium as an art style rather than just a few hours of fun. it is okay for video games to be frustrating because art can sometimes be frustrating.
You just listed all reasons to why the selected gang members in Guarma were the best possible combination.
Oh yeah, I agree that the choice was a great one. They got under my skin in such an annoying way, and I am pretty much positive that is what Rockstar wanted.
@@razbuten Oh, thanks for the reply! Love your content :D
And yes, it did the same to me, but as you said, I guess that was the idea behind hahaahahaha
I’m surprised Raz didn’t like Javier! Dude was a homie.
It also gave Bill and Javier a stronger belief in Dutch. I mean, Javier being saved in such a grave situation, had to affect Javier- it's after Guarma Javier turns into more of an asshole instead of funny and charming.
For Bill it was Dutch doing what he promised them- geting back to mainland, which seemed impossible. But he pulled it off.
@@razbuten
hey man, p2 has a difficulty slider you can use.
It's not recommend but it does exist
In classic Raz fassion:
- raises a question
- in depth discussion
- resolves in "I don't know"
I call it like it is
I have the same feelings on the Guarma section. It was empty and tedious and it made me avoid the story missions-and I think that was absolutely the point. It drives you, as the player, to put yourself in Arthur's shoes. You stop caring about the end goal and you go off into the wilderness to live a new life. The slow, meditative moments after Guarma are what I remember the game for. Rarely have I developed such a personal connection with a character.
After the Guarma chapter is a good example of juxtaposition, made you appreciate something when it has a mirror facing it, or have it in a "Different " light
Or at least it seems to me, I have not played neither games in this vid though.
7:56
I do appreciate guarma more now but they could've made it shorter imo
I felt so miserable in Guarma that I wanted to return to the states as quickly as possible. But that misery was part of the story of the game, and because I was so immersed in it I felt exactly how Arthur would have felt.
Interestingly enough, I think I'm less okay dealing with games that are designed to be frustrating than I am dealing with games that become frustrating the more I push their features to their limits. I think its probably due to the fact that I have more control over my experience that way.
I guess once you engage so much with a game, that you want to push its features to their limits, you actively choose experience frustration with the goal of overcoming limits. That's a very different mindset from just playing a game casually and then being forced to do some frustrating task without any desire to do so.
Makes sense that there is a big difference there.
Personally I’m the opposite lol
@@supersonic5644 Hollow Knight profile pic checks out. Have I spotted a fellow Path of Pain enjoyer? A Pantheon of Hallownest clearer, perhaps?
@@Drekromancer I enjoyed the 7 hours I spent in path of pain, but I couldn't beat the pantheon of hallow nest because it takes too long and I have to start from the beginning, Beating 5 stages of Zote was more fun the pantheon 5
I personally think that's just Expectation vs Reality. When you've heard that Darksoul would be difficult and then you played it and actually finds it difficult, you felt sort of 'relief'.
This is genuinely one of the best analyses of The Last of Us 2 I've ever seen, for either side, and it's just a few minutes long.
It's forced empathy and that will genuinely be hard to swallow. In fact the larger a connection someone had with Joel the worse that kind of thing will affect them, i.e. the more empathic you are the worse it is. Sometimes you want that black and white world view in a situation because the outcome mattered to you.
It just makes me more frustrated tbh, they had some great ideas that could have resulted in a masterpiece if executed well but just came across way too emotionally manipulative which coupled with the glacial pacing ruined it for me.
Hell ye
@@sernoddicusthegallant6986 cry harder, lol
@@vault29a The man is so insecure about his game tastes he needs to throw highschooler insults the moment he sees someone level basic criticism against a video game they like. Sure Im the one most likely to be crying here we all believe you buddy.
IMO, frustration has to be novel. It's great when it breaks the monotony, but it can't be the core mechanic in a 50 hour title.
Pathologic: Allow me to introduce myself
Well, I'm not sure about that.
I feel like if a 40-50 hour title is supposed to be frustrating, then that's great. Like Death Stranding for example. It frustration is what makes the game relaxing and satisfying. If you've played the game you'll know what i mean.
But is a game isn't supposed to be slow and frustrating, like RDR2, it can really ruin a game
9:33 I just love how here you’re describing how a certain type of player wouldn’t be able to get past the frustration but to my Dark Souls lensed perspective the clip you showed was of someone getting extremely lucky and not falling to their death.
Also, from what I can remember, in Dark Souls you can roll while on the floor to get up faster (or when you're standing up). So the player actually gave up to easily and didn't take the obstacle seriously (and he's still alive).
Yeah, same, my reaction would be something like a "Oh, fuck" immediately followed by a "Nice", triggering that sweet dopamine that keeps me playing.
@@Solaire_of_Astora13 not in dark souls 1
When it comes to Guarma, I felt pretty similarly the first time around. I was even taken aback, because the story was so good up to that point, and Guarma had felt like an excuse to extend the runtime of the game, and not in meaningful way (think the whole Casino planet fiasco from The Last Jedi). I was itching to get back. I hated not having my guns, not having my horse, and not being around characters I liked.
But thats why I think it worked. Because anything we as the player felt, Arthur felt it doubled. Its a more subtle way of becoming closer to the player character then forcing us to play through their backstory, as TLOU2 did. We didnt need to be spoon fed Arthur’s frustration, because we were already feeling it. And further, I think the chapter as whole is a reflection on Arthur’s frustration with Dutch, and feeling trapped with him. Even the missions (which may have felt pointless and boring to some; I personally enjoyed sinking the ship, that was awesome), are a reflection of Arthur’s frustration because he’s probably thinking the same thing we are: Why the hell am I running around a Godforsaken island? Because of Dutch. Arthur’s lack of trust in Dutch begins here, and is only accelerated after he finds out about his TB.
I only realized this after the game, as well. I still think that maybe there could have been a better way to do it, although I cant say I know how. But replaying the game and getting to the section was much more enjoyable the 2nd time. And of course, the return from Guarma gave us one of the best scenes in the game, along with that phenomenal soundtrack.
Anyways, in short, I believe that frustration should be using sparingly, unless your whole game is used for that exact purpose. Its a difficult field to travel as developer because gamers are so picky these days (whether we admit it or not). We have high standards so there’s a lot of balancing needed. Honestly, how frustration is used depends on the game, and whether or not you play it for fun, for a cinematic experience, or for a bit of both.
This is such an insightful analysis of Guarma and Arthur's character, I never thought of some of this stuff but it's so spot-on. I liked these two lines the most: "I think the chapter as whole is a reflection on Arthur’s frustration with Dutch, and feeling trapped with him." & "...he’s probably thinking the same thing we are: Why the hell am I running around a Godforsaken island? Because of Dutch."
You saying R* tricked me into wanting to get that Majestic Deer ending by making me frustrated at the story mission NPCs? If so, that's brilliant because that widow in the woods, and the old army vet by the lake.. those are good memories.
Hamish will be remembered 😢
I had a similar experience to your own with rdr2 when I played ghost of tsushima. At the start of the game I fought most enemies head on because it was the best, and often only, method of dispatching enemy groups. However, as the game progressed, I realized that I was doing it less and less because the new tools I was being given were just too powerful. Why spend time getting the parry times right when I could just headshot them with the bow, or immediately knock them down with a bomb or poison them. This dawned on me around act 3 and I thought it was super cool how the gameplay organically incentivized me to change playstyle to match Jin's tranformation into the ghost, precisely because it wasn't something the game spelled out for me. It just slowly happened. It made the moments when Jin was confronted resonate so much more with me because it WAS true. Jin had gone from a samurai to an assassin during my gameplay and so I was right there with him during those story scenes. It was a change we both shared.
Now, as you said, stuff like this is murky. It could have been a happy accident that happened because the balance for these new tools was off. You could very well argue that making the melee combat almost obsolete is bad design. Still, that realization and connection with the story was very memorable for me. Stuff like this is what sets videogames apart, where the interactive part of it directly enhances the product's other aspects. Its something that devs should actively strive to pull off with their games imo
I avoided using my op gear. It worked
Yeah I had a similar experience. I initially wanted to be the honorable samurai so I tried to fight every fight head on. As I got further on I just couldn’t keep up and found my overrun by the mongol horde. I slowly began to use stealth more and I eventually embraced it whole heartedly.
@@espnky1 i tried to go head on because i found it more challenging, and thus fun. The stealth in that game is ridicilously easy, and that's the point i think
This is probably why I didn't like it as much as others (still liked it though). I spent the whole game trying to be honourable.
Lmao I legit never use anything in Ghost besides the katana and the tanto
I hate stealth, I like mowing people down
Totally agree with you. Being freed from stranded on Guarma, I felt more free than ever and I took my sweet time before finishing the main story
I felt opposite of him, the only difference was I didn't stop. Every stranger mission I felt obliged to complete. and I did, but after a while, stranger missions get boring. I should've gone in cycles, but when it came to Guarma, I finally got a rest from stranger missions, so for me, Guarma felt like relief, and I finally got back into the cycle of doing actual story missions, so it was fun for me. I enjoyed the surprise, although on the account of every single one of Dutch's robberies gone wrong, I went into the boat idea somewhat knowing in the back of my mind it was going to sink.
I was literally telling my husband last night that one of my favorite things about the modern Frogwares Sherlock Holmes games is how quickly they let you skip through the mandatory minigames. But the trick there is that I'm not going to Sherlock Holmes for a lockpicking minigame or a shoe shining minigame, I'm going to solve mysteries. The game forces you to play the actual mystery solving, but lets you skip just about everything else if you wait long enough, which is great because then I don't get stuck on some stupid action set piece while playing a mystery game. L.A. Noire did this too.
I think it's fair to let people skip parts that aren't central to the experience. In open world games most of that stuff becomes side activities, but in more linear games where you'd get stuck at a stupid unpickable lock, you should be able to skip.
I think the add those skips knowing not everyone can do them to boot, its basically a logic puzzle that for some, might tickle their fancy. But the market for these games are usually the more casual variety that aren't try-hard puzzle tacklers.
I was thrilled to find the “enable skip puzzle prompt” option in the accessibility section of the settings menu on Spider-Man
The thing is, not all this minigames are just CHORES, and some may grant you exitments snd persoectives in life you may never feel otherwise.
That is mostly why "hardcore" players as you may call them dont want skips, sometimes it detract to experience people may have because they are not force to do it.
Like life, why really learn a skill when you can just "learn it"? Does it make it worth it?
Journy vs Goal kind of deal.
"which has bred a community of die-hard fans through the shared experience of suffering." Damn, you didn't hold back at all lol
I think Guarma is suppose to make you feel homesick and appreciate the world of Rdr2 more. Even Arthir says he is homesick which is how they want the player to feel. (They want the player to feel the same as Arthur and they do that well here)
Hades and Celeste frustrated me a lot playing it, but in a good way as I keep coming back over and over and over again.
Was gonna say Celeste
summit B side is a lot of fun
Celeste kicked me in the nuts but dang not gonna lie all that frustrating and rage was worth it. 👍
Frustration with a side of hope
Hades eases the frustrating by giving 'dying' it's own reward with new dialogue and new unlocks
Well there's also frustration from wildly untested RNG or "allies" getting in the way of anything you're trying to do (like shooting a legendary you're trying to collect in the face).
I think something like that can be classified as "unintentional frustration", or something the developers didn't intend to do. And those are almost always unequivocally bad.
@@sighko Pretty much.
Embracing the slow pace completely revolutionized RDR2 for me. My first run, when I was, well... *running* through the game. Yeah, slowing things down was tedious. But I replayed recently. And embraced the immersion. Little things, like leading my horse down valentines main drag instead of mashing A. Surveying a gang camp with binoculars from the wood line before going in. Stopping and split pointing my bullets. Basically, playing it like it's a movie I'm watching instead of like gta cowboy.
It took it from one of my favorite games, to my absolute favorite game.
As long as there is moments of relief between the tension then it's fine, kind of like working your way towards a boss fight. A game that does this well is hades. Even though you lose over and over again it isn't frustrating knowing that you're going to get stronger each time. I feel like if you don't get a time to relax you'll get burn out quickly from a overly frustrating game.
As a sidenote, the limit for frustration is at vastly different places for different types of players and the more hardcore among us would do well to remember that.
There are some players who will never enjoy a roguelike or roguelite even if it's as well designed as Hades.
Enter The Gungeon was very annoying for me. I'm not a hardcore, and constantly dying made me give up quickly.
Honestly, I had this problem with Bloodborne. It just felt too frustrating, like there was no payoff or feeling of progression.
Sure, I could keep trying to kill Father Gascoigne and the other bastards outside his arena but he's wiped the floor with me several times over, and the game's not going to get easier from that point onwards, not to mention I literally have no other gear to buy to try a different approach.
So, I just never really played it again. Too much frustration with no payoff, in my eyes.
I absolutely love listening to people talk about the relationship between games and the people who play them.
I'm always looking forward to your uploads because of this. Thanks for the content!
you PERFECTLY explained my feeling returning to the normal map after escaping guarma. i took the longest time continuing story missions and really took the time to enjoy moments with arthur, my horse and the beautiful world. i have the nicest memories playing the game just roaming around and chilling.
When games get too frustrating I often stop playing entirely. I can't deal with the stress that the frustration gives me
I feel ya, I never finished bloodborne dlc because Ludwig
That's why I never finished Cell Machine
I can respect that. For me though, I'm a Geometry Dash player and beating a single extreme demon can take up to litteral months and hours of playing and failing.
But then finally getting that 1 attempt where you beat that level is amazing. That feeling of having beaten such a difficult level, the feeling of this journey finally being over feels absolutely incredible. And that is what drives me and a lot of other people forward.
But then again, don't play something you don't enjoy :)
@@babyeater639 *It smells like bitch in here*
afraid to get your feet wet?
I feel it's important to acknowledge the difference between narrative frustration and mechanical frustration (which may be for a narrative reason). Last of Us part 2 was narrative frustration, Dark Souls is mechanical frustration.
I really like how you’re putting this, I mod the heck out of skyrim to make is as tough and realistic as the game can be, the cold can kill you, the combat is unforgiving and the story missions are very hard. So after a couple main missions I just walk around for a while, I have fast travel turned off at all times so wandering is very calming, and I often find good side quests that I didn’t know about before and I’m actually invested in them because I’m not so worried about getting through it I just experience it. I also can have multiple followers but sometimes I choose to have none which somehow makes thing easier to take in and enjoy.
And with how difficult I’ve made the game I’m at level 18 and I’ve only been to 3 of the holds. I have so much exploring ahead of me and it feels very large, which makes taking it is small bits so important
I'm kinda surprised there wasn't a Celeste reference in this one. One of my all time favorites but I'll be the first to admit it's intentionally frustrating and the game uses the frustration as a motif in its storytelling.
Gotta disagree with you there. I don't think Celeste is intentionally frustrating at all. It's difficult sure, but it's fair and the controls are some of the tightest and most responsive in any platformer. Deaths are quick and you don't lose much progress even in the worst instances.
I'd argue Celeste goes out of its way to not be frustrating at all.
@@drfoto2673 On top of that there are accessibility options so if you want to bypass all the mechanical frustration and enjoy the narrative you can do that.
@@drfoto2673 The mirror temple is literally designed to invoke feelings of anxiety and frustration through its mechanics. Just because a game has tight controls and good respawns doesn't mean the game can't have frustration. Mario maker has good controls as well, but damn you get a choose a door level it sucks. Obviously, celeste isn't choose a door, but it's challenging design can have frustration in it. The thing is that celeste lets you deal with the frustration in bursts (small sections to pass per checkpoint as you said) and at your own pace (get the strawberries or don't. Get the b sides or don't. Use the assist features or don't). There definently is frustration, but just because there is frustration doesn't mean the game is bad for it.
@@lifetake3103 Celeste is not designed to be frustrating to play, regardless of that being a theme used in the game. It's designed to be challenging. And it gradually ramps up that challenge rather well, with tons of optional strategies and side paths to take. Frustration only comes from the player's inability to learn, but that's not part of the design in the same way as it is in the Dark Souls games.
Mario Maker troll levels is a completely different thing, where pick-a-door situations are usually just bad design. But in most of those you find out what to do once you've done it once or twice, so there's no massive amounts of repeat tries. That's a different type of level, which may or may not be frustrating by design.
@@drfoto2673 except in farewell. Oh yeah, and have you noticed how much longer boss fight screens are?
My frustration was being forced to walk in the camp. I’ve been holding this grudge for three years now
AAA games have a real problem with churning out bland, easy to digest games over and over again, so when one takes an artistic risk, we need to encourage them--even if we don't like the particular risk taken--for the sake of diversifying the medium.
@Tom Ffrench Risk-taking should come with the assumption that the developers have faith that their idea is more than just a gimmick, though of course sometimes risks are used mainly for marketing material (style over substance)
@Tom Ffrench Criticism =/= dismissal of the attempt.
the artistic risk in rdr2 was to make a really fucking boring game and they succeeded
@@nubbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbin Hey, if you say so. I’m glad I enjoy the game because it’s always more fun to enjoy a game than to hate it
@@SpinningTurtle66 there were some good moments but overall im sad i couldnt enjoy it but not every game is for everyone
I had the opposite happen, I was constantly exploring and helping everyone I met to the point the amidiate area was running low on quests. Guarma made refocus on the story as it took center stage while on my 2nd time around it made dread because i knew that after that island it's only gonna go down hill
It's interesting to me that in some cases, games that explicitly centre around frustration (e.g. Getting Over It)... calm me down. They bring a sense of serenity with them. Perhaps this relates to the specific _kind_ of frustration or the mechanics that induce it, but I'm still not quite sure exactly why. I don't _like_ feeling frustrated, but I still like playing Getting Over It. Maybe part of it is that failure is expected. It's a place to fail in peace, rather than in hectic, high-stakes real life situations. That's my hypothesis, anyway. But it feels therapeutic and helps me de-stress, and reminds me that failing isn't the end of the world. As long as you're happy with the effort you put in, the result doesn't always matter.
Like Death Stranding, even though it may be frustrating sometimes, what people don't realise, is that that's the point, it's meant to be frustrating. And I a way, that's kinda what makes it relaxing.
Even though I may not always agree with creator and dev decisions, I like when they take some risks. It means I’m not being given a reskin of the first game. I would much rather devs be creative and design with care than for them to dispassionately slap together a game.
The more developers try to please everyone the more they compromise their vision.
100%, at the end of the day they’re the artist
as an avid celeste player one of the reasons it’s my favorite game of all time is beating those frustrating sections and the relief that comes afterwards is addicting
The forced slow walking is the pinnacle of frustration.
You put it really well that it is entirely on what works for the individual, and whether the personal satisfaction outweighs the frustration. Personally I find the satisfaction of beating any given boss in most Souls games to be so fleeting that the frustration often isnt worth it personally.
100% agree it’s on a subjective level, and respect to you for recognizing it’s not your cup of tea instead of demanding it change to suit you as seems to be the trend now.
An indie game that I think uses mechanical frustration amazingly is Rain World. Through not giving players a clear goal from the beginning and making the act of exploration fun yet difficult, it allows players to just experiment with the janky movement and combat systems. The goal is to make an experience wherein players slowly transition from reactionary prey to goal-oriented predator, which I think is best accomplished by giving the primary systems a high skill floor, and an even higher skill ceiling. If you consider yourself a particularly patient person, I think Rain World is definitely worth playing.
I found it too mechanically inconsistent to really enjoy. Not in a way that you'd get better at when you play enough, but one you learn to cope with the bad stuff when you're experienced enough. I don't think that's good game design. I prefer a harder challenge but with more consistent game mechanics. Rain World is more frustrating and uncomfortable than hard and challenging.
@@AnotherDuck I can understand your reaction to the game, it's personally one of my favourite games but I recognise it has a glaring failure.
I'm guessing at least some of the frustration you got out of the game came from it not teaching you certain essential game mechanics, the three it should have explained were
1: Swapping hands by double-tapping grab
2: Safely dropping items by pressing down+grab
3: How to roll after landing by holding down+left/right after a fall higher than your jump
I've seen far too many people not understand why their slugcat decides to roll into the abyss for seemingly no reason, and that's entirely the game's fault for not explaining it. Other than these not being taught I think the movement and such is fantastic, but I can understand if other factors, like white lizards or swimming or the always annoying _getting killed right as you move to a new room,_ could be deal breakers.
@@lachlanmccormick3486 Nah, I knew about those. I think they're fairly intuitive.
@@AnotherDuck the game isn't inconsistent though, just really unintuitive at first
@@captasticts8419 Disagree.
Keep in mind that more than 90% of what was planned for Guarma ended up being cut out in the final game. The playing area of Guarma was originally going to be much much larger
The narrative is good in Guarma, i don't know what he is talking about
One thing I love about playing games is a feeling of satisfaction of clearing something hard- and when I get too frustrated at something, that feeling of satisfaction goes away. I don't know what it is, it should be the other way around, but after something that truly frustrated me, my reaction to clearing it is more like 'thank god that's over' and not 'yes, I finally did it'.
But isn't "thank god that's over" a feeling of satisfaction?
@@Paradox-xm9zq There's a difference between relief and satisfaction, when I finnish a long test or school project I'm often relieved, not satisfied.
@@lucascaetano7920 Absolutely correct, and a very important distinction.
I feel that, I think there is definitely a lack of sliding reward system when it comes to frustration. I know I have been there when you finally beat a level after 20 times of trying only to be given a small potion and 50g and sent on your way back into the story. Like thanks, that did nothing for me. Im looking at Halo 3 and call of Duty when you ramp up the difficulty to hardened or Insane and it just turns into a pit of frustration without any real payoff
@@lucascaetano7920 I don't know, to me relief is satisfaction
As someone who loves challenging platformers, I absolutely agree with frustration building an emotional connection. There's a sense of deep satisfaction from seeing all of your hard work pay off that isn't possible without the entire emotional roller coaster that comes before it. Love is built on a foundation of complex emotions and deep understanding, so games that embrace inspiring both negative and positive emotions in players, while they won't work for everyone, at least have the potential to be truly meaningful to some.
When a game is overly frustrating and not fun because of it, I just turn it off and never play again.
The good kind of frustration is something like you dying in a side mission or a rougelike and saying “Oh, shit.” Then still going back and trying again with what you learned.
The bad kind of frustration is dying seven times the same way or doing the same thing twenty times and just putting the game down.
I don't think frustration is the right word for the first example.
I wouldn't even call the second example frustration either. It's more like grinding or repetitive.
@@kevinz8554 That is often frustrating. You're spending a lot of effort without getting anywhere. Usually that involves luck or some very precise challenge that even getting a lot better doesn't help a lot.
Frustration in mechanics is something I can't tolerate, but I'm open to being provoked by a narrative direction I may disagree with. I played GTA 4 in 2020, and although I recall my difficulty with shooting and driving as negative elements, the dissonance in tone with other Grand Theft Auto games was staggering, and Niko is an easily favored protagonist in that series for me. That's why I want to replay The Last of Us Part 2: to form my own sentiments based on the experience I had, instead of being influenced by others.
This is the third video that's been recommended to me, but the first I've commented on that I didn't abandon or delete (yet). I found what you said about TLOU2 compelling. In fact, I'm currently writing an essay comparing the reception the game received, and your mention of it stirred feelings I didn't know I had. Thanks.
thats awesome. let us know what you think of part 2!
I take it you've seen all three TLOU2-videos by Girlfriend Reviews? If not, you should. They're worthy of an essay on how the game was received in and of themselves. (Especially the last one, about how they got threatened by TLOU2-haters.)
@@johnnyq9809 Yes, I did include the videos and I watched them prior. Though, now that you mention it, I might rewatch the review for fun.
I didn't find GTA IV frustrating at all. Sure, everything is a lot 'heavier' than in the PS2 games, and even than in GTA V. But it is still not frustrating in the way that RDR2 is imo.
Surprising that you didn’t talk about the roots of video games themselves. Games used to be intentionally difficult and frustrating because old systems didn’t have the capabilities to play large games so they took their games that would take a half hour to beat and made them intentionally difficult so they would take hours
I think one of the problems with frustration in games is that when intentionally(?) implemented most of the time is unavoidable, that's why having customizable difficulty (like Pathologic 2 if I'm not mistaken) and assist modes is probably the best way to handle it
The other problem is that "breaking" the game experience as designed is VERY unsettling for a lot of people, so even when the tools are there to begin with people won't use them anyway, and some of them would even try to shame anyone who uses them
I'm a huge advocator for having options. I understand that balancing a game in its normal state is already hard, and few games actually implement difficulty options well, but at the very least it's more accessible than excluding it altogether.
My take is, if someone is dead-set on playing a game "exactly as intended", they can just go to the options menu and hit "Default".
@@sanfransiscon I'm not talking about purists, I'm talking about people who would use these options but ultimately don't because they feel like would "spoil" the game iykwim
My favourite thing about TLOU2, is actually one of the things i most hear about the game when people are talking negative things about it, the pacing and length of the game.
For me it actually made me appreciate the lives of the two main characters more, how awful and painful they were and how if they could have an easy fix for their sanity, they would take it in a heartbeat, i kinda was in the same mindset as them, i mean the game literally made me lose sleep and it gave me a huge headache but i only came to realization of it all when Ellie was crying on the beach looking at the fog, when it suddenly hit me, that i felt like the characters, that i had this huge weight on me and i was finally ready to be free of it, like Abby already had realized that and now Ellie was also ready and that is when it became my favourite game ever because it was willing to torture me and put me on the same level as the characters.
Nothing abort that game is good
@@omensoffate Gameplay, Story, Character development, Soundtrack... I can go on and on, so yeah, next time play the game before you comment.
I love this aswell, it's essentially 2 games in 1.
So true!!!
Great gameplay, horrifically bad story.
Generally, if a game is sufficiently pissing me off, I'll usually just drop it. I get enough frustration from Real Life without needing to experience it from my games too.
yup
Good job responding to an incredibly nuanced video with as reductive a take as you could muster
@@wonderlustking1306 I'm sorry; were you expecting me to express my take on the topic with needless extra words, when what I said feels like it suffices just fine? Is there some unwritten clause saying any video I comment on has to be as drawn out as the video is? Not sure I'm getting you.
@@Philip027 I don't completely agree with your original comment. But this reply is 100% justified and accurate, you have ever right to think that & your opinion doesn't even contradict the narrative of the video.
yeah but i would say there is a difference and a decent gap between fustrating and pissing me off. I can and do enjoy frustating games but if it exceeds the limit and pisses me off im done.
I don’t mind frustration in games as long as it is executed well and there is a good reason for it.
That can be applied to any intention.
@@DavidBaatzsch Exactly
I don't mind X as long as it's good
Frustration derived from learning is understandable and tolerable.
Frustration derived from artificial difficulty and bad design will break a game.
@@Destroyer2150 100% Agree you said what I wasn’t able to word well.
"something's badly written if it fails at what it's trying to do, not if it doesn't do what you wanted it to"
Something is badly written if it doesnt make sense.
@@thorthewolf8801 that works until you realise there are stories written to not make sense in the first place
In my opinion, Snowrunner is a game that uses frustration as a "feature" quite well. Completing a delivery after battling through mud, water and snow is very satisfying
Why not just play a fun game instead though?
I get why some people like it but how the hell can you enjoy a game where you drive a vehicle slowly because driving into the wrong puddle can ruin the truck you were driving.
The only reason i play car games, and i don't even play them often, is to go fast and feel like i am driving at insane speeds.
I feel this way about Skyward Sword. Even though the motion controls and other aspects can be frustrating, I found it all the more rewarding when I finished the game because of that struggle
Holy shit, a wild “type 2 fun” sighting. That’s a deposit in the emotional bank right there.
Hit me like a dump truck
RSK 4 life
On more mechanical level, frustration can also push players to engage with game's systems in order to remove source of frustration - both serving as organic tutorial and giving satisfaction of solving a problem they experienced. Factorio handles it quite well - you unlock automation around the time crafting everything manually becomes slow, you unlock bots and ability to copy-paste designs when building becomes tedious, you gain ability to trivialize enemies completely at a point when they shift from being challenge to being an annoyance.
I think I had/still have more complex emotions playing The Last of Us Part II for the first time than for anything else in my life.
Hi Raz!
Frustration is absolutely worth it when it is purposely designed to make the player feel that particular emotion, not because of the gameplay or a particular mechanic, but because the story chose to make you feel that way, especially with the Last of Us 2. As you said, it is why I can't stop thinking about it a full year later. Love it or hate it, for anyone who has played TLOU2 to completion, they absolutely will not forget it.
Frustration as a difficulty is also worth it. Maybe not as players grow older and have to work long hours and come home to what is meant to be a brief escape, but definitely for people who enjoy a challenge.
And when a challenge strikes the balance between difficult and rewarding, you inevitably end up with masterpieces such as Cuphead, Celeste, and the Souls games.
Where I draw the line with frustration, is tedium. Games as a medium are supposed to be fun - and fun can be pure enjoyment (Mario Odyssey), wonder and amazement (Breath of the Wild), and unpredictability and emotional connection (as you mention with specific characters in games like The Last of Us 2, and The Last Guardian).
Tedium in games like Death Stranding serve no purpose. You're not having fun, you're not accomplishing much by means of challenge, and you're definitely not on an emotional rollercoaster. So you're left with? Frustration.
Huge fan of your videos Raz, you're part of the reason I started a UA-cam channel myself, so thank you for the content you upload.
One of my favorite moments from Borderlands 2 and one that always springs to mind whenever I think about it comes about halfway through the game. You return to the town of Sanctuary, your home base, after a story mission. And all of a sudden, the town is under attack by an orbital bombardment from the Hyperion Corporation. With no other option, your companion Lilith decides to use her Siren magic powers to get the town airborne and teleport it out of harm's way. However, during this you, the player, end up warped outside of Sanctuary and witness it being teleported away... without you on board. Your base, where you keep all your best loot in the vault and where you can buy upgrades, is just gone. All that remains is a smoldering crater in the ground where Sanctuary once stood, and a marker on your map in an unknown region where your companion on the radio says you can find a teleporter that can get you back to Sanctuary's new airborne location.
So all you can do is take one last look at that crater, turn right around and walk back to the beginning areas of the game, summon a car, and start the long drive to that new marker on your map. I just never understood why I remembered this moment so fondly until now.
Thanks for putting my love for TLOU2 into words.
I like your distinction between short-term, Type 1 Fun, and long-term or more retrospective Type 2 Fun. I think this also applies to most other things in life: some things or activities offer you short-term fun and gratification without necessarily contributing to some higher goals, whereas other things may be dull, repetitive, or strenuous, yet they lay the foundation for gratification in the future that is potentially more meaningful than most of the Type 1 Fun. Activities like reading non-fiction books, learning a new language, or simply doing your daily chores may not be fun or even frustrating in the moment, but I now that I will eventually experience Type 2 Fun and that this feeling will (hopefully) outweigh all the Type 1 Fun I missed out on along the way.
So, when it comes to gaming, I think it depends on your motivation for playing a particular game. I don't have as much time as I used to have for gaming, therefore I am seldom willing to invest countless hours in a title like Dark Souls which, for the most part, only offers frustration, when what I am actually looking for in my scarce playing time is some light-hearted fun or a captivating yet non-challenging story. At the same time, I can definitely understand the value of suffering your way through Dark Souls in order to be rewarded with an achievement that you truly earned. Luckily, there are games for all types of players, and I am totally fine with not being offered an Easy Mode for Dark Souls-although this might mean that I will never get around to play the game, I know that it ensures that other people have some of the most memorable moments in their gaming career.
I agree man, you got a good life in front of you if you do this.
The issue when it comes to the discussion of an easy mode for Dark Souls is that having one doesn't impact players that don't want to play it.
@@mechanomics2649 I know what you mean, yet I think the very essence of Dark Souls is inextricably linked to its inherent difficulty. After all, many games have various difficulty levels, including hard modes which can be immensely challenging, but in most cases, the experience of playing the game is roughly the same, only harder as well as more demanding and/or time-consuming. Dark Souls, on the other hand, (although I have to admit that I only have second-hand knowledge about it, derived mostly from UA-cam essays) centers entirely around the intense frustration and subsequent equally intense feeling of reward and gratification, a principle that influences all aspects of the game from the gameplay to the lore and the world design. Thus, I think that an Easy Mode-even if you don't choose it-would alter both the game design and your experience and would have certainly prevented Dark Souls from obtaining its notoriety, cult following, and cultural standing as one of the best games of the last decade.
@@VallisYT Coming from someone who has beaten DS3 and Bloodborne I think playing those games on an easy mode would definitely take away from the overall experience. Because the story itself in those games is pretty confusing, vague and hard to follow. Not saying its bad, its actually very interesting once you understand it, but a long youtube summary video is pretty much the only way most players will have any idea whats going on. So if you could play a Soulsborne game like its a generic, mindless hack n slash what are you really left with? Not to mention half the reason people bother learning about the lore in those games is because theyve built such an emotional connection with game through the difficult gameplay. I personally didnt quite get that same level of an emotional connection with them because I didnt find them quite as hard as people hype them up to be. Definitely still amazing games though.
@@VallisYT See, the problem there is that to a lot of people a Dark Souls easy mode would be just as challenging but rewarding to play for them as the base game is to you. Not everyone starts out with the same skill in gaming or experience, or are even physically capable of playing at the same rate.
Ahhhh I’m so bummed you didn’t mention Doom Eternal! Hugo Martin (the creative director) has a ton of great videos talking about the importance of tastefully frustrating the player
Yo, I know this comment is old, but could you help me locate some of these videos, maybe even with timestamps? I'm really curious what he has to say about the subject.
@@asbjrnmikkelsen7164 Check out NoClip documentaries. They interviewed Martin and Marty when both games came out. And there is also a podcast on their second channel with Hugo Martin, where he speaks more about the development.
There’s only one issue I had with rdr2 that I found extremely annoying. The inventory settings and the games failure to remember outfits, and weapons I’ve picked off my horse, I want to have my 2 custom pistols and my custom shotgun, and honestly that’s it cause that’s how I role played my guy, unless I needed a repeater or long rifle I would always pick the shotgun, but the game usually ignores these choices and seemingly randomly picks weapons for you. All this cool detail of you being able to switch from rifle to pistol and pull weapons from your horse feels like a waste when the game will just ignore it most of the time
Your breakdown of The Last of Us pt 2 was great. Felt the same way about having to play as Abby but understood why I was doing it
I were all over mastering frustrating games in younger days, but not as an adult. Frustrating games is just waste of time for me nowadays.
Doesn't help that there is way too many new games.
To me, The Last Guardian wasn't frustrating. I didn't feel like I was fighting the game or the AI, I was feeling like I was making a bond with a creature as afraid of everything as I was. I felt like I was helping a big, fuzzy cat overcome its fears, while it would help me out. We needed each other, and all that was needed was just a bit of patience to understand.
You summed it up really well, I’m just co-signing.
Apparently the way Trico's AI works he also becomes more responsive as you take care of him and he slowly starts to trust you (which makes sense), removing spears and calming him down, finding food... so players who refuse to engage with the game on its own terms and just expect it to obey at once like a robot instead of a living breathing creature with wants and needs are going to have a worse experience. It's kind of like complaining Dark Souls is unfair while refusing to use the mechanics it gives you to fight more effectively. But yeah, brilliant wonderful game, a misunderstood masterpiece.
I was an assistant manager for GameStop when The Last Guardian came out. As a huge Shadow of the Colossus fan, I’d been awaiting its release for years and I absolutely loved it. When it went on sale to $20, at some point in 2017 I recommended it to a customer who asked for recommendations on games I liked and two genres he gave me were puzzle games and platformers. He was also looking for less expensive PS4 titles, so I thought it might be a good fit and told him about the game. As I later found out, he rather angrily told one of my coworkers that I recommend terrible titles, said I’d probably never even played any “good” games before (if I’d even played ‘The Last Guardian’ at all lmao), and someone should “have a talk with her because clearly she doesn’t understand video games and is bad at her job.” He also recommended firing me (to someone under me, funnily enough, as he didn’t know my position). *Clearly* this dude had bigger issues past not liking the game from the other comments about “fake girl gamers” he made to my coworker, but it still bewilders me to this day how people seem to think their opinion is the only one that matters. It’s totally fine for him to not like the game, but that doesn’t mean other people can’t. If you want to bond with Trico, you will, and the game does an incredible job in letting you do so. However, if you _don’t_ bond with Trico, the game also takes that into account and he stays untrustworthy of you - I think it’s brilliant.
I think Games like TLOU2 & RDR2 shows us how far Games have come.
I'm glad they exist.
They're impressive i just wish they had less restrictive mission structure
@ashy There's definitely a lot more movement and a need for other tactics besides just shooting, but still I wish there were non-lethal options you could take and they could weave your combat choices into the narrative.
TLoU2 does nothing narratively that can't have been done in a film or a TV series. Heck, that game is constantly criticised for its ludonarrative dissonance between the story and the gameplay (with how Ellie's doubts about killing aren't even close to being reflected in gameplay).
There are, were, and will be so many better examples of games being art. They don't need to look like something Hollywood would churn out to be a meaningful experience.
@ashy Maybe. I know nothing about RDR2 and frankly, I don't care for it (I find open world games draining in general) so I'm reserving my judgements on it.
That's what the game is _supposed_ to be about. But then she ends up second-guessing herself about whether she should actually kill the people she wants to get a revenge on even though in gameplay, she shows no remorse in brutally and graphically murdering anyone who stands in her way. And to my knowledge, the story never addresses the gameplay actions and instead just chugs along, saying what it wants to say. In a game where your story is basically everything, that's kind of a problem and it's why I think TLoU2 just should've been a movie or a TV series and not risk dealing with such problems.
@@Skallva I just think TLOU2 just shows stories such as those shouldn't be in TV series only, it could be in games too
I tend to play a lot of games at once, and if I get tired of a game I'll usually just drop it. However, sometimes I think back to the games I played _before_ I really considered myself a gamer. Back when I only played a game or two a year (sometimes less often than that) every game stuck with my so much more. Doom 2016, Portal 2, and Mario Odyssey all had moments where I felt like I'd hit a wall and thought to myself, "I'm not good enough at games to get past this."
But since each of those games were the _only_ game on my plate when I played through them respectively, I kind of had no choice but to tough it out. And you know what? To this day I have clearer, fonder memories of the example games I mentioned than almost anything I've played since gaming became my main hobby. I remember stabbing the Cyber Demon with his own horns, finally climbing my way out of Old Aperture to confront Wheatley, and dancing with Pauline at the New Donk City Festival because I _earned_ those moments.
I've gotten used to dropping games if I get frustrated and because of that I don't think many games have come close to recreating that magical feeling I felt when I first started to experiment with gaming. I recently started making an effort to only play one game at a time and really commit to it, regardless of difficulty. Even if a game gets frustrating for a time, the long-term satisfaction of finally progressing is unparalleled in other media.
Wow this is great. I’ve had a similar dilemma on whether to play multiple games at once or not and now I think I’ll follow your advice
Damn. Someone that actually understands the point of tlou2. Respect.
not really. ppl just have different tastes and standards for understanding something. based on the general reception and countless analysis vids, i would even say most ppl that actually played the game understand it but didnt find the message actually meaningful or even well written. you did however, and thats alright. to each their own. ignore the asshats that didnt play it and still shit on it like its a personal insult. its one thing to dislike it from afar without playing if you read about it and decided you wouldnt like it. its another thing to be a vindictive asshat that doesnt want others to enjoy the game. also killua can be cuddly but sometimes not so much.
TLOU2 is the only game that managed to pull out a feeling from inside me no other game (or type of media) ever did. They did not just show what grief and complex emotions are using characters, they used the characters to make the player FEEL grief and those same complex feelings. I could not stop thinking about the game even after days of finishing it.
Lol roll playing as a teenage lesbian really brings the emotions out for you huh?
@@Laocoon283 Are you so sociopathic that you only feel any empathic feeling towards a straight white male character or what?
@@Laocoon283 What?
@@3lle272 lol roll playing playing as a teenage lesbian really brings the emotions out for you huh?
@@Laocoon283 I’m a boy and I cried when aunt may died in Spider-Man ps4
Rockstar haven't been concerned with fun for the past 20 years
This is all so spot on. The way you described your journey through Last of Us 2 brought me back to my own journey. That game means so much to me. Playing it was infuriating and frustrating and sad and painful, but it also moved me in ways I didn’t expect. I’ll never forget it. And I get why it makes people so mad, too.
I’m rambling. Great vid tho. x
I was wondering how The Last Guardian would make it’s way into a video. Great ideas as always. For me the “frustrating game” that really hit home was Majora’s Mask. It’s still one of my all time favorites. The anxiety of the time limit and the frustration with obtuse progression (especially pre-internet when I first played) created an exceptionally memorable experience
Manipulative is an accurate description for TLOU2. Especially the zoo parts. And the marketing.
i am trying to avoid games that has frustration in it for las 2 year and i am very happy with my decision. i am playing games to relax and move away from my alredy frustrating life. i dont need more.
Same.
Reminds me of Final Fantasy XV when a party member gets injured and you can't go too far ahead. It's frustrating but it makes you feel the impact of the situation.
And you try to go ahead anyways to clear the way for the others and get screamed at for it... You absolutely cannot win in that situation. Yeah, good times.
RDR2 and TLOU2 are in my top 3 favourite games (BOTW coming in third). I have experienced real trauma and hardship in my life and both of these games had that sense of real grief and the human condition which I could connect with. Both games were raw, and unsettling, and connected me in a way that no other TV show book or video game ever has. To me these games are truly masterpieces and I found both of them very emotionally challenging, but in particular the last of us part 2. That game truly takes the cake for me.
Dude, my top 3 is almost the same hahaha (i still need to play Zelda, but I know it's awesome!). Nice taste ;)
The only thing I found in common with folks that love tlou2 is that they think they are smart for understanding the game and everyone who dislikes it is just an idiot.
I hate the game for how badly written it is (no shit. It was written by a no talent hack with like 1 episode of a pretty bad tv show in her belt before tlou2) and how obvious it's little tricks are, because...bad writing.
It's trying so hard to be deep and shit but it's just as clichè and simple as tlou1 but without the special sauce: the human relationships and bonding.
Tlou2 has the same bad and lame story and plot as tlou1 but it lacks the Joel and Ellie part.
Basically tlou1 was special because you are basically playing an action last guardian where instead of a pet with trick you get a daughter figure with Ellie.
Tlou2 is you playing as trico and killing everyone for killing the kid. Then you play as who killed the kid cuz 😱 cheap shock value. And it simply doesn't work.
There isn't a thing building up in tlou2 except the need for revenge. And it doesn't get fulfilled i. The stupidest way possible.
I honestly would have found the ending more palpable if Ellie had never found Abbie at all, cuz that's life. Also the apocalypse. And Abbie died starving to death and Ellie had no idea that happened, with a constant question on her mind and unfulfilled thirst of revenge.
But nah, tlou2 is childish trash for kids and goes the Disney way. The entire game is unrealistic and cliché, the opposite of tlou1.
@@kato093 please seek serious help before it's too late man
@@kato093See, people wouldn't have such a problem with all the hate for TLOU2 if assholes like you didn't have to try and prove their superiority over those who DO like the game
This is really interesting. I thought you were going to be against frustration but you ended up approaching it in a way that made me think. Very cool! (I work in game design and your videos are always giving me food for thought.)
TLG is my favourite game of all time. And this is coming from someone that's not a fan of SOTC. But everything in TLG just clicked for me, I never cared for an NPC like I did with Trico, the seamless level design and the intricate animation made it such an immersive experience. And I cried at the end, it just feel so real to me. A modern masterpiece, shame it doesn't get the praise it deserves.
I finished a second playthrough of TLG a couple months ago bc I missed spending time with Trico! The bond you develop with the character through cooperation is just unreal, totally worth the frustrating aspects for me. I don’t think it would be as strong if they had removed the friction from communicating with Trico.
So interesting--I didn't find the flashback to Abby frustrating at all. I was excited to finally learn why the hell she did what she did. BUT I was VERY frustrated and exhausted playing the final stretch of the game, after the farm. I was so mad at Ellie for going back and so upset about what I thought was going to happen. And then it didn't. It was incredibly effective to experience that total exhaustion from the endless revenge quest
Same! And after everything with Ellie it was a great decision to essentially restart the tension in place of the season changes in LoU1.
Also, Abby is actually fucking fun to play. She's fast, she's strong as shit, most of the time she's using automatic weapons and has access to way more resources than Ellie. I don't even care if you hate the story, you gotta be able to appreciate all of her different animations for melee and holy fuck that scene where she's about to be hung but then is saved and turns around in the dark with a hammer in her hand and it flawlessly switches from cutscene to gameplay while a hoard of infected descend upon you... that was insanely fucking cool, Abby's story has some of the coolest moments in the entire game. But I can see how you could fail to appreciate that if you just want to put the controller down and let them eat her because you hate her so much.
But nevertheless, I remember when the last of us 1 came out and the brutal combat animations were a huge point of interest for the game, everyone was talking about how brutal the combat animations were and how gritty and real the combat was. That shit doesn't even compare to some of Abby's combat animations holy shit they are so fucking cool. I just absolutely love how naughty dog puts story into every mechanic and aspect of these games, just their animations tell you soooo much about the characters.
One of the criticisms I see a lot is not that someone hates Abby, but that they hated the game switching and having to play as her when they just wanted to know what happened to Ellie. And I just kept thinking... That exact same thing happens in the first game with Joel nearly dying and having to play as Ellie without knowing if he's even alive or not... the game tells you nothing, it just makes you pretend like nothing even happened, now go hunt a deer. It's almost like they were just testing to see how players would respond to being forced to play as someone else and it worked so well for the story. Winter in the first game is one of the most impactful experiences.
Moments like that is why I'm not very interested in revenge stories. 99% of the time the tension between characters is absolutely God tier, but then, at the end, you either let the asshoe live or you see the protagonist being a sad bad of bones that suicides because he got "moral trauma and revenge have never been satisfying in long run".
There is no deep moral in here, there is no explanation as to why this happened, there are no powerful emotions other that frustration and confusion before realisation that all your work in this game, all those little dudes that got in a way, all of them had ZERO impact, the whole journey was not even for the journey, but to get frustrated to never wanting to even think of this game (or even books and movies series' (Hi, Batman)).
Flashbacks are a notorious problem in story telling because it side tracks you from the main goal of the story which makes it feel like it doesn't matter. It doesn't progress the main narrative at all so people disconnect.
The only way flashbacks work is if they somehow manage to make it feel like its essential information that progresses the main story plot. Just getting superfluous background information about a side character add enough
It's the same problem with dream sequences.
I gotta say I disagree completely, The thing about TLOU is that its a post apocalyptic world where humans revert back to their savage roots in the absence of society and order (besides the QZ's but theyre typically corrupt and terrible in other ways) therefore I do not care about being the bad guy, therefore I do not care about Abby, her dad, her friends, the WLF's, etc. There aren't good and bad guys in this scenario but the game tries to make you feel like Joel is a bad guy the whole time and how you should have sympathy for Abby. I get that she essentially is just as bad as Joel but the difference is that I made a much longer and stronger connection to Joel and I did it first because I played the first game. Not only is it bad enough he dies super early but I get it from a narrative standpoint, the thing I hate about his death is how lazily it was written and how out of character it is for Joel to be in the situation he was in given the way we see him be a paranoid survivalist for the entirety of the first game. Now if that isn't bad enough they make you play as the girl who murdered Joel right in the middle of the most climactic part so far in the story for 10+ hours of gameplay just so you can control her to kick Ellie's ass. A good game design would have been to give the player a choice in this scenario, you don't even need multiple endings just make a cutscene that triggers after the theatre fight and it shows Abby kicking Ellie's ass, I was literally so annoyed that I had to go through with that fight I literally almost turned the game off. And then to make matters even worse, Ellie sets off for revenge which was really impactful given that she destroyed her relationship with Dina to do so just to get all the way to California from Wyoming and then spare Abby. How Lame. It's a disservice to fans of the first game in all honesty and I can understand why some folks like it but as a megafan of the first game that will never be me. Also sorry about this goddamn essay I wrote but TLOU Part 2 gets me going😂
During Guarma I wanted nothing more than to explore the world i was in again.
returning from Guarma felt like returning from a painful trip, and when I got back I wanted a hair cut and to enjoy myself with the game again.
honestly a brilliant way of directing players to actually enjoy the game more. Rockstar needs to make less multiplayer cash cows and more beautiful stories.
I think one of the biggest divides in this topic is that many people view games as toys or that their goal is to be fun. When you see games as a piece of art you're experiencing rather than content you're consuming it opens you up to a more full range of emotions to be explored. If art is a means to synthesize emotions, then why not allow yourself to experience negative emotions as part of that artistic experience? For me personally, allowing myself to do that has made games the most meaningful form of artistic expression I have encountered.
One of the most stressful and emotional experiences I've ever had was Suicide Mission in Mass Effect 2. I had a great time playing this Masterpiece from start to finish. But then when one of my favorite characters die I had to start over and rethink the choices I made. Luckily, I save everyone except Miranda. I almost regret it but I'm glad mordin is alive.
one of the greatest moments in videogame history to this day
I really don't know how anyone managed to lose a character, it was way too easy to have everyone live
@@eneco3965 well you see I dared to not just use only paragon or only renegade options the whole game on account of that being boring and terrible and therefore I could never get Miranda to like me again
Anyways Mass effect is terrible and the paragon renegade system is the absolute worst part because it made everything into be a goody 2 shoes or a dickhead for no reason and any other sense of complexity was shot in the head like a sick barn dog
That was absolutely the most emotional time I’ve ever had in a video game.
@@Ooffoopto each their own. I think the mass effect series and the universe is great.
When ellie was at the farmhouse and decided to go after abby, my first thought was “ellie, ya done fucked up”
From Rick Rubin himself "The best art divides the audience". It's not that frustration itself is good. It's that the most rewarding things in life are difficult to achieve. Nobody climbs a mountain because its easy.
This isn't true though. Just because something is difficult to achieve, doesn't mean that the reward will be worth it, let alone their being an actual reward at all.
Also, the best art is whatever a given individual thinks is the best art. Art is subjective. Division is not at all required.
People treat these platitudes like axioms, and the world just isn't that simple.
@@mechanomics2649 hey im not sure if you knew it, but you are literally agreeing with me in everything that youre saying.
Holy crap, every single video you make blows my mind.
I prefer it when the developers have a strong vision and are uncompromising. Even if the game turns out bad by most people's standards, we can always learn from their attempt and maybe some studio might make it work later.
I like this sentiment, but it's also the mindset that leads to fucktacular shitshows like Shenmue 3.
To say that people enjoy RDR2 because it is frustrating is like saying that people enjoy hiking because it is boring.
I appreciate this take way more than the Sekiro copypasta. I think there's a worrying tendency to judge somebody's _moral character_ by their tolerance for frustration, without accounting for how much frustration they already face from chronic illness, trauma, poverty, etc. I'm at a point where I can't stomach much _grief_ in a narrative because it's not a _healing thought experiment_ for me; my life is materially worsened by the subject of my grief, and has been for the last eight traumatic years. My cup is overflowing. In order to take the edge off, I really need games that focus on experimentation without paddling my ass and laughing at me. I feel trapped, and I play games in search of a meaningful sense of freedom.
Your take on Pathologic is exactly how I feel about Darkest Dungeon. I see the people who love it and desperately want that feeling they get from the game, but it's just too much for me. Great video!
I mean, pathologic 2 has a difculity slider, it's not recommend to use it but it is there
The best tip i have received to play it further is to view the characters as resources. Just like coal to fire up an oven, you have to use the characters and there death to get somewhere.