Massa is a tragic figure really, one can only wonder what could’ve been had his 2009 accident not occurred. I do believe that unfortunately 2008 was his last real chance to win a title, but he absolutely could’ve continued to win races.
Jenson was my first thought, but then I doubted myself thinking it would be the most average driver to become WDC which made me think it was Keke Rosberg.
@@MrVsGarage only my opinion, but I would guess amount of GP's, number of drivers having raced in at least a session (including FP1), amount of race finishers... for example
@@MrVsGarage Number of races number of cars number of drivers proportion of cars to drivers number of winners points gap in both WCC and WDC numbers of pole sitters numbers of DSQ, DNS, DNF
In the wins category, Keke Rosberg deserves mention, as he became champion when he had 1 career win, which I think is the record low. He scored 4 more later on though.
Yeah I totally agree. But Mike Hawthorne was also crowned champion with one career win (at the time). He beat out stirling moss who had 3 wins that season. (Old f1 points system is odd lmaooo)
@JellesMarbleRuns he should do a vidpe about the greatest robbery of a championship ever in M1 history, where maybe a certain green team was potentially sabotaged in the penultimate race. 😂
Mr V videos take me back to SB Nation “Chart Parties”. Do I need to know mathematically the most average F1 champion. No, but does it fill the void in my heart. Yes, yes it does.
I know much more obscure football stats than actual football thanks to Jon Bois, and now Mr V has done the same for F1 What will Mr V invent for F1 that is the same as Scorigami
Fun fact: Keke Rosberg nearly became F1 champion without winning, he only win once in the year when he won the championship (his first win) and after he get 4 more wins (5 in total)
I saw this comment and did the math for you... to the best of my ability. Of the 72,685 laps that I have data for: 50,914 laps (70.047%) were led by eventual WDC winners 21,771 laps (29.953%) were led by drivers who have never won a WDC Edit: Added percentages
Will u ever publish the whole results of ur calculation? Would be pretty funny to look where the driver u didnt mention in the video falls, I dont mean all the stats, just the final graphs, maybe u could do it in a community post after the video release. Btw keep it up, ur categories are fire
I have a video idea: Which countries borders would make the best formula 1 track. Of course you couldn’t do every country so you could shorten it down into just the countries that have F1 tracks that are regularly in use.
Tbf, even if 2025 is the exact same as 2023, Max still won't have as many wins as Schumacher or Hamilton or lots of the other stats like podiums, poles, etc.. He needs MULTIPLE more years of top form to get the numbers equal. But if course numbers aren't everything
@@MrVsGarage like you said, numbers aren't everything, but max does have some numbers over hamilton as well. After this year though, it's nice that max is finally in the conversation. In my opinion it goes: Michael 1. Hamilton and max 2. And honestly in my opinion, 3 is interchangeable, could be vettel,fangio,senna or prost. But if max and redbull take the title for a 5th time this coming year, max moves over hamilton in my opinion.
What would happen for the results of this videos if you normalized all results and looked for the driver with the least squares deviation from the norm?
It sounds like you just described exactly what I did. If you're suggesting to find the driver with the least deviation from their own average performance then that's the most consistent driver not necessarily the most average. You can be consistently good or consistently bad and well outside of the average for the entire population
@@MrVsGarage Well no, you look for the summed least squares deviation. Instead of that, what he's proposing is flipping the order, by calculating a minimized sum of squared errors instead. Thus avoiding the Jensen Button problem by heavily punishing high variances.
Hey, so with all the f1 ranking reactions coming out this time of year. I think a video in ranking them all out and figuring what youtuber is the best at predicting the results would be fun. Part 2 could be going back through the past years. Thanks for all the slightly unhinged videos. it's always fun to listen to.
It's Supermax because he benefitted from the longer seasons and 25 point system during his entire career while Lewis started in the 10 point system and suffered the McLaren reliability era between his first two titles
Button was my first thought, but then I realised he did drive some trash cars at some points in his career. Villeneuve makes perfect sense. There's likely some that would have made even better average champions if they actually won (mostly famous sidekicks of great champions)
Haven't watched yet... I actually think Jenson Button could be bang in the middle of world champions.. let's see Edit: variance be damned, where's my prize!!
Before this video the first driver I thought of as an average F1 champion was Button. I personally love Jenson Button, and he’s a great driver, but if we’re talking world champions, he kind of falls smack bang in the middle. I also often seem to forget him when listing champions. Love you JB ❤
6:00 ish, i don't think it means it's more unlikely for you to win it next year, than it would have been last year. It just means this year was your best shot at it. You are basically Lando.
Next question: where do these champions go in the regular rankings? And who are the best ranked non-champions? So much potential with this database for nerds like us.
Hear me out, would it be better with percentages, such as % of poles or % of wins with the percentage being out of the total number of pole/win opportunities that season? As there were much fewer races up until recently, having a percentage instead of the raw number would eliminate that. Maybe I'm onto something maybe I'm not. Probably would be a lot more work.
Well, we are missing a very crucial element in these calculations: the engine freeze. The cars became incredibly reliable because of it, and I think that has a tremendous effect on everything.
@@MrVsGarage ah, yeah Phil was more average relative to a normal driver than a champion. My personal dislike of Damon and his somewhat undeserved talent to success ratio made me think of him as bang average. Him having more wins than Hakkinen is a cruel trick played by a malicious god
@@MrVsGarage Can you check the stats from the last video and see which champions are below average, and who is the most average driver, who's a champion?
@@michaelmaclean6965 but he got cheated out of the championship in 94, and how he won a title after his father died at a young age and worked his way through f1 without any backing is just incredible, imagine mick schumacher winning the championship
He wasted ONE of the best cars of his era (the FW17). He won the title in the FW18 and the FW16 was a tricky beast that even Senna couldn't get his head round (and Hill still dragged it into title contention). The FW15C was also a good car, but he was in his first full season and very much the number 2 driver in that season, plus he did win 3 races so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt there. The cars he drover for Brabham, Arrows and Jordan were in no way the best cars of their era (though Frentzen did very well to win 2 races in the 199).
The thing about using these stats to calculate the best or worst is that for some of them it's not clear what's better or worse. What has more merit? Winning a championship at Farina's age or at Vettel's age? With Fangio's race count or with Alonso's?
Always love your videos!! It would be great if we could see what the average championship winning season is! And the full list of this video too 😁 (go Max GOATstappen)
Next video: statistics but numbers are relative. Every season normalised to if the season had 100 races, so that the numbers are actually saying anything
@MrV - You can make also a stat of those VICE CHAMPIONS, like , who had best / closest oponent in fight for championchip amd who blew the oposition. Who had the easiest season. But you need to take consider the % of races in a season vs. amount of point advantage. - follow up to that, of "who is best , not becoming world champion"
Just comparing MV and LH on the stats to see who has the greatest variance and therefore is the higher ranked WDC; Max has: 4 WDC 24 1st WDC age 10 seasons 207 starts 40 poles 62 wins 33 fastest laps 111 podiums Whereas LH has 7 WDC 23 1st WDC age 18 seasons 354 starts 104 poles 105 wins 67 fastest laps 202 podiums. I"m a MV stan, but i'll admit LH has max beat on every statistic
Yeah I was being facetious with the outro. Max actually ranks almost exactly the same as Vettel for joint 4th using these categories. LH wins and it's not even close. Obviously I don't think this is a good way to judge the GOAT, if you were actually going to do that I would use all different categories
Your stats are wrong. You attribute 2 more race wins to Max than he won (strike off Spa and Abu Dhabi 2021) 2 fewer race wins to Lewis than he won (grant him Spa 2008 and Abu Dhabi 2021) 1 WDC more for Max than he won and 1 fewer to Lewis than he won (2021) Being a MV stan is just an admittance of idiocy.
@Mr V .... 3:24 here it should be taken not the pure amount of wins, but % of wins in how season was long. Cause 3 wins in a 9 race season is different then 3 wins in 16 race season. So it should be counted how big % of races, our champ WON in a season, that he took the crown.
To be fair, max is at the peak of his career, if you would have done the same calculation in 2013, it would've been vettel, in 2020, it would've been Hamilton, it's not really a fair comparison
Instead of going for absolute most laps led you could do % of laps led per career. It would make more sense and compensate the metric for abnormally long or short seasons
Now we need the most average F1 team
Sauber.. :P
@@joribremer5260 nope, they would be at the bottom, so not average
That should be Jordan :) Including Midland, Force India, Racing Point and Aston Martin years
Spoiler alert: it's Alpine
Has to be Toro Rosso.
Felipe Massa has:
11 wins
15 seasons
41 podiums
16 poles
15 fastest laps.
He was one point to becoming the most average WDC ever
Good one
It's not a bad stat line for his first 6 years in F1. It's 2009 and after that wrecked his legacy. All that added was 13 podiums and 1 pole.
Massa was fast,if not that accident he would have done great.
He came back a different person after that accident.
Massa is a tragic figure really, one can only wonder what could’ve been had his 2009 accident not occurred. I do believe that unfortunately 2008 was his last real chance to win a title, but he absolutely could’ve continued to win races.
The math throwing out Button as the middest world champion before you weaseled out of it actually shows the system was perfect
Not really he took a long time to get his first championship and first win but also had a way longer career and more podiums
something something british bias
That ending lmao
i burst out laughing
huh? guess i dont get it.
@@jemartin144that's Verstappen's "theme song". I think it's called 33 Max Verstappen
@@jemartin144 DUDUDUDU
MAX VERSTAPPEN
🗣🗣🗣
we should have got the full rankings!
9:16 brb off to have a fit on twitter
Actually managed to guess it correctly when the video started
Also DU DU DU DU
Yeah I was guessing one of 3. Hakkinen, Button, or Villeneuve
I guess either Jenson or Kimi
@@ruohonleikkaaja Kimi's career was too long for an Average Champion and after his Lotus stint, his career fell off a cliff.. tanking all his stats
@ true
Jenson was my first thought, but then I doubted myself thinking it would be the most average driver to become WDC which made me think it was Keke Rosberg.
Can you maybe also do the most average F1 season?
Oh wow, what stats would I even use for that?
@@MrVsGarage only my opinion, but I would guess amount of GP's, number of drivers having raced in at least a session (including FP1), amount of race finishers... for example
@@MrVsGarage I would include amount of different winners, % of wet races, % of retirements per race, % winning margin for championships atleast
@@MrVsGarage Number of races
number of cars
number of drivers
proportion of cars to drivers
number of winners
points gap in both WCC and WDC
numbers of pole sitters
numbers of DSQ, DNS, DNF
@@MrVsGarageAverage WDC position of race leader
In the wins category, Keke Rosberg deserves mention, as he became champion when he had 1 career win, which I think is the record low. He scored 4 more later on though.
Yeah I totally agree. But Mike Hawthorne was also crowned champion with one career win (at the time). He beat out stirling moss who had 3 wins that season. (Old f1 points system is odd lmaooo)
@@qwaxlol He already had 1 win each from 1953 and 1954, the win in his championship season was his 3rd (and final).
The moment I clicked the vid I thought it’s gotta be keke on gut feeling no stats involved lol
5:55 "Yes, I know there's others, but they didn't fit on the screen..."
Much like on the grid, Stroll is needlessly taking up space here.
Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed that
his inclusion is hilarious though
was coming to the comments to say the same lol
That ending is great
8:42 Yes, you DO need to read it out! You've opened Pandora's Box, you can't sweep it under the rug now 😂
Hit you as a bit of a surprise... good one
SPOILERS!
Most Mid F1 Driver: Winner of the Indy 500.
Most Mid F1 Champ: Winner of the Indy 500.
Bonkers
Incredible, simply incredible
Can we get a video about the best formula one season the most average and the worst by an induvidual?
Omg the goat is here guys!
"Try not to reply with Jelle's Marble Run-type topics" challenge
@JellesMarbleRuns he should do a vidpe about the greatest robbery of a championship ever in M1 history, where maybe a certain green team was potentially sabotaged in the penultimate race. 😂
@ you failed the challenge. Miserably.
@@scratchybongvt oops
Mr V videos take me back to SB Nation “Chart Parties”. Do I need to know mathematically the most average F1 champion. No, but does it fill the void in my heart. Yes, yes it does.
Exactly! It scratches a similar itch.
I know much more obscure football stats than actual football thanks to Jon Bois, and now Mr V has done the same for F1
What will Mr V invent for F1 that is the same as Scorigami
the twist at the end was not something i expected goddamn
The ending was incredible
would have been crazy if you put a Jochen Rindt pic to the „some waited til the very end“ part
Bro...
@ sorry, its true
wait... does that mean Rindt holds the unique distinction of winning an f1 title after his career ended
@ more like after his life ended but yeah, you could say that too
That ending is defiantly Pandora's box
It's spelt pomodoro
Yes it's a joke
Its spelt panda
@@paolovalzelli No, it's spelled "spelled", and also "definitely".
Fun fact: Keke Rosberg nearly became F1 champion without winning, he only win once in the year when he won the championship (his first win) and after he get 4 more wins (5 in total)
the end of he video is simply sublime... congrats
That ending is amazing! And i do agree with it as well
Max is great, but not the GOAT
@@larsbeuk1303The stats say otherwise 😏
He didn't even say anyone how did y'all decide on max 😭
@@archanvaya5520 the stats would make lewis the goat. Not max
@@gamechip06 have you not heared the music at the end?
4:36 this chart made me wonder how large portion of all laps have been lead by all of the champions combined.
I'm also curious about that
After a quick computation (yes i'm a f1 nerd too), it's 70.1% after the Qatar GP (although the sprint are not counted)
I saw this comment and did the math for you... to the best of my ability. Of the 72,685 laps that I have data for:
50,914 laps (70.047%) were led by eventual WDC winners
21,771 laps (29.953%) were led by drivers who have never won a WDC
Edit: Added percentages
Brb gonna send this completely innocent video to all my friends that are Lewis Stan’s.
I’m a Lewis stan and sent it to the max fans in my life
8:45 Maybe the GOATs are the friends we made along the way
Or… the letter 👀
Or..tu tu tu tu😂
9:12 the most iconic ending of video I´ve ever seen😃
I was just as hyped as you were, when realizing that 4 people have driven 25% of all laps on p1, of all drivers ever... mindboggling!
That ending🤣 top quality haha
Will u ever publish the whole results of ur calculation? Would be pretty funny to look where the driver u didnt mention in the video falls, I dont mean all the stats, just the final graphs, maybe u could do it in a community post after the video release. Btw keep it up, ur categories are fire
Haven't watched the video yet but I am going to guess it is someone like Jenson Button or Nico Rosberg.
EDIT: I was kinda right with Button
A Mr V 'tangent' I am all here for it
I have a video idea: Which countries borders would make the best formula 1 track. Of course you couldn’t do every country so you could shorten it down into just the countries that have F1 tracks that are regularly in use.
This would be great. And probably not *that* hard
7:33 I audibly went "Eughhhh"
I said it before, in a couples years time there will be no longer a debate about the GOAT… du du du du
Tbf, even if 2025 is the exact same as 2023, Max still won't have as many wins as Schumacher or Hamilton or lots of the other stats like podiums, poles, etc..
He needs MULTIPLE more years of top form to get the numbers equal. But if course numbers aren't everything
@@MrVsGarage like you said, numbers aren't everything, but max does have some numbers over hamilton as well. After this year though, it's nice that max is finally in the conversation.
In my opinion it goes:
Michael 1.
Hamilton and max 2.
And honestly in my opinion, 3 is interchangeable, could be vettel,fangio,senna or prost.
But if max and redbull take the title for a 5th time this coming year, max moves over hamilton in my opinion.
There is a debate about who the GOAT is, but Max isn't anywhere in that conversation.
BONUS TIME!
I find this funny, cause before watching the video I was already thinking Jenson Button or maybe Keke Rosberg
9:12 DUDUDUDUDU
What would happen for the results of this videos if you normalized all results and looked for the driver with the least squares deviation from the norm?
It sounds like you just described exactly what I did. If you're suggesting to find the driver with the least deviation from their own average performance then that's the most consistent driver not necessarily the most average. You can be consistently good or consistently bad and well outside of the average for the entire population
@@MrVsGarageThe driver with the lowest sum of the squared the differences: you don't cancel out over and under anymore and punish larger variance.
@@MrVsGarage Well no, you look for the summed least squares deviation. Instead of that, what he's proposing is flipping the order, by calculating a minimized sum of squared errors instead. Thus avoiding the Jensen Button problem by heavily punishing high variances.
Damn, i was thinking Fangio was the goat, a surprise for sure
goat of the 50s
Fangio IS the GOAT. The End.
Hey, so with all the f1 ranking reactions coming out this time of year. I think a video in ranking them all out and figuring what youtuber is the best at predicting the results would be fun. Part 2 could be going back through the past years. Thanks for all the slightly unhinged videos. it's always fun to listen to.
The name at the top is either Hamilton or Stappen. Both of whom benefit from seasons getting longer and longer.
I'm guessing Hamilton since he said started early. Verstappen was young, but in his 7th season.
It could also be Alonso or Fangio because of their stats.
It's probably verstappen since his song was played in the last seconds
Y'all need to start keep watching till the end
It's Supermax because he benefitted from the longer seasons and 25 point system during his entire career while Lewis started in the 10 point system and suffered the McLaren reliability era between his first two titles
Button was my first thought, but then I realised he did drive some trash cars at some points in his career. Villeneuve makes perfect sense. There's likely some that would have made even better average champions if they actually won (mostly famous sidekicks of great champions)
Just realized that you’re the same guy I watched play scrap mechanic like 8 years ago or so
0:13 I had no idea until It hit me
I must say that ending scene is "simply lovely"
called out button before the video started. glad it played out perfectly.
Funny thing is: Button and Villeneuve were literally the first two I thought of as most mid champions...
New video idea: what country outlines make the best F1 track shapes!
My God, the suspense the ending... beutifull😂
Haven't watched yet... I actually think Jenson Button could be bang in the middle of world champions.. let's see
Edit: variance be damned, where's my prize!!
Before this video the first driver I thought of as an average F1 champion was Button. I personally love Jenson Button, and he’s a great driver, but if we’re talking world champions, he kind of falls smack bang in the middle. I also often seem to forget him when listing champions. Love you JB ❤
I'd love to see who the other names were around the average mark, especially those two with low variance.
When I saw the title I immediately thought "Well, that's got to be Jenson Button, right?"
I've just made myself dinner, perfect timing (and perfect ending)
Im gonna class these videos as maths revision soon
We need the most average Mr V video now.
6:00 ish,
i don't think it means it's more unlikely for you to win it next year, than it would have been last year. It just means this year was your best shot at it. You are basically Lando.
Mister V great video and a surprising ending.
The only thing I thought of, before any stats came up, was that the average champion would have exactly two championships. Turns out I wasn't far off.
Next question: where do these champions go in the regular rankings? And who are the best ranked non-champions? So much potential with this database for nerds like us.
I'd imagine Sterling Moss would lead the non-champion brigade by a good margin.
We deserve full stats, not only who is the best but all of the math
Do what NFL logos would work best as tracks. That’s be a neat way to incorporate an American Audience
Forget the top position, I wanna know who's at the very bottom! 😆
So basically Max or Schumi is the GOAT. Got it
These videos are super good.
Love how my mum rang me up right when he was explaining who the goat of F1 is
Hear me out, would it be better with percentages, such as % of poles or % of wins with the percentage being out of the total number of pole/win opportunities that season? As there were much fewer races up until recently, having a percentage instead of the raw number would eliminate that. Maybe I'm onto something maybe I'm not. Probably would be a lot more work.
Neither is perfect. Percentage favours the guys with shorter careers so Fangio, Farina and Ascari just dominate most categories
Well, we are missing a very crucial element in these calculations: the engine freeze. The cars became incredibly reliable because of it, and I think that has a tremendous effect on everything.
Surely it's Phil or Damon Hill, Phil wasn't dominant at all and Damon wasted the best cars of his era
Damon Hill is pretty close to average, Phil Hill is well below average stats wise.. dude only has 3 career wins
@@MrVsGarage ah, yeah Phil was more average relative to a normal driver than a champion. My personal dislike of Damon and his somewhat undeserved talent to success ratio made me think of him as bang average. Him having more wins than Hakkinen is a cruel trick played by a malicious god
@@MrVsGarage Can you check the stats from the last video and see which champions are below average, and who is the most average driver, who's a champion?
@@michaelmaclean6965 but he got cheated out of the championship in 94, and how he won a title after his father died at a young age and worked his way through f1 without any backing is just incredible, imagine mick schumacher winning the championship
He wasted ONE of the best cars of his era (the FW17). He won the title in the FW18 and the FW16 was a tricky beast that even Senna couldn't get his head round (and Hill still dragged it into title contention). The FW15C was also a good car, but he was in his first full season and very much the number 2 driver in that season, plus he did win 3 races so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt there. The cars he drover for Brabham, Arrows and Jordan were in no way the best cars of their era (though Frentzen did very well to win 2 races in the 199).
Would love if you could do these for Motogp as well, great video again.
You cant escape the Indy 500, Viilenueve won it!
FANTASTIC ending
I am curious who is the worst based on your metric?
I know that Keke Rosberg was rated lowest by Racermetrics.
Surely keke
On a serious note, for me, the most avg driver to win a world title is Villeneuve.
Nah man, actually he's one of the worst 😂
The thing about using these stats to calculate the best or worst is that for some of them it's not clear what's better or worse.
What has more merit? Winning a championship at Farina's age or at Vettel's age? With Fangio's race count or with Alonso's?
Always love your videos!! It would be great if we could see what the average championship winning season is! And the full list of this video too 😁 (go Max GOATstappen)
Now we need the most average Team Principal
Next video: statistics but numbers are relative. Every season normalised to if the season had 100 races, so that the numbers are actually saying anything
That's the cliffhanger on which you hang your cliffhangers
"The most average driver might hit you as a surprise" 😂😂😂
damn i was close i pronostic fittipaldi, nice video as always
So subtle with the reveal lolol
Before looking at this, I think it needs a driver with 2 world championships and about 20 wins so I'm going for Fittipaldi, or Graham Hill
it would be interesting to take this data considering only the seasons in which they won the title
I'm not joking that as soon as I saw the title I suddenly said Jack veilnuive
Button was the name I had in mind when I opened this and Villeneuve was a logical pick, too 😅
Can you do most average season for the F1 champion?
That way you can do wins/pole etc... out of the amount of races in that season.
Right from the start, I thought this had to be Button
@MrV
- You can make also a stat of those VICE CHAMPIONS, like , who had best / closest oponent in fight for championchip amd who blew the oposition. Who had the easiest season.
But you need to take consider the % of races in a season vs. amount of point advantage.
- follow up to that, of "who is best , not becoming world champion"
These are great but could you standardise them for number of races in a season?
Best rookie season using similar criteria but looking for the best not the most average (although could also look for the most average).
Just comparing MV and LH on the stats to see who has the greatest variance and therefore is the higher ranked WDC; Max has: 4 WDC
24 1st WDC age
10 seasons
207 starts
40 poles
62 wins
33 fastest laps
111 podiums Whereas LH has 7 WDC
23 1st WDC age
18 seasons
354 starts
104 poles
105 wins
67 fastest laps
202 podiums. I"m a MV stan, but i'll admit LH has max beat on every statistic
Yeah I was being facetious with the outro. Max actually ranks almost exactly the same as Vettel for joint 4th using these categories. LH wins and it's not even close. Obviously I don't think this is a good way to judge the GOAT, if you were actually going to do that I would use all different categories
Your stats are wrong.
You attribute 2 more race wins to Max than he won (strike off Spa and Abu Dhabi 2021)
2 fewer race wins to Lewis than he won (grant him Spa 2008 and Abu Dhabi 2021)
1 WDC more for Max than he won and 1 fewer to Lewis than he won (2021)
Being a MV stan is just an admittance of idiocy.
Imagine if you could access all the historical data of who went to what race and when (fans) and could figure out the most average fan
@Mr V .... 3:24 here it should be taken not the pure amount of wins, but % of wins in how season was long.
Cause 3 wins in a 9 race season is different then 3 wins in 16 race season.
So it should be counted how big % of races, our champ WON in a season, that he took the crown.
To be fair, max is at the peak of his career, if you would have done the same calculation in 2013, it would've been vettel, in 2020, it would've been Hamilton, it's not really a fair comparison
If I had done it in 2013 it definitely would have been Schumacher
@ fair, but you get the point, unless max suddenly desides to be Rosberg his stats will still change quite a bit
Instead of going for absolute most laps led you could do % of laps led per career. It would make more sense and compensate the metric for abnormally long or short seasons
The numbers don't lie, its Goatifi
Prediction before the video" The most average champion is Nelson Piquet"
i thought you were going to say its latifi, the champion of 2021 while not winning a single race
Who is the most consistent driver in f1 (lowest standard deviation)?
Bizarrely from the champions it's also our top rated....