Why Women Should Complement, Not Compete With Men | Suzanne Venker | The Lila Rose Podcast E125
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- For decades women have been told they need to be the boss-babe, to climb up the corporate ladder, and be the CEO to prove they are equal to men, only to find out that they are not able to focus on what matters most: their family.
Today I sit down with Suzanne Venker, author and relationship coach, to discuss why women should not go through life trying to compete with men. We discuss how to direct your Type A personality to be an asset for your relationships, how to express your femininity without being a doormat, how to choose your career based on your family needs, what women should look for in a man and much more.
Check out Suzanne's Work Here:
www.suzannevenker.com/
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Timestamps:
00:00 Intro Sequence
00:41 Introduction
01:30 Welcome Suzanne!
03:05 What Made Suzanne Interested In Women's Issues
04:58 Directing Your Type A Personality
10:22 Softness vs Weakness
12:49 Hallow
13:24 Practicals for Living More Feminine for Your Husband
17:51 Being Sweet vs. Being a Doormat
20:15 Competitive vs Complimentary
25:21 Mapping Out a Life That Prioritizes Family Life
31:06 What Careers Women Should Consider
33:51 A Controversial Question
37:16 Good Ranchers
38:29 How to Find The Right Spouse
44:54 Is It Okay For The Woman To Make The First Move?
51:46 Should Women "Wait" for Men?
54:36 Seven Weeks Coffee
55:33 The "Choice" of Love vs. The "Feeling" of Love
59:14 Women Should Look For A Man Who Will Provide
1:05:16 Finding a Man Who Has a Plan
1:06:46 Economic Planning for Family
1:12:57 Should You Move Your Family For A Better Life?
1:16:46 Lessons Learned From Her "First Marriage"
1:18:34 Suzanne's Annulment vs Divorce
1:23:21 Questions to Discuss Before Marriage
1:27:57 Avoiding Comparison
1:30:48 Where to Find Suzanne's Work
1:31:09 Wrap Up
1:31:44 EWTN
This is a classic masterpiece interview. Great job ladies! Hope lots of people see this and help them to more successfully navigate their relationships. God bless.
Thank you!
Two of my favorite wise women! 👏🏽
As a young GenZ wife and a former "alpha woman" who worked in construction (and used androgyny/masculine energy as armor), I find that JUST wearing feminine clothing totally and completely changes my attitude and the way I move about the world -- and around my husband. :) I used to scoff at dresses, _especially_ anything flowy or with flowers. And now I mostly wear floral sundresses! They make me FEEL graceful, sweet, and like a kind princess like Disney's Aurora. And THAT translates to my husband, and he loves it.
For we GenZers, the average normal "uniform" of our generation is jeans and a hoodie or T-shirt. But just pay attention to how THAT outfit makes you _feel_ and carry yourself, compared to a lovely dress. It is a _real_ difference.
On the topic of men leaving THEIR number, I have a funny story. When I met my husband I was working in a bar running a roulette type game called "Tri-Wheel". My husband came in sober cabbing for his buddies (he was a complete stranger to me at the time), and they were playing the wheel, and his friends were also flirting with me a bit. After they gave their best drunken cheesy pickup lines my sober husband said that was no way to get a girl like me. He asked me what my lucky number was, then took a Tri-Wheel ticket, wrote his number on the back (unbeknownst to me) and told me "that's your new lucky number," then he slipped it into a slot on the table and walked away. This meant he placed an official bet and after I spun the wheel that round it was a losing ticket, so I had to rip it in half and throw it away. When he came back later he asked if I kept my new lucky number and I realized he had written his number on the back of that ticket. I said no, because I was clueless at the time, and he looked a little hurt but said that was fine and wished me a good night. Well at the end of my shift I dug through the hundreds of slips in the trash from that night and found his number. I texted him right away and the rest is history, been together for 6 years now and married for 2; and I still have that ticket that started it all. So in some cases I believe it's okay to call the man first. :)
May I ask why it took 4 years to get married?
So sweet ❤
@@RCGWho The year before we met he had broken off a 3 year relationship, and almost engagement (he had purchased a ring), after he had been cheated on. It took a while for him to build up that sort of trust again. I also worked on becoming debt free within those 4 years and we spent time growing together and building a strong foundation for our marriage. My husband is also very averse to change and cautious in his decision making, while I'm rash and quick to act on my wishes; so we balance each other out well. I'll admit it wasn't ideal waiting so long but it taught me a lot about patience and that God's timing is wiser than our own.
Yes, because he proved his metal right off the bat
@@RCGWhobecause she called him first. 😂 jk
Suzanne is amazing! Been watching her since becoming a mother. She says and confirms what I've always thought in relation to motherhood and marriage.
My advice to women would be to have some skill set that can allow your work to be scaled down in case you get married and have babies, and scaled up in case you never get married and need to rely on yourself financially. A highly valuable skills base is what you really want.
Great advice do you some examples of what you mean?
@@michellem1700 I didn't have anything terribly specific in mind, but I'm thinking of the kind of work which would enable you to "name your price". Something that comes to mind immediately is wedding photographer -- I know someone who is high in demand and charges a high amount, but takes on relatively few bookings due to being a married mum herself
So glad you have her on! She is a straight shooter who is really looking out for the best when it comes to the family.
Love her! So glad you are having her on. Can’t wait to watch!
Thank you for tuning in!
Love Suzanne! Lila you’re on a roll with the fabulous guests. Keep ‘em coming!
Gosh, at the 24 minute mark...she called me out! Im a 34yo SAHM with 3 littles and I had a career as a teacher till I was 30 and my kids were born. I deffffffinitely say it's "his money" bc I feel so awkward not bringing any money in. Thanks for the correction and I will pray about this attitude I've had regarding our finances.
But if you and your husband share everything. How is it not partly yours?
Everything my wife and I have is done to one another. I have even stopped saying "my X," it is always "our X."
@@ShiniGuraiJoker That's why I said I will bring it to pray and work on it
@@bluecomb5376Is that you feel somewhat shameful about considering it your money since you do mot make it? Or that you should be able to consider it your money as well?
@@ShiniGuraiJoker Both, I suppose. And how to use it in a way that honors his labor but also finding a way to use it in ways that I would spend my "own" money if I still had it ie. buying gifts for loved ones or donating to charities that may appear superfluous
34, SAHM, expecting baby #5
I refer to it as money, not necessarily his or mine, just money. Ultimately I do see God as the provider.
You two together is a masterpiece
Not only is softness not the opposite of strength; but for women, softness *is* their strength. Really think about it. The vast majority of the time a woman's getting what she wants from a man, it's because she was being more feminine than usual and/or than other women around her.
I clicked on this so quickly! Suzanne is great. I love listening to her.
I love Suzanne! Lila, you did a FABULOUS job with your questions. I loved the depth of this podcast ❤
Thanks so much for the encouragement!
Wow I'm a stay at home mum and yes I'm struggling with my phone UA-cam addiction 😅 God help me. This was so interesting and informative ❤
Suzanne tells it like it is and I'm here for it! We need to stop cuddling ourselves into pity.
I really appreciate that you mentioned that there are women who struggle with speaking up for themselves who this message may not be helpful for. I have struggled my entire life with speaking up and setting boundaries with people. This compiled with being told constantly by Christian’s commentators to “submit” and “let your husband lead” left me feeling worthless and unable to have a say. It’s been a tough journey to get where I am a now, but honestly I wish there were more resources for us women who need to speak up and need to have confidence!
This was a great conversation. I believe Suzanne is spot on everything, things are much more simple than people make it out to be. I would also add ask God in prayer for your future spouse with detail. He never disappoints and is always listening to our requests.
Beautifully said. If I may, I’d add pray for your children’s spouses. My girls are still children but from the time they were born I’ve been praying if it is God’s will for them to enter into the sacrament of marriage to please give them a Godly spouse.
This is wonderfully practical advise. I wish I had an aunty like Suzanne.
I'm so glad you enjoyed the episode. Thanks for tuning in!
Same
That's true. Marriage takes more than the feeling of love. It takes patience and forgiveness too.
Thank you so much for bringing us incredible content. I feel interviews like these help me find myself. ❤
Thank you for tuning in! I'm so glad you find them helpful
Gotta say I am loving the line up of people and conversations you been doing, thank you. You are such a blessing Lila rose.
Ladies, accounting is a great flexible career for a family because you can work from home it’s flexible, pays well, and provides a lot of dignity 👍
Very glad you are having Suzanne on. So agree with her point about raising sons and daughters differently. To understand boys is very different than to understand girls.
Liked before I've even started watching! Love her and can already tell it's going to be a good one!!
I would have liked more discussion on how men have reacted to women and have stepped back from areas/positions/spaces that belong to them, especially in the Catholic Church. Great talk. Thank you.
What exactly are those spaces?
I won't say who it is because I don't want her to get any hate, but there's a female influencer who recently posted an Instagram story about not needing a man because she has achieved the lavish life she wants without one. She's 34 years old, and she has also said that she doesn't want kids. I get where she's coming from in this day and age, but I think she's setting herself up for a rough time emotionally in her 40s and 50s. I'm sure she's enjoying all of her notoriety, travel, and brand deals, but those things are ultimately hollow. They're not going to bring real, lasting happiness and contentment.
Amazing episode 👏🏼 thank you both
My husband and I made a financial mistake by purchasing a home based on both our income. This was also around beginning of COVID when prices went up. Now we have a 4 month old and child care is not an option, thankfully we both work remotely.
We moved to be near my family and bought a house that relies on both our incomes. I work from home and we have a nanny part time and grandparents part time. Our son just turned one. Luckily I have flexibility with my job (not micromanaged, good amount of PTO and no meetings before 10am)
I think a-lot of people did that during covid. Don’t beat yourself up❤
I love how Suzanne mentioned not being combative with men in general and your spouse more specifically. Women who have absorbed the cultural messaging that "women need to be more like men" bring that energy to men because they see men being that way towards each other, but men don't act that way TOWARD WOMEN, and they especially don't act that way towards their gf/wife (if they're mature men!). They're at a loss at how to handle women that treat them thar way, so (my opinion is) they just assume they're crazy or get very passive, which then makes the woman more aggressive because she thinks he doesn't understand what she's wanting/isn't asking enough/or he doesn't care.
This was an excellent conversation
Loved the interview! I would love to know more about Suzanne's recommendations to fix marriage "errors".
I love this. I think in hindsight I feel like despite not liking radiology during medschool, I found myself drawn to it and applied for residency and eventually fellowship in radiology where aI can do majority of my work remotely. And hopefully in the future take a more hands on role in my family. I hope many women who desire a family will also see this and be able to see the merit in this approach in life.
Suzanne Venker rocks! ⚡
Suzanne Venker is the best!!
Yay love Suzanne!!
Thank you for changing the thumb nail Lila!!!!
52:57 just changed my brain chemistry. Thank you Suzanne ❤
I love this interview! I chose my career so I can balance home life and I'm 24 without kids. I think that is so important for people to think about and no no one tells you this. As someone who is gen z it's so frustrating. (For anyone who might ask my career is a mental health therapist which is very flexible you can do it PT FT remote/ you can work for your own company or start your own private practice. So flexible for future families) The only thing is you have to get a master degree but that's only an extra 2 years and leave plenty of time to have kids as long as you want 2 or 3 and not 4+.
Reading “Boundaries” by Drs Cloud & Townsend as a Single, set me up for life! Highly recommend this book for Singles and for people who are already married ❤
I am a Homemaker with Engineering degree. I step away from my career after 4 years, while in my 20's, to become a SAHM. I do not regret that at all! Since then I have found 3 paths back into part time work / full time work as my baby enters kindergarden. 1. I take on contracted project management work, very analytical minded work. 2. Sub teach in the High School, especially math & sciences. 3. I work currently part-time as a CSR dispatcher for a plumbing company, it requires a logistics mind and I can do it from home. There is always apath forward with patience and planning. So if your 3 years into your engineering degree like I was when I realized I didn't want to be like my mom, and wanted to be home with my kids, then look for jobs that allow flexibility or (big one here) switch to project management 😅 requires alot of the same courses.
I don't think it's wrong for women to make the first move, also being near or bumping into a man in my opinion isn't a sign and may contribute to singleness in modern-day society. You may get better results if you ask questions about him, make eye contact with him, constantly be around him, and ask for help.
Def ask for help. And smile.
Yes Lila, handkerchiefs, folding fans are still a thing today...especially in the summer. Don't leave home without them! 🤣😂
Loooooooove Suzanne!!!!
I'm an Orthodox Jew and we generally date an average of 6-10 times before getting engaged and then have a 2-4 month engagement. We don't touch at all until we're married.
Dating is very very focused and people are dating looking for their spouse, not to mess around, so you look for the important things. Attraction, compatibility, similar goals and values ect. Might sound crazy but we have an incredibly low divorce rate in our communities!
We also generally know about the person we're going out with prior to the date. Parents or someone else basically inquires beforehand to make sure both sides are compatible, at least on paper. So that saves a lot of dating the wrong person. By the time we go on a date, we know the person in front of us is a normal person with similar values.
Also, I am a type A personality but I always took a step back and let my husband take charge. It has done wonders for our relationship and despite us doing pretty much everything I want, he feels that I defer to him. He started off a more shy, quiet guy and turned into a super confident, business savvy guy. He has always been protective and wanted to provide and I have always stepped back and allowed him to be the masculine one and it really shows in our marriage. We are best friends and always make time for each other despite having 4 kids under 5 and crazy schedules.
Thank you thank you thank you
The question that was raised but never answered: what about women in law and medicine - what does that look like?
The grass is greener where you water it
Dear ladies, thanks for this great episode!
I have one question - how should a woman (and if she should) express that she disagrees with the opinion of her man in public? My man feels like I'm turning my back on him if I express my disagreements with his thoughts/opinions in front of our friends.
Thanks in advance! 🥰
Don't do it in public, please!
Talk to him at home. He may feel hurt because it feels to him that you are disrespecting him, and not trusting his judgment.
The feminine is a question. An invitation.
This was a great interview. Funny though my husband and I met when I was 19 and he was 20. He wrote his number on a piece of paper and said hit me up if you want. After two weeks of debating I did hit him up first. Fast forward we were married 1.5 years later, going on 9 years strong with baby #4 on the way and he is in every way a go getter and provider
I think there are 4 keys to dating for women
-know why you are dating and ideally it should be to marry when you are of appropriate age
-put yourself in scenarios where you would meet the kind of guy you would want to attract - ex. Church
-put yourself out there by making friends and when you find an interest just express interest in getting together "we should hang out sometime" it's casual, takes the pressure away from him of would she want to spend time with me, and then from there he will act on your comment or not and the girl will know how he feels.
-most importantly is IT TAKES EFFORT. I saw too many girls just sitting around and waiting for Mr. right but they didn't engage themselves.
Listening to this as a man and I'm a bit skeptical about the idea that man have to be all sorts of things, be on a money track, be a provider and also not get laid till marriage. It's a good advise for 18th century, but things have changed a bit since then. Now women have a huge amount of legal ways to ignore their side of the deal: divorce, abortions, deny sex. Things look very onesided now and it would be nice if you could notice it.
How does this philosophy fit into disciplining children? Do the same “rules” apply? If so, to both daughters and sons or just sons? When husband is out of the home or at any time?
I agreed with her , women shouldn’t make the first move however, if you do, be subtle about it not aggressive and a-lot of women are.
Im 40 not married no kids just dating someone. I never wanted to be married in my 20s or have babies. I still don’t want babies. It just wasn’t for me just a good man. I was never in a rush to marry due to coming from divorced as a child and all around me.
Depends what the first move is. Met my wife when she slid in under my arm and asked me to walk with her coz a guy was creeping her out with his awkwardness. (She's petite and I was the tallest guy in the vicinity) She tapped into a role I was honour to provide for her. Pretty old school dynamics, but effective.
@@Neoteny374 😂 thats cute! Id probably do the same thing if some guys was being creepy. Thats not aggressive thats just looking for help. Once i ran into the lady’s restroom and hide from a guy! lol
Great advice….. only, when I go quiet so does he🤷🏻♀️
I wish I knew all this in my early 20s. I'm 40 now. But better later than never❤
Yea we couldn't live near family and afford a home without two incomes. We live in a townhome community and the value of our home over the past 2.5 years has gone up almost $100k (a conservative estimate based on comp sales in our community). We couldn't even afford to live here if we didn't buy almost 3 years ago. I honestly do not know who is buying single family homes in our area it's ridiculous. Unfortunately safety is a consideration as well so to be in a relatively low crime area near my family is expensive
I wonder if it's coincidence that this interview so far has a lot fewer views and likes than other Lila Rose content. 21st century women do NOT want to hear this. They don't want to be confronted with the fact that if they want to be the happiest they can be, that IS through yielding to a strong, virtuous man in a healthy marriage. AND through childbearing. Most women these days also don't want to face the fact that if they want those children to be happy, healthy, flourishing adults, then they as the mother are going to have to sacrifice _their_ comfort and _their_ selfish desires for the good of their children.
It is HARD growth to die to self. And being a GOOD mother is dying to yourself and your own self-centered desires every single day. And the world has _never_ wanted to hear that.
Great interview as always! I'm lucky to be a 24-year-old married woman, soon to be SAHM, and I related to SO much of this. I'm the MOST lucky to have been raised by a Christian SAHM, who showed me that it is a beautiful, redeeming, fulfilling vocation -- and the most important mission and purpose a woman could ever choose in this life.
The problem is that men are trained to be passive in relationships. They’ve been through a lot in the past decade and they’re scared to be assertive. Then women feel like they have to step up in the relationship and take initiative. However the narrative is that there are no gender roles when actually there are! Men aren’t made to be passive and submissive and women aren’t made to lead the whole family! There is a healthy way to do this
Agreed with the title. I keep telling women they can't compete with me! And you can imagine what keeps happening. They keep asking, "Are you okay?" I can't compete with women's empathy superpower. It's my Kryptonite. Thanks for your insight, Lila! As always, I "liked" before listening, and immediately downloaded the podcast on my phone.
Jokes aside, I believe both men and women are equal in dignity and we need the complimentary sexes!
Eve is taken from Adam's rib.
Not foot, or head. Right in the middle.
Men and women compliment each other.
Genesis 2:21-24 So the Lord God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. The Lord God then built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman. When he brought her to the man,
the man said:
“This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh;
This one shall be called ‘woman,’
for out of man this one has been taken.”
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.
“If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.”
-Saint Mother Teresa of Calcutta
Mother Mary, the first Christian with her choice to say "yes" to my one and only God's will, I believe she is the number 1 model for sainthood for both men and women. She did God's will perfectly in every respect from the moment of her conception, listening to every single one of His commands. Her choice to say "yes"
Luke 1:38 Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.
to God's will ushered in salvation for the world, and Mary did so knowing the sacrifices and sufferings that would result from her decision, but, humbly, accepted the privilege of containing the God of the Universe her womb, and then becoming Jesus' most intimate friend, companion, and greatest consolation while on Earth. She was the devil's ultimate humiliation! I believe God is the King of the universe, having all power of the universe, but God chose Our Lady, a humble lowly woman the privilege of crushing the head of the devil.
However, when it comes to current feminine models living today, Lila, you are who immediately comes to mind as top inspiration. And I think of you as an inspirational person in general for decency being smart (which I consider intelligence +love, where it's not smart imo, if you don't have a loving heart) and being attractive (which my definition for that is looks + grace...a person can be what people generally perceive as a 10/10 in looks but if he or she is just selfishly in the gym all day and applying all different treatments to look "perfect" with a cruel heart...attractiveness can be a 2/10).
Hope you and your family have a light-filled peaceful joyful wonderful week, Lila! Thank you again for reading my life story novel length posts!
We back to Hallow? I thought we ditched Hallow
But what did you think of the interiew?
What’s wrong with hallow?
Some good points all around.
The example of a guy leaving a number seems like he is making the first move. It seems kind of strange, so I'm assuming in such a scenario, the two are probably near stranges or barely acquainted. In such an instance, maybe the guy is struck in a way where he thinks the woman might be worth pursuing (perhaps he observed something or heard something that made him think that) but he might not be ready to put in a huge amount of effort into pursuing a relationship.
On the other hand, if a man knows a woman rather well, knows she is virtuous and on a similar path to him, then by all means expect the man to take the initiative in pursuing the relationship.
But to suggest that women should "never call" men or that they should never initiate seems like you are saying women should never try to get to know men at all, outside of being asked on a date. It seems almost as if to say a woman shouldn't introduce herself, only men should. Although it is a position some people have, that men and women can never be friends outside of a romantic relationship. But I think women should just know that we are more likely to ask if we know something about you first.
I think she was misunderstanding the giving a number scenario. I think it meant someone passing the dude's number to the girl. As in, they didn't have the personal interaction where they actually exchanged numbers. In the passing the number to the girl, I would consider that he made the first move and then the girl is free to respond by contacting him. After that, I'd let the ball remain on his court.
We women have a huge temptation to push by calling or texting repeatedly, taking the initiative, showing up where you know he hangs out. It can get stalkerly pretty quickly.
I’m glad you all talked about “dropping the handkerchief.” I (a guy in my 30s) have some female friends who complain about not getting asked out, but they don’t make any effort to at least put themselves in the orbit of men they might be interested in. Compared to my older female relatives and acquaintances who made themselves much more available to be approached (in good environments) back in the day. Guys can also be in their own world too and a little dense so it may take a minute for us to notice a woman if we’ve got our own things going on (which a woman should want) and we’re not scurrying around every social event hitting on as many women as possible rather than just the ones we have legitimate interest in as they come.
Neat
Lila and Suzanne I love y’all’s opinions on men and women and on how relationships should operate. However the end of this podcast is very concerning to me. I hear yall rationalizing divorce/annulment because your heart wasn’t into it? So now that’s an acceptable reason to divorce? I didn’t hear any real differentiation between divorce and annulment, it sounds like yall are saying annulment is different. So we’re going to provide people the out by just changing the name and claiming “my heart didn’t fully commit so I can just leave”. That sounds like a cop out. I don’t think we should be rationalizing divorces. The end of this podcast sounds like sin to me. We should place the responsibility on people getting married to take their vows seriously. How are you going to be Christian in every other way but be worldly when it comes to leaving a marriage?
In other words, before you get married it is YOUR responsibility to make sure your heart is in it.
The Catholic church elevates Rules and Tradition. Annulment seems like reframing divorce to me.
RCGWho Right
My parents say that you better have a job just in case a man cheat on you. I have a generational history of men doing that to women which includes my mother and a couple of my aunts.
That’s their history, not yours ❤️
I think alot of women came for cheating and abuse so they told us to always know how to take care of ourselves and don’t rely on a man. My parents taught my sister and i to work. I love working but id step back to but, i can not , not work 😂
Its ok to rely on a good man❤
It's my view God will provide.
Women delicate Deep Beautiful A Modest Woman Peace of Mind Soul for Man , Believe that Co- education have difficulties to build a Relaxing lifestyle .Needs Research that Trustworthy 🆚 Toxic? Both are lovely charming Natures Personalities Like to see any Class like to Class Mates . thanks.
Most women in america make 33,000 a year
So....
Lilas a feminist
That's not an insult anymore. It's like when an SJW accuses people of being racist. Your " type" accuses any woman who isn't a doormat slave of being a feminist
In what sense? Does anyone know how many hours she works? Or how often she travels?
How exactly?
Old school feminist- a woman that works and has a family. Nothing wrong with that❤
Neither one of them said that women can't work at all. The point is that a woman should prioritize her family first. Men should too, but they often end up being the primary provider. I'm a teacher (one of the careers Suzanne endorses). I literally became a teacher primarily because I wanted to one day have a family, and now we homeschool our kids.
"Raise your daughters differently than you raise your sons". Um...no. I'm raising all my children the same way, because I have equal hopes and expectations of them. What a stupid fucking thing to say.
If you ask 2 engineers to build 2 different machines but make the same product, 100% there will be different structure and program being used to operate the machines. Same idea with human being, male and female are same value, but biologically, they are built and operated differently. Each gender has different role , especially in marriage and parenthood. Read these books 'Man are from Mars, women are from Venus', 'Men chase, women choose' or read and listen more to Suzanne 's works, so you will be understand why you should "raise your daughters differently than you raise your sons". There's no school to teach our children about the differences between men and women biologically that fully affect to romantic relationship beside their parents. If you dont know this knowledge to teach them, whatever they can hear loudly in society will let them go to wrong dicretion to who they truely are.
Your sons will never bear children. That major difference alone will affect their future in significant ways. Not preparing them for that is a mistake.