Why We Can't Agree About The Last Jedi (Or Art In General)
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2018
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Why do we see art differently? Today, I take another look back at The Last Jedi and its polarizing reception to analyze how we watch movies and why we’re so tribal about them.
My other Last Jedi video: • The Last Jedi and the ...
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Works Cited:
Fish, Stanley E. “Interpreting the ‘Variorum.’” Critical Inquiry, vol. 2, no. 3, 1976, pp. 465-485. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/1342862.
Reading the Romance: www.amazon.ca/Reading-Romance...
Lindsay Ellis' Series on Film Theory: • Transformers and Film ...
Now You See It's video on lateral movement:
• Which Way Did He Go? L... - Фільми й анімація
My next video will be on something else, I swear. Just really felt the need to make this video! Hope you enjoy!
Just Write what are your thoughts on wisecrack's criticism in their "what went wrong" video? They disliked it for a very different reason than the ones you covered here.
In my opinion the problem with the Last Jedi isn´t that all of us have a different interpretation of the movie, is that they used elements in the Force Awakens with the intention to impress the audience but when they had to expand in those elements they didn´t know what to do. And you can say it because the creator of the Force Awakens uses the Mystery Box a lot to just create some expectation.
And if you want to make a more serious story you don't use one that is like a soft fantasy tale because even Mark Hamill said that Star Wars isn´t really Scy Fi but Fantasy.
Not saying that fantasy can´t be mature, but Star Wars was about adventure and good vs evil at its core.
Just Write whether I disagree with your opinions or not your videos are well made and it’s always great to see a new one. Also I’m glad you at least attempted to address the criticisms of the film while avoiding showing disdain for those who didn’t like it.
Great video. God I'd have loved to watch the movie that you're summarizing with Luke. Such a fitting end. Unfortunately what I saw in the cinema was a bloated, aim- and visionless, over-plotified, mess so afraid of boring the audience that not a single moment had gravitas.
"when Rey learns she's the daughter of no one"
simpler happier times....
Why? After all, she is still nobody. The only product where she wasn't is that weird parody of the saga made by Abrams in 2019: I don't remember the name, maybe it was "Episode 9: Let's please the fanboys with the Fanservice"?
Daughter of no one
Granddaughter of…
Regardless of what you think of this movie or the others, I think the one thing we can all agree on is that this trilogy would have better overall if it was executed by one person with one vision for all three movies.
yes this! If Rian Johnson or JJ Abrams or Spielberg or Waititi or whoever was the one overarching vision across the series it would’ve been great. I mean my biggest complaint with TLJ is that it stands on its own and tells a story different from the rest of the Trilogy when it was supposed to be a middle piece not an end piece.
Oh ! Totally !
That's how many people hate _TLJ_ anyway, and thus _TROS_ who tried to go back to the _TFA_ those people preferred
Yepper!
*Examples of TFA being original trilogy (and especially ep. 4) redux:*
1. mysterious know it all embodiment of evil pulling the strings? Emperor = Snoke ...
2. masked villain who works for the embodiment of evil but who might be redeemable because of his relation to a character we know? Vader = Kylo Ren ...
3. And our main character seems almost certainly related to someone especially powerful ... Luke = Rey
4. older mentor figure who tragically dies by lightsaber as the rest of our heroes watch (but they can't stay long because they have to flee where they are, since they're blowing it up)? Obi-Wan = Han
*Examples of TLJ Flipping Those Themes only for RoS to Reverse:*
1.
TLJ: kill Snoke!
RoS: bring back the Emperor.
2.
TLJ: destroy the mask! make Kylo appear irredeemable!
RoS: bring back the mask! Kylo is subservient and not the real face of evil again! He'll be redeemed, save ReyLuke's life, and then die! Where have we heard that before?
3.
TLJ: She's totally her own person! There's no familial bloodline with which she can define herself or from which she can draw on! Her power is her own.
ROS: She's Palpatine's granddaughter.
Literally not one bit.
The original trilogy had different directors as well.
I think the main problem is the last movie being made by JJ.
It worked with TFA, it didn't work with TROS.
Damn. I somehow never twigged that it was a sunrise rather than a sunset. That makes the call-back even better.
Honestly that was my favorite moment in the whole movie of just Luke
Yep, absolutely genius
That's becuse it there's no indication it's a sunrise. He's assuming it's a sunrise.
@@prudentparatrooper385 it is because its the following day of when Rey leaves the island after knowing the truth about why Luke went into hiding
@@prudentparatrooper385 did you not watch the video all about different interpretations?
I came for the articulate conversation, but I subbed for the seamless Skill Share transition.
shit man, when you said "a new hope" it gave me chills
Me too
Dude. I actually cried, I was so swept up by that line.
Grant Fuller little bitch
@@colemacgrath2005 A little harsh, but yeah, what the fuck.
I don't understand people so easily moved.
@@grantfuller1999 I got emotional in the third act of the video when he started talking about Luke, I had to keep my tea aside for this.
*goes into comment section*
*scrolls back up*
You are a wider man than I.
Same--I always have hope comment sections like this won't be riddled with negativity...I'm wrong 99% percent of the time...*sigh*
Haha, yup.
A couple months ago, I found out that I can't reasonably talk to a friend about why I think Last Jedi is a good movie.
It doesn't take the force for me to recognise wisdom.
The Lifthp Lol wider. Intentional there, Ben Swolo? ;)
Also, during Luke's death, he's overseeing an ocean, a place filled to the brim with life, in contrast to the barren desert of Episode IV
There is also order and chaos contrasted here. the Desert is perfect order (which is death) and the ocean that of primal chaos.
yes, i also like how there's a connection between his death and the binary sunset scene in ep iv. we first see him watching a sunset and he dies that way as well.
.....This is satire, right?
@@jmarra07 huh?
@@owensanfordstuff Y'all are looking way, way too deep into a terrible, stupid movie
"He overcomes the only force in the galaxy he hasn't conquered... Himself."
Quality Star Wars pun.
For a channel that once spent a whole video lamenting the over-reliance of bathos in Marvel movies, it's odd to me that you weren't bothered by its omnipresence in this movie
even more cringeworthy as well...
TLJ did have a little too much bathos IMO in some scenes. But it's out of control in some of the Marvel movies.
Nah the marvel movies have FAR worse bathos.
Luckily most of the bathos got cut from TLJ.
The big difference is that Marvel movies have a consistent tone of "do not take it so seriously". TLJ, on the other hand, wants you to take it seriously, but it's not consistent. Luke is shown as someone bitter, sad and cold, but then he makes jokes worthy of Thor: Ragnarok! How is that supposed to be consistent with the character?
It is funny. If Thanos had made jokes in Infinity War, the public would have hated it. But with Luke and Kylo Ren they do not say anything ...
i don't love The Last Jedi, and I don't hate it,
but since my opinion on the Internet isn't extreme, apparently, it doesn't matter
Corner Seeker So "a 2.5/5 star it was okay" review eh lol. Nothing wrong with that. 😉
it isn't that you aren't extreme enough its that the number of people like you are out numbered
dexdrako based on?
mostly its simply its not how the real world works
there's a mythology that the middle is where most people sit but its more or less a lie. on any single issue debate you'll find the majority of people people fall on one side or the other with very few people truly in the middle. sure an overview of a persons beliefs may seem to average out to some imagined middle point but that's only an average of "extremes". if you gave that same person an middle position on only one subject they'll hate it.
this holds true for just about any subject you can think of.
the middle is mostly for people that don't know or care about the subject being talked about. so its a position people come too because they want to feel outside/above the debate.
Corner Seeker im sure someone will insult you anyway dont worry
Ain't it ironic that people don't agree with your "Why we can't agree.." video.
I would find that weird : Who thinks so many people can agree on the same thing, simply put ?
People don't agree with it because he's wrong about why we can't agree. He's saying that the people who don't like the TLJ don't like it because it doesn't fulfill a fantasy, and that the technical details aren't important. But he's wrong. Most of us don't much care about the fantasy, we care about the technical details. Seriously, go watch any youtube critique of TLJ and it's nothing but going through every detail TLJ gets wrong.
In order to enjoy a movie, you have to be able to suspend disbelief and engage with the film. For a LOT of us, TLJ fails to allow us to suspend disbelief. Whether its dumbass bomber designs, rampant military incompetence (The entire movie, Holdo's plan), out of place jokes (Hux mom joke), nonsensical plotlines (Why not lightspeed ram every ship? Why not ferry people with the Falcon? Why not just tell people the plan? Why trust an actual convict in prison? Why free space horses?), conflicting themes (Holdo sacrifice good, Finn sacrifice bad?), anachronistic technology and events (how does Rey know how to swim? Lasers arc? Fighters can fly through shields? Lightspeed ram? Point defense turrets don't work for... point defense?), or shoe-horned political messages (baby's first capitalism is bad lecture... lol).
@@jeffmorris5802 With respect, you've gone to a great deal of trouble here, but the examples you cite are not technical details (at least, not in the sense the content creator intended); they are plot points.
The narrative of this video concerns itself with cinematic craft (technique, which is non-diegetic); not internal story logic (technicalities, which are diegetic). It is perfectly valid to question the internal workings of military logistics or laser weapons, but to offer them up as evidence of why a film is objectively 'bad' is to ignore the more significant issue of artistic merit. Thus the focus on the fans' misuse of the term 'execution,' which is applicable to how a story is told, not what happens in it.
And not to stereotype 'Star Wars' fans (I have been one for most of my life), but many of the most vocal ones consistently make this judgmental error.
My two cents? 'The Last Jedi' is the most challenging, finely-crafted, and ultimately satisfying Star Wars movie since 'The Empire Strikes Back.'
@@jeffmorris5802 well, I do agree with you mate 😁
@@jeffmorris5802 i'm so glad i don't watch movies like you it sounds exhausting
Hmm...I honestly feel like I gained a new perspective on the last Jedi.
I too gained a new perspective, but that alone does not a good movie make. If you want a deconstructionist take on Star Wars, play through the Knights of the Old Republic games. Despite their age, they're still consistently taking the top spot on Top Ten Star Wars Game lists here on UA-cam. The first game is a pretty standard Star Wars story, but the second is the best deconstruction of Star Wars I've ever seen. For the second game, playing with the Restored Content Mod is the definitive way to play, as the game was rushed and somewhat incomplete. Both games are available on Steam.
007Ben I wish I could play them if they fixed the goddam glitches in Kotor 2 I really want to play it but I have to restart because of how many game breaking bugs they are so I gave up just look for the story unless you have the patience to play over and over and over
Me too. I always tried to understand what are those qualities that people who liked last jedi are seeing on the film.
Congrats.
@@Padtedesco To give you my perspective - most of the complaints against TLJ I share with the haters (except those about subverting expectations), like God awful humour (I think I exhaled air out of my nose just once), porgs, Holdo the Bitch...
But concentrate on the things I like about it.
No, it's not a concious thing, but an unconcious rather, so it's strange. To see that I agree with arguments against it, but still like it for it's other qualities? Well I guess that just proves the point of different interpreting groups.
@@randomgamer625 They made a MOD called "The Sith Lord Restored Content Mod" who is a record high popular vote in whcich they "by the best of their abilities, try to fix the Issues of Kotor 2 who happened because it get rushed.
Ben: You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the force!
Rey: You don’t need to, I’m taking a class for it on Skillshare.
Proust : "There are no books, only readers."
"We need to move beyond good and bad" *shows footage of beyond good and evil 2*
Very clever my good man
I have not seen the movie and honestly from what I have read and seen I am reluctant to. It goes back to how Han died, how he was a failure as a parent, husband, comrade. He abandoned everyone and ran off, backsliding to the life of a criminal because it was easier than facing his responsibilities. What I saw as character growth in the first Star Wars film, placing the lives of others ahead of his own self interest, was undone.
Likewise we saw Leia as a failure since the First Order rose and she was unable either as a politician or political leader to take steps to prevent its rise or to form an adequate defense against them. Finally Luke was a failure as a teacher, a mentor, and rather than try to set things right he stole away to some remote planet to sulk. This is not like what Yoda or Obi Wan did, with the first being too old to fight and the latter actually serving a purpose, protecting Luke.
My heroes were turned into pathetic screw ups and that is something I just did not want to see. Why should I give my money to Disney so they can show me how pathetic my protagonists, my childhood heroes, had become? Screw Disney, man. I don't need that sort of Star Wars in my life.
Thomas Stockel
It's bizarre. Did Disney not realize how they were trashing the legacy characters by plotting this trilogy the way they did?
I don't know what the hell they were thinking other than the older characters were there simply to satisfy people hungry for nostalgia. Outside of that they could be dumped on as much as Rian and JJ wanted to make their characters look good. I really don't care what any director/producer has in mind for future Star Wars films, all I know is I think they've dug a deep hole they can't climb out of.
They were all failures but in the end Han and Luke redeemed themselves. Han at the end of the force awakens joins the resistance and tries to save his son. Luke redeems himself by returning to the fight, sparking hope in the galaxy and savign the resistance
Not enough, man. Years and years of dodging their responsibilities while evil was on the march. Its like saying Darth Vader saving Luke in Return of The Jedi made everything better. It was a kick ass scene and it was nice Luke felt all good about things but I'm thinking about all those dead younglings he left on the floor of the Jedi temple, or those poor bastards he slaughtered in Rogue 1, or his torturing Han or a million other atrocities. One act does not equal redemption and neither Han or Luke are redeemed when their gross irresponsibility led to so much misery.
Thomas Stockel - Star Wars clearly depicts that killing the main antagonist rights ALL wrongs though.
Darth Vader for ALL his atrocities killed the Emperor, saving his son and ultimately redeeming himself. (As shown with him being present as a force ghost in the conclusion to 'Return of the Jedi')
So in the Star Wars universe defeating the "big bad" rights ALL wrongs and we know how important lore is to Star Wars fans...
I believe you're making an (albeit honourable) mistake in trying to figure out the mentality of those who disliked this movie: generalising the audience in the dislike camp as 'fans' who have rigid and irrational requirements reads like you can't accept that a rational person could dislike the film. As someone who liked the first two (original) films but none of the others, and who is most definitely not a fan, I can tell you that I dislike this movie for its uninteresting plot, its painfully bad humour, its incoherent tone (tragic one second / jokey the next), its almost laughably bad ship design (ships that move at a snails pace to drop bombs in a universe where there's such a thing as light speed), it's incoherent side plot featuring Finn, its pointless halting of the main plot, which leaves us with nothing to look forward to in the next film, it's ultimate predictability (Luke dies! What a surprise!), its uninspired soundtrack, its abysmal ending, its poor opening, the non-story with Luke, the pointless story with that Pink haired lady who deliberately acts incompetent - raising the suspicions of her colleagues - for no good reason. The dialog was bad. The CGI was over the top. They killed the main bad guy without giving us a reason to be afraid of him. Characters do things for reasons that don't make motivational sense. The list goes on. It was a pain to watch.
Tantacrul your focusing on technical details like ships proves his point. Film is subjective. You didn't like it for your own reasons. But most DID like it. The box office, critical reviews and general opinion reflect that.
You're right. It's not much about the old SW canon or Luke's dead, it's about an awful plot, motivation of characters and many questions from the previous episode, which were not answered
*THANK YOU!*
Sash As Filmmaker General opinion is 46% liked it. XD.
Also, that's not a trivial technical detail, and its the only one he mentioned.
Sash As Filmmaker
That's not really the case.
Firstly, any known metric on general opinion suggests a below average response.
It's true it was well received by critics, but by the average watcher? That's a claim more difficult to field.
As for sales?
Any entry in a franchise with good momentum is difficult to judge in terms of success based on sales in a vacuum, because fans will show up on early before they have any appreciation for whether they'll like the new entry or not based on appreciation of past works.
The best way to gauge the appreciation of a title in a franchise is to look at the sales of the following release(s), because if the previous release was bad you'll have driven away those early adopters and brand loyalists.
Love it or hate it, looking at Han Solo performance, I think that speaks to the damage TLJ did to the brand from a consumer perspective, so no, it's not entirely clear that TLJ was well received.
Tbh this trilogy would’ve been much better if Johnson had done the whole thing. The biggest problem with the last Jedi is how jarring it is. Perhaps if Johnson had control over 7 then it would’ve worked better
It baffles me why DLF originally thought it'd be a brilliant idea to have a different director/writer for each of the 3 films. What did they expect would happen? Obviously each person has their own vision.
@@NaomiTCOOKIES The original trilogy also had different writers and directors for each film. That literally worked before in Star Wars history so thats really not the issue.
@@10Nicv True, but they had George Lucas as part of the team so he could still direct the overall vision for the whole trilogy and keep it consistent.
I mean, I sorta agree with you : One director for the whole TReylogy, OBVIOUSLY, no matter what, would be MUCH better...
I would love to read Rian's version of the whole story. At least part IX.
I thoroughly enjoyed the movie when I watched it in cinemas, but couldn't put my finger on as to why. This video essay encapsulates what I could feel, but just couldn't say.
Beautiful assessment, brother.
This is some serious next level analysis. You are rapidly becoming my favorite video essayist. I truly think that we will be talking about and analyzing the Last Jedi for years and years, perhaps way more than any other Star Wars movie, and I'm glad so many great writers have stepped up to provide a foundation for the conversation.
Oh so I’m not crazy! I’m just part of a different interpretive community that actually liked TLJ.
Also, you’re analysis of Luke’s final heroic act was brilliant.
Keep up the good work!
I grew up with Star Wars, I love TLJ for exact reason that it was a direct narrative attack on the head canon expectations of toxic nerds who have convinced themselves they owned the franchise and actually had some hand in it's direction. Kill Snoke? Fuck yeah. Who needs another Emperor wannabe. Rey's parents were nobodies? Fuck yes. Enough of this everyone is related nonsense.
@@DeaconShadow It's an expensive way to attack someone. This is generally called cutting off your nose to spite your face.
@@DeaconShadow attacking is the *exact* problem, you don't *attack* the people who consume your product
Splash'n'Skillz #37 The “fans” incensed at the new movies are childish imbeciles and their concerns do not matter.
@@DeaconShadow they do matter, they got mad for a reason, you confuse these "fans" with haters, the true fans, there are many disappointed with TLJ and it could have been better and they hope TRS is better
Where's the interpretive community that's "I'm fine with them throwing away the heroic escapism part of Star Wars to focus on more real-world themes of failure, but I'm not OK with how they went about it? And also, Canto Bight kinda sucks?"
Cause that's basically where I am. I'm glad they swung high, but IMO they struck out on the scene-to-scene level. Almost all the "for" or "against" comments I see with this film focus on the big picture stuff, but that's not why I have an overall negative opinion of the film.
I also must say, I don't think I've seen anyone criticize Luke's death at all. That's usually one of the more uncontested good moments from this film, and I agree.
I'm right there with you but I still classify myself as liking the film and I still rewatch it more than most star wars movies yeah I didn't like some parts but thats not going to make me say. This is a terrible movie. Rian Johnson ruined Star Wars. Disrespected fans.... etc. etc. I think its okay to dislike parts of something but still enjoy it as a whole
I know its an old comment but who cares. I just rewatch tlj and if anybody hate hate this movie, they should also hate force awakens since that movie is why ep 8 turns out so. Rian has to find reason why Luke went away, why he cant feel han's dead, why Kylo lose to Rey, etc. If Rian was completely involved in creating ep 7, things might have differ. I like the movie though n hopefully rian got his trilogy.
You do realized he just answer your question in the video right? Nice job
The main question in this video is exactly in line with what u said how did u not realize it lol.
The question was about bad execution which is essentially the same. Yes he didnt have an exact answer cuz urs is more specific but it is essentially the same formula. Ur satisfaction on film comes from previous interpretations which then leads to you having ur own interpretation on what makes certain things good. Noone can have the same opinion especially on this huge franchise and those people that share opinions w/you just have the same interpretative strategies.
Now i obv dont know the exact answer as to why you have this negative opinion on TLJ since as i said everybody forms their own interpretation. but what the video proposed is that only you can really find out the answer. This video was made to show the reasons on why everyone has varying opinions on a movie and how important it is to know why u hate or like certain things.
Clearly u didnt understand the concept of the video and just straight up wanted to find an answer when obv noone can do dat but yourself.
There is an objective element of a franchise movie being part of a preexisting universe. Rian Johnson objectively failed to make a movie that fits in with the rest of the movies. His incompetence even destroyed the finale to the saga because all the plotlines were scrubbed and JJ had nothing to do but make a video game movie.
If I had a dollar for everytime someone told me that The Last Jedi is "objectively" bad, I'd have enough money to remake The Last Jedi.
But who would want to remake an entire movie? That's just silly!
Unless that movie is Space Cop :/
Really? Hollywood nowadays is all about remakes and reboots. It’s more common to remake a movie than to make a completely original IP.
That remake idea? It's a fake, no worries.
Jimmy A Exactly. No matter one’s opinion on this film, almost everyone agrees the sequel trilogy is the least coherent and will most likely end up weaker than the prequel trilogy.
RCBM Mines nope.
I think this video shows why critics and audiences can often be so divided. Most critics share the same way of interpretation because it's their job to review and critique all sorts of movies. Fans, however, see fewer films and have different standards and expectations.
Scott Hayse
Absolutely. And there's nothing inherently wrong with interpretive communities. The problem comes when they try to enforce their interpretation as the definitive text.
Exactly!
Scott Hayse: Na! The critics are just a load of shills. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
In all seriousness, I think another reason audiences didn't appreciate this movie as much as critics did is because when you have to see every single film that comes out and you start getting tired of all the cliches, you begin to appreciate the riskier films more and more. Whereas fans of a specific franchise devote more time to that one set of films they love and thus expect to be pandered to more.
Most critics were paid off
Scott Hayse- its just Last Jedi where I've seen Critics and Auidences most divided by far. Most movies, critics and audiences arent that far different. Like Cricts and Auiendes generally liked movies like Return of the King, Pulp Fiction, etc.
And critics were paid off or not allowed in early Star Wars functions if they gave Last Jedi bad reviews, that's why critic score is so high. Actually read the critic general census and their reviews. They all sound like non-sense that didn't even happen in the movie whatsoever.
I adore Luke’s storyline in The Last Jedi. What person doesn’t have to face some hard truths as they age. And although most people don’t have to face a failure on the level of Luke’s, we all face struggles. Of course the point of an epic fantasy is to show the challenges faced in an epic manner. And the fact that he overcomes his self-doubt, or how ever you want to describe what he is going through, is beautiful. He saves what is left of the Rebellion, faces Kylo in a way that avoids real violence and leaves the galaxy a new hope, dying with peace and purpose, as Rey states. BTW, I realize that many people share the complaint of Rey’s Force abilities. This is something that I wish this movie and The Force Awakens made clearer. The novelizations spell out that the connection forged by Kylo and Rey in her interrogation have allowed them to share memories, fears and skills. The novelization spells out that Rey feels like doors have been opened in her mind that allow her to access some of Kylo’s training. I hope they clear this up in The Rise of Skywalker, but I doubt it. One clever way that they represented this fact visually in The Last Jedi is through the lightsaber training Rey does on Ahch-To. If you watch the sequence of moves that she makes you will find that they are a mirror of the same moves, in the same order, that Kylo makes when facing Luke.
You shouldn't need supportive material to fully understand a piece of media. Rey's character is awful because is a classic Mary Sue.
Love this comment, precisely why I like those moments and found it hard to understand the not my luke opinions. He was the same person but time and experience changed him we saw a few years of around 60 of his lifetime it seems difficult to me to define a character from that. Also to the comment above mine, most of the content for Star Wars is found outside the movies, the knights of ren specifically are only given a backstory there, they don't explicitly say or state most things in the movies but a majority of the time people choose to dismiss it or read about it to understand it. The Mary Sue argument here is especially empty considering you just threw out information that specifically proved that wrong.
@@iurk0_streaming like Anakin and baby Yoda? Who are inexplicably strong with the force and can use it without mUh tRaInInG? (Midichlorians explanation doesn't count).
@@jungoo3486 Anakin had to train to use specific skills in the Force, and train for years at that. Baby Yoda is from a species that is strong with the Force, and while he does impressive things, it is clear that he has "surges" of the Force that are quite chaotic, and erratic.
Rey is a Deus Ex Machina on two legs, she never has a character flaw, everybody likes her automatically, and uses the Force without training in ways that required a lot of training according to what was previously established for other characters. Mary Sue it is.
@@iurk0_streaming Yeah like Anakin train to destroy an entire battle military station as a little kid.
This interpretation hit me deep.. like I finally made sense of what I felt during the movie. Thank you!
Your look into the death of Luke made me tear up man. Great essay.
Yes, this!
you are a shill
same
The problem with the ending is the half measure it was. I would agree whole heartedly if he had shown up in person to confront the representation of his own demons but instead of staying true to his ideals (passivity and non-intervention) he intervenes, but he doesn't seem to truly commit to that either. Instead of staying on Ock2 he goes to help, but instead of going in person he force projects projects which leaves the character in this strange non-committal area and the audience thinking he is weak for not making a strong choice either way.
Bent Philips are you dumb?
"This movie screwed up the core fantasy of Star Wars" is what many Star Wars fans hated about the movie, but "This movie subverted/deconstructed many stale Star Wars tropes" is what I and many others loved about it. Each camp has other things they liked or disliked about the film (even if they mostly disliked/liked it), but this core difference in vision is what caused the rift between self-proclaimed "true fans" and TLJ fans (and, presumably, the film's writers).
Timothy McLean i hate the fact that people think that if you liked TLJ you are Not a real fan, Ive read books, seen the 8 movies and the animated series a lit of times and i'm really un touch with the lore, and just beacuse i liked the most controversial movie, i'm a fake?
I hate the idea that some people who say they like X are "not true fans of X" because they like/dislike the wrong parts. It's like saying you can't be a true Scotsman if you put sugar on your porridge or something.
I love this false equivalence. Please, tell me again why I didn't like the movie. That way I can remember next time.
Also, please remind me why subverting expectations is by and of itself a good thing. I used to think that it was only fun when it was logical and satisfying, but ever since Dec 2017 people keep trying to tell me it's good for the sake of itself.
I'm an average fan of Star Wars and TLJ is my favourite SW movie. I don't live in a SW fantasy though, since the SW fantasy is symbolic to the American Dream, I think that that is the biggest problem for American fans and European fans just dislike the 'SJW stuff'...even though the original movies were pretty much feminist filled as well. - and is anything wrong with that? imo not.
I dunno about you, but a lot of people's complaints add up to something to the effect that the movie isn't what a Star Wars movie is "supposed" to be.
As to why subverting expectations is a good thing...it's not. It's also not what I said, so I don't see *why* I need to explain that, but apparently you want to tell me why I liked the movie. And do so in a way that makes it easy to mock.
"Luke gives the rebellion, and us, what he has always promised to provide....... A New Hope" INSTANT TEARS
Didn't Luke cause all this? He tried to murder his nephew because he had a nightmare...
ua-cam.com/video/f8sTyf5RGy0/v-deo.html
I remember when I saw this in theaters and when he went out to fight the First Order I thought they had jump the shark and the film had because straight up fan service and it started to kill me a little. The revelation that he was projecting himself across the universe in a feat of force power never seen on screen before was really was made this whole film one of my favorite Star Wars movies.
I loved this especially your interpretation of Luke’s death. As a life long Star Wars fan I hated this movie the first time I saw it. But after thinking about it for a long time I went to see it again with a more clear perspective and let go of my own expectations of what I felt or wish this story should be and just watched it for what it is. Since then I have come around to loving it more and more with each new viewing
I think Wisecrack had the best take on this movie. They tried subverting the Star Wars tropes, but still relied on them for catharsis. Luke tells Rey she shouldn't expect him to face the First Order alone with a lightsaber, but that's exactly what he pretended to do. He burned the tree with the Jedi books, but only after Rey took them. Finn can't sacrifice himself, but that admiral does. It's almost like the director was too afraid.
He wanted to destroy the cake but still save it for later, just in case the next director is hungry.
that's one interpretation I guess. To me, it's finding middle ground between extremes, don't rely too much on the past (like Rey does) but don't try to throw it away either (like Kylo does). Make a sacrifice, but only when that sacrifice is worth it (Holdo's case, not Finn's case). It's a big theme of Star Wars, finding balance
Well luke went out to face the first order at the end of the movie after yoda talked some sense into him and realizing that the galaxy still needs hope regardless of his failures and that was the completion of his arc. But yeah, jedi book burning shoulda stayed burnt
The movie is a circle, it ends right where it started. Basically you watched 2 hours of nothingness. You could watch The Force Awakens and Rise of Skywaler without watching The Last Jedi and you wouldn't have missed any important piece of information other than Luke died.
The movie was really about finding one's true path by reversing course. Rey wanted find her past but realized she must embrace her destiny and in doing so had to pick a path. Finn wanted to run away from the war and realized he had to fight against tyranny. Poe wanted to fight against all odds and had to learn humility, to trust authority, and use brains over brawn. Luke was disgruntled and even acted indignant when he asked Rey if he should take on the entire first order with a lightsaber and then he did just that when he realized that there are things to fight for. There was so much character development in the story. Rey, Poe, and Finn were just props in The Force Awakens but became multidimensional characters with story arcs in The Last Jedi.
Peter Smith Exactly. The Jedi have been fucking up for centuries. Their choices were wrong. They failed. Luke realized this. The “fans” could not, even when it was laid out for them in no uncertain terms. Which, frankly, is an element all over the top critics of this movie share: they literally could not be bothered to get characters actions rightly, listen to the dialogue or use the slightest bit of awareness to put actions and dialogue in context. Like the anti-SJW idiots that hated this movie the most, they comprehend nothing, merely waiting and hanging on every word as an avenue of attack, as opposed to part of a narrative
Bwahaha god your last sentence is off. Finn's character took a huge quality hit, his personal conflict was much more interesting in The Force Awakens, where he was fighting to run away and grew to fight for Rey, TLJ just widened his scope to fight for the resistance because of simplistic reasons. TLJ doesn't even use his compelling backstory as a stormtrooper for anything other than contrived exposition.
DoctorXander The imbecilic obsession with “backstory” is why the Prequel’s suck so hard, Vader was little more than Tarkin‘s lap dog in Star Wars, moving on to becoming the primary antagonist in the empire, and then his arc is completed in Return of the Jedi with Anakin‘s redemption. But not being content to leave it at that, we then get the prequel‘s where Vader goes from antagonist to “space Jesus“, and all the attendant bullshit with such a moronic take. To say nothing of midichlorian‘s and the worst “romance“ ever put on the screen.
And if you also think about Kylo Ren's character is just as important and interesting because of his role as the villain. Throughout the movie he says let the past die and for Rey to let go of the past he's ironically still stuck in the past. His hubris is anger and he thinks that killing everyone in his past from his worship of Vader to his father Han Solo when all these events tear him apart mentally. When he becomes force bonded to Rey he begins to slowly show himself to Rey and tries to convince her to let go of her past when really he's trying to get her to use her past as her crutch for anger but she doesn't. He's given multiple times and chances to change but he doesn't because his anger and frustration are holding him back. Because of his anger he let himself get tricked by Luke so easily when the audience saw something was up. Yes he becomes Supreme Leader by the end but at what cost. His mother has given up hope on him to come back, his father and uncle were gone and Rey the woman he had developed romantic feelings for hates him because of his stubbornness to change. It's why I enjoyed him as a villain here than in force awakens.
Even more than that it's "What you want it's quite what you think you want"... to which "True Star Wars Fans" said "NO WE DO WANT THAT"... and then Rise of Skywalker...
This surprises me, because of the focus on the Jedi story. I love the Jedi arc in TLJ.
My problem with the movie is purely the Resistance story. It's fine for heroes to fail. It's necessary for the situation to appear hopeless, so the heroes' victory feels meaningful and inspirational.
TLJ missed this: between Poe, Holdo, and I guess the fortunes of war, they fail so hard that the Resistance is over. They have no ships, no pilots, no soldiers, and no leaders. All the senior figures who could have rallied a new Resistance force are dead, and the complete lack of response to their distress call all but explicitly tells us that even if there were, there is no one left to rally. Everyone else has already given up.
While Luke and Rey's arcs (to me) come to a satisfactory conclusion, the Resistance arc is completely different. They failed. They lost - and nothing here gives us any hope for redemption.
It's fine to tell a story about flawed heroes who struggle to overcome their flaws and become great. It's not OK to tell a story about how they fail, and those flaws simply hopelessly doom them and everyone around them. At least, not in Star Wars. If TLJ had committed to being a tragedy, then sure, it could have been great - but being a tragedy that pulls its punches makes it feel half like Star Wars and half something very confusing where the heroes never win and didn't deserve to.
My problem with Last Jedi is that it is not a story that happens after the original trilogy, but a story that REWRITES the conclusion of the original trilogy. Leia is a strong force user and Luke's approach to problems made a 180 degree turnaround without any explanation.
How can a person that runs from the world, because is afraid of child's potential be the man that had unwavering faith in his father - a serial killer to do the right thing and end the rule of a tyrant?
Because Luke is also being manipulated. And because he is afraid of repeating the Jedi's failure that he brings on his own fledgling order.
His arc is about returning to his faith that good can prevail. He hasn't abandoned good vs evil, he simply sees now that the force isn't one or the other, but a means used by good or evil people
And somehow Rey stopping by and showing the potential for corruption was enough to make him into that hero again. Not even Solo's death which seemed irrelevant to him.
Interesting how reader-response theory is manifest in the very comments of this video. It seems like some commenters watched a totally different video than I did.
My own opinion: your retelling of Luke's arc is more poetic and relatable than how it's presented in TLJ. I didn't feel a connection to Luke in the theater, but I did here.
Matt Robinson yeah that’s what the video said genius.
MMM [memesmakemoney] shut the fuck up. Whiny ass bitch
Emperor Ziko yeaaaah Don’t tell anyone to shut up and insult them without even presenting any evidence on why or how they’re wrong. It just shows how little meaning your comment has.
The Last Jedi has my favorite version of Luke. He was a very boring blonde boy-scout type of loser in the original trilogy.
Gabriel P I wouldn’t say he’s boring. He’s flawed spaced King Arthur and isn’t the typical sci-fi protagonist which makes him interesting I think. To me the boring Luke Skywalker is the EU one that’s OP and void of any personality, basically he’s the typical boring sci-fi protagonist that he never should’ve been lol. So yeah this older and broken Luke feels like the more natural and fitting portrayal of him versus the EU version to me.
great video! i love how you explain your points so well
What a great video! Thanks for sharing your insights with us.
The problems I have with The Last Jedi are actually symptomatic problems I have of The Force Awakens. TFA set up Rey and Finn as duo protagonists, sharing equal importance to the narratives forward progression. Rey is revealed to be force sensitive, and Finn holds onto and uses the blue lightsaber during this movie. The final battle, where they work together to fight Kylo Ren, embodies this idea of their shared importance to the new trilogy.
As a viewer, the assumption would be that moving into the next movie, the two would continue sharing this narrative importance. After seeing The Last Jedi, most would admit that Finn being there didn't really add anything, which is a little weird since he felt so important in the prior movie.
My personal take away from these two movies is that Finn narrative roll in the first was something a bit more tactical on the pre-production end. I believe his character was only written to be there, to soften the blow to more sexist audiences, when it is revealed that Rey was going to be the Heroin/Jedi of this series.
EnjeoLineMedia Finn and Poe could have teamed up in TLJ like buddy cops. Since Finn doesn't know how to fly, Poe could teach him and by the end of the movie, the two of them have each other's back. He'd still be shoved as a supporting character, but at least he's more valuable to the B plot rather than starting a C plot.
Also, C plots are objectively bad writing. It diffuses reader focus too much because there are too many characters who need to be given something to do. It's like Riker fighting Ron Pearlman in Star Trek: Nemesis. The fuck does that have to do with anything?
Poe's role was taken out and replaced with rose tick by that asshat director coz he felt that Poe and Finn don't have chemistry lmao
Damn that segway to the sponsor tho
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I always pause a video when it's over. Looks like I dodged a bullet!
Interesting experiment and I appreciate you taking the time to make this. Your description of the fan criteria isn’t congruent with mine. Empire is most broadly considered the best Star Wars movie and it’s very dark, as a middle chapter of any Campbellian myth should be. I’ve used the term “disrespects the franchise“, but what I mean by that, is that Rian Johnson made a standalone Star Wars film. Regardless of how you feel about it, he goes on the record to say this. He doesn’t respect his place as a middle part of a three episode arc that belongs to an even larger nine episode ARC. The biggest hurdle for Rise of Skywalker is that we have set up movie in Ep. 7, then set up movie in Ep. 8 , and now the creatives are meant to bring it all home in Ep. 9.
And look how that turned out. While TLJ fans like to blame other fans for TROS turning out this way it's really a combination of Disney's lack of planning along with JJ and Rian making their own films that hurt the trilogy as a whole.
It's not THAT dark.
elalesound It’s not Chuck Palahniuk, but it’s dark for fantasy, and certainly dark for sci-fi 70s.
I don’t really get this argument, like at all. Does the ending of The Last Jedi wrap a lot of things up? Yeah, but at the same time a lot of things are still open for a final film. Yes the resistance lives, but how’re they gonna stop the First Order without any army or powerful allies left? Yes there are other force users out there, but how will they be trained now that most of the old ways are forever lost? The First Order basically wiped out most of their opposing force and changed their leaders, how does that impact their place in the galaxy?
All these things could make for an interesting final film that leaves the Star Wars universe in a fundamentally different state from where it started. To say that there was nothing there to make a 3rd film in the trilogy and that’s why RoS was so bad is absurd to me.
@@jonathanjoestarwithpluck4930 Rey never had room to grow, Kylo started to become interesting then defaulted to a child in a tantrum by the end, Finn is so inconsistent that Rian can't even remember that Finn doesn't know how to fly yet flies a ship with Rose, Snoke is never explained or even added to, the overworld building is lacking, and Hux lost any ounce of intimidation. There is so little to build on from TLJ.
The less you look at TLJ the better it remains, but if you look deeper and breakdown what is actually happening in the film... it doesn't make sense and requires the audience to actively make things up to fill in the blanks because the movie doesn't provide any of it.
You can like the film, by all means, but I like plenty of movies that are garbage. And based on how Star Wars sequel trilogy is aging, I think people are just saying they like it and then never watching it again or buying merchandise.
“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.” Luke’s final stand perfectly embodies this view of the Jedi, and was much more satisfying and creative for me than chopping up a mountain of Stormtroopers could ever have been.
That intro into Reader Response Theory is really enlightening. It helps me put a lot of the critiques and reviews I've read into perspective, including my own. I feel like it holds quite a bit of merit in real life, and it would probably help a lot of writers to keep it in mind when they are creating something, especially when writing sequels or remakes or stuff like that.
Every single professional writer in the world (in hollywood, in comics, in novels) knows everything about Reader Response Theory. That´s something you can´t control, its like saying "Im going to write something, and Im going to make it have a really fast paste..." Yes, now you sit down and try to do it, and its not that easy, or clear xDxD
I've always loved the Last Jedi, but your interpretation on Luke's death made me appreciate the movie even more.
I just discovered your channel and can't get enough. Well done!
This is a very interesting discussion! Thanks for this!
Just Write, the theory that the audience expectation influences their satisfaction is valid, obvious, and kinda the point of the backlash against TLJ. Think of it another way. You go into a restaurant and you order the breaded chicken. This is chicken you have ordered many times before and enjoyed. You've tried it many different times and even tried it by different chefs. One chef served it spicy with hot sauce, another served it traditional homestyle flavor, another served it as a sandwich with spinach and bacon, and every version you tried of the breaded chicken was a great tasting experience. Now they have a new chef who tells you he has created the very best version of your breaded chicken, ever. You order it, expecting, whatever you get to at least contain breaded chicken, but you get get served instead, a beef pot pie.
Now, this is a wonderful, aromatic and well made beef pot pie, but you don't, and never have liked beef pot pies. In fact, there is a popular beef pot pie restaurant down the street, that you never go to, because you do not like beef pot pies. They are just not to your taste, no matter how well made. Would you not complain that what you ordered and expected was not delivered? Would you not be confused by all the people telling you how wonderful the beef pie is, when your very complaint is that it IS NOT breaded chicken? You don't care how good a beef pie it is. You don't like beef pies.
Worse, the restaurant goes on to attack the customers, screaming about how you HATE beef, and all things beef. Of course you don't hate all things beef, you just don't like it in a pie, and it doesn't even matter because you ordered the chicken. It is bizzare in the extreme.
TLJ is a beef pot pie, that wasn't even cooked that well. It certainly looks good on the plate. How it looks seems to be all the people who like it can talk about, not the substance of how it was made, or even the flavor.
The star wars franchise is the breaded chicken we expected. We were ready for variations, surprises, new spins on the old recipe, new side dishes, and new ways of presenting it, but goddammit, we still expected it to at least be breaded chicken, like we have enjoyed for years and come back to time and time again over the last 40 years.
The Last Jedi, I am sure is a great feast for your eyes. You can analyse each frame of each shot, and its composition, but you cannot defend the fact that it is full of plot holes, doesn't hold up to the franchise it is supposed to be a part of, doesn't even make sense as a part of the rest of the franchise. Why did Luke make a map to find him if the Galaxy had need in TFA, for him to claim he didn't want to be found in TLJ? Makes no sense. That is just one plot hole of HUNDREDS. You cannot justify Canto Bight, or that nowhere storyline. Nothing other than how beautifully the movie looks and sounds can truly be defended.
Yes, if this movie was NOT a part of a franchise, and not supposed to be a seamless part of a 9 part story, I probably could have enjoyed it more as something separate, and its own thing. But that is NOT what we were sold, not what we expected, and NOT something we will be coming back for.
If you enjoy TLJ, that is fine, enjoy it. There are good points in it. Hell, I like a lot of terrible movies that everyone else hates. But, don't try to tell us our hatred and dislike of it isn't valid because our expectations were off. Our expectations were not the issue. What we were delivered WAS.
Sorry, TLDR. But I get it, you expected something and didn't get it. But understand that some innovations don't work immediately because people cling to a certain way they're accustomed to, why fix it if it's not broken, yeah? This video didn't say your expectations were off, he simply said your expectations were not met. He never said your'e wrong, he simply pointed out that you didn't get your breaded chicken the way you liked it.
Star Wars has become so big that it has evolved into something else other than your typical breaded chicken. That is why gourmet food isn't for everyone, just as film critics love it and the typical Star Wars fan don't. It's become breaded chicken w/ herbs & spices cooked w/ healthier ingredients that put it on another level, the problem is people right now still wants the usual greasy stuff.
The original trilogy aren't going away so you don't have to like the new ones. People hated the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi back then, but now they're classics. Some fans are warming up to episodes 1-3, pretty sure people will warm up to episodes 7-9, eventually.
@@reallynow5357 = The TLJ controversy is definitely about fans expecting a certain recipe. That's what branding is. That's what genre fiction is all about, and what franchises are all about. Just like buying Big Macs. McD's established a popular recipe complete with a marketing campaign to support it. (And add how much McD's works to make sure every McD product you buy is the same in every McD restaurant.) A customer has every right to expect the "Big Mac" logo to represent the well-established recipe inside. This is what happened with The Last Jedi. Rian Johnson wanted to make his own recipe and still use the well-established brand, logo, and marketing. When customers took a bit of what Johnson was cooking, there was a strong reaction. Some people didn't mind that they didn't get what they purchased because they liked the flavor. Others, however, resented the "bait and switch" (made worse by it being part 8 of a 9 part story). What this video didn't focus enough on is how TLJ is by no means a stand-alone product. Star Wars is the most established franchise in entertainment history. Every detail is well known. One cannot play fast and loose with its rules and avoid criticism. Just as with Big Macs, we can sing its recipe by heart.
But this video actually does argue we are wrong. It ends with his own argument of why TLJ is NOT a poorly made film, and tries to explain away everything people hate about it. To me, he basically contradicts himself. The first half sounded like a defense of all the criticisms, and then the second half sounded like he was telling us why we were wrong to criticize it.
Your analogy while interesting is ultimately flawed. Because underneath the last Jedi is still a Star Wars film. You may not want it to be, but it is.
If we look at it thematically. It has the basic themes of hope, fear, darkness etc. And of course it still has space battles and lightsabers. The basic ingredients still create a Star Wars film. Probably a better analogy would be the original trilogy being a slice of grilled chicken. And every subsequent film has added their own sides to it. Some where good others not so much. The last Jedi is another change however this time instead of putting the change on the side. They changed the chicken spices. The core is the same but everything else is different.
I agree Lucasfilm handling of the backlash was very poor and unprofessional. But if some people kept harassing my co workers even to this day. I’d likely lash out too.
Also most of the plot holes can either easily be explained or just requires a little imagination. For instance the map wasn’t to Luke specifically it was to the first Jedi temple.
Even I don’t think that the last Jedi is perfect. It has its flaws. However most ‘flaws’ I’ve seen is either highly subjective. (Most people I’ve spoken too actually like Luke’s arc, they just hated it happened to Luke). Or just plain stupid. (I know someone who hated the film for the sole reason that he hated the two new force powers).
I think the beautiful cinematography and good acting initially hides the massive flaws of TLJ hiding underneath. It feels like Rian was going for a postmodernist deconstruction of the hero's journey/grand narrative instead of telling a hero's journey. I don't think the rift this film has created will be healed with time, it's too deep.
Rian Johnson made the cinematic equivalent of the Piss Christ. But while normal people are revolted by it, some art critic will come along and give you a load of gobbledygook about how great it is, base on the special rules critics have created for themselves, which is only understood inside their infinitesimally small community.
Yes. Remember that old Western The Man who shot Liberty Valence.
I think Rian is going for a similar conflict here between Luke the man and Luke the legend.
Kettle Korn
He kind of had to do this because Luke already had his hero's journey in the first trilogy. Subverting it now is a good idea in principle but in practice Star Wars fans were bound to be offended because they were already invested in the legend of Luke.
Luke didn't need a heroes journey, he didn't even need to be the hero, he could have been the Obi Wan, old wizard trope character. But, round-head didn't need to shit all over him by making him an old, broken crumudgeon. He didn't need to do that. Either he wanted to, or he was ordered too. In either case he was like the afterbirth of the artist in Mel Brook's History Of The World Part I, the crtic. He just got up on a ledge and pissed all over Star Wars. It's like the fundemental misunderstanding of why people hated the end of Mass Effect 3. The defense was that people wanted a happily ever after. That is not correct. Some did, and others wanted at least the possibility of that happening because of the nature of the game. Others, like me, had no problem with Shepard dying. The ending was just fundementally awful. It was lazy and obviously thrown together with little thought into finishing the great story a deep way. So it goes with TLJ.
@@Rikalonius you realize the Luke Skywalker hiding himself is a JJ decision right?
"The highest, as the lowest, form of criticism is a mode of autobiography." - Oscar Wilde
I think it’s easy to say that Last Jedi is easily the best movie in this trilogy now that it’s wrapped up.
Give it 20 years (and probably 20 more Star Wars films!) and this will probably be looked back on as one of the better films in the series...
Although Rian Johnson is getting to do his own trilogy so maybe we'll get a bunch of new great ones!
TheOmegajuice true! I really wish he did the third film in this trilogy honestly. But yeah we saw time was kind to the prequels, unjustifiably in my opinion, so I’d like to think that this actually being a good film is going to get the praise it deserves down the line. Hopefully his new trilogy is just as weird and interesting as this one and pushes the franchise into new territory like this one did too.
I am afraid you might be correct. I have enjoyed TFA more every time I watch it, I think TLJ set us up for a grand conclusion, and I think that RoS will not improve with multiple viewings, because I think some of the plot devices that were employed will become more ridiculous every time you see them, not less. I think some of the bittersweet moments in the film will become trite and be exposed as overplayed hands. And the dropped threads JJ failed to capitalize on will become more obvious.
But I would like to be convinced otherwise, and only further viewings will tell that tale.
Divine Shadow yeah I agree about RoS. I did have fun watching it don’t get me wrong, to me Star Wars is like sex, like even if it ain’t all that great you can still find some enjoyment out of it (minus episodes 1 & 2) and I thought it was a fun movie. Hell of a mess and at times too pandering for my taste but it’s entertaining at the least.TFA was the great setup, TLJ was the one that got weird with the new material for the better in my opinion and RoS is the messy finale that has something for any kind of fan of the series can find something they like in it.
Honestly that’s not too bad of a trilogy to me, especially for the shitty hands they were dealt like Fishers passing, Trevows firing and the tight schedule between films.
@@theomegajuice8660 When is Rian Johnson's trilogy coming out?
The overuse of subversion in tlj doesnt serve the story: it is an intentional attempt to tool with the audience. I think this has been accurately described as arrogant and self-serving. There are also enormous pacing issues and the tone is wildly inconsistent throughout. This film is a beautifully shot mess.
Guy Slater Change the word “audience” to “Guy Slater.” It tooled you, not the average viewer.
did you watch the same video we did ?
SaveYourLifes who is "we"? Are you schizophrenic?
dxc i wasnt "tooled," friend. I was annoyed by the arrogance of someone writing a "personal" film using stories and characters created by other people...
The film has a lot of merit, but it is a wasted opportunity and will go down in history as the reason star wars films vacated cinemas and went straight to streaming platforms...
dxc "average": seems like an appropriate adjective for you, if a little generous. If you want to contest my opinion, I'm all for it. Convince me this film couldn't have been much better.
Great analysis there at the end. I, for one, loved The Last Jedi for the exact reason you pointed out there about Luke and his story. I think another problem that people have about the movie, even if they like liked it, is the poor development of the current trilogy's story arc. TLJ does a poor job of connecting with TFA and the original trilogy. TLJ basically serves as a second restart for Star Wars, when at this point we should be in the middle of resolving the trilogy.
Idk, just because it didn't give any obvious answers or confirm any weird Snoke theories, doesn't mean it mishandled the information it was given. At least for me, it gave us answers and questions that were totally emotionally satisfying. It built on everything it was given except maybe Maz.
The way you inserted that ad at the end was smooth lol
This is an awesome video (like always). Made me think about the movie again, an especially about the discussions I had about it.
Personally: I didn’t love the last Jedi; but I enjoyed it.
Awesome vid as per usual!! Noticed some people are upset that you did another video on Star Wars: The Last Jedi. No complaints from me.
When I was going through the criminal justice program, we spent almost an entire semester studying the O.J. Simpson trial. When it’s something that is so big and controversial, sometimes you need to slice down the movie/trial and say “Okay, for the next two weeks we’re going to be looking at the prosecution team and figure out what went wrong.” Or “This week we’re going to be looking at the police’s involvement in the case, evidence gathering, media presence, etc etc.”
Same with the movie. Whether you hated or loved the movie, I think there’s a lot more to cover, and so that’s why there will (and should) be several videos about it. Just my $0.02
Spencer Green Shielded from any criticism because of PC? Yeah, looking at it this way, TLJ really is like O.J. Simpson.
Very interesting video man, makes a lot of sense to me. There is so much meaning in what happens with Luke and you found something similar yet different to me. Great video I have subbed!
Please keep up the excellent work!
You
Are
AMAZING
Freaking breath of fresh air to literary analysis
You made me realize one important takeaway from the last lightsaber fight: Kylo thinks everything can be solved with violence, and Luke is there to teach him, and everyone else, that he's wrong; that violence is pointless and self-perpetuating, brilliantly illustrated by the fact that, in practice, Kylo is just swinging his lightsaber at nothing. He's trying to kill the idea of peace and humanity but an idea is indestructible. Not even an AT-AT can kill it.
Luke is there to prove that the war-cycle continues because people keep killing other people - an utterly self-defeating exercise. The solution to the Star Wars is not more Star Wars but some Star Peace for a change, and saving lives is much more important than killing one asshole so you can pat yourself in the back afterward. This movie is superb.
Great point, and followed by the next important scene: Ray moves rocks to save lives.
And then Luke dies, showing that Kylo Ren did kill him after all. I guess that means the idea of peace and humanity will destroy itself out of its own exhaustion?
Wow, deep, man, deep!
@@christophekeating21 No, it shows that the idea and myth of Luke is more powerful than the man himself. To quote Obi Wan "If you strike me down I will be come more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Luke dying helped rebirth the rebellion. He lit the fire that will burn the First Order to the ground.
@@SM4SHaZ Becoming one with the Force is what happens to jedi when they die. Some, like Obi-wan and Yoda, are able to retain their personality for a while. Luke might as well, but he did in fact die, and, at least "from a certain point of view," Kylo Ren killed him (not the idea of peace.)
Except Luke's "non-violence" solved nothing. It didnt endd the conflict, it didnt put a stop to the war, it merely postponed for the couple of days till his allies regroup and strike back. The war still continues and he relies on the people he saved, the Resistance, to commit violence, to kill the First Order in order to actually restore peace.
The theme you praise is hollow.
That ending about "new hope" was beautiful, mygod I love this channel
Amazing analysis. Thanks so much for teaching us this lot about this wonderful art
Brilliant! Thank you so much! I love your videos. I feel like I learn so much just from watching them.
The problem is that Luke before this movie never would have made the mistake that led to all this in the first place. If anything, his issue is hopeless optimism, not the attempted murder of his nephew/student. By the end of Return of the Jedi, he'd managed to help redeem freaking Darth Vader. The idea that Luke would even consider giving up on one of his students before they had done ANYTHING to deserve it is character assassination, plain and simple. Without this bit of information, yes, his arc in TLJ makes a lot of sense. Take the movie on its own and his arc is great, and that one moment DOES have fantastic synergy with the original Star Wars. But that's a surface level homage at best that completely ignores the meat of basically the entirety of Luke's character before TLJ, which has been a common trend with Disney's Star Wars films.
It's not character assassination. What does Kylo Ren do *immediately* after waking up and realizing what's going on? He kills the entirety of Luke's Jedi school. Full of *children*. *Kylo Ren murders children*. That is some Dark shit right there, and that's exactly what Luke would've seen. Ben Solo was most likely pretty gone by that point in time, and he's Luke's nephew, /and/ he was startled. I mean, the severity of must've been out of left-field like Luke looks into the Force and is like "holy /shit/ what the fUCK".
Comparing Luke "redeeming" Darth Vader (who made his own decisions and the integral part of a redemption is the agency of the one being redeemed), a man that was at the end of a 3-movie character arc---and a redemption arc no less---to Kylo Ren who was at the /beginning/ of his character arc is a false analogy. Anakin Skywalker, as he murders children in RotS, is not redeemable. He has just fallen to the Dark Side. Darth Vader, *decades later*, is redeemable after a lot of hard truths and people proving him wrong, and the discovery of a family he didn't know existed.
If anything, Luke made the same mistake that Obi-Wan made. He ignored the warning signs that must've been there (though we didn't see them for Kylo because of run time) until the end-result stared him in the face on the wrong end of a lightsaber.
I found it a brilliant character arc, and a great way to expand upon Luke's character.
Amber Dent Oh yeah, by the way, after two fucking movies I'm happy to know I still have no fucking clue whatever made Kylo into such an asshole. He always has this emo face on him, stutters, is conflicted and yet he kills children. Off-screen of course which makes the incoherency even more blatant.
yarpen26 Well therein lies the real problem with the trilogy, imo. It's rushed af. Everything about TFA and TLJ is so, so rushed. We don't get to see Ben Solo as a child, or any reason he turns to the Dark Side in the first place, and there's nothing about Luke in the interim. While I find it believable, it still should've been shown or alluded to by more than just Luke.
(I've seen theories that Snoke purposefully drove Ben to the Dark Side, but that makes it even more egregious that they killed Snoke off without any backstory, especially when revenge could've been cathartic had the audience been informed. Plus, Anakin had something Palpatine could twist, so what was wrong with Ben?)
TLJ, in my opinion, is entertaining and a decent movie. However, while what it shows us is well-done (again imo), it doesn't actually show us a lot. (To be fair, neither did TFA.)
Amber Dent Words can't describe how utterly botched all character and world building is in these new movies. I wrote better fan fiction when I was in junior high.
Fortnite is CANCER Yeah he did, but Darth Vader had just finished his 3 movie redemption arc. Had Luke been present when Anakin first fell in RotS, I highly doubt Luke would've been like "Oh wow you're still a good guy". And for that matter, Luke wasn't around when Anakin fell, and wasn't alive during the Clone Wars. So you can't tell me that Luke had all the context. Had Vader lived and gotten off the Death Star, the most likely scenario is Vader being tried and executed for war crimes. (Or just straight up murder and genocide.) Which is understandable because duh.
What I'm telling you is, this is very comparable to the position Obi-Wan was in with Anakin in RotS. It isn't very comparable to Vader in RotJ.
I'm not saying there isn't _any_ subjectivity in disliking The Last Jedi, but there's a lot of more objective features of good writing that are violated here; e.g. failing the Little Kid Test, and characters acting more like plot contrivances than real people.
One of the biggest complaints is that Luke Skywalker was behaving completely out of character for sake of the plot, which is generally bad writing. Look at this way: if the next Harry Potter film had Harry sell his friends and family for drinking money with no explanation for why he's acting so against what defined his character, this wouldn't be taken very well.
Holdo told nobody the plan, which didn't make any sense. I know in one earlier video the explanation is that Holdo thought Poe was reckless. Reckless in what way? Reckless like Poe creating a mutiny against Holdo because they all seemed doomed because Holdo didn't tell Poe what the plan was? Holdo believing Poe to be reckless is a reason _for_ telling Poe the plan, not a reason against it (as the movie proved).
For why The Last Jedi is objectively bad: ua-cam.com/video/fyZtylDq2Zw/v-deo.html (I don't agree with everything he says, but a lot of it seems right to me.)
Maverick Christian objectivity is subjective
Maverick Christian
Yes. It's that old irritating trick familiar from bad t.v. drama where people withhold information from each other simply to set up artificial conflict and fill up some time.
Right? One accident and she bops her head, and then no one knows her plan. Which is perhaps for the best, as it did end up with almost everyone dead instead of using the shuttles Finn did to ferry people off the entire time
Love your videos! As an aspiring author, they have given me so much inspiration and information. Thanks! Subscribed!
lol. good one
Loved this. Cracking out that old theory book, which I need to do more often. I really appreciated the part about Luke that you included. Opened my eyes.
I'm subscribing to this channel just because of that final segue.
I had no problem with how Luke went out. However, I feel it would’ve been better if it had been in Ep. 9, as the grand finale of his story amidst the grand finale of the trilogy.
Jimmy Seaver I feel the same way, but depending on how Hamill feels about coming back, that is unless he's required, TLJ doesn't have to be the last we see of him. Just like Obi-Wan, we could easily see him around as a Force Ghost. That has a whole lot more impact now because we now know that Force ghosts are not only capable of manifesting as physical beings (Yoda physically whacked Luke on the head), but because they are one with the Force, they have access to crazy powerful Force abilities without restriction (Yoda summoned lightning). Will he be heavily involved? I don't know. I think he will at least play some kind of role, but he is potentially capable of doing a lot more now than he could if he weren't "dead".
Nah, it's not his trilogy.
Shouldn't the grand finale be for the main characters?
a) it's not Luke's story anymore b) Luke wasn't even in the prequels so it wouldn't make sense to treat the entire saga as Luke's story.
Jimmy Seaver before Carrie's death, each episode was supposed to center around one of the original main characters, (in order: Han, Luke, Leia), so this was always going to be Luke's episode.
Your ad transitions are just tooo smooth, man.
What's the music you used at 8:48? It sounds familiar, but I can't put my finger on it.
Please tell me.
'Luke gave what he always was meant to provide, a new hope"
Damm, I love this movie even more now. When you said it I got goosebumps
This is such an insanely well made video dude! Appreciate the effort, turned out amazing.
no it is crap
I think it was a little to smarty for some people ^^^
Isn't UA-cam just grand?
@Havoc Steel why the fuck would he want to prop up people he disagrees with?
If you made a video about how much you hated TLJ, you wouldn't be pinning comments by other people who loved it and told you that you were wrong. FFS
Beautiful man. I love your work. I know it's mostly research but it's still your work.
Furthermore, it truly helps me in my career path. I won't share what it is but it is enlightening information (+)
Thank you for articulating for me what I felt but couldn't fully explain.
“Sometimes you have to saves the ones you love” 😂
The problem with the Last Jedi is that it went for a radical (in your face ) departure of the original/established themes, only to have in the end, go right back to status quo. It felt like the studio jumped in and pulled it back. It basically, rode down the middle opposing lanes of a highway and got hit both ways. Pick a lane.
Before we point at the audience, it should mention that the studio and the very films themselves have laid a rigid structure of the of this unwavering narrative norms in the zeighist. So, I for one have a problem when the studio, chastise the fan base, only to go right back to ingrain the same painful structure in the next generation. For an example of this, see Solo.
TriColoredTiger
Exactly right I would say.
I enjoy your vids, this one was great, keep up the good work!
Oh my god stoooooop I'm getting goosebumps. Thank you so much for your videos!
Thank you for making this video and voicing the opinion of so many!
The opinion of so many who don't understand the difference between good and bad writing...
*uses skillshare*
*becomes a jedi*
*Force ghosts across space*
*dies*
It's great how interesting these breakdowns sound and really help improve the overall perception of the film - but definitely from the filmmakers it had to be conveyea d in a more refined manner. That New Hope parallel is a great catch and I think its also a good area to discuss for relatability.
The scene from A New Hope was what establishes the audience's connection with Luke, as you mentioned. It is about despair and a sense of feeling trapped and shackled - longing for a sense of freedom. This is an emotion which a child or a young adult would highly relate to especially someone living at home with their parents. As you described the fantasy of Star Wars, this is the moment which puts the audience in that position as sharing Luke's perspective. From here on out as Luke goes out on his adventure - making friends, training under masters, saving his friends and finally confronting his father/antagonist - The audience feels connected and emotionally invested in his progress and growth.
The scene in the Last Jedi is something which the video above did a GREAT job explaining the completion of Luke's arc. However, I think the reason why it was criticized - not only for Luke's death- but also the context. The completion feels much more satisfying to the person who actually saw the scene from the original but now again this person is in Luke's shoes and the fading away , I think, serves to some extent to bring on a sense of mortality or irrelevance. Yes their is redemption, in a way.
In my thinking, there are three routes which would have prompted a more positive response from the audience - (1) Redemption - Yes Luke comes out and is here to face Kylo and the First Order all by himself - audience gasping in surprise and smiles start to crack on people's face. This is what they were waiting for - The hero is back after all his failures and guilt. Yes he walked out from the darkness- but I would say the apparition would have been fine - had he not faded away. Even a cut to that ending scene would suffice - he doesn't need to fight the battles all the time anymore but he is made his journey back and has overcome his darkneep ss. The following films could use him or do away with him but as a character - and the viewers that put themselves in his shoes when they saw A New Hope - they are redeemed or atleast can aspire to redeem themselves without it leading straight to mortality.
(2) Passing the torch. Lets say we keep all other plot points intact but add in just one extra scene between Luke and Rey - perhaps, even before he fades. Just either appearing to her or exchanging a glance. There would be multiple ways to execute this but this sentiment would also add a level of closure to the character. The audience can now let Luke's story wrap up as their own personal resonance continues with Rey. Of course, we all know that Rey is this generation's Luke right down to the clothes , the backstory, and the Jedi mantle. However, I still think a scene like that would be powerful and would be a better accepted end for the character.
(3) Going out in a blaze of glory - as mentioned in the video! Of course, this takes the level of complexity out but just as the Darth Vader scene at the end of Rogue One got audiences sitting up in their seats - actually letting Luke physically complete the battle would added a highly emotional response from the audiences. If we don't want to show Luke losing - you can opt for an Obi Wan Kenobi type self-sacrificial hit once the Rebels were safe. It would become a not so subtle callback I agree - but then again he would be going out as one of his mentors had and would suit the narrative of tradition and how Rey will continue the Jedi ways.
Just a few thoughts on this whole thing.
The movie was branded as "Star Wars" and marketed as a sequel to The Force Awakens. Fans are not unreasonable to expect a degree of consistency with material released over the past 40+ years and continuity with its trilogy predecessor.
That is sort of the point of the video; hardcore Star Wars fans critiqued the movie from the POV of how well it adhered to the Star Wars formula. I personally was getting tired of the formula and wanted a movie that could deepen the themes of Star Wars and shake things up, bc force awakens didn’t do much for me, as fun as it was. That’s why I liked last Jedi so much.
Like I like the original trilogy and care about it, but in the trump era I wanted something with more depth that could make the original mean more. I have always felt that this has made the original trilogy more meaningful, because this movie explains why it means so much to us and why it was so important. But it also shows it’s flaws and how we could build a more meaningful world. It was exactly what I was looking for from a trump era Star Wars movie
I really liked the Last Jedi after the first viewing and was disapointed upon learning that everyone around consider it like REALLY bad Star Wars. Thanks to both your videos on the subject, I like it even more, especially after your explanation on Luke's "rebirth" or the metaphor on overcoming depression. Thank you! :) Love your work!
I can see why people dont like this movie, but I love it. I love it for alot of reasons but when the story ended, my god, was I excited about where they could go next )and jesus christ did they immediately horrifically crash that car....). The Finn and Rose story is really bad. Everything else is fantastic. There is more story and character in Rose's sister's brief screen time than all of Rise of Skywalker... Everything around Rey and Kylo's moment with the Supreme Leader was great. I loved that Luke was destroyed and bitter. I hate how everyone says that not his character. The man idolized the Jedi, saw its failures but was able to use them to overcame the worst power in the galaxy. He then tried to rebuild the thing he loved, and failed so badly, he nearly killed his nephew. Of course he would give up and fuck off to just exist. That makes complete sense to me. Its amazing. I love the tease of Rey's dilemma, which I think is actually so much better than Luke's dilemma. I love how hopeless the Rebels are. Its fantastic.
Thanks for this video. It completely sums my feelings about Luke in the movie.
That ending with "...a new hope." brought tears to my eyes. Well done
What a great video ,Just Write, I've loved your videos recently and im totally subscribed!
If child slavery is supposed to be a theme of the film, why do our 'heroes' leave the child slaves behind?
chaosmos24
Tough love?
because saving the space puppies was more important.
Qui gon said that freeing slaves wasnt their job in TPM.
Who said it was the theme? Do you even know what movie themes are? A simple search will help you.
I said 'a' theme, not 'the' theme. I was also responding to comments made in the video where child slavery is referenced as something of at least minimal significance in the film.
You should do an episode on Sherlock.
AMAZING video. Thanks for doing it!
It was like: every scene was well done, but the whole story was just confounding
1:16 Did Yoda write that sentence?
I absolutely loved your interpretation of Luke's story btw. Great stuff.
:)
Umbrella Man
Agreed. The fans who claimed that the film destroyed Luke's character had probably checked out before the end since he did finally perform the heroic role expected of him.
Still didn't like the film very much though.
This is not an interpretation. This is exactly what Rian Johnson wanted to convey.
My issue was that the new characters lacked growth except for Kylo. I felt like I knew less about Rey then what I learned in the first movie
Watch his video about 7 questions
What I appreciate about this movie is that, 9 was not good, so if I stopped at eight. They tied up many things with a nice bow, while still leaving things open for how you would like the saga to end.
This is dope. Thanks for this video!
Im enjoying the blowback in the comments. There seems to be a large contingent of fan critics who think that because their own expectations and personal context gets intonthe mix with their critical analysis that... Theyre less right.
Because i see a lot of anti-TLJ criticism usually couched in being "objective". And that this video completely undercuts that concept to remind people.. No. You cant be objective. No one can. Who you are shapes a lot of your opinions.
Regardless
Cue the angry responses. Again, its fascinating.
^ THIS. PREACH.
I wonder if there's a connection between audience members who consider their own opinions as objective hating a film that is very much about different perspectives, reconciling ones' flaws, self-criticism and growth
We have standards for judging aspects of media. Writing, plot, pacing, dialogue, music, framing, all that stuff.
You literally go to school to learn these things. There’s a reason we have a distinction between good and bad directors/films.
So, yes, there is a fairly objective way to judge things that most people agree upon, although in your own review, you also have to acknowledge your own biases and POV for the more subjective parts of media.
@@zachanikwano If you actually went to art school you'd find out that people continuously break established "good" ways to do things in order to make "good art".
"School = objective" carries its own implicit biases that aren't even correct. Even the professionals and experts often disagree many times on some foundational things regarding art.
The only thing you can do is have your own standards and judge it on that, which is fine. Everyone should do this. But you -cannot- claim objectivity. It's a pipe dream.
I got chills when you sad "A new hope" Т_т
fucking why? A new hope was 50 years ago and has been throttled and strangled to death by disney to the point that the word doesn't mean anything. GTFO poser
@@will_of_europa Holy fuck get a fucking life. Just because somebody enjoy a film does not mean you can go around and insult them
@@thinhvo3893 Actually, me existing means I CAN go around insulting whomever I please. You are not entitled to my free will.
@@will_of_europa Buddy this is not question of free will. Nobody say you are not allowed to do shit by law. People here are calling you an asshole. Why are you bringing up strawman argument
I didn't get a lot out of the film, but your Skillshare spot at the end was, shall we say... diegetic?
I have used the phrase "disrespecting the franchise" in different word. Not for the reasons he pointed out. But for taking the rules star wars had in place and throwing them out. In order to safely jump into hyperspace without ending up in the center of a planet you need to plot a course. And you brought up in one of these videos that Holdo not letting Poe know the plan was fine but isn't it a leaders responsibility to come up with a plan and communicate it with everyone else. According to Poe she doesn't have a plan, they are running out of fuel, and everyone he cares about is going to die unless he does something.