12 WAYS Dragon Ball Super RETCONS Dragon Ball Z
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- Опубліковано 30 лис 2022
- #DragonBallSuper #DragonBallZ #DragonBallGT
Akira Toriyama recently stated that Dragon Ball Super is approaching the time period which is near the end of the original Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z Anime as of Dragon Ball Super Super Hero. This brings up a major question. In what ways does Dragon Ball Super directly contradict and retcon dragon ball z? In today's video, Qaaman discusses 12 direct ways that Dragon Ball Super directly retcons the original dragon ball manga and Dragon Ball Z Anime. These are all major reasons that will be explained by Qaaman in the anime and manga related video. - Розваги
Unpopular opinion goku in blue gi is better than orange one
I don't think that's an unpopular opinion
It's a nice throwback to his og look in the first dragon ball story before he started training with master roshi.
Agreed
@@justinarzola4584 yeah
@@QaamansLand fr? Causs half of them say orange is better
Another minor detail: at the end of Z, Piccolo remarks that the other fighters are too far ahead of him for him to participate in the tournament. As of right now, Toriyama specifically has mentioned that his new form brings him up in range to Goku and Vegeta's levels.
To be honest, I forgot that detail...
@@QaamansLand Piccolo's always been my favorite, and I've wanted him to come back into prominence since Super started. However, I always tempered my expectations telling myself "well, if it happens, it won't be until after the end of Z" because of that remark... Yet here we are! Haha!
Piccolo being on par with Goku at the End of Z is a retcon I’m PRAYING they keep.
@@selfloathinggivesmelife7810 why they literally ruin piccolo as a character. imagine training every day and then being so shit at it every day you need a dragon to make you more powerful and throw in something extra because thats how trash you are you need the extra. thats piccolo now
@@QaamansLand we all did man 😂😂 it’s too many
My biggest issue is why does goku care about uub when he’s the reincarnation of a character 5 villains ago lol.
Count
Definitely but to be fair we all knew that DBS was meant to retcon the end of DBZ
True but what are the specifics ?
@@QaamansLand Like Goku and Vegeta’s rivalry, Goku and Vegeta having UI and SSB Evolved and all these other transformations, Gohan still being a fighter and having a new form, Bulma not aging as much (well at least not physically), etc
In Dragon Ball Z, Bulma is shocked to find out that aliens exist and that Goku is one.
But according to Dragon Ball Super, Bulma has known about aliens long before the very first Episode of Dragon Ball since she met Jaco when she was very young.
Damn you are good.
@@QaamansLand It's actually very confusing that Bulma has apparently known about Jaco for so long when you concider she's known him all along. She could have asked him to fly her, Gohan and Krillin to Namek, for instance, or asked him for intel about Frieza.
Fucking hell didn't notice that lmao crazy. Honestly it's like they don't care especially Toriyama.. that's how I feel
I don't consider the jaco and dragon ball minus one shots as canon, even though they were written by toriyama they contradict his original story, though they work In this modern timeline created by super.
@@justinarzola4584 I feel the same though I do see all of super as an alternate verse and have done since the beginning. It definitely seems like it can't fit in with the Z Anime. At the end of Z trunks has purple hair and piccolo has pink veins but in super hero Trunks has Blue hair and piccolo has yellow veins? Then Bulma made that wish in the movie to have a big ass or something. Not sure if it was just for humor but makes my head hurt lol
The fact super takes place during the 10 year gap and not after end of z was probably the dumbest thing this franchise has ever done
Explanation?
Go in-depth as your comment will fuel and inspire future video topics. And yes I do respond
@@QaamansLand the reason being we already know what happens since at the eoz everyone is Alive and well. Like literally nothing they do will affect eoz , nothing at all. If super took place right when Goku met uub it would have had so much potential to be better since they wouldn't be tied to eoz.
@@QaamansLandit's not probably.... More like it is....so is ssj 4 stronger than the ssj g powers...why would Goku still be looking at Buu as a threat when he could wash Buu easily
@@QaamansLandthink about it...they brought Frieza back in super then brought him back in gt this time he's fighting Goku with cell😂😂 the creators should've made super something else instead of trying to squeeze it in to the story
One of the original plans for Dragon Ball GT was to have the series take place within the 10 years between Majin Boo's defeat and the 28th Budōkai where Goku met Oob, but they decided against that as they felt it would be disrespectful to base their story within the events of Toriyama's manga and it should be within their own point and time afterwards, not affecting Toriyama's story. But then Toriyama comes along 17 years later and bases Battle of Gods 4 years within that 10 year time span, and Dragon Ball Super continues throughout the latter 5 year span Blooma specifically said she hasn't seen Goku, therefore contradicting the original manga. So, Toei's staff has more respect for Toriyama's manga than Toriyama does.
Brilliant comment
@@QaamansLand
Thank you.
It was a good thing for GT to be right after z so they had more freedom to do what they wanted, super being a midquel means there's less chance to be creative with what happens.
@@justinarzola4584
Exactly. The end of Dragon Ball is an open ending. Goku's adventures continue, his journey isn't over, so why not continue the series from there? It's a complete blank canvas. Then again, Toriyama is forgetful and doesn't think things through.
Funny how the DBS anime straight up says in the first episode that it takes place several months after they erased everyone's minds of Buu with the Dragon balls but then that several months somehow becomes 4 years when they realized later on that they fucked up on the time frame 😅🤦♂️.....
Vegeta admits that Goku is the best in DBZ. That was very important for his growth and development. However time doesn't stop. Vegeta is not training just to beat Goku now. He has his own motivation to be the best he can be, unlike what we saw in z where Vegeta just wanted to surpass Goku. Now he wants to train for himself, motivated by wanted to be better for himself. Not Goku, not anyone else. Just for him.
So Vegeta is Ash Ketchum?
in super that is thrown out of the window, the one you are talking about it gt vegeta super vegeta still has a massive grudge with goku
@@gamingd8215 at least use commas bro
I did
Plus he surpasses Goku several times in Super. He was the first to go SSB and to go beyond that. Neither lasted that long, but he still did it, and UE is on par with UI.
Something important to note: the torture in the 'canonical' (considering Toriyama's involvement with Fukkatsu no F I suspect that's fair to say, but my confidence is less than 100%) version of hell is that it's not meant to be lasting punishment.
The entire purpose of the place is to grind down the will of the evil dead so their souls can be purified and return to the cycle of reincarnation
Well by that logic it didn't take long for Buu to be purified into Uub when he is a pure manifestation of evil
@@QaamansLand pure evil, but where's the Will in Pure Evil Buu?
He was almost more of a force of nature, what reason does he have to resist purification and endure suffering like Frieza did?
@@QaamansLand buu wasn’t a conscious being, he was basically an animal
@@QaamansLand buu was more a force of evil creation than a pure being with a mind or soul.
@@sidecharacter3193 Buu was a conscious being he just didn’t give a fuck.
This is great Qaaman. Thanks for discussing the ways Dragonball Super contradict Dragonball Z. I hope we get see a retelling of the end of Z in the future and see more Goku and Pan moments with Goku training Pan at the End of Z!
What points in the video did you feel break down the contradictions most?
@@QaamansLand The points in the video that I feel that break down the contradictions the most are when you are talking about Goku not seeing Bulma in 5 years and Bulma not aging at all in Dragonball Super.
Potara and EOZ are the first things that comes to mind.
What specifically about both?
@@QaamansLand Potara was supposed to be permanent fusion
@Nirajan Dahal it was never established, in fact in Z the un fused before super gave the explanation
@@carmelosmith8782 well, it may be confusing but i remember kibito and supreme kai had to unfuse with the help of dragon balls. is it energy thing? or life force ? im not sure. but i was convinced, with many other viewers i believe, that the fusion was permanent. thoughts?
@Nirajan Dahal we see in the buu arc in z goku and vegeta separating. It was never told what the reason was. Goku said it must be cause of buu the thing is goku doesn't know anything about the potara fusion
Goku seeming to have trained Pan in Z is also another contradiction as of now since she is being trained by Piccolo in Super and Goku is about to go train with Vegeta and Broly
Honestly didn't think of that. Great point
Or she gets some training by her grandpa as well
It's funny to me how Goku and Vegeta act like they haven't seen each other in a long while at end of Z but just were battling their hearts out just a year before in Dragon ball super super super super hero.
Also I wonder when Vegeta switched to normal earthly clothes in the last tournament since he was donning the Saiyan battle Armor till the end of super hero.
Vegeta wore casual outfits throughout Dragon ball super what are you talking about? Right before the tournament of power he was shown wearing casual clothes before Bra was born.
Yes, but whenever he had to fight like in the tournament, he switched to his Saiyan Armor in super. So I found it a bit weird that he chose to wear the casuals there too.
lol for real bro. it made me sad vegeta gave up the last of his saiyan pride... hanging up his iconic saiyan armor n tights. lol.
he truly became an earthling and found peace tho. which is good. he was happy.
I'll never understand why Super couldn't have been just about Goku training Uub after the Battle of Gods movie and original DBZ ending.
Just my opinion, but Uub would have been a better protagonist for Dragon Ball's future than just continuing to rely on Goku and Vegeta. Him being a kid with tremendous potential and his demonic origins would have made for a perfect protagonist for Shonen Jump.
Why Uub? Be honest, who cares about him?
Yeah, uub is a perfect character to introduce the era of dragon ball without Goku,sadly gt watered him and toriyama wants Goku to remain the poster boy of the franchise forever.
@@QaamansLand Alot of people care ..
@@QaamansLand I personally care about him because I'm curious as to where his potential would take him and what the story would be like if Super just continued from both his and Goku's perspectives as master and student.
I also wonder how his personality would develop while training with Goku. From my cheese hole riddled memory, Uub seemed kind of like Gohan when he was a kid: quiet, meek and respectful, but with a surprisingly explosive temper back in the original DBZ ending. Unlike Gohan's path ultimately ending with him achieving his dream to become a scholar, where would Uub's path take him? Especially if he were to find out that he's the reincarnation of the universe's worst nightmare next to Frieza and that it was Goku's wish to fight him again one day that gave Uub a second chance at life.
Again, Uub has so much potential to make for an interesting character to follow, alongside Goku as the main protagonists in their own story.
I also picked Uub because of the ending of DBZ and again, because I'm curious as to where his story and potential would take him in his and Goku's own story.
Nobody cares about Uub like that,
You trying to sink the Dragon Ball franchise?
Goku is and always will be HIM
Could probably have a Shadow Dragon for each of Bulma’s vain wishes in Super lol
Ohh boy lmao
😂😅.
@@QaamansLand 😭😭😂😂
Can't forget that Piccolo was surprised to learn Future Trunks master was Gohan, when he heard the entire conversation when Trunks talked to Goku after slicing up Frieza.
Great video. This channel has always been the main place that I've gotten a lot details on the series and it always helps with refreshing my memories of the series.
Reason?
@@QaamansLand I encountered your channel almost a decade ago which was a few months after I got interested in the Dragonball series, however one problem I had was understanding the whole story of DBZ because I never watched it in order back then and got really confused with everything at first. When I found your channel it helped me understand the series overtime and your what if series were my favorite to watch, it showed me a perspective I never thought about in any series of just a small change in the plot could drastically change the outcome of the series. As a bonus your channel made me check out Yu Yu Hakusho and it's one of my most beloved series now.
Some of these can still be fixed if they really tried. Vegeta seeing Goku as the super fighter can still be done either by Goku beating a new villain that he couldn’t again (maybe Black Frieza) or by them having a real rematch and Goku winning. With Bulma’s youthful looks, maybe now that Piccolo knows what she is doing he forces her to undo the wishes and she goes back to looking her age. Frieza was never mentioned so they could let him live or they could just kill him again for good, so either works. Kibitokai was never seen in the end of Z, so him being defused in Super doesn’t matter too much.
The hardest one is the 5 year thing. They could try to make it fit somewhat as Goku and Bulma weren’t together at all during Super Hero, Granola arc and Moro arc (maybe just the first chapter?). Add maybe a year between Super Hero and End of Z and you might get close enough to five years.
The problem Jesse with your solution for the 5 year gap is Pan and Bra. Pan is born 4 years from the End of Z and Bra is 3. Goku has seen Bulma numerous times since both were born so there can't be a gap that wide.
@@QaamansLand You’re right, I forgot about their ages. It’s definitely the hardest one to fix and will need a retcon then.
I like this video. thank you !
I chose to believe that super doesn’t retcon Z but rather Z precludes super.
If I have to believe Z or Super, I pick Z
How would that work though?
@@QaamansLand I cite the inconsistencies, not as retcons, but as proof against a continuity from one to the other. We did this with the OVAs. For instance, we cite the fact that Goku was not on Earth during the events of Cooler’s Revenge to prove it non canonical. Why don’t we do the same for Super?
Sure, Akira Toriyama was involved in Super, but should that alone make us consider it a smooth continuation from Z? He was involved (to a lesser degree) in a lot of work that isn’t considered canonical. I choose to think of Super as just another such project, though it is a more elaborate and long running one.
Considering how at the End of Z Toriyama was basically "I'm Out, lets wrap this with a bow" and Toei was all "The show must go on", I think every retcon against End of Z and GT is a good thing. They can be all part of a separate timeline and show up in heroes mission and all that, but Toriyama's entire attitude is about developing the story further instead of finishing it, retcons have to be made to fulfill this end goal. And I'm here for it.
Examples?
@@QaamansLand end of Z was basically "everyone retired except Goku and Pan and Uub" as a way to just end it. They were all different flavors of stagnation or completion. Half of them might as well have died off page and the ending wouldn't have changed except that Toriyama wouldn't have needed to draw them. Meanwhile all the retcons are ways to build upon the characters and have them grow, they have conflicts and decisions, they try new things out and develop. Goku getting a bit dumber is the only thing I didn't like about Super. Every other change has been gold imo
You are 100% right. Even in the manga, Toriyama wrote something like: this is a quick ending for dragon ball, but don't worry Goku and his friends will face new challenges but in the end, they will survive.
My man Toriyama was really burned after the buu saga, as you can see in the story and in the drawings. He just finish the story the better way he thought at that moment.
Not only that, the OG ending of dragon ball has already retconned. Some years after the original ending, Toriyama added some new panels like Goku looking at Uub on the Kinton cloud, Vegeta saying that he will be stronger than Goku, and some panels in the kid buu death. Sorry for the people who don't want the retcon, but the retcon has already come., even before the creation of DB Super.
I recommend reading the Neko Majin z manga of Toriyama and the lore of the game Dragon Ball Onlie, they have several ideas about what Toriyama believed that would be in the future of Db after the Buu saga before Db Super. Maybe some of these things we will see in Db Super.
Ironic with that stupid name you have. Since super retconned the potara ear rings to only being able to last an hour
Bro, the whole series is a contradiction 😂 all those forms and astronomical increases in power levels I’m supposed to believe happened between the end of Z? And this man goku wants to train with Uub after all that LOL
Why not?
@@QaamansLand what you mean bro 😂 ultra instinct, along with god of destruction level power was all tapped in when goku play fought with Uub? lol c’mon man, mysterious as he was towards the end, there’s no amount of mystique that can hide all that insane level scaling that went on compared to the subdued tone at the end of Z 😂
good video!
Way too in depth! I love it !
What specifically?
I meant “dynamic” the way you go back and forth between sagas
Nice video
Had to leave a like because these are all questions or contradictions that MUST be addressed sometime soon by Dragonball Super when it returns
What do you disagree with then?
@@QaamansLand maybe, and I mean a strong maybe, some of the things that bleed into Dragonball GT but even then those plot points like you said was continued from Dragonball Z.
This is beautiful
What specifically?
It's a 10 year timeskip, the first five years is when super takes place, the second 5 years is pretty much when goku was gone .
That's impossible based on the births of Pan and Bra.
Pan is 4 in the End of Z and Bra is 3 so their ages directly show that events have been taking place in smaller time-frames
@@QaamansLand you gotta point there 😅, though everywhere I try to look this up, it always says 10 year timeskip, even geekdom101 made a video on it. I'm just a little confused now 😂😂😂
The contradictions abound.
Some aren’t big fans of head canon explanations, but DB does kinda force the issue often, so I kinda gotta use it 🤷♂️
~_~
Which head canon explanations specifically?
Retcons have always been a thing in the series and we'll see what happens
Yes, but they have never contradicted the series to this great of an extent. Most of them actually fit well, like Goku and Piccolo's alien origins.
What do you think of the retcons presented in this video?
@@QaamansLand The ending of Z will still happen but it'll obviously be different now
@@Mandalore_ultimate I meant on my specific points
@@Mandalore_ultimate
That's the problem. The original manga is the base of which all of Dragon Ball sprouts from. New stories should adhere to the original manga, not the other way around.
Well in the manga, Bulma said four years so technically that still lines up still. The latest arc was still in Age 780. EoZ is in 784 and as far as we know, Bulma hasn't seen Goku since Broly or Moro.
As for her looks, I'm assuming since Super Hero is in Age 783, she may look older for a bit during EoZ before Dr. Hedo makes her look young again or something. We'll have to wait n see.
Based on Pan and Bra's age it's impossible for Bulma to have not seen Goku in at least 4 years
Pan is 4 at the end of Z and Bra is 3. Goku saw her during the time either of them were born.
As a extra comment, a nice way to say it is that Bulma hadn't seen Goku since Pan was born which is false. Based on resurrection. F
@@QaamansLand Wouldn't that just mean End of Z takes place before May 784? That would still make Pan 4 years old during End of Z. The last time Goku saw Bulma, Pan would've been close to being being a one year old if not already one.
THANK YOU for addressing the Pilaf Gang.... That always irritated me.
What about it SPECIFICALLY?
@@QaamansLand that they were kids in Super... If Super is before the end of Z, why would they have been kids? That was confusing
All very true points. very true. I had basically forgotten its been so long
and the contradictions will just continue to pile up over time
Like what?
As Super is supposed 2 be a continuation of the Dragonball manga the Z filler and GT stuff wouldn't be contradictions, as that is more its own seperate universe.
The potara was a dumb retcon as it now removed the tension part of the fusion being perma in fight against Super Boo. Tey could've have it that universe 10 Potara's work diff or they updated them over time, in either the earlier mentioned tension could still exist, while still having that in Super the Potara can be temp at same time.
Yes but that's why the video is titled Dragon Ball Z specifically. There is no dragon ball z manga
@@QaamansLand True, but the anime and manga more 2 seperate universes as i said. Super continues from the manga and GT of the anime. And is they r diff universes, i can't count some of them as retcons/contradiction, because diff universe. But that is just me, i understand 2 fill out a list. But either Super manga and Super anime r not same as well, which 1 specificly is part of the OG DB manga is unkown. Either the DB game with Android 21 is sorta canon as well, same with Super DB Heroes.
Want Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr to be in anime and watch them grow and team up with family members;Keep up awesome and amazing job Qaaman 👍
How is that possible though?
@@QaamansLand they were in after baby in GT and would be great see fathers reaction and have sparring partner
They were cool characters.
I think there's a very simple explanation. They are two different timelines or two different canons if you want. One of them is the end of DBZ and all of DBGT and the other is DBS. Sooner or later the story in DBS will have to go beyond the time DBZ ended. That mini saga will be retold and include new characters. I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama and Toyotaro decided to still do a time skip and push the events of the Martial Arts World Tournament a little bit forward too so that Goten, Trunks and Pan do have some time to interact with Goku and Vegeta. Also Toei, Shueisha, Ban Dai... always want to make more money and the DBZ movies and DBGT provide quite a lot of material to be reinterpreted, reimagined and rewritten. The end of DBZ and DBGT will stay as one continuity and DBS as another, similar but very different.
What did you think of this video specifically?
@@QaamansLand all your points are valid and I specifically agree on the age topic, everyone should look older but they don't. Also, the idea of a peaceful time was the original idea but the new continuity has changed that. All the plot holes, all the contradictions and the retcons are true and well explained, but with two different continuities there's no longer any contradiction. It's like the two movies about Bardock vs what we saw in the Broly movie or more recently in the manga. Or the Garlic Jr mini saga in the original anime that would seem to validate the movie and retcon the anime itself. The story of Trunks isn't told exactly the same way in the anime , the manga and the movie. And if I think about it longer I'm sure I could find more examples. The best part of this is that you can choose whatever you like as "your" Dragon Ball canon. In my personal opinion DBS's retcons make the story better and I wish they did more to include other characters like Garlic Jr, Bojack, Hirudegarn and Cooler and give more backstory to Majin Buu. A well written retroactive continuity can fix many problems.
@@anxofernandez3344 i think janemba can easily happen since by far his story can happen
Qaaman here today! 🤩
I really think they shall remake gt that will make dragon ball series come full circle and they can continue with dragon ball af because it's toyotaro's story so he will be willing to continue with af or they can continue with Goku jr's story or they can conclude the dragon ball series as a whole 🙂
How is it Toyotaro's story?
Didn't toyotaro made a version of dragon ball af where he created xicor
I like to think that something happened to universe 7 getting erased/reset to where it goes to the end of z where nothing happened
That's a brilliant theory. For me to expand more in a video elaborate more
I see so many Canons and timelines in DB.
What do you mean by so many?
@@QaamansLand BEsides all the wack timelines you can talk about with Cell and such.
Basically the series can be.
Manga-Manga End.
Anime-EOZ.
Anime-GT
Anime-Super
Anime-BOG(Z)
Anime-BOG(Z)-ROF(Z)
And who knows where it will go from here.
And I think there's more or it's shockingly smaller than I thought.
Oh wait Manga-Super Manga.
A lot of these are retcons when it comes to the ending of Z, but you bringing up GT and saying anime exclusive content (filler) and GT being different than super therefore its a retcon isnt exactly correct. Just because GT being created by mostly only Toei wanted to lean in on DBZ the animes canon and even having stuff like cooler in it, doesnt contradict anything in the original manga which is what Super is a direct continuation of
The point was that even if GT isn't canon it was based on the original Z and the universe the Original Z created
@@QaamansLand yeah thats fine and all, but a retcon would be changing the already established continuity, but super and GT dont share the same continuity and stray away from each other
I guess i just think its the improper way to use the term retcon, as GT is based on Z but it has really nothing to do with super. Yes GT was someones perspective for how the series would continue, but super is a different perspective on how it would continue by different people, so i guess them having different ideas shouldnt count as a retcon exactly as they are not the same continuity
I always thought that the vegeta still chasing goku/rivaling him in super is still pretty realistic some people will say things and think things but go back on them after things happen. I don't really remember the beginning of super but my head canon is that once goku went god vegeta maybe saw interest in fighting/keeping up with goku again. I know to some that ruins his development but me personally it doesn't and he basically admits it again when he gives goku the rest of his energy in the top (if I remember correctly prob not though)
I think it's kind of stupid to stick with a Canon ending of Z just make it a separate timeline where at the end of Z it's a timeline where Beerus never wakes up and the current super story line is a timeline where beerus did wake up.
They were in the time chamber for 5 years(five days)is how they could fix it and make it seem Bulma was just messing around lmao
Pan and Bra's age contradict that
I honestly hope Super recons GT as well but also keeps certain concepts and characters such as Omega Shenron, Baby, and ssj4 but have a different spin on everything.
Like ssj4 could happen if Black Frieza gets the super dragonballs and wishes for God ki to be useless, so then the saiyans need a different route to become stronger aka ssj primal (new name for ssj4)
Plus if they bring Omega back they could make him come out of the Super dragonballs and could be a huge threat for the multiverse.
I hope we can see the destroy universes rebel against the GP and Zeno and there is a multiversal war, like a fallen angel arc possibly
How could super retcon GT?
@@QaamansLand there are still people who believe gt and super take place in the same timeline
@@QaamansLand as the guy above said, they can take concepts and ideas from GT but change many of the events to fit in the modern canon dragon ball timeline.
@@QaamansLand i shouldnt have said retcon since its in a different timeline but continue the story after Z and beyond. I think a good idea would be to have Black Frieza somehow make God ki useless, making the saiyans go in a different route to gaining more power. Maybe Frieza kills Beerus in this arc due to this as well, and Frieza is more of a threat than we think. Maybe the destroyed universes (who I believe got resurrected with 17's wish from the tournament) then watch this all go down and plot to overthrow both the GP and Zeno, causing a multiversal civil war called the fallen angel arc.
super isnt getting rid of ultra instinct for super saiyan 4
I find Pan from Super Hero to look and act older than her end of z counterpart
Maybe EoZ> are the timeline where Trunks never travelled into the past and the Goku Black and all subsequent arcs never took place, causing a ripple effect for the last 5 years to just be boring training where Whis lets them be, and Beerus goes back to sleep. Never meeting with Zeno again after the U6/U7 tournament, ToP never happens, Moro never gets control of the freeza soldier because Freeza never comes back to life instead the soldier never goes that way, OG73 never gets released and the Heeters and Granola never have to worry about Freeza and leave well enough alone. The only question is what change would have happened to prevent Hedo from being recruited by Carmine. This would wrap things nicely for EoZ, but of course, GT is still screwed for canon conflict.
That's impossible...but do you really want me to type a super long response?
@@QaamansLand no need, the God forms and the wish to be children for the Pilaf gang are enough to destroy GT, but I think the Trunks change could allow EoZ to fit.
This can be explained by universe 12s time travel creating the timelines that eventually result in dragon ball gt and dragon ball super but generally the same events play out in the dragon ball and dragon ball z portion of the timelines pretty much unchanged except for minor details like the ssjgod prophecy and broly and bardocks story and jaco just as examples
It's stated In super that bluma is using the dragon to make herself young. It's a recon. THEY can say it's a different universe like GT.
Of course. I don't why you are attacking the video?
Don't think you can use GT as a means to get your point across since it wasn't written by Toriyama himself, so anything in GT doesn't really count like Vegeta driving Bra around and stuff. Same goes for anime only episodes, they are anime only for a reason, it's filler meaning Toriyama didn't write it. Not Toriyamas fault that Toei made their own concept for people like Frieza and Cell in hell but Toriyama decided to wanna do something different.
Goku never meet Bulma after the ToP which was in 780. The World Martial Arts tournament was in 784, plus Bulma has been known to exaggerate.
That's impossible based on Pan's age and Bra's age. The gap of their age to the End is Z is too small for your argument to make sense
You do know goku sees bulma chapter 71 page 35 of the super Manga. That's where oil and macki go to chi-chi and bulma for goku and vegeta
Are you talking to me? Because I was specifically referring to him mentioning a time skip after Granolah but before super hero
@Qaaman lol no not you quinn, talking to the person who made the comment. Glad to see you uploading more
@@QaamansLand Pan was 4, born in 779 & the end of Z was May 7, 784, so long as she was born after May 7th it fits.
Well quinn in the superhero movie it's implied that goten and trunks hadn't been training due to the fact they forgot how to do the fusion dance
They also have left fighting behind, yet in the recent manga they are shown to be superheroes.
God I love Brett Khan (watch Rick and Morty to get the reference). I didn’t realize he’d done that much to DBZ through DBS. No wonder they locked him up!
Please explain briefly
@@QaamansLand You did all the explaining as to how Super and Super Hero have effectively ret conned DBZ. That’s not even including the ret cons to the potara fusion, the unexplained absence of Broly from anyone’s mind at the end of Z, or even why Beerus and Whis suddenly lost interest in Goku and Vegeta. What Brett Khan did in the show was start off by saying, “This [whatever] has always been [whatever different],” and that’s essentially what happened in Super. Except instead of saying something like “This facility has always been an orange,” (the scene is insanely weird), or “You have always been born without bones,” it’s instead saying, “Potara fusion has always had a time limit for mortals, and lacked one for Gods, but they could always use Dragonballs to defuse,” or, “These characters have always been able to use these incredible powers, and for some unknown reason choose not to.” So yeah…Brett Khan made his name known in DBS to throw off everything that DBZ put in place. In the real world, we know why, but that still doesn’t really excuse it.
Well, to be perfectly fair, it's not that Super contradicts Z - it only contradicts Z >fillers
Only a few of these are strictly anime contradictions. Also toe owns rights to DB including Super. What you call “filler” are official material that goes with anime. Toe don’t just pull stuff out their asses. If they do, Toriyama does as well.
Most of the changes Super brings suck and are unnecessary. It has messed up the continuity greatly with a far, far subpar continuation. However, the hell thing is actually bringing things back to what was once stated in DBZ, when Piccolo told Vegeta what would happen to him if he died, before Vegeta's sacrifice fighting Buu. Hell was supposed to cleanse him, so he could be reborn a completely different person with no memory of his former, evil life. That is pretty much what hell is attempting to do to Freeza, cleanse his soul of his evil ways and take away the memory of who he was.
The potara fusion separation is another that's not really bad, considering Vegito separates when inside of Buu in DBZ and it's never made clear why. Goku just guesses. So, there's definitely room to add to its lore there.
the old kaioshin, didn't defuses ???
@@virungall1002 they retcon it to the permanent fusion only lasts if a kai is involved
Im sure they planned to retcon the ending of z cause if they left it the same it wouldn't make sense.
What do you mean specifically?
I mean, Vegeta had acknowledged Goku as a better person and fighter than himself but never gave up that rivalry, Vegeta would like to beat Goku with his own abilities and tactics in some battles.
** On the Topic of the various retcons; Toriyama probably wanted to do something with the various cast members but at the time of writing the end of Z and Toei going ahead with making GT without Toriyama whom at the time was burnt out, Z and super could co-exist but in the Super manga there needs to be a chapter that fixes the discrepancies as well as a tori-bot insertion on that notion... That really it was never set in stone about everything in that last chapter of the original Dragon ball Manga that correlates to the end of Z. What Toriyama at that point did was create a place holder that he could come back and expand upon later. Heck Toyotarou will most likely be in charge of writing the stories that focus on the next generation of z fighters fighting upcoming threats that are new and young but scale to the next generation.
But the problem is Bra and Pan's ages. They are too close to the End of Z for that to make sense
@@QaamansLand And what? They're supposed to have a couple year age gap at the end of Z if I recall? Of which if that's the case Toriyama must try fixing it.
The manga says that when you go to hell you lose your body and all your memories and become nothing
Where?
@@QaamansLand DBZ chapter 273
People shit on DBGT but DBGT has less retcons than Super 😂
the hell thing isn't a retcon. Hell was not shown in the manga.
A lot of people forget that.
They just should’ve started it where GT started and just scrapped GT’s existence. It isn’t cannon, and it’s repulsive garbage. It would’ve fixed all the retcon canonical issues.
What about the Pilaf Gang?
@@QaamansLand what about them?
Speaking of the rivalry between Goku and Vegeta. In pretty much almost all of Z, Vegeta would use Goku as to suprass him, to actually wanting to kill him and having a big ego about it. Near the end of Buu Saga, I know you already know this. Vegeta sees Goku as number 1 and that leads to End of Z, like you're saying. But what you said about Super, is partly wrong. Yes, they still have a rivalry, but Vegeta isn't at the point where he wants to kill Goku or feed his ego about it. He simply sees Goku as somebody to push himself for his own self, to protect his family and Earth.
Good comment, but where did I imply he wants to kill Goku?
@@QaamansLand oh sorry, I misheard about that part. You're right I never heard you say that. I heard a couple of other people saying that tho, so I was using it to explain.
I think it’s fair to say trunks trying to change the timeline has created multiple timelines and trying to make all the timelines in the show line up is redundant and a waste of time haha
I love your breakdown of everything it's great & so true!
Specifically?
@@QaamansLand All of it
DBS contradicts DBZ by having God KI which can't be sensed by mortals and yet Goku can sense King Kai's KI whitch means Goku doesn't need to sense KI in order to use Instant Transmission yet he acts like he does. Also is Vegeta could not only learn how to use God KI but also SSG and SSJB in like a couple of months than how the hell did Goku after training under a God for 7+ years not be able to do any of that and not only that but he also didn't even know what God KI was until B.o.G
Helps to view the show as another universe
Thank god these changes happened (not sarcastic).
For me, Super equals GT. Dragon Ball Now Has Multiple Timelines, And That's It
Super is clearly a separate continuity. It's just not been officially stated yet
Well the 5 year statement made that clear
I see both super and GT as two convergent timelines after the original manga as that was all drawn and written by toriyama without other writers like toytaro or toei.
Yet akira said numerous times that super is apart of The Z timelime
@@carmelosmith8782 cause he has trouble accepting how much he messed up his own franchise with his inconsistencies. smh.
but im very hyped to see how mr. toriyama makes it all work in EOZ with all dbs stuff also taken into consideration...
its apparent tho manga and super are diff continuities. certain events differ in each.
You forgot the kai hierarchy retcon.
Specifically what?
@@QaamansLand There were 4 supreme kais and a grand supreme kais. The grand supreme kai was the highest of them all. Now there are god's of destruction who have life links to the supreme kais. And there are now only 1 supreme kai per universe. Not to mention the angels and zeno being added into the equation.
thats exactly why i dont acknowledge super. its trash asf and a slap in the face to the og’s. super is nothing but a cash grab. its left a major stain on the original series. the only dragon ball super content i enjoyed was the recent movie with cell max. good video though
What about Qaaman's videos?
@@QaamansLand i rock with your videos. 👍🏾
I mean in the (Dbs) manga vegeta never knew about uub but goku did, even in the Moro saga
Find the specific chapter please. I will reference you in a future video
@@QaamansLand he’s right vegeta knowing Is only a anime thing. the anime sure did rush things. I don’t even think goku knew till right before the TOP
@@marthouismcmiller4787 Direct source?
@@QaamansLand manga 31 & 67 goku learning of uub is 31 and showing vegeta not knowing is 67
i hope moro and granola arc are fillers, please not canon please
I'm a bit lost on why you mention the events of Super as if they happened before GT
The creators made it clear before that they are "separate multiple stories", so after the Majin Boo saga, it has different timelines
What if super took place after gt?
How could that even be possible? Pan is older in GT?
Trunks and goten can do this super hero arc and still end up not rlly caring about fighting later
That's completely illogical, they're shown to enjoy fighting.
I wonder why goku is close to gohan but not really that close to goten
Super is the direct continuation of Z set 3 months after Kid Buus destruction and is cannon. Whereas GT is set 10 years after Kid Buus destruction and is a Side Story not written by Akira Toriyama and is said to be non-cannon.
So yes both make sense
GT is 15 years after Kid Buu. 20 years if you count the English dub
I don't know how unpopular is but i dislike Z ending, it feels kinda like nothing
When Trunks came back in time during Super he changed the timeline lol
Beerus whole existence is a contradiction to the series. Frieza destroying on behalf of Beerus is totally against DBZ concept
I am more than certain Toyotarou and Toriyama will make a new GT storyline because at this time Dragon Ball Super I feel is running in it's own timeline away from what the original ending of Z was doing.
Many time lines .just didn't put a altered ending with Z.but they always could
For me, Super is it’s own continuity. And doesn’t effect the original manga. Nor GT since GT too is the continuity of the Z anime strictly. DB doesn’t have a single continuity. The movies are all just different continuities.
Isn't GT on it's own separate timeline?
Yes but it's based on the original DRAGON BALL Z anime whereas super went in its own direction
Most of these are more like contradictions to the last episode of Z ( for me it dosent matter that much)
The hell of the anime also contradicts what Piccolo said so its better to consider it non-canon
The potara was more up to interpretation so i dont think that counts
Wait, what specifically about Piccolo? And what problems did you have with the video?
@@QaamansLand when vegeta asked if he would see Goku in the afterlife, Piccolo said it wasnt impossible since people like him would basically be erased and their soul restored
you forgot the biggest retcon of them all dragon ball super broly adaptation of bardock and the saiyan history which include goku,vegeta, and broly all being born on the same day, that is a contradiction right there because what we know from the anime and manga that vegeta is way older than son goku. it was only broly and goku born on the same day in dragonball z broly the legendary super saiyan movie, and bardock new character direction inspired by dragon ball minus that he is a kind hearted saiyan that rescue his son to send his space pod in the direction to earth. thats a big contradiction because in a manga chapter akira toriyama inserted the character design from dragon ball z the father of goku special, making that version of bardock a part of the main continuity. so basically we have two version of bardock existing in the same universe so to speak.
i would like to also say on the plus side this also contradicts son goku's character as well from being the only pure hearted saiyan (not by choice) because history validates that saiyan heritage are known from savage and brute behavior, that thrive for battle and to cause mayhem and that they enjoyed doing it. and this also contradicts the namek saga when frieza confronts goku about morality by saying the saiyans has much blood on their hands as he does and then goku responded "yeah and they have paid for their mistakes" that was a confirmation on why goku has no intrest in getting to know his father or wishing his brother back to life or wishing the saiyan race to be revive.
Goku broly and vegeta weren't all born on the same day😂what the hell you talking about? You see vegeta with raditz and nappa on another planet while goku is still a infant getting sent to earth,meanwhile you have broly destroying Alien like animals just to survive. You need to re-watch that movie
I'm confused by your comment since Vegeta was still older because he was raiding with Raditz
im going to say this one last thing but the beginning portion of dragon ball super broly really bothers me with all the retcons and the bardock stuff, excuse me for nitpicking but i dont like baby goku design in dragon ball super broly and also baby vegeta design too. they made them to skinny and lanky like some kind of slender man. i prefer the orginal designs and the designs from bardock the father of goku tv special. i also don't appreciate the vegeta and raditz scene when they was told planet vegeta was destroyed in dragon ball super broly, they made it for comedy value instead of emotional value. they could have made an emotional scene from vegeta point of view but they choose a different route and for what reason? i do not know.
So primarily anime only content screws with the timeline
The manga does too somewhat
@@QaamansLand The manga does but the anime is the prime offender due to the sheer amount of weeks per month it had to give weird statements and using shenron, albeit the anime back in z had goku playing with goten soooooo XD
I’ll take what I can get
How would you feel if the kids trained with Vegeta?
How and when?
@@QaamansLand Between future trunks and tournament of power arc. It's the only time period where Vegeta is on earth consistently. Goku was training with Whis for most of this time.
Man and I thought Nomura and Kojima were bad with checking their own goddamn work >:/
The thing about hell is that the anime never portrayed it well
A time arc ala lightning returns incoming. Well this or we bust out the infinite tsukiyomi.
I swear like 99% of what your saying is right but if i may when vegito defused in buu body the character had there thoughts and that was it we never got an explanation not even from the kias, yes when the kais used it they fused forever, but what about humans non gods if you will. I understand how it is seen as a retcon i really do but i just dont agree
super is a disaster, its a shame because i like the canon broly
but at this point, i prefer GT as the main time line and super as an alternative time line, because super has so many retcons and so many people involded that it doesnt make it any less spin off than GT
Please do What if the Dragonballs could not resurrect the dead? they can do everything else, just not that.
So like the future Timeline?
@@QaamansLand i mean the timeline branches off when Bora stays dead, and then Roshi and Krillin as well. id be interested to know your thoughts because i dont think its necessarily a negative outcome.
@@QaamansLand that would honestly be better ......i can just imagine Goku dying to b frieza and then Vegeta and Gohan getting power up due to it and then fusing and then everyone fighting frieza at once..
......that's just me tho.
lol
Toriyama and Toei at this point with Dragon Ball is just like “fuck it, merchandising and fan service first, story telling is whatever. Even tho it would’ve pissed some fans off, they really should’ve just had Super initially take place after End of Z since Toriyama had already stated that GT was just a side story and hell they could just say that GT happened in an alternate timeline thanks to Trunks’ time traveling
Man you have really been watching my videos. What did you think of this video specifically?
it retcons the end of z not the entirety of z i didn´t saw the video yet im gonna watch now but the title you put in the thumbnail makes it look like that you mean the entirety of z
RETCONS? I've never seen 'ruined' spelled that way before 🤔
Are we just going to ignore the fact that there are multiple timelines in Dragon Ball Z?..
I mean, I don't like Super but still, this could be an alternate reality.
Seems like Dragonball z had 3 alternate endings.
Movies/gt
Super
One unseen