> - Plotholes vs Retcons - ua-cam.com/video/Is5-Hup-iDA/v-deo.html - Understanding Toriyama - ua-cam.com/video/urQd1ZWQICw/v-deo.html - The Creation of Dragon Ball - ua-cam.com/video/LRJsNyw_zLU/v-deo.html - Super Saiyan Tingly Back Explained - ua-cam.com/video/zFqAvcuuCeA/v-deo.html - Origin of Majin Buu - ua-cam.com/video/yRXehTZUW2Q/v-deo.html - Why Future Trunks Hair is Blue - ua-cam.com/video/vBZGf7EuaEw/v-deo.html - Old Bardock vs. New Bardock - ua-cam.com/video/5oav-GZaeCw/v-deo.html
Hey geekdom what is your opinion on rebooting the whole dragon Ball series with new storyline and fixing up the problems. I mean there were lots of unexplored stuff in universe 7 like the demon realm ,frieza's clan , buu's depth origin , depth origin of saiyans etc.
The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet. What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses like Saiyan Disney princess type in a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse? Do you guy's to see Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses an a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse? How do you guy's agree with that idea that Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses?
it was good, but didnt like how they made Goku's origin way too similar as Superman. Like the tv special of Bardock was perfect, the saiyans were coldhearted people.
I don't even really consider it a retcon to be honest. We never knew where he came from and saying he is an alien doesn't change anything about his actual past that we knew.
I would've loved if Bardock went too hell (OK that came out wrong.. But whatever) and faced off against Chilled there instead of this time travel nonsense.
Speaking of super Saiyan bardock the vegeta vs golden frieza fight reminds me so much of bardock vs chilled since he is literally doing what bardock did just walk through the blast I mean he is deflecting them which is different but still
I don’t mind most of the changes, but the ones changing Bardock’s last stand, the creation of the scouters and the tingling back still don’t sit right with me.
The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet. What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses like Saiyan Disney princess type in a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse? Do you guy's to see Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses an a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse? How do you guy's agree with that idea that Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses?
The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet. What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses? How do you guy's agree with that idea?
@@LittleAl016 The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet. What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses like Saiyan Disney princess type in a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse? Do you guy's to see Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses an a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse? How do you guy's agree with that idea that Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses?
IMO the best retcon is Gokus' origins. the whole Saiyan race back story has added so much depth and creativity to Gokus character which is also plot armour for new characters like vegeta and Frieza.
False. Even toriyama says that gt happens in a different universe, and uts easy to identify what is canon or not because some stuff doesn't fit in the timeline.
That means even GT is canon in terms of things that happened in the multiverse (I don't mean the 12 universes I mean a REAL multiverse with different timelines) but just has nothing to do with the main timeline that the original story follows. Kind of like Marvel's 616 universe. Other comics that take place in alternate timelines are canon in the sense that they happened in the multiverse, but they're irrelevant to the timeline we follow
I still think the Potara earrings being non permanent for mortals was a dumb change, it just feels like the stakes of such a transformation/form make it unique and much more of a risk. Now it's just indistinguishable from the fusion dance technique
With the potara, it would mean that we would never see the potara fusion ever because having it would mean losing two main characters to one new one. Do you really never want to see a potara fusion in the actual timeline rather than just games etc.
I don’t think the legendary Super Saiyan can be considered a Retcon A “legend“ by definition is a story that’s used as History… But is unauthenticated. Meaning the legend isn’t necessarily fact.
I think it is a retcon, because earlier when they said legendary super saiyan in the freeza arc, they meant the name of the form was super saiyan and it was called legendary because they heard about it in legends. But later, the legendary super saiyan itself became a different form.
Personally, I find it hilarious that a lot of people put it on a golden pedestal and say things like "I remember the good old days when it was legendary! I remember when it actually meant something!" Right, like everyone and their dog didn't get it 10 episodes after the arc it was introduced in ended. As if it wasn't relegated to bitch tier and got beaten on by pretty much everyone.
@@rajatsingh5714 Not... exactly. Legendary is a term for, well legends. The legendary super saiyan form that we know of has always been called, in series, as Super Saiyan. Its just closer to the original saiyan nature as stated by Vegeta. The ones we see in U7 barring Broly are more of a mutation of the super saiyan form. But they're all technically legendary forms
Very thorough as usual! I definitely think Goku being an alien was a genius move. I don’t actually consider Roshi’s story of the dragon balls a retcon but more that he had been given misinformation-something that happens a lot.
Toriyama did not forget anything, all the interviews about Dragon Ball came after ten twenty years of the original manga..I don't blame him if he really forgot something .. considering that he did a lot Stuff after and before Dragon Ball
@@ac6ut619 My friend it's a small joke on the matter. It's not a negative remake because. The series is full of different characters and stories. Akira didn't think DB series would become a mega-hit.
@@ac6ut619 Despite whatever he has forgot, it still has turned out pretty well apparently within his run, for some one who had to come up things for weekly material is quite well for it to fall into place for the most part.
The OG dragon ball showed young Goku But the broly one showed him matured enough to understand the situation like he was crying when was being sent off He also had a armour on his body which wasn't seen in db
@@tobertcordless2491 Just looked it up, turns out all the scenes with Goku as a baby were anime only, and the first time Toriyama actually showed his backstory was in Minus I think. I could be wrong, but the first thing I looked at said pretty much this.
I haven’t seen the video yet But in case you put the potara “retcon” in the video It just explains why vegito defused in the buu saga And it also shows that shin is an inexperienced supreme kai because he thought that the potara worked on mortals like it did with gods
It wasn’t Shin that brought up the possibility of using potaras, it was The Elder Kai. In fact, he gave Goku his potaras to use with Gohan. So it only goes to show that even Elder Kai, the Kaioshin of 15 generations ago, didn’t know about the potara limit.
This video reminds me of all those retcons in Ben 10. Ben and Gwen were originally going to be a couple. But they changed it to them being cousins. This also reminds of a retcon in Star Wars. They were originally going to make Padme a Jedi. But they changed their minds because they could not fit it into the story.
When Vegeta was talking about the Legendary Super Saiyan, he wasnt talking about Broly's version. He was talking about the original, first Super Saiyan - who could only maintain his power by staying in ape form. If it were anything else then the writers wouldve alluded back to that speech.
To be real i like the Storytelling of Oda better than Toriyamas😅 Oda knows how he wants to Start and Finish, Toriyama had to many detours because of this the retcons happen and some plotholes.
The minus energy is foreshadowed by Old Kaioshin's comment in Z that overusing the Dragon Balls is dangerous. edit: Or rather, the GT crew took that idea to create the concept of minus energy
@@ironoverheat465 it's hinted at by him just like how Piccolo being an alien is hinted at the 23rd budokai during his fight with Kami but, Elder Kaioshin never outright says theres Minus Energy in the balls making it a retcon
@@flipzzilla4556 It's not a retcon. To be a retcon it would have to change something that's already been established otherwise. They added information that wasn't there previously (at least in the full concept, the principle was already there by Old Kaioshin), they didn't change anything, they added lore.
@@ironoverheat465 it is a retcon because throughout Dragon Balls entirety the dragon balls were never meant to have Minus energy but then all of a sudden they have Minus energy in GT that means it's a retcon
I am under the mindset that the tingly back thing was just one method, and one that the U7 Saiyans never really discovered. Even with Goten and Present Trunks considered. And it did come about in-universe (no pun intended) from Cabba describing the sensation to Caulifa, to which she then did her best to copy.
I liked the addition of Android #16 being modelled after Gero's dead son, also explained why 16 appeared more peaceful yet had his mind set on destroying Goku.
It's really impressive. Toriyama was a genius. He didn't start out by planning many histories, lore, and relationships like other mangas. He created stuff along the way, and he made it work.
The fact that now we are supposed they split inside Buu by accident at that exact timing is only scratching the surface of the problem. If you read into Grand Kai's dialogue - Super's Potara thing is not even a retcon, it's a borderline plot hole. There is no way that he pulled out of his ass that information about entities transforming and possibly shortening their lifespan if he didn't have decent knowledge about mortals using it to fuse. Like right now, after watching Super, it's basically impossible for me to read those late Buu saga chapters and believe that he was just theorizing all of this.
I was watching OG dragon ball and I noticed that when Metallitron scanned goku, it said he couldn't recognize it because he was an alien. Maybe he did have some idea
I’m honestly hoping we get a zalama reveal in the future. I think it’s likely with how power super Shenron is. That zalama could very easily be one of the top 5 most powerful being Whis mentions.
I agree with Goku being an alien is the biggest retcon. Two other retcons that stuck with me: - Trunks suddenly mentions a Dr. Gero who Goku had let go, while this Dr. Gero was never before seen in Dragon Ball. - Beerus turned out to be the one was ultimately responsible for planet Vegeta’s destruction as he ordered Frieza to do it.
The most recent retcon is huge and is great. It adds a new context to the end of z and goku's actions make so much more sense. It doesn't contradict anything either. Say what you will about the Moro arc, (I personally love it) but the conclusion of it was awesome
The Bibidi/Babidi retcon can easily be "explained". Its just like how King Picollo is the Father of Picollo but Picollo is also the reincarnation of King Picollo :P Also the Bibidi not being the Creator of Majin Buu is also easy to "explain" Bibidi just said he constructed Majin Buu. Either he didnt understand where Buu came from or he lied to make himself look better :P
I read somewhere that the Goku alien retcon was to give some Superman and american superhero elements to Dragon Ball. It makes sense because Goku became a superhero to the world and then the universe and now the multiverse.
I never thought of Goku not going ssj3 against Vegeta as a retcon, I mean it did take him 5 minutes of powering up to get there and i don't think Vegeta in his Majin state would let him do that.
My least favorite is the entire existence of super. The entire point of the buu saga was to show that our heroes have become stronger than the gods themselves and could even defeat the ancient terror of the universe. But lol nope cat dude op and now fat bbw shit stain can fight with goku and vegeta
I remember Saiyans were potrayed as a race of actually brutal warriors and nightmares back in early Z. The fact that they changed the story around where they became this wholesome subservient group of slaves doesn't sit right with me. It takes away from Goku and makes him seem less special as perhaps the first saiyan who discarded his bloodlust and went against his nature. It was a good contrast. Now it's like...yea he's just a saiyan kid who landed on Earth. And him going against his brother makes it seem less impactful.
Direcode Vincent Were they not always slaves? And are they not still brutal warriors? Vegeta, Raditz, and Napa were working for Frieza when they came to earth and planet Vegeta was already destroyed. Even after the fact of the Bardock backstory and them being slaves to king colds empire , they still killed all the natives of planet Vegetta. Goku is still only the way he is because he bumped his head as a kid, which was always the original story was it not? I’m not being facetious I’m genuinely asking.
@@YackAttack290 If you go back and watch the early potrayal of saiyans , they were pretty heartless all around with no remorse and cold blooded. There was basically no difference between them and Frieza. Broly movie made them out to be way more wholesome than they originally were like they're just another random civilization. Infact Goku's origin story itself was impacted by this change because then Raditz asking Goku about his mission on Earth that he was sent for makes no sense.And bumping his head and losing that natural, wild saiyan behaviour was even alluded to forever. But DBS Broly just made it a Man of Steel copycat with Bardock and Gine just sending him off.
@@rockmorales No, they really were a lot less Savage and brutal in the Broly movie. King Vegeta literally got insulted in His own kingdom by paragus and just let paragus go with no consequences and let Broly live and just exiled him away. Compare this to the old Broly movie where King Vegeta tried to kill both paragus and Broly because Broly was a threat and was born super strong. We didn't even see the Saiyans kill anyone. The only Saiyan who killed someone was paragus.
Regarding the "bad air" thing, Goku later notices that while Goten and Trunks were in separate pods, Buu had Gotenks's outfit, meaning they defused some time after being absorbed. I'm not sure if the original Japanese has any major differences, but Goku says that "Fusion is possible in here" and reprimands Vegeta shortly after for breaking the Potara. While we can look back on this and say that it means it was always timed, it feels more like Toriyama never giving us a straight answer and leaving it open for interpretation.
9:17 - I don't consider Roshi's story of the origins of the dragon balls to be a retcon because Roshi says it's a myth, that it's just something he heard. He doesn't say it's the absolute truth.
There is a DB episode where Goku and Kuririn battle a robot with a sword. The Robot scans Goku and its written on the vision of the robot that Goku is an Alien
Not really a RETCON but Piccolo goes from hating Goku and wanting to kill him to training Gohan and being a member of the team in the Saiyin Arc. He completely forgot about his hatred for Goku.
I'm glad you said the Legendary Super Saiyan was a debatable retcon, now I dont have to say anything about it. The retcons that annoying me was the Dragon Ball Minus retcon and Freeza not training at all during his life and being a super duper fighting prodigy. Dont get me wrong I like Freeza but come on He goes from being beat up by SSJ Goku and being one shotted by SSJ Trunks to being stronger than SSB Goku in 4 months. I mean come on 4 months. I would of accepted 1 year of training but even then 1 year is unbelievable as well. I guess Freezer is just a Super Duper Super Duper Duper Prodigy but Majin Buu is my favorite.
Man i been a dragon ball fan since i can remember, watching the spanish dub then the english ones! But im still learning about the franchise to this day. Thank you geekdom.
Nice thing is with some retcons, it makes total sense why; Like you can believe Radtz was told it was a Metor by Frieza, and that Radtz not look deeper then that.
What about the retcon of how Goku didnt actually kill Frieza even though we saw him kill Frieza. It was changed and he was alive and floating around space.
I always felt that trunks hair was made different as a way to show the difference between the different trunks in different archs. It makes it easier to know where at in the story trunks is in
I’m not sure some things like Goku being an alien or Planet Vegeta being destroyed by a meteor are retcons. The characters and audience didn’t know those to begin with. It makes sense Raditz wouldn’t have known what happened to Planet Vegeta since it was a cover up. Cell not dying when Goku blew off his head was a retcon.
Like many people, i saw DBZ before the original series, they telecasted DB after DBZ and GT here so child me was hella confused. But even then, I felt a tone shift from DB to DBZ.
@geekdom101 as far as the scouters are concerned, i know in the English version of the movie Frieza displayed the scouters saying “these are upgraded models that are technically advanced compared to the ones you (the Sayains) have been using already
Kami and the Piccolos just being slug men, half-saiyans not having tails after Gohan, Launch not being in dbz until post production. Toriyama forgets a lot of crap. Another huge retcon, thanks to the bs that is Super, is that Beerus now asked Frieza to destroy planet Vegeta - that wipes out so much of what was established in dbz. It's also funny how people complain that GT isn't canon because it didn't come from Toriyama, but don't know Super isn't canon, either. Super's stories were made by several different people, were very loosely based on notes of Toriyama's
Yes, they were lied to, but geekdom said that was the meteor was the original idea, before frieza was even a thing. So frieza got retconned to being the one who blew it up.
Weird thing about that is that you would think the Saiyans would have the technology or strong enough fighters to blow up the meteor before it reaches Planet Vegeta.
I still can't figure out why they added 21 later the bardock movie, where he is in the past and is the first SSJ and the reason why Frieza is scared of SSJ, cause without this TimeTravel thing that would never happen but anyway, we love DB
Is Goku being an alien really a retcon? It was never intended until later in the series but he has always been different than all the other humans. I think it was more of a cool idea too explain Gokus origins that were already mysterious enough. And the meteor was later brought back as a cover up story. So even if it was retconned it is still part of the series
it's def a retcon. Goku was a Son Wukong (Monkey King) homage/parody. His early concept art had him as a little monkey boy. early db is clearly more a fantasy based adventure. While Goku's origins are never explained, he's just a fantasy creature. And the readers would know of the Monkey King and the epic tale Journey to the west (all of the original characters are based on characters from that tale) Goku and Piccolo being aliens was because Toriyama needed to continue the series further but no had room left to go on Earth. Goku had already become stronger than Kami and beaten the Demon King twice. Where do you go from there? Well space of course. And Viola, aliens. Plus Piccolo has more plot holes in his retcon into an alien than Goku does
Goku's fate on Namek after he "killed" Freeza. It looked for certain that Dragonball would end with both dead and Namek destroyed, but it got retconned in the Trunks arc.
My own head canon explanation for the tingly back feeling was basically, different universe, different rules. Of course I've seen the video referenced when talking about it, but my own thoughts where before I saw it.
Unrelated as it's a plothole not a retcon but can we talk about the scene in the original DB where Goku jumps and grabs the four star dragon ball before it could scatter? Like wtf why don't they always do that with all of them? Is that anime-only?
11:00 in the broly movie they say that it was destroyed by a meteor too. And I’m pretty sure he said he didn’t care or something. So I guess he believed what the frieza force told em and just told goku that, which if it’s true fits in pretty well
That last one is good because the fact that Toriyama never attended for Goku to be an alien until the last moment proves my point to the comic book fans that Goku was never based off of Superman to begin with I say Gohan is the closest to Superman
Is that really a retcon because after blowing up the planet, frieza told the surviving saiyans that a meteor struck it. So that falls in line with what they would've believed. I think the only thing that was retconned was the year it happened, because raditx says it was 3 years ago while other sources say it happened when goku was still a baby.
I wonder if Toriyama implies that Babidi is almost the second coming of Bibidi, and that they both essentially summon Buu into existence. Like Buu is more along the lines of an force and then is conjured through magic into the form Majin Buu form they take. After all, the Majin symbol is Babidi’s magic right? Buu was basically branded with it, I would assume.
The problem with the tingling back feeling is not the explanation u gave,the problem is that Goku and Vegeta had to work their asses off to get that form,unlike U6 saiyans who simply went SSJ and then went toe to toe with SSJG and SSB..
Eh I wouldn’t really care if there are retcons regarding ssj, especially because it was a form that was only achieved every 1000 years by 1 special saiyan but the cell/android saga just throws that out the window and says “let’s give everyone ssj”
What about the retcon on gogeta and vegito power? Thought they told us that now they’re equal in power and that the only real difference is time limit because we don’t know gogeta timelimit
I think toriyama had no idea that dragon ball was gonna get this big so he had to keep creating as he go to keep up. It’s like that lie that keeps getting bigger & bigger the more detail it gets. I honest don’t believe the man even keeps up with anything he’s created for the series. The fans take his series more serious than him
so in conclusion, to be successful as toriyama with dragonball, don't plan stuff, just add whatever bullshit that comes after in your head and try to make sense out of it
I don't think #7 is a recon so much as an expansion on previously established lore. After all, in that scene, they do call back to Potara lasting forever and that being why Vegeta was adamantly against it, with Gowasu explaining the time limit.
>
- Plotholes vs Retcons - ua-cam.com/video/Is5-Hup-iDA/v-deo.html
- Understanding Toriyama - ua-cam.com/video/urQd1ZWQICw/v-deo.html
- The Creation of Dragon Ball - ua-cam.com/video/LRJsNyw_zLU/v-deo.html
- Super Saiyan Tingly Back Explained - ua-cam.com/video/zFqAvcuuCeA/v-deo.html
- Origin of Majin Buu - ua-cam.com/video/yRXehTZUW2Q/v-deo.html
- Why Future Trunks Hair is Blue - ua-cam.com/video/vBZGf7EuaEw/v-deo.html
- Old Bardock vs. New Bardock - ua-cam.com/video/5oav-GZaeCw/v-deo.html
Yes
"Two days ago" hhhhmmmmmm?
Hey geekdom what is your opinion on rebooting the whole dragon Ball series with new storyline and fixing up the problems. I mean there were lots of unexplored stuff in universe 7 like the demon realm ,frieza's clan , buu's depth origin , depth origin of saiyans etc.
@@mahdihossain8520 No. Rebooting Dragon Ball? Nope.
It's fun the way it is with retcons
The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet.
What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses like Saiyan Disney princess type in a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
Do you guy's to see Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses an a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
How do you guy's agree with that idea that Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses?
So in conclusion retcons can be good or bad. And Goku being an alien was a genius retcon
I do wonder where the show would go if that wasn’t the case.
it was good, but didnt like how they made Goku's origin way too similar as Superman. Like the tv special of Bardock was perfect, the saiyans were coldhearted people.
Frieza too was great
I don't even really consider it a retcon to be honest. We never knew where he came from and saying he is an alien doesn't change anything about his actual past that we knew.
@Daniel Medjedovic Agreed, Dragonball Minus was unnecessary, it didn't need to happen.
i can't imagine what it was like in 1989 when it was revealed Goku was an alien.
prob pretty cool
@@Geekdom101 you don’t remember? I mean weren’t you a kid back then?
@@itsyaboi7387 by the time he got into Dragonball I'm sure he already knew Goku was an alien
Probably shocking since most Japanese people were aware of JttW and this took a massive departure from that.
just know that after that point, the whole show was turned upside down
Originally, Raditz told Goku that he was sent to Earth to conquer it. But in DB Minus, we are shown that he was sent to Earth to survive from Freeza.
I kinda wish they combined both. Bardock & Gine pretend they’re sending Goku to Earth to conquer it when it’s in fact just to sneakily escape Freeza.
Well how would Raditz know otherwise? That's probably just what he assumed because he wasn't there when they sent Goku off. He was with Vegeta.
@@Yandeezy that's kinda what they did. They let people think it was cause he was weak ect.
The only good thing from "Episode of Bardock" was Chilled. I like the idea of him being one of Frieza's ancestors.
and ssj Bardock was cool even tho it didn't make sense but yea everything else was stupid
I would've loved if Bardock went too hell (OK that came out wrong.. But whatever) and faced off against Chilled there instead of this time travel nonsense.
@@shadowofthenorthstar989 actually ssj bardock was badass but badass doesn't help to make sense in these kind of stories
@@devilfromhell8546 I admitted it didn't make sense lol did you read?
Speaking of super Saiyan bardock the vegeta vs golden frieza fight reminds me so much of bardock vs chilled since he is literally doing what bardock did just walk through the blast I mean he is deflecting them which is different but still
I don’t mind most of the changes, but the ones changing Bardock’s last stand, the creation of the scouters and the tingling back still don’t sit right with me.
The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet.
What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses like Saiyan Disney princess type in a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
Do you guy's to see Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses an a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
How do you guy's agree with that idea that Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses?
Bardock did have his last stand though its literally in the broly movie
I consider the stuff regarding Bardock and the Souters to be broad strokes, anyways.
The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet.
What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses?
How do you guy's agree with that idea?
@@LittleAl016 The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet.
What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses like Saiyan Disney princess type in a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
Do you guy's to see Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses an a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
How do you guy's agree with that idea that Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses?
IMO the best retcon is Gokus' origins. the whole Saiyan race back story has added so much depth and creativity to Gokus character which is also plot armour for new characters like vegeta and Frieza.
honestly, dragonball seems like a series where "Cannon" without context is meaningless, everything is cannon, only question is to what continuity
good!
true
False. Even toriyama says that gt happens in a different universe, and uts easy to identify what is canon or not because some stuff doesn't fit in the timeline.
That means even GT is canon in terms of things that happened in the multiverse (I don't mean the 12 universes I mean a REAL multiverse with different timelines) but just has nothing to do with the main timeline that the original story follows. Kind of like Marvel's 616 universe. Other comics that take place in alternate timelines are canon in the sense that they happened in the multiverse, but they're irrelevant to the timeline we follow
*Canon
Don’t forget about the bad dub decision of Bardock as a “brilliant scientist” lol!
Dub changes aren't retcons bro.
Geekdom101 I know I was joking
Austin Smith no you wasn’t
@@haljordan3545 "lol"
I still think the Potara earrings being non permanent for mortals was a dumb change, it just feels like the stakes of such a transformation/form make it unique and much more of a risk. Now it's just indistinguishable from the fusion dance technique
I agree. There's nothing stopping them from using the earrings whenever they want now.
With the potara, it would mean that we would never see the potara fusion ever because having it would mean losing two main characters to one new one. Do you really never want to see a potara fusion in the actual timeline rather than just games etc.
DB Super: You have to be a Kai to permanently fuse!
Vegito & Us the audience: Say WHAT?!!
Unless you wish to be separated that’s the only way for a Kai to defuse
I don’t think the legendary Super Saiyan can be considered a Retcon
A “legend“ by definition is a story that’s used as History… But is unauthenticated. Meaning the legend isn’t necessarily fact.
I think it is a retcon, because earlier when they said legendary super saiyan in the freeza arc, they meant the name of the form was super saiyan and it was called legendary because they heard about it in legends. But later, the legendary super saiyan itself became a different form.
Rajat Singh true true
Personally, I find it hilarious that a lot of people put it on a golden pedestal and say things like "I remember the good old days when it was legendary! I remember when it actually meant something!"
Right, like everyone and their dog didn't get it 10 episodes after the arc it was introduced in ended. As if it wasn't relegated to bitch tier and got beaten on by pretty much everyone.
Rajat Singh
I agree to an extent, but in this video Geekdom is talking about the WHO not the form
@@rajatsingh5714 Not... exactly.
Legendary is a term for, well legends. The legendary super saiyan form that we know of has always been called, in series, as Super Saiyan. Its just closer to the original saiyan nature as stated by Vegeta. The ones we see in U7 barring Broly are more of a mutation of the super saiyan form.
But they're all technically legendary forms
I kinda like how there a multiple interpretations for "Who is the legendary SSJ?" kinda keeps the legend, a legend.
I mean Paragus thought it was a legend until vegeta went super Saiyan
Very thorough as usual! I definitely think Goku being an alien was a genius move.
I don’t actually consider Roshi’s story of the dragon balls a retcon but more that he had been given misinformation-something that happens a lot.
DB Retcons are really Akira Toriyama forgetting stuff.
Well that's part of it. On one hand he can forget things altogether(I.E Launch). Or he may forget something and then change it with mixed results.
@@Naruku2121 true
Toriyama did not forget anything, all the interviews about Dragon Ball came after ten twenty years of the original manga..I don't blame him if he really forgot something .. considering that he did a lot Stuff after and before Dragon Ball
@@ac6ut619 My friend it's a small joke on the matter. It's not a negative remake because. The series is full of different characters and stories. Akira didn't think DB series would become a mega-hit.
@@ac6ut619 Despite whatever he has forgot, it still has turned out pretty well apparently within his run, for some one who had to come up things for weekly material is quite well for it to fall into place for the most part.
The OG dragon ball showed young Goku
But the broly one showed him matured enough to understand the situation
like he was crying when was being sent off
He also had a armour on his body which wasn't seen in db
Wasn't that baby Goku scene anime only? Been a while since I read the manga
@@tobertcordless2491 Just looked it up, turns out all the scenes with Goku as a baby were anime only, and the first time Toriyama actually showed his backstory was in Minus I think. I could be wrong, but the first thing I looked at said pretty much this.
The eternal buu retcon is cool makes him more menacing and mysterious even with all the gods around
I haven’t seen the video yet
But in case you put the potara “retcon” in the video
It just explains why vegito defused in the buu saga
And it also shows that shin is an inexperienced supreme kai because he thought that the potara worked on mortals like it did with gods
Well, he did.
it didn't need any explaining thought, when it happened never gave it a second thought it was cause they got inside buu.
It wasn’t Shin that brought up the possibility of using potaras, it was The Elder Kai. In fact, he gave Goku his potaras to use with Gohan. So it only goes to show that even Elder Kai, the Kaioshin of 15 generations ago, didn’t know about the potara limit.
Aladdin Sane
Really?
from what I remember shin was the one that told goku potara fusion was permanent
Thank you it isn’t a retcon.
This video reminds me of all those retcons in Ben 10. Ben and Gwen were originally going to be a couple. But they changed it to them being cousins. This also reminds of a retcon in Star Wars. They were originally going to make Padme a Jedi. But they changed their minds because they could not fit it into the story.
When Vegeta was talking about the Legendary Super Saiyan, he wasnt talking about Broly's version. He was talking about the original, first Super Saiyan - who could only maintain his power by staying in ape form. If it were anything else then the writers wouldve alluded back to that speech.
To be real i like the Storytelling of Oda better than Toriyamas😅 Oda knows how he wants to Start and Finish, Toriyama had to many detours because of this the retcons happen and some plotholes.
The Ultimate Dragon Balls existence in GT and The Minus Energy being in the Dragon Balls, I'm just shinning some light on GT
Oh yeah, GT is AWESOME
The minus energy is foreshadowed by Old Kaioshin's comment in Z that overusing the Dragon Balls is dangerous. edit: Or rather, the GT crew took that idea to create the concept of minus energy
@@ironoverheat465 it's hinted at by him just like how Piccolo being an alien is hinted at the 23rd budokai during his fight with Kami but, Elder Kaioshin never outright says theres Minus Energy in the balls making it a retcon
@@flipzzilla4556 It's not a retcon. To be a retcon it would have to change something that's already been established otherwise. They added information that wasn't there previously (at least in the full concept, the principle was already there by Old Kaioshin), they didn't change anything, they added lore.
@@ironoverheat465 it is a retcon because throughout Dragon Balls entirety the dragon balls were never meant to have Minus energy but then all of a sudden they have Minus energy in GT that means it's a retcon
I am under the mindset that the tingly back thing was just one method, and one that the U7 Saiyans never really discovered. Even with Goten and Present Trunks considered. And it did come about in-universe (no pun intended) from Cabba describing the sensation to Caulifa, to which she then did her best to copy.
Well Goku basically confirmed that was a thing when talking with Caulifa. So...It is a U7 thing if you take that exchange seriously.
Nah the tingly back thing is stupid.
@@Naruku2121 I thought only the U6 Saiyans do that tingly back stuff? Anyway, I still do not like the tingly back stuff, it is cringy.
@@aspiknf That's your opinion.
I liked the addition of Android #16 being modelled after Gero's dead son, also explained why 16 appeared more peaceful yet had his mind set on destroying Goku.
It's really impressive. Toriyama was a genius. He didn't start out by planning many histories, lore, and relationships like other mangas. He created stuff along the way, and he made it work.
The fact that now we are supposed they split inside Buu by accident at that exact timing is only scratching the surface of the problem. If you read into Grand Kai's dialogue - Super's Potara thing is not even a retcon, it's a borderline plot hole. There is no way that he pulled out of his ass that information about entities transforming and possibly shortening their lifespan if he didn't have decent knowledge about mortals using it to fuse. Like right now, after watching Super, it's basically impossible for me to read those late Buu saga chapters and believe that he was just theorizing all of this.
I was watching OG dragon ball and I noticed that when Metallitron scanned goku, it said he couldn't recognize it because he was an alien. Maybe he did have some idea
I’m honestly hoping we get a zalama reveal in the future. I think it’s likely with how power super Shenron is. That zalama could very easily be one of the top 5 most powerful being Whis mentions.
As a martial artist myself the “tingly back” explanation for turning SSJ does make sense...they just didn’t explain it very well in the series
I agree with Goku being an alien is the biggest retcon. Two other retcons that stuck with me:
- Trunks suddenly mentions a Dr. Gero who Goku had let go, while this Dr. Gero was never before seen in Dragon Ball.
- Beerus turned out to be the one was ultimately responsible for planet Vegeta’s destruction as he ordered Frieza to do it.
The most recent retcon is huge and is great. It adds a new context to the end of z and goku's actions make so much more sense. It doesn't contradict anything either. Say what you will about the Moro arc, (I personally love it) but the conclusion of it was awesome
I always just considered the "Tingly Back" explanation for Super Saiyan as being exclusive to the Universe Six Saiyan's biology.
Honestly that’s the only way to make that concept make sense.
Except for some reason Goku is aware of that method with one of his exchanges with Caulifa and basically validates it some how.
*Day 47 of wanting an OnlyFans announcement from Geekdom*
Underrated comment of the month
Day 107
Great analysis!..... *Brilliant!*
I love the use of the Dokkan Battle card arts in this video!
The Bibidi/Babidi retcon can easily be "explained". Its just like how King Picollo is the Father of Picollo but Picollo is also the reincarnation of King Picollo :P Also the Bibidi not being the Creator of Majin Buu is also easy to "explain" Bibidi just said he constructed Majin Buu. Either he didnt understand where Buu came from or he lied to make himself look better :P
I read somewhere that the Goku alien retcon was to give some Superman and american superhero elements to Dragon Ball. It makes sense because Goku became a superhero to the world and then the universe and now the multiverse.
I never thought of Goku not going ssj3 against Vegeta as a retcon, I mean it did take him 5 minutes of powering up to get there and i don't think Vegeta in his Majin state would let him do that.
Dragonball theroy: bibide, babide, buu😄
Most characters names are a play on words
gibby yea I know🙂
I wonder how they will officially retcon the 5 years gab Bulma hasn't seen Goku in the 10 year gab
My least favorite is the entire existence of super. The entire point of the buu saga was to show that our heroes have become stronger than the gods themselves and could even defeat the ancient terror of the universe. But lol nope cat dude op and now fat bbw shit stain can fight with goku and vegeta
Thank you Geekdom! You never fail to disappoint with Dragonball history no one is touching you when it comes to this.
It’s nice to see toriyama improve and adapt as the series grows. Good stuff
I remember Saiyans were potrayed as a race of actually brutal warriors and nightmares back in early Z. The fact that they changed the story around where they became this wholesome subservient group of slaves doesn't sit right with me. It takes away from Goku and makes him seem less special as perhaps the first saiyan who discarded his bloodlust and went against his nature. It was a good contrast. Now it's like...yea he's just a saiyan kid who landed on Earth. And him going against his brother makes it seem less impactful.
Yeah but that's not really a retcon. They were still brutal savages who slaughtered people
Direcode Vincent Were they not always slaves? And are they not still brutal warriors? Vegeta, Raditz, and Napa were working for Frieza when they came to earth and planet Vegeta was already destroyed. Even after the fact of the Bardock backstory and them being slaves to king colds empire , they still killed all the natives of planet Vegetta. Goku is still only the way he is because he bumped his head as a kid, which was always the original story was it not? I’m not being facetious I’m genuinely asking.
@@YackAttack290 If you go back and watch the early potrayal of saiyans , they were pretty heartless all around with no remorse and cold blooded. There was basically no difference between them and Frieza. Broly movie made them out to be way more wholesome than they originally were like they're just another random civilization. Infact Goku's origin story itself was impacted by this change because then Raditz asking Goku about his mission on Earth that he was sent for makes no sense.And bumping his head and losing that natural, wild saiyan behaviour was even alluded to forever. But DBS Broly just made it a Man of Steel copycat with Bardock and Gine just sending him off.
@@lancevance6346 No, wrong, because they were still savages even in the broly movie.
@@rockmorales No, they really were a lot less Savage and brutal in the Broly movie. King Vegeta literally got insulted in His own kingdom by paragus and just let paragus go with no consequences and let Broly live and just exiled him away. Compare this to the old Broly movie where King Vegeta tried to kill both paragus and Broly because Broly was a threat and was born super strong. We didn't even see the Saiyans kill anyone. The only Saiyan who killed someone was paragus.
Love the dokkan artworks in the vid
Regarding the "bad air" thing, Goku later notices that while Goten and Trunks were in separate pods, Buu had Gotenks's outfit, meaning they defused some time after being absorbed. I'm not sure if the original Japanese has any major differences, but Goku says that "Fusion is possible in here" and reprimands Vegeta shortly after for breaking the Potara. While we can look back on this and say that it means it was always timed, it feels more like Toriyama never giving us a straight answer and leaving it open for interpretation.
9:17 - I don't consider Roshi's story of the origins of the dragon balls to be a retcon because Roshi says it's a myth, that it's just something he heard. He doesn't say it's the absolute truth.
There is a DB episode where Goku and Kuririn battle a robot with a sword. The Robot scans Goku and its written on the vision of the robot that Goku is an Alien
Not really a RETCON but Piccolo goes from hating Goku and wanting to kill him to training Gohan and being a member of the team in the Saiyin Arc. He completely forgot about his hatred for Goku.
I'm a little surprised to didn't go over zen Kai boost. I'm waiting for the retcon of Bulma is a tuffle and that's why she's smart
Atleast the Saiyan meteor thing had an explanation because Freiza lied so he could control the remaining saiyans
I like how the author also finds out things😂 like how he ‘found’ out Goku is an alien
I'm glad you said the Legendary Super Saiyan was a debatable retcon, now I dont have to say anything about it. The retcons that annoying me was the Dragon Ball Minus retcon and Freeza not training at all during his life and being a super duper fighting prodigy. Dont get me wrong I like Freeza but come on He goes from being beat up by SSJ Goku and being one shotted by SSJ Trunks to being stronger than SSB Goku in 4 months. I mean come on 4 months. I would of accepted 1 year of training but even then 1 year is unbelievable as well. I guess Freezer is just a Super Duper Super Duper Duper Prodigy but Majin Buu is my favorite.
I think these retcons are just like real life, in life as well, one can be misinformed, one can misunderstand and incorrect.
When I listen to hype music get a tingly back feeling. I'm close to transforming.
Man i been a dragon ball fan since i can remember, watching the spanish dub then the english ones! But im still learning about the franchise to this day. Thank you geekdom.
Nice thing is with some retcons, it makes total sense why; Like you can believe Radtz was told it was a Metor by Frieza, and that Radtz not look deeper then that.
Are we not gonna talk about the biggest retcon? Bardocks legendary headband/toras armband
What about the retcon of how Goku didnt actually kill Frieza even though we saw him kill Frieza. It was changed and he was alive and floating around space.
I'm so confused why super is considered cannon and GT is not. It really sounds like Toriyama really didn't have a lot to do with super.
I always felt that trunks hair was made different as a way to show the difference between the different trunks in different archs. It makes it easier to know where at in the story trunks is in
I’m not sure some things like Goku being an alien or Planet Vegeta being destroyed by a meteor are retcons. The characters and audience didn’t know those to begin with. It makes sense Raditz wouldn’t have known what happened to Planet Vegeta since it was a cover up.
Cell not dying when Goku blew off his head was a retcon.
What's really amazing is that King Kai actually has wings 1:23
King Kai telling Goku that he could have taught him Instant Transmition.
Like many people, i saw DBZ before the original series, they telecasted DB after DBZ and GT here so child me was hella confused. But even then, I felt a tone shift from DB to DBZ.
What about the part in dbs where vegeta meet beerus when he was like 8 then in the broly movie vegeta was just a baby
Hope everyone makes it to Ret Con this year
do a video on the legendary supersaiyans!
@geekdom101 as far as the scouters are concerned, i know in the English version of the movie Frieza displayed the scouters saying “these are upgraded models that are technically advanced compared to the ones you (the Sayains) have been using already
Kami and the Piccolos just being slug men, half-saiyans not having tails after Gohan, Launch not being in dbz until post production. Toriyama forgets a lot of crap. Another huge retcon, thanks to the bs that is Super, is that Beerus now asked Frieza to destroy planet Vegeta - that wipes out so much of what was established in dbz.
It's also funny how people complain that GT isn't canon because it didn't come from Toriyama, but don't know Super isn't canon, either. Super's stories were made by several different people, were very loosely based on notes of Toriyama's
11:00 There planet being destroyed by meteorite was just a lie told to them wasn't it? So technically not a retcon.
Yes, they were lied to, but geekdom said that was the meteor was the original idea, before frieza was even a thing. So frieza got retconned to being the one who blew it up.
Weird thing about that is that you would think the Saiyans would have the technology or strong enough fighters to blow up the meteor before it reaches Planet Vegeta.
I still can't figure out why they added 21 later the bardock movie, where he is in the past and is the first SSJ and the reason why Frieza is scared of SSJ, cause without this TimeTravel thing that would never happen but anyway, we love DB
Is Goku being an alien really a retcon? It was never intended until later in the series but he has always been different than all the other humans. I think it was more of a cool idea too explain Gokus origins that were already mysterious enough.
And the meteor was later brought back as a cover up story. So even if it was retconned it is still part of the series
it's def a retcon. Goku was a Son Wukong (Monkey King) homage/parody. His early concept art had him as a little monkey boy.
early db is clearly more a fantasy based adventure. While Goku's origins are never explained, he's just a fantasy creature. And the readers would know of the Monkey King and the epic tale Journey to the west (all of the original characters are based on characters from that tale)
Goku and Piccolo being aliens was because Toriyama needed to continue the series further but no had room left to go on Earth. Goku had already become stronger than Kami and beaten the Demon King twice. Where do you go from there? Well space of course. And Viola, aliens.
Plus Piccolo has more plot holes in his retcon into an alien than Goku does
I was hyped for this video. Let's go!
The video we’ve been waiting for!!!
Do you think it's possible that only the Saiyans from Universe 6 are the only ones who have the tingley back thing?
Goku's fate on Namek after he "killed" Freeza. It looked for certain that Dragonball would end with both dead and Namek destroyed, but it got retconned in the Trunks arc.
My own head canon explanation for the tingly back feeling was basically, different universe, different rules. Of course I've seen the video referenced when talking about it, but my own thoughts where before I saw it.
Bruh toriyama is slick with these retcons
thanks for the video
Is the timeskip a retcon too? Because by this point in the series it’s too late for Goku to have not reached out to Bulma in years
Unrelated as it's a plothole not a retcon but can we talk about the scene in the original DB where Goku jumps and grabs the four star dragon ball before it could scatter? Like wtf why don't they always do that with all of them? Is that anime-only?
Also the part where you can't climb Karin's tower by flying which is an actual retcon but it's funny how much it was contradicted
11:00 in the broly movie they say that it was destroyed by a meteor too. And I’m pretty sure he said he didn’t care or something. So I guess he believed what the frieza force told em and just told goku that, which if it’s true fits in pretty well
That last one is good because the fact that Toriyama never attended for Goku to be an alien until the last moment proves my point to the comic book fans that Goku was never based off of Superman to begin with I say Gohan is the closest to Superman
Yeah Goku was mostly based off the monkey king, from journey to the west.
Is that really a retcon because after blowing up the planet, frieza told the surviving saiyans that a meteor struck it. So that falls in line with what they would've believed. I think the only thing that was retconned was the year it happened, because raditx says it was 3 years ago while other sources say it happened when goku was still a baby.
Son Goku being a Saiyan was the 1st thing that came to my Mind.
After playing a lot of XV2, I noticed that supreme Kai of time corrected elder Kai on this potara thingy.
I don’t even mind the lore to Cabba and the other saiyans. It’s a different take on the saiyans
I wonder if Toriyama implies that Babidi is almost the second coming of Bibidi, and that they both essentially summon Buu into existence. Like Buu is more along the lines of an force and then is conjured through magic into the form Majin Buu form they take. After all, the Majin symbol is Babidi’s magic right?
Buu was basically branded with it, I would assume.
Holy shit. The filler explanation for the dragonballs by Roshi ended up being *almost* the canon origin.
Isnt it also a retcon that there is only one supreme kai per universe in super when there where multiple in z before they were killed/absorbed by buu
The problem with the tingling back feeling is not the explanation u gave,the problem is that Goku and Vegeta had to work their asses off to get that form,unlike U6 saiyans who simply went SSJ and then went toe to toe with SSJG and SSB..
Eh I wouldn’t really care if there are retcons regarding ssj, especially because it was a form that was only achieved every 1000 years by 1 special saiyan but the cell/android saga just throws that out the window and says “let’s give everyone ssj”
Also retconned Gokus age when he was send to earth. First he was a naked baby, then a toddler with armor on.
I just subscribed to your channel
What about the retcon on gogeta and vegito power? Thought they told us that now they’re equal in power and that the only real difference is time limit because we don’t know gogeta timelimit
I thought the tingly back thing was dumb, but I do think it explains the how saiyans go SSJ at will. For that I'm ok with it.
I think toriyama had no idea that dragon ball was gonna get this big so he had to keep creating as he go to keep up. It’s like that lie that keeps getting bigger & bigger the more detail it gets. I honest don’t believe the man even keeps up with anything he’s created for the series. The fans take his series more serious than him
so in conclusion, to be successful as toriyama with dragonball, don't plan stuff, just add whatever bullshit that comes after in your head and try to make sense out of it
Don’t know HOW I missed this vid
I don't think #7 is a recon so much as an expansion on previously established lore. After all, in that scene, they do call back to Potara lasting forever and that being why Vegeta was adamantly against it, with Gowasu explaining the time limit.